Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Tot and this
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to
Speaker 1: There No Girls on the Internet, where we explore the
Speaker 1: intersection of identity, social media, technology, and the Internet experience.
Speaker 2: And this is another installment of.
Speaker 1: Our weekly news roundup, where we summarize Internet news that
Speaker 1: you might have missed.
Speaker 2: Joey, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3: Hey, Bridget, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I have to start out with a question.
Speaker 1: Do you have any tech related pet peeves? You might
Speaker 1: have guessed this is like me asking you so that
Speaker 1: I can grape about mine, but I want to hear
Speaker 1: yours first.
Speaker 3: Joey, Oh, Bridget.
Speaker 4: So many why do you think about the show? So Okay,
Speaker 4: this is like a very smalling in the grand scheme
Speaker 4: of things pet peeve. But lately I've been really really
Speaker 4: annoyed with the Spotify algorithm. Uh, just because I don't
Speaker 4: know if y'all have tried, like they have this new
Speaker 4: not new, I guess it's been around for like a minute.
Speaker 4: But if you type in like angry mix or like
Speaker 4: happy mix, like it'll come up with like a collection
Speaker 4: of songs so they have created for you, and it
Speaker 4: just like hasn't been good. I've got some really weird
Speaker 4: butns I think especially, I don't know, I think I.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's also just like, like.
Speaker 4: I've listened to a very wide variety of music, so
Speaker 4: I feel like a lot of times too, like a
Speaker 4: lot of it will get like mixed up together when
Speaker 4: I don't like it'll it'll label things in certain genres
Speaker 4: that they aren't.
Speaker 3: Just because I've been listening to it a lot.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Anyways, I've been very annoyous to the Spotify algorithm lately.
Speaker 4: I'm not And also I've realized it has been very
Speaker 4: hard to find like new music to listen to because
Speaker 4: it just keeps recommending the same artists that I already
Speaker 4: listened to, like when I'm looking for new music, which
Speaker 4: you know is fun if I like, I'm just trying
Speaker 4: to listen to songs that I like. But like, I think,
Speaker 4: especially trying to find new stuff now just because of
Speaker 4: this new like these mixes that are tailored specifically for you,
Speaker 4: it makes it so much harder to find new stuff
Speaker 4: which I don't like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so and I don't know.
Speaker 4: There's so many issues that Spotify just as a company,
Speaker 4: and like the way that like the streaming sort of
Speaker 4: net industry works that I it's annoying.
Speaker 3: It's very annoying.
Speaker 1: You have like activated something in me because I could
Speaker 1: talk about this all day. So I think this is
Speaker 1: just I haven't done any research into this because it's
Speaker 1: just banter. But I think I know what's happening with
Speaker 1: your playlist, which I think that Spotify is probably if
Speaker 1: I had to say, deprioritizing human people who make curated
Speaker 1: playlists and curated recommendations. Like I know that they used
Speaker 1: to have like big teams of humans working at Spotify
Speaker 1: that made playlists, and I know that like they are
Speaker 1: using AI to do some of that now, so I
Speaker 1: wonder if that's had a hand in why the playlist
Speaker 1: don't earnest good. I also think like with the play
Speaker 1: with like when you're looking for new music, you want
Speaker 1: you when you listen to a song, you want the
Speaker 1: next algorithmically generated song to be like not the same
Speaker 1: artist or a song that you've heard before, but but
Speaker 1: spiritually the same.
Speaker 2: Like I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 1: It's hard to put into words, like I want it
Speaker 1: to be like you're looking for something. It's it's very
Speaker 1: hard to verbalize, but do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just weird, I think, especially with they keep
Speaker 4: doing these these ones that are based on emotion and
Speaker 4: it's like you can't have an AI pick out. I
Speaker 4: have a screenshot on my phone of one that was
Speaker 4: like happy mix, and the artists that they use in
Speaker 4: the picture it's Midski and like, like I.
Speaker 3: Listened to a lot of good Ski. That's not necessarily
Speaker 3: my happy music.
Speaker 5: I don't think many people would call up the happy music,
Speaker 5: but like the algorithm was like, oh, this has like
Speaker 5: an up tempo beat this song. I don't know what's
Speaker 5: got I totally, I totally think you're right though. I
Speaker 5: think it's a lot of the AI algorithm is sort
Speaker 5: of stuff regardless of.
Speaker 6: Because I you know what, I have a lot of
Speaker 6: friends that make great playlists.
Speaker 5: I think I make a pretty decent playlist. Like there's
Speaker 5: there's clearly something something's some lot of.
Speaker 3: Like TikTok music too.
Speaker 2: Oh, I've noticed the same thing.
Speaker 1: Something else I've really taken umbrage with on Spotify is
Speaker 1: how bad their podcast player is.
Speaker 2: Like I have Spotify Premium.
Speaker 1: I have to say, it is where I listen to
Speaker 1: my podcasts, but I am almost in like a toxic
Speaker 1: relationship with Spotify's podcast player. You'll try to rewind it
Speaker 1: thirty seconds and it's like, oh, did you want to
Speaker 1: start playing a totally different podcast?
Speaker 3: Oh, it's so weird.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's certain shows that they like showed the ads
Speaker 4: are different, like how they Yeah, it's really annoying for
Speaker 4: you know, for a company that is like meant not monopolized.
Speaker 4: I guess a lot of people use Apple Music like
Speaker 4: other platforms that really like taken over this market, like.
Speaker 3: They don't operate well.
Speaker 2: And I don't know.
Speaker 4: I keep reading things too, and I think this might
Speaker 4: lead into what you're going to talk about, But I
Speaker 4: keep reading things too about like so much of our
Speaker 4: music and media and stuff that used to have like
Speaker 4: analog copies, like now people are collecting. Because I was like,
Speaker 4: I can't even think of, like I don't even think
Speaker 4: about the option of leaving Spotify because I'm like I
Speaker 4: have all of my mus I've had Spotify since I
Speaker 4: was like like in high school, Like I have like
Speaker 4: all of my music there. I don't have hard copies
Speaker 4: of those you know songs that I like. I don't
Speaker 4: want to lose all of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a love hate relationship with analog, So
Speaker 1: I'm an analog person. Like because I am a woman
Speaker 1: of a certain age, I was really into record collecting
Speaker 1: like most like hip music people were in a certain era.
Speaker 1: And let me tell you, I've had to I have,
Speaker 1: So I have a massive record collection in my house.
Speaker 1: I have had to schlep this collection to multiple apartments
Speaker 1: when I move multiple cities. Had I and I started
Speaker 1: collecting records before streaming was ever a thing, So I
Speaker 1: never imagined that I would live in a world where
Speaker 1: you could just get every single piece of music that
Speaker 1: Devo ever put out at the touch of a fingertip.
Speaker 1: So it's like, no, I need to have every vinyl
Speaker 1: that they've ever made. That's the only way I'll ever
Speaker 1: be able to hear it. And then you have to
Speaker 1: shot them from like New York to San Francisco to
Speaker 1: apartment to the apartment.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, but that said.
Speaker 1: Like, as media companies and streaming companies delete stuff, like
Speaker 1: I've been hearing more and more about like, oh you
Speaker 1: bought this game, well guess what, Like we could actually
Speaker 1: just delete it. It kind of feels like in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, like what does it mean to own something
Speaker 1: digitally if you never really own it in a real
Speaker 1: sense if the company that you bought it from can
Speaker 1: just like take it away. And I don't know, part
Speaker 1: of me, especially as Netflix and Hulu like raise their prices,
Speaker 1: part of me is like, might have to dust off
Speaker 1: that old DVD player because I have a lot of
Speaker 1: those too, and that actually it does lead to my
Speaker 1: big tech pet peeves that I have like just been.
Speaker 2: Enraged by.
Speaker 1: I was visiting my parents and my mom has got
Speaker 1: a new car, so I was driving her car and
Speaker 1: it's brand new, but it's super slick, and her car
Speaker 1: barely has any buttons in it, like physical pressable, clunky
Speaker 1: old school buttons. Everything is done on a touchscreen mounted
Speaker 1: on the dashboard pretty much everything. So I'm like driving
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to use my hand to you know,
Speaker 1: turn up the volume, turn the song, or put on
Speaker 1: the heat or whatever, and I'm feeling around expecting there
Speaker 1: to be like a touchable button.
Speaker 2: It's all on a touch screen.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've driven a car like this,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are people listening who are like, oh,
Speaker 1: I prefer the touchscreen, but.
Speaker 2: Whatever happened to a good old fashioned button?
Speaker 1: Like what is this assumption that touch screens are automatically
Speaker 1: better than a good old fashion clunky button that you press.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I.
Speaker 4: My mom also has a car with this sort of technology.
Speaker 4: And it's the like Tesla effect where everybody's picking up
Speaker 4: because I think Tesla was the first one to have
Speaker 4: the like just iPad screen in there, and it's awful,
Speaker 4: like driving, it is so annoying and like trying to
Speaker 4: deal with the control.
Speaker 3: Yeah no, I don't understand the appeal of it.
Speaker 1: So we actually might not be alone in this. Because
Speaker 1: this is from life Wire. The European New Car Assessment
Speaker 1: Program or euro en CAP gives safety ratings for cars,
Speaker 1: and next January, cars will not be able to get
Speaker 1: a five out of five rating unless they use buttons,
Speaker 1: stocks or dials for essential safety features. That's what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm sure people listening are like, it's better on.
Speaker 2: A touch screen.
