1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Is that healing or is that causing more damage? I 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us this 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: is actually going to cause more damage because this isn't 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: the real person. Like you want the real person here, 5 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: the real person is not here. There are no Girls 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: on the Internet. As a production of I Heart Radio 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: and unbost Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this is there 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: are no Girls on the Internet. Musical icon Whitney Houston 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: died in but that doesn't stopped her from performing. She's 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: back from the dead and ready to entertain kind of 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: an evening with Whitney. The Whitney Houston Hologram Tour first 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: debuted in Europe and it is currently doing a residency 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: in Las Vegas, leading up to a possible United States 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: tour next year. Whitney's family and a state are involved 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: with the show's production. Pat Houston, Whitney's sister and the 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: manager of her estate, raved about the Hologram show, saying 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: we're excited to bring this cutting edge musical experience to 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: the fans who have supported the pop culture phenomenon that 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: was Whitney Houston because they deserve nothing less and all 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: that might be true. The increasing use of holograms to 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: recreate people who are no longer living is something that 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: we should at least be asking questions about, rather than 23 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: just accept as another new normal of our increasingly tech 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: enabled world. In a piece called the Zombification of Whitney 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: Houston Spirituality, writer Brooke Obi asks what right do any 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: of us have to demand that our deceased heroes, loved ones, 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: or anyone else act as a zombie for our entertainment? 28 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: I had heard about, um, this hologram tour that Whitney 29 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: Houston's estate, Um we're putting on in Europe, and it 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: was finally coming to the United States. I've been thinking 31 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: about this for a really long time and really haunted 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: by this for a really long time, but it was 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: kind of out of sight, out of mind. Um. But 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: now it is um happening. Uh there's a residency for 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: six months in Vegas of this Whitney Houston hologram um. 36 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: And it was so disturbing to me. And it was 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: also happening at the same time as Halloween, Like they 38 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: released or they premiered this hologram residency in Las Vegas 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: the week of Halloween, and I was like, wow, yep, 40 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: that is perfect. You know, if you want to um 41 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: exhume some ghosts, if you want to um zombifie and icon, 42 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: why not start the week of Halloween. UM. So yeah, 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: So that was really what triggered me finally sitting down 44 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,119 Speaker 1: and getting all of my thoughts out of my head 45 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: and onto the page. Well, I mean, the Halloween date 46 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: I think is so kind of perfect because it is 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: a really spooky, haunting kind of thing, especially given that 48 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like for so many of us 49 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: black women, we have this special connection to Whitney Houston. 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: I know that she occupies a very special place in 51 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: my heart. Do you feel the same way? Absolutely? I Mean, 52 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: she is everything, She's the voice, you know, and her 53 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: life UM was so beautiful and so tragic and UM 54 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: so unnecessarily ended UM and so it's it's it was 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: one of the most devastating, UM celebrity losses UM that 56 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: I've experienced in my life. And you know, I I 57 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: was just so sad to see the people that were 58 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: around her, UM and the lack of care and the 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: lack of regard UM for someone who needed help and 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: assistance and and wasn't able to get it and wasn't 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: able to live um authentically as herself either and still 62 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: have the career um that she wanted to have. And 63 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: so to see what's happening now, this is basically the 64 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: same thing that's happening in her life is now happening 65 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: in her death. She her image is being constructed for 66 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: her um, you know, without her consent um, and she's 67 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: being put to work today. The term zombies contras up brains, 68 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: craving blood vests like Donna the Dead, but those pop 69 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: culture interpretations obscure the actual grim origins of zombies and 70 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: their connection to slavery. I had read is really amazing 71 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: in depth article in the The Atlantic um by Mike 72 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: barani Um and he it was about the tragic forgotten 73 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: history of zombies, and so it's it's talking about the 74 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: ways that um Haitian enslaved people. Their deepest fear was that, 75 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, if they died by suicide, because the plantations 76 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: were so brutal, the French were so brutal in their 77 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: in their slavery of Haitians, that they would be trapped 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: in their bodies, and that they would be trapped on 79 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: these plantations forever. And then once Haitian voodoo UM evolved, 80 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: that UM zombie mythology evolved as well, and basically, UM 81 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: there was a sorcerer that would take these dead bodies 82 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: and resurrect them for evil purposes, you know, and use 83 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: them for free labor. And that's what I saw. That's 84 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: what I saw in