1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: I've Never told you production for iHeart Radio. Today. We 3 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: are so thrilled to once again be joined by the 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: amazing Bridget Todd. Hello Bridget, Hello Annie, Hello Sam. I'm 5 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: so excited to be here back with y'all again. Always 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: a delight. We're so excited to have you because as 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: we were just discussing, you have brought to the table 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: a topic we wanted to address. We knew super important, 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: but we were like, we better wait for Bridget, because Bridget, 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: you have got more no, no, how than than either 11 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: of us do. You've worked with Facebook, You've interacted with 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: these social media companies, You've just been a huge activist 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: and a very outspoken in this area and so so 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: excited where you're talking about this today. Yeah, and also 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: when we're talking about social media, I'm not gonna lie, 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: you're one of the people that I see the most 17 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: of in all of my social media is whether it's Twitter, Instagram, 18 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: typically more Twitter, and then like Instagram, I see your 19 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: face and the amazing things you're doing, and I have 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: to ask, I cannot figure out how you're doing everything 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: that you are doing because you're constantly on go, Like 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: I see you in all the panels and all the conversations, 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: all the interviews. Everybody wants to talk to you, of course, 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: but also you live what I am seeing to be 25 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: my fantasy life in the travel, Like, is this your 26 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: real life? Are you as fantastically living as I see? 27 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: Because I'm quite jealous of all of the beautiful trips, 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: all of the sunset pictures, all the lovely like sitting 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: by the water pictures. What is this life? What is 30 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: your life? Bridget I'm so glad you asked. So this 31 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: is actually such a good segue into the topic, which 32 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: is that. I think if you were going to check 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: out my Instagram, you would be like, oh, this is 34 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: a person who lives a phenomenal life. It's a lie. 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I do the trips, I do the travel. 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: The last few weeks I've been traveling on the road 37 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: and I was in the cat Skills right outside of Woodstock, 38 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: New York, which is in my favorite places to go. 39 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: And if you were just observing from social media, you 40 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: would be like, Wow, this person barely works, and when 41 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: she does work, she's just like sitting on a stage 42 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: and it looks lovely and then she's like going to 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: the cat Skills to her lovely cabin. I posted a 44 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: picture on Instagram of me in a hot tub overlooking 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: like rolling mountains and like very beautiful fall foliage, and 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: to be like honest, I did spend a lovely week 47 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: in a lovely cabin in the cat Skills, but I 48 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: was also working in the entire time, and so like 49 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't really that fun. My partner was there and 50 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: they were working in the entire time. The picture of 51 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: me in the hot tub, the hot tub had broken, 52 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: and so we had two good nights with it. And 53 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: then when I was in it for a picture, I 54 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I don't think it's actually on. Its 55 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: actually kind of cold, even though I look like very relaxed. 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: So no, I mean like it's such a like curated 57 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: greatest hits real. And I'm so glad that you asked, 58 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: because I think it's important to demonstrate that, you know, 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: Instagram versus reality, it's not always as peche keen rosie 60 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: as it seems. I have to also put in the 61 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: fight that not too long ago you injured yourself and 62 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: you're still like just writing on with all of these 63 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: activities that you're doing, including the fact that you are 64 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: pretty much bossing it up everywhere and doing all of 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: these interviews because I'm like, when does this woman ever stop? 66 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: Does she ever stop? Because I'm sitting in my own 67 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: couch playing the sad phone game that I've been obsessed 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: with while watching things on repeat. I did a lot 69 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: of that as well. And it's so funny because we 70 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: did our first live taping of my podcast There are 71 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: no Girls on the Internet and New y work during 72 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: that trip and someone was like, oh, wow, You're you're 73 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: back on your feet from breaking your ankle, and I 74 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: was like, no, I just I used my cast and 75 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: my crutches to get on the stage and I changed 76 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: my shoes again. You would think that I'm totally healed. 77 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: It's like, no, in actuality, I'm still in the cast. Yeah. 78 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: I mean that is such a great segue for what 79 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about. And this story around Facebook and particularly 80 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: the damage that it does to young girls has like 81 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: caught the national attention recently, the national attention um and 82 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: like it was a skit on SNL and it's been 83 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: funny slash sad to see these older politicians trying to 84 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: make sense of things like Instagram. Oh my gosh, but 85 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: it's just so much of what you bring in these 86 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: episodes just in streets, the real world damage and impact 87 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: that we often separate our beliefs that the internet doesn't have, 88 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: but it does. So can you break down this whole thing? 89 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: I will try my best. There's a lot going on, 90 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: so you know, Facebook has had a ru I mean, 91 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: a pretty intense few weeks. Is a lot happening, and 92 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: the thing I really want to focus on is the 93 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: harm specifically to young girls, like teenage girls. That is 94 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: not the totality of like what's going on and like 95 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: the last few weeks for Facebook and really the last 96 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: few months for Facebook. But if I were to talk 97 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: about all the different harmful things that Facebook has done 98 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: and is doing, you will be here all day. So 99 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: I really want to focus on the impact that it 100 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: has on young girls and teen girls, because you know, 101 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: I just think that like it's easy for teen girls 102 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: and their experiences to be sort of sidelined or marginalized, 103 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: and so with all the different information coming out, I 104 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: really want to focus on that, and so just generally 105 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: kind of like what's happening and sort of why this 106 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: converse she is taking place. The Wall Street Journal published 107 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: a series of really bombshell expose s about Facebook called 108 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: The Facebook Files. Um, it's also a podcast, if that's 109 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: how you prefer to get your media. And it was 110 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: all based on leaked data from documents from the company, 111 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: gathered by a whistleblower named Frances Hagen who used to 112 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: work in Facebook's now defunct Civic Integrity team. And that 113 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: was a team that was really tasked with combatant things 114 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: like misinformation and making sure that misinformation and disinformation did 115 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: not like derail elections, and so it's not surprising to 116 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,679 Speaker 1: me that they dismantled that team. And it's a nine 117 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: part series and it pretty much chronicles Facebook's most harmful 118 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: and troubling practices and behavior. From this expose, a we 119 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: found out things that like the fact that high profile 120 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,239 Speaker 1: celebrity Facebook users are pretty much exempt from Facebook's moderation rules, 121 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: and that Facebook is aware that their platform is used 122 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: to quote promote human trafficking and domestic servitude. And