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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Josh Clark, and there's Charles W Chuck Bryant, and of

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Speaker 1: course the Greatest the Goat Jerry is with us as well.

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Speaker 1: It's just a quietly lurking in the background, the Greatest Goat, HM,

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Speaker 1: the Greatest. How you doing, I'm doing good, Chuck, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm a little This was one of your picks, but

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Speaker 1: I think I might be a little more enthusiastic about

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Speaker 1: this one than you. Why do you say that? Because

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Speaker 1: I said this is boring, they fully recorded a little

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Speaker 1: bit that may have something to do with it, and

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Speaker 1: then me saying, oh, no, I think it's pretty interesting.

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Speaker 1: Oh I don't think it's really that boring. And it

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Speaker 1: was my pick, um, Yeah, what made you choose that? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about blue laws, and just very quickly,

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Speaker 1: blue laws are our laws from ancient times that have

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Speaker 1: carried over still in some places to modern day America

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Speaker 1: and other countries as well. I guess that restrict certain

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Speaker 1: activities on certain days. But generally in the United States,

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Speaker 1: we think of blue laws are things that you can't

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Speaker 1: do on Sundays a lot of time. Their vices like

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Speaker 1: you can't drink or buy alcohol until sometimes at all,

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Speaker 1: or until certain times, or maybe restrict working or gambling

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Speaker 1: or you know, just various things. But uh, we had

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Speaker 1: our own blue law, one blue law at least on

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Speaker 1: the books in Georgia until just a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: you could not buy alcohol on Sunday at all. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think Georgia was the last state to repeal a

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Speaker 1: full Sunday prohibition on buying alcohol full prohibition. But then

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Speaker 1: I mean it passed by a ridiculous measure, something like

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Speaker 1: but you still can't buy booze before I think noon

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Speaker 1: on Sunday. And that's weird. And it seems like if

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Speaker 1: you step back, if you were an alien, let's say, right,

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Speaker 1: and you came down and you're like, that's a great way.

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Speaker 1: So let's say you're work from work, right, Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: what you just reminded me of. And you show up

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Speaker 1: with your super cool block color puffy vest and you say,

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Speaker 1: I want to familiarize myself with laws. This would makes sense.

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Speaker 1: This makes sense. What you can't buy alcohol before noon

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Speaker 1: on Sunday, So that doesn't make any sense. That was

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Speaker 1: my impression of mark Um. If he dug a little deeper,

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Speaker 1: it would become obvious that it makes a ton of

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Speaker 1: sense if you're coming at it from the vantage point

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Speaker 1: of a Christian in the Western hemisphere who observes Sunday

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Speaker 1: as the day of um worship and rest. Right outside

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Speaker 1: of that context, it doesn't make sense. And there in

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Speaker 1: lies the rub. There's the big push and pull between

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Speaker 1: people who are like America is founded essentially on the

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Speaker 1: idea and promise the separation of church and state. We're

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Speaker 1: supposed to keep those two separate, So we shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: the state making laws that enthusiastically support one of the

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Speaker 1: tenets of this one particular church Christianity, which is you

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Speaker 1: should not be doing a whole lot of stuff on

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Speaker 1: Sunday and you should probably be going to church. And

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Speaker 1: other people who say no, no, that's it's actually a

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Speaker 1: really really good thing to do. This even if you

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Speaker 1: don't believe in religion, even if you don't go to church,

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Speaker 1: blue laws actually still help us out right. There have

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Speaker 1: been arguments, including as we will learn, all the way

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Speaker 1: up to the Supreme Court, that say, well, it may

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Speaker 1: have started religious, but there are many secular benefits two, um,

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Speaker 1: sort of forcing families to all be off work on

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Speaker 1: the same day at gunpoint, go play together, right, take

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Speaker 1: a walk. So I propose we talked about the history

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Speaker 1: of blue laws first and then kind of get into

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Speaker 1: some of the wackier ones and then talk about legality

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Speaker 1: and so on, and so you could call what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing now the table of contents? Do you agree to

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Speaker 1: this table of contents? Uh? So? Are you saying you

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Speaker 1: want to skip ahead to the where did blue laws

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Speaker 1: come from? That is my proposal. Okay, I love you

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Speaker 1: springing this stuff on me. I am flexible, though I

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Speaker 1: know nimble, I know crazy. All I have to do

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Speaker 1: is shuffle some paper. Okay, you're eighteen. I mean it

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Speaker 1: makes sense because, yeah, if you are an outside observer,

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Speaker 1: even if you're an inside observer, you might not realize

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Speaker 1: how ancient that the Blue laws are and that they actually, um,

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Speaker 1: conceivably they don't necessarily predate Christianity, but they weren't necessarily Um,

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Speaker 1: they're pretty old. How about that? Well? Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: anyone who grew up going to church knows about the

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Speaker 1: ten Commandments and knows that that fourth commandment says, remember

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Speaker 1: the Sabbath day to keep it holy or and keep

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Speaker 1: it holy. And depending on what religion you are, that

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Speaker 1: could be a different day. Judaism Saturday. If your Seventh

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Speaker 1: day Adventist, that's Saturday. But Christianity at a certain point

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Speaker 1: between the second and fifth centuries were like, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's distance ourselves from Judaism and let's move our day

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Speaker 1: to Sunday. Uh that way we can have our own day.

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Speaker 1: We can tell everybody they're observing the wrong day, and

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Speaker 1: it's a win win. Yeah. There's also, um the knock

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Speaker 1: on effect of taking over Sunday from the Pagans who

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Speaker 1: um observed Sunday as the day to worship the Sun Sunday.

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Speaker 1: So it was basically total and complete encroachment and actually

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Speaker 1: moving the day, the Sabbath day to Sunday. That that

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Speaker 1: caused that. It's pretty pretty interesting. I hadn't known that before,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's so, let's so now we have like

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Speaker 1: the Christians saying, okay, everybody change the plans like that

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Speaker 1: guy on the Fidelity commercial change plants. I haven't seen that.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, it sounds like a Bond villain. It's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, So the point was that the Christians said okay, everybody,

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Speaker 1: the Sabbath is now on Sunday. And then they followed

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Speaker 1: that up with really enforcing that that originally Jewish um tenant,

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Speaker 1: which was like basically, observe a day of rest and

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Speaker 1: worship on the Sabbath and don't do anything else. Right,

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Speaker 1: And um, we don't know exactly when the first laws

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Speaker 1: were enacted, but it could have been. And this is

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Speaker 1: the grabster that helped put this one together for us.