Speaker 1: No, it's not. Buttons were fine. What did buttons ever
Speaker 1: do to anybody?
Speaker 3: Exactly? It's the same with everything. It's the same with
Speaker 3: like iPhones, Like as soon as they got rid of
Speaker 3: the this is my back in, you.
Speaker 7: Know, all the technology these days, but like I feel
Speaker 7: like once they got rid of the home screen on
Speaker 7: like iPhones or like the little home button home screen
Speaker 7: button on iPhones, like that was it.
Speaker 2: That was the end, That was the end of everything.
Speaker 1: Everything went to shit, her whole her, whole culture. I
Speaker 1: was just on the podcast also on Outspoken, Black Fat
Speaker 1: and Fem and one of the questions they were they
Speaker 1: asked was like, what's your what was your favorite piets technology?
Speaker 1: And it sent me down this rabbit hole of how
Speaker 1: much I loved BlackBerry. And part of it was that
Speaker 1: it had the clickable button and this like clickable kind
Speaker 1: of mouse stingy in the middle, like a circular button,
Speaker 1: And I swear to you I would type messages on
Speaker 1: my BlackBerry like I thought I was like working for
Speaker 1: the Obama White House or something like.
Speaker 2: I took it so seriously.
Speaker 1: I thought I thought I was like, you know, sending
Speaker 1: high pressure, high stakes emails.
Speaker 2: Mine.
Speaker 1: I was in my early twenties, so I definitely was
Speaker 1: not sending anything of any import. But something about the
Speaker 1: clickable button made me feel like I was really doing business.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was thing.
Speaker 4: About blackberries too that I feel. I don't know at
Speaker 4: least so I understand. I was a child when blackberries
Speaker 4: were a thing, so I always associated it with like
Speaker 4: it being my dad's like serious work phone that he
Speaker 4: had to So I was like in my mind, like
Speaker 4: blackberries are like this serious, like I am doing.
Speaker 3: I am going to work.
Speaker 4: You know what a child assumes an adults, Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: job and careers like bridget.
Speaker 3: Have you seen the BlackBerry movie?
Speaker 2: But I sure have. I thought it.
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to get sent a screener. Thank
Speaker 1: you whoever made that happen. But I wait, did you
Speaker 1: see it?
Speaker 3: I have not seen it.
Speaker 4: I do love my god, I'm Glenn Howardton, though, so
Speaker 4: I I gotta see it.
Speaker 1: This is okay. So I love Glenn Howardton, I love
Speaker 1: Always Sunny. I love their podcast. Or I listened to
Speaker 1: it for a while. I couldn't fallen off on it.
Speaker 1: But when I tell you that, like I believe he
Speaker 1: could have been nominated for an Oscar for Best Actor
Speaker 1: for his work in this movie, like the BlackBerry Movie?
Speaker 2: Is his Citizen Kane like he is? He is?
Speaker 6: He?
Speaker 1: I didn't I guess there are I don't know if
Speaker 1: you watch Always Sunny, But there are times in it
Speaker 1: when his character Dennis has a real like white hot intensity,
Speaker 1: and I think and I never really yeah, I never
Speaker 1: really thought he I never really put that together like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like very good acting. He is like a
Speaker 1: very good actor. You gotta see it. Please watch it
Speaker 1: and tell me what you.
Speaker 2: Think it is.
Speaker 4: It's definitely on my list. Yeah, that was my I
Speaker 4: feel like that's a great character for him. I would
Speaker 4: love to see him play more like somebody. Actually, I think, God,
Speaker 4: there's something some.
Speaker 3: Tweeters something I saw right.
Speaker 4: I am against the idea of these types of remakes,
Speaker 4: by the way, just disclaim her, but somebody like they
Speaker 4: might be making an American Psycho remake or something. And
Speaker 4: somebody immediately posted like a picture of him as like
Speaker 4: the oh this guest.
Speaker 3: And I was like, that would be perfect, that would
Speaker 3: be so funny.
Speaker 4: That is the one actor I actually would go see
Speaker 4: again another needless remake of a movie, but.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I would I would absolutely watch that.
Speaker 1: I would absolutely watch that. Yes, cannot like ten out
Speaker 1: of ten BlackBerry movie. Also, it really captures that time
Speaker 1: very well, just the time of like you know when
Speaker 1: iPhone came out and it was like that Steve Jobs
Speaker 1: announcement up on the stage, you know, like just this
Speaker 1: how we were all communicating that it really it really is.
Speaker 1: It does a great send up of that era, and
Speaker 1: I feel like this whole segment is kind of like
Speaker 1: er kids these days technology, which leads us into our
Speaker 1: first topic very well, which is an update on what
Speaker 1: is happening in the fight to potentially ban TikTok.
Speaker 2: Have you been following this?
Speaker 4: I found out about this probably the same way a
Speaker 4: lot of people did, which is that I opened TikTok
Speaker 4: and there was a very alarming in pographic thing that
Speaker 4: like immediately pops up being like save TikTok.
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's that's about as far.
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna lie. Honestly, I saw it and kind
Speaker 4: of exited out of it and just kept scrolling.
Speaker 3: I was not in the mood to think about reality
Speaker 3: at that point.
Speaker 1: But yes, you're like, I'm just trying to disassociate with
Speaker 1: some tiktoks.
Speaker 4: That was not why I opened TikTok was to find
Speaker 4: out about the government collapsing.
Speaker 3: I don't know whatever is happening.
Speaker 1: So if you like Joey opened your TikTok app and
Speaker 1: saw a big black and white banner that said stop
Speaker 1: a TikTok shutdown. Congress is planning a total ban of TikTok.
Speaker 1: Speak up now before your government strips one hundred and
Speaker 1: seventy million amy Americans of their constitutional right to free expression.
Speaker 1: This will damage millions of businesses, destroy the livelihoods of
Speaker 1: countless creators across the country. And then I, artists and audience,
Speaker 1: let Congress know what TikTok means to you. So here's
Speaker 1: what's going on. A bill that would force TikTok's Chinese owner,
Speaker 1: Byte Dance to sell passed a big vote today. The
Speaker 1: House Energy and Commerce Committee voted unanimously to pass this bill,
Speaker 1: meaning that TikTok is one step closer to essentially kind
Speaker 1: of being banned of the United States. Now, to be clear,
Speaker 1: this legislation would force Byte Dance to sell TikTok to
Speaker 1: an American owner, But because of the complicated nature of that,
Speaker 1: like who would they sell to, how would work? We
Speaker 1: break all of this data in an episode with Abbey
Speaker 1: Richards that will put in the show description.
Speaker 2: Basically, people are calling it.
Speaker 1: A ban even though it technically isn't because forcing TikTok
Speaker 1: to sell to an American owner is like so complicated
Speaker 1: that it may as well be a ban. This bill
Speaker 1: in order to become a law would stove the past
Speaker 1: the House and the Senate, and some senators have already
Speaker 1: expressed opposition to it. So if you open your TikTok
Speaker 1: app like Joey and got that big alert urging you
Speaker 1: to call your congress person, that is why basically TikTok
Speaker 1: is kind of going on the offensive here. And even
Speaker 1: though this is just one hurdle of several other hurdles
Speaker 1: that would have to be satisfied for this to become
Speaker 1: the law of the land, I think TikTok is.
Speaker 2: Really feeling the heat.
Speaker 1: I actually did not get one of these alerts my
Speaker 1: open TikTok today.
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's because they know that I'm in Washington,
Speaker 2: d C.
Speaker 1: And I don't have a voting member of Congress and
Speaker 1: I can actually call on So if you don't live
Speaker 1: in Washington, DC and you actually get to enjoy meaningful
Speaker 1: congressional representation, well congratulations, call your congress person for me
Speaker 1: and tell them that I like TikTok.
Speaker 4: I imagine that having congressional representation. I do think I
Speaker 4: gotta say, I do think it is a little bit
Speaker 4: funny because and not to single out of TikTok. Obviously
Speaker 4: this is like a universal issue, but TikTok has done
Speaker 4: so much to repress activists within, you know, particularly recently,
Speaker 4: it is a little bit funny to see them now
Speaker 4: utilizing their platform to.
Speaker 3: Be like, come on, call your congress people.
Speaker 2: We love free expression. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, that's one of the things that is
Speaker 1: so tough about this conversation is that I have a
Speaker 1: lot of gripes with TikTok. I have a lot of
Speaker 1: gripes about their moderation. I have a lot of gripes
Speaker 1: about how content is promoted or not promoted, whether or
Speaker 1: not certain topics are being suppressed. I'm not the only
Speaker 1: person in hearings. Lawmakers have asked about this too, And
Speaker 1: so I don't want to make it seem like I
Speaker 1: am like yay TikTok. TikTok has no problems, but some
Speaker 1: of the way that these lawmakers are framing TikTok I
Speaker 1: really take issue with. And so it's an issue where
Speaker 1: it's like it almost sounds like I am very pro TikTok,
Speaker 1: even though I really like you, Joey, I know that
Speaker 1: that TikTok has a lot of big problems, and I
Speaker 1: have a lot of big concerns about how they're moderating
Speaker 1: certain things and how they're some of their policies. And
Speaker 1: I do have to say it does sound like this
Speaker 1: push to get folks to call their Congress people is working.