my mind when I heard about 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: this hologram and this idea of taking Whitney Um, who 86 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: was not able to rest and not able to control 87 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: her own image in her lifetime, now in death, being 88 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: used for free labor once again, and racking in money 89 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: for UM the estate UM for the next six months 90 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: in this hologram residency. The thing about this that strikes 91 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: me as particularly sad is that I saw the ways 92 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: that Whitney was stripped of her humanity and identity in life. 93 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: Aspects of who Whitney was as a person were obscured 94 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: to make her more marketable to mainstream white audiences. Music 95 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: labels were segregated by race, and in the beginning, her 96 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: sound was intentionally manufactured to have white crossover appeal. Clive Davis, 97 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: the head of Arista Records, signed Whitney when she was 98 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: just a teenager after an A and R rep saw 99 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: her singing with her mother's nightclub act. Davis became a 100 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: huge force in shaping Whitney's image and career. He vetoed 101 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: her releasing anything to black sounding for her first two albums. 102 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: His choice came with a real cost for Whitney. At 103 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: the height of her success in the eighties, Whitney was 104 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: booed by black audiences at the Soul Train Awards when 105 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: the host introduced her as a nominee for Best R 106 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: and B Artist. Reverend L. Sharpton even organized a boycott 107 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: of her music, calling her Whitey Houston on flyers that 108 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: you can check out on the link in our show description. 109 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: Being stripped of this aspect of her identity was hard 110 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: for Whitney. Sometimes it gets you down. You're not black 111 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: enough for them, You're not R and B enough, You're 112 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: very pop. The white audience has taken you away from them, 113 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: She explained that an interview, and it didn't stop there now. 114 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: In the eighties, the music industry was deeply homophobic, and 115 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: to find mainstream success, an artist would sometimes have to 116 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: conceal parts of themselves. So it isn't surprising that Whitney 117 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: herself did not talk openly about her sexuality and we'll 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: never get to hear about it in her own words, 119 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: But her close friend and confidant, Robin Crawford, an openly 120 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: gay black woman who had been decades by whitney side 121 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: as her assistant and creative director, opened up about her 122 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: romantic relationship with Whitney. They met at summer campus kids 123 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: and quickly became inseparable, But soon after Whitney signed with 124 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: Clive Davis at Arista, she ended their intimate relationship because quote, 125 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: it would make our journey even more difficult, Crawford remembers 126 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: at her memoir A Song for You, My life with 127 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: Whitney Houston. In the two thousands, the years leading up 128 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: to her tragic death, Whitney dealt with addiction and family issues, 129 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: like the two thousand three arrest of her husband, Bobby Brown, 130 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: for allegedly hitting her in the face, and the same 131 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: media who had once been happy to portray her as 132 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: Black America's sweetheart gleefully made her the butt of jokes 133 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: for failing to live up to the narrow role they 134 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: had written her into. Whitney wasn't really able to be 135 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: her full self when she was alive, and now as 136 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: a hologram, rendered back to life without any of the 137 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: baggage that comes with being a complex living person. Whitney 138 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: is now and always on, always can, already version of 139 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: herself who can perform on command and generate income for 140 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: others forever, And in a way the hologram suggests that 141 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: that's what music executives really wanted from her all along. 142 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: I was really struck by in your pieces. It's sort 143 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: of that element of you know that these Haitian enslaved people, 144 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: how they that was like their deepest fear, you know, 145 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: being exhumed, being reanimated, and being trapped in this cycle 146 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: of having to work to make money from their labor forever. 147 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: And how deeply kind of sad that is, not being 148 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: able to rest given the kind of life that Whitney 149 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: Houston did live. And I think there's something so incredibly 150 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: sad but also relatable about the life that Whitney Houston lived, 151 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, in order for her to be to be 152 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: sort of like marketable as as an artist, she was 153 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: stripped from so much of what made her her right, 154 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: her blackness, her queerness, so so much of like the 155 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: things that made Whitney who she was. And I feel that, 156 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, she played that game, and then when she 157 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: stepped away to be a more authentic version of herself, 158 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: how quickly America turned on her, How quickly America turned 159 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: her into a joke. And so I do think there's 160 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: some sort of cautionary tale about this tight rope that 161 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: we all have to walk as black women, and that's 162 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: why so many of us identify with her, but as 163 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: this hologram. It's like, in her death, they have been 164 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: able to strip her from all of these things that 165 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: make her her so that