Speaker 1: Oh morning. Today's episode contains spoilers for Pull.
Speaker 2: Rootose Girl, Will those Kill? Let Me Girl? Wore Those Killers?
Speaker 2: Cool with We're Girl? We We're Girl.
Speaker 3: Oh Hello, it was Jason Catepsio and I'm Rosy night.
Speaker 1: And welcome back to ext vision of the podcast. We
Speaker 1: have DVD baby Jews, movies, comics and pop culture coming
Speaker 1: even my our podcast. We're bringing three episodes. We listen
Speaker 1: news on Saturday.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay. In today's episode, like.
Speaker 4: Can I just say this is there's a crazy way
Speaker 4: to wake up in the morning, guys, because we have
Speaker 4: to wake up in the morning, watch this at nine am,
Speaker 4: and then record this episode so it would be ready
Speaker 4: for you on time. And I gotta tell you what
Speaker 4: are the craziest ways to wake up is to watch this?
Speaker 2: So I tell you about.
Speaker 5: The forty eight minute Punish your special by who apparently
Speaker 5: a right top. He wrote the bear used the ostler
Speaker 5: a couple of times in that special. Luckily that doesn't
Speaker 5: make it in here, but that will be some things
Speaker 5: you never thought you would see on a Disney production
Speaker 5: in Punisher one lost kill, So we're gonna recap it
Speaker 5: super quickly.
Speaker 4: Then we can have some general thoughts, because this is
Speaker 4: a crazy project.
Speaker 1: Crazy okay, So here's the general thoughts. The punisher is
Speaker 1: going through a mental health crisis in his basement, really
Speaker 1: not cutting, he's self cutting. He's he's he's hallucinating his family. Meanwhile, outside,
Speaker 1: there is a general mental health crisis going on in
Speaker 1: the streets of New York due to reasons that are
Speaker 1: left unclear, but are probably because of the failing and
Speaker 1: non existent mental health social safety net in the city
Speaker 1: and around the country.
Speaker 4: Let's think about toime, like, is this similar time to
Speaker 4: Dad Evil?
Speaker 2: Is this pre Dad Levil? I'm glad you was Wilson
Speaker 2: Fisk the mayor?
Speaker 1: Is it? Timeline positioning is directly follows born Against season
Speaker 1: one when he was imprisoned by Wilson Fisk. So this
Speaker 1: is about the trauma of him being in the cage,
Speaker 1: the Wilson Fisk cage. He's been out and now he's
Speaker 1: all these emotions are coming up. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: of uh unhoused individuals experiencing mental health crisis is in
Speaker 1: the streets.
Speaker 4: It's absolutely Have you seen BoA's Afraid the Ariaskta movie.
Speaker 4: It begins the same way, essentially exactly as this, it's
Speaker 4: like a Fox News nightmare. AI cup of what people
Speaker 4: think are very much like the city is in hell.
Speaker 2: You know, is so crazy to yeah, you have to
Speaker 2: stop so with all.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so it's like, you know, there's unhoused individuals
Speaker 1: coming into local coffee jobs and having mental health episodes,
Speaker 1: and at the same time there are white nationalist gangs
Speaker 1: running around killing announced individuals pets and attacking them in
Speaker 1: the streets.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so I would say as well, we actually
Speaker 4: have a lot of people who use the website.
Speaker 2: Does the dog.
Speaker 4: Die A dog dies with them doty seconds of their
Speaker 4: And you can probably go from there on where the
Speaker 4: tone is so wanting that your person who's into that.
Speaker 1: Frank Castle is disassociating. When he goes out into the streets,
Speaker 1: he's not reacting to the violence and the chaos. He
Speaker 1: just wants his coffee and his Danish and he wants
Speaker 1: to go home, and then he wants to go to
Speaker 1: the graveyard and he wants to cry at the grave
Speaker 1: of his family. He goes and is there.
Speaker 2: He has two kids. You know, I have to say sorry,
Speaker 2: I thought and he had one bot he really.
Speaker 1: Only cares about the daughter, baby girl.
Speaker 2: I have to say, like I.
Speaker 4: Am, I'm having a terrible realization here, and I'm sure
Speaker 4: many are the millennial women will have it, but like
Speaker 4: John benthal is like the exact kind of guy that
Speaker 4: you should never ever sleep with, right like.
Speaker 2: From our era.
Speaker 4: The music in this Karen, I wish you would fucking
Speaker 4: listen because like the music choices or anything.
Speaker 2: This show opens with.
Speaker 4: John Berenthal, sweaty, like Jim maxing himself to Danzig singing mother,
Speaker 4: it's like the worst guy.
Speaker 2: At the rock club.
Speaker 4: That's John Berenthal, I've realized for watching this women.
Speaker 1: And so the punisher is at the graveyard. He's kind
Speaker 1: of he's hallucinating is his family. He's seeing in graphic
Speaker 1: detail how they were murdered by the mob, and he's
Speaker 1: very sad. He he leaves the graveyard and he encounters
Speaker 1: Judas Light my mother and who's the boss and who
Speaker 1: Nucci here? She's in a wheelchair and she tells, Frank,
Speaker 1: you killed all my husband and my son and all
Speaker 1: my family.