Speaker 1: One house GOP staff or told Politico quote, it's so
Speaker 1: so bad. Our phones have not stopped ringing. They're teenagers
Speaker 1: and old people saying they spend their whole day on
Speaker 1: the app and we can't take it away. Here's Representative
Speaker 1: Jamal Bauman from New York saying that banning TikTok would
Speaker 1: silence the voices of younger Americans, particularly who are using
Speaker 1: the app to organize for things like climate justice or
Speaker 1: a full cease fire.
Speaker 2: My colleagues are trying to ban TikTok, which is crazy.
Speaker 8: They're doing it because of the oppression, because of your organizing,
Speaker 8: It's because of your good worth. One million email sent
Speaker 8: to ban the Wiggle Project, full million emails sent to
Speaker 8: demand a sees via much more work to do as
Speaker 8: we head into these and lectures and beyond. Again, they're
Speaker 8: not trying to do anything to Facebook, even though China
Speaker 8: gets most of this information from Facebook. They're going after
Speaker 8: TikTok because they're going after young people.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2: At or back.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I know, and like I mean to clarify
Speaker 4: what I said before too, I think I think honestly
Speaker 4: like for you know, obviously TikTok itself and I agree
Speaker 4: with you like TikTok is it's not a lot of
Speaker 4: messed up stuff, but at the same time, it is
Speaker 4: this platform for particularly young people and uh, you know,
Speaker 4: like he said in the video, I think, you know,
Speaker 4: it's part of the preason TikTok that gets targeted out
Speaker 4: these other platforms is because it isn't primarily younger audience.
Speaker 3: And yeah, we've seen all these like movements.
Speaker 4: You know, TikTok may not necessarily treat those movements well
Speaker 4: and treat those you know kind of voice as well
Speaker 4: on their app, but it is a platform for a
Speaker 4: lot of these more progressive movements that I think, especially
Speaker 4: like you know, this past year, and that is something
Speaker 4: that there are people that have stakes in silencing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I can't sort of turn off the
Speaker 1: part of the conversation that does feel sort of like
Speaker 1: handwringing about like what are the youth doing on their phones?
Speaker 1: And like I am a huge proponent of you know,
Speaker 1: safer digital experiences, particularly for young people.
Speaker 2: But people are.
Speaker 1: Describing the views and attitudes of young people in this
Speaker 1: way that it's like, oh, well, it must be the
Speaker 1: app that is making them feel this way. And it's
Speaker 1: like it couldn't possibly be that young people are smart
Speaker 1: and empathetic and they've looked at the facts.
Speaker 2: I'm like, they have the point of view.
Speaker 1: It's like it just seems it just seems very disingenuous
Speaker 1: to make it seem like TikTok is the reason why
Speaker 1: young people are you know, organizing for a full ceasefire
Speaker 1: and things like that. Like it just it just feels
Speaker 1: very belittling to their perspective and their point of view.
Speaker 1: And I just I don't, I don't do you know,
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: If I'm being clined, I totally agree.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a kind of like tale
Speaker 4: as old at time, there's always you know, the latest
Speaker 4: technology or like the latest thing. It's always you know this,
Speaker 4: this thing is exposing our kids to this new idea.
Speaker 3: It's never like hey, there's just this idea out there.
Speaker 4: That is appealing to people because you know X, Y Z,
Speaker 4: Like I don't know, but but again, yeah, like this
Speaker 4: is the same thing with every kind of new technology,
Speaker 4: every kind of new art form.
Speaker 3: Not to say that.
Speaker 4: TikTok is necessarily an art form, but I don't know,
Speaker 4: like a new kind of platform or of like communication.
Speaker 4: This is kind of the conversation that has had over
Speaker 4: and over and over again, and like A, there's that
Speaker 4: and then B I think they're genuinely I mean, I
Speaker 4: don't want to say I don't know what is up,
Speaker 4: because I do think I know what is up, and
Speaker 4: it is it is so weird, like with the calls
Speaker 4: for ceaspire, I think with like previously, when like the
Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter protests were kind of in a bull swing,
Speaker 4: like every single time, there's sort of this idea of
Speaker 4: like oh this, well, like my kid couldn't actually think that,
Speaker 4: or like general public couldn't think this because it is
Speaker 4: against what the status quo is or against what is
Speaker 4: like the most convenient kind of point two, I don't
Speaker 4: know like it is sort of part of the thing
Speaker 4: that is like politically most convenient.
Speaker 3: That kind of argument is connected to so many things.
Speaker 4: I think that's where you get like what like Nancy
Speaker 4: Pelosi tell like protesters to like go back to Russia
Speaker 4: or whatever because they're like agents of the crumbling, like
Speaker 4: it was some crud. We're talking about Palestide, which is
Speaker 4: a totally different, Like I don't know, like if this
Speaker 4: it's this idea that people in general can't think for themselves,
Speaker 4: and especially young people and especially progressive young people, And
Speaker 4: I think that is not surprising, and I don't think
Speaker 4: it's gonna stop necessarily, but yeah, it is, like clearly
Speaker 4: that's the root of the problem, not the fact that.
Speaker 3: TikTok is like poisoning people's minds.
Speaker 2: Yet it's so insulting.
Speaker 1: We have talked about a TikTok ban on the show before,
Speaker 1: and so I think folks probably know how I feel
Speaker 1: about it. You know, just like any social media platform
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, there are definitely valid concerns about TikTok.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Anybody who tells you that there are not security concerns
Speaker 1: with TikTok just doesn't know the facts. There were reports
Speaker 1: that TikTok accessed journalists' information in an attempt to identify
Speaker 1: which employees were leaking information about the app. TikTok actually
Speaker 1: admitted to doing this, according to an internal email, but
Speaker 1: when asked about it directly, TikTok CEO responded that, oh, well,
Speaker 1: spy is not the right way to describe that, which,
Speaker 1: like it did sound like spying to me, so TikTok doesn't.
Speaker 2: I don't want to make it seem like.
Speaker 1: TikTok has like a squeaky clean record, because they do not. However,
Speaker 1: this is not the kind of opposition that lawmakers are
Speaker 1: levying against TikTok. They're saying that TikTok is a big
Speaker 1: national security threat because it is a Chinese owned company
Speaker 1: and the platform is being used to like steal American
Speaker 1: data and feed it to the Chinese Communist Party.
Speaker 2: So not only is.
Speaker 1: There no smoking gun or no evidence of this being
Speaker 1: the case, it's also just like a plainly xenophobic thing
Speaker 1: to say, Like the way that lawmakers have spoken to
Speaker 1: the head of TikTok makes it clear to me that
Speaker 1: there is some obvious xenophobia going on, And so I
Speaker 1: think that lawmakers have sense that people want them to
Speaker 1: crack down on big tech, and I think that lawmakers
Speaker 1: want to look tough on China always, right, and so
Speaker 1: going after TikTok as this singular boogieyman is a way
Speaker 1: for them to kill two birds with one stone and
Speaker 1: really do that. I also think that the reality here
Speaker 1: is that the United States wants to remain the sort
Speaker 1: of major, big player when it comes to big tech.
Speaker 1: They don't like the idea of other countries, you know,
Speaker 1: becoming major players in the big tech landscape and the
Speaker 1: social media landscape. They wanted to just be for you know,
Speaker 1: your Mark Zuckerberg's and your Elon Musk's of the world
Speaker 1: and not your shows these shoes of the world.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what it really comes down to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4: I mean they've been very transparent about the fact that
Speaker 4: it is more to do with China than it has
Speaker 4: to do with like protecting people's data or whatever, which
Speaker 4: like I don't know, yeah, like Facebook's probably doing just
Speaker 4: as much harm, if not more. And uh, I mean
Speaker 4: that that clip of the like Senate hearing where they just.
Speaker 3: Kept asking the guy if he was part of the
Speaker 3: Chinese part.
Speaker 1: Like what's their connection to China? Right, but really, what's
Speaker 1: your connection to China?
Speaker 2: Like it's so fucked up. The fact that people.
Speaker 4: Like still think this is about genuine safety concerns and
Speaker 4: not just yeah xenophobia. Like after that, I think just
Speaker 4: kind of goes to show how messed up a lot
Speaker 4: of this is. But yeah, again, like it is sort
Speaker 4: of the double edge or the sort of two sided
Speaker 4: issue of like this, there's still all these issues with
Speaker 4: this platform. They've still done a lot of messed up stuff.
Speaker 4: But also like, clearly this is not coming from a
Speaker 4: good place or from a genuine concern for people's safety.
Speaker 1: Because if, for we're coming from a genuine concern for
Speaker 1: all of our data privacy, we would have some sort
Speaker 1: of meaningful data privacy legislation, which we in the United
Speaker 1: States do not. It does not begin an end with
Speaker 1: banning TikTok. All of our data is essentially on sale
Speaker 1: for whoever wants it, including China. Only a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: Biden signed an executive order that limited the sale of
Speaker 1: some of our data in some ways to quote countries
Speaker 1: of concern, including China. But as Wired points out, this
Speaker 1: scative order only means that US data brokers need to
Speaker 1: take some steps and some security requirements during transfer, many
Speaker 1: of which were already required by law, and so like,
Speaker 1: I have a hard time understanding why TikTok is this
Speaker 1: massive threat of all of our data being given to China,
Speaker 1: given that a foreign adversary like China would not even
Speaker 1: need TikTok to get that data right now, you know,
Speaker 1: as long as they follow certain specific guidelines, they can
Speaker 1: totally legally buy that data from US based data brokers.
