1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: We live in a very strange moment in history, all 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: of us, but not just in the United States. But 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: I think all the world possibilities, dreams, fears, everything man 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: worried about a sudden annihilation of the species at the 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: same time untold possibilities because of new energy. 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 2: In the world. 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 3: Kind of sounds like a newscast from twenty twenty. Right, 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 3: This is the intro to Studs Turkle's radio show in 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one. His guest was the youngest commissioner ever 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 3: for the Federal Communications Commission, the FCC, and he'd been 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 3: raising hell about the corporatization of media. 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 4: The entire system as it is now constructed is a 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 4: sort of owned lock stock and barrel by big business. 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 3: Here's that same guy, Nicholas Johnson in twenty twenty. 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, media was very much top down. There were a 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 4: handful of major media corporations. Then we had growing merger 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 4: of various kinds of media that occurred and so forth. 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 4: But that was basically the model. So I was fighting 19 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 4: for what little cracks there were and that where we 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 4: could get a little public participation. Well, now there is 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 4: no similarity to what we had back then because Now 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 4: the real problem is kind of the overwhelming amount of 23 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 4: public opportunity. 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 3: That's the focus of today's episode. We've spent the past 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 3: several weeks looking at all the ways that industry has 26 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 3: tried to control and influence media, always being one step 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 3: ahead of what journalists expect today. We're going to look 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: at what can be done about it, especially in this 29 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: era where expanded access has had the opposite effect from 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: what Johnson was fighting for in the seventies. Instead of 31 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: giving the public mor say, it's made it that much 32 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: easier for industry to control and spin information. We're gonna 33 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: look at some key obstacles in the media, examine what 34 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 3: happens when journalists want something different from their bosses, and 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 3: look at the twisted relationship between the media and politics too. 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: We'll hear more from Johnson, and we'll hear from NYU 37 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 3: journalism professor j Rosen. 38 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 5: So now we're into something that's way beyond spin, way 39 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 5: beyond spin, where the red alert break glass problem for 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 5: real journalism is. Disinformation is itself like a political movement. 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 5: It's like a rights movement except for power. 42 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 3: It's like a rights movement except for power. That really 43 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 3: sums it up. All right, let's get into it. I'm 44 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 3: Amy Westerveld, and this is Drilled, Season three, the Madmen 45 00:02:52,000 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 3: of Climate Denio. Throughout this season we've looked at the 46 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 3: evolution of propaganda and how deeply intertwined it is with 47 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: the fossil fuel industry. You had Ivy Lee inventing the 48 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 3: press release and fake news, and then the American Petroleum 49 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 3: Institute more than one hundred years ago. 50 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 6: Mister Rockefella listened to me patiently, pleasantly and calmly until 51 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 6: I had finished mile upon presentation of why you should 52 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 6: do what we recommended. 53 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 3: Then came Edward Berne teaching tobacco companies and the American 54 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: Petroleum Institute how to co opt social movements. And Daniel 55 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: Edelman with the press tour and the lobbying, Herb Schmertz 56 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: inventing the advertorial and sponsoring all kinds of content, paying 57 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 3: off journalists and creating fake research groups, Howard Chase spinning 58 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: corporations is the real activists, And finally E. Bruce and 59 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: Patricia Harrison creating cross industry coalitions and infiltrating both environmental 60 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 3: groups and the media. All but one of these mad 61 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: men worked with big oil and big tobacco, often at 62 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 3: the same time. So when people talk about big oil 63 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 3: as the quote unquote new tobacco, that's not quite right. 