1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law. Some complicated international law issues here. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: What kind of docket is Chief Justice Roberts facing interviews 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: with prominent attorneys and Bloomberg Legal experts. Joining me is 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg New Supreme Court reporter Greg's Store, Neil Devons, a 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: professor at William and Mary Law School, and analysis of 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: important legal issues, cases and headlines. President Trump lost resoundingly 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: in the circuit courts and unusually large number of immigration cases. 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law. I'm Greg's Store in for June Grosso. Coming 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: up on the show. The Supreme Court rejects on the 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: Nevada church that said the state's coronavirus capacity restrictions discriminate 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: against religion. And we'll dive into the growing controversy over 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: the way states are conducting bird zams during the pandemic. 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: But first, earlier this month, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Ginsburg revealed that she was again being treated for cancer. 16 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: That was about a week and a half after the 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Court confirmed a Washington Post report that Chief Justice John R. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: Birds had been hospitalized after falling and hitting his forehead 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: with me to talk about the Supreme Court's disclosure practices 20 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to health issues. Is Duke Law School 21 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: professor Marin Levy Maran, thanks very much for joining us. UM, 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: let's start with Justice Ginsburg. She's disclosed a lot of 23 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: health information over the years, but twice in the last 24 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: year a loan, she has revealed cancer only after the 25 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: treatment was proved to be working. Is what she is 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: revealing to the public enough in your mind? That's a 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: great question, Greg, and I just want to say, thanks 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: so much for having me on the show. Um. So, 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: I think the Justice has been very clear and disclosing 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: her health issues, but as you said, the issue seems 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: to be alone with timing. So we just learned um 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: a week and a half ago that she found out 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: in February that the cancer had returned. Um. She underwent 34 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: one treatment, meeto therapy that was not successful, and we 35 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: only now know about it because she's undergone a second 36 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: round of treatment, chemotherapy that seems to be doing much better. 37 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: And I would say, um, it would have been helpful 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: to know about this sooner. And what about John Roberts, So, uh, 39 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: it was revealed this month he had fallen He hit 40 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: his forehead, got stitches, the most hospitalized overnight. The Supreme 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: Court doesn't reveal that until the Washington Post gets a 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: tip and asked about it. Is that something that you 43 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: would have liked to have seen John Roberts disclose on 44 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: his own without having to be prompted. Absolutely. So there, 45 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: I think we have two separate issues to one, as 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: you mentioned, is the timing, so we don't learn about 47 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: the incidents that happened in June until over two weeks 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: after it happened. But then second is the fact that 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: the Court did not come out and disclose the information. 50 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: It was only after the Post that he said, received 51 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: the tips, that they followed up with the Court, and 52 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: then we get the confirmation. This is the kind of 53 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: thing I think the Court really needs to be coming 54 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: out in front with. So so why is that? Why 55 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: do we need to know this sort of information about 56 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices? Yeah? Absolutely, I think it's a hard 57 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: question to be honest, really parsing out why the public 58 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 1: has an interest to know. I would say a couple 59 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: of things on this. The first is I think just 60 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: as a general matter, the public is interested in knowing 61 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: that the justices are in good health um to a 62 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: given how important they are in our democracy really um, 63 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: And the Court itself seems to acknowledge this. So if 64 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: you go back to the beginning of the pandemics, the 65 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: reporters actually asked the Court to start providing updates on 66 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: the justices health just to make sure they were doing okay, um, 67 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: they weren't being impacted by the coronavirus. And the Court 68 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: said yes, And as far as we know, we've been 69 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: receiving those updates. UM. So kind of general acknowledgment that 70 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: the public is interested in the health of the justices. 71 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: I think separately from that, we have a real interest 72 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: going into an election like this, Um. The Court is 73 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: on the mind of at least some voters. And if 74 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: we know that some of the ss are not in 75 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: good health, UM, that could impact the way people vote 76 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: in the upcoming election. Does it make a difference that 77 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about physical ailments here as opposed to mental ailments? Uh, 78 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, to go back into history a little bit, 79 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: when Justice William Douglas back in the early seventies was 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: was losing some of his mental capacity. Uh. Arguably, perhaps 81 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: that that raised a different issue. Doesn't matter that we're 82 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: as far as we know, just talking about physical ailments. 