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Speaker 1: So thanks to add for that. But uh, possibly in

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Speaker 1: three sixty three, a d at the Council of uh

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Speaker 1: Ladocia does see you. I would say, Leo to see you,

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Speaker 1: Leo to see you. That's my I thought that a

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Speaker 1: might be silent. But weren't you raised Baptists. You don't

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Speaker 1: know about the council of Leo to see you. I

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Speaker 1: had never heard of it, truly, you are Joe King.

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Speaker 1: I am Joey al right, Because that was a meeting

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Speaker 1: of of leaders in the Christian religion who said we

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Speaker 1: need to get some laws on the books. I'm surprised

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Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of it, but I hadn't or possibly

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Speaker 1: the first laws were from ancient Rome, uh, and I

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Speaker 1: saw various Roman emperors who could have been responsible for these.

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Speaker 1: I saw Constantine in three twenty one. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: I saw one of the other dudes. But I got

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Speaker 1: that from the Valdosta Times. Take that or leave it,

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Speaker 1: that's right. So so you had a bunch of Christian rulers,

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Speaker 1: essentially is the upshot of all this that kind of

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Speaker 1: took over and started issuing these proclamations and new crees

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Speaker 1: and stuff about observing the Sabbath. Right. Yeah, for like

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Speaker 1: hundreds of years this happened in various ways, various loss thing.

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Speaker 1: You can do this, you can't do that. Uh, it

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Speaker 1: was I think the Protestants were a little less into it,

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Speaker 1: but not real I mean, they were still into it.

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Speaker 1: I think it would be disingenuous to say the Protestants

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Speaker 1: were just fine with it, well supposedly with doing whatever

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Speaker 1: on Sunday, supposedly, right. I think it wasn't that they

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Speaker 1: weren't They weren't cool with just not having a day,

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Speaker 1: a Sabbath day of some sort. It was Martin Luther

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Speaker 1: wasn't big in following the old time rules, and he

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Speaker 1: was saying, it doesn't have to be Sunday, don't be ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: just but do a day a week. Um. But the

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Speaker 1: irony of the whole thing is that Protestants would come

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Speaker 1: to be like some of the biggest enforcers and writers

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Speaker 1: of blue laws in America, especially as Sunday being the

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Speaker 1: Sabbath day, like defending Sunday in particular, right, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, these get enacted there. Obviously, when the colonies

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Speaker 1: are being formed, they make their way over there. The

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Speaker 1: Puritans were like, oh, great, this is perfect. We're all

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Speaker 1: about restricting people whenever Sunday. That's fine, we'll restrict people

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Speaker 1: on Sunday. And by the time the colonies roll around,

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Speaker 1: they were pretty well ensconced, such that there's even a story.

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Speaker 1: I think you can really do much of anything on

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Speaker 1: Sunday's in the colonial times. But there's a story from

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Speaker 1: Sight nine where supposedly George Washington himself was was tracked

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Speaker 1: down or at least stopped by a sheriff for going

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Speaker 1: for traveling on a Sunday, even though he was traveling

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Speaker 1: to church. Yeah, because the premise was that um, saddling

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Speaker 1: up your horse or connecting a team of horses to

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Speaker 1: a carriage or whatever that constituted labor, and you weren't

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Speaker 1: doing any kind of labor on Sunday. And and speaking

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Speaker 1: of the colonies, chock I turned up something about James

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Speaker 1: Town's Blue Laws. Um, they had their first blue law

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Speaker 1: enacted in sixteen ten, like right out of the gate.

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Speaker 1: One of the first things they said was, here's some

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Speaker 1: blue laws. Everybody gather around. So basically you couldn't do

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Speaker 1: like you were saying, anything on a Sunday. And uh,

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Speaker 1: tendency at church was mandatory on Sunday. So the blue

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Speaker 1: laws actually made a lot more sense in that context, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: but I'm guessing there was that there's probably some sort

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Speaker 1: of like social you know, people snitching on one another

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, like you notice who's not here, right, right,

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Speaker 1: But in that context, the blue law makes more sense

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Speaker 1: because it's like, you were supposed to be in church

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Speaker 1: and if you do anything other than church, here are

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Speaker 1: your punishments. Right, But the punishments were really severe, Like

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Speaker 1: the first time you were caught doing anything but going

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Speaker 1: to church on a Sunday, you would go a week

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Speaker 1: without food. Like they you got your food from like

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Speaker 1: the village. The village all gathered and shared food. It

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Speaker 1: was super socialist, right, and you weren't you were disinvited

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Speaker 1: from that party until the next Sabbath. You did not

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Speaker 1: get food, and that usually was enough to straighten anybody out.

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Speaker 1: The second time you would lose your allowance for a week,

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Speaker 1: and then you would also be whipped at the stake.

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Speaker 1: The third time, they just told you. The third time

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Speaker 1: they caught you doing something other than going to church

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Speaker 1: on the Sabbath, even say after you'd been to church

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Speaker 1: that day, you they would kill you. That was the

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Speaker 1: punishment for So they were quite serious about that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Um. But over time that kind of fell

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Speaker 1: away fell to the wayside, especially as America took up

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Speaker 1: this project UM that was led by people like Thomas

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Speaker 1: Jefferson called um disestablishmentarianism, right, yeah, and that's from the

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Speaker 1: original word disestablishment. And then of course the very famous

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Speaker 1: longer word that every elementary school student knows and can

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Speaker 1: spell is the longest weird Is it still the longest word?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, anti disestablishmentarianism, yes, which I always thought

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Speaker 1: was just like what does that even mean? Like is

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Speaker 1: that a real word? But it's a real word, And

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Speaker 1: now that we know what all this means, it makes

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Speaker 1: perfect sense. Yeah, because disestablishmentarianism was that movement that basically said, look,

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Speaker 1: we need to get the government out of the business

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Speaker 1: of supporting churches because there's a lot more churches than

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Speaker 1: there used to be when we when we were colonies,

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Speaker 1: a lot of different Christian sects, and the government shouldn't

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Speaker 1: really throw its lawt into one against the other. That's

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Speaker 1: a really English thing to do, because the I think

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Speaker 1: even in the nineties, there was a movement or there's

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Speaker 1: still a movement of foot in the UK to basically

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Speaker 1: be like, okay, state, stop supporting the Anglican Church. It's

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Speaker 1: not you know, there should be a separation. The Americans

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Speaker 1: picked up on that very early on, and so that

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Speaker 1: led to this um like a bunch of laws and

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Speaker 1: stuff that basically said, we're we're supporting religious freedom, not

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Speaker 1: casting our lot with one particular sect or religion or another.