they have this marketable version 166 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: that they can just make money off of. You know, 167 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: they don't have to include her blackness, her queerness, her 168 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: addiction issues, her family issues. She can just be a 169 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: hologram money maker, money maker for them in death forever, right, 170 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: And it's probably a lot more profitable for them with 171 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: her not being able to um be alive and to 172 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: have the issues that she was dealing with. UM. You know, 173 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: she you don't have to worry about whether or not 174 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: she's going to go out on stage because they can 175 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: put her out whenever they to. Like it's it's really 176 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: like I was saying in my piece, it's it's that 177 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: the worst black mirror episode. Um that's a very very 178 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: brilliant show. But there's an episode with Miley Cyrus that's 179 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: basically the same thing. They have this pop star that 180 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: they're putting forcing into a coma and then using her 181 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: you know music, um and using um all all sorts 182 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: of other technologies to project her onto a stage so 183 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: that she will behave the way that they want her 184 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: to behave. UM. It's not a very good episode, UM, 185 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: but you know the concept. You know, it's definitely what's 186 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: happening here. And you know, we've heard so much about 187 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: how dangerous and unsafe it is for women and black 188 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: women in particular in the music industry, and so I 189 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: have no doubt that there are plenty of the executives 190 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: who would be all about, you know, how can we 191 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: just make money off of this person and not have 192 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: who they actually are getting the way of our money. 193 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: Some musicians, like Anderson Pok don't want to read it 194 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: up for executives or estate executors to sort out in 195 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: the event of his death. Last year, the musician got 196 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: a tattoo on his forearm reading, when I'm gone, please 197 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: don't release any postthumous albums or song with my name attached. 198 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: Those were just demos and never intended to be heard 199 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: by the public. He debuted this tattoo in August, just 200 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: a few months after the Late Princess previously unreleased album 201 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to America was posthumously released. While the album earned 202 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: critical praise, I really can't say if the artist who 203 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: died without a will and was so notoriously protective of 204 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: ownership over his music and likeness that he changed his 205 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: name to an unpronounceable symbol from three to two thousand 206 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: would have wanted this album to see the light of day. 207 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: You talk about all these different black artists who have 208 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: taken great steps to avoid their likeness being used in 209 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: these ways after death, you know, including Anderson pox tattoo. 210 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: That's like, you know, if I die, please do not 211 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: use my likeness or release any songs that were not 212 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: meant to be released to the public. Do you think 213 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: that there is this like that the society idle expectation 214 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: that black artists specifically are just sort of there to 215 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: be mined for their creativity for entertainment and profit even 216 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: in death, and that like, specifically that we as black 217 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: folks are just expected to be these never ending wells 218 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: of profit generating creativity just forever, and like technology would 219 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: certainly like facilitate that absolutely. Okay, So there's this um 220 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: great music journalist named Simon Reynolds who actually coined the 221 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: term ghost slavery when talking about this topic. UM, and 222 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: that's you know what slavery is, right. It was created 223 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: for uh in America. It was created um to enslave 224 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: mostly African people, um, but also indigenous people, UM, you know, 225 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: in order to work for free and to build their wealth. 226 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: And so absolutely this is just another extension of that. 227 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: You know, I do believe that um. You know, black 228 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: musicians and entertainers have been the people who have been 229 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: able to kind of bring through, um a bit of 230 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: these white supremacist layers that exist in this country that 231 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: this country was founded on. UM. But they only want 232 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: you to be able to do that to a certain extent. UM, 233 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: and especially if you start to become political or if 234 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: you start to become a problem in any way that 235 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: could jeopardize, um, for one, white supremacy or uh, you know, 236 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: any of the structures that are in place. You get 237 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: a little too mouthy, a little too um upi um. 238 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: As a black person, of course, they want to put 239 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: you back in their in their place. So I do 240 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: feel like if you know they as long as the 241 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: music is bringing profit, UM, there won't be a problem. 