64 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 3: It's the old tobacco. And more than that, it's the 65 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 3: original disinformation. The reason I bothered to walk through each 66 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 3: generation building on the tools and strategies of the one 67 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 3: before is that it's all brought us to this moment, 68 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 3: this critical point that Roseen hit on in the intro, 69 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: disinformation has become a movement unto itself. Today, we're going 70 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 3: to look at the role of the media and all 71 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 3: of this. The media has been a key tool for 72 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: the disa information industry, but it's also been an adversary 73 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 3: of it and a victim. And remember, this whole machine 74 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 3: was built initially as a response to journalism. Investigative journalists 75 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 3: were shining a light on the dark underbelly of American 76 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 3: business at the turn of the twentieth century, and business 77 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: needed to do something about it. They fought back, they 78 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 3: fought hard, they never stopped, and they've mostly won. Now 79 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 3: Here we are in the last battles of the Final War. 80 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: What will we do? Back in Season one, we spent 81 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: a bit of time on the fairness doctrine and how 82 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 3: much it annoyed the fossil fuel industry in particular. Here's 83 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 3: a little snippet of that, just so you remember. 84 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 7: Clintcize pretty quickly clinicized quotes or science that pret quickly 85 00:05:52,920 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 7: revealed itself to be also not science. And you know, 86 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 7: the agendas were clear from the beginning. 87 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: A great ally to oil companies and pushing this message 88 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 3: were the dozens of conservative talk shows that sprang up 89 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 3: in the nineteen nineties, and that happened because conservatives and 90 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 3: industry trade groups pushed the FCC to get rid of 91 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 3: the fairness doctrine. I wanted to talk to Nicholas Johnson 92 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: about this because he was at the FCC when industry 93 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: first started to really turn on the fairness doctrine, and 94 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 3: because people still debate whether the fairness doctrine was good 95 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 3: or bad, whether it had any real effect, whether it 96 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: actually curbed free speech in some ways. 97 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 4: Fairness doctrine did not forbid radio and television from doing 98 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 4: anything they wanted to do, but did say that once 99 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 4: you've done that, you have an obligation to give a 100 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 4: range of views on whatever that issue was. 101 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 3: It did lead a lot of stations to say no 102 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 3: to certain types of content, though Johnson says it basically 103 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: gave them cover an excuse to say not to stuff 104 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 3: they didn't want to do. 105 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 4: Some of the people in the journalism side of the 106 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 4: business pleaded with me to fight to retain the fairness 107 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 4: doctrine because it was the only way they could stand 108 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 4: up to the advertising folks who would come in and say, look, 109 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 4: we don't think it's a good idea that you're running 110 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 4: these bits about the fraud on the part of these 111 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 4: car dealers because we're losing a lot of advertising revenue. 112 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 4: They say, well, awful, sorry about that, but we're required 113 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 4: to deal with these controversial issues and to present a 114 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 4: range of views, so they kind of liked it. 115 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: One of this season's mad Men, Herb Schmertz, complained about 116 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 3: the fairness doctrine a lot because it was often the 117 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 3: excuse TV channels gave him for not running mobile advertorials 118 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 3: on their channels for not running mobile advertorials. But of 119 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: course Schmertz bey and Schmertz. He came up with an idea. 120 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 4: As a fellow with Mobile Oil, and I can't remember 121 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 4: him now, but I'm sure he. 122 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:10,239 Speaker 8: Has Schwirtz, who Herb Schmirtz, Oh, God bless Herb Schmertz. Well, 123 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 8: what Herb Schmertz said was, look, we so want to 124 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 8: get our message out there, we will pay for twice 125 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 8: the time we use and we'll give the other half 126 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 8: of the time to the environmental folks to attack us. 127 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: It's true Schmertz did do that. He offered to buy 128 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 3: environmental opponents like the Sierra Club ad time, and when 129 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 3: the channels still didn't go for it, of course, he 130 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: penned an advertorial in the New York Times about how 131 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 3: they were censoring him. Still, Schmertz ultimately thought the fairness 132 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 3: doctrine was good for media and for industry. Maybe he 133 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 3: thought it gave him a better shot at getting his 134 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: message out than nothing. We can't be sure, but he 135 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 3: did write to Congress in the eighties urging them to 136 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 3: keep the fairness doctrine in place. The Republican Party and 137 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: some media companies themselves not, but. 138 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 4: The advertising department and the management they fought it. 139 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: That fight kicked off in the nineteen eighties under Reagan. 