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Speaker 1: So here in America you can practice whatever religion you

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Speaker 1: want and the go you can you can expect the

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Speaker 1: government not to promote some other rival religion, somebody else's

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Speaker 1: team over yours, because that's not fair. All right, you

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Speaker 1: know what, that's a great cliffhanger. Uh, we'll take a

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Speaker 1: little break here and we'll talk about what that resulted in, right,

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Speaker 1: after this, all right, So here's where we are. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the United States gets hit into disestablishment, which basically was, hey,

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Speaker 1: we can't throw all of our eggs in one denominational basket,

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Speaker 1: because there are a lot of different denominations here and

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Speaker 1: we respect them all long as they're Christian. Basically that's

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Speaker 1: a parenthetical to that song title. And uh, you know what,

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Speaker 1: what kind of happened was the I guess there's no

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Speaker 1: other way to say it other than Evangelicals Protestant evangelical said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this is a great opportunity for us

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Speaker 1: to really sort of grab the reins of power and

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Speaker 1: to put our our morals and our values on everybody

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Speaker 1: else through law. Yeah, because you know they're every single

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Speaker 1: average American wasn't like, yeah, government, get out of the

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Speaker 1: business of supporting churches and get into just freedom of religion.

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Speaker 1: There are plenty of people and this is the late

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century and early nineteenth century, first half and nineteenth century, Um,

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Speaker 1: there are plenty of people who are like, no, I

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Speaker 1: I you guys have supported my church forever. Let's just

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Speaker 1: keep doing that. And so in that kind of sense

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Speaker 1: of probably a certain sense of betrayal or loss of trust.

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Speaker 1: A lot of religious leaders became political and and stepped

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Speaker 1: up that that that amazing word anti disestablishmentarianism, which is

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Speaker 1: fighting against that idea and basically saying, no America supports

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Speaker 1: um Protestant churches. Basically America is waspy, is what they

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Speaker 1: were trying to say. Yeah, and it's funny, like if

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Speaker 1: you think that this sort of thing started happening in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, that was just a re establishment, like

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Speaker 1: it started happening in the seventeen eighties. Really, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was the anti disestablishmentarianism revival, that's right. Uh they printed

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Speaker 1: t shirts for uh, for Christian universities, and they they

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Speaker 1: sold like hotcakes, I think. But uh so, all right,

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Speaker 1: here's what they're doing. They're trying to establish power. But

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Speaker 1: there's a problem and that as America grew, the economy

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Speaker 1: grew and businesses grew, and it didn't necessarily jibe with

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Speaker 1: this shut everything down one day of the weak mentality.

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Speaker 1: They were like, hey, there's there's money to be made

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Speaker 1: on these days, and there are things to do on

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Speaker 1: these days off that you're sort of making a stake.

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Speaker 1: So there was sort of conflict even way back then

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Speaker 1: between I guess the secular and the religious. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I mean I think that's ultimately the thing that that

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Speaker 1: is the greatest tension at the heart of this, at

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Speaker 1: least in America, this idea like, no, the whole the

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Speaker 1: whole purpose of government, the whole reason for everyone living

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Speaker 1: is to make a lot of money for certain select

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Speaker 1: group of people. Serverybody, get back to work. What are

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Speaker 1: you talking about taking a the day off on Sunday.

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Speaker 1: That's a full day. You could be making us profit.

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Speaker 1: And so that that um became diametrically opposed to the

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Speaker 1: idea of blue laws. And you had two really powerful institutions,

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Speaker 1: the church or all of the churches that celebrated the

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Speaker 1: sabboth On on Sunday, versus the captains of industry who

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Speaker 1: were just now starting to really make on godly amounts

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Speaker 1: of money during the Second Industrial Revolution in the United States,

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Speaker 1: that's right, as well as Jewish people and Seventh day

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Speaker 1: Adventists and just regular secular people who were just like, uh, no,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't be doing stuff like this at all. Like

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Speaker 1: what is separation of church and state all about? If

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Speaker 1: we're still going to do stuff like this. I'm really

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Speaker 1: glad you said that too. Because one thing that blue

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Speaker 1: laws do is make really strange bedfellows. So in league

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Speaker 1: with the churchy types, you had labor unions and you

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Speaker 1: still do. Actually, labor unions still typically tend to support

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Speaker 1: blue laws because religious or not, their workers are still

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Speaker 1: getting the day off on Sunday with their families. And

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Speaker 1: on the other side, like you said, it's captains of industry,

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Speaker 1: along with Seventh day Adventists and Jewish people, along with

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Speaker 1: secular types. I mean, like those are those are not

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Speaker 1: groups that you would normally put together on the kickball

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Speaker 1: field or something, you know, that's right. And they had

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Speaker 1: a couple of names. The Sabbatarians were the Evangelicals, the

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Speaker 1: Protestant Evangelicals, Uh, and like you said, labor unions and

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Speaker 1: groups like that. And then the Anti Sabbatarians were the others.

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Speaker 1: And you know, they kind of battled it out for

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Speaker 1: a little while, and in the end, it turns out,

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Speaker 1: and this should come as no surprise, Uh, there were

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Speaker 1: more anti Sabbatarians who were like, no, we should not

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Speaker 1: have these days often, we should separate church and state.

