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Speaker 1: Also media, Hello Hello.

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Speaker 2: That was not a U two reference. I don't. I

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Speaker 2: don't like that band enough to make it make a reference.

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Speaker 2: I don't dislike them enough to really shit talk them either.

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Speaker 2: Too many people have done that, so I'll just say bono. Uh,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Sophie, how do you feel about the

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Speaker 2: title I've got on this on this on this episode

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Speaker 2: for us? Should I read it out to the audience?

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Speaker 2: Should they know?

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Speaker 1: I mean? I could go with or without?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Well? She Sophie has like chat on all of the titles.

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Speaker 2: The original title for this series was Steve Jobs, the

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Speaker 2: Hitler of Computers, Sophie said was not appropriate.

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Speaker 1: It's not that I said it was appropriate. I said

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Speaker 1: it could very much be taken out of context, which

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Speaker 1: could be damaging to not.

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Speaker 3: So, I would like my name not to associated with

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Speaker 3: the word hell yeah, to.

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Speaker 4: Be to be to be safe for you know, just you,

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Speaker 4: but also all the lovely people that we are able

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Speaker 4: to employ.

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Speaker 2: I've made peace that my name will always be tied

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Speaker 2: to Hitler. Sophie. You know, I'm like Germany in that regard,

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Speaker 2: but for a very different reason, mainly podcasts. For me Germany,

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Speaker 2: it was some other things but I think my other

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Speaker 2: title is problematic free, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was just kind.

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Speaker 2: Of Steve Jobs for Electric Google lore. That's not bad.

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Speaker 1: That was not the title I vetoed. I vevoed Sieve

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Speaker 1: Job sucks or something dumb.

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Speaker 3: That was, well, that's the human experience with that one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like you can do better than that.

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Speaker 5: It was one thirty pm. I've just gotten up, you know,

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Speaker 5: I haven't had coffee yet the k noon. So we're

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Speaker 5: going to talk for a little bit before we get

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Speaker 5: into the last great act of Steve Jobs, the stuff

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Speaker 5: that everyone actually knows him from, right, Like, obviously people

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Speaker 5: in the eighties and nineties knew him as the Apple guy.

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Speaker 5: But when people talk about him now, very few of

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Speaker 5: them are thinking of like the Apple too, or even

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Speaker 5: if like the original Macintosh. They think about the iPod,

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Speaker 5: the iPhone, the iPad, the app store, like everything Apple

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Speaker 5: is today. Right, So first I want to I want

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Speaker 5: to get into before we talk about how he got

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Speaker 5: to all that shit. I want to talk about part

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Speaker 5: of why Apple fell to pieces after he left. We've

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Speaker 5: talked a lot about his mistakes, his misjudgments, and it's

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Speaker 5: important to note he was not very good at guiding Apple,

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Speaker 5: no one else was either, So in early nineteen ninety one,

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Speaker 5: not long after Steve left, the idea of a handheld

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Speaker 5: personal digital assistant was pitched to CEO John Scully on

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Speaker 5: an airplane. He's on some private flight and some guy's like, hey,

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Speaker 5: you see these like palm pilot things people are starting

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Speaker 5: to carry. What if we've made an Apple one?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: I don't even think palm pilots are this Sorry it's

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Speaker 2: ninety one. Yeah. So he's like, you know these things

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Speaker 2: that are kind of evolutions of the beeper that people

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Speaker 2: have started to carry, that can keep a calendar, maybe

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Speaker 2: you can take some notes on it, but they're pretty primitive.

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Speaker 2: Someone tells them like, hey, this could be you know

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Speaker 2: what saves Apple jobs. Had been out of the company

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Speaker 2: for like five years at that point, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's one of those things. If this had been introduced

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Speaker 2: when he'd still been there, I think he would have

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Speaker 2: fought like hell against it because it was a bad

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Speaker 2: idea and it was obviously not where computing was going right.

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Speaker 2: People don't want like a personal digital assistant is It

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Speaker 2: may seem like a smartphone, but the vision is kind

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Speaker 2: of fundamentally limited. These are not connected devices, right, These

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Speaker 2: are basically fancy calendars that people carry with them, And

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Speaker 2: so it's really different from the kind of idea. It

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Speaker 2: seem as like an executive assistant effectively, more than it

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Speaker 2: is like something that one hundred million people are going

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Speaker 2: to keep in their pockets at all times. Because it

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Speaker 2: is kind of a tablet computer, there's a tendency for

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Speaker 2: some people to see it as being ahead of its time.

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Speaker 2: I don't really know how much I agree with that,

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Speaker 2: because it's dogshit. It does not work for fuck right.

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Speaker 2: As envisioned. The Newton would have let people take notes, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you're supposed to be able to write with your handwriting,

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Speaker 2: and it was going to train translated.

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Speaker 3: And all of these devices for like ten years, all

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Speaker 3: of them promised this, and yeah.

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Speaker 2: They could not do it. It was like, by modern standards,

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Speaker 2: dog shit right.

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Speaker 3: A while too. It took him like twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it takes them a bit. They improve the Newtons.

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Speaker 2: Some people will say they made it pretty good, but like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know that it was ever good enough that

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Speaker 2: people would want to use. And when the Newton came out,

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Speaker 2: the fact that the handwriting feature is borked on it

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Speaker 2: is like such a news story that Gary Trudeau of

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Speaker 2: Doonesbury spends a full week making fun of it. He

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Speaker 2: hadn't even like used in Newton, but he'd read bad

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Speaker 2: reviews and he was just like the guy, yeah, Dunesbury

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Speaker 2: Manah yeah, if you want to fight the Doonesbury guy

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety one, you'd best come correct. That was

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Speaker 2: his that was his apex Jesus. So part of the

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Speaker 2: failure came down to the fact that Scully was obsessed

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Speaker 2: with the idea that this device should fit easily in

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Speaker 2: his pocket, and they were like behind the scen people

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Speaker 2: are joking about, like should we just buy himp shirts

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Speaker 2: with bigger pockets? Like he's doing the same thing. He

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Speaker 2: took too much from jobs where he's like, I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to lay down the aesthetics but not really care

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Speaker 2: about how possible or impossible that is. But that's not

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Speaker 2: really why this fails. It's just that PDAs are not

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Speaker 2: something people wanted, right. They wanted a connected device, and

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Speaker 2: that's key to what a smartphone was. But like a

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Speaker 2: Palm pilot type deal you're playing your music on it.

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Speaker 2: That might have gotten it to sell. They were kind

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Speaker 2: of big. They were just like there were toys for

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Speaker 2: rich businessmen to impress less rich businessmen with. Right, that

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Speaker 2: was the primary use category. So you can understand how

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Speaker 2: a guy like John Scully could get sold on the idea.

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Speaker 2: But it was a very bad way.

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Speaker 3: We don't do real work, yes, yes, was yeah, like

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Speaker 3: these people had assistance as well, So the actual point

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Speaker 3: of this thing was well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was to boys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Jabs himself took joy in insulting the Newton in public

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Speaker 2: and his new rifle. John Scully his old friend, and

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Speaker 2: Apple bought Next in nineteen ninety six, and he returned

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Speaker 2: to the company in nineteen ninety seven. He expressed particular

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Speaker 2: distaste for the stylus. Isaacson writes, God gave us ten styluses.

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Speaker 2: He would say, waving his fingers, let's not invent another.

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Speaker 2: And that is like, this is you know, he's being

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Speaker 2: a dick about it, but he's got a legitimate insight. There.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of debates.

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Speaker 3: The biggest wanka way of saying he.

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Speaker 2: Did he did. He's to to his new the people

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Speaker 2: who work at the company, right, that is kind of

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Speaker 2: you might want to be a little more artful than that.

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Speaker 2: But styluses were bad ideas, right, we can all agree

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Speaker 2: on that he is right. We want like, in order

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Speaker 2: for this to be a universal device, it has to

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Speaker 2: be something that you just fucking touch. So Scully would

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Speaker 2: later argue that the Newton helped save Apple, and this

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Speaker 2: is kind of true, but like not in a way

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Speaker 2: that matters for him. Basically, to build the Newton, Apple

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Speaker 2: had to help fund the design of the ARM processor,

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Speaker 2: and Apple was eventually able to sell their interest in

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Speaker 2: ARM for like a billion dollars, right, so that's kind

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Speaker 2: of what saves Apple, which is like, not really the

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Speaker 2: Newton saving Apple, You got lucky. This is like fucking

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Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed investing in Anthropic and making a bunch

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Speaker 2: of money after losing his shirt on everything else. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: technically everyone might get made a whole, but you didn't

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Speaker 2: know that was gonna happen.

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Speaker 3: Bro, That is kind of funny that everything good that

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Speaker 3: Apple managed to do seemed to be by accident, or

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Speaker 3: at least Steve Jobs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah up to I mean, I mean this one that's

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Speaker 2: a John Scully win. I'll give that one to him.

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Speaker 2: But like this is an example of the being similar

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Speaker 2: to Steve Jobs yeah, yeah, I mean he hates Scully

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Speaker 2: after this point, at least for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he made peace with him at the end there.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, no, But in general, the instincts that

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Speaker 2: Jobs had had up to this point in his life

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Speaker 2: towards simplicity, restricting user control, curating the ecosystem, these are

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Speaker 2: all the impulses that in the twenty first century would

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Speaker 2: lead Apple to staggering success. The iPod, the Mac G three,

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Speaker 2: which I actually think comes out in ninety nine, and

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Speaker 2: the iPhone all received criticism and still do because of

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Speaker 2: how lockdown they are. Right when the when the iMac

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Speaker 2: comes out, you can see inside the guts of this thing,

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Speaker 2: but you're not meant to fiddle with it like you

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Speaker 2: do with a PC.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's not like my dad opening up our box and

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Speaker 2: throwing in some extra ram. You're not really going to

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Speaker 2: be doing that with an iMac. Right, Yeah, unless you

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Speaker 2: really know your shit, I guess, and Apple. Apple's gonna

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Speaker 2: make it as hard as possible to like do that

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Speaker 2: even if you do know your shit. When Jobs first

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Speaker 2: returns to the company, he holds a meeting with the

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Speaker 2: top designers and executives, and he tells them the problem

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Speaker 2: with Apple today is that none of our products have

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Speaker 2: any sex. His solution, bafflingly is the iMac, which, sorry,

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Speaker 2: it comes out in ninety eight, and I guess people

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Speaker 2: do think it's sexy. I think it's more than it's cute,

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Speaker 2: that it's something like your grandma.

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Speaker 3: You get fucking iMac.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd fuck you could fuck I fucking iMac. That's

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Speaker 2: the Apple campaign we never saw.

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Speaker 3: It's just like a bunch of.

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Speaker 2: Dudes looking at an Imax being like, yeah, fucking iMac. Good.

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna the fucking dune popcorn bucket ear Robert.

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Speaker 2: No, but I I mean, look, Sophie, it now capable

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Speaker 2: of more than one love in our life, you know.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, So the Mac was one of the most

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Speaker 2: limited personal computers on the market, but it was friendly

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Speaker 2: and eight hundred thousand sold in the first five months.

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Speaker 2: This is so, this is like, this does even like

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Speaker 2: about as well as you'd actually hope the original Mac

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Speaker 2: would do. Right, and Apple turns its first profit since

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five. Now, one of the first things Jobs

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Speaker 2: does when he gets back is he reaches back out

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Speaker 2: to Lee Klow and like the team at chaiat Day

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Speaker 2: who'd done that nineteen eighty four campaign, and Jobs is like, hey,

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Speaker 2: please come back and make a special pitch to the

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Speaker 2: Apple board, going against like your usual practices, right because

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Speaker 2: like Klow's a big enough Naneity is like, I don't

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Speaker 2: pitch to companies. If they want me, they come to me, right.