so 123 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: I would recommend that anybody either read the entire series 124 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: or listen to the podcast because there's so much there is, 125 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: Like every new draft, I'm like, wow, wow. Wow. And 126 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: I'm somebody who studies and works on Facebook and the 127 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: harm that they that they perpetuate. Right, it did seem 128 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: to be like oh wait and what wait and what now? 129 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me because I think we've talked 130 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: about on the show, but just in society in general, 131 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: it's interesting to me when we make these jokes. But 132 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: why are we accepting this as the reality. But one is, 133 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, Facebook is this place where it is harmful 134 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: and you're gonna get like your weird uncle giving you 135 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: some strange conspiracy theory and we're just like, yeah, that's cool, 136 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: that's what Facebook is. The powers that be were so like, yeah, 137 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't really matter because, like you said that, 138 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: these issues that are impacting teen girls in this case 139 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: are just seen as sort of frivolous or like they're 140 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: being emotional, Like it's just social media, what's the big deal? Right? Yeah, 141 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: But apparently it is a big deal and it has 142 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: been making an impact. And Facebook did this, they knew it, 143 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: and they kept going on with their platform and they 144 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: tried to hide it. But now that it's come out, 145 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: like every sigh, every sigh. So can you talk about 146 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: the scope of the issue here. Yes, So as you said, 147 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: I mean, like something to note is that even the 148 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: we're all talking about it and it's in the news, 149 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: a lot of this information is really not new except 150 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: that we've known from prior research or um just from 151 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: like being a casual user of the platform. If you're 152 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: a casual user of Facebook, even you probably might have suspected, like, oh, 153 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: Facebook might be making money off of causing harm, and 154 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: so this is really not surprising. But exactly as you 155 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: put it, I think why this is news right now 156 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: is that we're getting an insight into how much Facebook 157 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: already knew about the harm that their platform causes in 158 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: our society and how much they're trying to sort of 159 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: downplay it. And so another reason why we know that 160 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: this is not a new issue is that there have 161 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: been Facebook listle blowers in the past. So Fisang. She's 162 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: a former Facebook data scientist who uncovered abusive political manipulation 163 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: using fake engagement UM. She found a series of multiple 164 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: blatant attempts by foreign national governments to abuse the platform 165 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: on vast scales to mislead their own citizen read which 166 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: calls international news on multiple occasions. That starts from her report. 167 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: The summary of that is basically that, like, you know, 168 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: accounts belonging to government leaders, we're using fake accounts to 169 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: engage with their content to make it look like it's 170 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: more popular than it is. So if I if I'm 171 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: a government leader and I put out like we have 172 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: plans to do this, and then I have a bunch 173 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: of fake accounts who were like, yes, we love this plan, 174 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: we love this plan, we love this plan. It's like 175 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: building fake agreement for your policies. And so essentially that's 176 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: what so fising uncovered. And you know, Facebook has been 177 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: allowing and profiting all of these harmful practices forever. So 178 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: this is really not new. And I always like to 179 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: remind people that Facebook started because Mark Zuckerberg, when he 180 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: was in college, created a website called facemash, which basically 181 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: was like like a way to rank the attractiveness of 182 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: his female co students, right, And so misogyny and attacks 183 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: on women and harm against women, this is like not 184 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: a mistake. It is baked into these platforms like Facebook 185 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: from the very beginning. Zuckerberg will tell you like, oh 186 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: that's not true, that's not true, Like I happened to 187 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: build a website called facemash that was shut down, and 188 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: then a few months later created a website that was 189 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: pretty much the same thing called Facebook. Those are unrelated. 190 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: Obviously that's not true, but that's what he would tell you. Um, 191 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: And so yeah, the fact that that websites and platforms 192 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: like Facebook are harmful to young women should not be 193 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: a surprise because in fact, they were created on that 194 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,719 Speaker 1: arm like that is a big part of why they 195 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: exist in the first place. And reading this this expose 196 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: it really gets into the harm that Facebook has done 197 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: in terms of teen girls and young women. So trigger warning. UM, 198 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: you know this talks about eating disorders, suicide, depression, and 199 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: so that's something that is tough for you to hear about. Unfortunately, 200 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: that's a lot of what is going on. And you know, 201 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: this is really something that is sort of personal to 202 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: me because you know, I love the Internet. I love 203 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: being online and I always have. And when I first 204 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: got on the internet, like I'm old, so this was 205 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: the late nineties, I had so many different kinds of experiences. 206 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: Some of them were negative. You know, I was definitely 207 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: in chat rooms doing stuff I shouldn't have been doing 208 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: when I was young. But some of them were also 209 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: incredibly like liberating and self affirming, Like if not for 210 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: having the Internet in my in my bedroom and my 211 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: like small Virginia town, I wouldn't have known that I 212 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: was like that, I'm queer, I wouldn't have known, like 213 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: I don't know that I would be doing what I'm 214 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: doing today, or like even living the life that I 215 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: am living today, like that, like the Internet is what 216 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: allowed me to see myself and fully become myself as 217 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: an adult. And I keep thinking like this was and 218 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: so they're the ecosystem did not exist to have billionaires 219 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: making money profiting off of my negative experiences and negative feelings. 220 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: And I don't think I would have been able to 221 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: use the Internet as this tool of self discovery and 222 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: self affirmation had that been the case. And I really 223 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: do think that like the younger generation, they deserve to 224 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: have an online experience is not a marketplace for their pain, 225 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: for their negative feelings, and it does not incentivize them 226 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: to to be the worst versions of themselves. And I'm 227 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: really lucky that I came of age when I did, 228 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: when when there wasn't a marketplace for my pain as 229 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: a young girl. But today's generation, as these leaks really 230 00:12:53,280 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: really demonstrate is really not so lucky. I know we've 231 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: talked before about things like spawn Con and how these 232 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: big celebrities, usually women in this case, will you know, 233 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 1: try to sell these items that are all about being 234 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: thin usually and what I'm thinking of And if I 235 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: had been young and I had seen that and like 236 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: all these challenges people have about being super thin like that, 237 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: I know for a fact that would have impacted me. 238 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: That would have been something that I would have thought, Okay, 239 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: this is normal. I need to try to do that, 240 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: I need to look a certain way. And those messages 241 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: were already strong without that. I just know for certain 242 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: that it would And I am someone who I the 243 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: internet is. I love the Internet. I think it's a 244 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: beautiful place for a lot of things. And I know 245 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: when this Facebook outage happened, people were like, well, you know, 246 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: on one hand, celebrating, but we should also remember, like 247 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, marginalized people who connect that way and also 248 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: businesses that run that way, all these things. But it 249 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: just has become so for me, like I'm going to 250 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: feel bad about myself if I engage in this. It's 251 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: such a weird dichotomy to me because there's this one 252 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: group of you see things that I really wish I 253 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: had seen as as a kid. Like, so we're talking 254 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: about people being able to find themselves and not realizing 255 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: maybe there is a reason why you are this way. 256 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: Maybe that doesn't make sense that you're home, but there's 257 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: a community out there that can see you, that knows 258 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: you and and feels what you feel. But at the 259 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: same time, you have this other aspect of this untruth. 260 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: But like you're talking about this fake persona of happiness 261 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: that doesn't truly exist, and therefore if you haven't reached that, 262 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: or if you don't try to reach that, then you 263 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: have failed. So these two like vast differences is such 264 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: a heartbreak to me because like, yes, this is good, 265 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: but this is not good. So where do we fall 266 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: on this line? Because I'm not gonna lie. It wasn't 267 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: until after that I saw all the notifications that all 268 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: these things were down that I realized it was even down. 269 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, is that what happened? Okay, well 270 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: I just assumed me being me, my technology wasn't up 271 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: and going. So I moved on to whatever the next 272 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: thing was. But this conversation that we have when we 273 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: see how much of an influence and that is the influence. 274 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: There's no real middle ground, especially when we talk about 275 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: the younger generations about they're going to be influenced, whether 276 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: it's the positive side that they're on or the negative 277 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: side that they're on. They're on one of them. And 278 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine what that feels like today. And I'm 279 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: insecure as hell as an adult, so coming as a team, 280 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: trying to really figure out who they are and and 281 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: feeling like maybe their their home life isn't what they 282 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: want or what they need or is not healthy, and 283 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: then having to go to this spot, to the space 284 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: and you don't know what's safe anymore. And I think 285 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: about that with my nieces and nephew that I'm like, 286 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is what they're growing up with. 287 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: And I see that level of like, how do we 288 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: help them but at the same time not try to 289 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: pull away from the world, make them naive and not 290 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: be a part of the world. Such a weird thing. Yeah, 291 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you just articulated such a tension that I 292 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: feel as someone who loves social media uses social media, 293 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: but it is really clearer about these downfalls and these 294 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: negative aspects of it. It It can be used to find community, 295 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: feel less alone, you know, build movements, but it can 296 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: also be used in these incredibly damaging and negative ways. 297 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: And I think you really put it so well, say 298 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: this idea of like, you know, we know from from 299 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: this leak and from the Facebook, you know, Facebook's own 300 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: words and their own data that platforms, their algorithms really 301 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: do incentivize, you know, the negative, and so you see 302 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: more content that is polarizing or that makes you angry, 303 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: or that is insidiary rather than content that is like 304 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: positive or affirming or that kind of thing. Like algorithms 305 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: prioritize the bad. And I think that young people can 306 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: have all different kinds of experiences online, some of them good, 307 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: some of them bad. But there it's a problem when 308 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: platforms incentivize the bad, right when they traffic in the 309 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: bed when they promote and amplified to be so it's 310 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: not just like a neutral experience where whoever is using 311 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: the platform can decide if they want to gravitate toward 312 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,719 Speaker 1: experiences online that are going to be affirming and good 313 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: and you know all of that stuff or bad and 314 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: extreme and insidiary and polarizing. When you have an algorithm 315 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: that is prioritizing one over the other, which we know 316 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: that they are, and you know it's it's in putting 317 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: together the research for this episode. You know, I'm an adult, right, 318 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: I am a fully grown person, and I struggle with insecurity. 319 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: I struggle with, you know, self image. I struggle with 320 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 1: comparing myself to my peers. I struggle with all of 321 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: that stuff. And I'm a fairly like confident, secure person 322 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: when I was younger. I am so lucky that social 323 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: media wasn't the way that it was now when I 324 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: was younger, Like any you were just saying, like, I 325 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: know that that would have really been hard for me. 326 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: I know that I would have struggled. I know that 327 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: that that it just would have been a bad time. 328 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: It would not the internet would not have been a 329 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: place of self discovery. It would have been a place 330 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: where I went to think about all the ways that 331 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: I didn't measure up. And it makes me so sad 332 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: that that is exactly the experience that we are allowing 333 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: for young people today. Like that is just like their 334 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: experience of being online is one of you know, feeling 335 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: bad about themselves, and I hate that. I hate that 336 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: for them. They deserve. They deserve so much better, right, 337 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: And you know, as a person who again we've talked 338 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: about this is like being on the inside of seeing 339 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: what that damage can do. Being a part of a 340 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: force that worked with at risk ting trying to hold 341 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: people accountable, I can't imagine. So we have some of 342 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: these leaked documents that I know, and I've seen a 343 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: few tweets and articles talking about how these women specifically 344 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: have felt threatened and are filling at this point even 345 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: that now like, oh, this is dangerous. I have come 346 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: to dangerous grounds that with this happening internally, people have 347 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: had to know how has this allowed to happen? What 348 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: are they saying inside of this company that they're like whatever, Like, 349 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: how are they even trying to frame this? Yes, so 350 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: let's get into that. So one thing to note is 351 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: that a lot of this pertains to Instagram, but it's 352 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: important to note that Facebook owns Instagram. They take a 353 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: lot of steps to try to conceal that fact, but 354 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: they're the same company. And so here are some of 355 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: the findings from the Wall Street Journal expose a Since 356 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: at least twenty nineteen, Facebook has been studying the impact 357 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: of its platform on younger users. Their research has repeatedly 358 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: found that it is harmful to a large portion, especially 359 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: team girls. Here's a direct quote from a slide from 360 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: an internal Facebook presentation in twenty nineteen, we make body 361 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: image issues for one in three teen girls, and another 362 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: presentation they internally said of teen girls said that when 363 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them feel worse. 