1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I Want justice. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace available now only on Fox Nation. 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert dead, But is her murder part of a 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: much more complex series of murders? Of of course, Young 5 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: Women Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened to a 6 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 1: twenty four year old young girl? You know my daughter 7 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: is about to turn thirteen. This is only eleven years 8 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: older than that. First of all, I want you to 9 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Michelle Segona at Crime 10 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: Watch Daily, not a day goodbye that Mary Gilbert doesn't 11 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: long for an answer to the death of her twenty 12 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: three year old daughter, Shannon. If you pick up the 13 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: phone and call the investigators or the detective that's been 14 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: assigned to you so you get called back, No, they 15 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: won't talk to me. Shannon had traveled from New Jersey 16 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: to Oak Beach, Long Island, New or Gilgo Beach for 17 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: a day. Later that night, she was seen running through 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: the neighborhood in a blind panic. Gilbert family attorney John 19 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: Ray has lounged over seven hundred hours on the case, 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: tracing her steps. That night, she runs out of his home. 21 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: She calls nine one one. She runs the neighborhood of 22 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: knocking on doors, and whenever someone comes to the door 23 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: who attempts to call the police but not take her in, 24 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: she runs. And that's the last anyone's heard of her. 25 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: Talk to me about what happens. Talk to me about 26 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: a phone call your daughter made nine on one call 27 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: for help, lasting twenty three man twenty dree man. Can 28 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: you imagine the pain that Shannon's mother endures her daughter 29 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: on the phone with a cell phone twenty three minutes, 30 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: running from door to door, screaming in fear, screaming that 31 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: she's afraid she's going to die, And she did. Just 32 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: twenty four years old. Shannon Gilbert loses her life. Joining 33 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: me an all star panel to break it down and 34 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: put it back together. Doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical Alexander 35 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: joining me out of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation, 36 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: Field Guide, Psychoanalyst to the Stars. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining 37 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: me from Beverly Hills. You can find her at doctor 38 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. James sheld At twenty seven years 39 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: Metro major case and SWAT now lawyer Shia Lapointe, Genetic genealogist, 40 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: the so called gene hunter. Also with me special guest, 41 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: the attorney for the family of the victim, Shannon Gilbert. 42 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: John Ray is with us, but first straight out to 43 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: our Crime online dot Com investigative reporters Dave mc investigative 44 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: reporter and Ellen Kilauren. You know, when you look at 45 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: it like a puzzle, Eka, Ellen Kilorm, Shannon Gilbert fits 46 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: in to a much bigger picture. But I want to 47 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: start with her. Where was her body found? Nancy Shannon 48 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: Gilbert's body was found not long not far from where 49 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: she disappeared. That it was a year and a half 50 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: before she was found dead. She had disappeared in May 51 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: of two thousand and ten in Oak Beach and was 52 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: never seen again. Do we know? Do we know? The 53 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: cod cause of death aka the official cause of death 54 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: is inconclusive. Authorities had been saying for years that they 55 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: believe what probably had and which she ran into the 56 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: marsh where she was found, became this oriented, became exhausted 57 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: and drowned in the sand and water in the marsh. Okay, 58 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: I've got a really hard time believing that because you know, 59 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: shall not help me out here, k I'm not doubting 60 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: your expert crack reporting. But shall not. You got a 61 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: woman twenty four years old on the phone screaming I'm 62 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: gonna die. Help me, help me, help me, help me, 63 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: beating on people's doors. If they don't take her in, 64 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: she runs. And you want to tell me she went 65 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: out into the marsh which is not over her head, 66 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: and then just says hey with it, and sits down 67 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: and dies. That is not what happened. Shall not. No, 68 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: that's not what happened. It doesn't make any sense. This 69 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: case should have been treated as a homicide from the 70 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: very beginning, and that should have been the default position, 71 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: but unfortunately it was not. You know, I just am thinking, 72 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: how in the hey they could even say that that 73 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: her cause of death she just sat down in the 74 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: mar and died. Marsh is a mixture of sand, earth, foliage, 75 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: and water. And I find it very difficult to believe. 