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Speaker 2: But Klow agrees for Jobs to do this, and Jobs

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Speaker 2: cries like remembering this moment years later to Walter Isaacson,

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Speaker 2: which is such an odd moment to get choked up over,

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Speaker 2: given you know his daughter loved my brand. Yeah, this

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Speaker 2: chokes me up. This really chokes me up. It was

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Speaker 2: so clear that Lee loved Apple so much. Here was

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Speaker 2: the best guy at advertising, and he hadn't pitched in

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Speaker 2: ten years. Yet here he was, and he was pitching

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Speaker 2: his heart out because he loved Apple as much as

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Speaker 2: we did. He and his team had come up with

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Speaker 2: this brilliant idea, think Different, and it was ten times

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Speaker 2: better than anything the other agency showed. It choked me

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Speaker 2: up and it still makes me cry to think about it,

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Speaker 2: both the fact that Lee cared so much and how

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Speaker 2: brilliant his think Different idea was. Every once in a while,

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Speaker 2: this is where it gets really funny. Every once in

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Speaker 2: a while, I find myself in the presence of purity,

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Speaker 2: purity of spirit and love, and I always cry. It

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Speaker 2: just reaches in and grabs me. That was one of

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Speaker 2: those moments. There was a purity about it that I

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Speaker 2: will never forget. I cried in my office as he

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Speaker 2: was showing me the idea, and I still cry when

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Speaker 2: I think about it again. This man, his daughter wasn't

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Speaker 2: his daughter for years. But it's like I weep at

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Speaker 2: the beauty of Lee Klaus.

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Speaker 3: That loved much. I love brands.

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Speaker 2: I feel nothing in the face of my own blood.

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Speaker 2: But like Campaign, my god, yeah, a fucking idiot, and

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Speaker 2: it's it's you know, I remember as a kid, I

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Speaker 2: was like a snotty PC gamer right there used to

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Speaker 2: be a it's less of a thing. Now there's a

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Speaker 2: big PC MAC divide.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things I used to work at

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Speaker 3: a PC gaming magazine, I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the things people would bring up

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Speaker 2: that was valid is a critique of Max is that, like, well,

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Speaker 2: most games don't even work on them right because you

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Speaker 2: have to like specifically make it to work on the

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Speaker 2: kind of architecture they had, right. This is in part

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Speaker 2: because Max are so big now, like most really big

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Speaker 2: companies that are making games for a PC are making

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Speaker 2: like a mac poort now. But like that was not

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Speaker 2: really the case with well, it.

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Speaker 3: Was with the Intel processes, but now anyway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not anyway. It used to be much more

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Speaker 2: of a thing. And I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: I remember at the time seeing this campaign, I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: how are you thinking differently if you can't even like

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Speaker 2: modify your own machine. But those of us who got

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Speaker 2: snotty at the inconsistencies and the message of this campaign

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Speaker 2: versus Apple's actual products, we're failing to see something important

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Speaker 2: that was not lost on Steve Jobs. The future market

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Speaker 2: for these machines. It was not people who like technology right.

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Speaker 2: The think different campaign was not based on selling people

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Speaker 2: on like, here's the hardware, here's what you can like,

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Speaker 2: here's what games this will play, right, here's how well

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Speaker 2: you can like do this or that. It was based

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Speaker 2: on the feeling of creativity right, and making people think

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Speaker 2: of great creative minds from the past and kind of

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Speaker 2: see themselves as maybe I could be like that too,

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Speaker 2: if I have a creative enough machine. Right, and Jobs,

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Speaker 2: this is a legitimate insight. Right, We're not going to

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Speaker 2: dwell on processor speed, We're not going to throw much

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Speaker 2: of stats out. We're going to relate these stories of

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Speaker 2: great artists and geniuses from history, and we're in order

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Speaker 2: to embrace a vibe. Right, That's how we're going to

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Speaker 2: make our case for the for the iMac is the vibe. Right,

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Speaker 2: this is a vibe based computing system, and that makes

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Speaker 2: so much fucking money, it's crazy, Like that's a super

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Speaker 2: It's a very good way to sell a computer, it

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Speaker 2: turns out.

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Speaker 3: But also there was a stinky vibe to computing. It

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Speaker 3: was still even there was a fringe nature. You either

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Speaker 3: used one at work and maybe looked at the inenternet.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking like the late nineties right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was still.

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Speaker 3: Yeah so you I mean I played EverQuest back then.

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Speaker 3: I used PCMIA, card Play Ultimate Online before that. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: gaming and PCs in general were very much work. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't really there was personal computing, but it wasn't like

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Speaker 3: it wasn't to the extent it is now yeah by

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Speaker 3: any yesha.

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Speaker 2: And the iMac is definitely like a sizable movement in

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Speaker 2: that direction, right, And you know some of this is

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Speaker 2: that like a lot of the success comes down to

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Speaker 2: Jobs understanding both what the market actually does want and

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Speaker 2: understanding when someone has a good idea for how to

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Speaker 2: market it. Now. Thankfully they didn't go with their entire

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Speaker 2: original concept for the Think Different ad. It was initially

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Speaker 2: set to the Seal song Crazy because Jobs viewed him

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Speaker 2: as one of our greatest living artists. The next version

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Speaker 2: included a reading of a Robert Frost poem, The Road

301
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Speaker 2: Not Taken Steve himself. This is the funniest part to me,

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Speaker 2: Steve Jobs. The suggestion for the Thing Different at is

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Speaker 2: we should have all of the text be cut up

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Speaker 2: pieces of speeches from Robin Williams's character in Dead Poet

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Speaker 2: Society felt so hard for that movie.

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Speaker 3: Guys, this guy is like the average Instagram user. It

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Speaker 3: is really, that's so basic, a very vile, paper thin

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Speaker 3: kind of philosophy. Yeahs important like William Blake or some

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Speaker 3: shit like not trying to be like Flower with Shakespeare. No,

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Speaker 3: he's just like I saw a movie once.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the.

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Speaker 3: Advertising guy made me cry because it was beautiful. How

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Speaker 3: you Think Different?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he taught me how people should be encouraged to

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Speaker 2: embrace their special gifts I'm going to yeah, tend to

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Speaker 2: go be really abusive to a bunch of.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so inspired.

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Speaker 2: So eventually Apple opted to write their own or the

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Speaker 2: ad team opted to write their own original piece for

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Speaker 2: the Think Different ad, which wound up being titled Here's

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Speaker 2: to the Crazy Ones. And I don't want to read

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Speaker 2: the text of all this, I will tell you it

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Speaker 2: ends on the lines. And well, some may see them

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Speaker 2: as the crazy ones, we see genius because the people

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Speaker 2: who are crazy enough to think they can change the

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Speaker 2: world are the ones who do. Steve wrote some of it,

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Speaker 2: including a line about how like some people are the

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Speaker 2: ones who pushed the human race forward, and he clearly

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Speaker 2: is thinking about himself here right like, this is clearly

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Speaker 2: he this affects him because he sees himself as one

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Speaker 2: of these misfit, rebel trouble makers who saw things differently

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Speaker 2: and move the world forward, and definitely saw things differently

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Speaker 2: some things and definitely moved to the human race. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'll give him that forward. Well, some of that's debatable,

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Speaker 2: I guess, well, it depends on how you feel about

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Speaker 2: some of the stuff.

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Speaker 3: Are going to do really funny though, everything you're saying

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00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 3: about this guy is he was actually very standard. He

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00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,360
Speaker 3: thought he was this big daring He had some he

340
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 3: clearly was able to like notice trends and whatever.

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Speaker 2: He had a couple of like legitimate insights. But he

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Speaker 2: was like very very conventional in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 3: And I really think different in the sense that I

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Speaker 3: try and sell something for a profit, and I also

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Speaker 3: hire the fucking pepsi marketing guy so we can do

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Speaker 3: the thing that everyone else is doing. And my vibes

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Speaker 3: come from movies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the same as everyone else when it comes

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Speaker 2: to like, yeah, let's lay off some people, a bunch

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Speaker 2: of people when we don't need to to boost the

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Speaker 2: stock price. Yeah, let's bring in a marketing guy to

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Speaker 2: run things, because obviously running a company is all about sales,

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Speaker 2: you know, like a lot of these kind of basic

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Speaker 2: corporate things. He's the same as everybody else, and he's like,

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Speaker 2: to an extent, the same as every other stingy rich

356
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Speaker 2: guy in a lot of ways. He has this sense

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Speaker 2: of aesthetics, right, both in terms of how to market

358
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Speaker 2: things and in terms of like what do people want

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Speaker 2: a device to look at? That is like that's his

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Speaker 2: real That's the thing that I think it's responsible for

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Speaker 2: a lot of his success and unlike the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: four ad this he used to the crazy One, ADS

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00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 2: moves a shitload of computers right. Isaacson's book gives an

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00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,919
Speaker 2: amusing description of the struggle to find a narrator for

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Speaker 2: this quote. In order to evoke the spirit of Dead

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Speaker 2: Poets Society, clown, Jobs wanted to get Robin Williams to

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Speaker 2: read the narration. His agent said that Williams didn't do ads,

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Speaker 2: so Jobs tried to call him directly. He got through

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Speaker 2: to Williams's wife, who would not let him talk to

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Speaker 2: the actor because she knew how persuasive he could be.

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Speaker 2: They also considered Maya Angelou and Tom Hanks. At a

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Speaker 2: fundraising dinner featuring Bill Clinton that fall, Jobs pulled the

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Speaker 2: president aside and asked him to telephone Hanks to talk

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Speaker 2: him into it, but the President pocket vetoed the request.

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Speaker 2: They ended up with Richard Dreyfus. Oh God, I like Dreyfus.

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Speaker 3: But like yes, ever step down.

377
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Speaker 2: Though it is funny that like Robin Williams's wife gets

378
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 2: a call from Steve Jobs, He's like.

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Speaker 3: No, do not know this.

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Speaker 2: It was a funny room with Steve Jobs. It's no

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Speaker 2: one that's love, right, that's that's someone who legitimately is

382
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,440
Speaker 2: looking at for your best interests.

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00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,640
Speaker 3: I'm also like Robin Williams, a horrifying depression. I won't

384
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,399
Speaker 3: put Steve Jobs anyone near him. No, no manipulative criton.

385
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Speaker 2: I think Tom Hanks could have given him what for,

386
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Speaker 2: but that's probably why Tom Hanks had no interest in

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Speaker 2: working with him. I would have been fun seeing him

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00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 2: and Maya Angelou have a conversation, though, My god. So,

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Speaker 2: speaking of Jobs's friendship with Bill Clinton, you probably will

390
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 2: not be surprised to hear that our former president reached

391
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,159
Speaker 2: out to his buddy, Steve masterful manipulator of the media,

392
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 2: for advice on a little problem he was having. Here's

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Speaker 2: Business Insider quote. In the middle of the Monica Lewinsky scannal,

394
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 2: President Bill Clinton called Steve Jobs to ask him what

395
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,199
Speaker 2: he should do about it. Steve Jobs reportedly gave Clinton

396
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,199
Speaker 2: this advice, I don't know if you did it, but

397
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 2: if so, you've got to tell the country. There was

398
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 2: apparently a long silence on the other end of the line. Later,

399
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 2: when Chelsea Clinton was a Stanford Steve Jobs loan, the

400
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,640
Speaker 2: Clinton's country house nearby so he could spend time with her.

401
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 2: What a fascinating relationship. I call you and I've I've

402
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 2: cheated on my wife publicly in front of the entire country.

403
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,680
Speaker 2: You give me a house when I want to hang

404
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: out with my daughter.

405
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 3: Great?

406
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

407
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 3: What strange relationship? Not problematic, nothing weird happen in that.

408
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,120
Speaker 2: I don't know how much because this is I think

409
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 2: comes from Jobs talking to Isaacson a lot of this,

410
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,719
Speaker 2: but like, I don't know how much. I guess I

411
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 2: don't disbelieve that Bill Clinton would call Steve Jobs for

412
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 2: advice on infidelity. I kind of I kind of don't believe. Jobs'

413
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 2: first response was, if you did it, you've got to

414
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 2: tell the country yea, to.

415
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 3: Do the right ste Jobs also, good lord. The conspiracy

416
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 3: theory is tearing this kind of stuff much be going nuts.