Speaker 2: And I just want to say, you killed by one
Speaker 2: son who was a pedophile. But I was cool with
Speaker 2: him being a pedophile.
Speaker 1: Like he was a pedophile. But it wasn't true.
Speaker 4: It was a true. Yeah, they're definitely trying to lean
Speaker 4: into that goth and it's like tone here. We even
Speaker 4: get a beginning. There's a very there's a line at
Speaker 4: the beginning graphic set. Yeah, and they say, Nucci the
Speaker 4: nut cheese are you know? The nu chiese gorillas are gone?
Speaker 4: And that's because then the crazy goth and his stuff,
Speaker 4: Punished has to fight his way through like a zoo
Speaker 4: and this polar bas and gorillas and all kinds of
Speaker 4: crazy stuff. We get this nod to how fucked up
Speaker 4: the nut cheese are here? With that mentioned about.
Speaker 2: Car Loost before.
Speaker 4: By the way, Punish just stamped through this teenage boy's head.
Speaker 2: That's how we see that he killed him later on
Speaker 2: when they reveal it, like it's insane.
Speaker 1: So so the Punisher killed Manu's entire family, and she's
Speaker 1: mad and she says, guess what, Frank, She accosts him
Speaker 1: in the street, so guess what I'm coming for you.
Speaker 1: I'm sending my forces after you. Why didn't she just
Speaker 1: kill him right there? And why did she let him know?
Speaker 1: Why did she give him the heads up?
Speaker 4: She happens Barry, who could obviously just snap him in
Speaker 4: half like a twig up.
Speaker 1: Walk up behind him and just shoot him in the head.
Speaker 4: Tell sad story, then shoot him and then why. I'll
Speaker 4: tell you why. Jay said she went to Blockbuster, she
Speaker 4: got that two for one special, she got the Raid,
Speaker 4: she got Judge dread and she the two thousand dreaded
Speaker 4: very much and she said, Hey, I've got an idea.
Speaker 2: This is a cool idea.
Speaker 4: Well, if you had to kill a bunch of people
Speaker 4: in a tower block, never been done before, John Burnhor,
Speaker 4: I know you were watching The Raid. I also know
Speaker 4: you were definitely watching John Wick because there's just this
Speaker 4: kind of like my Nucci enlists like this gangs of
Speaker 4: massed killers who apparently just live in New York.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 4: I was saying in the group chat like they're gonna
Speaker 4: show this to our real life president and be like
Speaker 4: this is why you can't be nice to Zoren, Like
Speaker 4: this is how people.
Speaker 2: Think it is to live in a city if you
Speaker 2: don't live there.
Speaker 4: I honestly think this is a crazy show to release
Speaker 4: right now, Like, are you slowing my mind?
Speaker 1: No, it actually makes a lot of logical sense. It does,
Speaker 1: it does right now, which is why this is it's
Speaker 1: crazy that we live in this world. But okay, so uh,
Speaker 1: John burns All goes home and he experiences an even deeper,
Speaker 1: more intense mental health crisis, and with Karen, who is
Speaker 1: either there or not there. It's unclear at first if
Speaker 1: she was really there.
Speaker 4: They want to make they make it seem. I think
Speaker 4: like this is at least based on a memory.
Speaker 1: That he had with Yes, some kind of connection with Camp.
Speaker 4: Was there at some point, maybe she has visited him.
Speaker 4: Are so how many fucking basements does this guy?
Speaker 1: So she brings him back to the light.
Speaker 4: She's basically like, bro, if you stay alive and protect
Speaker 4: your city, I'm gonna fuck you. And he's like, are
Speaker 4: you really here? And she's like, I'm always here? Definitely,
Speaker 4: they already funk. I mean one thing, I will say
Speaker 4: the one thing that was worthwhile.
Speaker 2: This scene was actually like.
Speaker 4: The only worthwhile thing out of this special for me.
Speaker 4: Like Karen, they have such good chemistry. I love it
Speaker 4: to see that moment of I mean, John Benthal is
Speaker 4: a great actor, Like I just think like, let him
Speaker 4: stay acting. And also ironic for a man who hates
Speaker 4: naps that this special could literally just be called The
Speaker 4: Punisher needs a nap, Like literally say you know what
Speaker 4: to do if you're having hallucinations, just have a nap,
Speaker 4: Like that's the first thing, first place to start.
Speaker 2: Just go back to sleep. This man is not sleeping.
Speaker 4: We'll be back to talk more Punisher, one last kill,
Speaker 4: God help us.
Speaker 6: After the break. We're back.
Speaker 2: Maybe we're back.
Speaker 1: So Karen hallucinated. Karen basically gives Frank a pep talk
Speaker 1: and Frank snaps to it to the to the sounds
Speaker 1: of Hate Breeds Rise to My Feet, which is the
Speaker 1: favorite song of every Huntington Beach nazi.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, like, this.