83 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: So I don't think so. Um and again for a 84 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: couple of reasons. So the first being, and I hate 85 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,559 Speaker 1: to talk about this, it reminds me something Chief Justice 86 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: Rank with that you know that there is this speculation 87 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: about the health of the justices that can run into 88 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: the kind of foolish if you put a territory um. 89 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: But I do think, you know, it's fair to think about, um, 90 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: will the next administration be appointing any justice to the court. 91 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: And so part of that is we do think about 92 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: their health overall, not just their mental acuity. UM. So 93 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: So that's I think really the most important point. But 94 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: the other is a larger point about transparency. You know, 95 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: I think it's really critical for the legitimacy of the 96 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: Court that the public feel that the justices are being 97 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: honest with them um. And again, that we aren't having 98 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: these issues like we are now, where we're learning about 99 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: things only after the fact, and in some cases at 100 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: the prompting of of the media. How confident are you 101 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: that we know what we need to know? Um. You know, 102 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: we've talked about some health issues, some other justices have 103 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: have revealed things. Justice so do Mayor of course, has 104 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: been very upfront about her lifelong diabetes. Are you concerned 105 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: that there are other things that we don't know about 106 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: perhaps some other justices? So I am. I think you know, 107 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: the real problem is, at the end of the day, 108 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: we we just don't have confidence that we know everything 109 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: at this point, and in some ways, this most recent 110 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: incident with Justice Ginsburg underscores that. Um. You know, I 111 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: think all along we had fought we really knew everything 112 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,119 Speaker 1: about her health records because she had been what seemed 113 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: to be quite forthcoming. And in fact, when Justice Roberts 114 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: had this recent health scare, UM, some folks I thought 115 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: it was problematic that we didn't hear about it sooner 116 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: and pointed to Justice Ginsberg, that's kind of a model 117 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: of somebody disclosing health issues. But now that that we 118 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: didn't even know some of her health history, UM, I 119 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: think raised as a whole host of questions. And it 120 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: really would be better if we had a clear policy 121 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: from the court um that we will know certain things 122 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: to say if Justice has a serious health scare that 123 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: we know within some you know, pretty quick timeframe. I 124 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: want to thank our guests. That's Duke Law School professor 125 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: Marin Levy talking about health issues and disclosures by Supreme 126 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: Court justices. Thanks very much for joining us on Bloomberg Law. 127 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: Coming up on the show, the coronavirus outbreak is giving 128 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: new life of the push for alternatives to the in 129 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 1: person bar exam. I'm Greg Store, this is Bloomberg. This 130 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. I'm 131 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: Greg's story and for June Grasso. Summer is the traditional 132 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: time for recent law school graduates to gather in courthouses 133 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: and convention centers around the country to take the bar exam. 134 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: But this is the summer of COVID nineteen, which makes 135 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: such large gatherings risky, and many states are scrambling to 136 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: revamp their test protocols with me as Sam Skolnick, who 137 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: has been covering these developments for Bloomberg Industry Group and 138 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week. Sam, thanks for joining us. UM give 139 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: us a big picture how many states are going ahead 140 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: with in person bar exams over the next few weeks. 141 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: As of actually Twomorrow and Wednesday, states are scheduled. Almost 142 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: half of the states are scheduled for in person exams. 143 00:07:55,680 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: UM and then in September and or September October. There 144 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: are another thirteen, including a couple of the same states 145 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: which are offering men twice, but most of these are 146 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: separate states. UM. So in the end we're talking about 147 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: more than half of the states are still going ahead 148 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: with in personal exams UM over the next couple of months. 149 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: And of course this is happening in many states that 150 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: are now seeing COVID nineteen spikes for the first time, 151 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: or they're seeing a resurgence of the disease UH in 152 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: these states, and it's causing great and growing concern among 153 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: the test takers who are being asked to sit in 154 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: these in what are many cases huge examples UM right 155 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: next to scores, if not hundreds of other test takers UM. 156 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: Even if they're so, they're what the states are doing 157 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: is UH there. They are mandating social distancing requirements in 158 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: many cases, if not most, if not all, of these states. 