140 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: By nineteen eighty seven, a decade after Johnson had left 141 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 3: the FCC, the Commission revoked the fairness doctrine and almost 142 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 3: immediately you saw an explosion in conservative talk radio. It 143 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: literally couldn't have existed before the fairness doctrine was revoked. 144 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 3: We're talking about it, of course, because conservative radio was 145 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 3: a critical tool in the climate denial toolbox. It was 146 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 3: a hotbed of climate denial in the late eighties and 147 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 3: throughout the nineties. And that's because industry strategists like Stephen Molloy, 148 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 3: who you heard from in that clip from season one, 149 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 3: specifically targeted the audiences of conservative talk radio with the 150 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 3: message that climate science was a hoax. Here's one of many, 151 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: many examples from Rush Limbaugh's show. 152 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: This is not the first kind of the story we've had. 153 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 2: We've had numerous stories in recent years. 154 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 9: About expeditions to Antarctica to study climate change, in global warming, 155 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 9: getting stuck in ice so thick that icebreakers couldn't even 156 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 9: reach them, and they were shocked, and they were stunned. 157 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: They believe their own nonsense that the ice at the 158 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: North and South Pauls is melting when it's not, it's 159 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: getting bigger. 160 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: Then you had Fox News explode on the scene in 161 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties and two thousands, and now we've got 162 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 3: a president who echoes their talking points. 163 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 5: So vam is talking about all of this with the 164 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 5: global warming under a lot of it's a hoax. 165 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 10: It's a hoax. 166 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 4: I mean, it's some money making industry. 167 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 5: Okay, it's a hoax. 168 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: He was like, now would be a real good time 169 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: to bring back the fairness doctrine, but Johnson says it's 170 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: unlikely to happen because politicians on both sides benefit from 171 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 3: its absence. It was also one of the last times 172 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 3: the US tried to tackle media policy head on. That's 173 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 3: something and YU journalism professor Jay Rosen really got me 174 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 3: thinking about. We'll dig into that right after this quick break. 175 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 5: Every nation has a media policy, a cultural policy that 176 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 5: lives in government because government is the state. It's like, 177 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 5: that's where public policy comes from. We have a fiction 178 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 5: in our country that are that Our tradition of media 179 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 5: policy is that we don't have any policy. We have 180 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 5: a free press. 181 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 3: This is Jay Rosen. He spends a lot, really all 182 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 3: of his time thinking about the state of journalism right now, 183 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 3: and one thing he thinks could help would be to 184 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 3: actually tackle media policy. 185 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 5: We have, in fact, had a media policy from the 186 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 5: very beginning until now. You could only have a republic 187 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,239 Speaker 5: over a small territory because it required the kind of intimacy. 188 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 5: But with improvements in communication and transportation, the United States, 189 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 5: which is much bigger than republics that we know of 190 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 5: from the past, could in fact still be a democracy 191 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 5: if we add to classic notions of democracy two things 192 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 5: political representation, voting systems, and communication systems. Right, so you 193 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 5: could have people who lived out in western Pennsylvania governed 194 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 5: in Washington, d C. Because we would have roads, post offices. 195 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 5: That's all part of media policy and free press with 196 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 5: postal subsidies another part of American press. Postal subsidies. What 197 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 5: is it is a fucking media policy. 198 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: These policies set at the federal level help get information 199 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: out to the public. They are indeed a media policy. 200 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 3: When Nicholas Johnson was at the FCC, he made it 201 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 3: a point to pass policy. In fact, he was behind 202 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: the next two examples Rosen gave me. 203 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 5: So the Corporation for Public Broadcasting was an example of that. Right, 204 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 5: it was added to the thinking of what American media was. 205 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 5: But unlike in other countries, has made like incredibly weak 206 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 5: with like no continuous funding source. Right, So that tells 207 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 5: you something that is definitely media policy. It's like, let's 208 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 5: keep this thing weak or I remember you, I'm not 209 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 5: sure hold you about it. You may remember this. When 210 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 5: I was in my teens in their early twenties, there 211 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 5: was something on our television called cable access television, yeah, 212 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 5: which was basically channels where anybody could put on a 213 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 5: television show. 214 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 10: Right. 