364 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: Another side said teams blame Instagram for increases in the 365 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: rate of anxiety and depression. They feel the reaction was 366 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: unprompted and consistent across all groups. And another League study 367 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: found that seventeen percent of teen girls say they're eating 368 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: disorders got worse after using Instagram. And you know so 369 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: this is from their own internal documents and the stuff 370 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: that they knew that they talked about with each other. 371 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: Facebook also internally is aware of the link between their 372 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: platform and things like the pression and suicide. According to 373 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: their internal studies. Of users who reported suicidal thoughts, percent 374 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: in the UK and six percent in the US traced 375 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: them back to Instagram. Another Transatlantic study found that more 376 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: than forty percent of Instagram users who reported feeling unattractive 377 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: said that they began feeling that way on Instagram. And 378 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: about a quarter of the teenagers who reported feeling not 379 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: good enough said it started on Instagram. And again, this 380 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: is not really like news news, because studies have been 381 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: showing that Instagram is like the most negative platform for 382 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 1: teams for a while. In twenty seventeen, is studied by 383 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: Young Minds and the Royal Society for Public Health show 384 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: that Instagram had the most negative impact on young people's 385 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: mental health of all the social media networks. And you know, 386 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: if you're thinking something like, oh, well, maybe this is 387 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: just a social media problem, maybe all social media platforms 388 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: are bad. You know, yes, all social media platforms have 389 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: their negative aspects, but these findings were specific to Instagram. 390 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: And so that's really because Instagram is one of the 391 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: only platforms that really sort of encourages what Facebook calls 392 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: quote social comparison. And so it's this thing where it's 393 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: like you are feeling pressure to compare your life to 394 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: someone else. And so think about a platform like TikTok, right, 395 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: Like that's a platform that is really kind of performance based, right, 396 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: it does not invite comparison the way that Instagram to us. 397 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: And so again, like I have definitely had times where 398 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: I wake up and I scroll Instagram and I see 399 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: all my peers and they're seemingly perfect lives, and I 400 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: put my phone down and I feel like crap. You know, 401 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: even as an adult, it's so easy to succumb to 402 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: this pressure that you have to be perfect and have 403 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: to show your best moments. But I think especially for 404 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: young people who are so impressionable, you know, it can 405 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: really morph into things like depression, self esteem, eating issues, 406 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: food issues, and we should not just be accepting that, 407 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: Like that should not just be like the cost of 408 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: those young people being on social media. It should be 409 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: imperative to create a social media experience that does not 410 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: profit off of these terrible harms our children, our kids. 411 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna lie. It makes me want to scream, 412 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: like what's the point of doing all of this research? 413 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: Obviously they wanted to know, but they haven't really fixed anything. 414 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: They haven't helped anything. As in fact, when we talk 415 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: about the spawn con the whole ideas, like they bring 416 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: on people, they spawn sort of people who make it 417 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: look easy and it takes incredibly hard to tell what's 418 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: real and what's not because half the things is like 419 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: this is definitely add but is it because they push 420 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: it forward and say, this is the ideal situation these 421 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: people's lives is what you should seek, and therefore we're 422 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: going to give you some help by you can allow 423 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: you to buy these things to meet that standard. It's 424 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: such a weird thing because they pushed this is a 425 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: part of their narrative. Oh absolutely, Like the expose showed 426 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: these internal like slack conversations and um whatever the Facebook 427 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: internal Slack version of slack is, I can't remember what 428 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: it is. But you have people at Facebook talking about 429 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: these these studies and these findings being like, oh, like, 430 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: isn't that the fun of Instagram? You know, comparing yourself 431 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: to other people and seeing how like the one percent 432 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: of like really hot people live like? You know, I 433 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: thought that was like the whole point, and the way 434 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: that they talk so callously about it, like, oh yeah, 435 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 1: isn't that what people want from our platform? To constantly 436 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: be comparing themselves to unattainable airror brushed, filtered versions of 437 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: a reality that could not possibly exist, you know, and 438 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: just like they're their inability to see how harmful that 439 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: would be. You know. I remember when I first realized 440 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: how often people are using filters and face tune and 441 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: things like that on their pictures, because I would see 442 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: these women where it's like, how is it possible to 443 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: have a waste that thin and a butt that nice? 444 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: How are you? How are you standing up and walking 445 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: around without falling over? It doesn't make sense? And I 446 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: was like, oh, it does it's not real. Doesn't actually 447 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: look that way. And let's not talk about the fact 448 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: that most of these people are white women are white community, 449 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: and so let's talk about being a person of color, 450 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: really being ashamed of being a person of color and realizing, oh, 451 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: it's still the standard to be white, to be small, 452 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: to be you know, young, this is the standard that 453 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: we should be attaining. To thank you one more time 454 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: of something that I can't change and be absolutely isn't 455 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: it interesting that when you use what platforms called beauty 456 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: filters on a non white face, the beauty filter pretty 457 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: much translates to like, oh, you made your lips and 458 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: nose thinner, basically made you look white, And it's like, oh, well, 459 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: so what are you trying to say? Like what is 460 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: really what are you trying to say? And I don't know, 461 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm I have a feeling you and I are in 462 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: the same boat because oftentimes these filters are like nothing changed. 463 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: I don't understand what's happening. You can't lighten my dark 464 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: brown eyes to be blue on what is this and 465 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: literally being confused about how they look that way? And 466 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, these are for white people, Okay, 467 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's that's kind of like not to 468 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: go off on a tangent, but like even that concept 469 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: alone is so harmful in tech, and it's so common, 470 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: Like they just came out with a new iPhone a 471 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and they are people I don't 472 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: have it. I still have my old Jankie, earlier model iPhone. 