159 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: I have in fact each of these states, but I 160 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: would imagine that almost all, if not all, are, and 161 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: so they include, for example, temperatures to be taken upon 162 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: entering the test site. They include a little bit more 163 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: space in between the test takers. Then is usually the 164 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: case UM. And then regarding masks, most of the states 165 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: are acquiring that each of the test takers wear masks, 166 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: but not all UM. I talked to, for example, a 167 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: spokeswoman from the West Virginia Courts who noted that they 168 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: are urging their test takers to put on masks. There 169 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: are requiring them to at least bring them in. They're 170 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: going to have spares on hand as needed, but they're 171 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: not actually requiring it. Basically, they're giving folks in out 172 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: there saying, if you think that it's going to interfere 173 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: with your ability to take the exam as successfully as possible, 174 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: then it's okay not to wear it. So yeah, well, 175 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: so what are the people who are taking these exams 176 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: are planning to these exams? Tell in you, I know 177 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: you've talked to a lot of them. Give us a thinking. 178 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: So a lot of the folks that I've talked to 179 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: are greatly concerned. I mean, I saw I've been on 180 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: the phone with folks UM who have who are immuno 181 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: compromised for example, because for example, of their cancer survivors 182 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: or one recently gave birth UM, and or others who 183 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: live in multigenerational households or who have elderly parents come 184 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: by regularly to help to help take care of these kids. 185 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: In each of these kinds of cases, they're concerned about 186 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: contracting the disease and then in another in other instances, 187 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: possibly then spreading it to family members. I mean, this 188 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: is it's a it's a brutal situation to be put 189 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: through when you look at it from their point of view. 190 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: It's on top of these other concerns. First off, these 191 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: exams are aren't necessarily easy in some states to pass. 192 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: Rangers can be less than fifty although like thinking most 193 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: eight it's a bit higher, but don't quote me on that. 194 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, they're depending we're on the radio, Sam, you're quoted, Yes, exactly. 195 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: They can be quite tough. Number one. Number two is 196 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: they have financial considerations. Uh. And COVID nineteen is also 197 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: impacting the legal industries, you know, Greg sort of written 198 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: large and making it in some cases, it's tougher for 199 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: these folks, young folks to find and secure legal jobs. 200 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: And at the same time as all of this is, 201 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: many of these folks don't come from wealthy backgrounds, and 202 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: so they're coming in with a lot of indebtedness. While 203 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: school loans that they're anxious to payoff. So when they're 204 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: extra delays on top of the normal delays to get 205 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: licensed as a lawyer, it adds tremendous amounts of pressure 206 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: for these folks. Um, so yeah, they're they're going to 207 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: rough ones, you know. Yeah, So are there any alternatives? 208 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: Have states come up with any alternatives? And how are 209 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: those being received? Yeah? So, um it's money you mentioned, right, 210 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: So uh, state by state it really in a broad sense. 211 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: I've had a couple of folks saving me out. It 212 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: really is. It's a chaotic national scene when you look 213 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: at it. The way that this is the way that 214 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: lawyers are licensed in this country, it is state by state. 215 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: But when you look at it nationally, many states have 216 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: taken other alternatives, trying to take into account the health considerations, 217 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: these public health considerations, and so some states several inns 218 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: act more than twenty are offering online exams. But that's 219 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily a panacea in as much as literally just 220 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: within the last week, two of these states. Um, I 221 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: believe it's that at Indiana had had to delay their 222 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: online exam, which they were set to run tomorrow because 223 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: of technical software glitches from one of the vendors that 224 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: they're using for the tests. So I've had some of 225 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: these folks who are in states getting prepared for the 226 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: exa online tests tell me that they're not even sure 227 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: that ultimately these tests are going to go off as planned. 