76 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle dupris renowned medical examiner joining out of South 77 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: Carolina and author. Doctor Dupre, I'm not buying that for 78 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: one minute. Why are they even trying to tell me 79 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: that that she died because she got exhausted and sat 80 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: down in the marsh, and and and drowned. I don't 81 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: believe that for one minute they could look at her lungs, 82 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: doctor dupres and determine if she drowned or not. What, Nancy, 83 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: You've got excellent points. Normally you certainly wouldn't think that. 84 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: And I don't think that she just sat down and died. 85 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: She may have sat down, she may have passed out, 86 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: she may have m she may have hailed marsh muddy 87 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: gooey water. But yeah, sure, absolutely right. Why can we 88 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: not look at the autopsy and tell that's why we 89 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: do an autopsy? Hold on, I got I thought here, 90 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: and I don't want to lose it. Even a year later, 91 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: her body, as Ellen Klaurine just told us, was found 92 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: not far from what she was like spotted bamming on doors, 93 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: begging for help twenty three minute nine one one call. 94 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: So obviously she died that night. But are you telling 95 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: me that, one year later, doctor Dupree, they cannot look 96 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: at her lungs and determine ditch she drown or not. No, 97 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm saying. You can't. Yes, we should 98 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: be able to do an autopsy, and we should be 99 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: able to tell. It's going to depend. Of course, on 100 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: the condition of the body. It always does. But chances 101 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: are we can take microscopic sections of lung tissue and 102 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: we should be able to tell. Okay, whoa when you 103 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: say we can take microscopic sections of brain tissue, how 104 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: do you do that? Is? Do you cut it with 105 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: a nine I'm talking about the lungs. You open the 106 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: body up in a ta bone, right a t you 107 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: open the cut. Okay, you get the lungs out. When 108 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: you say you take a piece of tissue, what do 109 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: you do it with? You pluck it off with tweezers 110 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: or do you slice it off? How do you do 111 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: that depends on the organ it is. With the lungs, 112 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: we'll take usually a scalpel and we'll take section small 113 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: sections of those lungs and they slice it off like 114 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: a knife with a knife. Yes, yes, then you put 115 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: that under the microscope. Just you don't just look at 116 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: the lungs like you're looking at a basketball. How big 117 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: are the lungs, doctor Dupree, Well, the lungs are about 118 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: the size of your forearm. Okay, So you don't just 119 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: look at them with a naked eye. You slice off 120 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: a piece, as you said, with a scalpel, and you 121 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: put that under a microscope. Correct, Well, we fix it 122 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: in formal one, which is a preservative, and then we 123 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,679 Speaker 1: put it into a wax processing machine and we cut 124 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: slices of that and attach that to a microscopic slide 125 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: and look at under the microspite. So long story short, Yes, 126 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: you do put it under a microscope. Now wait a minute. 127 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: Remember I'm just a lawyer. You're the doctor. Now hold on. 128 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: You look under the microscope, and if you're looking to 129 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: see if she drowned, what would you expect to find. Well, 130 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: if she drowned, we may or may not be able 131 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: to see evidence of that, but we should be able 132 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: to see debris like the marsh, muddy water, something like that. 133 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: In the lungs, we can tell us the lungs are congested, 134 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: meaning they have fluid in them. They should have air 135 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and not fluid. So you can tell the difference because 136 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: you can tell. Let's just say somebody dies at sea, 137 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: but when they are autopsy, do you find out it's 138 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: fresh water in their lungs, so they didn't diet. See, 139 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: they died somewhere else like a bathtub, and we're put 140 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: at sea. My point is, can you analyze the debris 141 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: within the lungs and tell me was it marsh muddy, 142 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: marsh water? Was it something else? And was it to 143 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: the extent that she died of drowning as opposed to 144 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: something else? Yes, again answer It depends on the totality 145 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: of circumstances and the condition of that body. But those 146 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: are exactly the kinds of questions that autopsies are designed 147 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: to answer. We are talking about the death of Shannon Gilbert, 148 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: just twenty four years old, and her murder is just 149 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: the tip of the Iceberg Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 150 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: Everyone you are listening to crime stories. I'm Nancy Grace, 151 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us. 152 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: What's you take a listen to our friends at Picks eleven. 153 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: This is Mary Murphy. Let's assume he said, Robert Moses 154 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: Cause Ocean Parkway. He's traveling westbound. We followed retired Chief 155 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: Dominic Vrone back to Gilgo. So he pull over, pop 156 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: the suv, pull out the body and just throw it 157 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: as far as he could, head first into the bramble. 