WEBVTT - Tracy Fullerton: Video Games Innovator 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:08.240 You're trying to understand what makes us thrive? What is 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:12.560 it about life that inspires us beyond just gaining things? 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.920 What is it that will make our lives more beautiful, 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:21.239 more interesting, and more successful? From uh philosophical point of view, 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.760 That was Tracy Fullerton explaining the thinking behind a video 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:32.479 game she created called Walden, named after the book by 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:37.880 Henry David th Row. Walden was released in and went 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.159 on to become a bestseller and award winner. Projects like 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.920 Walden have made Tracy Fullerton one of the most impactful 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:51.520 and innovative game designers around. I'm Miland Revere and this 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.480 is Senecas On Women to Hear. We are bringing you 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:59.880 one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:04.640 women you need to hear. As a game designer and 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:10.640 an educator, Tracy Fullerton is influencing new generations of game designers. 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.400 She is the former director of the famous USC Games 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:20.360 Program and she heads up the USC Game Innovation Lab. 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:26.480 Working with artists Bill Viola, Tracy created The Night Journey, 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.480 a video game that has been exhibited in museums around 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:35.679 the world. Listen and learn why Tracy Fullerton is one 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:44.120 of Seneca's On women to hear. I am speaking today 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.760 with Tracy Fullerton, one of the most influential game designers. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:53.080 Welcome Tracy. We're looking forward to this conversation. It's great 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.880 to be here. Thanks for having me. Now, you're one 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.840 of the top video game designers out there. What ex 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.320 I to you about game design? What do people not 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.040 understand about the power and potential of gaming or what 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.600 do they understand? Well, I think, you know, when we 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.160 say people, that's a broad term. So there's many people 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.360 who do understand uh, the sort of wonderful potential of games, 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.320 and those would be a players of games, people who 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:24.440 are already enjoying this medium for all that it has 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:29.000 to offer. I would say that there is, however, a 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.600 stigma when when we think of games, often the first 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.600 thing that that jumps to mind are very violent games, 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:43.520 games that perhaps are uh that don't show us immediately 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.720 some of the more interesting qualities that I think, uh, 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:52.280 playful experiences have to offer. And uh yeah, So for me, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:58.440 that's the interesting thing is uh really trying to um 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.640 not only make games that are diving into new areas, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.640 but also to help folks in the public who aren't 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.840 yet accustomed to thinking of games. This way to broaden 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.600 their horizons makes a lot of sense. And I know 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.200 for many years you were head of the famous USC 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.160 Games program and one of the things you achieved, which 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.200 is of great interest to us at Seneca Women, was 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.600 to bring more women into the program. Yes, and I 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.840 understand at one point they actually outnumbered men, which I 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:34.320 think in gaming is extraordinary. So why do we need 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.720 women in gaming and how did you manage to increase 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.040 their numbers? That's a great question. So I think that 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.720 you know what we need is diversity in gaming. We 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:48.720 did focus on bringing more women into our program early on, 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.600 but now we're actually focused on bringing in a wider 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:56.480 range of folks from different races, ethnicities, backgrounds, et cetera. 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:01.440 We actually recently started a fellowship up for black and 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.960 Indigenous students to support their growth in the program. So 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.960 specifically in terms of women, of course, that's something that's 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.880 very near and dear to my heart, because I wanted 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:18.400 to foster a community where more women creative backgrounds could 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:21.359 feel that they could come and be trained to have 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.440 a voice and have a career path in the games industry. 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.000 And interestingly, I think it's quite simple how you do 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.919 this is you build a community that is based on 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.359 respect and inclusiveness where people can do great work. And 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:40.880 then you know, we had some early successes of some 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.680 wonderful women designers coming out of the program and starting 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.920 companies and having great success, and that sort of feeds 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:53.360 back in on itself when we see role models and 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.440 then more people come to the program, etcetera, etcetera, And 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.839 it is a positive feedback cycle that I hope begins 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.000 to extend into the industry itself. What kind of skills 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.240 sets does one need? Wow, that's such a deep and 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.200 rich question. There are so many different ways that one 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.800 can participate in the games industry. So when we think 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.440 of game designers and game developers, some of the first 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.920 skills that come to mind obviously are programming, uh, and 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.279 then obviously art, But there are so many more skills 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.640 that I think people don't think of right away. So 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.200 for example, um, there are people who are musicians and 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:36.200 audio designers. Um, there are people who are the designers 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.360 of the actual concept, right, so what is the player 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:41.520 thinking and feeling and what are they going to be doing? 