242 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: But if there is a way um to control black 243 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: artists as much as possible, that's what's gonna happen. You know, 244 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: We've seen it in these three sixty deals. We've seen 245 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: it um in so many different ways UM in the 246 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: music industry. And that is what I think. That's kind 247 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: of why really honest over like, why why would I 248 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: stay here this? You know, you can't even make money 249 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: in the same way you have to be on the road. 250 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: You have to do all these different things as as 251 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: artists in order to maintain your integrity and to make money. UM. 252 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: It's just a lot more difficult today, um to be 253 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: able to do that. So yeah, I mean I think 254 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: people are starting to understand that and starting to come 255 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: up with other ways to protect themselves. UM. I don't 256 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: think a tattoo is gonna do it. UM. I hope 257 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: Anderson Pack has another plan, um, like a will print. 258 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: Super Fans myself very much included pans a Super Bowl 259 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen halftime show when it was announced that 260 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: justin Timberlake was going to perform with a Prince hologram, 261 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: because Prince specifically said that he did not want to 262 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: be brought back to life as a hologram when he 263 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: was asked about it in an interview with Guitar World, 264 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: Prince said, certainly not. That is the most demonic thing imaginable. 265 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: Everything is as it is and as it should be. 266 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: If I was meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we 267 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: would have lived in the same age. The whole virtual 268 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: reality thing, it is really demonic, and I am not 269 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: a demon. Also, what they did with that Beatles song, 270 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: manipulating John Lennon's voice to have him singing from across 271 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: the grave that will never happen to me. To prevent 272 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: that kind of thing from happening is another reason why 273 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: I want artistic control. So Prince absolutely did not want 274 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: to be a hologram. And what's even worse is that 275 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: Prince didn't even really seem to like justin timber Lake. 276 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: The two had a whole history of making shady digs 277 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: at each other while Prince was still alive. So bringing 278 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: Prince back as a hologram against his wishes to jam 279 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: with the musician, he didn't even really like just seem 280 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: like adding insult to injury. Now, in the end, the 281 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: super Bowl halftime show didn't technically use a hologram. It 282 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: was more of a projection of Prince performing on a 283 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: screen paired up alongside Justin's performance, and I think that 284 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: was the problem with Prince. Prince also spoke out quite 285 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: a bit um about you know how he thought holograms 286 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: were demonic, that he would never want that for his life, 287 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: and said that this is never gonna happen to me. 288 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: But you know, we did see that performance with Justin 289 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: timber Lake at the super Bowl. Would is supposed to 290 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: be a tribute um? And I think it really was 291 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be a hologram. And I think if not 292 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: for the outcry of the public, because the public did 293 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: know that Prince didn't want that, that they kind of 294 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: maybe changed it to something else. Um. You know, we 295 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: still saw a projection of Prince, but it wasn't quite hologram. Um. 296 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: But you know, when the estate has control over your likeness, 297 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: they can do whatever they want, you know, unless you're 298 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: explicitly in your will saying this is what this isn't 299 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: what you want. And Prince died intestate, so you know, 300 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: they have complete control, um, his estate to do whatever 301 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: they want to do with his image. And so that's 302 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: why you see these commercials with his music in that 303 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: you never saw before. You you see people being able 304 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: to go to Paisley Park, which he would never want, 305 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: you know. So there's just so many things, um that 306 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: can happen to you once you're dead. And you know, 307 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: we've been looking at it from the perspective of you know, celebrities, 308 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: but I think this is definitely something that's gonna start 309 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: impacting our regular day to day lives, uh in the 310 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: near future as well. Yeah, let's talk about that. So 311 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: in your piece, you you bring up you argue that 312 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: the announcement that Facebook flash meta if you want to 313 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: say that, like their whole argument or their whole announcement 314 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: about the metaverse. Do you think that the vibe is 315 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: that they want that are are sort of tech overlords, 316 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: want to be able to reproduce and reanimate anyone famous 317 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: or non famous, anyone anywhere, and that that will be 318 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: a common, a common you know, technological advancement available to 319 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: every in our tech future. Do you think that that's 320 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 1: like what they're after? I mean, I think that is 321 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: just a thing that happens when the technology is available. 322 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: Um so, you know, especially when people like Mark Zuckerberg 323 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: and the rest of our tech overlords are concerned about 324 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: profit or like we've seen you know, several uh former 325 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: Facebook employees coming forward and sharing damning information showing that 326 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: Facebook is a company slash meta is a company that 327 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: is for profits over people every single time. This is 328 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: just something that could happen as a result of that. 329 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: You know, you provide the technology, it's gonna happen. It's 330 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: just like you create a platform where people can express 331 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: their opinions. There's gonna be harassment. You know, there's gonna 332 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: be racism, there's gonna be terrorism, there's gonna be all 333 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: these other things. And so you know, if you're not 334 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: actively preventing that from happening, then a course it's gonna happen. 