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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hey everybody. How's it going. That's good, it's good.

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Speaker 1: What are you asking me for them? Well? You, I

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Speaker 1: guess because they can't answer. Oh well, I am doing

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Speaker 1: pretty well. That's good today. Yeah, yesterday was rough. Yesterday

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Speaker 1: first hangover I've had since eighteen maybe seventeen possibly, is

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Speaker 1: that true? I mean yeah, I mean I almost never

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Speaker 1: drink enough for a hangover. I'm not I'm not a

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Speaker 1: big drinker generally speaking, um, certainly not to that extent.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to take care of myself. I'm

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Speaker 1: over thirty. Yeah, we'll just leave it at that. But yeah.

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Speaker 1: Then we went to our friends Stephanie's birthday party, um

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Speaker 1: at a bar owned by a couple of our friends,

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Speaker 1: a brother sister team. Yeah, if you're in Atlanta, it's

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Speaker 1: in Kirkwood. It's called Bob and Harriet's Home Bar. And

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Speaker 1: it's awesome. They're the best ever. And yeah, they proved

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Speaker 1: it by giving us too many free shots. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: if you can call that a shot ted, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to you. Who comes in like, oh yeah, everybody gets

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Speaker 1: a shot at tequila and he slams down like a

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Speaker 1: sixteen ounce thermos of altos and I'm just like, sure,

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Speaker 1: shots a shot, chug, chug, chug. Well, and it was

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Speaker 1: a blast, a really good time. But yeah, but the

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Speaker 1: next day was definitely a day. Yeah, I've forgotten about

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Speaker 1: two grown people, yes, who don't drink much. Well, very

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Speaker 1: excited to have you all this week. It's uh, it's Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: It's American Thanksgiving. I hope everybody's getting to spend some

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Speaker 1: time with people they are thankful to be associated with,

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Speaker 1: whoever that may be. But yeah, hopefully everybody has an

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Speaker 1: awesome holiday weekend planned whatever your traditions are. Um, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we want to spend I guess our first Thanksgiving episodes, Um,

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Speaker 1: not on the first Thanksgiving, but rather tackling that famous

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Speaker 1: American love story, John Smith and pocahont Is. According to

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Speaker 1: the American Public School System and or Disney, John Smith

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Speaker 1: was an handsome, intrepid explorer who arrived on the shores

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Speaker 1: of Virginia hoping to find riches and a home in

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Speaker 1: the New World. Pocontes was a young, beautiful native princess

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Speaker 1: who became fascinated with the white foreigners. When her chieftain

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Speaker 1: father Powe Hotton, captured John Smith and ordered him executed,

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Speaker 1: pocahon is flowing herself and his body, saying Daddy, I

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Speaker 1: love him, And because she was powe Hatton's favorite, he

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Speaker 1: acquiesced and then everything was fine until the trail of tears.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm pretty sure that's how it goes public

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Speaker 1: education from the Texas Instruments. Well, it turns out that

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Speaker 1: you know, that story is not so much true. O'cahons

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Speaker 1: was actually just a child of ten or eleven when

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Speaker 1: John Smith met her, and they never even had a romance.

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Speaker 1: Pow Hotton didn't try to kill John Smith, and if

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Speaker 1: he had, Pocahontas wouldn't have been there. During her life

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Speaker 1: and in death, Pocahontas became more of a piece of

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Speaker 1: propaganda than an actual woman with agency. So we figured

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Speaker 1: we get together here and across two episodes we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about the complicated and true story of Pocahontas.

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Speaker 1: So buckle your steep oat, flash pilgrim hats, and can

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Speaker 1: get ready for a while ride through colonial America. Hey,

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Speaker 1: their friends come listen. Well, Elia and Diana got some

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Speaker 1: stories to tell. There's no matchmaking, no romantic tips. It's

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Speaker 1: just about ridiculous relationships. A lover might be any type

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Speaker 1: of person at all, and abstract concept on a concrete wall.

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Speaker 1: But if there's a story were the second glance, we'll

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Speaker 1: show ridiculous Rolettance, a production of iHeart Radio. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: we we tapped quite a few sources to try and

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Speaker 1: put this whole story together. But for the Indigenous side

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Speaker 1: of the story, we pulled from a book called The

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Speaker 1: True Story of Pocahontas, The Other Side of History by

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Speaker 1: Dr Lynwood, Little Bear Costello and Angela L. Daniel silver Star. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is based on the Sacred Matta Pony oral history

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Speaker 1: passed down from Pocahonas relatives through the generations, and we

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Speaker 1: want to call out this source specifically because it really

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Speaker 1: seems to be the only source for an indigenous side

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Speaker 1: of this story, but it is also disputed. Many scholars

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Speaker 1: who study Native American history refused to comment on it,

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Speaker 1: But you know, it feels wrong to dismiss it completely

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Speaker 1: because there is a lot of information that even fills

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Speaker 1: in some of the gaps here. So as we go

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Speaker 1: through the episode, we're going to point out where these

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Speaker 1: stories really diverge and how differently the events were seen

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Speaker 1: or recorded depending on which side you're standing on, or

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Speaker 1: whose perspective you're looking at. Yeah, so we may not

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Speaker 1: know by the end of these episodes the full exact

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Speaker 1: truth of exactly what went down with Pocahonus, but challenge there.

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Speaker 1: I think by the end of these two episodes, we

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Speaker 1: Diane and I will definitively decide the true story of Poke. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna heard it here. First, we're going to decide

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Speaker 1: which facts are true and which facts are not true.

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Speaker 1: We spent a whole day and a half researching these

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Speaker 1: and we we were pretty confident that we have the answers.

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Speaker 1: We figured it out. But it is kind of interesting

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Speaker 1: to just see it that way. Just says how differently

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Speaker 1: people write things down, or how differently they see an event,

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Speaker 1: or how differently they want to frame it for later generation.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, all that is also historically valuable.

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Speaker 1: So you have learned and talked about many times on

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Speaker 1: this show that the shaping of history is a cultural

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Speaker 1: tool that people use in their favor very often, whether

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Speaker 1: you're disgracing a single person that you just didn't like,

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Speaker 1: or a leader that was terrible that you're just like

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Speaker 1: make up some horrible stories about, or you were for

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Speaker 1: a random example, a colonizing country that came in and

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Speaker 1: took a bunch of land from other people. You might

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Speaker 1: present that story a little differently than it really happened.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, just something to keep in mind as we chat.

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Speaker 1: But let's begin. So pow Hotton was the paramount chief

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Speaker 1: of Senacomico, which is now called Virginia, and this was

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Speaker 1: an alliance of Algonquin speaking tribes. When pow Hotton came

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Speaker 1: into power, he inherited control over the course six tribes,

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Speaker 1: which were the pow Hottan tribe, the NaNs, the Mattaponys,

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Speaker 1: the Monkeys, the Arahtecs, and the Apatomax. And through a

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Speaker 1: combination of force and diplomacy, by sixteen oh seven, Santacomico

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Speaker 1: had grown to about twenty eight to maybe thirty two

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Speaker 1: lesser chiefdoms and tribes, all of whom paid tribute to

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Speaker 1: pow Hotton. So he, you know, throughout his lifetime was

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Speaker 1: very good at creating an nation around him of what

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Speaker 1: used to not be one, you know, And each tribe

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Speaker 1: had its own chief or where all wants who was

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Speaker 1: on powe Hotton's council and advised him, and pow Hotton

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Speaker 1: would also marry women from each of the tribes, because yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've seen before. Easy way to make someone your friend

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Speaker 1: is to make them in your family. I guess leaders

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Speaker 1: love marrying women from far off tribes to be like,

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Speaker 1: now see, now I married your daughter. That means our

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Speaker 1: people and your people are basically married. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: you have to do everything. I'd say, we're good now,

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Speaker 1: and you can just hope that I like her enough

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Speaker 1: to take care of you for her. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit like a kind of some of the

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Speaker 1: harems we've covered maybe in your but the difference being

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Speaker 1: that with Powe Hotton, the he would marry the woman

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Speaker 1: from the tribe, they would come live with him in

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Speaker 1: his capital city until she had a child, and then

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Speaker 1: the child and mother would go back to the mother's

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Speaker 1: tribe until the kid was weaned, and then the kid

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Speaker 1: would return to Powhatton's capital to live in his household.

