WEBVTT - We Get Nothing 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.720 Good morning, Keeps, and welcome to wok Up Daily with 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:19.560 your girl. Danielle Moody recording from La because I'm out 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.120 here for a wonderful board meeting with the Miss Foundation, 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.520 whose board I sit on. If you don't know anything 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.880 about the Miss Foundation for Women, you should look them up. 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:33.640 They are supporting an organization that supports women and girls 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.519 of color in particular at this moment in time, and 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.760 do wonderful grants to organizations that are working on behalf 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.920 of women and girls of color in a range of 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:49.840 different ways. Folks, let me start out by saying that, 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:55.080 you know, the other day, I was on the plane 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:00.080 traveling out here to California from New York, and I 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.360 found myself completely and utterly off the grid, right. I 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:06.600 decided not to pay for the Wi Fi on the plane, 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.840 and I'm looking around and everybody's complying with the MASK mandates, 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.640 and you know, all is moving well. Land in California. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.320 Decide to turn on Twitter after not being online for 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.840 about five hours, and come to find out that the 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:29.200 build back better. The three point five trillion dollar Infrastructure Bill, 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:34.959 which was supposed to incorporate both buildings and roads and 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.039 bridges and broadband and traditional ideas of what we believe 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.640 as infrastructure, as well as what it takes to have 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.560 human infrastructure, meaning you know that Americans are essentially cogs 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.080 in the capitalistic machine, and what does it take to 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.160 have workers right and to have people have the ability 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.320 to enter into the workforce because they have things like 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.000 paid family leave, paid medical leave, They have things like 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.800 support in cost of childcare so that women don't have 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.560 to leave the workforce in high numbers because guess what 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.280 their employers would be supporting childcare. Because we know that 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.840 even in heteronormative circumstances, right, that it is women right. 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.040 Even if we want to believe that the world has changed, 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.800 it has not, and the pandemic showed us this that 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:29.880 it is. Oftentimes, when the sole responsibility of childcare ends 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.000 up being on the family, it is women who end 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.600 up having to leave the workforce to care for those children. 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:37.920 And then we create a society in an environment that 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.440 does not welcome them back in. And as a matter 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:42.440 of fact, looks at any gaps that you may have 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.560 on your resume, and if you were to dare to 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.480 say that, oh, I had left my last job but 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:51.079 then decided to have two beautiful children and then want 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.680 to come back five years later. They look at that 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:59.720 as if you are lazy, you are a problem, right, 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.959 And what does that mean for your productivity down the road? 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.440 Are you going to have to leave for parent teacher conferences? 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:07.400 What if the kid gets sick, I might as well 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:11.680 get somebody younger, cheaper, without kids, not married, who I 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.919 can work to death. Right. So these are the types 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.239 of issues that were a part of what the Biden 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:23.680 administration was referring to as their human Infrastructure Bill. And 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.000 come to find out that when I got off of 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.160 my flight from New York to LA that Senator Mansion 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.079 decided that, among other things, he was going to take 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:39.000 out the medical leave, take out the paid family leave, 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.640 take out the childcare costs, because you know what, he 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.160 doesn't like the size of the infrastructure bill. It's just 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.520 too big. And then also, guess what, even though the 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.400 Democrats have created an opportunity for us to have a 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.360 billionaire tax, you know, for these people who do not 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.360 get taxed through income but get taxed through other means, 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.640 to be able to pay their fair share and so 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.080 that the burden doesn't fall on the rest of us 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:10.160 middle class and lower income people and the poor that oh, 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.040 he doesn't like that either, even though according to many 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.640 reports and on Twitter, there are no fucking billionaires in 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.240 West Virginia, but there are, of course billionaires the heads 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.800 of corporations that are giving Joe Mansion his money and 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:29.040 his leash apparently. So the reality is that we are 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.680 getting nothing. We are getting nothing. And a couple of 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:38.960 people had tweeted and said this at this point, what 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:44.600 is happening is just cruel and disgusting, and I said, yeah, 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:46.520 I mean, I know that I say these things on 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.840 a relative on a regular basis on woke AF, I 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.480 talk about how disgusting, how despicable. And I realized that 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.240 at the end of the day, that's really just me 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:57.839 blowing off steam because it's not as if these people 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.719 Joe Mansion, Kursten Cinema, who, by the way, was on 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.960 the floor of the Senate and a denim vest, like 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.760 first of all, A, it's not the nineties and b 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.240 professionalism much and see, no, I'm not talking about respectability 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.279 politics and as it pertains to dress. But what I'm 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.760 saying is is that if she were not a white 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:23.040 woman rocking a denim vest on the floor of the Senate. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:28.880 Then the amount of commentary that would have proceeded, how unprofessional, 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:34.279 how uncouth, how not ready for prime time this person is. 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.960 And you know, I got to tell you that it 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:42.200 reeked of white privilege. It reeked, reeked of it, and 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.080 it was disgusting. It was a disgusting display. But I digress. 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:50.400 The fact is that many people are saying, well, you know, 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.479 because they're already preparing themselves for the loss that we're 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.359 getting ready to have, right because we're not getting the 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.960 three point five trillion dollar deal. We're not getting the robust, 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:05.000 transformative new deal that everybody kept talking about. No, we're not. 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:10.440 And the reality is is that Joe Mansion is a 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:15.120 piece of shit. And here's what one of our friends, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.600 a friend of the show and a member of WIKA 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.200 Nation is Zach Bacantis had said. He said, even a compromise, 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.800 build back better deal would be as historic and impactful 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.960 as any initiative from the New Deal or Great Society, 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.040 the most significant investment to fight climate change in human history, 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.240 the greatest American investment in childcare since our founding. And 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:43.400 my response, even though I appreciate Zach and understand the 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.880 perspective right that you know, we oftentimes as Democrats, tell ourselves, 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:49.760 don't let the perfect get in the way of the good. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.320 You know, something is better than nothing, right, But we 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.680 set ourselves up in a way to continually have incremental 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:01.400 change and mediocre progress with those sentiments. And I say 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.920 that not because Zach was wrong, because he's not right. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.320 This will be one of the biggest things to have happened, 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.080 but it won't have as many teeth, or if any 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.760 at all, or a spine because all of the things 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.160 that people were looking forward to in this bill that 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.360 had yet to be written was the fact that it 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:23.880 was going to address the needs that were made laid 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:29.880 bare at the height of quarantine, right when people two 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:35.320 million women were left the workforce because having to balance 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.160 teaching their kids on zoom right, who are probably who 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.160 were in elementary school or younger, as well as keep 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:45.920 up with their day to day tasks at work became 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.160 too much to bear. And so what were they going 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.520 to sacrifice their children's learning, which we already know how 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:57.160 much children lost right in learning during this time, or 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.960 what were they going to do what they were given 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:04.360 in a false choice? Right, That's the reality, and So 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:11.160 my feeling, my feeling here is this, It's what kind 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:15.239 of choices are we actually giving American workers right now? 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.520 You have, and we've talked about this on the show, 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.560 you have over eleven million people that have left the workforce. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.640 They keep talking about on mainstream media about how we 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.760 have some type of workers shortage. No, we don't. We 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.920 don't have a worker shortage in America. There are plenty 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:33.800 of people to work. But do you know what they're 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.040 recognizing that they don't want to work for peanuts, that 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.120 they don't want to work forty hours a week and 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.120 not be able to pay for prescription drugs, put food 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:47.600 on the table, pay off their student loan debt. Coming 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:53.520 up next, friends, is my conversation with Ruth Cooker, the 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.720 author of the book The Public Insult Playbook, How abusers 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:02.199 in power undermine civil rights for warm, When they go low, 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.440 we go high. Is a great turn of a phrase 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.960 and an admirable way to go through life, but did 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:13.760 nothing to defeat the radical right or Trump in twenty sixteen. 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.120 Stay tuned for that conversation and as always, let me 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:23.680 know about what you think, folks. I am so excited 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.120 to welcome to Okay f for the first time author 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:32.720 Ruth Cooker, who has written the book The Public Insult Playbook, 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:38.440 How abusers empower undermined Civil rights reform and how this 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.000 book Ruth offers insights into how attacks have come to 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:46.320 effect our contemporary public discourse right and the fact that 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.319 you know, we all have moved from the space where 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:53.720 Michelle Obama has said when they go low, we go high. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:55.920 And let me tell you something. When she made that 0:09:56.000 --> 0:10:01.400 point in that speech, I was excited, but I also said, Hmmm, 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.600 I don't know if that works all the time. I 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:09.160 don't know if choosing the high road works when people 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.000 are invested in taking us to the sewer. So can 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.880 you talk to us about why you wrote this book 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:17.679 and why it's important in the moment that we are 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:22.720 currently living in. Well. I started writing this book actually 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.600 because I was inspired by my good friend Amy Robertson, 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:32.400 who does disability rights activism, and she wrote this blog 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.640 post which is always such a great way for people 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:36.640 to just get out ideas. Right. You wrote this great 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:42.040 blog post about how the political right in lawsuits being 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:47.200 brought by disabled people were criticizing these people, insulting them 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.440 when all they were trying to do was get access 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.120 to like a restaurant, a hotel or whatever, and they 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.800 would call them things like drive by litigators, which is 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.680 such a shocking term because drive by we think of 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.480 like school shootings or something right like guns and violence. 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.000 And they were accusing these people who are trying to 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:11.319 get into places that were inaccessible as drive by litigators, 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:16.480 you know, they called them bounty hunters and all these insults, 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:24.240 and shockingly, some judges accepted this characterization of these people 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.400 who are just trying to access their basic civil rights. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.440 And so I started doing research in the disability area 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:35.040 to see how this insult was having such effect and 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.920 limiting people's abilities to utilize one of my favorite statutes 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.000 to Americans, Disabilities Act. And then after I started doing 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.280 the work in the disability context, a publisher approached me 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.160 and said, you know, I think this is a good theme. 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.400 Do you want to pursue it outside of disability context? 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.880 To go, yeah, you're right, and I as you know, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.080 I wrote chapters on many other different topics that we 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.800 can discuss, but it was the disability issue that really 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.320 got me started because I was just so appalled by 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.600 these insults are being flung at people just for trying 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.959 to access their rights that they were entitled to. Do 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.199 you think that, you know, just staying in the disability 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.000 vein for a moment, do you think that that community 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:18.559 is still very much marginalized in terms of the language 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.720 that we use it like they are. They are readily 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.480 a target by both the right and they by both sides, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.280 I say, and I say that not because I liked 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.400 to both sides things to death, because I definitely do not, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.040 But I say it because the language that we use 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.720 these days are important, right, And there used to be 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:40.160 things that we would say that would reference a disability, 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.160 but we were making the point of something not working right, 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.280 And I still hear people use that language. So do 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.520 you think that the reason why judges were signing with 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.079 the opponents is because this is a community that is 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.560 seen of as as a throwaway that we don't need 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.520 to pay attention to. That is such a good point, Danielle. 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.080 And one of the things I tried to do this 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.920 year at the New Year's resolution I've completely failed is 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:11.320 to stop using the word crazy every time something didn't 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.240 make sense to me that I disliked it, that I 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.720 thought it was wrong, Because of course I didn't mean crazy, right, 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.959 I was just using that as a shorthand. And so 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.360 in modern popular discourse, we all do it. And I'm 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.680 like you, I never do the both sides stuff that 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.240 really bothers me, but in this case, but everybody does it. 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:35.880 Everybody uses shorthands when they are disability terms, when that's 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.040 not actually what they're talking about. They're not talking about 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.400 someone's mental health or whatever. And so many of them are, unfortunately, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.000 you know, terms that have to do with mental health disabilities, 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.040 which we are talking about more and that's great, But 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.320 at the same time, we haven't stopped using these really 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.160 disparaging labels just all the time in common discourse, you know. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.719 And so I want to make the transition now to 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.640 Republican and Donald Trump, particularly in the way that Donald 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:07.400 Trump campaigned in twenty in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.880 and how his approach, if one can call it that, 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.600 how his approach has completely changed the landscape of what 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.200 is and is not acceptable in politics. There used to 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.960 be things that were quote unquote off limits, things that 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.760 you would never hear a politician say out loud because 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.720 their campaign would be dead on arrival. That is no 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.760 longer the case, apparently there's nothing that is off you know, 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:38.280 off limits. How did you see things begin to shift 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.440 and how does that play into this playbook that you've 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.680 put together. Well, Actually, what I try to do in 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.120 the book is used Donald Trump as an example as 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:52.960 little as possible, okay, because I think that we misunderstand 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.200 the Donald Trump what I would like to call moment, 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.680 but it's not a moment, right. What Donald Trump has 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.160 done is get even us a poignant example of the 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.840 effectiveness of hurling public insults when you're a member of 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.040 the political right, and that you can do so with impunity. 