Speaker 4: Is literally like even if you're a Hate Breed fan, right,
Speaker 4: and I grew up in London, there was a lot
Speaker 4: of Hate Breed fans.
Speaker 2: I grew up in the hardcore scene if you didn't know.
Speaker 4: But like, the thing to me about it that's crazy
Speaker 4: is like this specific.
Speaker 2: Song, I will be heard, this expeci will be I
Speaker 2: will be heard. This has such connotations to me. And
Speaker 2: the next like I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 4: First act of this movie, I actually thought it was
Speaker 4: really interesting thing and I was kind of involved. I
Speaker 4: really like the Karen scene from here on out, even
Speaker 4: though I love action. This they're trying to replicate that
Speaker 4: garth Ennis like cartoony violence.
Speaker 2: But I just don't know how much.
Speaker 4: Stomach myself or the general public has for a white
Speaker 4: guy with a shotgun going around the projects killing people. Now,
Speaker 4: it is a very diverse group of people that he kills.
Speaker 4: He kills a lot of white people. But there are
Speaker 4: some moments where I'm just like, what is this? Like,
Speaker 4: why does this exist? And what is it bringing us?
Speaker 1: I mean, the only way to really engage with this
Speaker 1: is either it is basically as like a Tom and Jerry.
Speaker 2: You gotta be Looney Tunes, right, That's what I think.
Speaker 1: It does kind of get there, it's at a certain point,
Speaker 1: although it is extremely graphic. So Karen gets him to
Speaker 1: his feet, he goes out just as man Nucci's forced
Speaker 1: to come in, and he goes on a massive, massive
Speaker 1: killing everybody.
Speaker 2: You gotta start with how he gets out because they're
Speaker 2: gonna set his door on fire.
Speaker 1: They stirs through like this.
Speaker 2: He's like, wait, I'm gonna wait, and he waits, and
Speaker 2: then he waits till he's on fire.
Speaker 4: Then he runs through, get saves his neighbour's little kid,
Speaker 4: and they make sure all his neighbors are people of color,
Speaker 4: so you feel less bad about when he smashes a
Speaker 4: black persson's head through a fucking glass thing and drags
Speaker 4: their throat over it.
Speaker 2: It's a very violent thing.
Speaker 4: The thing that's blowing my mind the most about this
Speaker 4: Disney went from we will never have anything that's not
Speaker 4: distinctly child friendly to we are gonna have well. I
Speaker 4: think is probably the most violent studio release of the year.
Speaker 4: I don't see any other big studio putting out anything
Speaker 4: as violent as this on that platform that any kid
Speaker 4: can access.
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of crazy.
Speaker 4: But yeah, so he goes on this crazy spring he
Speaker 4: kills people with guns, with knives, I would say too
Speaker 4: many guns.
Speaker 1: He's kills and is killing the white supremacists as well
Speaker 1: when they attack the local coffee shop, and there's an
Speaker 1: absolutely lunatine scene where he stabs a guy like a
Speaker 1: million and the neck and the guts and then everywhere
Speaker 1: and his the guy is dead and bleeding out, the
Speaker 1: skinhead guy on the on the fucking counter of the
Speaker 1: family coffee shop, and then the little the daughter of
Speaker 1: the coffee shop owner, who, of course Frank is like
Speaker 1: making connections with his own deceased daughter.
Speaker 2: And yeah, baby.
Speaker 1: Baby girl hallucinating his daughter all throughout the masker, She's like,
Speaker 1: I want to give you something. There's a dead man
Speaker 1: bleeding out five feet away and.
Speaker 4: They killed like they killed.
Speaker 2: He killed like seven people in that including.
Speaker 1: It's like an absolutely blood drenched and they.
Speaker 4: They keep being like, thank you, thank you. I'm like, no,
Speaker 4: get out, and I remember.
Speaker 1: That goes on and then at the end Frank puts
Speaker 1: on his new punisher, his new punisher uniform that we
Speaker 1: will see in Brand New Day.
Speaker 4: He has a crisp, crisp mate shape line. He's got
Speaker 4: a precision Who is doing Frank? I think where I
Speaker 4: think the doughnut shop family hooked him up after he
Speaker 4: saved them.
Speaker 2: I gotta know, is he going to Luke? So I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 4: I hate to see it because honestly, I think this
Speaker 4: is a very irresponsible piece of media.
Speaker 2: But you're looking fine us out and you know what
Speaker 2: the worst thing is. The worst thing is they end
Speaker 2: this fucking ship. Yeah it is a white supremacist. So
Speaker 2: I do want to say I'm proud of this in
Speaker 2: a general.
Speaker 4: Sense, but like the end of this episode is the
Speaker 4: old Man.
Speaker 2: Loved this guy, the old homeless dude whose hat was stolen.
Speaker 1: He sees Bubbs from Bubbs from the wire.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we basically get a full SoCal moment here, whether
Speaker 4: it begins with him having his dog murdered and then
Speaker 4: it ends with him getting a.