Speaker 1: And so that to me is a huge problem. I
Speaker 1: don't think that we should be making TikTok this big,
Speaker 1: you know, boogeyman while not meaningfully addressing the actual root
Speaker 1: cause of the issue, which is that we don't really
Speaker 1: have the kind of data protections and privacy protections that
Speaker 1: we need in this country. And so, just to sort
Speaker 1: of wrap this up, I think it is still too
Speaker 1: soon to say whether or not TikTok will actually be banned.
Speaker 1: If I was a betting woman, I believe it could
Speaker 1: be banned. Like like, I think it's more likely than not,
Speaker 1: but that's just my opinion. But even still, this bill
Speaker 1: still needs to pass both the House and the Senate
Speaker 1: and be signed into law. By the President, in which case,
Speaker 1: if it did become the law, Bite Dance will still
Speaker 1: have six months to sell before any kind of band
Speaker 1: ticks effect.
Speaker 2: So we'll keep following this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess we'll find out.
Speaker 4: I will say, I personally, I don't think it's gonna
Speaker 4: end up being banned.
Speaker 2: I think, ooh tell me more.
Speaker 3: I just think.
Speaker 4: I just think it's it's like ben in the kind
Speaker 4: of culturals I guess too long, Like it's like if
Speaker 4: this the first round of this happening, I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: they're definitely gonna ban tich Talk. I feel like by
Speaker 4: this point, by like twenty twenty four, I feel like
Speaker 4: it's too far gone.
Speaker 3: And also, like they said, you.
Speaker 4: Know, there's all these like teenagers and older people too,
Speaker 4: I guess like calling in and complaining about it.
Speaker 3: I do think. I think at least if there is
Speaker 3: a band, I don't think it's gonna last.
Speaker 4: I think it'll it'll or there's gonna be some sort
Speaker 4: of way of going around it.
Speaker 1: But oh, for sure. That's something I really think about
Speaker 1: a lot. Is like in like you could like there
Speaker 1: are so many ways to get around this band. I
Speaker 1: would also be really curious how it will be enforced,
Speaker 1: and you know, it has to be said that I
Speaker 1: do think TikTok has really been instrumental in traditionally marginalized
Speaker 1: communities really being able to have a bigger voice. You know,
Speaker 1: our communities have you know, don't unless you like know,
Speaker 1: somebody on the mask tedd at the New York Times
Speaker 1: or whatever. Sometimes it's hard for our communities to really
Speaker 1: have access to the kind of media power that other
Speaker 1: groups have. And so I do think that this is
Speaker 1: if it is banned, I think that marginalized creators and
Speaker 1: marginalized communities would really suffer the most because we don't
Speaker 1: always have those avenues and those channels that are ready
Speaker 1: built to get our voices and stories out there. There
Speaker 1: are so many things pertaining to marginalized communities that I
Speaker 1: personally would not have known about if not for TikTok,
Speaker 1: and so I'm concerned that that as a platform for
Speaker 1: me staying informed about what's happening in other traditionally marginalized
Speaker 1: communities other than my own. I'm concerned for what the
Speaker 1: banning of that app means for me being able to
Speaker 1: stay informed with what's going on.
Speaker 4: Definitely, yeah, I totally agree, And I mean, I feel
Speaker 4: like part of the reason why right now this is
Speaker 4: so concerning is just the fact that it's like Twitter's
Speaker 4: gone to shit too, Like there's not necessarily like I
Speaker 4: feel like TikTok was kind of where I turned when
Speaker 4: Twitter stopped being like functional.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I don't know what's gonna where
Speaker 3: people are gonna go next.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel the exact same, speaking of Twitter being
Speaker 1: kind of a garbage factory, Well, this week over on Twitter,
Speaker 1: they rolled out video and voice calls.
Speaker 2: Y'all might recall that Elon Musk.
Speaker 1: Really wants Twitter to be like an everything app where
Speaker 1: you do your banking, your phone calls, your emails, all
Speaker 1: the things that you already do online now. But I
Speaker 1: guess like you can do all of those things over
Speaker 1: on Twitter, but I guess at great security risk to
Speaker 1: yourselves and also shitty.
Speaker 2: I guess that's how he's envisioning it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you never want him to like access your bank account,
Speaker 4: but in a less secure and more annoying way.
Speaker 3: Appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, finally a solution to this problem. So,
Speaker 1: because we're talking about Elon Musk, here the rollout of
Speaker 1: these video and voice calls has not been good and
Speaker 1: it's been rolled out to everyone.
Speaker 2: By default.
Speaker 1: You do not get the option of opting in if
Speaker 1: you had the Twitter app on your phone. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's on the browser yet, but you have it.
Speaker 1: So here's what you need to know about this rollout.
Speaker 1: First of all, Twitter's new video and voice calls leaks
Speaker 1: your IP address to anybody that you talk with, and
Speaker 1: it's really complicated to limit who you can talk to.
Speaker 1: Tech Crunch has a really good explainer which we'll link
Speaker 1: to in the show notes, where they say that a
Speaker 1: person's IP addressed is not like hugely sensitive necessarily, but
Speaker 1: these online identifiers can be used to infer location and
Speaker 1: can be linked to a person's online activity, which can
Speaker 1: be dangerous for high risk users. So if you're an activist,
Speaker 1: if you're a public figure, if you're a dissident, if
Speaker 1: you're somebody who you know is engaged in sensitive conversations
Speaker 1: or sensitive work, that could be concerning for you. Another
Speaker 1: thing to know about this is that Twitter does not
Speaker 1: mention encryption in any of their official help center pages
Speaker 1: at all, so their calls probably are not end to
Speaker 1: end encrypted, which potentially allows Twitter to listen in on
Speaker 1: conversations into end encrypted messaging apps such as Signal or WhatsApp.
Speaker 1: Those prevent anybody other than the caller and the recipient
Speaker 1: from listening in. And I do feel like, luckily we're
Speaker 1: going to a place where that is like more of
Speaker 1: the norm. And it's kind of interesting to me that
Speaker 1: Twitter rolled this out without even referencing whether or not
Speaker 1: calls are encrypted in any of their messaging. When tech
Speaker 1: Crunch actually emailed Twitter to ask about this, like incredibly
Speaker 1: basic privacy and security thing, they of course got the
Speaker 1: standard Twitter reply, which is like, oh, we're busy now,
Speaker 1: please check back later, which again to me, really speaks
Speaker 1: to the carelessness with which this was rolled out, you know,
Speaker 1: giving it to everybody by default, you know, not having
Speaker 1: people opt in or even like meaningfully telling them what's
Speaker 1: going on, and then not being able to answer some
Speaker 1: of these basic security questions to me is like a
Speaker 1: big red flag. So my advice to everybody is, unless
Speaker 1: you have some particular need to be doing calls over Twitter,
Speaker 1: you should turn this off.
Speaker 2: It's pretty easy to turn off.
Speaker 1: We will drop the tech Crunch piece with pretty clear
Speaker 1: instructions with images on how to do this.
Speaker 2: In the show notes.
Speaker 1: But unless you've got some real pressing need to have
Speaker 1: elon musk, like listening to your sensitive phone call, I
Speaker 1: suggest that everybody.
Speaker 2: Turn this off. Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 1: So, speaking of online shenanigans, I have to talk about
Speaker 1: this recent report from BBC breaking down a new ish
Speaker 1: disinformation trend that we're seeing ahead of the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four US presidential election, which is fake AI generated images
Speaker 1: of Trump with black people. So I've actually seen a
Speaker 1: bunch of these in the wild. The one that sticks
Speaker 1: in my mind is an image of Trump posing with
Speaker 1: a bunch of young black men. This was shared un
Speaker 1: ironically by somebody that I follow on Facebook or like
Speaker 1: I'm friends with on Facebook, and so like was not
Speaker 1: shared in a like, look how stupid this is kind
Speaker 1: of way, shared in a like yay Trump, this is
Speaker 1: great kind of way. And so the caption of this
Speaker 1: fake image was like Trump's motorcade was driving around Baltimore
Speaker 1: when these kids asked him to stop and take a picture.
Speaker 1: And it was seen by one point three million people.
Speaker 1: And it's one of those images where like, if you
Speaker 1: thought about it for ten seconds, like think about it critically,
Speaker 1: for ten seconds. If Trump's motorcade was driving through Baltimore
Speaker 1: and a bunch of random kids on the street were like, Hey, Trump,
Speaker 1: stop your motorcade and get out of a car and
Speaker 1: take a picture with us. Do you think that would happen? Like,
Speaker 1: it's just like it's one of those things where it's
Speaker 1: like the image is compelling. I will give them that,
Speaker 1: But if you just thought about it, you would realize
Speaker 1: this is this doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: It doesn't it doesn't hold water.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say I would not expect that to
Speaker 4: be something that Trump would do realistically. I'm also like,
Speaker 4: looking at this photo, I mean, it's the whole it's
Speaker 4: the AI thing, where like I can I get how
Speaker 4: people could like maybe mistake this for an actual image
Speaker 4: at first, but they're so like allthough the people in
Speaker 4: the picture look so like airbrushed, it's so weird.
Speaker 1: Yes, their skin is like way too polished and smooth
Speaker 1: and kind of kind of like shiny in that way
Speaker 1: that just like your normal skin doesn't skin unless it's fake.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, one of these pictures, because I'm just seeing them
Speaker 4: now for the first time, one of them genuinely does
Speaker 4: like it actually is a little freaky, like it look
Speaker 4: kind of looks like a real photo. And I think
Speaker 4: if I was like scrolling on like Instagram and I
Speaker 4: saw it, I would assume it was a real photo.