158 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: Verne was here in December twenty ten as command under 159 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: of Suffolk County Detectives when the bodies of four Slane 160 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: sex workers were discovered at Gilgo Beach, some of the 161 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: yearlier murders. They were picked up in New York City. 162 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: In fact, the NYPD had investigated the disappearance of the 163 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 1: first victim, Melissa Barthelomy. She vanished from the Bronx in 164 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. Her unknown killer even used Barthelomy's 165 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: cell phone near Penn Station to taunt her family, who 166 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: spoke in twenty eleven, Melissa's a little sister. That's how 167 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: he started out the conversation, Melissa, Melissa's little sister, and 168 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: she answered, yeah, it was a very simplistic, hurtful call. Wow, 169 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: I'm want to go straight back out to Ellen Colaurin, 170 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: investigative reporter with crime online dot Com ek So, Shannon Gilbert, 171 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: the twenty four year old young lady were talking about today, 172 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: is one of how many dead bodies along Gilgo Beach 173 00:10:53,679 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: eleven including Shannons eleven including Shannon. Okay, back to you, 174 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: James shell Nutt twenty seventy years Metro major case Now lawyer, 175 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: you do agree with me. Unlike many defense attorneys, it's 176 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: got to be the same killer. They're all buried along 177 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: the same stretch of beach. You'll go beach, and I 178 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe that one killer places 179 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: the body there and just by straight coincidence, or as 180 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: my son John Names says, on coincidence, somebody else comes 181 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: and finds the same exact promote area to hide their 182 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: dead bodies. Of course it's the same killer. Shell nutt. 183 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: Of course it is that. There's no doubt it's the 184 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: same killer. There were a lot of similarities to all 185 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: of these bodies were on the same side of the road. 186 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: Some of these bodies were within one hundred two hundred 187 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: yards of each other. Most of the bodies were within sight, 188 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: so if you're standing along the side of the road, 189 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: you can look down the road and see the portions 190 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: of the roadway or side of the roadway that these 191 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: bodies were buried. Several of the bodies were buried in 192 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: a burlap sack. Other similarities involved. There is no doubt 193 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: that it was a serial killer or serial killers that 194 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: placed the bodies there. I think it's one killer. And 195 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: you know why what is it, doctor Bethany Marshall. Nobody 196 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 1: can keep their yap shup. Here's an example. Remember all 197 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories about the setup of Orenthal James Simpson 198 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: O J. Simpson, that it was all a setup to 199 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: get him. Why why do we want to get OJ 200 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: Simpson other than he's a double killer. But there's no 201 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: way that all those police officers could have framed OJ 202 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: Simpson and then kept quiet about it for all these years, 203 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: because how many million dollar book deals would they have 204 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: if they talk. So I think there's one killer, and 205 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: it's definitely a man, and he killed all these women, 206 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. I think so because when you look at 207 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: the mindset of the serial killer, what you see in 208 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: terms of victim selection is availability. That these are young 209 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: women out and about in society. You see vulnerability that 210 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: they are by themselves. Shannon Gilbert was so vulnerable knocking 211 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: on people's doors nobody would take her in on the 212 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: phone for twenty three minutes, incredibly vulnerable, and then desirability. 213 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: Serial killers have a victim type. So if you start 214 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: to speak to their being just one perpetrator, look at 215 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: all these women. They're young, they're beautiful, they're vulnerable, they're available, 216 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: some of them sex workers. So they are like isolated 217 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: from society and they're rights targets. What about it, Ak 218 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: Ellen Claurin joining me from crime online dot Com. Ak, 219 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: what do we know about the physicality of the various victims? 220 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: The eleven women? Are they all? Why? We know that 221 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: they're all women, different races. Not all of the victims 222 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: have been identified. That's one thing. That's one thing to 223 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: keep in mind. There is one victim who is a 224 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: John Doe. They all of the others are women, and 225 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: one small child who police believe was killed with her mother. 226 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: Oh lord, that's right. That's Ryan Ellen. Complete deviation from 227 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: the typical mo emodus operandi method of operation. You know, 228 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that when you look at serial killers, 229 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: for instance, I looked at all all the all the 230 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: victims of serial killer Ted Bundy, and the startling similarity 231 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: of their physicality, the way they looked is amazing. It's 232 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: shocking how closely they resembled each other. So I'm guessing 233 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: the lot of these women will look physically similar to 234 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: each other. And also, I don't know why, but we 235 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: learned that doctor Bethany Marshall, very often serial killers do 236 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: not cross racial boundaries. They will murder within their own race, 237 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: which is very interesting to me. I don't know what 238 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: it means, but I know it to be true. Well, 239 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: even though they put tremendous energy into their crimes, I 240 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: think they're also kind of lazy, scared, and rejection prone, 241 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: and because of that they croll for victims