417
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really funny, Like this is like the

418
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,199
Speaker 2: elite talking. Yeah, yeah, this is the elite, and it

419
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 2: it's always framed as being so like much more sighting

420
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 2: than it is. Like they're they're definitely like both people

421
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 2: who have done some damage, but their conversations are about

422
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,440
Speaker 2: like shit, shit, everyone caught me cheating what do I do?

423
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,160
Speaker 2: And him being him everything else and then lying later

424
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Speaker 2: that he said to tell the nation.

425
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Speaker 3: Well, Steve Jokes probably said was well you're fully justified

426
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 3: first of all. First of all, if you tried just

427
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 3: like about his soul.

428
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let me tell you you had I murdered.

429
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're the person you could do that, right.

430
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 2: No, no, no. It is interesting to me that Steve

431
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 2: was willing to lend Bill and Hillary a house so

432
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 2: they can see their daughter where she's at Stanford. He

433
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,160
Speaker 2: he has a very different reaction to Lisa. She gets

434
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 2: into I think Harvard, and Steve is angry at her

435
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: because like she wants to go to college, and she's

436
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 2: kind of like, well you're rich. I feel like you

437
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 2: can pay for it, right. He's like, I'm a dropout.

438
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 2: Why don't you become a dropout. Then he takes it

439
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 2: to Hawaii on like a trip with his family and

440
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 2: repeatedly is like, hey, sure would be better to just

441
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 2: have a vacation every year than pay for your college. Huh.

442
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 2: Don't you just want to go on vacation every year

443
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 2: instead of go to college? Like he kind of tries

444
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 2: to bribe her with trips to Hawaii if she'll drop out.

445
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 3: How about we do both? You rich?

446
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, come on, man, you are Steve Jobs.

447
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 3: I had to eat out with the trash as a child,

448
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 3: when you humiliated being a dave. And Buster's like, fucking like,

449
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 3: I should go to Hawaii and go to college.

450
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: It'd be one thing if he had like a principled

451
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna, you know, pay for you once you're

452
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 2: an adult or whatever, but like what he does instead,

453
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 2: as he starts paying for her to go to college,

454
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 2: and then in like her second semester, he cuts her

455
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 2: out and she has to find out about it when

456
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 2: the school calls her, and he's, what tells you about this?

457
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,360
Speaker 2: So Steve has some neighbors, his mansion's neighbors who were

458
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 2: like some of his friends. But they meet Lisa and

459
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 2: they see how he treats Lisa and it kind of

460
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: turns them off of Steve. And when she she just

461
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: comes to them because she doesn't know what else to

462
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: do when he's like refusing to pay for her tuition,

463
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, you could just live with us

464
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 2: outside of school and we'll pay for your tuition because

465
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: we're all so rich, and this isn't really that much

466
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 2: money to us, my god.

467
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,360
Speaker 3: Which is like, yeah, everyone wipes Steve Johnson's ass for him,

468
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 3: keep on the smell of it. He didn't do it

469
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 3: for himself.

470
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: A lot of ass wiping goes on for this man.

471
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, this guy would have been just a failure had

472
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 3: these had like one person just not know.

473
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 2: No fuck it. Yeah yeah, so yeah. A huge part

474
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: of the new Apple is the industrial design genius of

475
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 2: Johnny Ive. As Chief design Officer for Apple, I was

476
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: largely responsible for the look and feel of the iMac, MacBook, Air, iPhone,

477
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 2: and iPod. Because the whole tablet and smartphone ecosystem today

478
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 2: is made in the image of Apple products, it can

479
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 2: be easy to forget what a sea change they were

480
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: from what had come before. I was one of those

481
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 2: weird nerds who had a friend of mine that gave

482
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: me there. It was some sort of micro Soft running

483
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: PDA like a year or two before the iPhone came out,

484
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: and all I could really do with it was like

485
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 2: take notes and I could play like a like a

486
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: fucking eight bit version of Heroes of Mit and Magic three,

487
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: which is all I had ever wanted from a computer

488
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: to that point in my life. And I was very

489
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: happy with this thing. But people didn't like this stuff.

490
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 2: It was like heavy, It couldn't communicate with anything. It

491
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 2: was just kind of a real pain in the ass.

492
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: And they all you all had to like use a

493
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: stylist input commands, You had to like learn a gesture

494
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 2: language with the stylust. It wasn't like intuitive or whatever.

495
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: And I've kind of one of the things that makes

496
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 2: him important is he's got this like sense of what

497
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 2: do people want to hold in their hand, what feels good? Like,

498
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: what is the kind of thing that people will not

499
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: just use but adopt as part of their life and

500
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: fucking line up outside of a store in order to

501
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 2: get the latest model of right and Jobs falls in

502
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: love with Johnny. He calls him his spiritual partner and Jobs,

503
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 2: his wife would later tell Isaacson most people in Steve's

504
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: life are replaceable, but not Johnny.

505
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 3: Stave forgot an idea for a new watch, Like he

506
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: must have just called him later on Steve got a

507
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: new idea.

508
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the only guy Steve would pick up the

509
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: phone for. And it's very funny to me that his

510
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 2: wife is like, he could replace all of us, but

511
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 2: this man, yeah, this man who makes a good phone.

512
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs is only real love the man who was

513
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 2: nice at making phones out of metal. Now, the success

514
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: of the new Apple also owed a lot to Jobs's gut.

515
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 2: His appreciation for the way I've designed products was part

516
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: of it, but his dog and understanding of what people

517
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 2: didn't want to hold in their pocket was part of it,

518
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 2: a big part of the iPhone's initial success. Jobs again,

519
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: he's certainly he was kind of beyond his technical capacity

520
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: when Wozniak was building the Apple, too.

521
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 3: He is well.

522
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: Beyond it for the iPhone. A lot of his job

523
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 2: with the iPhone is like looking at the different iterations

524
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: of it before market and being like, it's not ready yet.

525
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: It's not ready yet. It's not ready yet. And I

526
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 2: don't know how to judge that on an objective lens

527
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: other than that the iPhone sells like the iPhone right,

528
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 2: Like clearly he was right, you know.

529
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: But also that's one thing that Jobs jobs really, it's

530
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 3: his one thing he really had, which was he knew

531
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: when something was ready. Vision probably wouldn't have gone out

532
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 3: under his works. I don't think so, No, no, And

533
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: honestly that is the big change upon Apple. They'll shove

534
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: shit out the door.

535
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they'll even they'll start like the Apple. The

536
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: news right now is they just cancel their self driving car.

537
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: I don't think Jobs ever starts that program because I

538
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 2: think he might partner with an automotive company. Sure, but

539
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: like get into the car business. Like, no, man, I

540
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 2: don't think that's really something.

541
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 3: If he would have got into it and then had

542
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: to cancel it, he would have laid off the people

543
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 3: in a much more literal sense.

544
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we would have learned if he'd lived longer,

545
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: a lot about him because he he didn't live past

546
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: the era of his competence, right. He understood smartphones and

547
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: tablets and computers and what people wanted out of them,

548
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: how they wanted to use them, what the future was

549
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: of that. Once we moved, we're watching the industry scramble.

550
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: It's why shit like AI and before that fucking NFTs

551
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: and before that, you know, self driving tech and all

552
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 2: this shit has these different like periods of like absolute

553
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 2: obsessions because nobody really knows what the future. AI is

554
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: the thing that feels most like it, right because it

555
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 2: impressed people so much when they saw how far chat

556
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: GPT was, So everyone is jumping on that bandwagon. We

557
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: would actually have learned a lot about Steve's actual level

558
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: of brilliance if he'd gotten to this point, because I

559
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: do wonder would he have been like, no, NFTs, clearly

560
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 2: bullshit self driving tech. It's not going to get there

561
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 2: as past fast as people. He wouldn't, you know, he

562
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: wouldn't have.

563
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 3: Liked crypto enough. He didn't own the ecosystem.

564
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: I suspect he would not have fallen like he would.

565
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: Not have touched anything where he did not control the

566
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: entire end to end process. He would have been like,

567
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 3: what the fuck? People can own part of a thing

568
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 3: I built?

569
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: But uh, I think there is a maybe a version

570
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 2: of him where he's kind of doing the Musk loop,

571
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 2: where he like follows Musk to try to make an

572
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 2: electric car when he sees how well test. I don't

573
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 2: know that that's the case. I can't. Maybe it's more

574
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 2: likely it wouldn't have, but we don't. I mean, he

575
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: doesn't get enough for us to know when he's finally

576
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: passed his depth of understanding. Would he have just scrambled

577
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: like everyone else for bullshit or would he have been like, well, fuck,

578
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. He chose to jump

579
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: on every bad wagon. Yeah, he made the decision today,

580
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: he did. Actually, it was all his choices. Yeah, we are.

581
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 2: We are building to that, thankfully. So while the iMac

582
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: was a successful product, it was the iPod that first

583
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 2: made a massive impact on daily life outside of the

584
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: world of computing for Apple. Right, and you young listeners

585
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: might not remember this, but back around to the turn

586
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: of the century, there was this big kerfuffle over piracy

587
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: and the recording industry. Right, most cool people like me

588
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: were stealing all of their music and occasionally the IRIA

589
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 2: would catch one of us and send us to fucking

590
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: prison for the crime. Fresh Box twenty albums right related

591
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: prison sentences. Yeah, yeah, and people responded to this largely

592
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 2: pirating even harder. Jobs. Part of his conception of iTunes

593
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 2: is I'm going to put a stop to that, right,

594
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: and he does to a significant extent, Like the iTunes

595
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: is kind of what kills piracy as it had been

596
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: as like this thing that all young people are doing.

597
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: And it's because Jobs understands the people who've been arguing

598
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: for piracy are right. The big thing piracy advocates would

599
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: always say is we're not stealing from artists. We're fucking

600
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: up the recording industry, but they fuck over artists, and

601
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: by for free spreading the music these people are making,

602
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: we're overall benefiting them. Right now, that's not been it,

603
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: that's debatably true. Right, There's a lot of ways in

604
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: which artists have been heard, especially with the era of Spotify.

605
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: I'm not papering over that. But what was accurate about

606
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: that that job saw is that, like, well, they are

607
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: right that if people have really easy, if they don't

608
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: have to buy like a thirty dollars album or whatever

609
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: to get one song, people will buy more music overall.

610
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 3: Right, And that was the other thing in England, at

611
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 3: least albums will like twenty quick like yeah, I remember

612
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: thinking about listening to Dark Side of the Moon, an

613
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: album I'd never heard of. I went to HMV and

614
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: it was twenty five quid. Yeah, oh, same album, like,

615
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 3: same size album, whatever, And it was just I did

616
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: not hear that album for years and years and years,

617
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: because yeah, I don't know if I'm gonna like any

618
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: of this. Nobody on you owned it. Yeah, And so

619
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: being able to buy a song was actually pretty cool.

620
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 3: And also CD's a big and annoying.

621
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: And jobs the way I mean, he has a big

622
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: role in this, Right, This isn't just a thing that

623
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: happens by coincidence. He personally negotiates a deal with the

624
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: record companies where he can offer songs for ninety nine

625
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: cents apiece, which makes them for the first time a

626
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: song is cheap enough to impulse by. And this is

627
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 2: what fucks up piracy, right is because piracy advocates had

628
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: been kind of right, people would buy music if it

629
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: was less of a fucking ripoff, right, and jobs kind

630
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: of proves that because they do now this devastates a

631
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: lot of the music industry, and particularly because record companies

632
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: are record companies. They don't lose their shirts, but they

633
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: do fuck over artists worse.

634
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: Right.

635
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: I'm not saying we're at a worse period now or better,

636
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: but like the ways in which artists get fucked over

637
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: has certainly changed as a result of iTunes, right, and

638
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: iTunes led directly to the era of Spotify and other

639
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: music streaming services. One of the things that's happened in

640
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: that world is that musicians can basically just make a

641
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: living touring now, right, he don't make the kind of

642
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: money from album sales or from people listening to because

643
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: we don't even sell albums anymore. People just like you Spotify,

644
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: and that doesn't bring nearly the same amount of money.