Speaker 1: No, no sorry the other man. You have the homeless man, who's.
Speaker 4: The homeless man at the beginning, but not Bubbs from
Speaker 4: the wire, who's the coffee shop excuse me? So then
Speaker 4: we end in a situation where the coffee shop, I mean,
Speaker 4: where the homeless guy gets his hat back from the
Speaker 4: white supremacist Frank gets it back with me.
Speaker 1: Frank is a supremacist guy.
Speaker 2: And then but then the homeless guy says, don't do it. No,
Speaker 2: he doesn't. Incorrect. The homeless guy says he well.
Speaker 1: No, first no, no, no, first no, because first Frank
Speaker 1: is like, you know what, I'm a different guy now
Speaker 1: I talk to Karen in the hallucination and I'm not
Speaker 1: just like straight up killing people willy nilly. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: let this white supremacist go. And so he's gonna let
Speaker 1: him go.
Speaker 2: He's gonna let you go.
Speaker 1: But then the guy, then, the homeless guy, says he
Speaker 1: took more from me than the just the.
Speaker 4: Hat and then and then Frank is like, okay, bitch,
Speaker 4: so I'm gonna throw a knife and this guy's back
Speaker 4: in the middle of the street, and then he just
Speaker 4: shoots this guy in the head extra judicial killing. Shoots
Speaker 4: this guy in the head, and then it goes to
Speaker 4: the Punisher logo.
Speaker 1: One thing I liked about that was the homeless guy
Speaker 1: didn't even say.
Speaker 2: What it was.
Speaker 1: No, it was literally like, well he took more from
Speaker 1: me from that than that, and the Punishers was like, Okay.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: I like the idea that he's basically gonna be like
Speaker 1: taking this guy's word for it.
Speaker 2: I like the neighborhood neighborhood attack dog.
Speaker 6: I like that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, this is an insane piece of television, and
Speaker 4: I actually really is. It feels completely crazy to release
Speaker 4: this right now, especially I feel like, oh man, I don't.
Speaker 2: Even know if I'm gonna survive the discourse from this one.
Speaker 4: But anyway, let's start our own discourse after this break.
Speaker 1: Let's say, yeah, let's take a break and we'll be
Speaker 1: river and we're back. Okay, Well, a couple of things
Speaker 1: before we really dive in. First of all, you were
Speaker 1: right this this, I guess episode of or one shot.
Speaker 1: What are we gonna call this?
Speaker 2: I think not calling them like mob a special presentation.
Speaker 4: But this.
Speaker 1: Right was directed by Ronaldo Marcus Green and written by
Speaker 1: John Berenthal and Green, And here are John's statements about it.
Speaker 1: First of all, the official log line is as Frank
Speaker 1: Castle searches for meaning beyond revenge, an unexpected force pulls
Speaker 1: him back into the fight, which I guess is Karen No.
Speaker 4: I think the unexpected force is Manucci Ah, like a kid.
Speaker 2: I don't know, unclear.
Speaker 4: I think they didn't know how to write Frank Castle
Speaker 4: kills one hundred and fifty people an explicit way.
Speaker 1: So John was really, first of all, here's the way
Speaker 1: to understand this one shot, the only way to get
Speaker 1: it made with John Berenthal, And clearly they want to
Speaker 1: do it with John Berenthal. And he's invested in the character,
Speaker 1: but only if he gets to explore the psychological trauma side.
Speaker 1: So he could do the John Berenthal gruns, I'd like
Speaker 1: cut himself. And so John has stated in various interviews
Speaker 1: that he quote he wants. He wanted to quote a visceral,
Speaker 1: psychologically complex on forgiving no holds barred version of Frank
Speaker 1: where he's going to turn his back to the audience
Speaker 1: and nothing is easy and all violence has a cost,
Speaker 1: and we're going to see.
Speaker 2: The costs cost.
Speaker 1: The cost is Frank's own mental health. And so I
Speaker 1: think what they wanted to do was create this, create
Speaker 1: a picture of Frank Castle as a severely mentally unwell,
Speaker 1: extremely emotionally tortured individual who can only express his pain
Speaker 1: by killing.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's my thing. I don't And the thing is, look,
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna lie. Twenty five year old Rosie maybe
Speaker 4: maybe would have found a way to just totally love
Speaker 4: this because it is extremely violent, it is extravagant, it's crazy,
Speaker 4: it's cartoonish. But I just I don't think it adds anything.
Speaker 4: Like Iam was saying this in our chatley, What does
Speaker 4: it tell us about Frank Castle other than now he's
Speaker 4: more willing than ever to just kill someone on the street.
Speaker 4: I guess I think is it setting him up to
Speaker 4: be like a truly scary punisher, so then we can
Speaker 4: see how much his relationship with Spider Man impacts him
Speaker 4: when he becomes more of a street friendly hero.
Speaker 2: I'm just very interested.
Speaker 4: This does not feel like how you set up what
Speaker 4: could be the biggest kids movie of the year.