473 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: But apparently this is the first camera that can actually 474 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: take decent pictures of people with darker skin. And part 475 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: of me is like iPhone has been out since what 476 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: two pass and seven, and you'll finally realized that people 477 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: who are not white exist and for so long, if 478 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: you were someone who didn't have like light skin, to 479 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: get a decent picture of yourself on an iPhone, you 480 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: had to be meticulous about your lighting and your angles, 481 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: and if you weren't, you came out like a shadow 482 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: blob monster. And it's like, Wow, Finally, after all these years, 483 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: y'all have developed the technology that can just take my 484 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: photo and have it not looked wild, right, So I 485 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: can't imagine. I have a feeling that if we looked 486 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: at the percentage of young teens of color, the numbers 487 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: would be higher for those who are completely marginalized in 488 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: that within that community of seeing like, oh, I really 489 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: wish that I was not my ethnicity, you know, just 490 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: just being going beyond that that how uh, yeah, Facebook 491 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: is racist less added that to the caveat of not 492 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: only are these sexes, not only are they of fat 493 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: shame may not only do they have all of these things, 494 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: but yet they are racist as well because they have 495 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: again the standard of the white man who yeah, to me, 496 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: he is the villain in this story. Oh my god, 497 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: Marcus Zuckerberg is the villain. But also it's it's he's 498 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: the villain, but also Cheryl Sandberg like, like, there are 499 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: so many villains in this story, and I don't know 500 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: how Cheryl Sandberg has not been able to be like 501 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: the public face of villainry here. But it really is 502 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: like these people are knowingly making lots and lots of 503 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: money off of the pain and harm and sometimes the 504 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: deaths of our children. And it's just when I intellectualize that, 505 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: it's like, how is that okay? How? How is it 506 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: okay that, like people are getting rich off of harming 507 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: our kids. It's for all the different ways that we 508 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, protecting children and protecting you It's like, 509 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: here is a clear way that our kids are being 510 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: harmed and not just that people are making money off 511 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: of it, and we've just internalized that, like that's just 512 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: how it is, and it's completely unacceptable to me. Yeah, agreed. 513 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: Speaking of the villains of Zuckerberg, what are they saying publicly? 514 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: Like are they have they made any promises of change 515 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: anything at all? So this is where it gets juicy, right, So, 516 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: like all the different harmful things that they do, we 517 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: kind of knew about that before. It's new to know 518 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: that how much they knew in terms of their harm. 519 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: But they also say a completely different thing publicly than 520 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: they do internally at Facebook. And so when facebooks founder 521 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg testified before Congress in March, he said, the 522 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: research that we've seen is that using social media apps 523 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: to connect with other people can have positive mental health benefits. 524 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: So all of these leaks show he knew that wasn't true. 525 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: He knew all these different ways that his platform and 526 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: his product create harm, and he it seems to me, 527 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm no lawyer, it seems to me that 528 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: he was actively misleading both Congress lawmakers and the public 529 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: about what he knew. And we all know, you know, 530 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: Facebook as a history of really not being honest. Again, 531 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: if I were to list all the different examples will 532 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: be here all day. But one that I had like 533 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: like personal firsthand knowledge of is remember back in when 534 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: all these different publications were pivoting to video while basically 535 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: like that was based on Facebook really deeply exaggerating the 536 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: metrics of video, and so they were like, oh, video 537 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: is the thing. Video was getting so much more attraction 538 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: than any other kind of medium. And so at the time, 539 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: I worked in media, and so many of my coworkers, 540 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: so many of my colleagues, all lost their jobs at 541 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: media companies because of Facebook over in flay it and 542 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: exaggerated the metric of video content on their platform. And 543 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: so again, I'm no lawyer, but like, that's a lot. 544 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: This would not be the first time that Facebook has 545 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: misled the public and others about what's happening at their company, 546 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: saying one thing when another thing is actually when they 547 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: know another thing to actually be true. And I remember 548 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: that time in media, like Facebook made it so difficult 549 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: to like, I left media because I just felt like 550 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: media companies were capitulating to whatever Facebook said. And so 551 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: what Facebook said, it's video. If you didn't do video content, 552 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: you basically knew that you were gonna get fired. If 553 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Facebook said, like, we were just carring to the whims 554 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: of this massive company. And it's became so impossible to 555 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: do that work. And so you know, an entire generation 556 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: of journalists face such instability and kaas because Facebook misrepresented 557 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: their own findings. And so, according to Hagen's legal team, 558 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: Facebook executives, including Zuckerberg, misstay didn't omitted key details about 559 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: what was known about facebooks and Instagram's ability to cause harm, 560 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: and her attorneys also alleged that Facebook violated the US 561 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: securities laws by lying to investors. And again, like I'm 562 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: no lawyer, I'm no expert on this particular part of it, 563 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: but like when you say one thing and when you're 564 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: testifying to Congress when you know another thing to be true, 565 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: that seems like a problem. To me, I don't know, 566 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: I think that's lying. I don't know. I think so. 567 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: I think you're right. I know when it comes to 568 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 1: like stocks and stuff that is really really bad and 569 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: you will get arrested and fired because yeah, you just 570 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: made up in order to pretend like you have made 571 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: profit in order to make more profit exactly. Um, It's 572 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: it is really well to me, It's like and it's 573 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: one of these things where I feel like, I don't 574 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 1: know if it's capitalism or just like a nuance of 575 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,719 Speaker 1: living in a country like America where some things are 576 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: lies and some things are are true. And I think 577 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: that you kind of accepted that, like, oh, well, of 578 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: course a big business has to like misrepresent a few 579 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: things in public to make a buck. And it's like, wait, no, stop, 580 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: is that is that really how it should be? That 581 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: we should just allow that, like it's okay for businesses 582 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: to behave in this manner that it is literally killing 583 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: kids to make money. It's like, I feel like this 584 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: whole Facebook conversation is a good place for a hard 585 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: stop of what we will allow businesses to do without 586 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: any kind of accountability, right, And that's been a piece 587 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: of this conversation is when people talk about regulating Facebook 588 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: or how could we potentially deal with this problem, people 589 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: have brought up other industries and what they have done. Correct. Oh, absolutely, 590 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: So after all of this Facebook stuff was going down, 591 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: ad Amissary, the head of Instagram, who I have a 592 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: lot of few things about him. I won't get into 593 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: it now, but like, he just someone who because he 594 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: runs Instagram, I feel like, tries to have a kind 595 