very in 242 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: their their own group where there's availability and access. There's 243 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: profound research about serial killers where that suggests that every 244 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: single one was rejected by their mother. Now we know 245 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: that there are a brain different Bethany, Bethany, Bethany, It's true. 246 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: I know I shouldn't, but I'm a psychologue. I really 247 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: wish you wouldn't because you know why, I am the 248 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: twins and I now I have to think about every 249 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: move I make. Is it going to turn them into 250 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: some crazy, deranged whatever. Thanks Bethany. That's something I can 251 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: think about tonight. But is a break in the case. Guys, 252 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to Mary Murphy 253 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: joining us from Picks eleven. The sub police commissioner said 254 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: the killer left a black belt at one of the 255 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: multiple scenes where bodies were dumped, with the initials HM 256 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: or wh on it. We believe that the belt was 257 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: handled by the suspect. A law enforcement source who worked 258 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: on the Gilgo beach case told me that the initials 259 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: embossed on the inside of the black belt are about 260 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: a half inch high, and he said the hand he 261 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: work looks like something you might have found done at 262 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: a shopping mall in the eighties or nineties. The initials 263 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: on the belt have caused a frenzy of speculation, with 264 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: some web sludes tying the initials to a friend of 265 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: Disgrace Chief James Burke. Burke went to prison in twenty 266 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: sixteen for beating up a drug addicted suspect who stole 267 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: a stash of porn and sex toys from the chief's 268 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: official police car. Burke was released last year. Well, it's 269 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: a plot thickening. Why I wondered did they weigh so 270 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: long cops to tell us that a belt? Were the 271 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: letters HM or WH depending on if you were looking 272 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: at it upside down? HM or WH was found to 273 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: sharel a point in joining me the gene hunter g 274 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: e ne genetic genealogist. After all this time, what's the 275 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: likelihood of getting DNA off that belt? Nancy, I believe 276 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: they still have a very high likelihood of being able 277 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: to get DNA off of that belt. It's not the 278 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: same as say, if you were trying to get DNA 279 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: off off of a body in a rape case, the 280 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: DNA if the belt was touched by them, the murderer, 281 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: the DNA very possibly still would be in there, on there. 282 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: And but how after all this time is it because 283 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: of the oil end of fingertip when you touch it, 284 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: it really has to be washed with what a soap 285 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: type substance to get that oil, which is really why 286 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: you have a fingerprint. Are you saying that could still 287 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: be on there? Yes, ma'am, it still can be on there. 288 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: It's it's trace DNA, and when you touch an object, 289 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: your DNA stays on that object. Of course, it would 290 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: depend on the elements where the belt was. I can't 291 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: help but feel that because of the advancements in DNA technology, 292 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: maybe they were able to process it with these new 293 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 1: methods and find more information. Oftentimes you have multiple DNA, 294 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: you know, it may have been the victims DNA and 295 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: the murderer's DNA, and it may have been difficult to 296 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: separate in the past, but with new technologies it's become 297 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: easier to do those things. And it's very possible that 298 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: that's why all of a sudden the belt has become important. 299 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace here, we have all worked so 300 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting 301 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: back against America's crime Wave, a brand new book. After 302 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put 303 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. You could pre 304 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: order now go to Crime online dot com. Pre order 305 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: now and know that portions of our proceeds goes to 306 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories 307 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Eleven people have lost their lives, all 308 00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: women and one child, all buried along a lonely stretch 309 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: of Gilgo Beach. But still the perp is unapprehended, even 310 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: calling one of the victim's families with the victim's cell phone. 311 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: On one occasion, her little sister picked it up and 312 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: it was traced back to the Penn Station area where 313 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: Madison Square Gardens is. That in itself, reveals a twisted, 314 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: twisted mindset not only murder one of eleven people, but 315 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: then call the victim's family from the victim's cell phone again. 