645
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: And you can't blame Jobs for all. He was not

646
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: orchestrating that whole process. But there's a good article on

647
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: the subject on the impact his decisions have on the

648
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: music industry by John Naughton, who writes music played an

649
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: outsize role in the evolution of the Internet. As Larry

650
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: Lessig put it in Free Culture, file sharing music was

651
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: the crack cocaine of the Internet's growth. It drove demand

652
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: for access to the Internet more powerfully than any other

653
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: single application. Jobs became the first licensed dealer in that drug,

654
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: and iTunes provided the saddle that abled Apple to write

655
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: the Tiger. And that's a very apt way of reading it.

656
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: Right then, that is more or less what happens with

657
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: the iPod now. The birth of the smartphone era coincided

658
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: almost perfectly with the start of the Obama years, and

659
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: by the time Barack Obama was inaugurated in two thousand

660
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: and nine, Android smartphones had started to creep out onto

661
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: the market, and the iPhone had rapidly gone from a

662
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 2: thing rich people you know, bought because who else can

663
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: afford five hundred dollars for a phone? Am I right

664
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 2: to the hottest tech product in history? And Steve had

665
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 2: an odd relationship with Obama. Right. The Obama years and

666
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: the early smartphone years are very directly tied together. And

667
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: it's hard to remember now, but people were excited about

668
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: smartphones at one point, and people were also excited about

669
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: Barack Obama. Right. There was this belief that he was

670
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: going to be this historically progressive candidate, and there was

671
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: also this belief that he was a literal communist who

672
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: was going to like turn the world into communist China.

673
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: And I want you to guess ed where was jobs

674
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: closer to on that, I.

675
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 3: Guess he was more towards the capitalist side.

676
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: He was, in fact, more towards the capitalist side. Like

677
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: a lot of boomers, he seems to have grown a

678
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: bit more conservative as he aged. I don't fully get

679
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: his I think he was at least frustrated with Obama,

680
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: but because of his perception the president was like anti business,

681
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: which is a wild thing to accuse Barack Obama of being. Yeah,

682
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: not at all accurate. In the fall of twenty ten,

683
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: Steve's wife, who was a major donor to the Democratic

684
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: Party told him that the president was really psyched to

685
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: meet with him, and then Obama had reached out to

686
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: her and he was like, we'd love to have Steve

687
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: come by, and Jobs is like, look, if you invite

688
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: me personally, then all come by. But it's got to

689
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: be an invitation from like the president for me to

690
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: meet with.

691
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: Him, from Barack Obama at White House dot Gov.

692
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And eventually Obama does it, right, that does

693
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: show you somewhat of like where his social position is

694
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: at this point that he is able to make that happen.

695
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: And when they finally did meet, he unleashed a rant

696
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: at Obama that would not have sounded entirely out of

697
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: place on The Rush Limbaugh Show. Atacked the education system

698
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: and claimed it was crippled by unions. Quote until the teachers'

699
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: unions were broken, there was almost no hope for education reform,

700
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: he said, And what did he mean by that? Well,

701
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: one proposal he made was that principals should be able

702
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: to hire and fire teachers at will school should be

703
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: open until six pm for eleven months of the year.

704
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: And it's like, it's always fun to me when people

705
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: make proposals like this after bragging about how they dropped

706
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: out of school early. I'm not saying there are other

707
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 2: countries that keep kids in school longer.

708
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: How does he feel about principles being allowed to kick

709
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: kids out who blue stuff up?

710
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, well right, right, shouldn't be able to kick kids

711
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: out for setting off explosives. Fucking But also, like, it's

712
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: such a fraud thing when you're the guy who's always like, no,

713
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: why would you want to go to college. People don't

714
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: need to go to school. You learn everything you need

715
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: to know from the world and intuition to like kids

716
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: need to be locked in school eleven months out of

717
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: the year, never let them free.

718
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: Oh so this guy who's full of like mysticism and

719
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: philosophical thoughts and all of these grandiose ideas turns out

720
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: to just be a very fucking boring conservative guy.

721
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 6: Yes, like that is kind of one of this mystified

722
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 6: technological figure whoeveryone has given this godlike sense and he's

723
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 6: just a boring conservative man.

724
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

725
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 3: It's kind of like Barack Obama in that he appeared

726
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 3: to be appeared to be kind of like center left, like, oh,

727
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 3: fighting for the consumer, but really just working for the establishment. Jeez,

728
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 3: and lending the establishment house. Yeah, when we need to

729
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 3: establish and lend him.

730
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to. Like the guy who does the

731
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four commercial is like, schools need to be

732
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: more like factories. I could go into like a there's

733
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 2: a lot of debate over what is good for schools.

734
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 2: That's not this podcast. I just think it's funny how

735
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: it's inconsistent with some of the shit jobs was saying

736
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: out in public. But you know, it is consistent the

737
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: quality of the advertisers of this project product podcast, whatever

738
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: we call ourselves. Anyway, here's some ads. We're back. So

739
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: when Steve is having this meeting with Barack Obama, the

740
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: most pressing issue that he presented to the President was

741
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: the USA's troubling lack of skilled engineers. This, he says,

742
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: is what has forced him to outsource Apple's manufacturing to China.

743
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: He's like, look, the number of workers we need to

744
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: make all these products. You got to have thirty thousand

745
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: engineers to support them, and the US simply cannot graduate

746
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 2: that many people with engineering degrees. So that's why I

747
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: have to make everything in China. That's a very funny

748
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: thing to say, and this article. Quote from an article

749
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: in the Huffington Post continues, You're headed for a one

750
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: term presidency, he told Obama at the start of their meeting,

751
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: and insisting that the administration needed to be more business friendly.

752
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: As an example, jobs describe the ease with which companies

753
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 2: can build factories in China compared to the United States,

754
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: where regulations and unnecessary costs make it difficult to them.

755
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: So I want to see what does he mean by this,

756
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: because he's saying, I would love to make these things

757
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: in America, but we don't have enough smart people and

758
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: we're too tied down by regulations for me to have

759
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: factories here. So let's talk about how Steve's ideal factory works.

760
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 2: It is true that by twenty eleven, Apple employed something

761
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: like seven hundred thousand people in China, and because a

762
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: workforce that large needed about thirty thousand engineers, China was

763
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 2: maybe the only place to produce Apple products. Isaacson probably

764
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: focuses a lot on this part of the claim and

765
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: less on what was an equally large reason why it

766
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: had to be China, which is that China does not

767
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: enjoy the same safety in union and basic quality of

768
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: life considerations that we have in the United States for

769
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: this kind of work, right, The kind of minimal guarantees

770
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 2: we have of worker quality of life are too much

771
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: for an Apple factory to meet and still have an

772
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 2: affordable product. The reality is that a lot of modern

773
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: consumer technology cannot function without cities worth of abused workers. Right.

774
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: This is not just an Apple thing. This is every

775
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: tech product. We all know this. This is our This

776
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: is our tied up child and abasement at omeloss.

777
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 3: Right.

778
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: Although we don't live in ome loss because everything still

779
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 2: sucks in we're doing this. But that's a separate question.

780
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 3: Are we the bostards?

781
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: Are we the bastards? Yeah? Yes, always. But a big

782
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 2: part of like why this is the way the tech

783
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: industry works, why you have so much churn in products,

784
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: why products have to be produced at the rate that

785
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: they are produced, is not organic entirely. It has to

786
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: do with decisions made by Steve Jobs and made when

787
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: he was kind of inventing the foundations of what we

788
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: now call the consumer electronics industry, which to a significant extent,

789
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: he did a lot of what we just consider consumer

790
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 2: tech today is shit that Apple started doing. Right. Part

791
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: of that is like the way products get released, you

792
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: know how you have these like big showy releases and

793
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: like you have to be able to sell a bunch

794
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: of stuff at once, right right after. Like so much

795
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 2: of Apple's business gets formed from the idea of every

796
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: time we have a new product on the market, fans

797
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: are going to line up at the door to get

798
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: the new model, and we will get a bunch of

799
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: free coverage from the news on that, a bunch of

800
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 2: pr from that will get a stock retuch from that.

801
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 2: When you do that, there's a cost to the workers

802
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: to make that possible.

803
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 3: Right.

804
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: That was not inevitably the way that the company was

805
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 2: going to be structured. It was structured this way because

806
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: of things that jobs did. These consumer frenzies are a

807
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: big part of like why what made Apple apple? And

808
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: another big part of what made Apple apple was planned

809
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: obsolescence and this gets worked into the rest of the

810
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: industry too. Certainly some people would have always done that,

811
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: but the fact that Apple does sets a precedent. Right,

812
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: the Apple too, and it's not a precedent that was

813
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 2: in Apple's DNA. The Apple too had been anti fragile.

814
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: This is a product that is considered good for thirteen

815
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: years that's unimaginable from modern computing, right, with fairly minimal

816
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 2: changes in terms of like the actual structure of the thing,

817
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: and people can upgrade it themselves so that you can

818
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: use it longer. Right. It's a great product because you

819
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 2: can make it what you need it to be and

820
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 2: keep it relevant. And Jobs hated that he wanted disposable technology,

821
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: and Apple embraced a policy allegedly. I say allegedly because

822
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 2: there are lawsuits about this around planned obsolescence. This blew

823
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: up in a big way in twenty seventeen when Apple

824
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: was apparently caught throttling battery performance on older phones. They

825
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: claim this is to prevent shutdowns on aging phones. It's

826
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: a safety. We have to do this basically, right, It's

827
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 2: the only way to make it work. But it also

828
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: happened to push people into buying new phones early, not

829
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: just because Apple's throttling the battery. Perhaps they did have

830
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: to do that to prevent a shutdown, but because they

831
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: made it impossible to swap in new batteries. If you

832
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: could easily replace the battery, you can keep the iPhone

833
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 2: going longer. But it makes it a lot uglier and grosser,

834
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: seeming to Steve, even though the amount of waste generated

835
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 2: from swapping a battery is vastly less than swapping an

836
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: entire phone. Apple has faced numerous lawsuits over planned obsolescens,

837
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: including in France and Italy over their process of serialization,

838
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: which links spare parts to specific years of iPhones via

839
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: serial numbers in such a way that it stops independent

840
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: repairs from fixing them using generic parts. And when you

841
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: bring this stuff up, it can just seem like, well,

842
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: Apple is like a company like any other, and they

843
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: all do some stuff that's fucked up. It's important to

844
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: note I think when you cover him, the way we

845
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: have all of this is ste This is very consistent

846
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: with how he's always thought about these products. You shouldn't

847
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 2: be in there, you shouldn't be meddling with them. You'll

848
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: buy what we give you, and you'll buy a new

849
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: one when it gets.

850
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 3: You'll be thankful for the chance.

851
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you'll be thankful for the chance. That's a

852
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 2: twenty something year plan for this man. This is not

853
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: just something that evolved at a cost cutting because it

854
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: made sense. This is part of his overall vision for

855
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: how much computing should work right. And I don't think overall,

856
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 2: all the whole body of allegations and lawsuits and like,

857
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: is this really planned obs lescens or is it something

858
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: less severe? I don't think all that's meaningful. So as

859
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: you will understand basically what's happening here, what is worth

860
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 2: laboring over are the consequences towards Apple's policy. The fact

861
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: that these machines are largely disposable and that they are

862
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 2: kind of pushing you to upgrade regularly means you need

863
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 2: a fuckload more of them being made, And the means

864
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: that you need to be able to make a lot

865
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 2: of them in a very quick span of time, and

866
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: the only way to do that is by really hurting

867
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 2: certain people. In twenty ten, fourteen workers for Apple's biggest supplier,

868
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: Fox Con committed suicide at work. Several more employees attempted

869
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: suicide by throwing themselves off of massive high rise dorm towers.

870
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: These are places where they live that are factory towns

871
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 2: built into the factory right. Another twenty workers had to

872
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: be talked down from committing suicide by management. Now, the

873
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: fact that all of this happens within the span of

874
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: a year creates a sensation in the news and subsequent

875
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: reporting detailed how fox Con policy was to publicly humiliate

876
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: workers for poor performance and forced hours of unplayed overtime.