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: of quirky public persona, and it's like, well, your platform 596 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: is killing kids, So like I don't really care about 597 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: your quirky socks. But that's either heard nor there. Basically, 598 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: after all this went down, he went on the podcast 599 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: Recode and offered a really terrible but also very telling 600 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,239 Speaker 1: analogy in response to all of this. He said, we 601 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: know that more people die than otherwise would because of 602 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: car accidents, but by and large, cars create way more 603 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: value in the world than they destroy, and I think 604 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: social media is similar. So that analogy is wild for 605 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: a couple of different reasons. One, it's just like cars 606 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: that the car industry. We know that industry is incredibly 607 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: regulated by federal and state governments, right, Like I gotta 608 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: take my car in every so often to get it 609 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: inspected by the state, and they have to tell me 610 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: if it's okay. You know your car has to have seatbelts, 611 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: this that in the third that are all you know, 612 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: dictated by the state. And we know that, like the 613 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: auto industry had to be basically forced into adopting safety 614 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: measures that they knew would save lives. And so I 615 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: hate this analogy, But if that's the analogy he wants 616 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: to use, then it sounds like what he is saying 617 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: is like, Oh, we need to be heavily regulated so 618 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: that we don't harm people the same way that the 619 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: automobile industry is, right. It's like, what's funny is that 620 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: when he brought that up, the person who was interviewing 621 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: him was like, oh, well, you know the car industry 622 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: is very regulated, and he was like, well, you know, 623 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: we're open to regulation, but we can't have too much 624 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: regulation either, And it's like, well, what do you want. 625 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: You just want to be able to harm people for profits, 626 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: but no regulation whatsoever. Take my analogy, but don't really 627 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: take my analogy. Thanks right. Also, analogy often used in 628 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: comic books and has always turned around. So this guy 629 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 1: clearly doesn't know his X men, all right, exactly exactly, 630 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: Like I feel like once when you make that analogy, 631 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: you're opening yourself up to so many like you know, 632 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: uh gotchas and like balls, was like why I even 633 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: go there. But one of my favorite it folks in 634 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: the disinformation space, this amazing researcher from the Shorten Scene 635 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: Institute Harvard, Dr Joan Donovan. She's like one of my heroes. Um. 636 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: She actually has a much better analogy, which is big tobacco. 637 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: So we know the big tobacco companies, they knew internally 638 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 1: that their products caused cancer, yet they misled both lawmakers 639 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: and the public about it for a very long time. 640 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: And you know, that's why we had the Master's Settlement 641 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: Agreement in which led to some accountability for the tobacco companies, 642 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: you know, misleading the public about the link between tobacco 643 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: and cancer. And so this book is kind of doing 644 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: the same thing, misleading lawmakers and the public about the 645 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: harm that they already have demonstrated that they know their 646 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: product causes. And so I think that's a really useful 647 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: analogy because yeah, like should a company be able to 648 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: mislead lawmakers in the public about the harm they know 649 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: their product causes to make money. If you agree that 650 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: the big tobacco company should that have done that, it 651 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: seems like Facebook is doing something very similar as in fact, 652 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: is doing something just as similar in that the old 653 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: school campaign for tobacco were directed towards children and saying like, look, 654 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: how cool you are smoke And it's it's honestly like 655 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,479 Speaker 1: when I heard that comparison and blew my mind because 656 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: it's the same thing. Marketing towards young people, marketing towards women. 657 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: Like the way that Facebook and tobacco companies have harmed 658 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: these specific marginalized groups, groups that don't always get a 659 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: lot of attention or have the biggest platforms, you know, women, 660 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: young people, It is so similar. And I think that's 661 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: something that really really gets me about this whole thing 662 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: is that, you know, Facebook, We know now that Facebook 663 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: knew how harmful their product was to young people, and 664 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: yet they continued to try to market to young people 665 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: push it to younger and younger audiences. I think on 666 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: spenty months before I talked about how Facebook had had 667 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: plans to roll out a version of Instagram specifically for kids, 668 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: knowing that their product was already so harmful to young people, 669 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: and they continued to court younger and younger users, like, 670 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: straight up, Facebook does not care if kids are being hurt, harmed, killed, whatever, 671 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: if it makes them more money, and internal documents showed 672 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: that they had plans to market to kids who were 673 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: ten to twelve years old. They called tend to twelve 674 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: year olds a valuable but untapped audience, and another report 675 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: suggested that Facebook should look into a way to leverage 676 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: play dates to drive growth among kids. You know, it 677 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: is so vile that they knew that their product had 678 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: such a harmful impact on this young demographic, and yet 679 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: they continue to discuss how they could spread that harm 680 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: to kids younger and younger, right, because like, you gotta 681 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: be thirteen to even Instagram account, And they were like, well, 682 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: you gotta be thirteen to have an Instagram account, but 683 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 1: tend to twelve year old we really got to figure 684 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: out how to harm them too. And they're doing it 685 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: for money, they're getting rich off of it. Where it's 686 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: a skit. I've seen this skit before about this like 687 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: trying to I don't know if it was like suits 688 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: or something that they're like, but we haven't gotten to 689 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: the toddlers yet, so how do we market so like 690 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: diaper formal where was like the key and I was like, 691 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: what is happening? Is this real life? It's an Onion 692 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: article snl skit come to life. And I think it's 693 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: also hilarious and sad that you did. You completely talked 694 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: about this whole idea that Instagram had of trying to 695 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: get younger audiences essentially and younger buyers, and you talked 696 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: about the fact that y'all and went in It was like, hey, 697 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: bad idea. And this was even before these reports came out, Yes, 698 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: And I mean, if they already knew their product was 699 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: hurting young people to just try to further get that 700 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: lock on younger and younger communities, it's just I mean, 701 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: I I think it's just evil like that, Like that's 702 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: only like I think that Facebook is an evil company 703 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: and they are making money by spreading harm to younger 704 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: and younger folks, and it's just vile. But I think 705 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: it's also kind of telling because it kind of leads 706 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: me to believe that Facebook might not be as powerful 707 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: as we maybe once thought. You know, young people are 708 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: not really into Facebook. They use Instagram a lot more, 709 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: but like a regular Facebook, Facebook is where you go 710 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: to like see your weird old aunt's like nonsensical Facebook 711 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: posts or your dad's if you're if you're me, my 712 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: dad's Facebook post that just says the word test like 713 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: it's like not where you're going to have cool experiences. 