316 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for 317 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: being with us. Is there a break in the case, 318 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: a belt with the initials WH or h M, which 319 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: could be either if you look at the belt upside 320 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: down with me an all star panel. But first, I 321 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: want to go to a very special guest joining us. 322 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: It's John Ray, and he is the lawyer for the 323 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: family of then twenty four year old Shannon Gilbert. John Ray, 324 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: you've put in literally hundreds of hours on this case. 325 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: Who do you think murdered these women? Well, there's a 326 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: number of possibilities, of course, but it's fairly clear that 327 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: there's more than one person. Shannon is running away. Well, yeah, 328 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: when Shannon's running away, she's saying on the we know 329 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: she said on the nine one one calls, they're trying 330 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: to kill me in the floral. We also know, by 331 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: the way that there are no lungs found, because only 332 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: her bones were found. And when you, I think you 333 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: had said before that she died that night, there's no 334 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: evidence that she died that night. She could have lived 335 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: for a long time. Nobody really knows, And that she 336 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: died in the marsh is absurd because or in the 337 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: way they say the police say she died, it's because 338 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: I walked that marsh. A year later, in at the 339 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: same time that Shannon would have walked. The water is 340 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: only inches deep. Where she's found, she's found laying down, 341 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: face up with her head on a bush, So none 342 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: of those things can be true. And certainly where she 343 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: was found, she's only thirty maybe thirty to fifty feet 344 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: away from the roadway to the Ocean Parkway. And on 345 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: the other side there are houses. You can see right 346 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: into their breakfast tables as you're having breakfast at that 347 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: time of the morning. So there's just no way she 348 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: just suddenly decided to drop dead. Of are agreed question 349 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: to you with me the lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family, 350 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 1: John Ray, who's devoted I'm sure over a thousand hours 351 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: to this case. By now, John Ray, you were saying 352 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: that you don't or she didn't necessarily die the night 353 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: that she was running calling nine one one. Are you 354 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: suggesting that she was held against her will for a 355 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: period of time and then killed. That's a real possibility. 356 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: And uh, there's strange evidence. There's a lot of evidence 357 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: that the public doesn't know. But I've you know, I've 358 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: glombed from our investigations and depositions. I've taken numerous depositions 359 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: of people in Oak Beach. And the long and short 360 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: is that, um, there could be It could very well 361 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: be she was held for a while before she finally disappeared. 362 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: When the police helicopters flew over the marsh, they were 363 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: unable to see her, so she might not have been 364 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: There is one, you know, one theory as well. Uh. 365 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: The some of the things that were found Shaddon's belongings 366 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: were uh, they didn't look like they had been in 367 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: the marsh very long at all, as opposed to Shaddon's body, 368 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: which was completely decomposed. So, I mean, there's there are 369 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: many more follow your theory three to its logical conclusion, 370 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: and is that more than one person is involved in 371 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: the death of these eleven people, all women, one child. 372 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: Is that your your theory? You think they're more than 373 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: there's more than one killer. Yeah, that's my theory. And 374 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: also it's it's nine nine women, one Asian male y, 375 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: a cross dresser and a child. And uh, and in 376 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: these cases as well, there could be very well, it's 377 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: what's entered into our investigation is a cultish element that 378 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: could be involved, which would then suggest more I mean, 379 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: what cultish element are you talking about? Well, there's uh, 380 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: you know, Mary, the mother of Shannon, was a practicing 381 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: which for twenty two years, and she had a lot 382 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: of connections in that area. UM and in fact, she 383 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: was living off of Shannon's earnings uh during that time. 384 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: So when Channa was alive, and there's a real possibility 385 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: that there's some connection there with the people who are 386 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: involved in that kind of us are practice, and I 387 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 1: find that that's getting to be outlandish. I mean, I'm 388 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: not saying it's something not to investigate, but to suggest 389 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: that these eleven people, and yes, one of them was 390 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: an Asian male cross dresser, you're absolutely correct to suggest 391 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: that a group of people would commit murder as part 392 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: of the I assume you're referring to the Wiccan beliefs. Yeah, 393 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: but I mean I really hard to believe. That's just 394 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: one angle. But but it's a lot of things are 395 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: hard to believe in this case, So you got to 396 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: they have to be pursued. Like to go with what's 397 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: it probable, what's not? What's possible? I mean, it's possible 398 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: that little Green men flew down from Mars and committed 399 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: the murders. It's possible. Is it probable? No, it's not. 400 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: And I find the proximity of her body's discovery to 401 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: where she was banging on doors to be a probitive. 402 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: It proves something too me to you. John Ray, renowned 403 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: lawyer who is working with the victims family, Shannon Gilbert's family. 