877
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: I want to read a quote from a fox Con

878
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 2: worker interviewed by Brian Merchant in twenty sixteen.

879
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 3: Quote.

880
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: Zoo and his friend were both walk on recruits, though

881
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: not necessarily willing ones. They call fox Conn a foxtrap,

882
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: he says, because it tricks a lot of people. He

883
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: says fox Conn promised them free housing, but then force

884
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 2: them to pay exorbitantly high bills for electricity and water.

885
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 2: The current dorms sleep eight to a room, and he

886
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: says they used to be twelve to a room, but

887
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: fox Con would shirk social insurance and be late or

888
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: fail to pay bonuses. And many workers sign contracts that

889
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: subtract a hefty penalty from their pay if they quit

890
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: before a three month introductory period. So this is like

891
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: a vile situation. It's the only way to get as

892
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: many people as you need to have for this right

893
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: without paying too much for the devices themselves that people

894
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: would be willing to pay. Maybe then people ought to

895
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: be pay right Apple. You know when there are all

896
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: these suicides in twenty ten, it causes a ton of

897
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: bed priss for hours, and Apple puts a lot of

898
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: pr behind. They set out a list of standards for

899
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: the humane treatment of their factory workers, and anyone who

900
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: wants to make products for Apple has to abide by

901
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: these rules, right, and even move some of their production work.

902
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: Now they just shift it to other factories mostly not

903
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 2: all that far away. Are they better? Maybe a little bit?

904
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 3: Who's gonna know? The Chinese media, well.

905
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: Exactly, And so the international media does start to investigate

906
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 2: this stuff, right. That's where Brian Merchants twenty sixteen, History

907
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 2: of the Ifi one Device comes in. Yeah, and it's

908
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: a really interesting book, really good book. That's why we're

909
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: going to quote from it here. But Brian describes how

910
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 2: Jobs personally responded to the news hoopla over this rash

911
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 2: of suicides and all of the human shrapnel from his

912
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: dream quote. Steve Jobs, for his part, declared, we're all

913
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: over that. When asked about the spate of deaths and

914
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: pointed out that the rate of suicides at fox Conn

915
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: was within the national average. He actually he like compares

916
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: the factory to an American town and like, is ev

917
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: one of our towns will probably have this suicide, right,

918
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 2: and it's like one thing, man, we've got.

919
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 3: Guns people off themselves all the time.

920
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: People are fleeing themselves off buildings.

921
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 3: Like yeah, oh my god.

922
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: It's also it's worth noting he's saying, well, if you

923
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 2: compare it to the national average, Well, if you compare

924
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: it to like the average of an entire country with

925
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 2: people of all age ranges living and working and having

926
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: relationships in their regular lives, maybe it does. But this

927
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: is a building full of extremely young gig workers who

928
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: are mostly there planning to do a job for six months.

929
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: I don't think they're suicide rate is naturally as high

930
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: as you've made it.

931
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: I just also, would you trust those numbers?

932
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 2: No, of course not. That's the other thing, Like.

933
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 3: No, Layah has lied, Like yeah, and even then, is

934
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 3: it He's basically saying, you can have a little bit

935
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 3: of suicide if you'd like, yeah, it's okay, just people

936
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 3: kill themselves.

937
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,479
Speaker 2: Some people are going to kill themselves at our murder factories. Yeah, yes,

938
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's it's one of those things like

939
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: Fox High has to put out anti suicide nets and

940
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 2: like invest in like massive surveillance to try to like

941
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 2: catch people before they do this. Which like, maybe you

942
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: would have gotten a better response from just making work

943
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: less miserable. Maybe that was the problem. But no, the

944
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: nets sound good, then nets sound good.

945
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 3: Need more phone? Phone good?

946
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: Now you Americans need more phone and we desperately want

947
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: your money. Yes, yeah, it's all good, it's great. I

948
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: love that this is behind every line outside of an

949
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: Apple store. But also when I start taking out my

950
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: own ass about that this is behind whatever phone I

951
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: have right now, right like one way or the other.

952
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: Maybe do less of an extent with some companies, but

953
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: not much. Yeah, I think the problem here there's always

954
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: going to be some level of like fuck upedness somewhere

955
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: in the line of a product, even one that you need,

956
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 2: and we do need smartphones. They could have been from

957
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: the beginning easier to repair and modify in a way

958
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: that reduced this cost, and that didn't happen to an

959
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 2: extent because Jobs didn't want it to happen, because even

960
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: before the smartphone was a glimmer in anybody's eye, he

961
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: wants devices you can't fiddle with. Right, We've talked a

962
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 2: lot about suicides at Fox confactories, and I think that's important.

963
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 2: I'm sure most of you were aware that this was happening.

964
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: I want to drill a little bit into how the

965
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: work directly is involved with that, and some of it

966
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: has to do with policies at FOXCN that encouraged the

967
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 2: humiliation of workers who make mistakes. One employee interviewed by

968
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: Merchant explained, when the boss comes down to expect the work,

969
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: if they find any problems, they won't scold you. Then

970
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 2: they will scold you in front of everyone in a

971
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 2: meeting later. It's insulting and humiliating to people all the time.

972
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 2: Punish someone to make an example for everyone else. It's systematic,

973
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: and Brian continues. Zoo says there was another suicide a

974
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: few months ago. He saw it himself. The man was

975
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 2: a student who worked on the iPhone assembly line, somebody

976
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: I knew, somebody I saw around the cafeteria. After being

977
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: publicly scolded by a manager, he got into a quarrel.

978
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: Company officials called the police. So the worker hadn't been violent,

979
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: just a He took it very personally, Zoo says, and

980
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: he couldn't get through it. Three days later, he jumped

981
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 2: out of a ninth story window and jobs. I don't

982
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: believe he instituted this policy. I'm certain he wasn't specifically

983
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 2: aware of it, right, This is much lower on a level,

984
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 2: and I think he would have paid attention to it.

985
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: Is interesting though, that this is exactly how he would

986
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: run a factory. Yes, because this is a factory, right

987
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 2: he did racing work as is kind of his m Yeah, yeah,

988
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 2: this is completely I don't think he had any other

989
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 2: than like, in making this business exist and in pushing

990
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 2: for a company that would need to be this way

991
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: to meet his quotas. I don't think he had a

992
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: direct role in this, but it is consistent with how

993
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 2: he treated people. That Brian Merchant book is pretty fucking devastating.

994
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: There's a bit in it after this where he's like,

995
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: he's trying to answer the question of like, why didn't

996
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: you know I heard about some of these suicides? Why

997
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 2: didn't I hear about this suicide? To like that you

998
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 2: just like reported to me. Zue and his friend look

999
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 2: at each other and shrug. Here's someone dies. One day later,

1000
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: the whole thing doesn't exist. His friend says, you forget

1001
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: about it. Jesus Christ, damn if that doesn't sum up

1002
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 2: the twenty first century in a nutshell right there, Like

1003
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: oh god, yeah, you care the first time, then it

1004
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: keeps happening and you just kind of get used to it.

1005
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: You know. That is how all these people have like

1006
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: hacked our brains as they realize that, like, if you

1007
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 2: just pushed through with the evil and keep doing more evil,

1008
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: eventually we get tired and go home.

1009
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: Elon Musk is a reprehensible human, don't get me wrong.

1010
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 3: But Steve Jobs was behind some truly awful human rights things.

1011
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And people are rightly angry at like

1012
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,479
Speaker 2: some conditions from Tesla factories they ought to be. Yeah,

1013
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 2: and this is the same kind of thing. It's on

1014
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: a grander scale because he's been much more successful.

1015
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 3: Guy's killed themselves so often that you're kind of like, oh,

1016
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, which suicide are you referring to?

1017
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Jobs of course saw nothing to be concerned

1018
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: with in the situation. He tells one reporter after a

1019
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: rash of suicides. Foxcott is not a sweatshop. It's a factory.

1020
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 2: But my gosh, they have restaurants and movie theaters. He's like, look,

1021
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: it's it's nice, so it can't it's not even a swash.

1022
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 3: Its conditioning.

1023
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: Idiot, And one of the things I love about Brian

1024
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: Merchant is he like basically breaks into a fox Con

1025
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: factory while it's like in operation to look at it,

1026
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: like just just to like walk around and get a feel.

1027
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 3: For Honestly, he Brian Merchant, he's pretty cool.

1028
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: Against him, yeah, at least based on God. Every time

1029
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 2: I say I've had nothing against someone, someone's like, actually,

1030
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 2: did you know that a dog in nineteen eighty nine?

1031
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 2: I don't know. Man, don't tell me if he did

1032
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: a bad of capitalism. There's there's there's too many bad

1033
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: people out there for me to get all that, all

1034
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: that burnt out of shape about every one of them.

1035
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 2: I'm just going to pretend everything's fine forever now. That

1036
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 2: same year, one hundred and fifty were employees at fox

1037
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 2: Conn got together on the roof of a factory and

1038
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: threatened to commit mass suicide. This was a month or

1039
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: two after Tim Cook had visited Lungwa to meet with

1040
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: suicide prevention experts about conditions and Apple factories. But workers

1041
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: argued that no changes had really been made and they

1042
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,919
Speaker 2: saw threatening mass suicide. It's the only leverage they had

1043
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 2: to force Apple to act. And these guys are to

1044
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 2: be fair They're like, we don't blame Apple, we blame

1045
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 2: Fox con but we know that making a big public

1046
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: stick is the only way to make anything happen. The

1047
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: more damning case to make against Jobs in particular and

1048
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 2: Apple in general, because it's made in his image, is

1049
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: that his vision of mass consumer pocket computing necessitated factories

1050
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 2: like this in a way that even other handheld device

1051
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 2: manufacturers did not. Some of this was due to Apple's

1052
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 2: quality control standards, which were high, but others have to

1053
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: do with the fact that he was obsessed with secrecy.

1054
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: Right.

1055
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 2: Part of why these factories can't just be normal factories.

1056
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 2: They need to be closed loops, right, is that he

1057
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 2: is obsessed with nothing getting out about what's coming in

1058
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 2: the future, what the next Apple product is going to be.

1059
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 2: Jobs's whole vision was that the first time anyone knows

1060
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: what we're really making, I am a bouncing it on

1061
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: stage and it's ready to go. There's no drip drip

1062
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 2: of information. You get it all at once, and then

1063
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: the fucker's on sale and you go stand out in

1064
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 2: front of a store to buy it.

1065
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 4: Right.

1066
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 2: This strategy, this is a legitimate strategy. It works for Apple,

1067
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 2: but it necessitates kind of being crazy people about keeping

1068
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: what you're working on under wraps. And I found this

1069
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 2: right up from a former employee describing his experiences in

1070
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: Apple in the United States.

1071
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: Right.

1072
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: Having been at Apple and also at a large defense

1073
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: contractor where I would routinely walk by areas that said

1074
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 2: top secret clearance required, I can say that Apple simply

1075
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 2: put more effort into making secrecy part of the culture.

1076
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 2: A few things I noticed at Apple code names for

1077
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 2: every product. No one referred to products any other way.

1078
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 2: Team members who are also on special teams don't tell

1079
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 2: their coworkers what they do. Black windows and frosted curtains,

1080
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 2: trash bins were monitored, and you get stuff like that.

1081
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: Apparently if you were on the iPhone at certain points,

1082
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: you're basically working in like a black box in an

1083
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: air gapped room, Like this is CIA shit, right.

1084
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 3: And I don't resent them for that.

1085
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: What?

1086
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 3: No, what's that for? Are you going to get to

1087
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 3: the Jason Chen iPhone force situation?

1088
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: Oh God?

1089
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 3: Was that the guy who who found he got an iPhone?

1090
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 3: That's for that? Someone left in a bar and Steve

1091
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 3: Jobs had the police fucking raid his house and he

1092
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 3: called him. He's like, get me the phone, get a phone.

1093
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 2: This was like a huge article in early tech journalism.

1094
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 2: I remember how jealous we all were. And then yeah,

1095
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: Chin gets fucking raided by the police basically ruined his life.