714 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: And the fact that they filled the need to lock 715 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: in and market to younger and younger audiences kind of 716 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: makes me think that, like, maybe they're not as as 717 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: big as we think they are. They don't have as 718 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: much of a hold on certain demographics as they might 719 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: need to write into. Like social media companies that are 720 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: doing well don't need to aggressively find all these little 721 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: scams to lock in younger and younger users. And we 722 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: know something about Facebook is that there m O is 723 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: kind of I don't want to say stealing, but like 724 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: adopting things from other platforms that are more successful with 725 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: younger users. And so when Instagram rolled out stories like 726 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: disappearing stories, that was essentially, you know, them copying Snapchat, 727 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 1: which was very popular with young people. When they started 728 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: doing reels, that was essentially them copying TikTok, which we 729 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: know is very very popular with young people. And so 730 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: the fact that they're doing all of these little things 731 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: to lock in younger and younger users might actually mean 732 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: that their business model is suffering because they're not getting 733 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,399 Speaker 1: new user base. They would need to keep their their 734 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: platforms relevant and that like if they have an older 735 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: and aging user base, you know, that model is only 736 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: sustainable for so long. And it also means that maybe 737 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: they're kind of against the robes and we might actually 738 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: get somewhere in terms of creating accountability for the kind 739 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: of harm that we know they are spreading and mitigating 740 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: further harm, which I hope is accurate. I hope that 741 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,879 Speaker 1: like the fact that they're doing these like increasingly more 742 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,399 Speaker 1: desperate ways to court increasingly younger audiences means that they're 743 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: not actually as powerful a text bohemo as we might 744 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: have thought. Recently, we have seen you know, these bombshell 745 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: accounts and this whistle bower in Congress testifying, and it 746 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: seems like this is an issue that has touched people 747 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: across all lines and people can relate to and and 748 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: I care about, um want to do something about. Is 749 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: that a correct assumption? Oh? Absolutely, And that's actually one 750 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: of the things that kind of excites me and gives 751 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: me a lot of hope is that there is actually 752 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: rare bipartisan support for the idea that something needs to 753 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: be done about Facebook. Democrats and Republicans are actually very 754 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 1: much united with the idea of regulating Facebook. After this 755 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal expose came out on Upitol Hill, Hagen 756 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: testified at a hearing of the Senate Commerce, Science, and 757 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: Transportation Subcommittee on Consumer Protection, Product Safety, and Data Security. Uh, 758 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,839 Speaker 1: that's awful. And at this hearing after she testified, her 759 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: testimony was amazing, but Republican Senator Jerry Moran of Kansas 760 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,879 Speaker 1: told the subcommittee chair, Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat from Connecticut, 761 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: that they should put aside their partisan differences to tackle 762 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: this common goal of reigning and Facebook. And they agreed. 763 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: They agreed that they had more similarities than differences on 764 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: the issue and that the differences they did have were very, 765 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: very minor. And so Blumenthal said this about the testimony. 766 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: If you closed your eyes, you wouldn't know if it 767 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: was a Republican or a Democrat. Every part of the 768 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: country has the harms that are inflicted by Facebook and Instagram, 769 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: and I think it is really heartening to see an 770 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: issue where everybody's on the same side. It doesn't matter 771 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,479 Speaker 1: if you're Republican or Democrat. Everybody can agree that our 772 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: kids should not there should not be a marketplace for 773 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: the pain and the harm of our children, and then 774 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,399 Speaker 1: it needs to stop. And honestly, I think they're exactly right. 775 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: We should reject this idea that it's just okay for 776 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,760 Speaker 1: companies to be making profit off of hurting our kids. 777 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: Our kids deserve better. Um, I don't really care what 778 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 1: happens to the finances of Mark Zuckerberg or an Adam 779 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: Massari or CHERRYL. Sandberg if it means creating a safer 780 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: ecosystem for our children, and I think they deserve it. 781 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest, if they stop making money today, 782 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: they'd be fine. People. They will be fine. They'll be fine. 783 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: They have enough money, they'll be fine. Right. But Yeah, 784 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: I find it interesting that this is that conversation, that 785 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: this is the one thing that's tied everyone together, because yeah, 786 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: I think if you go to either side when it 787 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: comes to the controversial or even the conspiracy theory level, 788 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: the one thing you can agree upon is that the 789 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 1: other believes that the other is out to get them 790 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: and giving misinformation because of these social media Oh my gosh, 791 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: that is so true, and it's at be like in 792 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: working in like tech accountability. That's the thing that I 793 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,280 Speaker 1: always find kind of funny is that, like hardcore conservatives 794 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: believe they are being censored on Facebook, super progressive lefty 795 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: folks believe they're being censored on Facebook. Have you ever 796 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: seen that meme where it's a black hand and a 797 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: white hand, like like shaking hands and they both agree. 798 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,879 Speaker 1: It's like everybody kind of agrees they don't like what's 799 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: going down on a Facebook. It doesn't matter what side 800 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: you're on, what you know, we all agree we don't 801 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: like what's happening on a Facebook. It feels good to 802 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 1: be united against a clear common enemy. Speaking of tech accountability, 803 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we wouldn't know about a lot of this, 804 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: even though that we had kind of known, but we 805 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't have had like the hard data and facts if 806 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:53,800 Speaker 1: this whistleblower hadn't come out and taken that risk and 807 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 1: determined for herself, like we the people need to know this. Yeah. So, 808 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: like the import of whistleblowers for this whole conversation. Um, 809 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 1: And I know that's something that you have talked about before. 810 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I'm so glad that you brought 811 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: that up. I so obviously this is like bombshell news, 812 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: and I'm so glad that folks are discussing it. But 813 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: it is so important to not lose sight of the 814 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: fact that whistle blowers are really especially in tech, are 815 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: really important. On my podcast, there are No Girls on 816 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,439 Speaker 1: the Internet, we have a series highlighting women of color 817 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: whistleblowers in tech, and it does not surprise me that 818 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: so many whistleblowers are women and women of color, and 819 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: I think that it is so important to support them 820 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 1: and to highlight their stories. Um. One of my favorite 821 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: tech whistle blowers is one of them. Again, one of 822 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: my like heroes, Efoma Zoma. She blew the whistle on 823 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: gender and racial discrimination at the company Pinterest and just 824 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: actually passed groundbreaking legislation in California to free the victims 825 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: of racial and gender discrimination at tech companies from non 826 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: disclosure acts. So if you signed an ND but you 827 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: were the victim of discrimination you previously it could be 828 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: sued if you talked about that experience. But because of 829 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 1: this legislation, the Silent No More Act, she is actually 830 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: freed victims of discrimination up to talk about their experiences, 831 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: and so, you know, I would encourage everybody to you know, 832 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: you can listen to the series that we have on whistleblowers. 