Speaker 4: But like, yeah, no, it all of these photos like whenever,
Speaker 4: like AI photos always.
Speaker 3: Like have a weird kind of like inhuman quality to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they do.
Speaker 1: Now it concerns me, like, like not even that long ago,
Speaker 1: we were always like, oh, look at the hand, look
Speaker 1: at the fingers, And now it's like it's it's figured
Speaker 1: out how to do the hands on the fingers, and
Speaker 1: now we have to look at other tells.
Speaker 2: And so I'm with you.
Speaker 1: I do think a lot of these pictures like I'm
Speaker 1: not above this, like I have been taken by AI
Speaker 1: pictures before, even as somebody who thinks about disinformation and
Speaker 1: AI a lot, Like I think it was the.
Speaker 2: Pope image the Pope. Yeah, that one got me.
Speaker 1: But it was exactly like you said it was the
Speaker 1: morning I was I had not I didn't have my
Speaker 1: contact lenses in yet. I was just like drinking coffee
Speaker 1: and scrolling social media on my iPad in the morning
Speaker 1: while having breakfast, and like you, like of course, in
Speaker 1: that instance, when you're just quickly scrolling and you're not
Speaker 1: necessarily primed and poised to be having your critical thinking
Speaker 1: hat on, you might see something quickly and be like, oh, okay, sure,
Speaker 1: Like guess the Pope is wearing this Balenciaga puffer. Guess
Speaker 1: Trump is hanging out in Baltimore with these kids on
Speaker 1: the stoop, Like, guess it makes sense, and we should
Speaker 1: have a media ecosystem where you don't have to have
Speaker 1: your critical thinking cap on twenty four to seven whenever
Speaker 1: you're on social media to determine what is true and
Speaker 1: what is fake. Like it is wild to me that
Speaker 1: we all have to be so on our toes all
Speaker 1: the time, but I do think in this climate we
Speaker 1: kind of do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely and yeah again, Like this this first photo, I.
Speaker 3: That that if this one it's it's.
Speaker 4: Just like with a group of like the women, yah,
Speaker 4: the women, yeah, the one with the yeah, this first one,
Speaker 4: that one's freaky that that I think that could trick
Speaker 4: me like that you can still tell even with that one,
Speaker 4: like the hands are a little bit miss messed up,
Speaker 4: but the way they have it, like you can only
Speaker 4: really see like two people's like one hand on two
Speaker 4: different people. So so it's easier to kind of look
Speaker 4: over I think it's easier to kind of.
Speaker 3: Like not not really catch on.
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, this is just a perpetual aid a nightmare.
Speaker 1: But you know, so, as far as we know, these
Speaker 1: images are not coming from anybody connected to Trump or
Speaker 1: Trump's campaign, but the co founder of the organization Black
Speaker 1: Voters Matter, which is a group that encourages black folks
Speaker 1: to vote, says that the manipulated images were clearly pushing
Speaker 1: a kind of strategic narrative designed to show Trump as
Speaker 1: popular in the black community. And so we don't even
Speaker 1: need to look to AI to see this everywhere, this
Speaker 1: notion that black folks like Trump. I you know, try
Speaker 1: to monitor what's happening in known disinformation spaces and in
Speaker 1: far right extremist media. They say things they're so fucking racist,
Speaker 1: but they say things like, oh, well, the Trump mugshot
Speaker 1: means that black people are gonna love Trump, or like
Speaker 1: the Trump sneakers, you know how black people love sneakers.
Speaker 1: It's like it's the so like it's not just coming
Speaker 1: from these AI visual disinformation pieces that message that black
Speaker 1: people are excited about Trump. I'm seeing being pushed in
Speaker 1: spaces that have nothing to do with AI, and it's
Speaker 1: it's very telling to me.
Speaker 2: And again, they're always so.
Speaker 1: Offensive the way, like like the way that they are.
Speaker 3: The sneakers one was crazy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the sneakers one was so like I was like, oh, okay, we're.
Speaker 2: Doing that all right?
Speaker 1: Yeah it is And so like what I guess, even
Speaker 1: though you don't need AI to make this kind of offensive,
Speaker 1: you know, digital fakeries, it is concerning. So the Washington
Speaker 1: Posts Tech Vertical spoke to the person who made the
Speaker 1: image that you're talking about that that you said looked
Speaker 1: so real. He is Mark Ka, a host of a
Speaker 1: conservative radio show in Florida, who said that he created
Speaker 1: the image using the AI image tool mid Journey to
Speaker 1: illustrate a November twenty nine post about Trump's alleged growing
Speaker 1: support among black voters. He said that he knew that
Speaker 1: posts that have an image tend to perform better on
Speaker 1: social media platforms, so he just made this image on
Speaker 1: mid Journey and he said it took him thirty seconds
Speaker 1: to create, which is concerning that like, in less than
Speaker 1: a minute somebody could make this like pretty convincing image.
Speaker 1: The Washington Post also spoke to doctor Joan Donovan, who
Speaker 1: made a really good point about that coverage of this
Speaker 1: kind of thing is kind of tricky and can also
Speaker 1: sort of feed into the problem because the people who
Speaker 1: make these kinds of images want people to be talking
Speaker 1: about them, right, and so the image itself might not
Speaker 1: be newsworthy until it gets a kind of coverage that
Speaker 1: makes it go viral. Doctor Donovan says, one of the
Speaker 1: things we have to consider about campaigns like this is
Speaker 1: how much they are stunting in terms of trying to
Speaker 1: get media attention for something that otherwise would not merit headlines.
Speaker 1: Some propagandists might recognize that it's possibly not newsworthy that
Speaker 1: black people support Trump, but it is newsworthy that AI
Speaker 1: generated photos of fake voters are circulating. And to doctor
Speaker 1: Donovan's point, Marquaye actually said that his AI generated fake
Speaker 1: Trump images did not go viral until they were covered
Speaker 1: by BBC, and so you know, doctor Donovan might have
Speaker 1: a point there.
Speaker 2: So doctor Donovan went further and spoke to.
Speaker 1: This idea that yes, like AI that gives people the
Speaker 1: ability to quickly and effectively make this kind of visual
Speaker 1: disinformation is really scary and like bad but cheap fakes
Speaker 1: and other kinds of medium manipulation also exists, and it's
Speaker 1: also a big concern because you know, whereas these Trump
Speaker 1: deep fakes now have labels on Facebook and Instagram that
Speaker 1: say they are not real, cheap fakes and other kind
Speaker 1: of low budget media manipulation might not trigger that the
Speaker 1: same kind of misinformation detectors in the same way and
Speaker 1: can potentially spread further.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, And yeah, like like something that Trump has
Speaker 4: been very good at, like you know, monopolized. They're taking
Speaker 4: advantage of media coverage and media coverage of like you know,
Speaker 4: outrageous or sort of out their behavior.
Speaker 3: This kind of reminds me of like.
Speaker 4: Early on, I think this was more the twenty sixteen election,
Speaker 4: but I look the twenty twenty election too, Like whenever
Speaker 4: there would be like some sort of group of like
Speaker 4: marginalized people that.
Speaker 3: Supported Like I remember there was a big like kind of.
Speaker 4: Article about this like gaze per Trump like thing, and
Speaker 4: it was.
Speaker 3: Like, Okay, it doesn't even like it's probably like.
Speaker 4: A a tiny group, and then b it's like the
Speaker 4: whole like sort of like shock value. It is like, Wow,
Speaker 4: this marginalized group that like the Republican Party kind of
Speaker 4: hates uh is supporting like their super right wing candidate.
Speaker 4: But yeah, like again, that's not necessarily newsworthy. It's sort
Speaker 4: of not showing to scale the actual kind of impact
Speaker 4: of these there or not showing to scale like the
Speaker 4: actual support or numbers or whatever what that means. What
Speaker 4: that argument is, there's probably what there's people of you know,
Speaker 4: whatever marginalized group that support Trump or the Republicans for
Speaker 4: like whatever reason, God and of itself is not necessarily newsworthy.
Speaker 3: But what it does is it kind of like distorts
Speaker 3: distorts like the wider story and.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's just weird. It's like, yeah, once
Speaker 4: everything about this election is just gonna be so insane.
Speaker 3: It already has been.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Think you make a really good point that I think
Speaker 1: that's what doctor Donovan is saying, is that, you know,
Speaker 1: we really need to be thinking a little deeper about
Speaker 1: these stories and what makes them do is worthy Because
Speaker 1: a group of gay people loudly advocating like a small
Speaker 1: group of gay folks advocating their support for Trump, it's
Speaker 1: not like there's a deeper story about well, has Trump
Speaker 1: actually you know, been good for this community, and what
Speaker 1: are the actual numbers of folks who support Trump? Like
Speaker 1: I do, I do wonder if it it like makes
Speaker 1: it tempting to turn what otherwise would just be like
Speaker 1: maybe a small stunt or something into a larger pattern.
Speaker 3: You know. It definitely, like yeah, it definitely.
Speaker 4: It feels like the issue is mainly just that, like
Speaker 4: it's sort of changing what the actual meaning of Like
Speaker 4: it changes changing what the story is. It's implying something
Speaker 4: about the way a certain group of people votes. I
Speaker 4: feel like the whole kind of way of like tracking
Speaker 4: votes based on like you know, particular identities that people
Speaker 4: have too, Like that already is so outdated and like
Speaker 4: we've already seen the kind of nuances of that, and
Speaker 4: like you know, yeah, there's different factors in people's lives
Speaker 4: that make them vote certain ways or do certain things
Speaker 4: or believe certain things and just kind of like groping
Speaker 4: in it into like.