1096
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah oh really, I wasn't actually aware of this. I

1097
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 2: should have dug any anymore.

1098
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: They just they tore through him in his life. There

1099
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 3: was like legal consequences, but thankfully Gizmono got cleared of

1100
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 3: But it was just they treated it like he'd stolen

1101
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 3: Steve Jobs's kid, which we all know he would have

1102
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 3: treated with less seriousness than this in the iPhone.

1103
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 2: Great guy. And it's obviously if you are being paid

1104
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 2: what these Apple engineers are being paid, and you know

1105
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 2: the job is crazy secrecy and compartmentalization, that's your choice,

1106
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 2: you know, being abused, right, you can set that standard

1107
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 2: at your company, and I don't think that is unethical,

1108
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: but it does. The fact, the way that this translates to,

1109
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,439
Speaker 2: I want our shit to be made in places where

1110
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: the employees we can lock them down and have control

1111
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: over them. That is part of why again Fox kind

1112
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 2: would have been doing some messed up shit without Apple.

1113
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 2: But like Apple's need for secrecy has a big impact

1114
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: on how they treat their people right, and it's key

1115
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: to Jobs as visions. So he is an integral part

1116
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 2: of this really ugly system at its foundation. Now, to

1117
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 2: understand why Jobs was so obsessed with secrecy, you have

1118
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 2: to understand that Jobs put a lot of effort into

1119
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,479
Speaker 2: making Apple seem fundamentally different from the rest of consumer tech.

1120
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 2: Every one of their competitive We've done coverage of the

1121
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 2: of the of cees, the Consumer Electronics show you know

1122
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: here at cool Zone. I used to go to Mobile

1123
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: World Congress and Barbolona. Apple never went to that.

1124
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:56,439
Speaker 4: Shit.

1125
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 2: These are where like every Lenovo, you know, fucking Microsoft.

1126
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 2: They yeah, oh wait, no, you're right, len I've always

1127
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 2: done well. They did private meetings this year.

1128
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1129
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 2: But most big tech companies, at least especially during this

1130
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 2: period of time, would do their releases around one of

1131
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: these conferences. Apple never did, and they would they did

1132
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: their own shows they had like Macworld and shit. And

1133
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 2: that element of surprise is such a central part of

1134
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 2: how Apple operated under Jobs and still does today that

1135
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 2: it has a name Surprise and Delight. In one internal

1136
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen presentation, someone at Apple wrote, our surprise and

1137
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 2: delight business model requires a huge volume of labor for

1138
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 2: only a short period of time as we ramp products.

1139
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: In other words, because the goal is to surprise the

1140
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 2: consumers to send them scrambling to line up outside of

1141
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 2: Apple stores. To create the kind of unhinged buds that

1142
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: help them sell their products, they needed a highly restricted

1143
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 2: workforce that was available for limited periods of time. In China,

1144
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: this necessitated the huge hiring of numbers of workers of

1145
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 2: what are called dispatch labor. Right these are productction pinch hitters.

1146
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: These are guys who are shipped out to factories on

1147
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: short notice in order to deal with surges in demand.

1148
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: And because they're basically folks you're pulling in off the

1149
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: street or whatever to like help you meet a deadline,

1150
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: they don't benefit from pay and worker protections like regular employees.

1151
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 2: This becomes such a problem in China because of Apple's

1152
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 2: need to hit these targets that in twenty fourteen, China

1153
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 2: enacts a new law to crack down on the process,

1154
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 2: which was seen as part of why these jobs are

1155
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 2: so miserable. You don't have nearly the kind of protections

1156
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 2: you're being lied to off and you're generally being stolen

1157
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: from And it's known that You're only going to be

1158
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 2: there a couple of months, right, so they can fuck

1159
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 2: you over. So in twenty fourteen, China mandates that only

1160
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: ten percent of a factory's workforce can be temps, and

1161
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 2: an internal memo Apple notes that this is basically death

1162
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: for them. Our surprise and a Light business model requires

1163
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: a huge volume of labor for only a short period

1164
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: of time. We are making it difficult for our suppliers

1165
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 2: to comply with this law, as ten percent dispatch is

1166
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 2: simply not enough to cope with the spikes in labor

1167
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 2: demand we are putting during our ramps. So all of

1168
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: this what I've just quoted is after jobs passed. But

1169
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 2: this is all starting under him, at his direct at

1170
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 2: his direction, and it's all being continued by his protege,

1171
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 2: Tim Cook. Apple commissions a two year study with Pegatron

1172
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 2: around this point, one of their manufacturers, and it shows

1173
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: that regular employees have better working conditions and are like

1174
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: you know, less likely to be suicidally miserable, and that

1175
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 2: if Apple keeps releasing products by this Surprise and Delight model,

1176
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 2: they're not going to be able to meet China's legal

1177
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 2: requirements and they're going to have to imserate more workers.

1178
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 2: An article by Wayne maw for The Information sums up

1179
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 2: what happens next. Apple weighed the pros and cons of

1180
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: pushing suppliers to comply with the law. If Apple forced

1181
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 2: suppliers to cut dispatch labor, it would eliminate regulatory risk,

1182
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 2: but drain resources, create costs, and delay product launches. On

1183
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 2: the other hand, Apple could continue to do nothing as

1184
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 2: long as local authorities didn't enforce the law. Apple executives

1185
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,760
Speaker 2: decided to push facilities to reduce their use of dispatch

1186
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 2: labor only if it came a problem with local authorities.

1187
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 2: So they're just like, we just break the law and

1188
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: see if it's going to be a problem, and it wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1189
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 2: I mean again, at a certain point, you can't blame

1190
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 2: a shark if you throw a bunch of chum in

1191
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 2: the water, right, Yeah, I mean you can because these

1192
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: are people.

1193
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 3: In human rights abuses. Though you've got to give him that.

1194
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 2: He helped a lot of people innovate human rights abuses

1195
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 2: in some ways that are beautiful. And you know who

1196
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 2: else is innovative, maybe in the same way, maybe not.

1197
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: I don't know who's going to be the advertiser that

1198
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: comes on after this, We're back. Here's to the crazy ones.

1199
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: I want to see that recut to be about like

1200
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: raytheon Lockheed Martin show, like a fucking barrel bomb hitting.

1201
00:57:55,800 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that rock that's not actually a rocket, it's

1202
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 3: got knives in it.

1203
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 2: Hey, the knife missile, Yeah, redo the old apple, think

1204
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: different ad But for the knife missile, just.

1205
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 3: As it's about to blow up, the knives come out.

1206
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 2: Ohoh, I mean that is thinking differently. It's the first

1207
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: defense product that was like, what if we didn't kill

1208
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: everyone's kids all the time, but what if.

1209
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 3: The people we killed we really fucking killed.

1210
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to see like some fucking weapons cellared

1211
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: in like a Steve Job's turtleneck being like just one

1212
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: more fixtures of like buses blowing up the several knives.

1213
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: What if we could kill fewer kids.

1214
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 3: But instead of exploding, there were seven knives. Oh, everyone's clapping.

1215
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. The other day I was stabbing a man to

1216
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 2: death out in front of my house and I felt,

1217
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: what if we did this for politics? Internationally?

1218
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 3: I had a man stabbed the other day and it

1219
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 3: really made me think about the way we do business.

1220
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: The Greeks knew that the knife was the most efficient

1221
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 2: shape in nature, and so I put seven of them on

1222
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 2: the end of this rocket.

1223
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 3: But that's exactly like it is.

1224
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 2: Oh boy, So yeah, I hope I've made the case

1225
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 2: about Steve Jobs. It's like the actual long term, significant

1226
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: human consequences that he has. He's not the whole part

1227
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 2: of this, but he is Steve Jobs. He is a

1228
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: foundational person and like how consumer tech looks. So when

1229
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 2: we look at things that are now broad evils across

1230
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: all of consumer tech, it's important to note he has

1231
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 2: a big role in why those evils exist the way

1232
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 2: that they do. I'm not going to say that consumer

1233
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: tech would have ever been like a moral paragon, but

1234
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 2: that doesn't get him off the hook for his role

1235
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 2: in this right right, and I don't I don't know.

1236
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: Maybe you want to say it's inevitable anyone else would

1237
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 2: have made similar decisions. I don't know that not out

1238
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: of the don't know if they.

1239
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 3: Would have.

1240
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was kind of. He had to fight

1241
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: a long time to get anyone to embraces the customers

1242
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 2: shouldn't be able to make any changes at all, and

1243
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 2: it should be a close ed loop idea that was

1244
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 2: the thing he got attacked for for a while before

1245
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 2: being right, And yeah, maybe if he hadn't fought for it,

1246
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 2: there's some ugliness we could have avoided. We'll never know,

1247
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 2: But that doesn't remove his culpability here, right, So that's

1248
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 2: the long term evil stuff. Obviously, people are going to

1249
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 2: note that we're leaving out some of his brilliant business decisions.

1250
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 2: The establishment of Apple stores, right, which was a hugely

1251
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 2: influential move. A lot of people argued that it wouldn't work.

1252
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 2: It did, the launch of the iPad, the app store.

1253
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 2: But this is not a podcast where we list the

1254
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: achievements of billionaires at length, right. What's worth saying is

1255
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 2: that the period where Jobs helmed Apple after he came

1256
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 2: back was historically a good run, not just for Apple

1257
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 2: but for any company of any kind. And it was

1258
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 2: such a titanic success that when his cancer diagnosis came out,

1259
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 2: a New York Times reporter fretted that Apple was jobs

1260
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 2: and Jobs was Apple. Basically, this could tank a big

1261
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 2: chunk of the tech industry, right, And it didn't. By

1262
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 2: the way, Apple, they've made some bad calls, but have

1263
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: a lot of money at hand. They're doing all right.

1264
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: You don't need to worry for them, And maybe the

1265
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: fact that they have been so relatively successful in the

1266
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 2: period after his death is probably, at least when it

1267
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 2: comes to evaluating him as a businessman, something you should

1268
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: keep in mind. I think it's probably fair to say

1269
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 2: he was the most successful tech CEO of his generation.

1270
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 2: Maybe absolutely, Yeah, Like, it's kind of hard to argue

1271
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 2: with that, right.

1272
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 3: And he also managed to turn journalists into just drooling idiots.

1273
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 3: He had a not a high effect on journalists. I

1274
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 3: just want to read you something from o'malik that was

1275
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 3: published the day after the day that Steve Jobs died.

1276
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 3: I was going to read you a section because this

1277
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 3: whole thing fucking sucks. Mac iPod and iPhone they are

1278
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 3: like Silicon Valleys, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and eating life changing.

1279
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 3: And perhaps that is why I didn't want to meet him,

1280
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 3: interview him, or even talk to him. I had the

1281
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 3: opportunity on numerous occasions when I was attending Apples events,

1282
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 3: but I decided not to. To me, just the idea

1283
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 3: of Steve was powerful enough. The idea of Steve led

1284
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 3: me to follow my heart, make tough choices, be brutally honest,

1285
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 3: with myself and sometimes annoying people I love and always

1286
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 3: remember that in the end, it's all about making your

1287
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 3: customers happy. There are simple ways to get along with everyone.

1288
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 3: There are easier ways to get things done. There are compromises.

1289
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 3: But to me, Steve Jobs meant try harder, damn it.

1290
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 3: Your customers, brackets, readers, expect better than that. Steve Jobs

1291
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 3: taught me to care about the little things because in

1292
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 3: the end, little things matter. Steve Jobs was my muse.

1293
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 3: Trust me, he is the secrets to many of us

1294
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 3: in the valley, Mark Zuckerbug, Jeff Bezos, Dave Morin, Jack Dawsey.

1295
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 3: We're all part of the tribe called Jobs. There's a

1296
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 3: whole generation of entrepreneurs who ask themselves this one question,

1297
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 3: what will Steve do? Natch? What would have Steve done?

1298
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 3: This is meant to be someone who was a critic

1299
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 3: of the tech industry.

1300
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is right that that is how all of

1301
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: these founder guys see it. But saying you feel that

1302
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 2: way too, and pretending to be a journalist is so embarrassing.

