WEBVTT - Taking the Bar Exam During Pandemic 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.960 This is Bloomberg Law. Some complicated international law issues here. 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.840 What kind of docket is Chief Justice Roberts facing interviews 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.039 with prominent attorneys and Bloomberg Legal experts. Joining me is 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.280 Bloomberg New Supreme Court reporter Greg's Store, Neil Devons, a 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.159 professor at William and Mary Law School, and analysis of 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:22.840 important legal issues, cases and headlines. President Trump lost resoundingly 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.640 in the circuit courts and unusually large number of immigration cases. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:31.360 Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.000 Bloomberg Law. I'm Greg's Store in for June Grosso. Coming 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.240 up on the show. The Supreme Court rejects on the 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:41.400 Nevada church that said the state's coronavirus capacity restrictions discriminate 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.800 against religion. And we'll dive into the growing controversy over 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.600 the way states are conducting bird zams during the pandemic. 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.640 But first, earlier this month, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.760 Ginsburg revealed that she was again being treated for cancer. 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:56.800 That was about a week and a half after the 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.800 Court confirmed a Washington Post report that Chief Justice John R. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.080 Birds had been hospitalized after falling and hitting his forehead 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.800 with me to talk about the Supreme Court's disclosure practices 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.440 when it comes to health issues. Is Duke Law School 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:13.880 professor Marin Levy Maran, thanks very much for joining us. UM, 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.560 let's start with Justice Ginsburg. She's disclosed a lot of 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.640 health information over the years, but twice in the last 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.440 year a loan, she has revealed cancer only after the 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.520 treatment was proved to be working. Is what she is 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.000 revealing to the public enough in your mind? That's a 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.240 great question, Greg, and I just want to say, thanks 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.360 so much for having me on the show. Um. So, 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.080 I think the Justice has been very clear and disclosing 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.560 her health issues, but as you said, the issue seems 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.080 to be alone with timing. So we just learned um 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.360 a week and a half ago that she found out 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.960 in February that the cancer had returned. Um. She underwent 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.240 one treatment, meeto therapy that was not successful, and we 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.600 only now know about it because she's undergone a second 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.480 round of treatment, chemotherapy that seems to be doing much better. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.200 And I would say, um, it would have been helpful 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:09.720 to know about this sooner. And what about John Roberts, So, uh, 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.080 it was revealed this month he had fallen He hit 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:17.359 his forehead, got stitches, the most hospitalized overnight. The Supreme 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:22.079 Court doesn't reveal that until the Washington Post gets a 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.560 tip and asked about it. Is that something that you 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.120 would have liked to have seen John Roberts disclose on 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.440 his own without having to be prompted. Absolutely. So there, 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:34.840 I think we have two separate issues to one, as 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.160 you mentioned, is the timing, so we don't learn about 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.480 the incidents that happened in June until over two weeks 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.320 after it happened. But then second is the fact that 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.640 the Court did not come out and disclose the information. 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:50.959 It was only after the Post that he said, received 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.280 the tips, that they followed up with the Court, and 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.520 then we get the confirmation. This is the kind of 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:57.440 thing I think the Court really needs to be coming 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.880 out in front with. So so why is that? Why 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.600 do we need to know this sort of information about 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:08.520 Supreme Court justices? Yeah? Absolutely, I think it's a hard 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.639 question to be honest, really parsing out why the public 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.119 has an interest to know. I would say a couple 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.480 of things on this. The first is I think just 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.040 as a general matter, the public is interested in knowing 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.760 that the justices are in good health um to a 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.959 given how important they are in our democracy really um, 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.919 And the Court itself seems to acknowledge this. So if 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.240 you go back to the beginning of the pandemics, the 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.600 reporters actually asked the Court to start providing updates on 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.720 the justices health just to make sure they were doing okay, um, 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.840 they weren't being impacted by the coronavirus. And the Court 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:42.560 said yes, And as far as we know, we've been 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.840 receiving those updates. UM. So kind of general acknowledgment that 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.000 the public is interested in the health of the justices. 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.800 I think separately from that, we have a real interest 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.640 going into an election like this, Um. The Court is 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.840 on the mind of at least some voters. And if 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.040 we know that some of the ss are not in 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.720 good health, UM, that could impact the way people vote 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:08.720 in the upcoming election. Does it make a difference that 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:13.880 we're talking about physical ailments here as opposed to mental ailments? Uh, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:15.760 you know, to go back into history a little bit, 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:21.359 when Justice William Douglas back in the early seventies was 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.440 was losing some of his mental capacity. Uh. Arguably, perhaps 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.599 that that raised a different issue. Doesn't matter that we're 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.520 as far as we know, just talking about physical ailments. 