Speaker 1: I think, for I think you're looking at this all wrong.
Speaker 1: Of course, what they're what they're what it's telling us
Speaker 1: is less about Frank and more about Disney. That Disney
Speaker 1: is saying, now is the time to fully embrace the
Speaker 1: way the Punisher has always been depicted in the comics.
Speaker 1: This is how, this is the Punisher, This is the
Speaker 1: comics punishment you.
Speaker 2: Need about it.
Speaker 4: This is him, this is what it is a conversation now,
Speaker 4: I will say that me personally, my Punisher has always
Speaker 4: kind of been more of the or you know, Jim
Speaker 4: Lee Punisher War Journal.
Speaker 1: Like the more calculating when he was working with micro chip,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, My jor my favorite punishes
Speaker 1: when he is saving all those babies and he's like
Speaker 1: juggling them all the you know, just like a more
Speaker 1: more like a more just as ruthless, just as violent,
Speaker 1: but less like emotionally tortured. But like I guess this
Speaker 1: is I'm going to say, it's not necessarily not in.
Speaker 4: The I'm no, but I want to say the fans
Speaker 4: I have to say, I think John Bernhall might be
Speaker 4: surprised a lot of the men and the male fanboy,
Speaker 4: the Wednesday warrior type who they I think they think.
Speaker 2: They're making this for.
Speaker 4: They were all like, oh my God, please give us
Speaker 4: a non tortured punisher, like that's all we've gotten in
Speaker 4: the MCU.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't disagree. I'm curious because I think, again,
Speaker 1: I think this is less about telling you something about
Speaker 1: the Punisher and more about Marvel Disney sagree saying we
Speaker 1: are going to embrace what the Punisher has always been.
Speaker 1: We're going to do a comic accurate punisher because of
Speaker 1: reasons in the culture and the wider culture in society.
Speaker 1: We think this is the time people will accept it.
Speaker 4: Not just that at what you can argue it's a
Speaker 4: really easy thing to argue plausible deniability about because you
Speaker 4: can go, well, the punisher isn't a cop, and the
Speaker 4: punisher is actually a vigilante, so maybe there's something radical
Speaker 4: and subversive there. But at the same time we know
Speaker 4: they also know that they're going to be appealing to
Speaker 4: the market, like using that I will be Heard song,
Speaker 4: like they also use Levillon Rose, which is really funny,
Speaker 4: like classic, slow down classical.
Speaker 2: When he's coming.
Speaker 4: Through the door, but like when you see him like
Speaker 4: killing people and like shooting people to now is the
Speaker 4: time I was just like, guys, like, I feel like
Speaker 4: you made this to end up on the worst parts
Speaker 4: of the internet.
Speaker 2: Like and I'm not. I don't believe it. Censorship, make
Speaker 2: whatever you want, but I just I don't know why
Speaker 2: this is the story right now.
Speaker 1: Like I mean, like I think that they're thinking, let's
Speaker 1: embrace the full well spectrum punish variety of Marvel comics,
Speaker 1: of Marvel Comics fans, the ones, even the ones who
Speaker 1: like are deluded kind of a little bit about the Punisher,
Speaker 1: but like, let's be let's be real about it. The
Speaker 1: Punisher is always He's always been a revenge fantasy. He's
Speaker 1: always been the one that you you Him and Wolverine
Speaker 1: kind of have always been the characters that you engage
Speaker 1: with because they will kill the bad guy, like they
Speaker 1: won't just put him in jail to be recycled out
Speaker 1: into the streets. And so I think that there is
Speaker 1: a certain fan that will be like finally or at
Speaker 1: least that's what Disney's.
Speaker 4: That's what Disney's count I'm interested to see it because
Speaker 4: I will say, living in America, even just for a
Speaker 4: decade has totally changed my perception of the punisher because
Speaker 4: I was always like a pro punisher, Like I love
Speaker 4: those comics. It's very death wish, but with a bit
Speaker 4: more like cool vibes a little bit less obviously like
Speaker 4: racist and reactionary. But in England, after a really tragic
Speaker 4: mass shooting when I was a kid in Scotland called Dunblane,
Speaker 4: the personal gun use was banned, so I didn't grow
Speaker 4: up with.
Speaker 1: The threat of old we don't do that. We don't
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: I obviously we know that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: We've made the policy decision that we love guns.
Speaker 2: We love guns more than kids, you know, so.
Speaker 1: We do we very much so, and that we will
Speaker 1: allow things to happen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's not to say, you know, England is
Speaker 4: obviously the heart of darkness when it comes to colonialism
Speaker 4: and evil things.
Speaker 2: So England is not perfect.
Speaker 4: But in that way, since I've moved here ten years,
Speaker 4: in watching this cas, I just feel like it's very
Speaker 4: fucking heavy to watch this in America and to see
Speaker 4: it as like a fictionalized thing when there is right
Speaker 4: now this even when Garth Ennis made his really crazy
Speaker 4: out there Punisher stuff right, which at the time was
Speaker 4: even quite offensive and out there.