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Speaker 1: But the Sabbatarians were louder, and they were more um,

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Speaker 1: they were more fired up basically, and they got people

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Speaker 1: out to vote more, and they've got people to sign

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Speaker 1: petitions more and to put more pressure on officials who

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Speaker 1: decided these things. And so in the end what they

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Speaker 1: did it was I mean, I don't know if it

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Speaker 1: was a win win or a lose lose. The blue

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Speaker 1: laws kind of stayed pretty firmly entrenched on the books,

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Speaker 1: but the anti Sabbatarians were able to carve out certain

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Speaker 1: exceptions basically like hey, we should be able to do

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Speaker 1: this in this and maybe stores can be open. But

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Speaker 1: then the Sabbatarians are like, yeah, but no alcohol what soever.

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Speaker 1: So it kind of played out like this. I don't

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Speaker 1: know calling in a negotiation is the right term, but

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Speaker 1: a long drawn out battle, let's call it a compromise. Sure.

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Speaker 1: So the the effect of all of this is that

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Speaker 1: over time in the you know, it seemed like in

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century, it really started to get to a road. Um,

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Speaker 1: these little these exceptions got like bigger and bigger and

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Speaker 1: carved out more and more of these blanket blue laws

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Speaker 1: that remember originally started out is basically like you cannot

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Speaker 1: do anything on Sunday, And then it was like except

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Speaker 1: you can go and buy ice cream at the beach,

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Speaker 1: or you can buy milk, but you're not allowed to

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Speaker 1: buy anything to put milk in. Um, just all sorts

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Speaker 1: of weird stuff that made the whole thing seem really arbitrary.

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Speaker 1: And there's this idea like um like, Okay, if you

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Speaker 1: were if you're going to the beach, you can buy

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Speaker 1: ice cream at the beach, but if you went into town,

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Speaker 1: you would not be able to illegally buy ice cream.

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Speaker 1: How does that make any sense? Well, it does in

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Speaker 1: a certain way depending on how you look at the

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Speaker 1: role of government. And in this case, it is arbitrary.

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Speaker 1: It is it does impact one group in town storekeepers

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Speaker 1: in favor of another group beach side ice cream vendors. Right,

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Speaker 1: But if you believe that the role of government is

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Speaker 1: in part not just to support the economic activity of

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Speaker 1: the citizens of the United States, but instead to support

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Speaker 1: their well being as well, then it does make sense

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Speaker 1: because what they're basically saying is, Okay, we want to

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Speaker 1: encourage people to take that trip to the beach with

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Speaker 1: their family on Sunday. And what makes a beach trip

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Speaker 1: that much more enjoyable ice cream. I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: ever had ice cream on the beach I haven't either,

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Speaker 1: but apparently it was like all the rage during the

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Speaker 1: thirties and forties and fifties. I get it. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's I bet it's nice. I love ice cream and

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Speaker 1: I love beaches. We gotta try it sometime. We have

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Speaker 1: to go to a beach and eat some ice cream

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Speaker 1: very soon, chunk. Yeah, sure, so it makes sense in

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Speaker 1: that in that respect. But yes, if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: one of those people who are like, no, these laws

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Speaker 1: all need to make sense, they need to follow all

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Speaker 1: the rules, then you probably have a pretty big problem

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Speaker 1: with blue laws. Yes, should we talk about a few

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Speaker 1: of these blue laws still in the books? I think so.

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Speaker 1: So we mentioned Georgia, Like I said, up until just

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, it was on the ballot to

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Speaker 1: be allowed to buy alcohol on the Sundays. But still

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Speaker 1: if you go to Sunday brunch, and this was the

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Speaker 1: same in believe it or not in New York until

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Speaker 1: if you go to brunch on a Sunday you couldn't

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Speaker 1: buy booze at a bar or restaurant until noon. I

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Speaker 1: think in New York they changed it to ten. But

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Speaker 1: I think in Georgia, I don't really do brunch much anymore.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's still noon. As far as I know,

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Speaker 1: it's still noon. But yeah, I haven't done brunch a

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Speaker 1: couple of years now. So if you if you get

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Speaker 1: the jump on things and you're like, oh, we gotta

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Speaker 1: beat those brunch crowds and get there at eleven, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a reason the brunch crowds come later. And it

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Speaker 1: ain't church, no, but that is. But church is the

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Speaker 1: reason why they set that time on Sundays to start

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Speaker 1: around noon, because it's like, okay, everybody has a reasonable

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Speaker 1: chance to go to the morning services and then they

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Speaker 1: can get drunk. Everyone wins. Basically. It's funny. I remember

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Speaker 1: growing up in the Baptist Church. There were it was

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Speaker 1: just sort of this implied agreement between the congregation, most

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Speaker 1: of the congregation, and the preacher that like you wrap

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Speaker 1: it up by noon because of lunch and football basically,

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Speaker 1: And it was you know, there were some Sundays where like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the spirit was was raging within the church

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Speaker 1: and things would start to you know, he'd be feeling

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Speaker 1: it and things would start to go a little long,

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Speaker 1: and uh, you you would really sense the shifting of

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Speaker 1: bodies and the looking at watches and the unease among

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Speaker 1: the congregation, usually like the dads that are like all right,

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Speaker 1: like I'm glad everyone's feeling it and everything, but the

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Speaker 1: Falcons kick off soon. We need to get out of here. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I remember being a kid, like being like twelve

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Speaker 1: years old and sensing that and being on the side

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Speaker 1: of football. Yeah, that's funny. I have the opposite experience

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Speaker 1: where I'm I'm like, I always dread somebody tying it

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Speaker 1: up and going into overtime and preempting sixty minutes on Sunday.

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Speaker 1: It happened this past Sunday as recently, is that I

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Speaker 1: could tell at the beginning of the fourth quarter that

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Speaker 1: the Cowboys and the Patriots were going to tie it

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Speaker 1: up and go over time, and I have course right

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Speaker 1: to wait like an extra hour for sixty minutes. Do

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Speaker 1: you still watch sixty minutes? Yeah? I watched them more

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Speaker 1: than ever now. It's really great. I used to watch

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Speaker 1: it as I believe it or not, as like a

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Speaker 1: high school student. I was really into it, and maybe

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Speaker 1: some in college, but I haven't really watched it in

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Speaker 1: a long time. That's interesting then, because they had around

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Speaker 1: that time, and like the early nineties, they had a

404
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Speaker 1: very um a very famous piece on the Council of

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Speaker 1: Leo to see you. Do they still use that stop watch? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Alright, good crew they've got they've

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Speaker 1: got a good crew together. Yeah. Are there any remnants

408
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Speaker 1: anyone's still around from the old days? Scott Pelly's on there.

