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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, everyone, it's Katie here. You're about to hear

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Speaker 1: a bonus episode interview with the artist Audrey Flack, who

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Speaker 1: we spoke to at the very beginning of this series

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Speaker 1: in episode one. We had such fun recording with her.

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Speaker 1: Audrey is a life force. But sadly, a few months

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Speaker 1: after we launched Death of an Artist, Audrey's studio manager

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Speaker 1: contacted me to tell me that she had passed away

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Speaker 1: at the age of ninety three in Southampton, New York.

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Speaker 1: Audrey lived an incredible life and I feel so lucky

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Speaker 1: to have spent time with her and honored that I

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Speaker 1: can share some of her memories from the art scene

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Speaker 1: with you today. Okay, so Audrey, please, can you introduce yourself?

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Speaker 1: You are and what do you do?

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Speaker 2: Well? I don't want to do that. You should do that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's leave that.

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Speaker 2: You know you should say, here's Audrey flat and she's

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and she's an ancient person.

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Speaker 1: This is Audrey Flack, and this bonus episode is a

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Speaker 1: conversation we had when my producer, Clem Hitchcock, and I

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Speaker 1: went to visit her in New York. Her Upper West

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Speaker 1: Side home slash studio was filled with her photorealist paintings

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Speaker 1: and sculptures of ancient women, from Madea to Meducer. You've

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Speaker 1: been hearing snippets of our conversation throughout the show. It

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Speaker 1: was one of my favorite interviews that we did. In fact,

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Speaker 1: after we finished, I just wanted to keep hanging out

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Speaker 1: with her, and there's so much of her story we

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Speaker 1: couldn't fit in. So that's what we're going to do.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Spend a bit more time in the extraordinary world of

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Speaker 1: Audrey Flack and the downtown art scene from the mid

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Speaker 1: twentieth century.

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Speaker 2: What was it like the scene? It was so exciting,

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Speaker 2: it was throwing. You knew you were part of something,

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Speaker 2: and it was very pure.

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Speaker 1: Flack has been an artist for seven decades encounting. She's

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Speaker 1: a writer too, and just released her brilliant new memoir

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Speaker 1: with Darkness Came Stars. And she's a musician. She plays

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Speaker 1: banjo and lead vocals in a band called Audrey Flack

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Speaker 1: and the History of Art Band. More on that later,

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Speaker 1: but let's start at the beginning. Audrey Flack was born

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Speaker 1: in May nineteen thirty one.

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Speaker 2: It came from a very bourgeois family, very middle class,

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Speaker 2: and we were Jewish.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen forty eight, she enrolled in an art school

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Speaker 1: called Cooper Union.

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Speaker 2: Cooper Union was in the heart of abstract expressionist territory

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Speaker 2: Eighth Street and Astro Place, so I was right there,

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Speaker 2: heart of this hurricane.

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Speaker 1: Abstract Expressionism, or ABBEX for short, is a term loosely

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Speaker 1: applied to a group of artists working in New York

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties and fifties. Lee Krasner, Jackson Pollock,

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Speaker 1: Helen Frankenhaler, William Da Kooning, Grace Hartigan, and Audrey was

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Speaker 1: one of the young artists on the scene.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting realism was frowned upon, it was looked down

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Speaker 2: as something lesser. From the moment I hit Cooper, that

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Speaker 2: was abex. The whole world was abex, The whole downtown

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Speaker 2: was abex. And people were coming over from Europe to

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Speaker 2: be around Eighth Street, tenth Street, ninth Street, right where

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Speaker 2: Cooper was.

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Speaker 1: These artists were part of a community. They put on

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Speaker 1: shows together, talked about the future of art, and last

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Speaker 1: but not least, they drank together.

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Speaker 2: You know, I would have wine, but they were drinking scotch,

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Speaker 2: little little shots of scotch with a beer chaser. So

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Speaker 2: the Scotch would go down in one gulp, and then

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Speaker 2: the beer and then they put a lemon or something

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Speaker 2: in it. Sometimes I put on a good show, but

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Speaker 2: it wasn't my style.

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Speaker 1: Audrey told us that there were two places that the

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Speaker 1: abstract expressionists all went to hang out. First, the Waldorf Cafeteria.

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Speaker 2: It was the most gloomy, awful decrepit. You know, you

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Speaker 2: look like you were embombed if you went in there.

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Speaker 2: But we would go there and you could have a

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Speaker 2: cup of water and put ketchup in it and that

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Speaker 2: was your tomato soup. You could save money. And that

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Speaker 2: was a few blocks from the Cedar.

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Speaker 1: The Cedar was the hard drinking tavern where the artists

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Speaker 1: would have raucous debates about art and where as we

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Speaker 1: learned in episode one, Audrey first met Jackson.

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Speaker 2: The Seedo was, you know, the place that everybody went smoky, crowded.