1303
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 3: Also so funny to be like, I won't talk to

1304
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 3: him because I'm too scared.

1305
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's just anti actual journalism. Whoom, don't speak

1306
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 2: truth to power, because then truth might not think you

1307
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 2: might think you're dumb and you have a picture of

1308
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 2: truth up above your bed and you really want to

1309
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel that way. I have someone who

1310
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 2: is my muse that I feel that way about, and

1311
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 2: it's Werner Herzog. But when I say that purely because

1312
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 2: I want to cut someone's leg off with a chainsaw,

1313
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 2: that's the only part of his legacy I want for myself,

1314
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 2: I would also like to remove someone's leg with a chainsaw.

1315
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 2: So if you need a leg removed out there, listeners,

1316
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 2: hit me up.

1317
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 3: I got some inspiration.

1318
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, every day I think is now the time to

1319
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,439
Speaker 2: cut somebody's leg off with a chainsaw? And so far

1320
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 2: it hasn't been. But maybe that's what'll take us to

1321
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 2: the next level, Sophie. Sophie approves. Okay, I'm gonna I'm

1322
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 2: gonna start making.

1323
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: Some interesting My head off, Mike.

1324
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 2: So, Sophie, I'm gonna I'm gonna expense one of those

1325
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 2: battery powered ones. I've got a big Huskvarner right now

1326
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 2: and it's it's it's pain in the ass. Yeah, Yeah,

1327
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 2: we'll get something real convenient for taking off a leg.

1328
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 3: Imagine taking off a leg, but with a portable mechanism.

1329
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 3: The lelsy to enjoy the leg separation process.

1330
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 2: So, speaking of medical procedures that are ill advised, in

1331
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: two thousand and three, doctors found a shadow on Steve

1332
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: Jobs's pancreas during a CT scan. This turned out to

1333
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: be pancreatic cancer. And I would never make fun of

1334
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 2: somebody for pancreatic cancer. That's how my mom died. It's

1335
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 2: it's one of the worst ways I can imaginifying. It

1336
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 2: fucking sucks ass, right, and for most people who get

1337
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 2: that diagnosis, it is a guarantee of death. I had friends,

1338
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 2: two doctors, and I called both of them right after

1339
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 2: my mom's diagnosis, and both of them, and I'm glad

1340
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 2: that they did, said the same thing, which is, like,

1341
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, we've just never gotten a good handle

1342
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 2: on this shit. There's not really any hope. And that's

1343
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 2: how I went into it, right, And that's how most

1344
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 2: people have to go into having pancreatic cancer. For one thing,

1345
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 2: By the time it gets discovered, you're usually in like

1346
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 2: stage four, right, like it's terminal. Jobs gets really lucky,

1347
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 2: he gets crazy lucky. He has pancreatic cancer, but it's

1348
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 2: a form of pancreatic cancer that only five percent of

1349
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: pancreatic cancer sufferers have that's actually really easy to treat.

1350
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 2: Like he gets the fucking golden ticket pancreatic yankey, he

1351
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 2: gets really lucky, the kind that's totally totally survivable if

1352
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 2: you just do what your doctors say right away. Right,

1353
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 2: you do want to get in there quick. But it

1354
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 2: was found early, so it's they're almost a very good chance.

1355
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: Given the kind of doctors he could afford, that he

1356
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 2: would have made a full recovery. But this is Steve Jobs,

1357
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 2: and Steve Jobs did not trust his doctors, So for

1358
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 2: nine months he delays taking any kind of real treatment

1359
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 2: and tries a quack diet to fight his cancer instead.

1360
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 2: He later tells Isaacson, I didn't want my body to

1361
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 2: be opened. I didn't want to be violated in that way.

1362
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 2: And like Bro, I get it's said that I've heard

1363
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 2: it said at least that like a lot of oncologists

1364
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 2: will often turn down chemo because if it's like a

1365
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 2: rough cancer or whatever, even if your chance is like

1366
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 2: you know, okay, it might not, you might not consider

1367
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 2: it worth it. I don't know. I'm no one to

1368
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 2: tell people what they should or shouldn't do there, but like,

1369
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:39,919
Speaker 2: that's not what we This is like one of those

1370
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 2: things where his doctors are like, look, man, you can

1371
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 2: survive this thing. Nobody survives. If we act right now.

1372
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 3: You will be fine.

1373
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 2: Now I'm fit comfortable with letting somebody cut into me,

1374
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 2: and he spends he tries to like eat fruit and

1375
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 2: cure his fucking cancer for nine months. Isaacson puts this

1376
01:06:56,320 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 2: down to a fatal case of Jobs's reality distortion feeling, right,

1377
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 2: he uses this ability to talk other people into fantasies

1378
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 2: on himself and it works, and it kind of is

1379
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 2: what kills him, and that may in fact be what happened. Right,

1380
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 2: I think it's possible that that actually gives Jobs a

1381
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 2: little bit too much credit, that that is still viewing

1382
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 2: him as this almost super powerful figure, because what we'd

1383
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 2: say for anyone else is he read this fucking quack

1384
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 2: book by a fucking liar when he was a young man,

1385
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 2: and he never got over it, and he was never

1386
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 2: he was never able to like objectively look at reality

1387
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 2: and recognize that like nothing else he'd try to do

1388
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 2: as a result of this diet had worked. He got

1389
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 2: caught up in a fucking a little bit of like

1390
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 2: a cultic belief system, and he couldn't shake himself from it,

1391
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:47,439
Speaker 2: and that's what killed him. We would say that about

1392
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 2: anyone else who refused a very treatable cancer that they

1393
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,360
Speaker 2: could easily afford to treat because they believed that some

1394
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 2: shit about eating fruit would cure it. For jobs. Were like,

1395
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 2: he used his reality distortion field on himself. Helf this time.

1396
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:03,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, he was just a dip shit.

1397
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 2: Well, he was a you know what, I'll even sell

1398
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 2: This happens to perfectly decent people in a bunch of ways.

1399
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 2: He fell for a con, That's what it is. He

1400
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 2: fell for a con. Yes, it happens. And by the

1401
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 2: time he decides to submit to surgery, the cancer had

1402
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 2: spread to his liver. And I was just saying, I'm

1403
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 2: not going to say falling for a con is a

1404
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 2: bad thing to do. What he does next is kind

1405
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 2: of evil. So he has liver cancer. His cancer has spread,

1406
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 2: his pancreatic cancer is no longer easily treatable, and the

1407
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 2: first thing he finds that's like going to kill him

1408
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 2: is that his liver is failing on him. Now, liver

1409
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 2: transplants are rare. People who need them usually have to

1410
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 2: wait a year or more, and only about a third

1411
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 2: of the people who get put on the liver transplant

1412
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 2: list actually receive a liver. Right. It's a tough thing

1413
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 2: needing to get a liver. There's not enough in fucking circulation,

1414
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 2: and so if you get a liver, someone else is

1415
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 2: not getting one. Now, obviously, I don't think that's math.

1416
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 2: Anyone who needs a transplant should generally be concerned with. Right,

1417
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 2: everyone's life is valuable, give it a go. There's no

1418
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,759
Speaker 2: way to make But Jobs number one is not normally

1419
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 2: a guy who would have gotten the transplant in this situation.

1420
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 2: He still has cancer spreading through his body. He has

1421
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 2: a low chance of surviving.

1422
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 3: Right.

1423
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 2: This is a case where I think responsible you'd be like, look,

1424
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 2: there are some people who could easily survive with this liver.

1425
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 2: You have let your cancer get so bad that there's

1426
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 2: really nothing we can do for you. But Jobs is

1427
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 2: rich and able to game the system. And the gist

1428
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 2: of what he does is that there are one hundred

1429
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 2: and twenty seven centers in the US that do liver transplants. Right,

1430
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,120
Speaker 2: and each has its own waiting list, and so the

1431
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:39,559
Speaker 2: waiting list where he was was super long. It was

1432
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 2: in most places. But he was able to pay someone

1433
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 2: to find a center in Tennessee where there wasn't much

1434
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 2: of a waiting list, and he gets his transplant in

1435
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 2: three months. This is not illegal, though the rules I

1436
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 2: think some rules have changed as a result of what

1437
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 2: Jobs did, but it is unethical. For one thing, again,

1438
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 2: he would not have needed the liver if his doctor,

1439
01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,759
Speaker 2: if he had taken the treatment. His doctor and his wife,

1440
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 2: in his sister and whatnot are all telling him from

1441
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 2: the beginning get treated. Because he doesn't listen to them

1442
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 2: he needs a liver, he winds up destroying his liver,

1443
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 2: and then he takes a liver that might have saved

1444
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 2: someone else's life and he dies anyway because his cancer

1445
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 2: had already gotten too advanced. And that is kind of

1446
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 2: killing another person. That's at least like negligent homicide when

1447
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 2: it's directly there, not like getting a transplant. But when

1448
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 2: number one, your need for it is directly the result

1449
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 2: of your own irresponsibility of like you specifically engineering a

1450
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 2: situation that was avoidable. This isn't even like, yeah, you

1451
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 2: had like a period of time where you were addicted

1452
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 2: and so your liver got fucked up later in life. Like,

1453
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 2: I don't blame anyone for that. We all have you know,

1454
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 2: people get second chances and shit, this is you had

1455
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 2: a treatable cancer and you didn't and so now you

1456
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:49,320
Speaker 2: need a liver and you stole one kind.

1457
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 3: And I think, thinking about it for a second, I

1458
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,599
Speaker 3: think it isn't that he has a reality distortion field.

1459
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 3: I think he just cannot admit that he's not smart

1460
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 3: enough than some things. Yeah, he tried to outsmart the

1461
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 3: California welfare system. Yeah, he tried to outsmart cancer and

1462
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 3: it did not work, and he very nearly did be

1463
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:11,719
Speaker 3: other than the fact that his body had been wrecked.

1464
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, by just the sheer the horrors of fighting it. Yeah,

1465
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 2: it's rough. One thing I'll say for the Steve Jobs story,

1466
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 2: it's very rare in that you have a guy who

1467
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 2: is a bastard and not only does he get his comeuppance,

1468
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:28,720
Speaker 2: but he gets his comeuppance in a way that is

1469
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 2: his fall is directly tied to his hubris. Right, It

1470
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 2: would not be very funny if like, and then he

1471
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 2: just got a cancer that was untreatable and he died horribly. Right,

1472
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 2: that's just like, well, a guy who sucked died in

1473
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 2: a horrible way. Okay, It's almost like the universe gave

1474
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 2: him a chance.

1475
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, like, let's see how smart you are on the

1476
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 5: fuck couple yourself a little to save your own life,

1477
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 5: and he doesn't, and he has to spend the remainder

1478
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 5: of his life knowing he'd fucked up.

1479
01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 2: People who are around him I have heard in a

1480
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 2: number of times were like, yeah, he was like powerfully

1481
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 2: regretful of fucking up.

1482
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 3: He also looked like he was dying of a horrifying disease. Yeah,

1483
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:11,280
Speaker 3: and no amount of money could stop that, No amount

1484
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,759
Speaker 3: of fame could stop that. The universe very much humbled

1485
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 3: and then killed him.

1486
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 2: Well, it's no amount of power or wealth or fame

1487
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,720
Speaker 2: could have stopped that. Listening to his wife could have.

1488
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, listening to another person admitting someone else

1489
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:25,960
Speaker 3: was right.

1490
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:28,879
Speaker 2: And that is kind of we get this almost like fable,

1491
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 2: like moral lesson, very dark moral lesson. At the end

1492
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 2: of this, like you were given one chance to avert

1493
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 2: your horrible fate, and it was listened to the women

1494
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 2: in your life, and you couldn't do it, and so

1495
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 2: maybe that's a little, a little satisfying right. More importantly,

1496
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 2: by the end of his life, it is kind of

1497
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 2: worth noting he came to accept how awfully he'd treated

1498
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:56,919
Speaker 2: Lisa in her childhood. He expresses this to Isaac Sinnet's

1499
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,599
Speaker 2: a lot. It's the only thing he repeatedly. He seems

1500
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:02,640
Speaker 2: to have genuinely gone out of his way to be like,

1501
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:05,920
Speaker 2: I was very wrong in what I did here. And

1502
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 2: she spends some time with him near the end of

1503
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 2: his life, and he's very apologetic. And I want to

1504
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 2: close this by quoting for you how she describes one

1505
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 2: of their final conversations when he is on his deathbed.

