1 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Good morning, Keeps, and welcome to wok Up Daily with 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: your girl. Danielle Moody recording from La because I'm out 3 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: here for a wonderful board meeting with the Miss Foundation, 4 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: whose board I sit on. If you don't know anything 5 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: about the Miss Foundation for Women, you should look them up. 6 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: They are supporting an organization that supports women and girls 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: of color in particular at this moment in time, and 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: do wonderful grants to organizations that are working on behalf 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: of women and girls of color in a range of 10 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: different ways. Folks, let me start out by saying that, 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, the other day, I was on the plane 12 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: traveling out here to California from New York, and I 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: found myself completely and utterly off the grid, right. I 14 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: decided not to pay for the Wi Fi on the plane, 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: and I'm looking around and everybody's complying with the MASK mandates, 16 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: and you know, all is moving well. Land in California. 17 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: Decide to turn on Twitter after not being online for 18 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: about five hours, and come to find out that the 19 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: build back better. The three point five trillion dollar Infrastructure Bill, 20 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: which was supposed to incorporate both buildings and roads and 21 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: bridges and broadband and traditional ideas of what we believe 22 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: as infrastructure, as well as what it takes to have 23 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: human infrastructure, meaning you know that Americans are essentially cogs 24 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: in the capitalistic machine, and what does it take to 25 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: have workers right and to have people have the ability 26 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: to enter into the workforce because they have things like 27 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: paid family leave, paid medical leave, They have things like 28 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: support in cost of childcare so that women don't have 29 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: to leave the workforce in high numbers because guess what 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: their employers would be supporting childcare. Because we know that 31 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: even in heteronormative circumstances, right, that it is women right. 32 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: Even if we want to believe that the world has changed, 33 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: it has not, and the pandemic showed us this that 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: it is. Oftentimes, when the sole responsibility of childcare ends 35 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: up being on the family, it is women who end 36 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: up having to leave the workforce to care for those children. 37 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: And then we create a society in an environment that 38 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: does not welcome them back in. And as a matter 39 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: of fact, looks at any gaps that you may have 40 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: on your resume, and if you were to dare to 41 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: say that, oh, I had left my last job but 42 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: then decided to have two beautiful children and then want 43 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: to come back five years later. They look at that 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: as if you are lazy, you are a problem, right, 45 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 1: And what does that mean for your productivity down the road? 46 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: Are you going to have to leave for parent teacher conferences? 47 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: What if the kid gets sick, I might as well 48 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: get somebody younger, cheaper, without kids, not married, who I 49 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: can work to death. Right. So these are the types 50 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: of issues that were a part of what the Biden 51 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: administration was referring to as their human Infrastructure Bill. And 52 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: come to find out that when I got off of 53 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: my flight from New York to LA that Senator Mansion 54 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: decided that, among other things, he was going to take 55 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: out the medical leave, take out the paid family leave, 56 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: take out the childcare costs, because you know what, he 57 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: doesn't like the size of the infrastructure bill. It's just 58 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: too big. And then also, guess what, even though the 59 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: Democrats have created an opportunity for us to have a 60 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: billionaire tax, you know, for these people who do not 61 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: get taxed through income but get taxed through other means, 62 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: to be able to pay their fair share and so 63 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: that the burden doesn't fall on the rest of us 64 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: middle class and lower income people and the poor that oh, 65 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: he doesn't like that either, even though according to many 66 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: reports and on Twitter, there are no fucking billionaires in 67 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: West Virginia, but there are, of course billionaires the heads 68 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: of corporations that are giving Joe Mansion his money and 69 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: his leash apparently. So the reality is that we are 70 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: getting nothing. We are getting nothing. And a couple of 71 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: people had tweeted and said this at this point, what 72 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: is happening is just cruel and disgusting, and I said, yeah, 73 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I know that I say these things on 74 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: a relative on a regular basis on woke AF, I 75 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: talk about how disgusting, how despicable. And I realized that 76 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that's really just me 77 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: blowing off steam because it's not as if these people 78 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: Joe Mansion, Kursten Cinema, who, by the way, was on 79 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: the floor of the Senate and a denim vest, like 80 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: first of all, A, it's not the nineties and b 81 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: professionalism much and see, no, I'm not talking about respectability 82 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: politics and as it pertains to dress. But what I'm 83 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: saying is is that if she were not a white 84 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: woman rocking a denim vest on the floor of the Senate. 