Speaker 2: It was in the in the context of.
Speaker 4: The time when things were looking forward and things were
Speaker 4: like hopefully moving forward and shit, it was almost you
Speaker 4: could read it as like a satire. I think the
Speaker 4: problem is now there are people even though this does
Speaker 4: I think lean into that Paul Viehoven almost satire, I
Speaker 4: think unfortunately, it's like forty nine percent on that side,
Speaker 4: fifty one percent leaning to the side of like.
Speaker 2: He just shot a guy in the head in the street.
Speaker 2: Here's the Punisher logo.
Speaker 4: It's cool, you know, and we don't get any of
Speaker 4: Frank's antico mentality here that was really kept for Dar
Speaker 4: Devil though. There also isn't really any cops in this,
Speaker 4: which was an interesting choice. But yeah, I just find
Speaker 4: this to be such an intriguing piece, Like I feel
Speaker 4: like this is going to be something that drops and
Speaker 4: who knows, maybe people won't care about it, maybe people
Speaker 4: will love it. But I feel like in ten years
Speaker 4: people are going to be talking about this how they
Speaker 4: talked about The Dark Night ten years after that had
Speaker 4: come out, and we were kind of looking at it
Speaker 4: as a reaction to like nine to eleven. I'm really
Speaker 4: interested because I do feel like this is a surprising
Speaker 4: route that they went because also something we didn't like
Speaker 4: tap into a lot because we were doing our quick
Speaker 4: recount that I loved in the first act. This is
Speaker 4: actually like the most we've gotten to kind of see
Speaker 4: him dealing with what we would understand as real PTSD,
Speaker 4: like he's dealing with it from the war and speaking
Speaker 4: to his I thought that opening stuff was so powerful,
Speaker 4: and he really wanted to get help and find that
Speaker 4: happiness or at least find a piece, you know, a
Speaker 4: silence something. And and I think it's kind of a
Speaker 4: dangerous line to draw between showing the most impact of
Speaker 4: his time as a veteran, his time in prison, his time,
Speaker 4: and then drawing the line to like, yeah, now he's
Speaker 4: back at killing again and he's doing a good lone
Speaker 4: wolf shooting with that trauma like it just I think,
Speaker 4: maybe again, I'm getting older, I'm thirty seven.
Speaker 2: I don't like watching even like sore.
Speaker 1: Mean, I tell you where I am, tell me I'm
Speaker 1: I almost wonder. There are three hundred million guns in
Speaker 1: this country, so obviously this is a you know, like
Speaker 1: guns are a policy choice. Gun violence is a policy
Speaker 1: choice the present danger. But I almost wonder if we
Speaker 1: don't need more mean that political here's the truly like
Speaker 1: like revolutionary political version of the punisher, a black or
Speaker 1: brown punisher.
Speaker 2: Oh, I would talk about this all the time. Who's
Speaker 2: allowed to use guns in the same way a white
Speaker 2: man is? Yeah, And I.
Speaker 1: Think maybe the way to get rid of guns, or
Speaker 1: to get people to like really be serious because like,
Speaker 1: let's face it, it's not going to it's not happening,
Speaker 1: does not have any Maybe the way to get people
Speaker 1: really really concerned about it is for uh, you know,
Speaker 1: black and brown communities to like buy a lot of
Speaker 1: guns legally walk around with them.
Speaker 4: Did you know that that happened in America in the
Speaker 4: s of.
Speaker 1: Course I know that. That's why Ronald Reagan enacted the
Speaker 1: first gun laws in because the black panthers. Yes, And
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I'm saying. Maybe maybe the way,
Speaker 1: maybe the way that to actually get it is to amplify,
Speaker 1: is to accelerate. I'm not saying that that I'm right,
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm not saying I'm right about that.
Speaker 1: That's I'm just thinking, like maybe maybe the part of
Speaker 1: the problem with guns is that one side has so
Speaker 1: completed to many. No is just like the idea of
Speaker 1: gun and whiteness has is so strongly linked gun whiteness justice, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: man goes on a shooting, it's not criminal. It may
Speaker 1: be criminal in the eyes of the law, but it's right,
Speaker 1: it's righteous.
Speaker 4: Well, even think about this, even the way there's been
Speaker 4: a lot of talk recently because there was recently another
Speaker 4: one of these tragic murders, the way murder suicides are
Speaker 4: reported on where it says, oh, this couple was the
Speaker 4: victim of a murder suicide, and it's like, no, the
Speaker 4: man got a gun and killed his wife.
Speaker 2: You know, the way that whiteness has.
Speaker 4: Talked about when men commit crimes like that with guns.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm into this. This is very interesting.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people I know recently who've begne
Speaker 4: whose idea of like how do we stay peaceful?
Speaker 2: And a lot of it is becoming more about that
Speaker 2: idea of like we just give people like.
Speaker 1: You know, how do you why don't you get it's
Speaker 1: to have a nuke?