228 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: Now there are a whole bunch of the states that 229 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: are scheduled for their online exam that's being set by 230 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: a national group in early October. But I think a 231 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: lot of folks are concerned and noting that that might 232 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: not even happen. So that's one old genders. There are 233 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: yet other alternatives that have to go to the fundamental 234 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: way in which lawyers are licensed, which typically has been 235 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: through the bar exam. But these other models, the licensing models. 236 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: One is called diploma privilege, the other provisional licensing, which 237 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: is kind of like the compromise solution, would mean that 238 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: these would be lawyers can either delay taking the bar 239 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: or they can skip it entirely. In the case of 240 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: diploma privilege, what that means is the states are basically 241 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: conceding that law school is sufficient legal education that they 242 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: don't need to take in best bar for them to 243 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 1: be licensed as a lawyer. It takes not just the 244 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: part sure of the students, but it takes also the 245 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: pressure off of rego employers. Uh. We're talking to government agencies, 246 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: private law firms and everything in between that are eager 247 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: to get these young folks on board. Um and uh 248 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: some of them are actually happy with that solution as well. 249 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: There are now four states that have instituted diploma privilege Oregon, 250 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: Washington State, Utah, and Louisiana just as a result of 251 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: this COVID nineteen scare. There was only one state in 252 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: the country that's added for more than a century at Wisconsin, 253 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's a smaller state, but it's run 254 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: fairly well for the graduates of those two law schools 255 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: in that state, according the most accounts, Sam, where you're 256 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: going to have to leave it there, Uh, interesting story 257 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: and interesting to watch it going forward. How states continue 258 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: to to adapt trying to go forward with their bar 259 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: exams in this time of coronavirus. Thanks to Sam Skolnick, 260 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: who has been covering this issue for Bloomberg Into Street 261 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: Group coming up on Bloomberg Law, environmentalists asked the Supreme 262 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: Court to stop progress on President Trump's border wall. Could 263 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: be a pivotal moment on a divisive issue. I'm Greg's store. 264 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso 265 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Greg's story in for June Grasso. 266 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: A pivotal moment is coming in President Donald Trump's drive 267 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: to build a wall along the Mexican border. Opponents are 268 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: asking the Supreme Court to revisit a year old order 269 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: that let the administration start using Pentagon funds to construct fencing. 270 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: With me to talk about that is Bloomberg industry groups, 271 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: Ellen Gilmour, Ellen, thanks for joining us on the show. Um. 272 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: These groups include the cr Club, They're represented by the 273 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: the A C l U. What exactly are they asking 274 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court for the court to lift a previous 275 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: order that was issue about a year ago that allowed 276 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: border wall construction forward while there was some litigation going 277 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: on in the lower courts that was getting at whether 278 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: the funding the President was using for the border wall 279 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: was legal. And put put this in context for me, 280 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: how much of the Trump's wall has has already been built? 281 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: Roughly if we don't have exact numbers, using this this authority, 282 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: using this other money, and and how much more is 283 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: he hoping to build? Before election day or the end 284 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: of the year. Yeah. So since President Trump took office, Uh, 285 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: the administration has built more than two hundred miles of wall, 286 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: but most of that was just replacing fencing that was 287 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: already there. UM. And as far as how much they 288 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: want to get done, it's kind of a moving target. 289 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: But the President has said this year that he's hoping 290 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: to get five hundred miles done by the end of UM. 291 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: So that's obviously quite a bit more than the two 292 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: hundred that's done so far. UM. And what's the what's 293 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: the argument against the wall being made by these groups? 294 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: Not so much at the at the Supreme Court yet, 295 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: but what's what's the argument on the ground for why 296 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: why a wall would be problematic? So the environmental groups 297 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: who are involved in this case to see our club 298 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: and a group of other communities that are along the border, 299 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: and they are concerned about the environmental impacts um, the 300 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: direct impacts UM that construction would have on the surrounding environment. 301 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: But the legal question is really whether it was appropriate 302 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: for the President to use this kind of emergency funding 303 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: mechanism for the border wall after Congress declined to to 304 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: provide the full amount of funding the President asked for. 305 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: I mean, listeners will remember the big government shutdown about 306 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: a year and a half ago, and that was all 307 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: about this issue of whether Congress would make this money available. 