215 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 3: I am, in fact old enough to remember this. Like 216 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: many of my peers in college, I took a stab 217 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 3: at making a weird public access TV show. What I 218 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: didn't know was that Nicholas Johnson is the guy who 219 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 3: made that happen. Here he is explaining why. 220 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 4: The cable television policy only, which they desperately wanted to 221 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 4: be unanimous, and I spent four seven years writing dissending opinions, 222 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 4: so they were afraid of what I was going to 223 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 4: do with it. Joint time ever sold my vote, I said, 224 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 4: I'll vote for it only if you will require every 225 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 4: cable television system in the country to make a channel 226 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 4: available for the public. 227 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: And so we had public access TV for a while 228 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: because Nick Johnson refused to sign off on policy for 229 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: cable TV without it. Unfortunately, the industry basically used it 230 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 3: as an excuse to get the public out of TV. 231 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 3: Here's Rosen again. 232 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 5: But the cable company didn't care because they weren't required 233 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 5: to put anything into producing them, right, And so that 234 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 5: like there's policy, right, the public part is totally unfunded. 235 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 5: And then you can say, you know, well, we've had 236 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 5: public we've had cable eye access. Nobody is interested and 237 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 5: wanted it. It's just stupid television shows. 238 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 3: The collective refusal of politicians and the media industry to 239 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 3: acknowledge that we even have media policy makes it difficult 240 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: to argue for new or different policies, which is a 241 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: real shame, because good media policy could fix a lot 242 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: of things right now. 243 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 5: We could solve lots of really difficult problems in our 244 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 5: media policy right now. Just by taking a percentage of 245 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 5: revenues from license sales, we could have a fund to 246 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 5: create little journalism and we could finance because the amount 247 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 5: of money, even though it seems like a lot for 248 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 5: our paltry newspapers, the amount of money we're talking about 249 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 5: to produce good information for the nation, it's not a 250 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 5: lot of money, and so not. What we have to 251 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 5: do now is we have to rethink that entire thing, 252 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 5: the whole system by which we fund journalism from the 253 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 5: ground up, and yeah, we have to keep our institutions 254 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 5: that we have going, but we have to come up 255 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 5: with complete new ones, and it is happening to some degree. 256 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 3: The problem there, of course, is that trust in journalism 257 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: is at an all time low, and that is by design, 258 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 3: certainly in recent years, by the Trump administration. Yes, but 259 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: the PR firms that created disinformation one hundred years ago 260 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: bear a lot of the blame too. Think about it. 261 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: Our mad men started out trying to wrest power away 262 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: from muckraking journalists and give a bit of it to 263 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 3: the industry. They wanted industry to have a hand in 264 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: shaping the public's understanding of the world, which would in 265 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 3: turn shape what sorts of policies they would go for 266 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: and ultimately what sort of society industry had to operate in. 267 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,479 Speaker 3: And they did it bit by bit. The press releases, 268 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: the advertorials, the front groups. They ultimately made sifting through 269 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 3: PR part of every journalist's job. They positioned themselves as 270 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: gatekeepers to the powerful, then accused any journalists who didn't 271 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: quote powerful CEOs and spokespeople of bias. It was a 272 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 3: brilliant way to get their people into the news. The 273 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 3: idea was first to grab some of that power hour 274 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 3: of the media for themselves and their clients, and then 275 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 3: ultimately to eliminate that power altogether. We're in the second phase, 276 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: that eliminating power part right now, here's Jay Rosen again. 277 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 5: Actually, serious news reporting is just one tributary of a 278 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 5: much larger stream. It doesn't even have the power to 279 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 5: correct the rest of the stream. 