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.040 But the reason he could do it is because the 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.840 mindset of accepting that kind of discourse was already present. 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:16.920 He was smart enough to figure out that he could 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:21.880 harmiss it. But he was just doing things that had 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.520 happened before. And it's actually not true that politicians couldn't 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.680 hurl insult. So then one of the examples that I've 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.640 given the book, again going back to disability context, is 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.600 that when the American Disabilities app was being considered by Congress, 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:39.200 the right wing Republicans insisted the certain exceptions we put 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.600 it in the statute that we put in the statute 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:47.920 that it doesn't cover transvestites and pedia files and homosexuals, 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:53.680 you know. And so even when Congress was passing a 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.000 landmark civil right statute on behalf of people with disabilities, 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.040 Congress was slurring people with disabilities at the same time. 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.360 And and you know, and if you think about the 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.640 racial civil rights movement, I mean, there have been slurs 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.640 against black people forever, right, I mean, this is not 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:17.640 a new phenomenon. And there have been politicians who have 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:22.000 campaigned with Willie Horton ads and the like, Right, that's 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.520 their way of using the public insul playbook. So Trump 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.880 is an example, of course, and has he helped make 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.760 it worse, absolutely, But I don't think I think we 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.960 need to understand him as part of the broader phenomenon 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.400 rather than the phenomenon itself. I mean, Ruth, how did 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:43.280 we get from an error an era of political correctness, right, 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:49.000 what was term as political correctness, to this current insult culture? 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:53.520 How did how? Honestly? Because if it if Donald Trump 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.520 is a symptom, right, which is what many people say, 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:00.920 He's a symptom of a larger problem. A there was 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.440 a degradation that was beginning in our body politic before 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.600 Donald Trump, he just exacerbated that. But how did we 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:13.600 move from this space where certain phrases, certain things were 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.320 deemed as off limits to now everything being back on 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.119 the table and more. Well, I think you know, one 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.920 of the books that influenced me the most is Kendy's book. 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.080 I'm trying to think of the title tying to be 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.840 Anti Racist. No, the other book, anyway, he has to 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.840 he has many books, anyway. In one of his books 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:37.840 he says that, but we need to understand about American 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:42.560 history as we have had both racism and anti racism 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.200 at the same time. We shouldn't see this as one 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.200 movement winning. So during the so called political correctness error, 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.920 if we want to call it, that, the political right 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:58.840 was still perfectly in existence. Maybe their voices were more 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.200 muted for a while, but they were still there. And 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.960 we always have both in American history from the beginning. Right, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.160 we've always had both of those themes president in American society, 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:13.840 and they vast late us to whose voice might be 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.680 the loudest and most shaping public policy the most. But 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.840 it were wrong to think that just because the political 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.520 left for a time maybe was winning, the so called 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.560 political correctness debates that we had really won anything. Isn't 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.399 winning and losing, They're both currents are there at the 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:31.119 same time. And that's why I argue in the book 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:37.800 that when the political left has the dominant discourse, when 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.520 we're winning the political fights, when we can get legislation 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.640 through Congress, right, when we're at that particular moment, which 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:48.440 we were, for example, during the Obama administration, we need 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.040 to anticipate that the political right will be coming against 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.879 us with this public installed playbook and put into place 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:59.560 really strong structural reforms that will help deflect that strategy. 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.280 We need to know that sturnity is always there and 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:04.880 always will be there. And when we have those political 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.800 moments when we have some power, let's make sure we 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.639 use it in a way that's structural and so that 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.280 the public insul playbook will be less effective against us. 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:19.120 You know, I feel like our political norms, though, have 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.399 been so eroded that I don't even you know, for me, 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.760 somebody who is a student of political science has been 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:30.000 in politics and in policy work for my entire career, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:35.280 I have never seen political norms eroded in such haste 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.480 as they have been now. And so I'm wondering what 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.720 are some of the ways you think that, in this 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:46.840 heightened moment of tribalism, of nastiness, of cruelty, that this 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:53.880 administration or other members of Congress would even begin to 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:58.480 reinforce those eroded norms. What do those steps begin to 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.480 look like. I don't think we're going to get back 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.240 the norm's ability, assuming we ever had them. I mean, 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.640 that's you know, that's and in some ways, that's sort 