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Speaker 1: And that is when it basically meant the wife was

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Speaker 1: free to remarry, so she didn't have to stay as

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Speaker 1: like part of a harem her whole life and all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. Like she was He's like basically like, we

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Speaker 1: have connections. Now we're good. You can go back home

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Speaker 1: and do live your life as you see fit. It

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Speaker 1: was just basically incubating a child in you essentially just

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Speaker 1: a little incubator. But you know what, although I'll say,

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Speaker 1: of all the history where people do that, we're just like,

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Speaker 1: I'm marrying you to just for the sole purpose of

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Speaker 1: creating a child that unites our tribes. At least he did, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, say, all right, go to live your life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lock you up in a tower. Yeah

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Speaker 1: it sounds better. Like at least he's like, I know

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Speaker 1: you don't love me and I don't love you, but

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Speaker 1: you don't have to be miserable our whole lives. Go

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Speaker 1: out and go please fall in love. I want you

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Speaker 1: to have more children and for your tribe or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Being honest, you know that, Like, look, we both know

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Speaker 1: what we're doing here exactly right. But we'll have a

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Speaker 1: lame with with this kid and it'll be great. I

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Speaker 1: can get down with that, I should say I can

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Speaker 1: get down with that if they were willing, well yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would hope. So yeah, And we don't know. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to speculate as to you know, what the

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Speaker 1: nature of these marriages was, but just in general, it

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Speaker 1: sounds fair, it sounds fine. As long as all participants

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Speaker 1: were down. We're down. Yeah, so yeah. According to the

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Speaker 1: other side of history, his wife of choice, his first

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Speaker 1: and favorite wife, the wife that he stayed married to

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Speaker 1: for a long time. Her name was Pokehontas, and they

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Speaker 1: had several children together, but she died while giving birth

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Speaker 1: to pow Hatton's daughter in fifteen nineties six. They named

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Speaker 1: the baby Mattawaka, but pow Hotton called her Pokehontas, which

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Speaker 1: translates to playful one, and he called her that after

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Speaker 1: her mother, and she quickly became his favorite child because

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Speaker 1: she reminded him so much of his departed wife that

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Speaker 1: he loved so much. They were very similar in looks

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Speaker 1: and in personality, so he was like, this, this is

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Speaker 1: my kid right here. So she was sent to the

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Speaker 1: Matta Ponies to be weaned by her mother's relatives, but

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Speaker 1: once she was old enough to walk and eat solid food,

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Speaker 1: as was tradition, she went back to where with Comaco

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Speaker 1: Powhattan's capital to join her father. Everyone worked in the tribe,

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Speaker 1: even Potton Polcahontas would have learned the women's work, which

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Speaker 1: was definitely separate from the men's work, but it was

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Speaker 1: not looked down on. You know, all this work was

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Speaker 1: essential for everyone in society. Women built the houses, They

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Speaker 1: did all the planting and the harvesting. They did the cooking.

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Speaker 1: They collected water for cooking and drinking. They collected firewood

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Speaker 1: and maintained the fires. They wove mats, they made baskets,

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Speaker 1: they made pots, utensils, and platters. They were also the

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Speaker 1: barbers for the men, and they would process the meat

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Speaker 1: that the men brought home and tan the hides and

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Speaker 1: make clothing. Pocahunas also would have learned how to identify

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Speaker 1: and gather edible plants in all seasons. I mean, what

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Speaker 1: a workload. Yeah, girls get it done, you know. That

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Speaker 1: was that was their slogan. They it around with their

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Speaker 1: arms akimbo for a nice photo shot. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: kind of liked that. They were like, we yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: women's work and there's men's work, but no work was

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Speaker 1: better than other work. It was just like, obviously, this

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Speaker 1: work is not less than I'd like to eat food

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Speaker 1: and like live in a nice house when mat on

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Speaker 1: the floor and whatever. Like, how weird to look down

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Speaker 1: on a gender's work, right anyway, I go to an

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Speaker 1: office and jibber jabber with other men all day. But

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Speaker 1: you just cook food that I can eat when I

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Speaker 1: got home for sustenance. You just make the house nice

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Speaker 1: or whatever, which is of course in this household very

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Speaker 1: much not the case. Diana works probably more hours than

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Speaker 1: I do, and I cook food for our substance, and

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Speaker 1: neither of us keeps the house clean exactly, very much

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Speaker 1: a gender equality going around here. We both live in Squalor.

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Speaker 1: By sixteen o seven, when poke Honus was ten or eleven,

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Speaker 1: plenty of tribes had already been dealing with Europeans. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Spain had established itself pretty comfortably in Florida and the Southwest,

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Speaker 1: and they were growing tobacco. France had established trade post

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Speaker 1: through Maine, Massachusetts, and upstate New York, but England only

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Speaker 1: had its vague claim on Virginia, and it's fishing and

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Speaker 1: trading interests there culminated in like semi permanent encampments in

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Speaker 1: the Chesapeake region, so it wasn't anything spectacular going on there.

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Speaker 1: In five they tried to establish a more permanent solution

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Speaker 1: with the Colony of Roanoke, but that ill fated colony

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Speaker 1: did not farewell. Eventually every colonists disappeared, leaving a mysterious

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Speaker 1: encryption on a nearby tree. Croatoan and that's the name

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Speaker 1: of the nearby island where the crow a Toone tribe lived.

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Speaker 1: So there are tons of theories about what happened to

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Speaker 1: the Roano colonists. All right, Um, maybe the crow Tones

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Speaker 1: killed everyone, right, Or maybe the colonists moved to the

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Speaker 1: island and integrated into the tribe, right. Or maybe the

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Speaker 1: colonists all died from starvation or disease. That's pretty a

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Speaker 1: normal thing to happen to colonists, right. It's it's possible

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Speaker 1: that the colonists tried to leave on a ship and

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Speaker 1: they got swept away in a storm, never to be

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Speaker 1: heard from again. A lot of theories, a lot of theories.

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Speaker 1: But now I heard I heard that it's possible that

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Speaker 1: a time lord showed up in a phone booth and

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Speaker 1: warned them all of some impending do took the two

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Speaker 1: most camera friendly and energetic people with him, went on

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Speaker 1: an adventure across basin time. Where's the episode of Doctor

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Speaker 1: who were? Virginia dares his companion and she's like one

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Speaker 1: years old and he's like Toddler. I haven't seen every

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Speaker 1: episode that might exist. I think that somebody let us

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Speaker 1: know if Tom Baker ever grabbed up Virginia Dare. But yeah, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: no one knows definitively exactly what happened into these colonists.

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Speaker 1: Um In, some archaeologists found a map and unearthed some

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Speaker 1: artifacts and ceramics at a spot fifty miles west of

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Speaker 1: Roanoke that they believe was a second fort. So they're

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Speaker 1: kind of like, we think we might have solved this mystery.

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Speaker 1: The colonists just moved to this other spot and lived

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Speaker 1: there for a while. They're like, wow, this whole colony disappeared,

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Speaker 1: and then one day someone turned around and was like,

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Speaker 1: oh wait, no, it's over there. We didn't try to

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Speaker 1: go like a few feet up river and see if

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Speaker 1: anything whatever. But but yeah, we we don't know for

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Speaker 1: sure that you know, they haven't there, you know, scientifically

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Speaker 1: Pear reviews. That is hot, hot new research, hot archaeologically

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Speaker 1: from right here, from ridiculous romance. You heard it here first,

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Speaker 1: unless you heard it before, in which case you're hearing

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Speaker 1: it here like third or fourth probably. Um So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're not sure. We'll see how that solve pans out.

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Speaker 1: But essentially the mystery of the missing colonists just meant

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Speaker 1: that by sixteen o six not a single English settler

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Speaker 1: occupied the New World. Well, that sounds like curtains for England.

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Speaker 1: No uh, no English speaking people in the colony, fully

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Speaker 1: Spanish and French colony. Well, we'll have to see how

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Speaker 1: that pans out. Um. England's confidence was boosted after they

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Speaker 1: defeated the Spanish Armada in sixteen four and King James

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Speaker 1: was able to negotiate sort of an uneasy piece with Spain,

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Speaker 1: and then merchants began to form joint partnerships to fund voyages,

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Speaker 1: and they established the Virginia Company. The time was ripe

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Speaker 1: to try again, so they around it up everything they needed.

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Speaker 1: They got three ships with a hundred and five colonists

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Speaker 1: and in sixteen o six England shipped them off to

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Speaker 1: the New World, or around two and one of the

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Speaker 1: guys on board was a fellow named John Smith. This

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Speaker 1: guy was twenty seven whole, He was a commoner, and

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Speaker 1: he was an adventurer who had already been on three continents.

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Speaker 1: He's he's given us real strong braun from Game of Thrones.

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Speaker 1: Vibes kind of real tough guy, mercenary, quick thinker, loyal

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Speaker 1: to no one, you know, just doing doing the job,

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Speaker 1: doing it well, and and really looking out for himself

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Speaker 1: first and foremost. Yeah, John was a braggart. He was bombastic.

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Speaker 1: He often exaggerated his accomplishments or outright lied about them.

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Speaker 1: He had set sail at sixteen when his father died,

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Speaker 1: and he became a pirate and a mercenary soldier and

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Speaker 1: an artillery expert. In Hungary, he fought three consecutive duels

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Speaker 1: with three Ottoman challengers, and he decapitated each of them.