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Speaker 1: He's been on there for a while. I think, right,

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Speaker 1: Oh see, that's it shows how long it's been for me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, is Morley Safer around? I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: think Morley Safer might be dead. I think they're probably

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Speaker 1: all gone. And Indersting Cooper's on there though, he's great too, FONSI.

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Speaker 1: Everybody on there is fantastic. They should have you on.

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Speaker 1: There's no need for them to have me on. I'm

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Speaker 1: just a fan. No, but that could be your next

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Speaker 1: That could be like your retirement job hosting sixty minutes,

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Speaker 1: doing pieces on sixty minutes. Yeah, you'd be great. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's true, but I appreciate the voter.

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Speaker 1: Cool would that be? I can hear that that ticking

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Speaker 1: much behind you as you speak. I know it makes

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Speaker 1: me tense, or it would make me tense if I

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Speaker 1: actually worked for him, you know, I think I would

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Speaker 1: ruin sixty minutes. For me, I'd just rather kick back

425
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: and watch it, you know, all right, yeah, work so

426
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: much some of the other really interesting blue laws. And

427
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: we should say too that there are there are blue

428
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: laws on the books in a lot of places that

429
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: aren't enforced. And then there are blue laws on the

430
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: books that are still enforced. Uh in Texas, Illinois, and

431
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: I think North Dakota. I think it's North Dakota. You

432
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: cannot sell a car or by I guess you. I

433
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: guess you could sell one. I wonder if you're breaking

434
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: the law if you sell one like on Craiglist or something.

435
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: I think there's no car sales whatsoever allowed. And here's why.

436
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: Here's why that one. I was like, okay, I do

437
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: not get this one, and I have the search pretty

438
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: far and wide for why. But apparently it was one

439
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: of those things that's like a remnant from when you

440
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: couldn't do anything. And then they started making exceptions and

441
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: started making exceptions saying, Okay, you can open this kind

442
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: of store, you can sell this kind of item, and

443
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: cars just never got accepted because the car dealerships didn't

444
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: want that any longer, Like it made sense, Like they

445
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: wanted a day off. It's really hard work. They wanted

446
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: to give time off to their employees. They also didn't

447
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: want to have to pay to keep the lights on

448
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: and all that stuff an extra day. But if even

449
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: one dealership was allowed to stay open, then all of

450
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: them would go to So if there was a state

451
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: law that said no car dealerships can be open, then

452
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: that gave the people in the car dealership industry that

453
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: day off that they otherwise definitely would not have had.

454
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: So it makes sense in that case, you know what

455
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like it makes would start selling exactly, and

456
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: then everyone's like, you see what McIntyre is doing, we

457
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: gotta open up now. And there's even there's In Texas

458
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: in particular, they allowed for UM Jewish or Seventh Day

459
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: Adventist car dealership owners by saying, okay, you can you can, UM,

460
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: you don't have to close on Sunday, but if you

461
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: don't close on Sunday, you have to close on Saturday.

462
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: So one day out of the weekend your dealership has

463
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: to be closed, which helped keep from promoting unfair competition. Right, well,

464
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: it's football is big in Texas. I wonder if it

465
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: comes down to you into college, you into pro I

466
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: saw somewhere that the NFL played on Sunday because early

467
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: on they couldn't compete with college games held on Saturday.

468
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure if that's true or not. That

469
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: makes sense, and I think now, uh, they are almost

470
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: expressly prohibited from having Saturday games in the NFL, yes,

471
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: because of an agreement with the n c double A.

472
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: But I think there's the exception. I think sometimes at

473
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: one point in the playoffs they have like one weekend,

474
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: whether it's a Saturday game in like December or something

475
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: like that. They're all think that it's like a law.

476
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy, That's like a federal law. There's like

477
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 1: has something to do with broadcasting or something like that.

478
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: You know that the NFL plays in London, uh occasionally

479
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: now to like um, and my buddy Justin from London

480
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: was wondering. He was like, why are they playing these

481
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: games at nine in the morning US time, because like

482
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: they could have them at a more appropriate time in England.

483
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: And I was like, dude, that means it's because of advertising.

484
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: That means from nine am they can lock up the

485
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: entire TV day. Yeah, they did, this past weekend, and

486
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: they preempted CBS Sunday morning too. That's right, they can

487
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: lock it up from nine am till four thirty or whatever.

488
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: It was a hell day. Basically, this past Sunday was

489
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: hellish for me. It was a hell sabbath. I thought

490
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: you like football. No, no, no, I don't really watch

491
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: football anymore. And I definitely have never been into pro

492
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: I used to be into college. Yeah, all right, but

493
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: that's final. I don't poop poo it or anything like that.

494
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: I'm just not No. I got you. Uh, Maine, in Virginia,

495
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to hunt on Sundays. Um, Maine is

496
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: sort of uh. We love our we manor friends. But

497
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: they up until nineteen you couldn't shop in a department

498
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: store on Sunday. That one makes sense because department stores

499
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: sold so many different items that they said it's just

500
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: easier for you to stay closed on Sundays. Yeah. And

501
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: it's interesting because you know, there's the case of Bergen County,

502
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: New Jersey, which, um, that's here's the deal. That's in

503
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: Bergen County. It's a hold over from the old days,

504
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: but it has more to do with um helping the

505
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: mom and pop stores because in the I guess it

506
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: was in the nineteen fifties, Bergen County was one of

507
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: the first big suburbs outside of New York and it

508
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: was I think one of the first big um areas

509
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: of like kind of shopping mall retail experience kind of

510
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: thing in the United States. And they I mean, I

511
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: was trying to think of a different way to say that,

512
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: and the idea was and and still is. And you know,

513
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: when I said it a minute ago, we talked about

514
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: mom and pop stores on Sundays, like having to pay employees.