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.280 Those are really what we call game designers, And that's 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.599 not necessarily it can be but it's not necessarily technical. 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:52.320 It's really more about psychology. It's really more about understanding 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:57.720 what the players motivated by and designing experiences that will 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.040 compel them and want them to play right. There's also 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.480 business skills that one might have. So many of our students, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.280 for examples, start their own companies, so learning business skills 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:14.120 and becoming an entrepreneur or becoming a producer or executive 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.560 at a larger company that's already established in the industry. 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.640 These are past that that folks can take. And then 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.520 there are user research skills. So just as an example, 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.080 you know, there are people who study human computer interface 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:34.160 and user research so that they can measure the effects 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.880 of games and how games are working with the players, 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:41.680 and what's successful and what's not successful, and they evaluate 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.120 that and then they bring their findings back into the 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:49.440 design process so that we can produce more successful games. 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.839 So it's really quite arrange. It really is. Now. I 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.120 know you talking about having your own business, and I 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.520 know that you have your own research centers. The Game 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.560 Innovation Lab tell us about that. What are the goals 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.839 for the lab? What do you do? So the Game 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.600 Innovation Lab was founded actually back in two thousand four 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.840 with a gift from Electronic Arts, and the mission of 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.800 the Lab was to push the boundaries of what we 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.680 perceived as play and it always has that's remained our mission. So, 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.480 you know, in the early days of the Lab, it 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.520 was hard to imagine, for example, indie games having much 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:33.240 of an influence in the industry. Some of our earliest 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:37.600 projects that came out of the Lab included games like Cloud, 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.200 which then started a company called That Game Company, and 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.680 that Game Company has gone on to produce genre defining 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:50.000 games that are all about connecting people. They're about exploring 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:54.280 emotions that have never been considered important in games like 0:07:54.440 --> 0:08:01.320 Wonder and a kind of community and respect for the players. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.360 So these emotional games, these are things that now a 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.240 lot of people aspire to make, but very early on 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.000 in the growth of the Lab, this had not been 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.800 something that was really much thought of in the industry. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.280 We've also done a lot of work in learning in games, 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.800 so we have pushed on the boundaries of how games 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:27.720 can be considered either spaces or say even almost texts, 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:32.400 playable texts for educational settings. And so in that regard, 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.760 we work with teachers, we work with students, and we 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:41.160 try to create games that illuminate for the players the 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:47.440 same kind of ideas, critical ideas, critical thinking possibilities as say, 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.960 one might get if they were reading a piece of literature. 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:54.120 So games and learning games as artworks. We we've made 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.400 games with world renowned artists such as Bill Viola. We 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.800 made a game called The Night Journey, which has been 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:06.680 exhibited around the world and numerous museums. And this is 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:13.120 the idea where games themselves may take another place in 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:15.840 in culture, and we may think of them as actual 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:22.080 artistic expressions and experiences rather than say, just commercial media. 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:26.720 We've also we've made games that are more political in nature, 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.479 and games that really look to build certain types of communities. 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.600 So all these come together with the idea that the 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.240 lab is there to push the boundaries of what we 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.920 think of is play and where play really sits in culture. 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.480 And does the designer usually come up with his or 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:51.840 her idea of what kind of game maybe a terrific innovation. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.120 Is it more of a group process? How does that 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.960 work in terms of the stimuli if you will, Yeah, 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.920 there's a lot of different ways that work. So as 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.680 an example, the art game that I was talking about 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.280 with Bill Viola. That idea came from Bill and he 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.880 wanted to make a game about the spiritual journey, and 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.520 so that was a collaboration between myself and Bill Viola 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.319 and the team at the Lab. On the other hand, 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.680 my game Walden, which is based on the work of 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:28.560 Henry David Thorow, was a personal project that began with 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:34.320 a question that I asked about how we might understand 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:39.280 and play for ourselves throws experiment in living simply. Uh. 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.240 Some of the other projects that we've done have been 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:47.199 more group oriented or come as responses to say, for example, 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.439 calls from the community outside. We've done a lot of 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.160 work in games and health, specifically the work of Mary 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.839 Tina gutsis where she's answering some of the needs of 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:04.320 different calls for games in neuroscience and social work, for example. 