Speaker 3: I don't know this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, again, it feels like they're following for what the
Speaker 4: this kind of campaign wants them to, like what message
Speaker 4: they want them to circulate, which doesn't seem.
Speaker 1: Good exactly, And that's exactly what Disinformation specialist Nina Jenklitz,
Speaker 1: who was also on the podcast before, said that we
Speaker 1: don't actually need to be totally terrified because we do
Speaker 1: have common sense, and common sense is still a really
Speaker 1: good deep fake detector. And Nina says, you know you
Speaker 1: should when you see images like this, you should ask yourself, like,
Speaker 1: is Trump actually a great friend to the African American community?
Speaker 2: If something seems.
Speaker 1: Off about it, it is probably a deep fake, right,
Speaker 1: And so just really going back to our common sense
Speaker 1: of well, what do I know about this person? Does
Speaker 1: this seem like something that would actually be doing. I
Speaker 1: also would go further and say Donald Trump is a
Speaker 1: known germa phone, He's not usually photographed like like that.
Speaker 1: And the one deep fake image he's like hugging these
Speaker 1: two women, and it's like he's not someone who is
Speaker 1: generally photographed being that touchy feely with people, let alone
Speaker 1: black women.
Speaker 2: So is that something that you would see right right? Right?
Speaker 3: Known racist? Like this is not I literally I that
Speaker 3: can like the twenty.
Speaker 4: Six er I guess yeah, thought that would be twenty
Speaker 4: six back in twenty sixteen, like because I was I'm
Speaker 4: from Chicago originally, and there was like a rally that
Speaker 4: he canceled in Chicago because he was afraid he was
Speaker 4: going to be like get shot. Like it was because
Speaker 4: of all of his stuff that he was like it
Speaker 4: was insane, like this man and and I'm not saying,
Speaker 4: I don't know who's to say what would have happened,
Speaker 4: but it's like one of those things of like this
Speaker 4: man is so like I don't think he is going
Speaker 4: into predominantly black neighborhoods uh in Baltimore if like, I
Speaker 4: just that just not seemed to be the kind of
Speaker 4: thing that he uh would be putting himself. But that
Speaker 4: situation because of certain beliefs that he has.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't see Donald Trump stopping his motorcade
Speaker 1: and chilling with the homies on the stoop in Baltimore.
Speaker 2: You don't see it.
Speaker 3: You know, anything could happen.
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. Well,
Speaker 1: speaking of AI, you know, we talk on this show
Speaker 1: a lot about AI deep fakes, specifically non consensual deep
Speaker 1: fake images, and it really does feel like every week
Speaker 1: there's like a new school where it's happening, or a
Speaker 1: new celebrity who is being targeted but now representative Alexandria
Speaker 1: Okazio Cortez has a plan to stop it. AOC told
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone that she's going to be leading the House
Speaker 1: companion of the disrupt Explicit Forged Images and Non Consensual
Speaker 1: Edits Act of twenty twenty four, also known as the
Speaker 1: Defiance Act. It's a anacronym. That's why it's such a
Speaker 1: mouthful to say. With a bipartisan group of representatives. So
Speaker 1: this bill is her first move since being named to
Speaker 1: the House of Representatives by partisan Task Force on AI. So,
Speaker 1: how this legislation would work is that it amends the
Speaker 1: current Violence Against Women Act so that people can sue
Speaker 1: anybody who produces, distributes, or even receives deep fake, non
Speaker 1: consensual pornographic images if they knew or recklessly disregarded that
Speaker 1: the victim did not consent to those images. AOC says
Speaker 1: that she developed the legislation working with survivors and survivors groups,
Speaker 1: which to me is very important because oftentimes legislation that
Speaker 1: doesn't really like center and listen to the people impacted
Speaker 1: can end up having, you know, a different impact than
Speaker 1: the intended impact, and like can just end up like
Speaker 1: not making the lives of people who are targeted or
Speaker 1: survivors better more than twenty five organizations have endorsed this
Speaker 1: bipartisan legislation, including the National Women's Law Center, the Sexual
Speaker 1: Violence Prevention Association, the National Domestic Violence Hotline, and Ultraviolet,
Speaker 1: where I used to work. AOC said that she started
Speaker 1: working on this legislation the week after those viral Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift AI generated deep fakes happened on Twitter. So again,
Speaker 1: for as much as we talk about the harm that
Speaker 1: deep fakes represent for women, girls, BIPOC people, other marginalized
Speaker 1: people who, according to the UN and just common sense
Speaker 1: and life experience, are at a heightened risk for experiencing
Speaker 1: technology facilitated gender based violence, and given the way that
Speaker 1: we know technology like AI deep fakes is already disrupting
Speaker 1: democracy amazingly, there are no federal laws criminalizing it.
Speaker 2: Like every time I think about that, I just think.
Speaker 1: About how wild it is that it's just like kind
Speaker 1: of allowed, Like some states have taken steps, but federally nothing.
Speaker 1: And so this legislation, if it goes through, would be
Speaker 1: the first federal law taking any kind of action against
Speaker 1: non consensual AI generated deep fakes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that really is crazy.
Speaker 4: I mean I mean, like yeah, like this type of
Speaker 4: deep fake, you know, is obviously kind of a new thing,
Speaker 4: but like, I feel like this has kind of been
Speaker 4: an issue for a while, and you would think at
Speaker 4: least like there would be some sort of like libel thing.
Speaker 3: You could like put it under somehow. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: like I've said before, I think swifties can change the world.
Speaker 4: Once again, I'm a little skeptical about this chik Tawk
Speaker 4: fan going through. I believe in the power of fangirls
Speaker 4: and like teenagers that just a deep obsession and parasocial
Speaker 4: relationship with Taylor Swift, amongst many other celebrities.
Speaker 1: Have you ever read that book Everything I Need I
Speaker 1: get from you How fangirls created the Internet as we
Speaker 1: know it?
Speaker 3: I am not, but like I should.
Speaker 4: That sounds like that's totally up my alley, Caitlyn Tiffany,
Speaker 4: Is it changed my whole basically, long story short, You're
Speaker 4: right that fangirls created the Internet.
Speaker 2: They control the Internet, they control everything.
Speaker 4: Look, I mean, yeah, I got I've spent a lot
Speaker 4: of my formative years on Tumblr and I do it
Speaker 4: was this g I was listening to it like another show,
Speaker 4: and they were talking about that that new movie that
Speaker 4: is coming out that's like based on Harry Styles.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I just watched the trailer for that a
Speaker 2: moment ago.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because it was so funny.
Speaker 4: They were talking about this whole phenomenon of these like
Speaker 4: fan fiction movies, fan fiction book to book to movie,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, yeah, no, this has been like a
Speaker 4: thing like this is I like, the fan fiction writers
Speaker 4: are like a pillar of the online community and now
Speaker 4: are making their way into the big screen as well,
Speaker 4: which is is an interesting phenomenon. But h yeah, I
Speaker 4: love that. I definitely will check that book out.
Speaker 1: Oh, speaking of the big screen, we have to talk
Speaker 1: about this lawsuit.
Speaker 2: The most recent like jaded, jilted white guy lawsuit.
Speaker 4: So you do that should be a new segment, like
Speaker 4: in addition to the thelon now.
Speaker 3: White guy law suit.
Speaker 1: Alert Like yes, er er white guy lawsuit, new new
Speaker 1: white guy lawsuit just drapped. Okay, we're adding that that's
Speaker 1: gonna be a new segment.
Speaker 3: Love it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So since the Supreme Court struck down the race
Speaker 1: portion of affirmative action, we've been covering all these different
Speaker 1: legal challenges. We're gonna have our new segment, so keep
Speaker 1: any it out for that. But all of these different
Speaker 1: legal challenges have been rolling in from white folks who
Speaker 1: were like salty, they didn't get something they wanted, and
Speaker 1: they're being like, oh, it's because a woman or a
Speaker 1: person of color unfairly took it, and that's racism against
Speaker 1: me as a white person. And so this newest lawsuit
Speaker 1: has been filed by a script coordinator on the show
Speaker 1: Seal Team named Brian Bennecker, who claims that quote, heterosexual
Speaker 1: white men need extra qualifications to be hired in Hollywood. Historically, yes, historically,
Speaker 1: you know how it's always been heterosexual white men who
Speaker 1: can't get a break in any industry, whether it's Hollywood,
Speaker 1: you know, especially Hollywood.
Speaker 2: It's like historically, historically, you know.
Speaker 1: How, like it was white men who like weren't allowed
Speaker 1: to be in movies, had to enter through the back
Speaker 1: interest of nightclubs when they were performing all of that historically,
Speaker 1: remember how that happened. Oh yeah, so let's let's pause
Speaker 1: and imagine that this reality where it was straight white
Speaker 1: men who needed to work like twice as hard to
Speaker 1: prove themselves and not everybody else in Hollywood. So basically
Speaker 1: he is being represented by America First Legal, which is
Speaker 1: the legal initiative of the former Trump White House advisor
Speaker 1: Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller of all of the like Trump administration.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite outlets, Wanket always uses the phrase
Speaker 1: chuckle fucks of all of them, like he's the one
Speaker 1: that sort of I found the most personally odious. But
Speaker 1: their thing is basically filing complaints with the Equal Employment
Speaker 1: Opportunity Commission against major companies including Starbucks, McDonald's, Morgan Stanley
Speaker 1: over their corporate diversity and hiring practices. I believe that
Speaker 1: CBS is the first entertainment company that they have targeted
Speaker 1: in this way, so his lawsuit is pretty ridiculous. Basically,
Speaker 1: he argues that CBS has diversity quotas and that he
Speaker 1: was promised like a writing job when one opened up
Speaker 1: on the show, that instead they hired a bunch of
Speaker 1: unqualified bimbos instead of him, a white man who deserved it.