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Speaker 1: This caused the Hungarians to name him Prince of Transylvania

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Speaker 1: and give him a coat of arms adorned with three

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Speaker 1: turks heads. I just think of that scene in Game

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Speaker 1: of Thrones when Braun fights the guy like you've didn't

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Speaker 1: fight with honor, and he's like, well that guy did, like,

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Speaker 1: but I'm alive. That's I think John Smith probably said

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Speaker 1: something something, something witty like that, you know. Soon after,

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Speaker 1: in six two, he was wounded and captured by Crimean

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Speaker 1: tartars and sold into slavery in Constantinople. But he claimed

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Speaker 1: this fair mistress fell in love with him, and he

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Speaker 1: had a great time with her until she sent him

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Speaker 1: to serve her brother in Tartary, who made John into

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Speaker 1: a degradated field hand. He was being abused in the

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Speaker 1: field one day when he was just like, you know

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Speaker 1: what this, and he beat his master's brains out with

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Speaker 1: a threshing bat. He stole his clothes and his horse

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Speaker 1: and got out of there. Speculation stations. Do you imagine

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Speaker 1: that John Smith was like beating up the field like

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Speaker 1: the overseer or whatever and all every he couldn't have

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Speaker 1: been alone? Like do you think all the other slaves

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Speaker 1: were like when do we like, did they also leave

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Speaker 1: with him? I'm curi is. Yeah. Then he wandered through Muscovy,

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Speaker 1: the Baltic and through the Holy Roman Empire before ending

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Speaker 1: up on a pirate ship off the Barbary coast. And

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Speaker 1: when he got back to England in sixteen o six,

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Speaker 1: he got involved in the Virginia Company's plan to establish

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Speaker 1: the Jamestown Colony. This was not an easy journey that

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Speaker 1: the colonists took from England to Virginia. Right, of course,

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Speaker 1: they immediately hit foul weather, which delayed their fleet. They

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Speaker 1: had to stop in the West Indies to resupply themselves

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Speaker 1: with water and provisions. And around then is when John

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Speaker 1: was accused of plotting a mutiny and put under arrest,

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Speaker 1: and Captain Christopher Newport, who was in charge of all

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Speaker 1: three of the ships, planned to execute John as soon

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Speaker 1: as they got to the New World. He's like, I

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Speaker 1: mean literally, we're gonna pull you off their ship and

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Speaker 1: you're You're dead, buddy, You're dead. It's nice of them

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Speaker 1: to wait. I don't really understandable. I wonder why they decided.

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Speaker 1: Why didn't they just throw him overboarders, right or something?

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Speaker 1: But I think you know, Jed pirate Roberts, Yeah, good night.

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Speaker 1: John's well, I'll most likely kill you as soon as

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Speaker 1: we get to land. I wonder if it was just

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Speaker 1: like they were feeling so much like they had to

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Speaker 1: legitimately set up government punishments and and all that that

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Speaker 1: they're like, well, we have to start as we mean

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Speaker 1: to go on. Yeah, once we get to the shore,

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Speaker 1: i'll see you know what I mean, like a civilized folk,

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Speaker 1: and I'll kill you on dry land. That's right, we'll

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Speaker 1: have a trial or something. Out of trial, let me

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Speaker 1: gather up twelve year peers. So they landed at Cape

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Speaker 1: Henry in late April seven and Captain Newport I mean

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Speaker 1: was probably having the gallows constructed when he unsealed the

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Speaker 1: orders from the Virginia Company about who would be in

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Speaker 1: charge of the colonists on land. Seven men were named,

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Speaker 1: Six of them prominent well connected figures in their late

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Speaker 1: forties early fifties, and Captain Christopher Newport was one of them,

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Speaker 1: but a seventh was John Smith. John Smith probably held

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Speaker 1: out his risk like so, yeah, I want to take

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Speaker 1: these off now because it turns out I'm in charge now.

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Speaker 1: Speculations Station. I have to ask you, how do you

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Speaker 1: think John Smith got his name on this list, the

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Speaker 1: short list of leaders. Well, it would have been sent separately, right,

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Speaker 1: I think he was sent with until they got there

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Speaker 1: to open, until New World was written on the envelope. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I I considered possibly that when they're writing

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Speaker 1: these lists, they're like, all right, definitely these six guys,

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Speaker 1: and then I feel like I'm forgetting someone. Who could

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Speaker 1: it be? And they always say, just right, john Smith,

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Speaker 1: there's probably one there, and they'll just use him. I

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Speaker 1: was like, maybe, like, does he have something on the

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Speaker 1: merchants that started the Virginia Company, Like showed up like,

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Speaker 1: remember this nudy painting that you pose for, Well, I

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Speaker 1: have it now, smot scandal scandalous. So they picked a

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Speaker 1: spot to build on, which seemed like the perfect place.

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Speaker 1: It was about thirty five miles up river in this peninsula,

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Speaker 1: and it had deep enough water that they could more

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Speaker 1: their ships to the trees, and it was covered in

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Speaker 1: abundant wild flowers and strawberries, and it was just a

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Speaker 1: beautiful paradise. Best of all, it was uninhabited by the

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Speaker 1: native Indians, so maybe that should have been a clue

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Speaker 1: that they picked a ship place to build, because the

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Speaker 1: tribes knew better than to settle on this swampy land.

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Speaker 1: They still hunted there, though, and they saw it as

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Speaker 1: their territory. So as soon as the English arrived, they

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Speaker 1: were attacked and two of their men were killed, one

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Speaker 1: of them while he was taking a ship, which is

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Speaker 1: just not fair, you know, cold blooded. You could wait

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Speaker 1: wait three minutes for the guy to finish reading the

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Speaker 1: Sunday Times folding it up. Oh larious, Garfield Today, I

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Speaker 1: hate Monday. But honestly, even though they got attacked, the

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Speaker 1: English were doing a pretty good job of killing themselves

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Speaker 1: because this peninsula they had chosen, which the Indians specifically

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Speaker 1: didn't go to, didn't have any springs or brooks, so

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Speaker 1: they drank water from this river that was always brackish

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Speaker 1: and sometimes literally poisonous. One colonist wrote that at low

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Speaker 1: tide the water was quote full of a slime and

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Speaker 1: filth growth drink it. I mean, what there are options

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Speaker 1: do we have? So they boil advisory and effect for

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Speaker 1: the peninsula. So they were getting dysentery and typhoid fever

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Speaker 1: and salt poisoning from drinking this water. Colonists George Percy

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Speaker 1: wrote quote men were destroyed with cruel diseases as swellings, fluxes,

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Speaker 1: burning fevers in the more their bodies trailed out of

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Speaker 1: the cabins like dogs to be buried. Um what dogs

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Speaker 1: trail out of their cabins to be buried? I know,

386
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Speaker 1: like weird. What do you talk about, George, You've got

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Speaker 1: a weird life, George. I think people were okay with

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Speaker 1: doing the dogs back then. They're always execute him like

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Speaker 1: a dog, and I'm like, what are you doing to dogs?

390
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: So cradle him softly while I'm weep. But these colonists,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they were also suffering from heat stroke and

392
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Speaker 1: something called clencher, which was this tropical delirium that made

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Speaker 1: men jump into the sea thinking that it was this

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Speaker 1: beautiful grassy meadow. Why all does it's like sounds like

395
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Speaker 1: that zombie fungus that gets ner brain. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: It's just so weird to me to be on a

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Speaker 1: ship and be so far gone with some delirium that

398
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Speaker 1: like you're just like, I guess we're just on land

399
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Speaker 1: now for some reason. The ship is in the middle

400
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Speaker 1: of this wonderful prairie. I so desperate for land, solid land.

401
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: I guess that like I'll jump out of the ship.

402
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Speaker 1: And I mean, I know people who would pay good

403
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Speaker 1: money for that trip. Yeah, very true. In Tony Horwitz's book,

404
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Speaker 1: A Voyage Long and Strange Um, this is a very

405
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Speaker 1: good book, by the way, I totally recommend it. It's

406
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Speaker 1: a book specifically about early America, and he talks about

407
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Speaker 1: the Vikings from like the hundreds of years into the

408
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Speaker 1: early colonists of six and it's really fascinating to kind

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Speaker 1: of see how the conquistadors entered the country and how

410
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Speaker 1: the Vikings entered the country and all the different tribes

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Speaker 1: and their experiences and everything. So anyway, just saying great book,

412
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Speaker 1: read it. And in his book he says, quote Virginia's

413
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Speaker 1: assault on newcomer's health, not just that first summer, but

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Speaker 1: for years to come, was so remorseless that the English

415
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Speaker 1: referred to a process of seasoning. Colonists landed, fell ill

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Speaker 1: and either died or became seasoned to their in ironment.