280 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 3: That was a deliberate move to create disinformation and chaos, 281 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 3: and the pr firms that created this strategy had been 282 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: testing it out on campaigns for big oil and big 283 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 3: tobacco for decades before it made its way into the 284 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 3: political realm. 285 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 5: I sometimes put the dividing line in political reporting in 286 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 5: two thousand and four, if you'll recall the where the 287 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 5: swift boat Veterans for truth? Remember that, Yeah. 288 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: You have any question about what John Carey's made up? 289 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 8: Just spent three minutes with the men who served with 290 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 8: him thirty years. 291 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 10: I served with Sean Curry with John Carey. 292 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 4: John Carey has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam. 293 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 10: He is lying about his record. 294 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 6: I know John Kerrey is lying about it. 295 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 5: So the previous cycles that would be the kind of 296 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 5: thing where early reporters to the campaign would check it 297 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 5: out because they'd want to know if it was going 298 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 5: to be an issue, is there anything here, right? And 299 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 5: then when they discovered that there wasn't much to it, 300 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 5: they would just say, well, that's not a factor. And 301 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 5: it wouldn't be a factor because the campaign discourse was 302 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 5: limited enough at that time where if the reporter said 303 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 5: it's not an issue, it's not an issue. 304 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 8: Right. 305 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 5: But two thousand and four, the Swift both Veterans for Truth. 306 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: Swift, both Veterans for Truth, is responsible for the content 307 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 2: of this. 308 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 5: Advertisement accident on the word truth right to just inflame. 309 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 5: The situation proved that they could smuggle their charge into 310 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 5: the campaign and it could start to wound him right, 311 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 5: and it would spread on its own even if the 312 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 5: we pressed it. I said, there's nothing there, and there 313 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 5: was like another power. Now we know a lot more 314 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 5: about that other power. 315 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 3: You could argue that by two thousand and four, environmental 316 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 3: reporters already knew a lot more about that other power. 317 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 3: Climate scientists certainly did. Here's National Weather Service hydrologist Brian 318 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: Mcinernie talking about experiencing this shift in climate science and 319 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 3: how people understood it. This moment where it went from 320 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 3: just reporters who kind of knew the subject matter talking 321 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 3: to scientists whose research was vetted, to a world where 322 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 3: Rush Limbaugh spouting industry propaganda was somehow considered an equal 323 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: and valid counterbalance. 324 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 10: When I first started doing this and I would talk 325 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 10: about climate change, it was like another subject like geology, hydrology, meteorology, 326 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 10: and it was well received. And then at some point 327 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 10: it got politicized, and then it got more difficult to 328 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 10: convey the science. I was on a radio show two 329 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 10: hours They called and said, can you come in and 330 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 10: talk about climate change? 331 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 8: Sure? 332 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 10: When it was Katok Radio six thirty am. I still 333 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 10: remember this so well. And it was two hours of 334 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 10: live TV and they broke the call record, and everybody 335 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 10: that called in was antagonistic toward me, nasty. This would 336 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 10: have been early two thousand somewhere in that ring, and 337 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 10: I was really surprised that it wasn't a mix of 338 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 10: calls or questions and you elaborate on the science. It 339 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 10: was all, let me talk to that tree hug and 340 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 10: do gooder kind of guy. And that's how the whole 341 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 10: interview went. And I got done. I was like, why 342 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 10: are they so angry? 343 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 3: Now? Reporters on every beat are dealing with this nonsense, 344 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: and it's a real problem for society and democracy, not 345 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: just journalists. Here's Rosen again. 