335 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: You're giving people the space to do to do what 336 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: people do. In the wake of the racial justice protests 337 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: all around the globe after the murder of George Floyd, 338 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: an unarmed black man killed by police, Change dot Org 339 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: and the George Floyd Foundation created a three D hologram 340 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: of the late George Floyd to be projected on the 341 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: Confederate monuments in the South. George Floyd's brother Rodney Floyd said, 342 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: since the death of my brother George, his face has 343 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: been seen all over the world. The hologram will allow 344 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: my brother's face to be seen as a symbol for 345 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: change in places where changes needed the most. I had 346 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: the chance to see the projection Richmond, and it really 347 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: was powerful. So holograms can be a way for a 348 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: family to heal and grieve and turn their loss into 349 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: something larger. But when someone's likeness becomes a symbol in 350 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: this way, it's not always empowering and respectful, and also 351 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: opens up the possibility that their likeness could be used 352 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: in offensive ways. For instance, Floyd E's is a collection 353 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: of jokey n f t s that depict pixelated images 354 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: of George Floyd with red eyes. Have co opted his 355 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: image seemingly to intentionally create outrage. We we've seen this 356 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: recently with George Floyd. You know, he was celebritized UM 357 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: in his death and just his image has been I 358 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: think one of the most exploited in in recent history 359 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: UM and for him for his image to go on 360 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: a hologram tour of the South to all of these 361 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: former Confederate statue locations UM, you know by and that 362 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: was you know, something that was supported by his family. 363 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 1: His family was behind that, along with change dot org UM. 364 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: And so I just think when people are grieving UM, 365 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: whether it's an icon that you loved, UM or you 366 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: know a dear loved one, a friend or family member 367 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: that you love, like, people find ways to grieve, and 368 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: you know, virtual reality, augmented reality, these are becoming more 369 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: and more available in a four ruble for everyday people. UM. 370 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: I know, I have an Oculus that was given to 371 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: me by HBO um PR during Lovecraft Countries run, they 372 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: had some activations UM in in the Oculus world VR 373 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: world UM that they wanted press to see and they 374 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: did a concert, a hologram concert. The point is that 375 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: they want this to be a regular situation. UM. They 376 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: want everybody to have an Oculus, especially at Facebook just 377 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: bought oculus UM, you know shortly shortly after UM HBO 378 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: did all those activate activations in Oculus UM. And so 379 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: now you have to sign in with your Facebook account 380 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: in order to to use that UM. So this is 381 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: definitely something that is going to be available to a 382 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: great deal of people. Um, and you can create avatars, 383 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: and so who's to say somebody won't create an avatar 384 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: based on their loved one, you know. Um, And I 385 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: think you know, we really have to decide, like whose 386 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: life is the most important? Um? Is it? You know? 387 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: The wishes of the person who is now dead or 388 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: the person who's still alive and wants to grieve and 389 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: needs to grieve, And you know, however they choose to grieve, 390 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, should be okay, I mean that's it's uh, 391 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: definitely something that we should all be thinking about. So 392 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: not just musicians and not just with tattoos, Like we 393 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: need to start putting this in our wills, like don't 394 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: use my image, um in any of these ways. Brook 395 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: is right that this is actually a thing that we 396 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: will probably be seeing more and more of. Entertainment lawyer 397 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: Brian Tuck wrote about this extensively. He writes, expect a 398 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: lot more of this in the future. Look at the 399 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: trends and how Hollywood, where major studios crank out the 400 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: same or similar blockbuster projects one after the next. The 401 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: major studios by and large are not risk takers. They 402 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: want bankable stars who better than a superstar from yesterday 403 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: that can be completely controlled via voice acting and digital rendering. 404 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: This digital actor will never show up to work late, 405 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: get arrested for public drunkenness, or be involved in any 406 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: scandal of the types that we've seen in recent years 407 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: that cause an entire production to stop. It is highly 408 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: likely that these digital resurrections or recreations will absolutely become commonplace. 