417
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Speaker 1: But you know what they say about the English, they

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Speaker 1: ain't great with seasoning, Tony writes, quote of the more

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Speaker 1: than twenty thou English sent to Virginia during the colonies

420
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Speaker 1: first decades, roughly three quarters perished. This death rate, notes

421
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Speaker 1: the historian Edmund Morgan, was comparable only to that found

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Speaker 1: in Europe during the peak years of the plague. So

423
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: if you were coming here, well, I guess they either

424
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: didn't tell you that, or you were very wealthy and

425
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: thought that you are important so you won't die, or

426
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: you came unwillingly yeah, or your ship is so desperate

427
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: back home you'll take your chance. Like that. I mean

428
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: that says a lot, because, yeah, if anyone knew any

429
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: thing real about what was going on with some of

430
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: these folks, I can't imagine that they were like, yeah,

431
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: let me get let me get a ticket to the

432
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: new world, which definitely in hindsight, Like if I'm a

433
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: ruler of a country and I look around and I say, wow,

434
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: things are terrible here. Look at all these people harving

435
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: and dying because of our leadership and the way we

436
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: manage things. Uh, let's go do it more places. Does

437
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: not sound like that. Maybe fix your ship at home,

438
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: you know, take care of yourself before you go try

439
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: and influence others. And that's a lesson everyone can take

440
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: home today. So Thanksgiving. On top of the natives and

441
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: the environment, the English were also fighting amongst themselves. Of course,

442
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: the Council's first president was quickly overthrown for being stingy

443
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: with supplies and hoarding food. His successor was exposed as

444
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: an impostor hiding behind an alias, and the guy who

445
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: blew the whistle on him was sentenced to death for treason.

446
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: What a mess. As Tony writes, he was quote the

447
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 1: first of many who would be shot, burned, or tortured

448
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: at Jamestown. Part of the problem here was some of

449
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: the colonists, like George Percy, were lords back in England,

450
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: and they expected the same level of deference and preference

451
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: that they got at home. Right, they're like, but by jove,

452
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: nobody wants to work anymore. Right, But there's there's nothing

453
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: to eat, the water is slimy. But but is it

454
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: too much to ask to get some service with a smile? Hello,

455
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: you look like you're dying like a dog, But do

456
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: you mind polishing my ship? Exactly so. Most of the

457
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 1: other colonists besides these rich folks, were debtors or drunken

458
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: sailors and soldiers or convicts released from prison, or laborers

459
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 1: who had been pressed at ports around the London streets.

460
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: Tony said, quote, this mob would have been hard for

461
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: anyone to motivate and control, and the gentry appointed to

462
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: do so we're spectacularly ill suited to the task. So

463
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: within four months of the colonies founding, over half of

464
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: the original settlers were dead. The remaining settlers were starved

465
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: and sick. They were utterly defenseless, And if he had

466
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 1: wanted to power, Haddon could have annihilated the entire colony

467
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: then and there. I mean, they had nothing going for them.

468
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: They could have con in mode them down quickly and

469
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: dipped out and maybe never heard from him again. I

470
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: don't know, history would be very different if they had,

471
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: because instead they showed up with a bunch of food.

472
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: And we'll find out what the hell that's all about

473
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: after this commercial break and welcome back to the show, Turkeys.

474
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: Historians have wondered for centuries why the natives chose to

475
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: save the colonists, a question that in retrospect is even

476
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: more burning. Yeah. Right, so they're kind of like, maybe,

477
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: you know, maybe the natives thought the colonists were more

478
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 1: valuable alive than dead because while they were there, English

479
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: ships showed up with all kinds of cool stuff like

480
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: copper kettles and axes and weapons Nintendo switches that they

481
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: were kind of like, Oh, I'm interested in this school it.

482
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 1: I would like to be able to trade for it. Um.

483
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: They may have also kind of been like, oh, these

484
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: colonists have cannons and muskets and all these big weapons

485
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: that they didn't have, and they were like, if we

486
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: can align with them, we can use their weapons against

487
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: other tribes and we'll have you know this backup. Um.

488
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: Maybe they've just felt bad because they were watching a

489
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: bunch of stupid babies flail around who are not able

490
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: to feed themselves and are drinking shitty water. So they

491
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: were maybe like, look at these dumb asses, like we

492
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: could suppress them so easily and get out of hand later. Right,

493
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: let's help them now, and they they'll you know, they'll

494
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: be forever thankful. Yeah, they probably have a whole day

495
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: about how thankful they are for everything we gave them,

496
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: and they'll be really nice to us forever. That's that's it,

497
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: That's what happened. Whatever the reason was, they brought, as

498
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: recorded by George Percy, quote bread, corn fish, and flesh

499
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: in great plenty, which was the adding up of our

500
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: feeble men. Otherwise we had all perished. I mean so

501
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: right there, he's admitting that without them they would all died. Yeah,

502
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: we were feeble. We sucked. Thank goodness, they showed up

503
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: with a bunch of food, and they were probably like, mommy,

504
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: a bunch of birds, like we're we have for ever

505
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: in your debt, and we will be a totally thankful

506
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: and have a whole day about you know how we do.

507
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: So refreshed, the colonists were all looking around like, hey,

508
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: who's still alive around here? Can I get a roll call?

509
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,959
Speaker 1: And amongst the leaders who were still around was John Smith,

510
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: and he was put in charge of resupplying the fort,

511
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: and he immediately set off through the chest Speak waterways

512
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: to get some trading going with the native tribes. Over

513
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: the next two years, he would explore eastern Virginia, Maryland,

514
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: and possibly even Delaware, creating a man that was useful

515
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: to explorers for over a century. Now. In five when

516
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: the Roanoke Colony was established, they had settled among some

517
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: relatively small tribes and they were peacefully accepted. But this

518
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: time the Jamestown colonists had placed themselves like smack in

519
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: the middle of the most powerful and populous society on

520
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: the eastern seaboard. How Haughton's capital was only twelve miles

521
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: from Jamestown. Uh. Like we mentioned, he collected tributes from

522
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: dozens of tribes and over fifteen thousand natives. It's kind

523
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: of like the colonial equivalent of planting a flag in

524
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: the middle of Manhattan and being like, now, give me

525
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: all your food on The natives were like, uh no, bro,

526
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: Like I'm walking here, I'm living here, I've already been

527
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: settled for centuries. Yeah. So John Smith had to be

528
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: pretty canny to get what the colonists needed. When he

529
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: approached a tribe asking to trade. He wrote that they

530
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: offered only quote small handfuls of beans or wheat for

531
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: a hatchet or a piece of copper, because they were

532
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: pretty sure the colonists were starving and desperate, which of

533
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: course they were. The exchange rate was very weighed in

534
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: the natives favor. I'll give you three ships and thirty

535
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: men for you know, a couple of apples. Yeah right,

536
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: I mean right. And so John Smith of course knew

537
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: that this is not a great place to start negotiation,

538
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: to show up, you know, like I'll take whatever you'll give.

539
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: So he would scoring their initial offer and he would

540
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: anchor nearby and then run his boat on shore, shoot

541
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: off some muskets, and march on the village. Unbelievable, very

542
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: rarely got to actual combat or like warfare, you wouldn't

543
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: call it. But he was definitely like roa, like you know,

544
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: he was kind of trying to be like a bear

545
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: and show him that big and powerful. Wow scary. It's

546
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: like going to getting being like PS five is how

547
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: much and going outside and shooting your gun in the

548
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: air and be like, now, how much is it? And

549
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: the poor seasonal employee at target is like is the same, sir,

550
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: Like I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't set

551
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: the price, sister. But yeah, after john Smith would kind

552
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 1: of try this gunboat diplomacy. It usually worked. The natives

553
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: would offer venison and corn at favorable rates of exchange.

554
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: The Virginia Company had been pretty clear to quote, have

555
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: great care not to offend the naturals. But john Smith

556
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: kind of scoffed about these what he called tender educats

557
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: trying to tell him what to do from thirty miles away.

558
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: You know, Americans hate England telling them what to do once.

559
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: We also hate educated people, like we're just like, I'm

560
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: so sick of these book learners telling me what to

561
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: do right now. Tony writes that that's kind of a

562
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: bunch of bullshit because john Smith himself was very well

563
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: read and admired Machiavelli um, So it wasn't about like

564
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: boots on the ground decision making. It was more that

565
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: he felt that if they were being too soft on

566
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: the natives, they would seem weak and easy to defeat.

567
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: But the colonists were weak and easy to defeat, and

568
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: he had to somehow kind of proved that they weren't,

569
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: so he reached into his Soldier of fortune bag of

570
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: tricks to make himself look stronger than he was. Tony

571
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: writes quote, he fired his boat cannon into a tree

572
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: full of icicles to magnify the shots impact. He used

573
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: rivers and encircling woods to create terrifying echoes, and he

574
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: stuck soldiers helmets the top sticks to make us seem many.