1506
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 2: I want to say something. You were not to blame,

1507
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 2: he started to cry. If only we'd had a manual,

1508
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 2: if only I'd been wiser, But you were not to blame.

1509
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,080
Speaker 2: I want you to know you were not to blame

1510
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 2: for any of it. He'd waited to apologize until there

1511
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 2: was hardly anything left of him. This was what I'd

1512
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 2: been waiting to hear. It felt like cool water on

1513
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 2: a burn. I'm so sorry, Liz, he cried, and shook

1514
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:38,879
Speaker 2: his head side to side. He was sitting up, cradling

1515
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:40,799
Speaker 2: his head in his hand, and because he had shrunk

1516
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 2: and lost fat, his hands looked disproportionately large, his neck

1517
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 2: too thin to hold his skull like one of the

1518
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:49,559
Speaker 2: Rodean sculptures on the burghers of Calais. I wish I

1519
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 2: could go back. I wish I could change, but it's

1520
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 2: too late. What can I do now, It's just too late,

1521
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 2: he cried, and his body shook, his breath caught on

1522
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:59,560
Speaker 2: his sobs, and I wished he'd stop after that, he

1523
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 2: said it, And I owe you one.

1524
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:03,639
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1525
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 2: Sorry.

1526
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 3: I'm glad that woman got that closure.

1527
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 2: I'm glad she got that closure. And I'm glad he's

1528
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:13,760
Speaker 2: he got that moment of knowledge of how bad.

1529
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 3: But I also question whether he would have got there

1530
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 3: without this much pain.

1531
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:19,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I don't know that.

1532
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think if he had been healthy and

1533
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 3: lived to a grand old age, he would have probably

1534
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 3: been unapologetic to the fucking end.

1535
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe.

1536
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:33,280
Speaker 3: And if I'm being presumptuous, I'm sorry, this guy's a

1537
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 3: piece of shit.

1538
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 2: We'll never know, but it is kind of satisfying to

1539
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 2: of all of these guys, he got the ending you'd

1540
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 2: hope for all of them. Yeah, where they are brought

1541
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:48,679
Speaker 2: low in their hubris. The universe forcibly shows them. Your

1542
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 2: wealth and your ingenuity have limits, and you cannot confront

1543
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:56,680
Speaker 2: or surmount them. Right if they had been shown, if

1544
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 2: they all would be shown that at the end and

1545
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 2: have a chance to really regret the cruel things they've

1546
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 2: done in their lives, that's what we all want for them,

1547
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 2: is for them to have a blinding moment of awareness

1548
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 2: and horror and then go out right. Yes, And Steve

1549
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 2: got more of that than most of them do, and

1550
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 2: is not on a moral thing on his part. It's

1551
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 2: not like he spent the last of twenty years of

1552
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:22,799
Speaker 2: his life working to undo his horrible crimes or anything.

1553
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 2: But there's at least a little bit of a satisfying

1554
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 2: arc there, So there you go.

1555
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 3: People still believe his suffering was not enough for the

1556
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 3: suffering he caused. Oh yeah, but maybe it was. Maybe

1557
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 3: that is enough. Maybe that's what these people deserve, because

1558
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 3: it wasn't just the pain cause than the suffering cause,

1559
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 3: but the fact that he really had to sit and

1560
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:47,200
Speaker 3: suffer with its things thing of beauty. And I'm sorry

1561
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 3: if that sounds cruel, but I'm a father and the

1562
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 3: idea of dressing down a child. The juty of a

1563
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 3: parent is to raise a child. You have a juty

1564
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 3: to them. They don't have one to you. And for

1565
01:15:57,479 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 3: a man with this much power of money to be

1566
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 3: this reprehensible to child of any age, let alone a

1567
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 3: fucking seven year old, is just disgusting.

1568
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice that he had that feeling, and you

1569
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 2: nailed it there of being powerless, because so much of

1570
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 2: what made him him, of the way he treated people

1571
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 2: was wanting them to feel powerless. Right dressing down one

1572
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,799
Speaker 2: employee in a room full of them, right fully fully

1573
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 2: luxuriating in the fact that like I am the founder,

1574
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 2: I am the I am your boss, and whatever I

1575
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 2: say to you, I can say to you, I can

1576
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 2: treat you like garbage. You are here at my pleasure

1577
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:33,880
Speaker 2: and you mean nothing to me.

1578
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:34,559
Speaker 3: Right.

1579
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:37,880
Speaker 2: That was clearly something that was very important to Steve

1580
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,800
Speaker 2: to feel and express in his moments of anger. And

1581
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 2: then the universe said that to him, like, Oh, you

1582
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 2: don't really matter all that much. You're done fucked up.

1583
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:49,799
Speaker 3: By is one chance, one chance to admit that you're fallible,

1584
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:52,800
Speaker 3: one chance to give some to be vulnerable and let

1585
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 3: the world dictate your path. He's like, no, I will,

1586
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 3: I will eat my berries or whatever.

1587
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 2: It is such a face. It's like a Greek myth, right,

1588
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:06,600
Speaker 2: it is. It's such a narratively satisfying downfall that you

1589
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:08,360
Speaker 2: really never get those.

1590
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 3: And for such a big piece of shit. But you

1591
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 3: know what, the thing that really I'm not being in

1592
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 3: the tech industry since two thousand and eight and kind

1593
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 3: of earlier because I was writing about video games for

1594
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 3: this entire time, I thought Steve Jobs was kind of

1595
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,760
Speaker 3: a bad guy. I had no idea the extent. And

1596
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:28,120
Speaker 3: it makes me disgusted that the people who wrote so

1597
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:30,040
Speaker 3: fondly of him at the time, because I refuse to

1598
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:32,640
Speaker 3: believe that these stories that were new, that they just

1599
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 3: I'm sure tons of these were going around. But also

1600
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 3: even if they didn't know at the time, where's the

1601
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 3: fucking outcry? Now? Everyone should be so deeply ashamed of

1602
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 3: this man. This man is disgusting. The fact that this

1603
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:52,599
Speaker 3: is the architect of modern technology is such a black

1604
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 3: mark on everyone. Everyone who appreciated him. What Mosburg should

1605
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:00,760
Speaker 3: be ashamed of himself? The Wall Street Journal guy who

1606
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 3: so often talked about how great Joe's was and used

1607
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,200
Speaker 3: to get calls fro him, and Steve has given me

1608
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 3: a new thing. He's doing a willing and able press

1609
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 3: operative for Apple.

1610
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they all had to buy into this image that

1611
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 2: Jobs had of himself, and I guess the benefit is

1612
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 2: they all did help to kill him in that right

1613
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:25,440
Speaker 2: by like crafting that that feeling of like almost prophetic

1614
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 2: infallibility in the man.

1615
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:28,519
Speaker 3: It is.

1616
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 2: It is like a black mark on the discipline as

1617
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 2: a profession, but it did, it did help take him

1618
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 2: the rest of the way over that line. I guess. So,

1619
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 2: I don't know where to go. Maybe if we all

1620
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 2: maybe if we all get really agreed it's been like

1621
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 2: three years really really going hard for Elon Musk to

1622
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 2: just absolutely drive him past the point of sanity. We

1623
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 2: can get him to I don't know, to try to

1624
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:58,879
Speaker 2: turn his car into an actual spaceship and shoot himself

1625
01:18:58,880 --> 01:18:59,479
Speaker 2: into the sky.

1626
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 3: I mean, if you think about it, Yeah, this kind

1627
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:04,280
Speaker 3: of fate might be what a white seal. I'm not

1628
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 3: talking about driving anyone's suicide. Don't don't want to punt

1629
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:10,560
Speaker 3: his fight in such thing. However, mister Musku is the

1630
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 3: kind of guy'd be like, actually, the only correct way

1631
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 3: to solve my cancer is to use a computer algorithm

1632
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 3: that I will make. Yeah, and the algorithm is just like,

1633
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:20,360
Speaker 3: take a bunch of ketamine.

1634
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. His AI tells him to treat his lymphoma

1635
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,839
Speaker 2: with ketamine, and Grok is just like, oh boy, why

1636
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,639
Speaker 2: begin take a bunch of cat We're all really reliant

1637
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 2: on Groc to make the right decision there. I mean,

1638
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 2: I do hope a downfall like this for all of

1639
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:40,360
Speaker 2: these moguls right where they are brought low by their

1640
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 2: own their own personal weaknesses. I think the worst thing

1641
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:48,000
Speaker 2: about a guy like Bill Gates, right, who's got his

1642
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 2: own share of bad things, is that Gates would never

1643
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,560
Speaker 2: be this man. Bill Gates hires the best doctors in

1644
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 2: the world and then he listens to what they say, right, Yes,

1645
01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 2: so he doesn't die, Yeah, yeah, he doesn't any die. Yeah.

1646
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 3: It's just it's great. It really has made me deeply

1647
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 3: reflect on that time in the tech industry because but

1648
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 3: there were people posting about crying when Steve Jobs died.

1649
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:13,639
Speaker 3: Multiple people.

1650
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was reporting. I was bummed because,

1651
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 2: like Apple was exciting to report about. We'd had a

1652
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 2: couple of really exciting years, and I was like, oh,

1653
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:25,640
Speaker 2: that's a bummer. You know, this guy who ran a

1654
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:28,639
Speaker 2: company that I thought was really interesting to write about

1655
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 2: is dead. But I didn't know much about him personally.

1656
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 2: You know, I had started to because I had read

1657
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:37,640
Speaker 2: Infinite Loop by that point, which I think is like

1658
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 2: the first really critical piece of big reporting on Jobs.

1659
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember, I was in the gym. I was

1660
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:47,479
Speaker 3: living in Brooklyn at the time. I said, oh, fuck,

1661
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 3: Steve Jobs died, and none of the guys looked up.

1662
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:53,800
Speaker 4: I actually went to the Apple store of the day

1663
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 4: that he died because my fucking phone battery stopped working.

1664
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm so surprised.

1665
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:02,799
Speaker 4: And they had this like giant, like shrine like photo

1666
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 4: of him on all the screens, and people at the

1667
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 4: Genius Bar were crying.

1668
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:13,800
Speaker 2: Ah, Sophie, your phone died at the same time Jobs did.

1669
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:17,040
Speaker 2: That means your new phone has his spirit in it.

1670
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 3: It's the spirit of jumps inside whatever phone you had

1671
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 3: backs while your phone just doesn't listen to you all

1672
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:22,880
Speaker 3: the time because you're a woman.

1673
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 2: Refuses to work.

1674
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 4: There were We're very incompatible to that.

1675
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 3: Face ID just doesn't work.

1676
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:32,520
Speaker 1: We're incompatible. But yet I can rock a turtleneck.

1677
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:39,679
Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm hmm. Speaking of turtlenecks, hopefully fucking Mitch mcconnad

1678
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:42,640
Speaker 2: dies next, fingers crossed, everybody all right ed? Where can

1679
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 2: folks find?

1680
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:45,640
Speaker 3: You can find me at better offline dot com. You

1681
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 3: can find a podcast on my newsletter. You find me

1682
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:51,920
Speaker 3: on Twitter, It's zitron, zitron dot, Besky dot Social on

1683
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:54,679
Speaker 3: Blue Sky, and I'm technically on threads. But who gives

1684
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:55,000
Speaker 3: a ship?

1685
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 6: Right?

1686
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly who gives a ship? And who gives a

1687
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 2: ship at.

1688
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 3: You?

1689
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 4: I do?

1690
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:05,880
Speaker 2: I love you. I'm the only one who will ever

1691
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 2: love you. Please continue listening to podcasts.

1692
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1693
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:18,480
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1694
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:21,840
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1695
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.