85 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: Then the amount of commentary that would have proceeded, how unprofessional, 86 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: how uncouth, how not ready for prime time this person is. 87 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: And you know, I got to tell you that it 88 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: reeked of white privilege. It reeked, reeked of it, and 89 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: it was disgusting. It was a disgusting display. But I digress. 90 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: The fact is that many people are saying, well, you know, 91 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: because they're already preparing themselves for the loss that we're 92 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: getting ready to have, right because we're not getting the 93 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: three point five trillion dollar deal. We're not getting the robust, 94 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: transformative new deal that everybody kept talking about. No, we're not. 95 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: And the reality is is that Joe Mansion is a 96 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: piece of shit. And here's what one of our friends, 97 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: a friend of the show and a member of WIKA 98 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: Nation is Zach Bacantis had said. He said, even a compromise, 99 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: build back better deal would be as historic and impactful 100 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: as any initiative from the New Deal or Great Society, 101 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: the most significant investment to fight climate change in human history, 102 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: the greatest American investment in childcare since our founding. And 103 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: my response, even though I appreciate Zach and understand the 104 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: perspective right that you know, we oftentimes as Democrats, tell ourselves, 105 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: don't let the perfect get in the way of the good. 106 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: You know, something is better than nothing, right, But we 107 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: set ourselves up in a way to continually have incremental 108 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: change and mediocre progress with those sentiments. And I say 109 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: that not because Zach was wrong, because he's not right. 110 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: This will be one of the biggest things to have happened, 111 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: but it won't have as many teeth, or if any 112 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: at all, or a spine because all of the things 113 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: that people were looking forward to in this bill that 114 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: had yet to be written was the fact that it 115 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: was going to address the needs that were made laid 116 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: bare at the height of quarantine, right when people two 117 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: million women were left the workforce because having to balance 118 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: teaching their kids on zoom right, who are probably who 119 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: were in elementary school or younger, as well as keep 120 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: up with their day to day tasks at work became 121 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: too much to bear. And so what were they going 122 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: to sacrifice their children's learning, which we already know how 123 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: much children lost right in learning during this time, or 124 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: what were they going to do what they were given 125 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: in a false choice? Right, That's the reality, and So 126 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: my feeling, my feeling here is this, It's what kind 127 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 1: of choices are we actually giving American workers right now? 128 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: You have, and we've talked about this on the show, 129 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: you have over eleven million people that have left the workforce. 130 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: They keep talking about on mainstream media about how we 131 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: have some type of workers shortage. No, we don't. We 132 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: don't have a worker shortage in America. There are plenty 133 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: of people to work. But do you know what they're 134 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: recognizing that they don't want to work for peanuts, that 135 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: they don't want to work forty hours a week and 136 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: not be able to pay for prescription drugs, put food 137 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: on the table, pay off their student loan debt. Coming 138 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: up next, friends, is my conversation with Ruth Cooker, the 139 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: author of the book The Public Insult Playbook, How abusers 140 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: in power undermine civil rights for warm, When they go low, 141 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: we go high. Is a great turn of a phrase 142 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: and an admirable way to go through life, but did 143 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: nothing to defeat the radical right or Trump in twenty sixteen. 144 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: Stay tuned for that conversation and as always, let me 145 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: know about what you think, folks. I am so excited 146 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: to welcome to Okay f for the first time author 147 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: Ruth Cooker, who has written the book The Public Insult Playbook, 148 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: How abusers empower undermined Civil rights reform and how this 149 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: book Ruth offers insights into how attacks have come to 150 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: effect our contemporary public discourse right and the fact that 151 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: you know, we all have moved from the space where 152 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: Michelle Obama has said when they go low, we go high. 153 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: And let me tell you something. When she made that 154 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: point in that speech, I was excited, but I also said, Hmmm, 155 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if that works all the time. I 156 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: don't know if choosing the high road works when people 157 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: are invested in taking us to the sewer. So can 158 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: you talk to us about why you wrote this book 159 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: and why it's important in the moment that we are 160 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: currently living in. Well. I started writing this book actually 161 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: because I was inspired by my good friend Amy Robertson, 162 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: who does disability rights activism, and she wrote this blog 163 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: post which is always such a great way for people 164 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: to just get out ideas. Right. You wrote this great 165 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: blog post about how the political right in lawsuits being 166 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: brought by disabled people were criticizing these people, insulting them 167 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: when all they were trying to do was get access 168 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: to like a restaurant, a hotel or whatever, and they 169 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: would call them things like drive by litigators, which is 170 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: such a shocking term because drive by we think of 171 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: like school shootings or something right like guns and violence. 