409 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: It's such an interesting peek into kind of a bleak 410 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: tech future. Like a big part of what we talked 411 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: about on this show is like imagining what are collective 412 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: futures will look like with technology, and some of it 413 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: is very beautiful, but some of it is very bleak. 414 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: And so this idea of being ready for whatever bleak 415 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: thing will be the next iteration of our tech future, 416 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: I think is a really really good kind of like 417 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: cautionary point. And I also think, you know, talking about 418 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: how Facebook bought Oculus, there was a time where Facebook's 419 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: motto was move fast and break things right. Like their 420 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: entire thing was just like keep going, keep going, move, move, move, 421 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: don't stop and think about the ramifications, don't stop and 422 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: think about the precedents that you're setting, don't stop and 423 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: think about how this thing will be misused or can 424 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: be you know, can result in real world harms. Just 425 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: keep moving, just move fast. And I wonder if it's if, 426 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: if that attitude, if that climate, has really got us 427 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: in a place where we are making so many new 428 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: technological advances and then normalizing them work or making them commonplace, 429 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: but not stopping to think about what they will what 430 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: kind of future they will actually create. Like in your 431 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: piece you use this great Prince quote. If I was 432 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: meant to jam with Duke Ellington, we would have lived 433 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: at the same time. And I wonder is there an 434 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: element here of focusing so much of what we you know, 435 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: could do or can do that nobody is pumping the 436 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: brakes and thinking what should we be doing? Is this right? 437 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,719 Speaker 1: Is this going to make for a better, brighter future 438 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: or a more harmful, more bleak future? Exactly exactly. And 439 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's the same with concerts. You know, 440 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 1: we should have gone out to see Whitney Houston in concert. 441 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,239 Speaker 1: If we did it, Wow, we really messed up. You know, 442 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: that should make us be even more vigilant about going 443 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: to see Beyonce, going to see Stevie Wonder, going to 444 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: see all these other people that we love who are 445 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: icons um while we have the chance. That's that's what 446 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: life does. Life teaches us, you know, lessons, And the 447 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: point is not to create a world where we didn't 448 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, miss the boat. It's to learn from the 449 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: mistakes and to try better, you know, with with the 450 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: information that you have now. So I mean, I definitely 451 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: think it is it's teaching us a dangerous lesson that 452 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, technology, we can use technology um to um. 453 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: You know, a race history, and that's not the point. 454 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: The point should not be to a race history. It 455 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: should be to learn from history and grow from history 456 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: and do better. UM. And I think you know, we 457 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: see you know, someone like Kanye West who created this 458 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: hologram of Kim Kardashian's um father who's been passed away 459 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: for for decades now, um, and to have him show 460 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: up at Kim's forty a birthday party and tell her 461 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: all these things um that you know you may want 462 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: a father to tell you UM. But it's just like 463 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: he isn't actually saying these words. UM. You know, this 464 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: isn't he has no you know, concepts. Perhaps, I mean, 465 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: we don't really know, but I mean like this hologram 466 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: definitely has no concept of what's going on in the 467 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: present world. Um, you know, has no idea about you know, 468 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: her children or any of that. Like, it was just 469 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: so odd and you know, personally, I would have divorced 470 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: him off of this alone. But you know that's just 471 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: I definitely see us creating holograms of our dead loved 472 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: ones to be at our weddings and to be at 473 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: the birth of our children and all of these things. Um, 474 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: you know, And I'm just I just wonder if that 475 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: is actually I'm not a psychologist in any way, but 476 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: I do wonder what the psychological impact of those things 477 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: will be. Is that healing or is that causing more damage? 478 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: I feel like all the Black Mirror episodes tell us 479 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: this is actually gonna cause more damage because this isn't 480 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: the real person. Like you want the real person here. 481 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: The real person is not here. So this fake stand 482 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: in is not doing it, and they're not gonna do it. 483 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: And the point is to learn how to move through grief, 484 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: how to expand through grief, how to um increase the 485 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: amount of love that you put out into the world 486 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: as a result of the grief. Um you know, so, uh, 487 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: I am concerned. I am really concerned I After a 488 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: company called Khalita created a hologram of Kim Kardashian's late father, 489 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: they said they were flooded with request to do the 490 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: same for regular, though presumably wealthy people asking for hologram 491 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: recreations of their loved ones. And companies like Deep Nostalgia, 492 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: which uses AI to create digital renderings of loved ones 493 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: that smile and move, are already incredibly popular with people 494 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: who want to feel more connected to their lost loved ones. 495 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: So could this be a useful way to process grief 496 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: in the past. In a piece for The Fall called 497 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: Deep Fakes, Dead Relatives and Digital Resurrection, Dr Elaine Cassette, 498 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: psychologist and the author of All the Ghosts in the Machines, 499 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: says that right now tech is ushered in new territory 500 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: of collapsing the dead and the living together. Tech companies 501 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: are the keepers of this information with a one size 502 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: fits all memorialization mechanism. They've got ideas about what's good 503 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: for you, and grief and bereavement are baked into the design. 