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.800 So I don't think so. Um and again for a 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.839 couple of reasons. So the first being, and I hate 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.559 to talk about this, it reminds me something Chief Justice 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.560 Rank with that you know that there is this speculation 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.920 about the health of the justices that can run into 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.880 the kind of foolish if you put a territory um. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.400 But I do think, you know, it's fair to think about, um, 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:57.479 will the next administration be appointing any justice to the court. 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.200 And so part of that is we do think about 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.120 their health overall, not just their mental acuity. UM. So 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.039 So that's I think really the most important point. But 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.279 the other is a larger point about transparency. You know, 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.080 I think it's really critical for the legitimacy of the 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.080 Court that the public feel that the justices are being 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.080 honest with them um. And again, that we aren't having 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.520 these issues like we are now, where we're learning about 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.200 things only after the fact, and in some cases at 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:29.320 the prompting of of the media. How confident are you 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.719 that we know what we need to know? Um. You know, 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.760 we've talked about some health issues, some other justices have 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.880 have revealed things. Justice so do Mayor of course, has 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:46.239 been very upfront about her lifelong diabetes. Are you concerned 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.400 that there are other things that we don't know about 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:53.560 perhaps some other justices? So I am. I think you know, 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.159 the real problem is, at the end of the day, 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.400 we we just don't have confidence that we know everything 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.640 at this point, and in some ways, this most recent 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.840 incident with Justice Ginsburg underscores that. Um. You know, I 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.279 think all along we had fought we really knew everything 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.119 about her health records because she had been what seemed 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.920 to be quite forthcoming. And in fact, when Justice Roberts 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.479 had this recent health scare, UM, some folks I thought 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.080 it was problematic that we didn't hear about it sooner 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.960 and pointed to Justice Ginsberg, that's kind of a model 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.880 of somebody disclosing health issues. But now that that we 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:29.880 didn't even know some of her health history, UM, I 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.520 think raised as a whole host of questions. And it 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:34.719 really would be better if we had a clear policy 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.120 from the court um that we will know certain things 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.800 to say if Justice has a serious health scare that 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:46.320 we know within some you know, pretty quick timeframe. I 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.920 want to thank our guests. That's Duke Law School professor 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:53.120 Marin Levy talking about health issues and disclosures by Supreme 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.080 Court justices. Thanks very much for joining us on Bloomberg Law. 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.400 Coming up on the show, the coronavirus outbreak is giving 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.719 new life of the push for alternatives to the in 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:07.799 person bar exam. I'm Greg Store, this is Bloomberg. This 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.880 is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. I'm 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.240 Greg's story and for June Grasso. Summer is the traditional 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.960 time for recent law school graduates to gather in courthouses 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.280 and convention centers around the country to take the bar exam. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.520 But this is the summer of COVID nineteen, which makes 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.840 such large gatherings risky, and many states are scrambling to 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.560 revamp their test protocols with me as Sam Skolnick, who 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.120 has been covering these developments for Bloomberg Industry Group and 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:38.720 Bloomberg Business Week. Sam, thanks for joining us. UM give 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.400 us a big picture how many states are going ahead 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.880 with in person bar exams over the next few weeks. 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:52.240 As of actually Twomorrow and Wednesday, states are scheduled. Almost 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:55.160 half of the states are scheduled for in person exams. 0:07:55.680 --> 0:08:00.200 UM and then in September and or September October. There 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.240 are another thirteen, including a couple of the same states 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.880 which are offering men twice, but most of these are 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.120 separate states. UM. So in the end we're talking about 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.520 more than half of the states are still going ahead 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.640 with in personal exams UM over the next couple of months. 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.040 And of course this is happening in many states that 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.240 are now seeing COVID nineteen spikes for the first time, 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.880 or they're seeing a resurgence of the disease UH in 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.000 these states, and it's causing great and growing concern among 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.920 the test takers who are being asked to sit in 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.360 these in what are many cases huge examples UM right 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:44.440 next to scores, if not hundreds of other test takers UM. 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.240 Even if they're so, they're what the states are doing 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.920 is UH there. They are mandating social distancing requirements in 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.880 many cases, if not most, if not all, of these states. 