172 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: And they were accusing these people who are trying to 173 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: get into places that were inaccessible as drive by litigators, 174 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, they called them bounty hunters and all these insults, 175 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: and shockingly, some judges accepted this characterization of these people 176 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: who are just trying to access their basic civil rights. 177 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: And so I started doing research in the disability area 178 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: to see how this insult was having such effect and 179 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: limiting people's abilities to utilize one of my favorite statutes 180 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: to Americans, Disabilities Act. And then after I started doing 181 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: the work in the disability context, a publisher approached me 182 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: and said, you know, I think this is a good theme. 183 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: Do you want to pursue it outside of disability context? 184 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: To go, yeah, you're right, and I as you know, 185 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: I wrote chapters on many other different topics that we 186 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: can discuss, but it was the disability issue that really 187 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: got me started because I was just so appalled by 188 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: these insults are being flung at people just for trying 189 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: to access their rights that they were entitled to. Do 190 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: you think that, you know, just staying in the disability 191 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: vein for a moment, do you think that that community 192 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: is still very much marginalized in terms of the language 193 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: that we use it like they are. They are readily 194 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: a target by both the right and they by both sides, 195 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: I say, and I say that not because I liked 196 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: to both sides things to death, because I definitely do not, 197 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: But I say it because the language that we use 198 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: these days are important, right, And there used to be 199 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: things that we would say that would reference a disability, 200 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: but we were making the point of something not working right, 201 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: And I still hear people use that language. So do 202 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: you think that the reason why judges were signing with 203 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: the opponents is because this is a community that is 204 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: seen of as as a throwaway that we don't need 205 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: to pay attention to. That is such a good point, Danielle. 206 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: And one of the things I tried to do this 207 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: year at the New Year's resolution I've completely failed is 208 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: to stop using the word crazy every time something didn't 209 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: make sense to me that I disliked it, that I 210 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: thought it was wrong, Because of course I didn't mean crazy, right, 211 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: I was just using that as a shorthand. And so 212 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: in modern popular discourse, we all do it. And I'm 213 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: like you, I never do the both sides stuff that 214 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: really bothers me, but in this case, but everybody does it. 215 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: Everybody uses shorthands when they are disability terms, when that's 216 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: not actually what they're talking about. They're not talking about 217 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: someone's mental health or whatever. And so many of them are, unfortunately, 218 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, terms that have to do with mental health disabilities, 219 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: which we are talking about more and that's great, But 220 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: at the same time, we haven't stopped using these really 221 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: disparaging labels just all the time in common discourse, you know. 222 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: And so I want to make the transition now to 223 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: Republican and Donald Trump, particularly in the way that Donald 224 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: Trump campaigned in twenty in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, 225 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: and how his approach, if one can call it that, 226 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: how his approach has completely changed the landscape of what 227 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: is and is not acceptable in politics. There used to 228 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: be things that were quote unquote off limits, things that 229 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: you would never hear a politician say out loud because 230 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: their campaign would be dead on arrival. That is no 231 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: longer the case, apparently there's nothing that is off you know, 232 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: off limits. How did you see things begin to shift 233 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: and how does that play into this playbook that you've 234 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: put together. Well, Actually, what I try to do in 235 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: the book is used Donald Trump as an example as 236 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: little as possible, okay, because I think that we misunderstand 237 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: the Donald Trump what I would like to call moment, 238 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: but it's not a moment, right. What Donald Trump has 239 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: done is get even us a poignant example of the 240 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: effectiveness of hurling public insults when you're a member of 241 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: the political right, and that you can do so with impunity. 242 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: But the reason he could do it is because the 243 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: mindset of accepting that kind of discourse was already present. 