308 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: Congress didn't make all the money available. The President chose 309 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: this emergency route. Question is was that legal was a 310 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: constitutional So, as you said, this is really a follow 311 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: up to UH in order the court issued a year ago. 312 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: What did the court say then, and what, if anything, 313 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: does that tell us about what the court might do 314 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: with this request to lift this day order. So a 315 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: year ago, the Supreme Court UH issued a short order 316 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: that essentially just allowed border wall construction to move forward, 317 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: even though lower courts were going to block construction from 318 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: moving forward while the litigation and the lower courts was 319 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: moving forward, they were going to block it. The Supreme 320 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: Court said no. But, as is often the case in 321 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: these short orders from the Supreme Court, there wasn't a 322 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: lot there. You know, there wasn't a lot of of 323 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: analysis there for for anybody to to glean anything from. 324 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: So we don't know, you know, in depth what the 325 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,239 Speaker 1: court's reasonings were. But it is hard for I mean, 326 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: it's rare for the Supreme Court to grant that kind 327 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: of a stay. So it certainly suggests that the Supreme 328 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: Court was potentially skeptical of what the lower courts had 329 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: had decided in deciding to halt construction. UH. Now the 330 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: CR Club in the A c l U are asking 331 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: them to reconsider now that a year has gone by 332 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: and construction is rolling forward. So this is not the 333 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: only border wall litigation out there. UH. Can you put 334 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: this in context in terms of the other legal fights? 335 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: What else should we be looking for when it comes 336 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: to litigation over the border fencing? So the CR Club 337 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: and a c l U case that we're talking about 338 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: that has to do with funding, UH, there are other 339 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: cases that also have to do with funding, brought by state, 340 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: brought by other groups, members of Congress. UM. But there's 341 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: other litigation that goes beyond that that's looking at things 342 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: like UH, the administration has used waivers to waive certain 343 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: environmental laws and other statutes for border wall construction. That's 344 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: being litigated so far been successful. UM. And there's other 345 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: litigation that deals with specific border wall sections. There's one 346 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: that crosses a butterfly refuge in Texas, things like that. 347 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: There's just all kinds of stuff from landowners, from environmentalists, 348 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: from states, etcetera. This kind of an unusual request, isn't 349 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: it that they're asking the court to lift an earlier order? 350 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: It is, I mean the Supreme Court. When the Supreme 351 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: Court speaks, that's usually that's usually the final word on something. 352 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,479 Speaker 1: But because so much time has passed since that order, 353 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: and because that is still in effect and construction can 354 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: keep on going while the legal questions are kind of 355 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: still out there, the cra club says it deserves second look, 356 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: a lot for you to follow. That's all the time 357 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: we have. I want to thank Bloomberg Industry Groups Ellen 358 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: Gilmore for talking to us about the Supreme Court request 359 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: by environmental groups to stop construction on Donald Trump's border wall. 360 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: Coming up on Bloomberg Law is Nevada favoring casinos over 361 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: churches and trying to reopen the state during the coronavirus 362 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: app arache. I'm Greg Store, this is Bloomberg. This is 363 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Gregg's 364 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: story in for June Grasso. Late Friday, the Supreme Court 365 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: said it wouldn't ease Nevada's coronavirus capacity restrictions for worship services, 366 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: rejecting a discrimination claim by a church near Reno. The 367 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: vote was five to four, with Chief Justice John Roberts 368 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: joining the liberals in the majority. With us to talk 369 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: about this development to religious liberties experts Stanford law professor 370 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: Michael McConnell and the University of Miami law professor Caroline 371 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: Mala Corbin. Thanks to both of you for joining us. UM, 372 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: But Mike, let me start with you. UM. Can you 373 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: just lay out the basics for us? What was the 374 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: church arguing here and what was it seeking from the 375 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. I think it's important to stress that what 376 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: they were asking for was a temporary injunction pen appeal, uh, 377 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: and there's a very high standard for those, So I 378 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: don't think we should interpret the Supreme Court's decision as 379 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: the final word on the merits of their argument, And 380 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: the merits the argument are really very powerful. The church 381 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: argues that it under the Nevada Order, the activities like 382 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: the for profit activities like the casinos and gym's and 383 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: bowling alleys and a number of other activities of that 384 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: sort are allowed to meet with more than fifty fifty persons. 