575
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: He also reprised his gladiatorial skills, besting several chiefs in

576
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: solo combat. So he's using everything he learned over the years.

577
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: You know, he's pulling out all the stops full John

578
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: Smith to make them, you know, to make us seem

579
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: like a bunch of badasses, despite the fact that I'm

580
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: probably the only badass here right everyone else is the

581
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: soft lord fishing for a butter dish. Imagined like a

582
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: training montage of him trying to get them to march

583
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: in time, all these soft, rich folks starving marching. I

584
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: also love that he used so many like stage magic,

585
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: theater to be like, fire the shot here, because then

586
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: the echo will make it seem like many shots were fired.

587
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: Like that's such a theater thing to do, And I

588
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: love it, Like he was really theatrical guy. Right, He's like, watch,

589
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: I can remove my own thumb and they're like, whoa,

590
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: this art is nails took my nose. Know that the

591
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: day of people were not stupid. No, no, I don't.

592
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: He was just a yeah. No, he was just a showman.

593
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: And yeah he knew how to how to make it. Yeah.

594
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: I have wonder I mean, I know this comes from

595
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: Tony's book, but I have wonder which tactics worked and

596
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: which didn't. Like the Natives like, yeah, we know what

597
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: an echo sounds like. We've been running these rivers for

598
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: a long time. We know what it sounds like when

599
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: somebody's over there and there's only one of them. We

600
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: also use echoes. Yeah, you're not special, but you know

601
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: speculation station. But the thing is John was also very shrewd.

602
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 1: He traded strategically, he spread goods among villages to stoke

603
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: demand without dampening prices. And he was also a skilled

604
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: linguist from all of his travels, so he started to

605
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: compile an Algonquin dictionary, including enduring words were still here

606
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: today like moccasin and tomahawk, and a term for friend

607
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 1: cham a, which may be the source of the word

608
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: chum yeah, which is cute because I just imagined, like

609
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: the English start using the word chum right, and it's

610
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: like for them, it's like, oh this fun native word,

611
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: like sean, where did you get that word? Oh? Well,

612
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: I stole it from the natives, just like everything else

613
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: I have here. Jolly good. I think I'll steal it too.

614
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: What else can we steal? Nothing? We've got it all.

615
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: I also wonder if speculation station if this is how

616
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: he got him himself on that list of leaders, like

617
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: if he went to the Virginia countries, like, so, I

618
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: see your list of leaders. They all are great anyway,

619
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: do any of them speak another language? And there are

620
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: another language? Is there another language? Hey, Steve, is there

621
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: another language besides English? Oh? Apparently there is. Maybe he

622
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: convinced them by blowing up some icicles and he was like, oh,

623
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: do you have any you got room for another leader

624
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: on there? How about now? And they were like, WHOA

625
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: get him on the illusions. In late sixteen o seven,

626
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: John Smith was captured by Opachan Paw, Hotton's brother, who

627
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: was a warrior who would not once but twice strategically

628
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: outthink the English and defeat them in battles in the

629
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: years to come. But right now though, pow Howton had

630
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: just sent him to grab John Smith and bring him

631
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: over for a little talk. Threw him in the back

632
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: of a van. Yeah. According to Smith's account, he dazzled

633
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: opachan Kana with a compass quote whereat he was so

634
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: amazingly admired as he suffered me to proceed in a

635
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: discourse of the roundness of the Earth, the course of

636
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: the sun, moon, stars, and planets. Which is so funny

637
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: to think of John Smith having like an astronomy lesson.

638
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,479
Speaker 1: Maybe in the back of that he's got a little

639
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,959
Speaker 1: model out He's like, actually, this is set. Then John

640
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: was taken on a tour of Indian villages, and according

641
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: to the Mattaponies, this was to demonstrate to each tribe

642
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: that the English were as human as they were, because

643
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 1: they did not know that. They really were not sure

644
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: what was going on with guys, very very different looking creatures. Yeah, yeah,

645
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: which is funny because you know, it seems that the

646
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: English knew, of course that the natives were human, just

647
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: didn't see them on the same level as human. And

648
00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's the same thing going on here,

649
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: Like they're he might be they're hum annoyed, but they

650
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: might be aliens. Like who knows where these guys came from?

651
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: And then they're just showing them their blood and flesh

652
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: just like you. And watch when I kick him in

653
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: the nuts, he falls over else I wish they that

654
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: would be amazing. It's like, what's this? Everyone that incredible?

655
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: Like they took him to every inning village and just

656
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: kicked him in the balls to prove he was human.

657
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: And then he was like, I'm gonna write that you

658
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: guys tried to kill me. And then they finally brought

659
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: him before Powhatton, who was around sixty years old at

660
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: this time, and Smith describes him as quote grave and majestical,

661
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: wearing chains of great pearls about his neck, and seated

662
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: on an elaborate day, is surrounded by wives and retainers.

663
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: They really pulled out all the stops to show their

664
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: wealth and elegance and power to this guest. And in

665
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: Smith's first account of the meeting, published in sixteen o eight,

666
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: he wrote that pow Hotton welcomed him with good words

667
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: and platters of food. It just seems like a lovely

668
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: little time together that they had. It wasn't until seventeen

669
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: years later that John Smith would write the story about

670
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: Pocahonas saving him from execution that so many of us

671
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: are familiar with it today. Um. He said at that

672
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: time that they brought two huge stones, and they placed

673
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: his head on one stone and then lifted the other

674
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: to bash his brains out with it. And that's when

675
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: Pocahons ran in and placed her head on top of

676
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: his to prevent them from hitting him with rocks. Right.

677
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: But according to the Mattapony Oral History, if pow Hotton

678
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 1: had intended to kill John Smith, there's no way Pocahontas

679
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 1: would have been present to save him. As an eleven

680
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: year old girl, she was still a child, and children

681
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: weren't allowed at certain ceremonies and religious rituals. But they

682
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: also say that pow Hotton never did intend to kill

683
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: John Smith at all. Instead, he was welcoming him as

684
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: a chief or aware of wants of the English tribe,

685
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: essentially making the Lish part of the existing pow hot nation.

686
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: Like now you guys are another tribe here. Cool, You're

687
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: not going to stay. You gotta operate just like all

688
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: the other tribes do. Um, that's great that you have

689
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: ship that you're bringing from home, But we got a

690
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: system in place here. He told John Smith that in

691
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: return for quote too great guns and a grindstone, how

692
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 1: Hotton would forever esteem him as his son, not to quote,

693
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: he also gave the English a better spot for their

694
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: settlement on the York River, like he's He's like, hey,

695
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: I couldn't help, but notice that you guys put your

696
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: fort in a swamp full of disease, and most of

697
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: you died. So I can't have a son of mine

698
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: looking stupid. So how about a how about a change location?

699
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: You'll feel okay with that? What if I just show you?

700
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: Let me just escort you a few feet this way here?

701
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: This one won't kill you much nicer. But Encyclopedia Virginia

702
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: says that John refused because he was loyal to King James,

703
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 1: and therefore he couldn't also be a subject of pow Hotton's.

704
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: So communications started to break down almost immediately. How Hotton

705
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: saw the English as his subjects as long as they

706
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: were in his country, which you know makes sense, I

707
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 1: get it, I get it. But John Smith saw Powe

708
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: Hotton as a subject of King James, which makes less

709
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: sense this one. I'm not connecting the dots. I mean again,

710
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: just imagine today fly into France, landing on the coast

711
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: and saying, all right, you're all Americans now, I mean yeah,

712
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: you would get laughed, yeah, off the face of the continent. Insane.

713
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: It's it's very weird and it you know, you have

714
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: to think that John Smith and his contemporaries really believed

715
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 1: that the king was selected by God. I'm I guess,

716
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: and so they were like, well, he's did the divine rulers,

717
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 1: so you might think that you're the king whatever whatever.

718
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: But as soon as King James decided that this was

719
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: going to be an English colony, that's when you are

720
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: now his subject, which is again just so weird to

721
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: just bend over, especially when you're already got traded with

722
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: so many other nations that you're not. They're not subjects

723
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: of King James, So how come they they are? And

724
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: they're like, I'm sorry, you said God singular, what are

725
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: you talking about? But Pocahontas and John Smith did hang

726
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: out together while John was either being hosted by or

727
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: held hostage by Powe Hotton, depending on how you see things.