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:10.280 Really interesting. You know, speaking to guests like yourself, I 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.000 often wonder, you know, what got them into this. So 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.800 let's go back a bit. How did you get into 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.320 gaming in the first place. Well, it's an interesting question 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.400 because I you know, when I was growing up, there 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.120 were no video games when I was very young. Uh, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.120 you know, I think Pong didn't come out till I 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.640 was I don't know, eleven or twelve, it seems like, um. 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.240 And so, you know, I grew up in uh, I guess, 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.640 a very different kind of environment where we spent a 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.280 lot of time making our own fund. Um. You know, 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.200 my father's garage was a place where you could, you know, 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.240 find lots of stuff to nail together and you know, 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.280 make all sorts of contraptions, and we would make theater 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.200 sets and um, we made a telegraph that you know, 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.160 went across our neighborhood and things like that. And so 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:07.800 we're always making our own fund. And then as video 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.520 games emerged, and even more importantly as personal computers. You know, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.880 my parents bought a personal computer for us very early on, 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.160 a Commodore six or four for those of you out 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.280 there who are as old as I am. And there 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.439 were magazines you could buy where you could they had 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.880 blocks of code in them and you could type them 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.240 in and make things happen on the on the computer. 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:37.040 And that really opened my eyes to the possibilities of technology, uh, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.880 computer technology specifically. But I was a kid who put 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.079 on plays. I was a kid who I made Super 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:47.760 eight movies, and you know, drew comic books and wrote 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.360 stories and I was always making things, and so I 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.280 kind of, I guess, fell into gaming because it was, 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.880 you know, eventually the one career where I could use 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.640 all of those interest together. And you said that very well, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.400 because it's both tech skills as well as the enormous 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.640 creativity and amazing possibilities come out of that mix. I guess. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.760 I think storytelling is a really big part of game design, 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:20.320 and for me as uh, it's a really big part 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:25.560 of what drives me storytelling and experience making creating things 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.160 for other people to enjoy. So what was it like 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.200 in those early days of game design for you? Did 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:37.320 you face obstacles where women looked at as you know, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.360 why are you into game design? What was it like? 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.880 So there are two or multiple ways to look at this. 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:49.880 One way is I myself didn't face many hurdles. In fact, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.760 I guess I was sort of precocious. But I you know, 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:57.080 I went into the industry UM and I almost immediately 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.199 was made a creative director. First of all, I had 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:04.320 great mentor and I was almost immediately put in charge 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.560 of the design of of projects UM. I had training 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:14.160 in filmmaking. I had gone to USC in their film school, 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.600 and so I knew how to run projects. I knew 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.840 to break projects down and and you know, make them 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:26.160 happen right, And I had my own self training and 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.240 uh in terms of technology, and so it was a 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.480 very unique time because there really weren't a lot of 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:38.600 people who had that combination of creative skills and technical skills. 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.840 And so I was very lucky. And I guess I 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.640 was also a bit Uh. I didn't even understand how 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.000 lucky I was. I just sort of expected to be 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.880 put in charge of creative projects. Well that's you know, 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:57.800 having confidence is important too, it is I these days 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.160 I kind of wonder how how in the world old 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.920 I got that confidence. But I was put in charge 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:08.160 and I never expected anything otherwise. Uh So, so that 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.040 was one That's one thing for me. But I will 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.800 say this because I know many people, especially now, struggle 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.400 more than I did to find success. I will say 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.120 that there were times in my career where I absolutely 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.920 noticed that I was not being promoted as fast as 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.560 some of the my peers who were who were men. 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.400 And I also was not listened to uh and and 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:39.600 those things they matter, right, the kind of respectfulness matters. Um. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.920 It was harder for me as a president. When I 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.800 started my own company, it's harder for me to raise money. 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.360 In fact, finally, our strategy as a company was to 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:54.200 take the same pitch and let my business partner give 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:59.200 it and wham, we got the money. So those things matter. 