385 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: President back Casinos it can be thousands and under circumstances 386 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: where people are together for extended periods of time without 387 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: the kind of social distancing that the church is provided, 388 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: and that uh it is unconstitutional. The church argues UH 389 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: to single out of religious activity and say, well, churches 390 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: can't meet when organizations secular activities of of other natures 391 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: such as these for profit businesses, are able to meet 392 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: with no explanation, or at least the government is required 393 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,479 Speaker 1: to provide an explanation for why it is discriminating against 394 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: the religious activity, and Nevada provided none. Caroline, we didn't 395 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: actually get a majority opinion here. The court rejected the 396 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: application without explanation. We did have a case Lass Beck 397 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: in uh May where the court had a similar issue. 398 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: M Can you try to fill in the blanks. What 399 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: is your understanding of what the courts likely or probable 400 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: rationale was here in in rejecting the application from the church. Um. 401 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: There could be two ways of thinking about this. One 402 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: of them is as she Justice Roberts did in the 403 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: earlier decision. The majority is taking a very deferential approach 404 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: to emergency orders during a pandemic, and in that case, 405 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: the usually more rigorous standards that they would apply are 406 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: not applied because there is a public health emergency. Um. Ultimately, 407 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: they don't think that religion is being singled out in 408 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: the way that amounts to odious discrimination against worship services. Now, Mike, Um, 409 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: we've got three dissenting opinions to choose from in this gaze, 410 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: from the Justice as Alito, Gorsage, and Kavanaugh saying the 411 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: courts should have intervened. Um. You described earlier the church 412 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: is having a pretty powerful argument. Um. Spell that out 413 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: a little bit. Uh, Why on the merits of it 414 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: does does the church have a pretty good claim in 415 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: your case? In your mind? Well, first of all, I 416 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: want to say that I think the bought A case 417 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: is quite different from the earlier California case where which 418 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: was also five to four, and where Chief Justice Roberts 419 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: wrote an opinion explaining why they rejected the argument of 420 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: the churches. There. Just read one let me read one 421 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: short sentence from that California case where the Chief Justice 422 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: Roberts says that the California order treats more leniently only 423 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: dissimilar activities in which people neither congregate in large groups 424 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: nor remain in close proximity. For extended periods. So that 425 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: may have been true in California, but it certainly is 426 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: not true in the Nevada case, where if you look 427 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: at pictures of the of the casinos that are open now, 428 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: you have huge numbers of people and very close proximity. 429 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: They stay there for a very long time. Um, it's 430 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: much more dangerous from at least no public health expert, 431 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: but at least in terms of being congregating in close proximity, 432 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: it looks much more dangerous. And add in the alcohol 433 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: that served at at casinos, which means people, even if 434 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: they are trying to to wear masks, they're going to 435 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: be lifting them up in order to drink their beverages. 436 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 1: And we all know that alcohol, you know, causes certain 437 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: decline in good judgment. Whereas this church is going to 438 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: has basically eighty people, uh they want, the capacity is 439 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: over twice that large, so they are spaced with families 440 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: more than six persons apart, and with a number of 441 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: protocols that, according to the expert in the case, are 442 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: more stringent than those required by the by the c 443 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,239 Speaker 1: d C. So it's very hard to understand, I mean, 444 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: how Nevada can justify saying that the churches cannot meet 445 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: with more than fifty people, whereas these other activities like 446 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: casinos can now there in order to decide the case, though, 447 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: the court should not be making up its own public 448 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: health policy. But what the constitution requires is that the 449 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: government justify what it's doing, and Nevada has offered no 450 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: justification for this. I think the same. The Supreme Court 451 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: has been quite consistent, you know, left and right on 452 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: demanding that the government justify itself in