404 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: How far from those doors she was banging on to 405 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: save her own life? How far from those doors was 406 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: her body found? Her body found about I would say 407 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: less than a mile away, on the other side of 408 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: the marsh from where the other victims were found. Okay, 409 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: let's analyze that, because that's hard evidence that you can't 410 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: get away with away from. James shell Night, twenty seven 411 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: years Metro Major k swat now lawyer shell Nut. What 412 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: does that tell you? Tells me that she did die 413 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: close to the night, if not the night she was 414 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: bamming on doors because somebody was chasing her. And then 415 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: they find her body less than a half a mile 416 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: that's a five minute walk from where she was bamming 417 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: on doors. Yeah, I agree. I thought that this world 418 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: put it definitely links back to everything that we know. 419 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: So for you know, there's been a lot of drama 420 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: surrounding the case in that police are not releasing a 421 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: lot of the vital information. Take a listen to our 422 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: friend James Ford at Picks eleven News. We are launching 423 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: a website. It's called gilgonews dot com, with the hope 424 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: that with its release the public will generate new tips 425 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: and new investigative leads. But the website has yet to work, 426 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: and there's been criticism of investigators development. For years, nine years, 427 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: the Suffolk County Police Department has covered up the fact 428 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: in this investigation. John Ray is the attorney for the 429 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: family of Shannon Gilbert. She was a sex worker whose 430 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: disappearance after leaving the home of a client in the 431 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: Gilgo area in twenty ten sparked the search that resulted 432 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: in so many bodies being found. Gilbert had called nine 433 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: on one at length the night she vanished. Release of 434 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: the tapes of that call was among many things blocked 435 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: by then police Chief James Burke and then District Attorney 436 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: Tom Spoda. Both men have now been convicted of crimes 437 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: unrelated to the Gilgo killings. New leaders say today's disclosures 438 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: show more openness, but they're still not releasing Shannon Gilbert's 439 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: nine one one tape. We don't think she never match 440 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: as many of the patterns of the Gilgo Beach homicides. 441 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: So was Shannon Gilbert's murder part of the work of 442 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: a serial killer? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a case 443 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: that has never been resolved? Are there other bodies? Are 444 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: there other victims? We're focusing today on Shannon Gilbert. You know, 445 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: I don't really understand why this is true. They has, 446 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, to Dave Mack joining me along with Ellen Klaurin, 447 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: both investigative reporters at Crime Online dot com. Dave Mac, 448 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: why is it that every time someone introduces this case, 449 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: they go a sex worker. You know, that little girl, 450 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: the little the child. That child wasn't a sex worker. 451 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: And very often, when you're talking about homicide cases or 452 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: any case, forget just homicide, you don't say, oh, I'm 453 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: Jackie Howard was a victim today and she's a radio producer, 454 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: because that doesn't factor into it. These women, no matter what, 455 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: are always tagged as a sex worker, as if somehow 456 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: that makes their lives less valuable. Yep, and Nancy, you know, 457 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: the sad reality of what you're playing out is I 458 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: went to the Gilgnews dot com website while you were 459 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: talking just to see how did they handle it well, 460 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, the first line is the story about Shannon Gilbert, 461 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: who says Shannon Gilbert Comma, a Craig's list escort, went 462 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: missing two ek Ellen Kilauren joining me. Ellen. What do 463 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: we know about the child that was buried with the 464 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: child's mother, Nancy. We know very little because we don't 465 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: have an identification on either of those victims. But there 466 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: we know that there were no the mother was dismembered, 467 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: the child was not. There were no visible signs of 468 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: trauma on the child. But we really know very very 469 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: little about that case, and the police believe that it 470 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: predates the Guild go for I still say it Snike coinstance. 471 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: They're all buried together. So the discussion that there's more 472 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: than one serial killer using the same dumping ground, that's 473 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: you know, you're let's just think of you're at one 474 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: end of the football field and you look down to 475 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: the other end. They're not that much further away from 476 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: each other than that. These bodies, the burlap bags used 477 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: consistently with many of the victims to put their bodies in. Yes, 478 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: it's the same killer. To doctor Michelle Dupree, South Carolina 479 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: Medical examine or author of homicide investigation field guide, Doctor Dupree. 