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.080 of a pretense that people were faking it, and we 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.040 accepted they're faking it, But now we know how they 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:12.840 really felt. So maybe we should thank them for being 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.800 more honest now. But yes, yes, thank you for taking 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:21.000 your lids off that. But but you know, you keep 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.800 keep giving national examples, and so do I. But as 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.000 you know, the Black Lives Matter movement has really made 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.919 some important inroads at the local government level, right, And 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.000 so it may be that we're not going to get 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.760 the package that we want Biden to get through Congress 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.119 right now? Right three point five trillion, I've probably like 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.119 six trillion, right, I bet you we could agree with 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:43.280 me on that one. Right, But can we get some 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.640 things done at the local government level where we can 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.000 talk about what it means for them to be violence 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.560 in the black community, you know, by the police. You know, 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.680 can we talk about what can happen there? And as 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.880 you know, what the Black Lives Matter movement has done 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.159 so masterfully is to say, okay, that's great. You know, 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.360 let's criminalize Derek Schouben's behavior. Let's go after him, but 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.080 let's also ban chow colds, let's defund the police. Let's 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.920 make structural reform at the local government level where maybe 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.200 we can have real conversations. Right, maybe maybe tribalism works 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:19.200 there because there's just more support for the progressive views 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:21.320 and we can actually get in rows and instead of 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.280 sitting around waiting for Congress to do something. I mean, 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.000 if we're going to sit around wait for Congress criminal 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:27.480 justice reform, you and I are going to be long 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.439 dead by then, right, right, so you're younger than me, 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.119 but but yet you we do see changes at the 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.200 local government level. Right. It depends upon the community that 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.280 you live in. And that's not enough. Obviously that's not enough, 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:41.719 but it is something and we should at minimize it. 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:44.400 And so, yeah, I don't think we should just sit 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:47.439 around and wait for civility to return, because you know, 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:48.919 one of the things I show in the book is 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.399 that from the founding of our republic, we had on 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.679 civil discourse in Congress. I mean there's this you know, 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.160 dueling and all that stuff. Remember that, Yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.520 we were talking about mud slinging. Then right when you're 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.320 when we were talking about local, state um and federal elections. 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:09.399 You know, one of the things that you that is 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.959 conjured in my mind as we're talking about you know, 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.280 local levels, that I'm thinking right now, what has been 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.280 happening at our school boards? Right? What has been happening 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:20.800 across the country at our school board meetings? Like we 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:23.639 you know, toxicity, to your point, isn't just at the 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:26.840 federal level. It is actually marinated. It's way all the 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.119 way down. And so you're seeing these school board meetings 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.800 take place which were never points of major contention, right, Like, 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:36.199 I'm not hallucinating that fact that school boards used to 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:38.280 talk with the most contentious thing they were talking about 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.639 is you know, more money or less money or you know, 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.680 and and that was it. Now we're talking about, well, 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.920 schools are years away from vaccinations and don't wear a mask, 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.760 and these policies and harassing, these people, and so what 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:54.840 does it look like to you if part of the 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:59.040 pushback right now is that the people that are representing 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.919 us at all different levels are not truly actually representing 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.080 the people. And one of the one of the positive 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:09.440 sides of this toxic moment that we're in is engaging 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.200 more people to actually take up the mantle and want 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:15.320 to run for office, but they feel like they can't 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:18.520 do so because they're literally going to be putting maybe 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.080 a literal or figurative target on their backs. What is 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:24.600 your advice for those people that are saying, you know, 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:26.920 I want to take the system back. I do want 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.960 a return to civility or as close to that as 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:34.520 we can get. Well, I mean, obviously that is great. 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.440 I don't think, unfortunately, have any answers they are. I mean, 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.879 one thing my research I think has shown is that 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:43.639 it doesn't help for the political left to engage in 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:47.679 mud slinging. That's what I call it, you know, the 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:52.560 abusers in power, the political right, that's who I'm criticizing. 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:55.080 As you may have noticed from time to time, when 0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:57.880 the political left tries to engage in some of that playbook, 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.360 it actually doesn't work. It's I see the playbook as 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:07.480 part of the protection of neoliberal mindsets capitalism, you know. 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:11.240 And so if we think of things like bounty hunters, 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:16.280 I mentioned that the disability community was accused of being 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:18.880