833 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,800 Speaker 1: But also in addition to listening to Frances Higgen's testimony, 834 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: make sure that you read about Sophie Saying story. You know, 835 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: I mentioned Sophia Saying earlier. She was a former Facebook employee. 836 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: She's a trans woman of color who was a previous 837 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: Facebook whistle blower, and she deserves so much praise for 838 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: the work of identifying harm that Facebook was doing when 839 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: she worked there, working internally to try to mitigate it, 840 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: and when that did not work, speaking up about it 841 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: after she left. And you know, whistle blowing is scary, 842 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: thankless dangerous work, and it's often the work of women. 843 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: And I think that it's work that is become even 844 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: more dangerous the more marginalized you are. So if you're 845 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: a woman, it's more it's more dangerous to do to 846 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: be whistle blower as a woman than as a man. 847 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: It is more dangerous to be whistle blower as a 848 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 1: woman of color than as a white woman. And it's 849 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,919 Speaker 1: more dangerous to be a whistle blower as a trans 850 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: woman than assist woman, right, And so whistle blowing is 851 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: not this like gender neutral, race neutral, identity neutral thing. 852 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: It really does take into account our identities. And so, 853 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, I've already seen these attacks on Hagen that 854 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: are like, oh, she must just be a disgruntled employee, 855 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: or she doesn't really know what she's talking about. Like 856 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: in their response, a Facebook comms person was like, oh, well, 857 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,959 Speaker 1: you know she never had any direct reports, she didn't 858 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: really worked on this, or that you know, really trying 859 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: to minimize her experiences in her voice, or saying that 860 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: she's just doing it for publicity or for money. And 861 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: it's like, people do not do the scary, thankless, dangerous 862 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: work of whistle blowing because they want to get a check, right, Like, 863 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: it is incredibly destabilizing to your entire life and often 864 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: your family life, to blow the whistle like this. And 865 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: so I think it's important that we remember that there 866 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: are women and women of color who risk so much 867 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: and take on such a huge personal cost to get 868 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 1: us this information. And I think we owe it to 869 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: them to do something about it once they do. And 870 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: the story, just what you were saying alone reminds me 871 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: of the Google employee you had brought to us as 872 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: well in that same like they just want to discredit 873 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,600 Speaker 1: instead of acknowledge the problems, and so many are used 874 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,839 Speaker 1: to discrediting women and women of color and women who 875 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: are marginalized in the LGBTQ community, Like it's just such 876 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,839 Speaker 1: ah almost by the playbook when it comes to the misogynist, 877 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: racist ideals of the US that unfortunately it's still kind 878 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: of works. Yes, I mean exactly, like the situation that 879 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: Google was tennant Tobru like she I think that it's 880 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 1: for a lot of women and women of color were 881 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: already seen as margin We're already marginalized, We're already seen 882 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: as like perpetual outsiders. And so when we speak up, 883 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,239 Speaker 1: when we practice public courage and public morality and say 884 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,399 Speaker 1: like this bad thing is happening and it's not great. 885 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: We should it shouldn't be happening, it's so easy for 886 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 1: people to discredit us, the crap on us, to say like, oh, 887 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: they don't know what they're talking about. Like, and I think, 888 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,880 Speaker 1: like it is so important that in the face of 889 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,720 Speaker 1: that that we support women who speak up. It's because 890 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's just there's already a an attitude waiting 891 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,839 Speaker 1: and ready and willing to suppress their voices. Absolutely, and 892 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: I thank you so much for bringing their names to 893 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: our attention and for bringing this topic to our attention. 894 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: And do you want to Are there any resources you 895 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: want to shout out? And also where can the good 896 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,360 Speaker 1: listeners find you? One thing I want to note is 897 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,280 Speaker 1: there are some organizations and initiatives that you can follow 898 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: if you're interested in knowing more, so can always check 899 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,799 Speaker 1: out my work at Ultra Violet. Um. We are a 900 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 1: gender justice organization, feminist organization that is really working to 901 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,920 Speaker 1: keep gender at the forefront of tech harms. You can 902 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,879 Speaker 1: go to we are ultraviolet dot org to find out more. 903 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,280 Speaker 1: And the Cairos Foundation is actually putting together a campaign 904 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,400 Speaker 1: asking folks to log out a Facebook this November. And 905 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: so if you're if you're someone who's thinking like, gee, 906 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,319 Speaker 1: I don't like what I'm hearing about Facebook, and I 907 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: want to do whatever I can to divest from Facebook 908 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,800 Speaker 1: a little bit more, check out caiross campaign this November 909 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: about how you can do that. And yeah, if you 910 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,799 Speaker 1: want to hear more conversations about women whistleblowers and this 911 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: women in tech who are trying to speak up and 912 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: trying to practice moral courage um and trying to act 913 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: as the conscious of tech platforms in the tech industry. 914 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,080 Speaker 1: You can check out my podcast. There are no girls 915 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 1: on the internet where we are having conversations about what 916 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 1: it means to practice that kind of public courage and 917 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,239 Speaker 1: public bravery in tech. So we would love to have you. Yes, definitely, 918 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: definitely go check it out. It's amazing. You can find 919 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: Bridget online. Also, it always feels so weird when you're 920 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: like this social media platform problems, but find me on 921 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: there if you pretty much, every like every like tech 922 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: accountability organization right now and activists but organized right now 923 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:21,759 Speaker 1: is going through the same thing of like, well I 924 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,319 Speaker 1: hate Facebook, but I'm on Facebook. What do I do? 925 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,240 Speaker 1: But if you want to follow me, you can follow 926 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,440 Speaker 1: me on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC and on 927 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:35,359 Speaker 1: Twitter at Bridget Murray. And you should thank you so 928 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,320 Speaker 1: much for being here, Bridget, it was a pleasure. As always, listeners, 929 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,319 Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us, you can our 930 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,040 Speaker 1: emails Stuff and your mom Stuff that I Hurt me 931 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: you dot com. You can find us on Instagram at 932 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,880 Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You or on Twitter at mom 933 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,919 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. It's always to our super producer, Christina, Thank 934 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:51,960 Speaker 1: you and thanks to you for listening stuff I never 935 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,759 Speaker 1: told you. Protection by heart Radio from more podcast in 936 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,760 Speaker 1: My heart Radio is the heart radio app, Apple podcast, 937 00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite ships.