244 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: He was smart enough to figure out that he could 245 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: harmiss it. But he was just doing things that had 246 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: happened before. And it's actually not true that politicians couldn't 247 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: hurl insult. So then one of the examples that I've 248 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: given the book, again going back to disability context, is 249 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: that when the American Disabilities app was being considered by Congress, 250 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: the right wing Republicans insisted the certain exceptions we put 251 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: it in the statute that we put in the statute 252 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: that it doesn't cover transvestites and pedia files and homosexuals, 253 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: you know. And so even when Congress was passing a 254 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: landmark civil right statute on behalf of people with disabilities, 255 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: Congress was slurring people with disabilities at the same time. 256 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: And and you know, and if you think about the 257 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: racial civil rights movement, I mean, there have been slurs 258 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: against black people forever, right, I mean, this is not 259 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: a new phenomenon. And there have been politicians who have 260 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: campaigned with Willie Horton ads and the like, Right, that's 261 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: their way of using the public insul playbook. So Trump 262 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: is an example, of course, and has he helped make 263 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: it worse, absolutely, But I don't think I think we 264 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: need to understand him as part of the broader phenomenon 265 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: rather than the phenomenon itself. I mean, Ruth, how did 266 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: we get from an error an era of political correctness, right, 267 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: what was term as political correctness, to this current insult culture? 268 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: How did how? Honestly? Because if it if Donald Trump 269 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: is a symptom, right, which is what many people say, 270 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: He's a symptom of a larger problem. A there was 271 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: a degradation that was beginning in our body politic before 272 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, he just exacerbated that. But how did we 273 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: move from this space where certain phrases, certain things were 274 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: deemed as off limits to now everything being back on 275 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: the table and more. Well, I think you know, one 276 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: of the books that influenced me the most is Kendy's book. 277 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of the title tying to be 278 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: Anti Racist. No, the other book, anyway, he has to 279 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: he has many books, anyway. In one of his books 280 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: he says that, but we need to understand about American 281 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: history as we have had both racism and anti racism 282 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: at the same time. We shouldn't see this as one 283 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: movement winning. So during the so called political correctness error, 284 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: if we want to call it, that, the political right 285 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: was still perfectly in existence. Maybe their voices were more 286 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: muted for a while, but they were still there. And 287 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: we always have both in American history from the beginning. Right, 288 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: we've always had both of those themes president in American society, 289 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: and they vast late us to whose voice might be 290 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: the loudest and most shaping public policy the most. But 291 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: it were wrong to think that just because the political 292 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: left for a time maybe was winning, the so called 293 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: political correctness debates that we had really won anything. Isn't 294 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: winning and losing, They're both currents are there at the 295 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: same time. And that's why I argue in the book 296 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: that when the political left has the dominant discourse, when 297 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: we're winning the political fights, when we can get legislation 298 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: through Congress, right, when we're at that particular moment, which 299 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: we were, for example, during the Obama administration, we need 300 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: to anticipate that the political right will be coming against 301 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: us with this public installed playbook and put into place 302 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: really strong structural reforms that will help deflect that strategy. 303 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: We need to know that sturnity is always there and 304 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: always will be there. And when we have those political 305 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: moments when we have some power, let's make sure we 306 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: use it in a way that's structural and so that 307 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: the public insul playbook will be less effective against us. 308 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: You know, I feel like our political norms, though, have 309 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: been so eroded that I don't even you know, for me, 310 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: somebody who is a student of political science has been 311 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: in politics and in policy work for my entire career, 312 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: I have never seen political norms eroded in such haste 313 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: as they have been now. And so I'm wondering what 314 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: are some of the ways you think that, in this 315 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: heightened moment of tribalism, of nastiness, of cruelty, that this 316 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: administration or other members of Congress would even begin to 317 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: reinforce those eroded norms. What do those steps begin to 318 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: look like. I don't think we're going to get back 319 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: the norm's ability, assuming we ever had them. I mean, 320 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's and in some ways, that's sort 321 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: of a pretense that people were faking it, and we 322 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: accepted they're faking it, But now we know how they 323 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: really felt. So maybe we should thank them for being 324 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: more honest now. But yes, yes, thank you for taking 325 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: your lids off that. But but you know, you keep 326 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: keep giving national examples, and so do I. But as 327 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: you know, the Black Lives Matter movement has really made 328 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: some important inroads at the local government level, right, And 329 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: so it may be that we're not going to get 330 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: the package that we want Biden to get through Congress 331 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: right now? Right three point five trillion, I've probably like 332 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: six trillion, right, I bet you we could agree with 333 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: me on that one. Right, But can we get some 334 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: things done at the local government level where we can 335 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: talk about what it means for them to be violence 336 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: in the black community, you know, by the police. You know, 337 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: can we talk about what can happen there? And as 338 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, what the Black Lives Matter movement has done 339 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: so masterfully is to