504 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: She says, I've been in therapy for a very long time, 505 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: and one of my therapists kind of repeated mantras to 506 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: me is there are no shortcuts to grieving. There's no 507 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: shortcuts to processing. And so you know, if there was 508 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: a like a technology enabled future that allowed me to 509 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: experience things that that I'm like I never got to experience, 510 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: or you know, basically, I there's no shortcut to processing. 511 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: And so if I was able to have a hologram 512 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: of you know, the perfect solution, like a perfect recreation 513 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: of what I wish I always had, I am then 514 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: not doing the work of processing the fact that I 515 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: never got that in reality, right like, and there is 516 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: no shortcut to process, and you just have to move 517 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: through it and make peace with it. And I guess 518 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: I wonder if we're enabling the if technology is enabling 519 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: us to think of things as shortcuts, Like if you 520 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: didn't appre if you didn't appreciate Whitney Houston when she 521 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: was here, and or worse, you got on the pop 522 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: culture bandwagon of mocking her and and like mocking her humanity, 523 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't get to have a future enabled by 524 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: technology where you can go see her any time you 525 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: want for as long as you live. Maybe you shouldn't 526 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: be processing why it is that you treated her that 527 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: way when she was living. And I wonder if this 528 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: technology is building in this this the shortcuts for not 529 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: having to do that deep work of processing what it 530 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: is we do while we're here to people who are 531 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: actual humans. Absolutely, absolutely, And you know it's interesting because 532 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: I also I write fiction, you know, and a part 533 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: of my process is reimagination. You know. I have a 534 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: whole novel that like reimagines the ending of slavery in 535 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: a way that is empowering for black people, in a 536 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: way that sets us off on a different future, as 537 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: a way of processing the ways in which we are 538 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: existing in this present terrible future, um, as a result 539 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: of slavery that has not been addressed or repaired or 540 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, and it's now trying to be you know, 541 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: by these um uh right wing extremists, you know, being 542 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: erased from our history and from you know, being taught 543 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: in schools. Um. So I'm just you know, I I 544 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: understand um the ideology behind you know, how reimaginations can 545 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: help process and help heal and move through grief. Um 546 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering what the limitations are, you know, I'm 547 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, you know, what is I think our tech 548 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: overlord should be thinking what is the worst that could 549 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: happen and putting up safeguards right now, and they're not 550 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: going to do that. That's such a good point and 551 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: we we I feel like we've already seen how technology 552 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: is being misused if you don't put in safeguards for 553 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: the reality of how a lot of people will probably 554 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: to use it. Like you know, we have deep fake technology. 555 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: I've seen very interesting, uh useful interpretations of deep deep 556 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: fakes or artists who like make deep feakes of Mark 557 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg taking accountability for the harmony it's caused, for instance. 558 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: But we already know that how deep fake technology is 559 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: being used is to harass and abuse, marginalize people, women, people, 560 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: women of color. And so this idea that we can 561 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: just quickly put out new technology that's going to completely 562 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: change and alter how our society understands how it works 563 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: and not put in those safeguards or even really stop 564 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: to think about the president They said, I think it's 565 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: really a problem. Yes, absolutely, so I have to ask, 566 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: you know, in reading your piece, it's obvious that this 567 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: piece is sort of like a love letter to Whitney 568 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: Houston and her legacy. What is her? Do you have 569 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: a favorite Whitney Houston song or moment that that you 570 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: want to share with us. M That might be a 571 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: hard question because there's so many to pick from there 572 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: really are. I mean, I feel like I want to 573 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: dance with somebody. Um And I know she was. It 574 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: was really hurt my my heart to hear how she 575 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: was criticized for this