515
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: That's really what it came down to was mom and

516
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: pop stores were willing to close on Sunday so they

517
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: could rest and chill out with their family or maybe

518
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: go to church, and they wouldn't have to pay their

519
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: employees and they wouldn't have to pay as much electricity

520
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: and just the cost of operating. But the big box

521
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: stores moved in and they didn't care. They could afford

522
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: to keep the lights on, they could afford to pay

523
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: their employees, and they didn't want to lose that revenue.

524
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, the mom and pop stores

525
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: were getting crushed on Sundays by these larger chain stores

526
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: and these shopping malls and so Bergen County still is

527
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: the one holdout in the United States in Bergen County,

528
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: New Jersey, where you you can't shop basically on a Sunday, right,

529
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: And it's and it's come up time and time again,

530
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: and they keep saying no. Yeah. I think as recently

531
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: as two thousand thirteen they couldn't even get enough signatures

532
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: to get it onto the ballot, let alone vote. I

533
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: think they just like it. They do, and I saw

534
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: it's not just because they know it helps mom and

535
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: pop stores or it gives people a day off, but

536
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: that UM apparently traffic around there is a living nightmare

537
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: every other day of the week. So it's at least

538
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: one day we're traffic this one day. Yeah. The North

539
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: Dakota ban is really interesting. I think they had one

540
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: of the last statewide bands on shopping known as Offenses

541
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: against Religion and conscious Conscience repealed in UM. But they

542
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: the exceptions are what's always strange. Their exceptions where ice cream, newspapers, cigars,

543
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: medicine of course, restaurants, hotels, and owner operated stores with

544
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: three employees are fewer. Yeah, that is strange for sure,

545
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: but I think it's not necessarily um peculiar. Like I

546
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: think that's how most blue laws ended up uh in

547
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: states where they have prohibitions on shopping, because over time

548
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: a lot abousts would show up and one of their

549
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: friends would end up as governor or legislature and they

550
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: would get their particular industry carved out as an exception. No,

551
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: not that there are exceptions. I just think what's carved

552
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: out is always really interesting to me. I found this

553
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: article from when they repealed Texas as blue laws. They

554
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: were in force from ninety five, and this article was

555
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: just talking about how weird they were by and they

556
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: said that you could go into a store and you

557
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: could buy a blank video tape, but you couldn't buy

558
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: one a video tape with something already on it, which

559
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: is this just does a little so weird and interesting,

560
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: and they made sense in some way. But then I'm

561
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: sure somebody was like, you know that that exception was

562
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: made before there wasn't even such a thing as videotapes,

563
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: And then even now it's even funnier because there's not

564
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: videotapes any longer. They're already come and gone, right, But

565
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: like you're saying, it's all about who cares, like what

566
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: lobby cares the most. Like the cigars thing in North Dakota,

567
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: just obviously somebody with a steak in a cigar company

568
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: grease the right palms. Yeah. Same in Maryland, Um, as

569
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: we'll see, had a lot of laws, a lot of

570
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: restrictions on it, but they had all tobacco products were

571
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: exempted because it was a huge tobacco state in like

572
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: the mid century, during the mid century, last century. All right,

573
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: I think we should take another our final break here

574
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about, you know, whether these things are

575
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: legal and what the Supreme Court and the Feds have

576
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: to say about all this coming up. Okay, Chuck, So

577
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: we're talking about legality because, like we said, anybody who

578
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: takes even a cursory look at these laws can can

579
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: make a pretty great argument that these should not be

580
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: on the books. That number one, the government shouldn't be

581
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: regulating anything that has anything to do with religion. Certainly

582
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: shouldn't be telling people who don't practice religion to to

583
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: observe this religious day. It's a big one. But then

584
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: also they just don't really make a lot of sense.

585
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: And that's another kind of litmus test for laws. They're

586
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: supposed to be sensible and apply to basically everyone equally. Sure,

587
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: because this is America. Yeah, so you would think then

588
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court would have taken one look at

589
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: these things and been like, get these out of here,

590
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: get them out of my face. And that is not

591
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: the case, because not only did the Supreme Court get

592
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: its shot at um ruling on blue laws as early

593
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: as nineteen sixty one, it is pretty much consistently upheld

594
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: the legality and the constitutionality of blue laws ever since then. Yeah.

595
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: And you know, we should note that these none of

596
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: these are federal laws. They are all at the most

597
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: state laws, but many times even like local ordinances and

598
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: city and kind of county laws. But I think it

599
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: was McGowan versus Maryland v. Maryland in nine which went

600
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court and and this, uh, you know,

601
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting that Maryland is the one that kind of

602
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: keeps getting talked about because of their um, I guess,

603
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: their tobacco laws and then their beach their beach scene.

604
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: They want to sell that ice cream on the beach definitely,

605
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: and floaties and stuff like that, right, uh, And Supreme

606
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: I think the they went eight one in Maryland's favor,

607
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: saying that blue laws could stand, and Chief Justice Earl

608
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: Warren wrote this opinion that basically says, yeah, you know,

609
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: it may have started out as religious, but like we

610
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: said earlier, it serves the secular society and there's a

611
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: benefit to everybody basically to have a regulated day of rest.

612
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 1: And William Douglas this, I think it was the lone

613
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: dissenter and basically in his opinion was like, that's a

614
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: load of horse manure. We all know what these are

615
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: there for, and like, I'm not buying it. No. And

616
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: Earl Warren, I don't know if his interpretation would be

617
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: constructionalist or what, but in his opinion he basically said,

618
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: the Constitution says that the government won't infringe on somebody's

619
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: religious rights. And I don't see how anybody who is

620
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,479
Speaker 1: saying that they're being forced to take the day off

621
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: has their religious rights being infringed upon. And Douglas is like,

622
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: come on, man, that's not what anybody's saying. They're saying

623
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: that the government is basically supporting this Christian worldview of

624
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: Sunday being the sabbath by by allowing these laws that

625
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: enforce a day off on the Sabbath and that that

626
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: is just how that like, that's the government is supporting

627
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: a religion and that's not okay. Um, But the the

628
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: Supreme Court is just like consistently upheld Lawren's view that no,

629
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: these are actually okay because even if you're not a

630
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: religious person, you're benefiting benefiting from them anyway. Yeah, it

631
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: seems like William Douglas also wanted to make a point that,

632
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: like he was like, we're so firmly ensconced in this

633
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: uh Christian nation that like we don't even realize, like

634
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: Sunday shouldn't be different than any other day, and we don't.