say, okay, that's great. You know, 340 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 1: let's criminalize Derek Schouben's behavior. Let's go after him, but 341 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: let's also ban chow colds, let's defund the police. Let's 342 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: make structural reform at the local government level where maybe 343 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: we can have real conversations. Right, maybe maybe tribalism works 344 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: there because there's just more support for the progressive views 345 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: and we can actually get in rows and instead of 346 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: sitting around waiting for Congress to do something. I mean, 347 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: if we're going to sit around wait for Congress criminal 348 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: justice reform, you and I are going to be long 349 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: dead by then, right, right, so you're younger than me, 350 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: but but yet you we do see changes at the 351 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: local government level. Right. It depends upon the community that 352 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: you live in. And that's not enough. Obviously that's not enough, 353 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,719 Speaker 1: but it is something and we should at minimize it. 354 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I don't think we should just sit 355 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 1: around and wait for civility to return, because you know, 356 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: one of the things I show in the book is 357 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: that from the founding of our republic, we had on 358 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: civil discourse in Congress. I mean there's this you know, 359 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: dueling and all that stuff. Remember that, Yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, 360 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: we were talking about mud slinging. Then right when you're 361 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: when we were talking about local, state um and federal elections. 362 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that you that is 363 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 1: conjured in my mind as we're talking about you know, 364 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: local levels, that I'm thinking right now, what has been 365 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: happening at our school boards? Right? What has been happening 366 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: across the country at our school board meetings? Like we 367 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: you know, toxicity, to your point, isn't just at the 368 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: federal level. It is actually marinated. It's way all the 369 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: way down. And so you're seeing these school board meetings 370 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: take place which were never points of major contention, right, Like, 371 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: I'm not hallucinating that fact that school boards used to 372 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: talk with the most contentious thing they were talking about 373 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: is you know, more money or less money or you know, 374 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: and and that was it. Now we're talking about, well, 375 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: schools are years away from vaccinations and don't wear a mask, 376 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: and these policies and harassing, these people, and so what 377 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: does it look like to you if part of the 378 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: pushback right now is that the people that are representing 379 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: us at all different levels are not truly actually representing 380 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: the people. And one of the one of the positive 381 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: sides of this toxic moment that we're in is engaging 382 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: more people to actually take up the mantle and want 383 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: to run for office, but they feel like they can't 384 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: do so because they're literally going to be putting maybe 385 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: a literal or figurative target on their backs. What is 386 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: your advice for those people that are saying, you know, 387 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: I want to take the system back. I do want 388 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: a return to civility or as close to that as 389 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: we can get. Well, I mean, obviously that is great. 390 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: I don't think, unfortunately, have any answers they are. I mean, 391 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: one thing my research I think has shown is that 392 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: it doesn't help for the political left to engage in 393 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: mud slinging. That's what I call it, you know, the 394 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: abusers in power, the political right, that's who I'm criticizing. 395 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: As you may have noticed from time to time, when 396 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: the political left tries to engage in some of that playbook, 397 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: it actually doesn't work. It's I see the playbook as 398 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: part of the protection of neoliberal mindsets capitalism, you know. 399 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: And so if we think of things like bounty hunters, 400 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: I mentioned that the disability community was accused of being 401 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: bounty hunters right, and they tried to enforce the accessibility 402 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: provisions of the ADA. Now, as your listeners know, right now, 403 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: the state of Texas has bolden bounty hunters right to 404 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: go after women who are having who want to have abortions. 405 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: And guess what bounty hunters now is okay, when the 406 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: political right wants to use that term, they're using they're 407 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: leveraging that term to get something where it's the same 408 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: people who criticize disability activists for also trying to get something, 409 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: to try to get accessible structures. So I think we 410 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: have no choice but to want stability by being part 411 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: of the political left, because we don't have the choice 412 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: of slinging insults. It's not going to work. There's no evidence. 