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Speaker 2: In the front there were cubicles, little seats with where

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Speaker 2: people could sit and it was always jammed, and then

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Speaker 2: there was a bar with stools along the edge of

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Speaker 2: Jackson liked to sit towards the back.

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Speaker 1: Everyone was there. Artists tailed for their action like brushstrokes.

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Speaker 1: Joan Mitchell William Da Kooning, Franz Klein to name a few,

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Speaker 1: plus writers Jack Carrouac and Alan Ginsburg stopped by.

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Speaker 2: When Jackson and billdy Cooney and Franz kleinb showed up

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Speaker 2: all you know, one at a time, but three of

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Speaker 2: them were there. There was like a hush. I mean,

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Speaker 2: everybody knew that you were in the presence of greatness.

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Speaker 2: It was like a jack It was like, wow, they're here,

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Speaker 2: you know, and then arguments would break out. Sometimes people

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Speaker 2: would shove and push. It was scary for a girl,

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Speaker 2: you know, mind her, I'm like eighteen. It was male dominated,

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Speaker 2: there was no doubt about it. It was an old

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Speaker 2: boys club.

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Speaker 1: I've heard descriptions like this before. Lee Krasner once said

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Speaker 1: it was where the women were treated like cattle. Most

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Speaker 1: women artists avoided it. But it wasn't just the cedar

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Speaker 1: that was like this. The whole art scene was very

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Speaker 1: male in its vibe. But of course there were women

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Speaker 1: at the heart of it. Audrey knew them all and

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Speaker 1: told me some great stories.

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Speaker 2: On the scene was John Mitchell, who I thought it

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Speaker 2: was some absolutely marvelous artist.

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Speaker 1: Born in Chicago a few years before Audrey. Joan Mitchell

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Speaker 1: was known for her lossal canvases full of energy, action

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Speaker 1: and dynamism. She arrived in New York at the end

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen forties, where she remained for a decade

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Speaker 1: before settling in France. Unlike many other Abbe's artists, Mitchell

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Speaker 1: looked back to the nineteenth century French painters, and her

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Speaker 1: spectacular canvases often reflect the palette of the likes of

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Speaker 1: Claude Monnet. To me, her greatest strength was transforming oil

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Speaker 1: paint into gusts of light and movement.

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Speaker 2: I loved her work. I think she's one of the

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Speaker 2: best artists, and I thought so.

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Speaker 1: Then then there was Grace Hartigan.

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Speaker 2: Grace and I became good friends.

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Speaker 1: It was her work The Persian Jacket that looked back

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Speaker 1: to the Spanish Old Masters. She used cheap industrial brushes

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Speaker 1: for her bold, sensuous strokes.

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Speaker 2: Elaine dy Kooning, who was absolutely brilliant, smoked like a

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Speaker 2: chimney and drank or so.

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Speaker 1: Elaine was also one of the first people to write

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Speaker 1: about these artists in the publication Arn't News. Although working

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Speaker 1: in an abstract vein, she was famed for her portraits,

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Speaker 1: notably of sports stars and politicians, including John f Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: Oh Helen frank Nzaler, who did not go to the bar.

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Speaker 1: Frankenhaler pioneered what is known as color field painting. Instead

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Speaker 1: of using action like gestures like the other Abex painters,

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Speaker 1: she developed a technique called soak stain. She put the

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Speaker 1: canvas on the floor, thin down the paint and let

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Speaker 1: it glide over. The results were multi layered pools of

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Speaker 1: spontaneous organic forms.

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Speaker 2: These women felt that they had to be as tough

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Speaker 2: as the men, and tougher than the men to survive,

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Speaker 2: and they adopted male behavior. They suffered. Who else whom

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Speaker 2: I leaning out? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Lee?

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Speaker 2: Of course Lee didn't go to the bar.

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Speaker 1: So tell us about Lee Krasner. I mean, what do

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Speaker 1: people think of her? What was her reputation? What was

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Speaker 1: her involvement?

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Speaker 2: Well, she was like the Diane. Lee was in love

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Speaker 2: with Jackson. One of the things that I was always

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Speaker 2: almost shocked by is when they got the house, there

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Speaker 2: was a barn on the property and you went into

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Speaker 2: it because that was Jackson's studio. Right, did you see

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Speaker 2: where Lee painted at first? Weren't you shocked? Yes, you're answering.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I visited last year and it was worlds away

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Speaker 1: from Jackson's vast studio in the barn.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have done that. You wouldn't have done that.

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Speaker 2: You have to have enough self respect us an artist,

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Speaker 2: and she was already an established artist, more so than he,

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Speaker 2: And so she paints in this tiny little bedroom upstairs.

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Speaker 2: My god, you know it was a place to sleep,

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Speaker 2: even with a single bed, not even a king sized

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Speaker 2: bed would fit in it.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk to us about Jackson's reputation and also

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Speaker 1: your encounters with him and what he was like.