635
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: We don't we have all these things in our society

636
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: that treats Sunday different because it was you know, it was.

637
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: It's such a Christian nation and like even though their

638
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: separation of church and state, like we don't even realize

639
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: that we're biased either for or against Sunday for those reasons. Yeah.

640
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: A really good thought experiment I stumbled on was imagining

641
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: the government decreeing Tuesday is the day of rest for everybody. Yeah, exactly,

642
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: and how bizarre that would seem to almost every single

643
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: person in America. Yeah, our podcast would be over because

644
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: that's when, Yeah, but that would be that like that

645
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: that really kind of um supports Douglas's point, like no,

646
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: like you guys are really coming from this, like it's

647
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 1: so entrenched into your your worldview that you can't imagine

648
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: Sunday is not a day of rest, like that's the

649
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: day of rest. But that is a Christian belief. It's

650
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: an ancient one, but that is at its root of

651
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: Christian belief. And that that if you are a separation

652
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: of church and state type like that will drive you

653
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: up the wall. That there are such thing as blue

654
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: laws and they have been deemed constitutional. But see, I'm

655
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: that way too, Like that stuff drives me crazy. But

656
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: as a as a secularist, Now, if I had a

657
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: dollar for every time I complained about like, oh, come on,

658
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: it's a Sunday. We all we all use Sunday as

659
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: either as an excuse to not do something or an

660
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: excuse to do something, like it's just become the national day.

661
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: I feel like, well, you're a warrant fan and you

662
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: don't even know it. I read this really interesting article

663
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: in box that was basically endorsing Warren's opinion is by

664
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: this economist named Lyman Stone. It's called why we Need

665
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: Blue Laws. I think the title is a little longer,

666
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: but if you search, that will turn this up. And um,

667
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: Lyman Stone was basically saying, like what what Chief Justice

668
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: Earl Warren is saying is actually a really progressive view

669
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: of the role of government. And it was what I

670
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: was saying earlier that the that that there's this interpretation

671
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: that government can exist as help support the well being

672
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: of its citizens. And one way to do that is

673
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: to say, hey, you know, yes, Sundays a Christian day. Yeah,

674
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: the churches are really making out like bandits with these

675
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: blue laws. Bully for them. You over here, come, come

676
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: talk to me over here. You're still getting a lot

677
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: out of this because you get the day off and

678
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: your whole family gets the day off all at the

679
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: same time. And trust me, you do not want to

680
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: work seven days a week. This is a really great

681
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: way for us, in a roundabout way, to make sure

682
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 1: you have the day off. And that is something that

683
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: that is going to help you and we as the

684
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: government interested in you not going crazy and shooting up

685
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: your workplace because you work too much. Right Ed points

686
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: out something too that I agree with a bit of

687
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: a paradox though with the Blue laws. If you're giving

688
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: people this day off together as a family, but you're

689
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: also closing businesses that you know, if that's your day

690
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 1: to do stuff or to get stuff done, even then

691
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: that's a paradox because all right, I've got Sunday off

692
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: with my family, but I can't go to the mall

693
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: if that's what you want to do if I live

694
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: in Bergen County. Right, So lyman Stone has an answer

695
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: for that as well. What does the stoner have to say?

696
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: Stoner says as follows. Basically, ts like, yeah, the post

697
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: office is closed on Sunday, go go take some time

698
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 1: and mail it another day, which, on the one hand,

699
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: it's like there's a lot of people who have to

700
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: take the bus and have to actually take time off

701
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: of work and could conceivably get fired from their job

702
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: for needing to go mail a package. Um. I think

703
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: lyman Stone would say, well, you should keep the post

704
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 1: offices open on Saturday. But the bigger risk, to liman

705
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: Stone is that if you keep some stuff open, like

706
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 1: restaurants or something like that, you actually create a second

707
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: class of workers who exist to serve the upper class

708
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: of workers who get Sunday off. And after all, isn't

709
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: that like pretty undemocratic and terrible to to kind of

710
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: separate people like that? Why not just close everything and

711
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: and give everybody everybody the same day off. That's the stone.

712
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: I feel that way sometimes when I'm doing something on

713
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: a Sunday and someone has to work, and I remember

714
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: having to work on Sunday and I hated it. It

715
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: comes home for me most done like say like Thanksgiving

716
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: or something where people have to work for Black Friday

717
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: or stuff like that like that, that to me, it's

718
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. But but that's when it really

719
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: sticks out to me. Well, this is something, my friend,

720
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: that you would think that there are studies about commerce

721
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: and economics, and surely they have proven one way or

722
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: the other which is the best way forward, right right

723
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: the end, Well, they have done some studies, and it

724
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: kind of depends on what study you're looking at as

725
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: as far as quantifying these effects and how they're measured.

726
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: But when it comes to alcohol, they have shown their

727
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: studies have shown that, um, there are not more car

728
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: accidents happening because people can drink on Sundays. And that's

729
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: you know, some people argue like, hey, people aren't drinking.

730
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: They may not be drinking and driving and then getting

731
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 1: in car crashes, but that hasn't really turned out that way. Yeah,

732
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: now that's pretty surprising too, um, because a lot of

733
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: these studies have turned up kind of counterintuitive things. Um.

734
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: There was a study conducted in Georgia that, um looked

735
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: like Georgia's a great test case because there's so many

736
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: counties that have blue laws and other counties that don't

737
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: have blue laws, so you can like just compare these

738
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: really similar populations with one another. And they found that, Um,

739
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: if you have a county that has a blue law

740
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: and one that doesn't, there's virtually no difference in alcohol

741
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: consumption between the two. But there are like little tiny changes, like, um,

742
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: the employees in the county without a blue law might

743
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: make slightly more money because they can work on Sundays. Um,

744
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: Or in counties that do have blue laws, liquor stores

745
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: make a little bit less than their counterparts and counties

746
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: without blue laws. Stuff you kind of expect. But the

747
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 1: difference in alcohol consumption, I thought that was a little interesting.