413 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: I couldn't find any evidence of the political left ever 414 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: achieving anything through insults, but the political right is masterful 415 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: at it and really has that tool. And so one 416 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: of the things that I have found it's depressing, but 417 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: I think is powerful, is that you know, as black 418 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: men have been murdered, and of course others, but pretty 419 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: sip his black men had been murdered, and the immediate 420 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: thing is for the newspapers and else to talk about 421 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: their criminal record and all this nest Right and the 422 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter movement has been so good and immediately 423 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: coming back and putting up pictures of these people in 424 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,719 Speaker 1: their high school graduation with gal yeah, or you know, 425 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: with their children riding around them. Why because they're trying 426 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: to counter that political right image. They anticipate it, and now, 427 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's not become harder, hasn't it. You know? 428 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: We you know when we when we think of Trayvon 429 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: Martin is a piece of candy, you know, and the 430 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: way the mudslinging went against him as compared to how 431 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: the media has had to handle George Floyd. It's a 432 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: lot of years between those two events. I think that's 433 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: about seven years between those two events, and a lot 434 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: of things have happened in the middle. But so I 435 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: think that we have learned that we need to make 436 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: sure is that we present positive images and we don't 437 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: accept this mud slinking. We don't accept these public insults, 438 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: and we anticipate it, so we're ready with these positive 439 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: images in the media, and so I think that's you know, 440 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 1: that's that's real. That's been a very effective tactic. I 441 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: was gonna, you know, I hear you on the effectiveness 442 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: of it, because I think that in that example, it 443 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: is incredibly important to change the narrative as well as 444 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: the visuals right when we are talking about victims. I 445 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, I think about the ways in which we 446 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: have changed how the media engages with victims of sexual assault, 447 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: right where it is no longer acceptable to go through 448 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: a person's background, what they were wearing, all of these 449 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: different things and just have to tackle the issue at hand. 450 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: I think I would I would hope, right, I don't 451 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: think that it's going to be similar, but I would 452 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: hope that that would be the case for victims, uh, 453 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,719 Speaker 1: you know, victims of police violence. Right that we're not 454 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: talking about what it was that the police did not 455 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: have access to and understanding that person before they gunned 456 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 1: them down or you know, cut off their oxygen for 457 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: eight minutes and forty six seconds, but instead taking things 458 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: in this situation that we know m is it a 459 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: hindrance though for the fact, for the left, for those 460 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: that insults don't work on our behalf because it requires 461 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: us to then have to be once again a lot 462 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: more nimble and a lot more strategic than the right 463 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: ever has to be. Yeah, you know, and you know, 464 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: before you said, what do I say? These people who 465 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: are lucting to run for school board, you know they're 466 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: and I mean, to be involved in political activism is exhausting, 467 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: and we all need to have our mental health resources, 468 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, friends, family, people who support us. It is exhausting. 469 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: And when you know, I teach young people, Um, I 470 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 1: teach people in their twenties, and and I understand that 471 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: it is exhausting. I have children myself who are engaged 472 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: in this kind of work. But you know it's worth 473 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: being exhaustive for I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, it's 474 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: sort of like this isn't maybe a bad analogy because 475 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: I'm not good at sports. But you know, when when 476 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: people used to say, when we have a medioc or 477 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: black center fielder, we'll know this racial equality and professional baseball, right, 478 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: it's not when we have the superstars. Yeah they always 479 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: get to play, well, not always, but you know, more 480 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: recently were able to play. But you know, black people 481 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: are entitled to be as average as white people at 482 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: the same pursuits, and you know, that's just the way 483 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: it works. But before that, you have to be twice 484 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: as qualified right to have those opportunities. And that's that's 485 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: that's what it means to fight, and that means to 486 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,479 Speaker 1: stay in the fight. And I don't I don't think 487 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: we're helping ourselves by misleading ourselves about that. It's hard 488 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: to achieve progress. It's easier just to maintain the status 489 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: quo word to even move backwards. So what do you say, then, Ruth, 490 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: to the people that say we must fight fire with 491 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: fire or that in this political climate you have democrats 492 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: that are bringing, you know, a pen to a knife fight. Like, 493 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: what what is your response and your books response to 494 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: to those old adages. Yeah, I mean it's probably true. 495 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we could certainly find some evidence 496 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: of the black panthers maybe helping to move the civil 497 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: rights movement. And we shouldn't think of the civil rights 498 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: movement as a monolithic development that only use civil disobedience. 499 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: That there were some more aggressive voices, you know, within 500 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: the black civil rights community arguing for other kinds of tactics. 