728
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: Camilla Townsend, author of Pocahontas and the pow Hotten Dilemma,

729
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: and a history professor at Rutger's told Smithsonian Magazine that

730
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: in john Smith's surviving notes, there are sentences like tell

731
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: Pokehontist to bring me three baskets, or Pokehontas has many

732
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: white beads. So she was kind of like, this is

733
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: this kind of woke up her imagination a lot to

734
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: read that, because she's like, clearly they were sitting next

735
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: to each other's, side by side, trying to learn in

736
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: each other's language. Like he would write a sentence in

737
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: English and then she would repeat it in Algonquin for him,

738
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: and that's probably how he managed to compile his dictionary.

739
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: That's how she started learning English to sort of. She

740
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,919
Speaker 1: kind of was serving as an interpreter later on in life.

741
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: And it represents how much the natives were trying to

742
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: assimilate the English into their nation. You know, they're like,

743
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: we'll learn your language, you'll learn our language. It's going

744
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: to be great. Once john Smith was accepted by the tribe,

745
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: they established kind of a study abroad type program where

746
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: English guys would join the tribes to learn their ways

747
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: and vice versa. The natives would send men to join

748
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: the English and learn their ways, and so they would

749
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: kind of have an exchange of information. I say, study abroad,

750
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: but it was like a few miles up river. They

751
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: were like, go a few hundred feet rest it felt abroad.

752
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure they were like, it feels like a whole right.

753
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: Probably took them as long to get there as it

754
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: takes us to fly to Europe. Right, It's true they

755
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: did have to walk, right. So anyway, Pocahonas and John

756
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: Smith were certain friendly. They definitely knew each other, But

757
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: no contemporaneous sources talk about a romance because again Pocahonis

758
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: was just a child. She's ten or eleven at this time.

759
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: The first claim of romantic involvement actually was written by

760
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: a guy named John Davis in eighteen oh three, so

761
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: nearly two hundred years later. So nobody around this time

762
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: was that making up this story. Yeah, beautiful busty princess

763
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: or right, And it's like two hundred years plus after

764
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: that before we're getting around to debunking it here. So

765
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: let's take a quick commercial break and we will be

766
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: back in less than two d years. Thank god. Welcome back,

767
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: Gordon's and pies. So around this point, thanks to death

768
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 1: and deposement, John Smith had risen to become the President

769
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: of the Council. Right away, he got strict with the

770
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: listless colonists, declaring quote, he that will not work, shall

771
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: not eat, for the labors of thirty or forty honest

772
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: and industrious men shall not be consumed to maintain a

773
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty idle loiterers. So he's basically saying, from each,

774
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: according to their abilities, contribute, and to each you will

775
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 1: get what you need according to your needs. In some ways,

776
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,959
Speaker 1: everybody works, no one sits around, everybody eats. That sounds

777
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: all right, um, but remember he's trying to whip up

778
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: these lazy, rich guys and get them to finally contribute

779
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: to the colony, which, of course not all of them liked.

780
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: They were like were as one of the hundred and fifty.

781
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: I'm fine with what we've been doing. You know, everything's

782
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: working out great, except for how many people keep dying

783
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: and no one will clean up their bodies. George Percy,

784
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: for example, said Smith was quote an ambitious, unworthy and

785
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: vainglorious fellow attempting to take old men's authorities away from them.

786
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: Probably I listened to a couple of recordings from the

787
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: time that it's a spot on impression. Yes, but under

788
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: John Smith, the fort prospered. Colonists performed military drills, they

789
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: built houses, and dug a well of quote excellent sweet water. Finally,

790
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: instead of drinking out the river, they were like, what

791
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 1: if we freaking built a well? And, as Tony writes

792
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: in a Voyage, Long and Strange Quote, what made Smith

793
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: exceptional was his recognition that survival in America meant learning

794
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 1: to live as Americans. That's when he started to disperse

795
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: settlers among tribes to learn their ways. And they also

796
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 1: were guided by Indian prisoners on how to order and

797
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: plant their fields and clear land, which natives did by

798
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: cutting notches into tree trunks and stripping the bark, which

799
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: caused the trees to rot, and then they could just

800
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: push them over. I love it because you, I mean,

801
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 1: you can't imagine maybe the English colonists like hacking away

802
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: with an axe and the natives being like, you know

803
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: that they'll just rought on their own, right, Like why

804
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: are you doing so much work? It takes a little longer,

805
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: but you know they're they're right there. English hated waiting

806
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: for ship. Yeah. Well, the natives were way more patient

807
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: in their processes and more natural too. Yeah, but they

808
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: also didn't build houses the same way or anything like that,

809
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: so you know, they needed trees for different reasons. But

810
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: still it was a good thing to learn. And yeah,

811
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: John Smith also decided to stop caring so much about

812
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: finding gold and other like mineral wealth, which had been

813
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: the main motivation for settling America. Um Tony writes, quote

814
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: America's true promise, he believed lay in its soil, timber, fish, game,

815
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: and other resources, and tapping this wealth required patient and

816
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 1: humble labor. But unfortunately, the Virginia Company was still obsessed

817
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: with gold, so they were just sending metal refiners and

818
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: like perfumers to the fourth Like a perfumer got to

819
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: the got to a perfumer showed up to Jamestown and

820
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: was like, well, it does smell bad here, but otherwise

821
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: I don't see what the uses of me and my skill.

822
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: What's your trade, sir, Well, I make wonderful smelling lavender perfume.

823
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 1: He's like, cool, Great, I need you to go cut

824
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: down these trees. I guess you can collect all these

825
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: bodies up. That will make it smell better around here.

826
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: That's sort of an ancillary skill. At one point, Smith

827
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: actually wrote to the Virginia Company that they could send

828
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: him a hundred of those guys if they would just

829
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: also quote, send but thirty carpenters, husbandmen, gardeners, fishermen, blacksmith's, mason's,

830
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 1: and diggers up of trees. Yeah, just yeah, I don't care.

831
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: Send me all the perfume guys you want. Just for

832
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: the love of God, can I have someone who can

833
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: pick up an act? One person who knows how to

834
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: work with a damn hand. Just someone who knows how

835
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: to build a fire, for God's sake, somebody who can

836
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: pick up a knife and cut a piece of meat

837
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: without chopping their fingers off. Because these people and Smith.

838
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: John Smith also thought it was a great thing to

839
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: inherit wealth and honor. But he wrote quote that which

840
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 1: is got by prowess and magnanimity is the truest luster.

841
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,479
Speaker 1: And during his one year tenure almost no Englishman died,

842
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: which was an unprecedented success at this point, and that

843
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: wasn't just because of John Smith though um It was

844
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: also because pal Hotton made sure to send the settler's

845
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: food in the winter of sixteen o seven to sixteen

846
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: o eight. This is partly because you know, he considered

847
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: them one of his tribes, so he's like, let me

848
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: help you out. I see you're struggling. Um. But also

849
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: because the English promise to provide metal tools and weapons

850
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: in exchange for their gifts of food. This is really

851
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: important to understand the native culture at the time and

852
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: maybe today too, I don't know, but how Hotton culture

853
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: was very much based on gifts. There were certain gifts

854
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: you got that had certain messages attached to them, you

855
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: know what I mean, you got a certain thing, it

856
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: was actually like shape up or ship out, you know

857
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: what I mean. It wasn't just like take this and go.

858
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: And then also if you were given a gift, it

859
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: was really important to reciprocate with another gift otherwise like

860
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: you're being a real asshole, right, So not like me

861
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: and how I do birthdays because well I don't yeah,

862
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: I don't don't get me stuff, guys, I I never remember,

863
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: please don't. Um. And also yeah, if they didn't get

864
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: the gift that they were promised in return, they would

865
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: just go take it because to them it already was owed.

866
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: Do you understand that. So anyway, that's really important to understand.

867
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: It's something the colonists did not understand and it was

868
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: part of the big problem. But gifts, the gift exchange

869
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: was very serious and had a lot of meaning attached

870
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: to it, and the English had promised to give these

871
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 1: things in exchange for the food. So how Hottons like, great,

872
00:51:58,239 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: I'll send food. This is all going to work out

873
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: one to fully. And these food gifts were often brought

874
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: by a number of tribesmen accompanied by Pokehontas, because she

875
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: was like a symbol of peace to the English. If

876
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,479
Speaker 1: she was there, everything was dope. And the settlers wrote

877
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: about her, describing her as a naked child doing cartwheels

878
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: around the fort with the other young English boys, you know,

879
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,439
Speaker 1: the other children. Um, so again they're talking about a child.

880
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: No one in the time period was thinking about no

881
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: sexy stuff with Pocahonas. Another time, Pocahonas was sent with

882
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: envoys to negotiate the release of Indian prisoners. So the

883
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: English knew her, and thanks to the tight security that

884
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: always traveled with her, they knew that she was very

885
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: important to pow Hotton, and they certainly took note of that.