song, um by you know, like 576 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: Al Sharpton and and you know other prominent black people 577 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: back when this was released. But I remember my dad 578 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: had a VHS of just like Whitney Houston videos and 579 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: stuff like that. UM. And I remember as a kid 580 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: watching that video and she was so happy, and you 581 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: know I did in the hair, you know, like it 582 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: was just so beautiful, and I just thought she was 583 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: the most beautiful woman. And I was like, yes, how 584 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: nice would that be to dance with somebody who loves you? 585 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: Like how ideal? Like I just I remember so vividly 586 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: as a kid, being just like so enthralled um by 587 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: this video. And my dad also had this the red 588 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: her original record, you know where she's got the um. 589 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: I think her hair is pulled back, but it looked 590 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: like she had just like a low like shaved head. 591 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: UM And I just like, yeah, all you see is 592 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: her stunning face and I'm like, wow, this is the 593 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: most beautiful woman. Like, I just I remember being so 594 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: touched by her music so early on in my life. 595 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: I mean, The Bodyguard was my favorite movie. I wanted 596 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: to be an actress because of the Bodyguard. Like, I mean, 597 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: there's just so much um waiting to exhale. Is like, 598 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: hands down, the best soundtrack that has ever existed to 599 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: a movie. Um, you know, She's just she was so 600 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: gifted and she was so talented. And then when I 601 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: found out later on that she has literally produced like 602 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: all the teen girl movies like The Princess Diaries, and 603 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: I mean just she she did so much that shaped 604 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: uh my childhood. Um, including Cinderella. I mean that you know, 605 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: we definitely that was appointment television. We stopped everything as 606 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: a family to watch Cinderella and to watch Brandy, who 607 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: I also loved so much, be the first black Cinderella, 608 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: and to have Whitney Houston be the Godmother. I mean 609 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: it just there are so many things, um, and so 610 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: many of those songs as well. Like I just I 611 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: remember always having this kind of countercultural mind as a kid, 612 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: and just these ideas, these feminist ideas that I didn't 613 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: know what the words were, how to describe them, but 614 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: like I just felt like Whitney Houston in her music 615 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: and definitely in the music in Cinderella. Like it was 616 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: so much about, you know, just feeling empowered as a 617 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: woman and not taking the positions that we are put 618 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: in in society, UM, laying down, you know, to to 619 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: fight to be an individual and to use your own voice. 620 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: And so then to later find out that there were 621 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: so many ways that Whitney was not allowed to do 622 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: that was just very devastating, very hard um to to 623 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: hear an experience, and you know, it definitely gave me 624 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: um fuel to make sure that I and the people 625 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: around me as much as possible, UM, we're given the 626 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: space to be who they are and to be celebrated 627 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: and supported for who they are, UM, so that nothing 628 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: like this would ever happen. It's a tragedy that we 629 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: lost to Whitney Houston, and it was so unnecessary. We 630 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: didn't it didn't have to be this way. UM. We 631 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: could have made a society that was not queer phobic, UM, 632 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: that was not lesbiphobic, UM, that was not anti black 633 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: that was not misogynistic. That would have allowed Whitney Houston 634 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: to thrive. Um, and we you know, we all can 635 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: play a role in creating that world so that it 636 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: doesn't happen to another person. That's so beautiful and so right. 637 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: I mean, Whitney taught me that nothing is worth living 638 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: your authentic life and living your authentic truth exactly. That's beautiful, Brooke. 639 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: Is there anything that I have not asked or have 640 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: not brought up that you want to make sure it 641 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: gets included? Um? I think that was pretty much it 642 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: I got in my dig about Mark Zuckerberg and just 643 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: why people accomplished, like every chance I can to just 644 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: be like fuck justin Timberlake, Like I just want to 645 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: say that Zuckerberg can go to hell, Like that's it. 646 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: I think that's I think we're good. I do love that, 647 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: like as a culture we all kind of collectively or 648 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: like you know what, fuck fuck justin Timberlake. I like 649 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: him whereever, Like you can't come back from that, like 650 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: it's not paid reparations to Janet or like just be 651 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: quiet forever. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, 652 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: or just want to say hi, you can be just 653 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: at hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find 654 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are 655 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Brigittad. 656 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss native Jonathan 657 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer 658 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm 659 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, 660 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts 661 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, 662 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.