501 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: Um and so, um, you know, I do believe that 502 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: we each have to ask ourselves what's the role we 503 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: personally can play and make sure we're playing a role 504 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: and doing something rather than you know, sitting and not 505 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: doing something. Um but um, it's the road to civil 506 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: rights progress is just it's really long, you know, and 507 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: it's not getting any shorter. It's it's a it is 508 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: a hard journey, and if you think about it, all 509 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: the political right has to do is say no. They 510 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: say no, said no to anti lynching laws. You know, 511 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: they say they said no to civil rights laws. We 512 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: have to overcome a filibuster right to get the Civil 513 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: Rights Act. We couldn't overcome filibusters to get anti lynching 514 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: laws many years ago. You know, it's easy to be 515 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: in the political right because all you have to do 516 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: is say no. You don't have to write legislation, you 517 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: don't know, you just don't have to offer a platform. 518 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: You don't have to you know, you don't. You don't 519 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: have to offer anything. Right, where's the Affordable Care Act 520 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: that they were going to rewrite. We've never even seen 521 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: a draft of a bill. You know. They've never had 522 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: an alternative because they don't need one. They just say no, no, no, 523 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: And so it's harder to be part of the political 524 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: left because it does take a pen right. It takes 525 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: a pen to right legislation to get past, and it 526 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: takes people in the streets to help create the momentum 527 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: the legislation to get past. It takes a lot of 528 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: people doing a lot of things. But you might say, 529 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: to me, isn't it fascinating The political right doesn't even 530 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: need a pen. All I mean is the red X mark. 531 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: I mean, the last question you know for you on 532 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: this is that if if all the right has to 533 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: do is say no, and the left cannot co opt 534 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: the tactics of the right because it doesn't work with 535 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: our base, then what does the future of our body 536 00:31:54,760 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: politic look like when insults and cruelty have become the 537 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: norm and replace civility, and we are so far from 538 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: that place right, So I guess I would argue that 539 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: despite the incivility, it is possible for people in the 540 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: political left to be the political majority. You know, we 541 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: saw it in Obama's first term, the first two years 542 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: of his term, when we had a supermajority in the 543 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: United States, said it. I know, we don't have as 544 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: many moments in US history, as you and I might 545 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: like that are like that. But when we do have 546 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: those moments, I think we need to be more creative 547 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: in thinking about what we want to seek. And so 548 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: you know, as you know, we didn't get immigration reformed 549 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: during Obama's first two years, and we could have, and 550 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: that is a real tragedy that we didn't do that. 551 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: We wasted a lot of time trying to get bipartisan 552 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: support for the Affordable Care Act that it never happened. 553 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: It was going to have to be a party line 554 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: vote all along. And so hopefully we learn from our 555 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: experience of being the majority so that when we find 556 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: ourselves a majority again, we're more efficient, right, We're more successful, 557 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: We're more thinking about what's going to happen. And I 558 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: have to be confident, I have to be optimistic that 559 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: young people understand what we need to do to save 560 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: our planets, to advance civil rights. I mean that we're 561 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: really in a moment of crisis and that the Republicans 562 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: just saying no, no, no is turned an off a 563 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: lot of young people. And hopefully we will soon find 564 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: ourselves in a supermajority again. We need that right to 565 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: achieve the kind of structure reforms. It's important, but in 566 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: the short term we can at least try to achieve 567 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: change at the local government level, where we won't need 568 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: to have the supermajorities that we need in the United 569 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: States Congress. You know, I think that one of the 570 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: things that we have seen, right that the last four 571 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: years under Trump has shown us is that and what 572 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: the last ten months under this new administration has also 573 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: shown us is that, you know, what happens at the 574 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: federal level is not the silver bullet. It is what 575 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: it is how power is dispersed across the country and 576 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: at all levels of our government, and that if we 577 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: don't have our eyes in all of those places, then 578 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: you can see how we can be caught out in 579 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: the cold, as I think that we are now, because 580 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: my fear is that we're not going to get the 581 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: opportunity for a supermajority again. That if Democrats lose in 582 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two and then again in twenty twenty four, 583 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: we are done. That's a conversation I continue to have 584 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: on Woke a f and I know that people consider 585 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: it to be hyperbolic, but the writing is on the 586 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: wall in so many different ways. Thank you so much 587 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: Ruth for making the time to join us. Folks. The 588 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: book is the public insult Playbook, How abusers in power 589 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: undermine civil rights reform. I hope that you will come 590 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: back and join us again. I would love to. This 591 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: has been a real treat. I love your podcast. Thank 592 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: you so much, thank you, thank you. That is it 593 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: for me today. Dear friends on Woke f as always, 594 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: power to the people and to all the people. Power, 595 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.