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.760 And one of the reasons that, you know, bringing more 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:09.560 diverse voices into the industry, into academia where people are trained, 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.080 and because that is a pipeline into the industry. That's 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.800 why it's so important to me to be part of 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.880 that process. You know, you're you're mentioning what it was 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.160 like when you were trying to get the investment money, 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.720 and that's something we hear repeatedly from women entrepreneurs, and 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:31.000 the shortfall in terms of access to investment is so 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.320 much more difficult. Yes, it's shocking. Really, it's so much 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:40.359 greater in terms of just how big it is. Senecas 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.800 one hundred women to hear will be back after the 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:57.680 short break. You know you mentioned Walden, Yes, your extraordinary 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.200 hit game, but you didn't mention that it got very 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.639 wide press coverage when it came out, not just in 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.240 gaming journals but everywhere, from the New York Times just 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.639 Smithsonian Magazine. It was even named game of the year. 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.760 What was it about Walden that made it so different 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.280 or gave it the receptivity it got? And did you 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.960 have a clue when you you PopEd for this kind 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.639 of success? I would imagine, But did you expect that 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.440 you were onto something? Well? I hope, uh, I hope 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.560 that I was onto something. Uh. Let me answer the 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.679 question about what makes it so different first, because I 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.479 think on the surface, it's on the surface, it seems 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:48.200 obvious that it is a strange little game about a philosopher, 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.840 when if you tried to name another game about a philosopher, 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.160 you might be hard pressed to do so. Um, it's 0:17:56.200 --> 0:18:01.439 a game where you play as Hen David Thorough. You 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:06.679 go to the woods to act out his experiment in living, 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.840 and you, you know, are seeking not only to just 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.280 survive in those woods, as as you might in many games. 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:19.480 Many games are have survival simulations at their core, But 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:23.360 you're not just trying to survive in the woods of Walden. Frankly, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.800 that's a very simple thing to do, because he really 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.800 wasn't that far away from family and friends. But you're 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.919 trying to understand what makes us thrive? H What is 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.560 it about life that inspires us that, you know, beyond 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.560 just gaining things, what what is it that will make 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.760 our lives more beautiful, more interesting and more successful from 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.919 a philosophical point of view? And so, uh, that is 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.440 what makes the game different. What makes the game different 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:56.199 is that it asks, I think, a question that I 0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:00.080 don't think I've seen another game ask. Um. And so 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.560 when I set out to design it, I I had 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.040 First of all, I was a little bit nervous, right, 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.280 And second of all, I had no money. Um, there 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.280 was no funding. I started designing a game in two 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.680 thousand and seven, and I just brought it to the 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.520 folks in the lab and I said, listen, I've been 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:23.199 thinking about this for a while. I had really really 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:25.480 thought about wanting to do it in two thousand two, 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.840 and I just hadn't seen a way forward. But I 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:30.879 brought it to the you know, folks who worked in 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:32.879 the lab, and I said, listen, I'd like to try something. 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.359 Let's let's all read this book together, and let's have 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.719 a kind of a workshop, a weekly workshop where we 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.760 work on ideas about how we might bring it to 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.040 a game format. And we did. We started with a 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.200 group of volunteers and we did what we called paper prototyping, 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:53.080 which is you make essentially board game versions of your ideas. 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:57.520 It allows you to do very cheap um investigation. We 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.639 did that, and we then began and to make very simple, 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.760 rough digital prototypes. And we were about five years into 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.240 the project before there was any inkling on the horizon 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.800 that someone might be interested in funding a game like this. UM. 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.520 Around that time, things were changing, you know, and and 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.720 I think we in the lab and and and other 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:25.080 groups were part of that change. You know. I talked 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:29.040 about making sure, you know, getting the word out to 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.199 people that games can be different, and some of the 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.160 success of the early projects of our lab and other 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:40.199 other folks started to make that change possible. UM. And 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.600 so it was about midway through that programs like the 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:49.760 UM National endow Humanities began their digital projects for the 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.720 public that specifically mentioned that they would accept games interesting, 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.600 and the National Endowment for the Arts changed the wording 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.640 of their Media Arts grants to include the word games. 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.800 And so that made it possible for us to actually 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:13.119 take our ideas and with them supported now to to 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:17.240 really execute in a way that would make the game 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:21.520 an actual viable project to bring to the public. So 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.520 you know, in a way the game was. It began 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.040 with an inkling of a question that I asked, and 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.320 then it became in many ways a a standard bearer 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.600 for the types of games that might be made under 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.679 the new way of of conceiving of them and the 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.800 new support available to them from various sources, and it 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.399 raised gaming to a different level. At the same time, 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:48.960 I didn't know that about both the n A and 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.200 n e H. They have been great supporters of our work. 