748
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: I guess people just load up more on Saturday night

749
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: than they would if they lived in the county that

750
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: wasn't dry on Sundays. Maybe maybe they're hungover on Sunday.

751
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: Maybe they just take it a little easier on Sundays

752
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: after work on Monday. Another counterintuitive effect as far as

753
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: shopping goes in places like Bergen County, UM is they

754
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: have found that people it doesn't decrease the overall retail

755
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: experience in terms of dollars. I love that term now,

756
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: the retail experience. Uh, you know, because some people argue like, oh,

757
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: if we close on Sundays, then you know, we're just

758
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: gonna lose out on business. But I think they have

759
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: found that when these laws are in place and people

760
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: know that they're closed on Sundays, they just do their

761
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: shopping Monday through Saturday, and they still buy the same

762
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: amount of stuff. Um. I found one study from two

763
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 1: thousand and eight from M I. T that was almost

764
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: like cartoonish in its results. Are you ready for this?

765
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: They studied fifty years of repeal blue laws, and they

766
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: found that blue laws. Repealing blue laws decreases church attendance

767
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: and church donations significantly, although there's no other change in

768
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: charitable activity. It's just churches who are basically now competing

769
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: against um other pastimes and activities, and the churches lose

770
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: big time unless they have state enforced support for people

771
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 1: to go to them in the form of blue laws.

772
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: And they also saw that repealing blue laws led to

773
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 1: an increase in drinking and drug use. And the increased

774
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: drinking and drug use was most pronounced in those people

775
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: who used to attend church but then stopped attending church

776
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: after the blue laws were repealed. So basically everything that

777
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: if you were into blue laws were afraid of this

778
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 1: two thousand eight m I T study said like, yeah, absolutely,

779
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: it's it's as bad as you think, maybe even worse.

780
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: Isn't that interesting? That's super interesting. Yeah. I guess the

781
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: last thing we need to cover is where the why

782
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: they're called blue laws. Uh, there are a lot of theories.

783
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: It says no one knows for sure, and I think

784
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: that's probably true. But the one I've seen most often,

785
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: although it is the Internet, so that really means nothing,

786
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: is that the Puritans. I saw that they wrote their

787
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: laws in general on blue paper. Then I also saw

788
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 1: where they wrote their Sunday laws specifically on blue paper.

789
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: That one makes sense more than the other. Yes, the

790
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: thing is is no historian ever in the world has

791
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: ever turned up example of one of these things, right,

792
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: so that one might be apocryphal. There's another one that,

793
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: um it makes a really good point that there's some

794
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: slang terms that were in existence around the time that

795
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: these laws started being called blue laws about the end

796
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: of the eighteenth century, and the two slang terms were

797
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: blue nose and blue stocking, and both of them basically

798
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: referred to a prudish, rigid person who was so miserly

799
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: that they just saved money anyway they could. The one

800
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: had a blue nose because they wouldn't, you know, cough

801
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: up money for like heating in the winter time, so

802
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: their nose term blue, and the other was that they

803
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 1: had blue stockings because they use blue yarn to med

804
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: their socks rather than getting new ones. But either way,

805
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: it kind of like paints a pretty pretty good picture.

806
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: Something tells me, if you like, saw somebody's tip they

807
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: left and you're like, nice tip, blue nose, right, that

808
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: they would probably think that's super like offensive or something.

809
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 1: Probably probably, and I'm not convinced there's not some really

810
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 1: bad offense in there somewhere that we're just not seeing.

811
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,479
Speaker 1: It's possible isn't there some something to be taken offense too?

812
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 1: And everything? Probably Blue knows ouch you got anything else?

813
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: I do not, sir, Well, if you want to know

814
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: more about Blue laws, start studying them. They are hilarious

815
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: and entertaining. And since I said hilarious and entertaining, it's time,

816
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: of course for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this

817
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: follow up to I don't know about that. Yeah, I

818
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: think it was during um the research bias episode. I

819
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: talked about a certain breed. I'm sure it happens everywhere,

820
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: but there's a certain breed of Southerner. When they're being

821
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: debated and presented with literal facts, they just go on,

822
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 1: I don't know about that, and that's sort of the

823
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: end of things. And so this is from Rebecca. I

824
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: was glad to see this email. Chuck talked about how

825
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: much he hated it when people say I don't know

826
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: about that when presented with evidence that contradicts their worldview.

827
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: There's a term for that. It's called a thought terminating cliche,

828
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 1: almost aid circle, which is a dismissive tactic as a speaker,

829
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: and they will use it to end a debate when

830
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: they encounter cognitive dissonance, or when someone presents them with

831
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: facts that run counter to their established beliefs. Other examples are, boy,

832
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: I hate all these let's agree to disagree. Yeah, that's

833
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: sometimes it's like that's the only way to end a conversation. No,

834
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: I think, just say it a different way. There's something

835
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: about that that I just don't like. Oh so it's

836
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: the cliche part you don't like more than the thought

837
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: terminating part. It's both, but definitely if it was said

838
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: in another way, I'd probably be more apt to accept it.

839
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: How About let's continue to not agree on this forever,

840
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: but both be okay, what's that? Yeah, yeah, there you can. Uh,

841
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 1: that's just your opinion is another one, and it's all good.

842
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: That's the worst, especially when that's followed by bro and

843
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: said by somebody who has a sole path. I unfortunately

844
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: don't know what what tactics there are to respond to

845
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: such cliches and reopen discussion. But maybe an episode on

846
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: intentional fallacies would be a great way to educate listeners

847
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: on the rhetorical tactics the journalist, politicians, and debaters used

848
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,399
Speaker 1: to sway the course of an argument. Anyway, it's all good,

849
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: and that is a great email. That's from Rebecca in Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Rebecca, that was indeed one of the tops as

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Speaker 1: far as emails we've received goes. Thank you for it.

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Speaker 1: Uh and if you want to see if you can

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00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: pull one up on Rebecca, let's hear it, you can

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Speaker 1: send us an email to stuff podcast did iHeart radio

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Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the

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