Speaker 2: So sorry, we're in that situation right now.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm I'm thinking buying gun but maybe
Speaker 1: and I'm very anti gun but maybe maybe the way
Speaker 1: to get people to actually respect gun laws is if
Speaker 1: they feel like the wrong people have guns now, because
Speaker 1: clearly what the thing is right now is there's a
Speaker 1: feeling that the right people have guns, or at least
Speaker 1: enough of them. So if their feeling is changes that like,
Speaker 1: oh no, now the people that we don't like have
Speaker 1: a lot of guns, maybe then you get gun laws.
Speaker 1: Because I certainly don't think shaming people because of the
Speaker 1: deaths of twenty or thirty or forty children at school
Speaker 1: is like ever going to change.
Speaker 2: It's not lacking.
Speaker 1: And I think with regards to the punisher as a lens,
Speaker 1: I don't think that anybody's going to be I think
Speaker 1: that this is a very American thing. I Also, here's
Speaker 1: my other feeling. I don't truly believe that the character
Speaker 1: of a nation or a country or a people changes
Speaker 1: that much over time. Certainly not over two hundred and
Speaker 1: something years. That are two hundred and fifty years in Americasmen,
Speaker 1: When you think about like what America with the symbols
Speaker 1: of America are, it's like the cowboy marching west killing
Speaker 1: the Indians with the six shooter on his hip, and
Speaker 1: we're still there and we will always be that for
Speaker 1: or at least for the foresea old future. We're gonna
Speaker 1: be that. And so maybe the only way to change
Speaker 1: it is if, like the Indians have a lot more guns.
Speaker 1: And again, I don't know I think that's an answer
Speaker 1: to anything. I don't know that's an answer, But I
Speaker 1: just feel like one side feels like they got a
Speaker 1: lot of guns and they like it and they don't
Speaker 1: want them taken away. And that's that's.
Speaker 4: Probably as special as I feel like they think Frank
Speaker 4: is the right guy to have them, and I feel like.
Speaker 2: This is well they do continue that.
Speaker 1: Again, I think that that is the I think that's
Speaker 1: I think that's always been the calculus of Frank, is
Speaker 1: that like, we're too soft on crime, we're too soft
Speaker 1: on these people. And usually it's been like, you know,
Speaker 1: like white adjacent Italian American body others, and and only
Speaker 1: a only a white guy with a lot of guns,
Speaker 1: who is who has served his country as a marine
Speaker 1: and who has faced the personal trauma of losing people
Speaker 1: as a result of crime, can truly understand what needs
Speaker 1: to be done. And even if he is extremely mentally
Speaker 1: unwell to the point of being suicidal, still he must
Speaker 1: be given guns in order to accomplish this, and that
Speaker 1: is always that.
Speaker 4: That's what they did with Rambow too, right from the
Speaker 4: first movie to the franchise, Like it's a very American.
Speaker 2: The Fast movie is incredible.
Speaker 1: But your first the first one is actually very very
Speaker 1: interesting in a very subversive film.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm saying, but I think when Jerry Conway created
Speaker 4: The Punisher, he was trying to deal with the idea
Speaker 4: of PTSD, the idea of.
Speaker 2: How you're coming with the war coming home and stuff like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in a crazy trapping, but that was there,
Speaker 4: but it has become now I think like that to
Speaker 4: you know, the Rambo in twenty sixteen or whatever. This
Speaker 4: is like the Rambo in twenty sixteen, where I think
Speaker 4: a lot of the interest and subversiveness has been kind of.
Speaker 2: Shaded off.
Speaker 1: To go further, I think, you know, if you look
Speaker 1: at Bernhal's podcast, Real Ones, which I have dabbled in occasionally.
Speaker 1: I have occasionally and when I occasionally want to listen
Speaker 1: to somebody, it is a lot. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: actors on there, but there's also like Marine Survives Ied
Speaker 1: Blast and you know, various Special Forces people. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, folks who have really experienced violence up up close,
Speaker 1: Navy seals. And I think that, you know, Primo Pauly's
Speaker 1: fight for redemption when he talks about like being so
Speaker 1: And I do think that, as you said, kind of
Speaker 1: the most interesting thing about Berenthal and This is its
Speaker 1: willingness to dive into these really dark, like mental health spaces.
Speaker 1: And I think Bernhal is clearly interested in that, and
Speaker 1: that's what he's tried to bring to the screen. And
Speaker 1: I personally, am am don't. I think that it's comical
Speaker 1: and almost like shockingly grizzly the kind of ideological A
Speaker 1: to B two C connection he has made. It's also
Speaker 1: like very much an area clearly of interest to him,
Speaker 1: which is how does a man, how does a man
Speaker 1: deal with the most deal with trauma and violence to
Speaker 1: their person? And I think he's got a very particular
Speaker 1: view of it, which is and lash out and kill. Now.
Speaker 1: I think this is a very different I think society
Speaker 1: reacts very differently if yes, this is a black man
Speaker 1: or a brown man who is who has experienced you know,
Speaker 1: white supremacist trauma or trauma at war and decides to
Speaker 1: then go off and kill five hundred white people.