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.240 I have in fact each of these states, but I 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.839 would imagine that almost all, if not all, are, and 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.199 so they include, for example, temperatures to be taken upon 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.920 entering the test site. They include a little bit more 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.560 space in between the test takers. Then is usually the 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:16.280 case UM. And then regarding masks, most of the states 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.160 are acquiring that each of the test takers wear masks, 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.160 but not all UM. I talked to, for example, a 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:28.480 spokeswoman from the West Virginia Courts who noted that they 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:33.439 are urging their test takers to put on masks. There 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:35.720 are requiring them to at least bring them in. They're 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.200 going to have spares on hand as needed, but they're 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.240 not actually requiring it. Basically, they're giving folks in out 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.319 there saying, if you think that it's going to interfere 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:49.000 with your ability to take the exam as successfully as possible, 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:54.520 then it's okay not to wear it. So yeah, well, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.000 so what are the people who are taking these exams 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.480 are planning to these exams? Tell in you, I know 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.520 you've talked to a lot of them. Give us a thinking. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:06.800 So a lot of the folks that I've talked to 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.319 are greatly concerned. I mean, I saw I've been on 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:13.520 the phone with folks UM who have who are immuno 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:18.120 compromised for example, because for example, of their cancer survivors 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.880 or one recently gave birth UM, and or others who 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:27.679 live in multigenerational households or who have elderly parents come 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.520 by regularly to help to help take care of these kids. 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.880 In each of these kinds of cases, they're concerned about 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.160 contracting the disease and then in another in other instances, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.760 possibly then spreading it to family members. I mean, this 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.560 is it's a it's a brutal situation to be put 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.160 through when you look at it from their point of view. 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:52.160 It's on top of these other concerns. First off, these 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.800 exams are aren't necessarily easy in some states to pass. 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.920 Rangers can be less than fifty although like thinking most 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.000 eight it's a bit higher, but don't quote me on that. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:08.640 But nevertheless, they're depending we're on the radio, Sam, you're quoted, Yes, exactly. 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.640 They can be quite tough. Number one. Number two is 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.640 they have financial considerations. Uh. And COVID nineteen is also 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.360 impacting the legal industries, you know, Greg sort of written 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.520 large and making it in some cases, it's tougher for 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.080 these folks, young folks to find and secure legal jobs. 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.720 And at the same time as all of this is, 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.760 many of these folks don't come from wealthy backgrounds, and 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.560 so they're coming in with a lot of indebtedness. While 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:39.040 school loans that they're anxious to payoff. So when they're 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.920 extra delays on top of the normal delays to get 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.560 licensed as a lawyer, it adds tremendous amounts of pressure 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.120 for these folks. Um, so yeah, they're they're going to 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:53.520 rough ones, you know. Yeah, So are there any alternatives? 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.360 Have states come up with any alternatives? And how are 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:01.000 those being received? Yeah? So, um it's money you mentioned, right, 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.439 So uh, state by state it really in a broad sense. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.160 I've had a couple of folks saving me out. It 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.960 really is. It's a chaotic national scene when you look 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.719 at it. The way that this is the way that 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.880 lawyers are licensed in this country, it is state by state. 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.360 But when you look at it nationally, many states have 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:25.439 taken other alternatives, trying to take into account the health considerations, 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.280 these public health considerations, and so some states several inns 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:33.880 act more than twenty are offering online exams. But that's 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.080 not necessarily a panacea in as much as literally just 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.440 within the last week, two of these states. Um, I 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.400 believe it's that at Indiana had had to delay their 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.320 online exam, which they were set to run tomorrow because 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.840 of technical software glitches from one of the vendors that 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.960 they're using for the tests. So I've had some of 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.360 these folks who are in states getting prepared for the 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.640 exa online tests tell me that they're not even sure 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.680 that ultimately these tests are going to go off as planned. 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:07.800 Now there are a whole bunch of the states that 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.960 are scheduled for their online exam that's being set by 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.719 a national group in early October. But I think a 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.120 lot of folks are concerned and noting that that might 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.960 not even happen. So that's one old genders. There are 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.160 yet other alternatives that have to go to the fundamental 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.280 way in which lawyers are licensed, which typically has been 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.760 through the bar exam. But these other models, the licensing models. 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:36.040 One is called diploma privilege, the other provisional licensing, which 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.600 is kind of like the compromise solution, would mean that 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.600 these would be lawyers can either delay taking the bar 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.880 or they can skip it entirely. In the case of 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.600 diploma privilege, what that means is the states are basically 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:54.160 conceding that law school is sufficient legal education that they 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.560 don't need to take in best bar for them to 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.719 be licensed as a lawyer. It takes not just the 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:01.760 part sure of the students, but it takes also the 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:06.280 pressure off of rego employers. Uh. We're talking to government agencies, 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.199 private law firms and everything in between that are eager 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.960 to get these young folks on board. Um and uh 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.199 some of them are actually happy with that solution as well. 