Speaker 1: That's basically the gist of the lawsuit. He says that
Speaker 1: CBS's hiring practices have created a situation where heterosexual white
Speaker 1: men need extra qualifications, including military experience or previous writing credits,
Speaker 1: to be hired as staff writers compared to their non
Speaker 1: white LGBTQ or female peers.
Speaker 6: Extra qualifications as in previous credits, like writing experience, you know,
Speaker 6: a resume.
Speaker 3: I'm being discriminated against.
Speaker 4: Oh so I am so this Maybe this is just
Speaker 4: specifically I have a lot of friends that work in film.
Speaker 3: I have a.
Speaker 4: Background working in film, so maybe this is particularly like
Speaker 4: pissing me off because of that.
Speaker 3: But like go to.
Speaker 4: Any film set, it is so like a historically it
Speaker 4: is a deeply, deeply massogynistic, deeply raised this industry. And
Speaker 4: still it is like the majority of the people you're
Speaker 4: gonna see, they are gonna be why men, Like yes,
Speaker 4: oh my god, especially in the writer's room.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it just sends to me like what
Speaker 1: he's really saying is like I want a system where
Speaker 1: being a white, straight male means I get stuff and
Speaker 1: that is never questioned. Like that's the system that I want,
Speaker 1: Like that's what That's what I think we should have.
Speaker 1: And just to be real for a second, like I
Speaker 1: almost didn't include this story in the roundup, but it's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a smoke screen because I really
Speaker 1: wanted to read some of these comments that Deadline published
Speaker 1: from women writers and writers of color about this, because
Speaker 1: they are hilarious. They're a plus gold. So Deadline did
Speaker 1: a roundup of people responding to this lawsuit. Here a
Speaker 1: couple of my favorites. So a lot of them point
Speaker 1: out that this person is a script coordinator and he
Speaker 1: is demanding that he bypassed like script supervisor and be
Speaker 1: made straight like just I want to go right to
Speaker 1: the top. I demand to be made a producer. This
Speaker 1: quote that mansuming CBS is also demanding they make him
Speaker 1: a producer. If that's not peak whiteness, I don't know
Speaker 1: what the fuck else is Lomo? Please somebody go find
Speaker 1: a writing sample of his that's from Kelly Terrell, which
Speaker 1: I thought was really funny.
Speaker 3: Wait, really quick, I've never heard somebody say Lomo before.
Speaker 2: Oh is it l m ao?
Speaker 5: I just say lbao, but maybe oh, I don't know.
Speaker 5: It was like, maybe that's a is that a millennial?
Speaker 1: Just wait, I'm realizing I have always said it in
Speaker 1: my head and I've never said it out loud, And
Speaker 1: now I'm wondering if that's like not a millennial thing,
Speaker 1: if it's just a Bridget Todd thing, that's just like
Speaker 1: how I've always said it.
Speaker 2: Wait, I'm gonna listen to this.
Speaker 1: I mean, I say, wait, here's Okay, So I found
Speaker 1: an ask a Reddit how do you pronounce lmao?
Speaker 2: Top comment? If you're one of those people who say.
Speaker 1: Lmao or l l out loud rather than laughing that
Speaker 1: I think it's pronounced, Please disown me.
Speaker 2: So we'll never know. We'll never know, you know what,
Speaker 2: Keep this in.
Speaker 1: I want this as a digital record of people get
Speaker 1: back to us.
Speaker 3: Do you say lamo? Do you say l m a O?
Speaker 3: Is it a?
Speaker 2: Do you say something else?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Do you say something else? God? I but yeah, no.
Speaker 4: I think that's what I'm gonna start telling people for Like,
Speaker 4: career advice now is if if you want to be
Speaker 4: if you want to get a producer gig, you just
Speaker 4: gotta sue a major.
Speaker 2: Just sue them and demand it.
Speaker 3: My heart.
Speaker 2: Uh yes, I hope you're listening.
Speaker 3: That truly? Yeah, that is that is That is peak whiteness.
Speaker 3: Uh as a as a white person.
Speaker 1: This is my favorite from Miles Warden that Seal Team
Speaker 1: lawsuit reads like a series of mad libs, which is
Speaker 1: ironic because he's mad at libs. Oh chuckling to myself
Speaker 1: about that one earlier today, it.
Speaker 3: Is seal teab Like, I've never heard of this show.
Speaker 2: I've never heard of it.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the kind of show that like
Speaker 1: somebody's dad probably watches, Like it's like I think it's
Speaker 1: about like it's got David Bryannis.
Speaker 4: It seems like it has a very very dedicated like
Speaker 4: fandom on tumbler somewhere, and then everybody else who watches it, yeah,
Speaker 4: is like somebody's dad.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I'm sure this reminds me of like
Speaker 1: there are so many shows when I'm flipping channels, and
Speaker 1: part part of it is because I just came back
Speaker 1: from visiting my parents and like they're watching stuff I've
Speaker 1: never even heard of, Like we live in such different
Speaker 1: like television watching silos. I guess like my dad has
Speaker 1: gotten really into this show about a bodyguard. I think
Speaker 1: it might as be called Bodyguard and it's all about
Speaker 1: a guy who's a bodyguard. And it's like part of
Speaker 1: me is like are these real shows? Like where are
Speaker 1: you getting these are real?
Speaker 4: There's just like an endless list of I feel like
Speaker 4: there also is like that's what I would saying. I
Speaker 4: remember like I had a friend telling me about a
Speaker 4: show that was very very similar to this, but I yeah,
Speaker 4: I feel like there's just like an endless like list
Speaker 4: of like military, police, firefighter, whatever.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it is sort of like one of
Speaker 1: those things where when did we decide that the main show,
Speaker 1: the main occupations for television shows is gonna be firefighter
Speaker 1: police maybe like doctor, nurse, like military person.
Speaker 3: There's too many police shows. Oh my god, they're way,
Speaker 3: way too many police shows.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you.
Speaker 1: Come spend a weekend at the Todds House in Richmond, Virginia,
Speaker 1: and you will, like it's all they watch, like the shield,
Speaker 1: that this, that, the blue line like It's like, I
Speaker 1: had no idea.
Speaker 2: My parents were so into this, into this like law
Speaker 2: enforcement universe. I had no ideas. Was like new information
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: So as hilarious as all of these these comments on
Speaker 1: this lawsuit are, there were two that I wanted to
Speaker 1: highlight that really made me think. One is from Britney
Speaker 1: Van Horn, who says, deeply embarrassing on the script coordinator's part,
Speaker 1: But everyone who uses diversity as a quote easy excuse
Speaker 1: for not hiring or promoting people are complicit here too.
Speaker 1: Diversity is way too often used as an excuse for
Speaker 1: not hiring or promoting someone you had no intention to hire.
Speaker 1: And that really rings true to me that you know,
Speaker 1: this person who issuing CBS was a script coordinator for
Speaker 1: like fifteen years, right, Like I can understand being annoyed
Speaker 1: at never being promoted after like fifteen years, never getting
Speaker 1: to be a producer. But and like if you're someone
Speaker 1: who was a manager of this person, being like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: they want a diverse writer's room, that's why you didn't
Speaker 1: get hired.
Speaker 2: I could totally see people saying.
Speaker 1: That as just an easy way to avoid having to
Speaker 1: have a conversation that's like, actually, your work isn't cutting it,
Speaker 1: you can't hack it. We're not gonna promote you for
Speaker 1: whatever reason. We're not interested in, you know, you having
Speaker 1: a bigger role in what we're doing here. Like I
Speaker 1: do think Britney's point is really interesting. And this one
Speaker 1: from Friend of the Show Ish Danny Fernandez. She used
Speaker 1: to have a podcast on iHeart. I don't know if
Speaker 1: she does anymore, but I friend in my head, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I don't know, she's never been on
Speaker 1: the show, But Danny call us, we love you, Danny tweeted.
Speaker 1: UCLA releases a diversity report every single year. Anyone can
Speaker 1: google it. White men are the majority of writers in Hollywood.
Speaker 1: They make up the majority of writers room. This is
Speaker 1: not an opinion. This is a fact. You lose jobs
Speaker 1: to each other, to other white people, and that I
Speaker 1: think is so key because Danny is right. The numbers,
Speaker 1: as you said, Joey, are super clear. That it is
Speaker 1: not white men who are underrepresented in the entertainment industry
Speaker 1: is just not It's just a fact. And so you
Speaker 1: cannot sue your way into a career. Nobody is owed
Speaker 1: a career in entertainment. And you know who knows this
Speaker 1: better than anyone. The black people and queer people and
Speaker 1: trans people and women and other people of color who
Speaker 1: are underrepresented in the field. The people who drop out
Speaker 1: after ten years because they're like, yeah, I'm never gonna
Speaker 1: move up. I have hit this ceiling of as high
Speaker 1: as I can go and so I'm leaving. That happens
Speaker 1: time and time again. And so being told that it
Speaker 1: is people of color and other marginalized people who dominate
Speaker 1: the industry, not only is it just like laughable, but
Speaker 1: it just like flies in the face of the cold
Speaker 1: hard facts.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I mean, I don't know what the deal
Speaker 4: is with this case, but like I'm willing to guess
Speaker 4: that most of the writers in the writer's room are
Speaker 4: probably also white men. And yeah, it is like there's
Speaker 4: so many different issues here. It is super super hard
Speaker 4: to work in the entertainment industry. It's super hard to
Speaker 4: work in the film industry.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: I know that firsthand. I know that through friends experiences.