Speaker 4: And also, let's be real, I mean, this guy wants
Speaker 4: the government. It would be different if this person we see.
Speaker 4: You know, it's absolutely crazy to be citing like a
Speaker 4: fucking Seth MacFarland meme.
Speaker 2: But you know it's the terrorist color chart, right, It's
Speaker 2: like you're a lone war for you're a terrorist.
Speaker 4: If a brown person kills one person, the first acknowledgment
Speaker 4: and assumption is that they are a terrorist.
Speaker 2: This man is.
Speaker 4: Killing like five hundred people in New York just in
Speaker 4: the street. Also, yes, it's not the New York we've
Speaker 4: ever seen in any other part of the MCU.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm intrigued, and I agree with you.
Speaker 4: John Buntall is like an intriguing person to me because
Speaker 4: I think that's a very interesting invested thing to do.
Speaker 2: My dad, My dad is a veteran.
Speaker 4: He was not on me very young, like it fucked
Speaker 4: his shit up really so like I appreciate that, but
Speaker 4: I just I was so interested in that first twenty
Speaker 4: minutes where I was like, Okay, he's trying to deal
Speaker 4: with this shit, Like what do you do when you've
Speaker 4: done the thing that was supposed to save you? When
Speaker 4: you've gotten vengeance, Like when you're trying to heal, what
Speaker 4: do you do after that? And the answer is just
Speaker 4: kill five hundred more people with a cooler gun and
Speaker 4: get a haircut, And you know what, that's kind of.
Speaker 2: Relaiable in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 4: Actually, so maybe I'm wrong, but I just worry it's
Speaker 4: gonna be relaable to the wrong people. This is crazy
Speaker 4: to me that this is going to be on Disney
Speaker 4: Plus next to like Princess movies. I just yes, I think, guys,
Speaker 4: I know that things have changed, basically, I think since
Speaker 4: Born Again the Devil. Born Again was when they bought
Speaker 4: all the Netflix stuff the first season. But it is
Speaker 4: hard to put into words how strict Disney used to be.
Speaker 4: There was once a attraction at Disney called Alien Encounter,
Speaker 4: and it was seen as one of the scariest attractions
Speaker 4: ever made. It was all about sensory feelings and the
Speaker 4: idea of an alien breathing in face. They had to
Speaker 4: take it away because it ruined the family friendly branding
Speaker 4: that Disney had. They wouldn't make movies that were too scary.
Speaker 4: That's why all their villains are iconic. It is insane
Speaker 4: to have a movie that in my opinion, is more
Speaker 4: violent than something like The Raid. Because the other thing
Speaker 4: I do want to say about this, and while I
Speaker 4: again I love action, I love action cinema. I'm sure
Speaker 4: a ton of rad people worked on this. There is
Speaker 4: so much shooting and guns.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 4: This is not the Raid where they're doing scilla and
Speaker 4: you're learning about a new martial art. You're seeing someone
Speaker 4: at the peak of their strength. This is a guy
Speaker 4: with twenty five different guns and like an axe, like
Speaker 4: cutting people's throats, which also is fun to watch.
Speaker 2: But it's not the Raid level.
Speaker 4: It's not even it's not even Dread level, like that
Speaker 4: had something exciting and visceral to bring.
Speaker 2: I think this is a fun, crazy Looney.
Speaker 4: Tunes type situation, but it also feels like the craziest
Speaker 4: thing in the world for a corporation to drop in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2: It's like the Anti Boys, That's what it feels like.
Speaker 1: I agree. I think it's for a niche audience, which
Speaker 1: is the thing that makes it very interesting. You know,
Speaker 1: well it's.
Speaker 4: Apply well, well, well let's see how this goes, babe.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think I think they will be
Speaker 1: very I think that there will be no ab muted
Speaker 1: to no response. I don't think people are gonna be out.
Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like it's gonna be either.
Speaker 4: I think it's gonna people saying, Oh, it's kind of
Speaker 4: good and dark and shocking, and then a couple of
Speaker 4: people being like, why did it get made.
Speaker 1: There's gonna be people who are like, I'm disgusted by this,
Speaker 1: and that's gonna be the reason that people watch it.
Speaker 2: I don't think that shit that's true.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna matter that. I don't honestly
Speaker 1: don't think it's gonna matter.
Speaker 2: I mean, does anything matter anymore? Like what nothing mass anymore?
Speaker 2: But at least I accidentally matched during cute pink outfits.
Speaker 2: You guys can't see it coming.
Speaker 1: On Extra Vision, we're getting ready for the Mandlar and
Speaker 1: Grogu with everything you need to know before seeing the movie.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode. Thanks' listening, bye x ray
Speaker 1: Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young and Rosie Knight
Speaker 1: and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 4: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean, Jonathan.
Speaker 1: And Fay wag Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez,
Speaker 1: with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Speaker 4: Heidi our discord moderator,