886
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: But through sight things began to sour between the Powhattan

887
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: tribes and the English. There had been two years of drought,

888
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,240
Speaker 1: so the natives didn't have a lot of extra food despair,

889
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: but the English would ceaselessly demand more and more, seeming

890
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: not to care if the Natives were left with nothing

891
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: as long as the English needs were met. They also

892
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: renegged on promises to send metal tools in exchange for

893
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: the gifts of food already given, And so the Natives

894
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: were just taking them through theft instead, because again that

895
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 1: they were like, these are owed to us. You said

896
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 1: we could have them, so we're just gonna come get them. Yeah,

897
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: to to them, they already belonged to them, right, So

898
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: it wasn't theft, but to the English it was theft. Right.

899
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: So pow Hotton decided to stop trading with the English,

900
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,720
Speaker 1: and he told his tribes to go ahead and attack

901
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: them whenever they wanted. John Smith paid an uninvited visit

902
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: to where Racomico to talk it out. How Hotton scolded

903
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: him for how the English had been acting and expressed

904
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: a desire for peace. According to John Smith, when negotiations

905
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: between them broke down, pow Hotton excused himself in the meeting,

906
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 1: which was assigned to his warriors to execute John but

907
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: Pocahontas warned him about her father's plan to kill him,

908
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: thereby saving his life. But again this account differs from

909
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: the Mattapony oral history, which says there was no plot

910
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: to kill John Smith at all, and if there was,

911
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: Pocahonas would not have been able to give any kind

912
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: of warning to the English at all, because she was

913
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: still just a kid. She was very carefully supervised. In

914
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: sixteen o nine, pow Hotton moved his capital further away

915
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: from Jamestown and forbade Pocahontas from visiting anymore, marking the

916
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: beginning of the First Anglo pow Hotten War. And despite

917
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: his successes as a leader, the rich guys, John Smith

918
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: was put into work. We're plotting against him. Tony writes

919
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: that in sixteen o nine they engineered Smith's removal as

920
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: leader and maybe even tried to assassinate him. During one

921
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: of his many river trips, Smith was asleep in his

922
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: boat when his gunpowder bag quote unquote accidentally ignited, which

923
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,959
Speaker 1: quote tore his flesh from his body and thighs nine

924
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: or ten inches square in a most pitiful manner that

925
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: sounds horrible. He was unable to stand and near bereft

926
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: of his senses, according to colonial accounts, and a ship

927
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: was about to depart for England, so John Smith got

928
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: on it, sailed home and never saw Jamestown again. And

929
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: pow Hotton was told that John Smith died on the

930
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: voyage home, but he didn't really believe that story because

931
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, when the first lie he had heard from

932
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: from the white man, so he kind of he put

933
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: a pin in that for later. Yeah, because powe Hotton,

934
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: for all their differences, I think he kind of had

935
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 1: like a respect for John Smith and he appreciated the

936
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: way that he was doing things. And then this shift

937
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: in leadership was going to create a real problem for

938
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 1: the relative peace between the pow Hotton tribes and the

939
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: English settlers. Pow Hotton mistakenly thought that making a deal

940
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: with John Smith amounted to making a deal with the English,

941
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: but the English, of course, they didn't see it that way. Now,

942
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: George Percy became the new leader of Jamestown. Time for

943
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: me to take over and finally get something done around

944
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: Jill Noble working in the field for us rich folks.

945
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: Someone run me a bath. I'm in charge now, I'd

946
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: like a bath. Please, Someone get that lavender perfumer. Yes, right,

947
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: more perfumers. That's what we need. Stop sending all these

948
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: laborers and tradesmen. So, of course, unlike John Smith, George

949
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: Percy was not willing to work with the Indians. He

950
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: wanted to subjugate them. So they ramped up their campaign

951
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 1: of terror, and they burned villages. They were looting tombs

952
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: of dead kings. They cut off heads and limbs, and

953
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: forced tribes to hand over their food. Tony writes quote Smith,

954
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: for all his harshness, knew that such tactics would invite retribution,

955
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: and sure enough Natives responded by massacreing trade parties, in

956
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: one case stuffing the mouths of English corpses with food

957
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: as a warning to any others who should come to

958
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: seek for bread and relief among them. I mean they

959
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: were like, we would rather put this in your corpses

960
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: now to keep you away from us than to eat

961
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: it ourselves. Or or oh you want food, fine, here's

962
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: what you get when you come take a bite of

963
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: our food. Yeah, yeah, I mean brutal. But uh, you

964
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: know who started it? Ye? Who started it? George Percy

965
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: also neglected to store grain. He led fishing nets rot

966
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: he piste off the native so much that they killed

967
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: hundreds of hogs that John Smith had bread as a

968
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: reserve of food supply. So thanks to George's shitty leadership

969
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: and ask holarly to the Powhattan nation, the English found

970
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: themselves at the end of sixteen o nine, right back

971
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: where they started two years before, starving sick, huddled within

972
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: their wretched fort, except now there were five times as

973
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: many settlers that needed feeding. This would begin a long

974
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 1: winter known as the Starving Time. A voyage long and

975
00:57:54,760 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 1: strange describes their terrible situation. Quote when ration ran out

976
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: colonists eight horses, dogs, cats, rats, and mice. They ate shoes,

977
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: cooked starch from their collars into a gluey porridge, and

978
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: devoured excrement. When nothing else remained, they ate each other.

979
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Some simply disinterred already dead corpses for

980
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: for dinner, which I guess is the best way quote

981
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: unquote to do that. But one guy killed his pregnant wife,

982
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: chopped her up into pieces, and salted her for food.

983
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: What are we going to do? Their story? I was like,

984
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: what's his name, give me the names, but I feel

985
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: like it's a short sat episode. So consider this a

986
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: bonus non romance of this poor lady who got packed

987
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: up by some dude and then he decided to eat her,

988
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: and George Percy extracted his confession by hanging him from

989
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: his thumbs and then orders his execution. Might be the

990
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: only good thing that George Percy did. When John Smith

991
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: left to sail back to England in the autumn of

992
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: sixteen o nine, he left five colonists behind. By the

993
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: following May of sixteen ten, under George Percy's leadership, only

994
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: sixty were still alive. That's like of them died. He

995
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: I mean, would you not at some point in the

996
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 1: course of your leadership be like, maybe I'm fucking up?

997
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 1: Like is there no sense of like, I don't. I

998
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: don't understand George Percy. I just don't get it. It's

999
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: an idiot. He's like, we're all dying and maybe more perfume,

1000
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: I know, someone draw me a bath. That help now.

1001
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: A delayed supply ship which had been shipwrecked in Bermuda

1002
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: for ten months, which by the way, was an event

1003
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: that inspired Shakespeare to write The Tempest. Yes by the way,

1004
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: Shakespeare and Pocahonas lived at the same time. That I mean, yes,

1005
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: obviously because of numbers and years, but I did I

1006
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: never connected those two in my uh. Finally, this ship

1007
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 1: had been shipwrecked, but they finally arrived and found the

1008
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: Jamestown colonists so starved and crazed that it seemed like

1009
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: the colony wasn't even worth staying in. And on June seven, sixteen,

1010
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: the incoming governor ordered an evacuation and everyone got on

1011
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: the boats to leave. But just then another supply ship arrived,

1012
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: carrying a hundred and fifty fresh new settlers and a

1013
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: year's supply of provisions quote, whereupon Percy wrote, we all

1014
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: returned to Jamestown again. I love the idea of the

1015
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: They'm all board in the ship, maybe even like their

1016
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: way an anchor. What I mean, They're about to head out,

1017
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, oh hey guys, well ship, Um,

1018
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: how about guess just to grab your trunks? Everyone, Oh wait,

1019
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: we don't have anything, let's go. I mean, how about

1020
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: these hundred and fifty settlers who showed up. We're like

1021
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: the New World, so full of promise, and they get

1022
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: there and there's these starving, dying people. Sixty of them

1023
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: left trying to leave, and they're like, oh, never mind,

1024
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: you're here. Cool, we'll just stick it out. I know

1025
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: that sounds good. Let's turn around. Let's just turn around.

1026
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: Also like, all right, when I hear a delayed supply

1027
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: ship with shipwrecked in Bermuda for ten months, I'm thinking,

1028
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: all right, Yeah, they found Bermuda and they were like, oh,

1029
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: let's stay here a while, crystal clear water, sunny beaches,

1030
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: they got something called rum, got coconuts, Oh, let me

1031
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: just send a letter. Oh bad, shipwreck, can't make it

1032
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: gonna be a little late. And after three months are like,

1033
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: do you think we should probably get going? They're probably fine, Yeah,

1034
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: they Percy's there. Yeah, he was a great dancer. I'm

1035
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: sure he's going to be doing a great job. So

1036
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: that is the true story of Pocahonis and John Smith,

1037
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: and truly the most ridiculous romance we've covered so far

1038
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: because it wasn't even real, and it would have been

1039
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: really gross if it was. But we are far from Finnish.