346 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 5: That changes the calculus for journalists. It is not a 347 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 5: matter now of like just being a gatekeeper for your 348 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 5: part of dialogue. That's part of your job. But then 349 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 5: you have this other job of wait a minute, misinformation 350 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 5: is taking over, propaganda is taking over. Are you just 351 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 5: covering that or are you opposing that? And how do 352 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 5: you correct it? And how do you correct it? And 353 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 5: how should you stand towards it? 354 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 4: Now? 355 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 5: Those are really hard questions. 356 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 3: Rosen says, when he's thinking about these questions, he always 357 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 3: comes back to something Marty Baron, the legendary Washington Post editor, 358 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: said about the appropriate role of media in the age 359 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 3: of Trump. 360 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 5: But I keep writing about Marty Baron's sort of epigram, 361 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 5: we're not at war where at work. We're not at 362 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 5: war with the Trump machine, even though we know they're 363 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 5: trying to discredit us. Very intelligent remark. It also represents, 364 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 5: I think how most journalists think of it, Like, yeah, 365 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 5: that's right, we're not at war with you, We're just 366 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 5: gonna exactly, We're just going to keep doing our job, 367 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 5: keep our heads down. All this, right, which epistemologically modest things, right, 368 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 5: like just keep doing your job. And Marty Baron and 369 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 5: those who agree are right that it would be really 370 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 5: foolish and counterproductive to get caught up in a war 371 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 5: war where you literally are the political opposition to Donald Trump. 372 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 5: Then you've almost lost already because even if you win 373 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 5: that fight, you politicize the press. But at the same time, 374 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 5: it's a war, and there are people who want to 375 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 5: destroy you, and there are people who are down with 376 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 5: the undermine the press agenda. I don't have an answer, 377 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 5: a magic answer, like here's what they should do. I'm saying, 378 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 5: that's like a really difficult problem. And then on top 379 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 5: of that, we have the propaganda annoyance and confusion and 380 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 5: over sublime right and and torrential disinformation and chaos and 381 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 5: deliberate creation of chaos to both make the political situation 382 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 5: uncertain but also to undermine trust and the press right, 383 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 5: because if real people are talking about really crazy stuff, 384 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 5: the news becomes crazier even though it's accurate. And then 385 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 5: the crazier it gets, the more it repels regular people 386 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 5: who have other things to do in their lives, which 387 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 5: is a win for a certain kind of politics. 388 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,239 Speaker 3: Ultimately, Rose says this issue is likely to lead us 389 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: back to the whole problem that a free press was 390 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 3: supposed to kind of solve in the first place. 391 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 5: For many many people, whether it happened or not, is 392 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 5: that completely irrelevant. My own view is that journalism is 393 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 5: going to survive as a as a high trust product, 394 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 5: and the breadth or narrowness of the market for that 395 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 5: product will depend hugely on politics and culture, not just 396 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 5: the performance of the press. So it'll always be there 397 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 5: for our minority, especially if we include like a rich minority, 398 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 5: like people can pay a lot, they will definitely have news. 399 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 5: It'll be and the people who give it to them 400 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 5: will definitely ask did this really happen or was it 401 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 5: a right wing fantasy? Right? And that'll be foundational to 402 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 5: how do they do their journalism. But it will be 403 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 5: not only will it be a minority product in the 404 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 5: sense that a small market pays for it, but the 405 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 5: high price of the of the good will reflect how 406 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 5: valuable it is for an elite only to have that knowledge. 407 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 5: You see, ye that it's almost going back to the beginning. Yes, 408 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 5: and the fewer of the fewer of people who are 409 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 5: informed the better. 