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.160 They also supported the Night Journey project with Bill Viola, 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.679 that's the National Down for the Arts did that, and 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.520 the National Down for Humanity Ease. Even after we published 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.560 the commercial game, they gave us some exploratory funding to 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:11.720 build an educational version of Walden, which is something we're 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:15.120 working on now, and this is free for teachers, and 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.399 many many teachers have been using the beta versions during 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.480 COVID and writing to us because these are humanities teachers, 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:27.639 you know, English language Arts, also social emotional learning, and 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:31.479 the writing to us and saying we've never experienced games 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.520 made for our classrooms before. Mostly they be made for say, 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:41.440 science classes. Games do very well in STEM, but the 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:45.000 teachers that we speak to our you know, say English 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.480 teachers who are so excited to find a game that 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:53.400 brings the Book of Walden to life for their students 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.120 when it may not seem like Walden is something that 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:04.679 is topical, but the themes of living simply close to nature, 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:09.040 understanding you know what it is that we need not 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:13.639 just to survive but to thrive. Also concern for the environment, 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:19.160 a sense of civic responsibility. All of these themes that 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:25.040 run throughout the book are exceptionally topical, exceptionally so absolutely 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:29.840 what a wonderful not just void that has been filled, 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:34.199 but an opportunity to have access to Walden as a 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.760 game that can make that kind of difference in somebody's life. Clearly, 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:41.200 Walden is not a violent or sexually exploit of game. 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.000 It's just the polar opposite of all of that. But 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:49.119 would you agree, Tracy, that the gaming industry has a 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:54.119 longstanding reputation for being hostile to women players? Is that 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.439 still fair? I think we need to sort of separate that. 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.200 So the industry itself, I think is does not set 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:03.520 out to be hostile to women players. However, it does 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:07.360 cater to male players, if that makes any sense. And 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.640 so I would say that what does happen is because 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.800 it does cater to specifically young male players. There is 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:18.880 a sense of entitlement on the part of those players, 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:22.480 and that entitlement has in the age of social media, 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:26.119 which we know UM has a cutting edge to it, 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:34.439 UM has fostered a kind of uh toxic community that 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:38.000 is hostile to many women players. And I think that's 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:40.679 a that's a shame, and I put that on the 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:46.960 game industry. You know, the industry needs to stop catering 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:54.760 to one specific public and stop defining themselves as UM 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:58.040 focused on that particular public, because they are creating a 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:01.560 sense of entitlement in those players, and they need to 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:07.400 realize that play is universally human and we play across 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:09.760 all of our ages. We played differently when we're children 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:12.680 than we do when we're adults, but we certainly play right. 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:16.040 And one only has to look at the success of 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:22.160 something is crazy as word, for example, which is UM, 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.800 you know, just making the rounds of of of social media, 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:30.119 which is just a word guessing game, right, and that 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:33.720 so many adults are captivated. You get one chance a 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:37.160 day to guess a word, and it's a kind of 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:42.600 intellectual mind play that people enjoy. It so everyone plays. 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:46.840 That's that's the key here. Everyone plays during times like this. 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:50.320 By the way, everyone's played more. This has been a 0:25:50.359 --> 0:25:54.320 fantastic year for games. And one of the huge irony 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:57.960 is it's been just an amazing year for games, you know, 0:25:58.040 --> 0:26:00.800 because what have we to do when we're trapped in 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:04.640 our in our houses but to play games, right And so, 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:08.840 you know, for me, I think it's important for the 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.000 industry to grow up a little bit and understand that 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:17.320 they are making experiences for a multitude of publics and markets. 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:21.520 And are they thinking very narrowly that this is where 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:25.560 their business lies and not thinking about all the other 0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:29.719 publics that are out there. Yes, And I think that's changing. 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:31.560 So I want to be fair. Um, I think there 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:34.080 are you know, there are definitely people in the industry 0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:40.240 who are thinking beyond that sort of core gamer market 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:45.400 that they've always serve, but they haven't really come out 0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:49.000 and based and and and said hey, you're only one 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:51.199 of our one of our groups. They don't want to 0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:54.879 lose that core, that core public, right Uh. And to me, 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:56.600