Speaker 4: I think this sort of phenomenon and again, yeah, like
Speaker 4: a lot of these these companies and these production houses
Speaker 4: that have a stake in or that it kind of
Speaker 4: and again, like to go to that point about like
Speaker 4: diversity being an easy kind of excuse quote unquote. The
Speaker 4: issue isn't the the you know, the people that are
Speaker 4: being hired for quote unquote diversity, if that is actually
Speaker 4: happening oftentimes it's not.
Speaker 3: The problem is.
Speaker 4: These studios that are like, look, I don't have to
Speaker 4: have yeah, again, like I don't even really have to
Speaker 4: be doing the work of trying to hire more people
Speaker 4: from diverse backgrounds or people that aren't just white men.
Speaker 3: I can just say that diversity is the.
Speaker 4: Issue, and then I get out of here without really
Speaker 4: like having to deal with all of the bigger issues
Speaker 4: with like Hollywood and how it operates and but yeah,
Speaker 4: it's it's yeah, nobody's owed a career these same people,
Speaker 4: like yeah, it is like again it's coming from these
Speaker 4: same people that are oftentimes very like pull yourself up
Speaker 4: by your bootstraps kind of thing.
Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, I know.
Speaker 4: This is the dark side of all of this, is
Speaker 4: that a lot of times it doesn't really work out.
Speaker 4: And yeah, yeah again again, all of this to say,
Speaker 4: you go to the actual reality and the actual numbers,
Speaker 4: like white cispen are still the dominant force in Hollywood,
Speaker 4: like that that's a fact.
Speaker 1: Yes, As I was reading about this kind of to
Speaker 1: your point, do you remember how there was a time
Speaker 1: when folks like this would say things like facts don't
Speaker 1: care about your feelings unless that feeling is I would
Speaker 1: like a job please.
Speaker 2: I feel like I have been overlooked.
Speaker 3: Actually, facts don't care about your feelings.
Speaker 6: Like I'm saying it right, it's the same like all
Speaker 6: of these idiots Ben Shapiro and whatnot, the people that
Speaker 6: are like they're all failed screenwriters.
Speaker 4: Like it's these people that want to blame their personal
Speaker 4: failings on quote unquote diversity and like marginalized people. And
Speaker 4: then they turn around and they're like actually, you guys
Speaker 4: are the ones doing that. You're the ones being snowflakes
Speaker 4: and being like your feelings and not playing attention to facts.
Speaker 3: It's it's so weird.
Speaker 4: It's such a like victim complex that I don't know,
Speaker 4: Like I don't know what kind of how removed from
Speaker 4: reality slash just completely in your own head narcissists you
Speaker 4: have to be to kind of view the world that way.
Speaker 2: But here we are, here, we are. Well, good luck
Speaker 2: on your lawsuit. Yeah, I will say that when I
Speaker 2: found out.
Speaker 1: That Ben Shapiro got his start as a screenwriter and
Speaker 1: it didn't work out, so much click into place for me.
Speaker 4: It was like, oh, he's just mad that people didn't
Speaker 4: like his stuff. Like so many of these people are
Speaker 4: just mad that people don't think they're funny or interesting
Speaker 4: or what. Elon Musk didn't try to be a screenwrinner,
Speaker 4: but so much screenwriter, but so much of his like
Speaker 4: thing is just that he is. He is so mad
Speaker 4: that people don't find him funny. I all of Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't know. There, I think we just need to
Speaker 4: full on like like no more white men making entertainment
Speaker 4: period for like a couple of years.
Speaker 3: Like actually, obviously think we should do that.
Speaker 4: I know that's what they think is going on already,
Speaker 4: but I think we actually need to do that, like
Speaker 4: we need to reset.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, imagine if it really happened, like you
Speaker 1: want to. You want to talk about like this guy
Speaker 1: being a cry baby. Now, imagine if what he what
Speaker 1: he is laying out is happening.
Speaker 2: Imagine if that happened for real.
Speaker 1: Just just just marinate on that for a moment, Listeners, the.
Speaker 4: Most insufferable man you know has lost his hobby, and
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: I have had to deal with a lot of men
Speaker 3: in film. It is terrible.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. We need to do a whole like.
Speaker 3: Just dish out all I want to.
Speaker 2: I want to.
Speaker 1: I want to hear it. You can, we can anonymize it,
Speaker 1: but I want to hear it. I'm sure I can
Speaker 1: only imagine for sure. So the last thing I want
Speaker 1: to do before we end is folks may know someone
Speaker 1: that we had on the show, one of our earliest guests.
Speaker 1: I think it was maybe the first interview I did
Speaker 1: for There Are No Girls on the Internet with Shafika Hudson,
Speaker 1: the creator of the hashtag and movement Your slip is
Speaker 1: showing passed away, and we did an episode where put
Speaker 1: her episode back on the feed and I shared some
Speaker 1: of my thoughts and I just wanted to say I've
Speaker 1: really been wrestling with her death and the loss of
Speaker 1: her and what it means for the internet and social media.
Speaker 1: It feels like the end of a period, like thinking
Speaker 1: about it, and it was like, oh yeah, back when
Speaker 1: Shafika was, you know, doing her thing on the internet,
Speaker 1: it was a time when I was really active online
Speaker 1: and it felt really fun and exciting, and it was
Speaker 1: just really not just mourning her, but also mourning that
Speaker 1: the death of that time online. And I got reached
Speaker 1: out to by Penelope Green, who is a writer at
Speaker 1: The New York Times who was doing an obituary on
Speaker 1: Shaffika Hudson. And Penelope was great. We had many conversations
Speaker 1: about Chaffika's life and her work, and she said that
Speaker 1: the reason she was getting in touch with me was
Speaker 1: because somebody, I think a listener of this podcast reached
Speaker 1: out through I guess the New York Times has like
Speaker 1: an obituary request form where you can flag people that
Speaker 1: have recently passed that you think the New York Times
Speaker 1: should write an obituary on, which led to Penelope Green
Speaker 1: contacting me, which led to the obituary. So we'll put
Speaker 1: a link to the obituary in the show notes. I
Speaker 1: believe it will be in print in the New York Times.
Speaker 1: If you are the person who reached out to Penelope
Speaker 1: Green on behalf of Shaffika Hudson to get her obituary
Speaker 1: in the New York Times, I just want to say
Speaker 1: thank you. You're probably not listening to this, but it
Speaker 1: really meant a lot to me, and it really meant
Speaker 1: a lot of people who knew Shaffiica and work with
Speaker 1: Shafka and Shafika, to whom Shabika touched their.
Speaker 2: Lives in some way.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of my disappointments is that I
Speaker 1: don't feel like Shaffika's loss was mourned by the tech
Speaker 1: community and the disinformation community as I think it deserves
Speaker 1: to be mourned.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 1: Taking part in this series of interviews with Penelope Green
Speaker 1: from New York Times was really personally cathartic for me
Speaker 1: and gave me a lot of closure on that. And
Speaker 1: I think it's really important that Shaffika Hudson's name and
Speaker 1: legacy is memorialized in this way. So all of that
Speaker 1: is to say, if you are that person, it really
Speaker 1: meant a lot to me.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Penelope Green for reaching out to me
Speaker 1: and other people who knew and work with Shafeica, and
Speaker 1: for writing such a comprehensive and beautiful tribute to somebody
Speaker 1: who I just thought was fucking great and is no
Speaker 1: longer here.
Speaker 2: And folks can.
Speaker 1: Read the obituary in the show notes, or you can
Speaker 1: pick up a paper. I think it might be being
Speaker 1: published today. It's Thursday now, but Friday when you hear this.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I have a lot of people to thank
Speaker 1: for what ended up being a moment of personal disappointment
Speaker 1: that I get to now sort of process with something
Speaker 1: that feels good. So thank you, and thank you Joey
Speaker 1: for for being here and for listening.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Of course happy to be here. And yeah,
Speaker 3: totally echo what you said.
Speaker 4: You know, the work that Shafika did is just so
Speaker 4: foundational to a lot of the stuff that we cover
Speaker 4: on here, and I think, you know, it's really it's
Speaker 4: really important to uplift those stories and to see you know,
Speaker 4: the New York Times spotlighting this. So yeah, absolutely echo
Speaker 4: with that. But yeah, of course always happy to be
Speaker 4: talk about the chaos of the world.
Speaker 1: Uh with you same and thanks to all of you
Speaker 1: for listening. I will see you on the Internet. If
Speaker 1: you're looking for ways to support the show, check out
Speaker 1: our merch store at tangody dot com slash store. Got
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just
Speaker 1: want to say hi, You can read us at Hello
Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for
Speaker 1: today's episode at tenggody dot com. There Are No Girls
Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me bridgetpod. It's a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by Joey pat
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our
Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd.
Speaker 2: If you want to help us grow, grate and review
Speaker 2: us on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.