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Speaker 2: I think about him all the time and I try

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Speaker 2: to reevaluate those times why his work was great? Was

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Speaker 2: his work great? No, Jackson, when he starts dripping, is

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Speaker 2: no longer a painter. He's not painting a painting. He's

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Speaker 2: not dealing with space spacial relations in that way. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's not dealing with color relationship. He's not painting. He

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Speaker 2: becomes somebody who takes on an entire scope of the

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Speaker 2: world and makes galaxies. And when you enter a Pollock painting,

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Speaker 2: you're entering out of space. You're going through ropes and

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Speaker 2: nuts and tangles of galaxies. Something magical.

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Speaker 1: Do you talk to us a bit about Ruth Kligman

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Speaker 1: and who she was and how she got together with Jackson.

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Speaker 2: I'm working for a gallery and I'm curating a show.

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Speaker 2: Ruth claps up five floors in her high heeled shoes,

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Speaker 2: climply clop, you could hear her, and comes into my apartment.

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Speaker 2: And Ruth was unbelievably sexy. It just reeked, it reaked.

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Speaker 2: And she was wearing a ray on dress, polka dot dress,

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Speaker 2: I think. And she had thick black hair and sunglasses,

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Speaker 2: white rimmed sunglasses and red lipstiff. I mean, she was fent.

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Speaker 2: She looked like Elizabeth Taylor. She was really knockout. And

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Speaker 2: she came in and said she has an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: curate a show for this gallery, the Collector's Gallery, and

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Speaker 2: wanted to look on my work. And she began talking

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Speaker 2: about my work. It was amazing. She really had a

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Speaker 2: good eye and an ability to talk that mesmerized you,

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Speaker 2: which she must have done to Jackson. She really got

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Speaker 2: him and she was good. I would have bought my

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Speaker 2: work if I heard her talking. You know, how did

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Speaker 2: she meet Jackson? Okay, so then she didn't know much

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Speaker 2: about the art world. She was from New Jersey. Thinks

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Speaker 2: took one or two art classes. She didn't know very

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Speaker 2: much teach me, so I would teach her what's going on.

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Speaker 2: I said, well, there's a movement called abstract Expressionist. Who

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Speaker 2: are the artists? I told her? She said, in what order?

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Speaker 2: Who is the most important? I said, I think, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I love Dacooning, but I think I'd have to say

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Speaker 2: Jackson first, then Decooning, and then Franz Climb. So then

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Speaker 2: she said where do they meet? I said, Licita Bar,

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Speaker 2: where is it? Well, it's on Eleventh Street and University.

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Speaker 2: So I drew a map. I walked down the stairs

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Speaker 2: with her and I watched her, you know, I waved goodbye.

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Speaker 2: She wiggled her little cute body and waved goodbye with

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Speaker 2: the paper in her hand, and I told her where

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Speaker 2: Jackson sat. That was it.

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Speaker 1: I found it so incredible how Audrey has such vivid

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Speaker 1: memories of all those characters she knew more than half

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Speaker 1: a century ago. It really felt like being transported back

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Speaker 1: to that nineteen fifties scene in all its creative and

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Speaker 1: unhinged glory. She still thinks about their stories today and

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Speaker 1: has even written songs about some of them, including one

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Speaker 1: about Jackson.

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Speaker 2: I have a song you know my band. I wrote

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Speaker 2: a song about it. I had a band, History of

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Speaker 2: Art band, which was a feminist band, by the way.

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Speaker 1: Now to finish it off, here's Audrey Flack and the

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Speaker 1: History of Art Band playing their song Action Jackson Jackson power.

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Speaker 3: That's my name. Abstract painting brought me fame. I sell

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Speaker 3: my paintings one by one, and I get drunk when

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Speaker 3: I am done. Oh Jackson, Action Jackson, Well, I'm ripped

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Speaker 3: by sneer Denis malnerin lands everywhere. It just doesn't matter.

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Speaker 3: I'm Action Jackson, jack Dripper. I get drunk when I

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Speaker 3: take Zipper.

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Speaker 1: Death of an Artist Krasner and Pollock is produced by

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Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and samasdat Audio. Clem Hitchcock is our producer.

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Speaker 1: Story editing by Dasherlitz at Sina, Sophie Crane and Karen

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Speaker 1: Schakerji from Pushkin. The executive producer is Jacob Smith from

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Speaker 1: samasdaut Audio. The executive producers are Dasherlitz at Sina and

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Speaker 1: Joe Sykes. Sound design by Peregrine Andrews. Original scoring and

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Speaker 1: our theme were composed by Martin Ustwick. Fact checking by

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Speaker 1: Arthur Gompertz. Special thanks to Jacob Weisberg. I'm Katie Hessel,