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:22.080 There are now four states that have instituted diploma privilege Oregon, 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.720 Washington State, Utah, and Louisiana just as a result of 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.360 this COVID nineteen scare. There was only one state in 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.200 the country that's added for more than a century at Wisconsin, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.640 and it's it's it's a smaller state, but it's run 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.080 fairly well for the graduates of those two law schools 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:43.160 in that state, according the most accounts, Sam, where you're 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.120 going to have to leave it there, Uh, interesting story 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.960 and interesting to watch it going forward. How states continue 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.560 to to adapt trying to go forward with their bar 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.520 exams in this time of coronavirus. Thanks to Sam Skolnick, 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.280 who has been covering this issue for Bloomberg Into Street 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.840 Group coming up on Bloomberg Law, environmentalists asked the Supreme 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.080 Court to stop progress on President Trump's border wall. Could 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.960 be a pivotal moment on a divisive issue. I'm Greg's store. 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:18.000 This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.960 from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Greg's story in for June Grasso. 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.280 A pivotal moment is coming in President Donald Trump's drive 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.920 to build a wall along the Mexican border. Opponents are 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.600 asking the Supreme Court to revisit a year old order 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.640 that let the administration start using Pentagon funds to construct fencing. 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.000 With me to talk about that is Bloomberg industry groups, 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:43.240 Ellen Gilmour, Ellen, thanks for joining us on the show. Um. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.920 These groups include the cr Club, They're represented by the 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.000 the A C l U. What exactly are they asking 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:55.080 the Supreme Court for the court to lift a previous 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.320 order that was issue about a year ago that allowed 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:02.360 border wall construction forward while there was some litigation going 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.720 on in the lower courts that was getting at whether 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.120 the funding the President was using for the border wall 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:13.200 was legal. And put put this in context for me, 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.920 how much of the Trump's wall has has already been built? 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.480 Roughly if we don't have exact numbers, using this this authority, 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.800 using this other money, and and how much more is 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.200 he hoping to build? Before election day or the end 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:34.760 of the year. Yeah. So since President Trump took office, Uh, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.960 the administration has built more than two hundred miles of wall, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:44.200 but most of that was just replacing fencing that was 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.680 already there. UM. And as far as how much they 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.000 want to get done, it's kind of a moving target. 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.400 But the President has said this year that he's hoping 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.880 to get five hundred miles done by the end of UM. 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.080 So that's obviously quite a bit more than the two 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.920 hundred that's done so far. UM. And what's the what's 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.119 the argument against the wall being made by these groups? 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.080 Not so much at the at the Supreme Court yet, 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.320 but what's what's the argument on the ground for why 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:15.200 why a wall would be problematic? So the environmental groups 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.720 who are involved in this case to see our club 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.200 and a group of other communities that are along the border, 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:25.399 and they are concerned about the environmental impacts um, the 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.480 direct impacts UM that construction would have on the surrounding environment. 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.520 But the legal question is really whether it was appropriate 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.880 for the President to use this kind of emergency funding 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:42.159 mechanism for the border wall after Congress declined to to 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.520 provide the full amount of funding the President asked for. 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.879 I mean, listeners will remember the big government shutdown about 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.040 a year and a half ago, and that was all 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.080 about this issue of whether Congress would make this money available. 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.000 Congress didn't make all the money available. The President chose 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.320 this emergency route. Question is was that legal was a 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.280 constitutional So, as you said, this is really a follow 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.640 up to UH in order the court issued a year ago. 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.520 What did the court say then, and what, if anything, 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.280 does that tell us about what the court might do 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.600 with this request to lift this day order. So a 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.640 year ago, the Supreme Court UH issued a short order 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.560 that essentially just allowed border wall construction to move forward, 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.920 even though lower courts were going to block construction from 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.960 moving forward while the litigation and the lower courts was 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.240 moving forward, they were going to block it. The Supreme 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.800 Court said no. But, as is often the case in 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.639 these short orders from the Supreme Court, there wasn't a 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.639 lot there. You know, there wasn't a lot of of 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.040 analysis there for for anybody to to glean anything from. 