410 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 3: For centuries, Americans have trotted out that quote about how 411 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 3: democracy depends on a well informed citizenry. But what Rosen 412 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 3: is talking about here brings us right back to the 413 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 3: days of Ivy Lee and Edward Bernese. This idea that 414 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 3: the public, the unwashed masses, can't really be trusted to 415 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 3: make decisions on their own. They need to be manipulated, controlled, 416 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 3: or chaos will ensue. In fact, the opposite is true. 417 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: Those attempts to control the minds of the public, they've 418 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: delivered the ultimate chaos. It's a world undone, a world 419 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: in which no one knows what or who they can trust, 420 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 3: especially as we face pandemics and catastrophic climate change. Human 421 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 3: societies depend on trust, on at least a few shared 422 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 3: ideas about how things work. In service of profits, industry 423 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 3: has unraveled even that most basic concept of society, and 424 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: now we need to figure out how to take it back. 425 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 3: That's it for this time and for this season. Thank 426 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 3: you for joining us again. I really appreciate it. If 427 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: you find this kind of reporting valuable, please consider supporting 428 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 3: our Patreon It's at patreon dot com slash Drilled, and 429 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 3: we'll link to that in the show notes too. I 430 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 3: hate doing this kind of stuff. I really hate asking 431 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: people for money. I'm the world's worst salesperson. But here's 432 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: the thing. I've been testing out grant funding and advertising 433 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 3: the past couple of years, and honestly, it all makes 434 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 3: me a little uncomfortable. I have a lot of mixed 435 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 3: feelings about advertising. I mean, witness this season, but it's 436 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 3: also been my experience that foundations will try to exert 437 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 3: influence too. Ideally, I'd like to be accountable to listeners 438 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 3: and readers, to the public, to you guys. One of 439 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 3: the reasons that I started Drilled on my own is 440 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 3: that I was struggling with some mainstream media outlets not 441 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 3: wanting to look critically at media's role in all of this. 442 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 3: So it was important to me to do accountability reporting 443 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 3: that looked at every single thing. And the only way 444 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 3: that I think I can really do that, the way 445 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 3: that I want to do it, is to be responsible 446 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 3: only to the people consuming the information. I don't, unfortunately, 447 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 3: have a trust fund. On top of having you know, 448 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 3: rent to pay, I'd like to pay for some additional reporting. 449 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 3: There are many, many more investigations that we'd like to 450 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 3: bring you in this show, on our website and in 451 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 3: our newsletter. Any support you can give will go directly 452 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 3: towards that. As a member, you will get ad free episodes. 453 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: You will also get early released episodes and some behind 454 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 3: the scenes content for members only, so check that out 455 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 3: and support us if you can. I realize these are 456 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 3: very uncertain and scary times, so trust me when I 457 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 3: say that I do genuinely appreciate any bit of support 458 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 3: we get. Okay, sales, pitch over. We'll be back in 459 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 3: a few weeks so with a mini series highlighting a 460 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 3: project that we've been co reporting with HuffPost about the 461 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: influence the fossil fuel industry has had in schools and 462 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 3: not just in science class. You won't want to miss 463 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: that series, so make sure you're subscribed. It's totally free 464 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 3: to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, all 465 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 3: of those apps. You can also listen on our website 466 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,959 Speaker 3: anytime at drillednews dot com, Slash podcasts. Thanks again, and 467 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 3: we'll see you soon. Drilled is produced and distributed by 468 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 3: Critical Frequency. The show is reported, written, and produced by 469 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 3: me Amy Westervelt. Our editor is Julia Ritchie. Our editorial 470 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 3: advisor is Raka Murphy. Sound design and score by b Beman. 471 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 3: Katie Ross created the amazing artwork for this season. The 472 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 3: tape of Nicholas Johnson being interviewed by Studs Turkle in 473 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one comes from the Studs Turcle Radio archive 474 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 3: from WFMT Radio. Highly recommend checking out that archive online. 475 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 3: There are some real gems in there. It's at Studsturcle 476 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 3: dot WFMT dot com. Special thanks to our First Amendment Attorney, 477 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 3: James Wheaton and the First Amendment Project. Drilled is made 478 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: possible in part by a generous grant from the Institute 479 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 3: for Governance and Sustainable Development. We appreciate their support. You 480 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 3: can find Drilled wherever you get your podcasts. Remember to 481 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: leave us a rating or review. It really helps people 482 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 3: find the show. You can follow us on Twitter at 483 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 3: we are Drilled, and visit our website drillednews dot com 484 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 3: for more reporting on this subject and behind the scenes 485 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 3: stories from this season. Thanks for listening and we'll see 486 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 3: you next time.