1040
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: With Pocahontas in sixteen ten, you know, she's just coming

1041
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: to age. She had two great romances to come one

1042
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: with a pad of Womack tribal warrior named koku Um

1043
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: and another with the Englishman John Rolfe. But we will

1044
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: save that story for part two. Right, So go eat

1045
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: your big dinners, think, think about what you've done America

1046
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 1: and uh and and then we'll hear the second half

1047
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 1: of this. Uh. It really is amazing to have learned

1048
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: the real story. I mean, you know, obviously I knew

1049
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: even when I saw it that the Disney movie was nonsense, right,

1050
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: I mean, totally fictionalized. I hope everyone knows that. But

1051
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 1: the main thing that I just was thinking today was

1052
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: like when I was a kid and I saw the

1053
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:56,439
Speaker 1: Pocahonas movie, that was a thirty three year old woman,

1054
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like Pocahons was a full grown,

1055
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 1: fully developed, very huge, powerful, dominant, amazing woman, and she

1056
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: was just like twelve year old girl, also amazing. But

1057
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 1: but just that alone is such a disconnect from reality,

1058
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: Like why did you even choose this story? Guys, come

1059
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 1: on up front, you have to change it that much.

1060
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 1: Just go just find something else. I know, it's it's

1061
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: interesting too with with you know, the native side of

1062
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 1: of I guess the native perspective of the story is,

1063
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: you know, Pocahons is not a very popular character among

1064
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: Natives because of the way her story has been told

1065
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: so much that just like us, many of them grew

1066
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: up thinking she preferred a bunch of white people time.

1067
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: And you know, now we're finally getting around to being like, actually,

1068
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: that was a bunch of bullshit. But also when the

1069
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 1: movie came out, it was seen, it was very popular,

1070
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 1: and it was seen as such a great step forward

1071
01:03:56,920 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: because she was the first indigenous princess princess. It was

1072
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 1: like the first fully indigenous you know people on screen

1073
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: that you were seeing and they did draw them well

1074
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But like it is so weird

1075
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 1: to just I mean, you know, Disney is not history.

1076
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: They shouldn't have you shouldn't you know, hold them to

1077
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 1: academic standards, right, But it did manage their movie, did

1078
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: manage to really like perpetuate pretty harmful myth. Oh yeah.

1079
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 1: And I mean beyond that, it's a very self a

1080
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: grandizing version of the story where it's kind of like, well,

1081
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: mostly it was just a misunderstanding, and the English and

1082
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 1: the Natives were all, you know, they just if it

1083
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 1: worked for that bad guy, they would have gotten along

1084
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: the whole time, and everything would have been fine. And

1085
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: at the end of the day we all held hands

1086
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: and we're happy, and we're have a straight to video sequel,

1087
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: and and you know, it's it's just this very falsified account.

1088
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: Even even Johnson, I don't remember the movie super well,

1089
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: but I'm like this version of the story. I'm like, Okay.

1090
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 1: John Smith was like, he got ship done, he knew,

1091
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 1: he knew how to strategize. And while he shouldn't have

1092
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: been there in the first place, declaring the land for

1093
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 1: his own and to these people being subjects of the king,

1094
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: at least his strategy wasn't well, I'll just kill you

1095
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: until you join me. Maybe I'll scare you until you

1096
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: make your ship cheaper, but not necessarily, uh you know,

1097
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: genocide was not so he didn't think that was a

1098
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 1: smart tactic. Yeah, but of course that was basically, you know,

1099
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: his relative kindness and I'm using enormous quotation marks here

1100
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 1: was his sort of weakness to the other English people

1101
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 1: who thought, while this guy is not willing to get

1102
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: his hands dirty, so I will, which is so crazy

1103
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 1: because it seems to me that the reason how Hotton

1104
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 1: and the other natives respected John Smith that he used

1105
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: very similar methods that they did. I'd be like, I

1106
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: mean again, just going back to the very very beginning

1107
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: of the episode, we talked about how pow Hotton got

1108
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 1: all these tribes to become part of this one nation.

1109
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 1: It was partly forced and partly diplomacy, which is exactly

1110
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: what John Smith was doing. He used a little bit

1111
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: of force to be like, Okay, you can respect me.

1112
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: I can hurt you. Um, now we can. We're equals

1113
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 1: in this conversation and we can have an equal exchange.

1114
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to just come in and take

1115
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 1: all your ship. That doesn't work for me, because if

1116
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: I did, who's saving us multiple times from our own folly? Um,

1117
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: these guys that have the food and already know how

1118
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: to do all the agriculture, they already know how to

1119
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 1: live here, why would you kill them all? Like they're

1120
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: they're going to be the only reason that you survive.

1121
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: So it's just, you know, I feel like they were

1122
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh yeah, he shot his muskets and stuff.

1123
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: He had some you know. He was like, hey, chief,

1124
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: you fight with me, and if I win, will we'll

1125
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 1: go forward with this deal? And if if if I lose,

1126
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: I'll get the funk out of here. And they were like, sure,

1127
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: I can. I like that, I'm with that, I can right,

1128
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 1: I can deal with that. And they were like those

1129
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 1: tactics worked for me, and yeah. Then Percy's like, well

1130
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: just run them through with a store yeah, and again

1131
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 1: just to pop out of the clarity closet here. Um.

1132
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 1: That's not to say John Smith was doing everything right

1133
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 1: and a good guy. It was just like, you know,

1134
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: of of the many approaches that the English took um,

1135
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: his was at least, you know, somewhat sensible within the

1136
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: context of what they were doing, which was horrible. Yeah,

1137
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: and it's not to say that if he had stayed

1138
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 1: he would have been awesome the whole time. When changed

1139
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: his tactics once they got a little more comfortably established again,

1140
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 1: he was totally like, y'aller subjects of my king as

1141
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. So he might have just come

1142
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 1: in colonizing spirit fully intact, you know, but was just like,

1143
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to use you as long as I can.

1144
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: I don't mean it to be like he's a great guy, no, no, no,

1145
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 1: But or it may have been a situation where it

1146
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 1: was like that subjugation you don't know is happening kind

1147
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: of for that's sort of like I'm not going to

1148
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 1: come in and use my military force to destroy you,

1149
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna make it so that before you know it,

1150
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 1: you're dependent on me, and therefore now I now I

1151
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: do rule you, you know, which is another tactic the

1152
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 1: English have employed many times, and even the Americans look

1153
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: at we In the last episode we talked about the buffalo,

1154
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: I was just about saying, yeah, same same tactic there,

1155
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 1: like just take all their food and then they'll have

1156
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 1: to do whatever you say, yeah, and then come in

1157
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 1: and say, well, all your food's gone. Sorry, So you

1158
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 1: better try and be friends with us. Well, and it's

1159
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: really hard to be our friends the cool tible. You've

1160
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 1: got to try it ready hard. So yes, Pokontas and

1161
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: John Smith. Uh, fascinating story. Yeah, um, far different than

1162
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 1: what we heard than what was sang to us by

1163
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams. You know that music video is when I

1164
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 1: fell in love with Vanessa Williams. Oh really Yeah, she

1165
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: was an early crush of mine. She is gorgeous, totally

1166
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: understandolutely what she's up to, right, It's just stunning. She

1167
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 1: had those really light blue eyes right or something. I

1168
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 1: don't know. She has had a really cool look. She's

1169
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 1: she's beautiful. So if you're Vanessa Williams or anyone you know,

1170
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 1: feel free to reach out. We'd love to hear your

1171
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: thoughts or or how Vanessa Williams is doing. Please shoot

1172
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:16,759
Speaker 1: us an email. UM. You can get us at Romance

1173
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 1: at i heeart media dot com, or on social media

1174
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Dynamite Boom and I'm

1175
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:24,599
Speaker 1: at Oh great, it's Eli and the show is at

1176
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 1: ridic Romance. Of course, we'd love to hear from you.

1177
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: On Apple Podcasts, you can drop a review UM, or

1178
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, hire a skywriter to tell everyone in your

1179
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 1: neighborhood about our show. That sounds good. If you do that,

1180
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,560
Speaker 1: please seek a picture and tag us and that we

1181
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 1: can be incredibly nertally excited about it. Well, thanks for

1182
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:45,720
Speaker 1: tuning in, everyone, and we will see with part two

1183
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 1: of the Pocahona Story Pocahontas and John rolf Uh just

1184
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: after Thanksgiving and we cannot wait. Enjoy your food and

1185
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 1: family and friendship and fellowship and all the other great

1186
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 1: things that this holiday brings. Do you s so long friends,

1187
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: It's time to go. Thanks O, listenin to our show,

1188
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:08,560
Speaker 1: tell your friends, neighbor's uncles, and danced to listen to

1189
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: a show. Ridiculous well Dance