480 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: When you find a child's body, even if skeletonized, correct 481 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,239 Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. You can tell if it's a 482 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: girl or a boy by the teeth, a jawline, in 483 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: the pelvic area. You can tell the age, and of 484 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: course the length of the remains. What can even if 485 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: the child's body is skeletonized, what can you tell me 486 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: about the identity of the child? Yes, Stancy, we can 487 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: tell the sex. We can determine the approximate age. We 488 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: can also tell other things depending on you know, how 489 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: the child died. If there are injuries to the skeletal remain, 490 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: we can see if they're you know, gunshot wounds or 491 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: sharp forced injuries or things like that, or on trauma, 492 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: if there is fractures. So we're able to tell through 493 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: oftentimes through mitochondrial DNA, which we can recover from the 494 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: bone era to who that child is related to, provided 495 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: we have a sample, of course, to match it with. 496 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: I'm eternal sample. Mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother, and 497 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: that is different from nuclear DNA, which you get, for instance, 498 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: from let's just say, a root of your hair, which 499 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: as the mother and the father's genetic profile in it. 500 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: To Sheryl A point, speaking of the gene hunter, a 501 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: genetic genealogist. I'm still blown away by this belt they found, 502 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: But i find it very hard to believe Cheryl a 503 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: point that we can't identify who the purpose. You've got 504 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: a belt likely with DNA may even being used to 505 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: strangle one of the victims. It had to be for 506 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: a sex dead. There should have been the killer's DNA 507 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: in in or on the victim's body. And you've even 508 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: got the killer using one of the victim's cell phones 509 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: to taunt the victim's family. The little sister picks up 510 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: when he calls the victim's home. Put it really heartibly. 511 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: With all that evidence, we can't get the killer. They've 512 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: got eleven dead bodies that we know of in this 513 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: one dumping ground. Share the point, shouldn't there even on 514 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: and a body that's been disposed of, shouldn't there be 515 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: just let's just say the victims were raped. Why can't 516 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: we get DNA, Nancy, If the victims were raped, you 517 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: only have a certain amount of time that that DNA 518 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: would be viable to you know, you'd have to collect 519 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: it within a certain amount of time to be able 520 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: to identify that specific deal. Wait, let me explain what 521 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: you just said. I think, and you correct me if 522 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Because we hear of cases getting cracked years 523 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: and years and years later, like the Golden State killer case. Remember, 524 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: and they had but they took the DNA, the sperm, 525 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: the semen at the time of the rapes. So what 526 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: you're saying is if the body is disposed of and 527 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: years pass, you may not be able to get the semen, 528 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: whereas in the earlier cases many years passed before it's cracked, 529 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: but they got the DNA the semen at the time 530 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: of the rape. Is that right? That is correct, Nancy. 531 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: They would have attained that DNA, obtained that DNA at 532 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: that time. If these bodies were found decomposed later, at 533 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: a later time from when the death occurred, you won't 534 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: have that particular DNA. Now you could identify these victims 535 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: who are unidentified with obtaining DNA from their bones, and 536 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: that is when investigative genetic genealogy can come into play. 537 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: You would first run this DNA through the CODA system 538 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: to see if you could identify the bodies. If not, 539 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: you run it again looking for a familial DNA, possibly 540 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: a relative of the DNA from the body, and if 541 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: that doesn't work, we will genetic genealogy familial DNA such 542 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: as what was used by I think it was Paul 543 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: Holes when he crack helped as part of a team 544 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: crack the Golden State Killer case. To you special guests 545 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: joining us. The lawyer for Shannon Gilbert, it's John Ray. 546 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: He's right, he said, if this had been some millionaire debutante, 547 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: you couldn't have kept the experts and the CSI away 548 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: from this spot. But that was not to be for 549 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert. And that breaks my heart because I think 550 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: of her mom wondering what happened to Shannon. I'm just 551 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: thinking about the discrepancy in the way that this case 552 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: was treated because, as Gilbert said, she was not a debutante. 553 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: You know, I bet a lot of people in this room, 554 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: like myself, we're not debutots, and I would certainly want 555 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 1: our cases to get the love and attention that every 556 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: case deserves. A family, many families, eleven families waiting for answers. 557 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: Some of these women still Jane Doe, we don't even 558 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: know who they are. And having prosecuted a Jane do case. 559 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: I know how that feels. You don't know who your 560 00:36:54,040 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: victim is. You can go to gilgnews dot com more information, 561 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: But we wait as just as unfalls Nancy Grace crimes story, 562 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye, Fenn