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.199 So we don't know, you know, in depth what the 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.239 court's reasonings were. But it is hard for I mean, 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:57.280 it's rare for the Supreme Court to grant that kind 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.679 of a stay. So it certainly suggests that the Supreme 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.720 Court was potentially skeptical of what the lower courts had 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:08.119 had decided in deciding to halt construction. UH. Now the 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:09.919 CR Club in the A c l U are asking 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.800 them to reconsider now that a year has gone by 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:18.639 and construction is rolling forward. So this is not the 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.560 only border wall litigation out there. UH. Can you put 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.480 this in context in terms of the other legal fights? 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.359 What else should we be looking for when it comes 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:32.040 to litigation over the border fencing? So the CR Club 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:33.880 and a c l U case that we're talking about 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.760 that has to do with funding, UH, there are other 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.760 cases that also have to do with funding, brought by state, 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:44.240 brought by other groups, members of Congress. UM. But there's 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.240 other litigation that goes beyond that that's looking at things 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:52.159 like UH, the administration has used waivers to waive certain 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.840 environmental laws and other statutes for border wall construction. That's 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:01.360 being litigated so far been successful. UM. And there's other 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:05.160 litigation that deals with specific border wall sections. There's one 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:09.040 that crosses a butterfly refuge in Texas, things like that. 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.600 There's just all kinds of stuff from landowners, from environmentalists, 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.760 from states, etcetera. This kind of an unusual request, isn't 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.560 it that they're asking the court to lift an earlier order? 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.720 It is, I mean the Supreme Court. When the Supreme 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:27.119 Court speaks, that's usually that's usually the final word on something. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.479 But because so much time has passed since that order, 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.800 and because that is still in effect and construction can 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.359 keep on going while the legal questions are kind of 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.760 still out there, the cra club says it deserves second look, 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:42.320 a lot for you to follow. That's all the time 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.879 we have. I want to thank Bloomberg Industry Groups Ellen 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:49.200 Gilmore for talking to us about the Supreme Court request 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.040 by environmental groups to stop construction on Donald Trump's border wall. 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.840 Coming up on Bloomberg Law is Nevada favoring casinos over 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.720 churches and trying to reopen the state during the coronavirus 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:09.800 app arache. I'm Greg Store, this is Bloomberg. This is 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:15.080 Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Gregg's 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.280 story in for June Grasso. Late Friday, the Supreme Court 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.840 said it wouldn't ease Nevada's coronavirus capacity restrictions for worship services, 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.600 rejecting a discrimination claim by a church near Reno. The 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.040 vote was five to four, with Chief Justice John Roberts 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.160 joining the liberals in the majority. With us to talk 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:37.240 about this development to religious liberties experts Stanford law professor 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.480 Michael McConnell and the University of Miami law professor Caroline 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:44.639 Mala Corbin. Thanks to both of you for joining us. UM, 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.240 But Mike, let me start with you. UM. Can you 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.560 just lay out the basics for us? What was the 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.359 church arguing here and what was it seeking from the 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:56.119 Supreme Court. I think it's important to stress that what 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:01.720 they were asking for was a temporary injunction pen appeal, uh, 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.800 and there's a very high standard for those, So I 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.960 don't think we should interpret the Supreme Court's decision as 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.520 the final word on the merits of their argument, And 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:16.080 the merits the argument are really very powerful. The church 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:22.640 argues that it under the Nevada Order, the activities like 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:29.640 the for profit activities like the casinos and gym's and 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.480 bowling alleys and a number of other activities of that 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:39.240 sort are allowed to meet with more than fifty fifty persons. 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:44.000 President back Casinos it can be thousands and under circumstances 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:48.240 where people are together for extended periods of time without 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.480 the kind of social distancing that the church is provided, 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:57.000 and that uh it is unconstitutional. The church argues UH 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.359 to single out of religious activity and say, well, churches 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:08.040 can't meet when organizations secular activities of of other natures 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:12.640 such as these for profit businesses, are able to meet 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.400 with no explanation, or at least the government is required 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:20.479 to provide an explanation for why it is discriminating against 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:26.359 the religious activity, and Nevada provided none. Caroline, we didn't 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:30.760 actually get a majority opinion here. The court rejected the 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:35.240 application without explanation. We did have a case Lass Beck 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.600 in uh May where the court had a similar issue. 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.200 M Can you try to fill in the blanks. What 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:45.440 is your understanding of what the courts likely or probable 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:51.120 rationale was here in in rejecting the application from the church. Um. 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:55.080