in recent cases 453 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: like the Census case or like the the Adappa case. Recently, 454 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,239 Speaker 1: the Court has struck down government action that may very 455 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: well be lawful on the ground that the government failed 456 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: to offer any serious justification sational Here, Nevada has offered 457 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: no justification for treating churches differently than it does these 458 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: for profit businesses, and I think that that would be 459 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: a sufficient basis for holding their action unconstitutional, at least 460 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: if they If we're talking about on the merits now, 461 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: maybe preliminary injunctions are a different thing. Let me circle 462 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: back to that. If if we have a mant Caroline, 463 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: do you disagree with any of that? And is Mike 464 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: asking the right questions here? Is that it should we 465 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: be comparing. I think that I think that question is 466 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: not so different, because I think what is really crucial 467 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: is the state treating worship services the same as comparable 468 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: secular activities are worse than comparable secular activities. If they're 469 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: treating the same as activities that pose the same kind 470 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: of health risk, then there's really no constitutional problem. And 471 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: I think, um that was at least a case in 472 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: the first religious challenge that related its organizations were not 473 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: treated worse than comparable secular activities. Now, if religious worship 474 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: services alone are singled out for worse treatment, then you 475 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: clearly have a problem here. The case is a little 476 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: tricky because worship services are treated the same as some 477 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: comparable secular activities like going to a museum or the 478 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: movies or a concert. It is also treated worse than 479 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: many other secular activities, such as the ones listed like restaurants, bars, jims, 480 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: and casinos. And I think in that case it's not 481 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 1: quite as clear cut as it is when it's treated 482 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: the same as all comparable activities, or religion alone is 483 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: treated differently than comparable secular activities. Mike, you were about 484 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: to talk about the kind of the procedural status of 485 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: this case is preliminary injunction, and we've got a Supreme 486 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: Court order here that happened on kind of a spaces 487 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: And I guess my question for both of you in 488 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: the in the last few minutes we have left, is 489 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: his is a good way to be deciding these these issues? 490 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: Is there? And should the standards be different when uh, 491 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: it comes to the courts, both the lower courts and 492 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, on such a rush basis, without without 493 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: a full record, without a real chance to dive as 494 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: deeply into these issues as perhaps the court needs to. Michael, 495 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: what do you think? I do think that that that 496 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: it's a real problem for the courts to have these 497 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: things on, as you say, such a rushed basis, especially 498 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: when uh, you know, it's potentially life and death at stake. 499 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: And I think this is the best way to understand 500 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: what Chief Justice Roberts has done, because he has been 501 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: um against the issuance of these rushed preliminary injunctions in 502 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: a number of contexts where he's been somewhat consistent about 503 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: pretty actually pretty dagon consistent, whereas the left and the 504 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: right of the Court have tended to, uh to go 505 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: there sort of ideological ways. He has voted to vacate. Uh, 506 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: these sort of rushed in junctions in cases favored by 507 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: the left and favored by the right. And I think 508 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: that may be what's going on here, Caroline, what's your 509 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: take on that. I don't know. I do want to 510 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: pick up on the one point you mentioned, which is 511 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: this is literally about a life and death situation, and 512 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: I think the Court is really concerned about the granted 513 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: it perhaps should not be influenced decisions, but I don't 514 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: think you can the Supreme Court can ignore the fact 515 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: that we are in the midst of a global pandemic um, 516 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: and that these kinds of activities, both worship services and 517 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: he knows, serve as vectors for the spread of the contagion, 518 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: and that really they should both be shut down. Um, 519 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: they may be worry that they're both going to end 520 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: up being open and and and and and again. That 521 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: may explain why they may be more deferential than they 522 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: really should be in in these cases. We're gonna have 523 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: to leave it there. I want to thank I guess 524 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: Caroline Mala Corbin and Michael McConnell, both religious liberty experts, 525 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: for joining us on Bloomberg Law. And that's it for 526 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: this edition of Bloomberg Law. I'm Greg Storing for June Grass. 527 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg