Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of My
Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and
Speaker 1: there's Jerry over there, and this is Stuff you Should Know.
Speaker 1: Another prison edition. We're starting to fill it out a
Speaker 1: little bit. I don't know. I don't remember even talking
Speaker 1: about this in our prison episode. Did we There's just
Speaker 1: no way we didn't mention it. Somehow we certainly didn't
Speaker 1: go into depth. I remember wanting to do this for
Speaker 1: a while, um and looking into it before and being like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's not really a thing. Luckily you put um Julia
Speaker 1: Layton on it and she did a little more digging
Speaker 1: and it turned out it was, um kind of a
Speaker 1: human rights criminology thing. Yeah, but you're sort of right
Speaker 1: that it's not really much of a thing, which is sad.
Speaker 1: I've learned. Yeah, I think so, I think any Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we'll get to it. But yes, I'm in
Speaker 1: favor of um extended family visits, which may or may
Speaker 1: not include sex. Yeah, I got that from uh now.
Speaker 1: Hob Goblins and the Mystery Science Theater three thousand version
Speaker 1: of hob goblins. It's it's pretty great. Just just go
Speaker 1: check it out. It will show up eventually. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned um sexy time, and I think
Speaker 1: when you think of conjugal visits, m'st the ford. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's originally what it was. And we'll get to the history.
Speaker 1: But that's the first thing you probably think of, is
Speaker 1: a time set aside at a certain place at a prison.
Speaker 1: Probably not you know, a separate building at a prison
Speaker 1: where uh, and you generally think of like a wife
Speaker 1: going to have sex with her inmate husband. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: in fact, I mean that's actually pretty good term for it,
Speaker 1: because in in biology, to conjugate means to um become
Speaker 1: temporarily united in order to exchange genetic material. Man, if
Speaker 1: that's not a clinical term, I have never heard one before.
Speaker 1: It there with mouth parts, I mean yeah, it does. Um,
Speaker 1: everybody's heard of conjugal visits. I mean, like it's just
Speaker 1: kind of like this legendary mythological thing. Like if you've
Speaker 1: ever seen a Bugs Bunny cartoon from the forties, you
Speaker 1: know about conjugal visits. You know what I mean. No,
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. But you can see it though, couldn't you?
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be like one of those random things whereas
Speaker 1: an adult you went back and you're like, I can't believe,
Speaker 1: like this is part of this cartoon. I think I
Speaker 1: would be surprised if Bugs Bunny featured prison or sex.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd be pretty surprised, all right, I guarantee
Speaker 1: prisons made an appearance. But the thing is is, there
Speaker 1: does seem to be like a huge misunderstanding about conjugal
Speaker 1: visits or an understanding about them, but then a complete
Speaker 1: lack of understanding about how much further these visits go
Speaker 1: um and and actually I think that that kind of
Speaker 1: has led to their decline because you need public support
Speaker 1: to keep something like that up, because it's really easy
Speaker 1: to get rid of if you are are so minded,
Speaker 1: it's very easy to get rid of. And as you'll
Speaker 1: see or you know or here, uh, that's been happening
Speaker 1: over the course of the past twenty years in a
Speaker 1: big way, and a big reason is because what you
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, what we're really talking about these days in
Speaker 1: the United States, and we'll get to other countries. Other
Speaker 1: countries are like bring it, do it six ways to
Speaker 1: Sunday a couple of times a month, but no, like
Speaker 1: we really have to watch. Um. They're they're called extended
Speaker 1: family visits. UH. In New York they're called family reunion visits.
Speaker 1: And it's really easy for a politician of a certain
Speaker 1: kind of politician that doesn't want this kind of thing
Speaker 1: going on, to just lump it in there as you know,
Speaker 1: your taxpayer dollar are going toward uh, these hardcore criminals
Speaker 1: just being able to have sex, and like, why would
Speaker 1: we support that? They can go not the case, They
Speaker 1: can say watch this, I'm physically conservative and tough on criminals.
Speaker 1: And then the people say how much did you save?
Speaker 1: And they go, yeah, well, let's get to that too.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about, um, how we'll explain how how
Speaker 1: much beyond what the public's understanding of conjugal visitor that
Speaker 1: it goes. But let's talk about the origins of these things.
Speaker 1: You want to Yeah, the basically racist origins. In Mississippi, uh,
Speaker 1: Mississippi State penn In the early nineteen hundreds, there was
Speaker 1: a for profit labor camp called Parchment Farm where the
Speaker 1: UH warden basically said, you know what, Um, everybody knows
Speaker 1: that that black men have an insatiable sex drive, and
Speaker 1: that's one reason they're in here to begin with. So
Speaker 1: if we get these guys having a little bit of
Speaker 1: sex as an incentive, then they're gonna work harder for
Speaker 1: us and increase our profits. That that's the origin of
Speaker 1: conjugal visits period. Really, that's it. And so this warden
Speaker 1: started this program UM at Parchment, which became I believe
Speaker 1: the Mississippi State Penitentiary UM. And this was in what
Speaker 1: en Uh yeah, nineteen eighteen is when he started bringing
Speaker 1: in sex workers, right, and you just hit the nail
Speaker 1: on the head as it were, UM on Sundays. Last
Speaker 1: on Sundays, the warden would bring in UM sex workers
Speaker 1: for to um lay with the inmates and do more
Speaker 1: than just laying. Yeah, Like married, not a problem, Single,
Speaker 1: not a problem. We got the shack out in the
Speaker 1: back and uh, you know, I don't know if you
Speaker 1: want to be like tenth on that list for the day,
Speaker 1: but that's uh, that's how we're gonna do things around here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and like that, you were right about the racist origins
Speaker 1: of it, because it wasn't until twelve years after that
Speaker 1: program was instituted that it was extended to white inmates.
Speaker 1: And then it wasn't another I think fifty four years
Speaker 1: before it was finally extended to female to women femine
Speaker 1: female inmates. UM. And along the way, what's crazy is
Speaker 1: between that that gulf of time nineteen eighteen and in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two when women were first became eligible in
Speaker 1: Mississippi for conjugal visits, it underwent this kind of like
Speaker 1: surprising enlightenment transition to where there was a nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: six maybe study that was done on it, and in
Speaker 1: the notes on the study, like some criminologist or or
Speaker 1: um Corrections official basically said, you know, this is possibly
Speaker 1: one of the most enlightened programs in in the entire
Speaker 1: Corrections UM field, in the entire country Mississippi. What grew
Speaker 1: out of their racist conjugal visit program became something like
Speaker 1: genuinely enlightened, which was pretty interesting. Yeah, and we should
Speaker 1: note that, UM in nineteen sixty three is when they
Speaker 1: were not bringing in sex sex workers. At that point
Speaker 1: you had to be married and it had to be
Speaker 1: your spouse. Uh. And that's an important distinction. But for
Speaker 1: you know, forty five years, it seems like they were
Speaker 1: bringing in every Sunday sex workers too, too, I guess, um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to to incentivize these guys. Yeah, right, right, And so
Speaker 1: I think that's where the transition came, where it became
Speaker 1: enlightened as it went from an incentive to get them
Speaker 1: to work harder because Parchment was a for profit prison
Speaker 1: labor camp, which, by the way, if you're if you're like,
Speaker 1: what is that, go watch the Ava du verne Um
Speaker 1: documentary and the Thirteenth Amendment, one of the most mind
Speaker 1: altering documentaries you will ever see. Really really well done,
Speaker 1: but really kind of drives home the idea of prison
Speaker 1: labor is an extension of slavery. But that was what
Speaker 1: this was. This was Jim Crow slavery. It was legal
Speaker 1: slavery after slavery was abolished, And so the whole thing
Speaker 1: was to get these inmates to work harder. But then
Speaker 1: over time they said, well, no, wait a minute, maybe
Speaker 1: this is actually like good for society. Weirdly, it's going
Speaker 1: to keep these family ties between the inmates and the
Speaker 1: people they've been separated from, you know, just linked enough
Speaker 1: that when they go back out on the outside, they're
Speaker 1: not just gonna go back to a life of crime.
Speaker 1: They're still gonna have these relationships that they had before
Speaker 1: they went in. Yeah, and so you know, as as
Speaker 1: everyone knows, as things go in Mississippi, they generally follow
Speaker 1: in the rest of the United States. And extended visitation
Speaker 1: is what they were calling it. Well, I guess they
Speaker 1: call it conjugal visits. But um, in the sixties is
Speaker 1: when it started to spread to more and more states
Speaker 1: around the United States. I think California in South Carolina
Speaker 1: had programs in the late sixties. New York and Minnesota
Speaker 1: jumped on board in the seven these I think in
Speaker 1: the eighties, Uh, some other states, New Mexico and Wyoming
Speaker 1: got on board, and then I guess we would call
Speaker 1: it the Golden Age of conjugal visits. In the early
Speaker 1: nineties there were seventeen states that allowed some sort of
Speaker 1: extended visitation. Yeah, but so that was the peak. And
Speaker 1: one of the reasons the early nineties were the peak
Speaker 1: was because about the early eighties, UM, the United States said,
Speaker 1: you know what, this whole like rehabilitation thing that's kicked
Speaker 1: off in the fifties, This idea that prison was meant
Speaker 1: to rehabilitate people and turn them into better citizenis it
Speaker 1: didn't work. And we think it's all a bunch of
Speaker 1: who we and UM we're going to abandon that and
Speaker 1: get tough on crime. And that's what happened. I mean
Speaker 1: throughout the eighties and the nineties, we got super tough
Speaker 1: on crime, super conservative about how we treat criminals and prisoners.
Speaker 1: And the idea became, if you were in prison, you
Speaker 1: were in there for a reason, and you you should
Speaker 1: not have any kind of frills or um or moments
Speaker 1: of joy. You're supposed to be in there to be punished,
Speaker 1: maybe to reflect on what you did wrong, but at
Speaker 1: the really ultimately this is punishment. And um, we're not
Speaker 1: going to treat you like a human being any longer
Speaker 1: you're a prisoner. It's a different kind of person. And
Speaker 1: part of that is taking away conjugal visits. Right, And
Speaker 1: that line of thinking, like you said, was a pretty
Speaker 1: big sea change in and now we don't have crime. Right,
Speaker 1: it worked. New Gingrich's plan worked. Should we take a boy,
Speaker 1: I think we should take a break on New Gingrich. Right,
Speaker 1: let's all take a break on New Ingra. Let's take
Speaker 1: a little break and we'll be back right after this. Alright, Chuck,
Speaker 1: so um, let's talk a little bit about like what
Speaker 1: these things evolved too along the way, because if you're
Speaker 1: just sitting there like, Okay, so prisoners can't have sex anymore,
Speaker 1: that's really not the end of the world to me. Well,
Speaker 1: prepare for your heart to bleed a little more than
Speaker 1: it is right now, because over time, these conjugal visits
Speaker 1: developed into order, like you said, called extended family visits
Speaker 1: or family reunion visits, and they involved not just spouses, um,
Speaker 1: but also kids. Um. The parents of the inmate might
Speaker 1: come to visit, UM, siblings might come to visit, and
Speaker 1: there was no sex involved. It was family time. Like
Speaker 1: that was the point of the whole thing, was to
Speaker 1: spend time with family. And Um. If you read some
Speaker 1: of the accounts of the children of inmates who have
Speaker 1: memories of going to these extended family visits, um, they
Speaker 1: formed these are like the memories of their lifetime, Like
Speaker 1: these are some of their best childhood memories. Ironically enough, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, the whole purpose here is is primarily twofold,
Speaker 1: which is incentive. It's still an incentive to get inmates
Speaker 1: to follow the rules because as you'll see as we
Speaker 1: detail the stuff, um, you really really have to follow
Speaker 1: the rules. Like very few prisoners are even eligible for
Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Um. And then the other thing is,
Speaker 1: you know, just to foster that family tie so once
Speaker 1: you get out, you don't have that that cliche you
Speaker 1: see in the movie where you come home from prison
Speaker 1: and you have these strangers sitting in your house that
Speaker 1: are your children, and there's at least some small modicum
Speaker 1: of of a relationship of some sort of a tie
Speaker 1: emotional tie with a parent and a child or like
Speaker 1: you said, the parent of the inmate, or you know, spouses.
Speaker 1: They're still involved obviously, So when they get out, the
Speaker 1: idea is that they have of a support system. They're
Speaker 1: waiting on them and not like, well now I have
Speaker 1: the super awkward uh moment where I have to come
Speaker 1: in and and get to know my teenage children, right,
Speaker 1: or you know, like this is really hard on me.
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to go back to crime or
Speaker 1: go back to addiction or whatever. So the idea that
Speaker 1: there's this structure that remains in place and solid during
Speaker 1: their imprisonment, that the the thought is that that just
Speaker 1: helps them ease into normal society afterwards. Yeah, like we
Speaker 1: really need to drive that home because I think the
Speaker 1: way I said it, there might be people saying, well,
Speaker 1: so what if it's super awkward. You shouldn't have committed
Speaker 1: the crime. It's not that it can be so awkward
Speaker 1: enough putting that it can. It can cause someone like
Speaker 1: you said, to not go home and to not want
Speaker 1: to face their family that they don't know, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, they're they're alone out there. And as
Speaker 1: we'll see, we have statistics to back it up. Recidivism
Speaker 1: is UH is a big problem in this really really helps.
Speaker 1: It's also a bone head word. It is a bone
Speaker 1: head word. The thing is too is also it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily even just awkward for him, but there's there's expectations
Speaker 1: that are on them when they come back home. They
Speaker 1: have people that they're accountable to, which helps that transition
Speaker 1: because you know, and you can imagine that the transition
Speaker 1: that period immediately after prison life into normal society. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if it's weeks or months, maybe longer. Um
Speaker 1: that is the the most difficult part of getting back
Speaker 1: into society. And so have a family and a home
Speaker 1: to go to that that just changes things. They make
Speaker 1: movies about it, they do, and bugs money cartoons. So
Speaker 1: here's UH, and we'll get to some of these stories
Speaker 1: two in a second. But here's how it works depending
Speaker 1: on where you are. Um, because it's different at every
Speaker 1: prison in every state has their own. And I think
Speaker 1: we should also point out that it's only state prisons
Speaker 1: where it's even allowed at all, Like if you're in
Speaker 1: federal prison, there isn't anything like that from what I
Speaker 1: could find. Yeah, but um, they try to set it up.
Speaker 1: I mean it depends on whether there's a uh like
Speaker 1: a shack in the back or a trailer sometimes. Um,
Speaker 1: I think they try to make them a little homier
Speaker 1: these days, and what they're looking to do is sort
Speaker 1: of recreate some sense of normalcy over the one to
Speaker 1: four days that you're allowed to be with your family. Uh.
Speaker 1: This one in Connecticut, McDougall Walker Correctional Institution. I think
Speaker 1: it's the biggest prison in the New England area. They
Speaker 1: have a full on, like two bedroom apartment with a
Speaker 1: kitchen and they can bring in food and cook meals
Speaker 1: together and watch movies. I think they they have like
Speaker 1: stock DVDs and stuff like that. Um, but I think
Speaker 1: you are allowed to even bring in Everything is heavily inspected,
Speaker 1: of course, but you are allowed to bring in food
Speaker 1: to cook like your favorite family meal. They're not just like, well,
Speaker 1: here's what you got from the prison pantry. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what I um saw as well. And I think more
Speaker 1: than just um, I think that's part part an economical
Speaker 1: decision too, because they also charge. Um there's you know,
Speaker 1: it can be a nominal fee, like in I think
Speaker 1: New York maybe or Washington. I think Washington, it's like
Speaker 1: ten dollars a visit or something like that. But um,
Speaker 1: you know, every penny counts in some of the budget
Speaker 1: deficited prisons in the United States. UM, so they do
Speaker 1: kind of count those pennies. But more more to the point,
Speaker 1: the point of bringing in outside food is to create
Speaker 1: that sense of normalcy for the family. Um. It's basically
Speaker 1: like a staycation on prison grounds is what I what like,
Speaker 1: ideally is what I got from from the research I did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if if the prisoner's favorite dessert is uh, fingernail
Speaker 1: file cake, that's what they're getting. That can't be helped
Speaker 1: talk about a movie trope. Has that ever happened in
Speaker 1: the history of the world. I don't know. We gotta
Speaker 1: find out now, though you just threw down the gauntlet
Speaker 1: like a prison a fingernail file being snuck in a
Speaker 1: cake and that leading to an escape. I think it's
Speaker 1: I think it's probably never happened. We'll find out. That
Speaker 1: reminds me that I've been wanting to do an episode
Speaker 1: on the Three Stooges that maybe a two parter. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a prepare for no women to listen. It's so great,
Speaker 1: they're so good man. Yeah, it's kind of a dude's thing,
Speaker 1: though maybe we'll change that with our episodes. There there
Speaker 1: should have been a counterpart, Yeah, you know, I wonder
Speaker 1: if there was. I'm sure they tried that out at
Speaker 1: some point during the middle. Well, I think the idea
Speaker 1: of a show with three women that are morons that
Speaker 1: just kind of abuse each other physically was probably not
Speaker 1: very realistic or believable, not like the real studoges. And
Speaker 1: how realistic that was, right, man, Seriously, I watched that
Speaker 1: sometimes still today and it's classic. Yes, it it really is,
Speaker 1: and for a good reason. It's it's hilarious, but also
Speaker 1: just so well choreographed and those dudes worked hard. We
Speaker 1: should totally do a an episode on that. So. Um So,
Speaker 1: while while you've got this staycation going on with your family,
Speaker 1: with your children, with your wife or your husband, um,
Speaker 1: and you're you're having a good time, you're relaxing. Um.
Speaker 1: Every four hours, depending on where you are, there's probably
Speaker 1: going to be a visit from a guard that says, hey,
Speaker 1: I gotta search some stuff. Because it's it's important to
Speaker 1: point out like this is not it's not like this.
Speaker 1: This occurs on the prison grounds. It's part of prison.
Speaker 1: It's just a modified part of prison. So there's plenty
Speaker 1: of rules and restrictions that that are meant to keep
Speaker 1: security tight, prevent contraband from being transferred from you know,
Speaker 1: the visitors to the inmate um, and uh, to just
Speaker 1: kind of keep things on the up and up basically, Yeah, like, uh,
Speaker 1: for instance, you can't just waltz in there, like if
Speaker 1: you've got a new uh sexy penpal in um he said, well,
Speaker 1: I want to get a visit from this person. Now,
Speaker 1: you can't just waltz in there as a first timer
Speaker 1: and pop in and have a conjugal visit or even
Speaker 1: a family visit, whatever you want to call it. You
Speaker 1: have to have it. I mean, it depends on where
Speaker 1: you are again, but like in New York, you have
Speaker 1: to have been at least a visitor standard visitor, three
Speaker 1: other times in the previous twelve months. So you have
Speaker 1: to be someone they know, someone who has proven to
Speaker 1: be you know, a real like connection in your life. Um,
Speaker 1: you have to undergo health screening. And this is everyone
Speaker 1: like kids, anyone that's gonna stay in this apartment. Um,
Speaker 1: you're gonna get health screened. Obviously for conjugal visit, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get STD tested. Um. Like you mentioned, it depends
Speaker 1: on where you are. Lots of searches. Um. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I know, California was every four hours, but
Speaker 1: I imagine they'd like to spring those on you as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would guess so too. Not like they'll be back
Speaker 1: in four hours for the next one. I could kind
Speaker 1: of see like guards look king the other way or
Speaker 1: going kind of easy on these things, Like I could.
Speaker 1: I could. It just seems from every account that I've read,
Speaker 1: it seems like an overbearing, mean guard is not the
Speaker 1: kind of guard they would put on this detail. It
Speaker 1: just doesn't seem like it fits this whole vibe because,
Speaker 1: like you said, the the um, the people who are
Speaker 1: eligible for this are like the the model of the
Speaker 1: model inmates, like they've really worked for this. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: only state prisons. Uh you are. They're currently only allowed
Speaker 1: in seven states, down from it's heyday in uh the
Speaker 1: early nineties of seventeen. And you have to or I
Speaker 1: guess it's UM. They set it up so you're highly
Speaker 1: incentivised to do other jobs and other programs in order
Speaker 1: to get these conjugal visits. So you have to like
Speaker 1: maybe do us Uh you're involved in a school or
Speaker 1: a work based program, some kind of reentry program, and
Speaker 1: you've got to show that you've done that and you've
Speaker 1: been successful in that. Obviously the behavior like you can't
Speaker 1: have any things on your violations in your in your prison,
Speaker 1: uh stay at all, No, and certainly no recent ones.
Speaker 1: Like I get the impression that you could have in
Speaker 1: your past, but like you know, you probably couldn't have
Speaker 1: in the last month or six months or some some
Speaker 1: set amount of time. UM. And like you said, it
Speaker 1: needs to be part of like this larger pattern of
Speaker 1: UM working towards being rehabilitated, like being in a some
Speaker 1: sort of school or diploma program or some sort of
Speaker 1: work program something that basically combined with these family visits.
Speaker 1: Says I'm thinking about how I'm going to behave on
Speaker 1: the outside and it's going to be good. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: wow you so that that these extended family visits are
Speaker 1: kind of meant to support that and encourage that kind
Speaker 1: of thing too. Yeah, And again, depending on the state
Speaker 1: in the prison, Um, what you're in there for is
Speaker 1: going to really matter. Um. Obviously, if you're convicted of
Speaker 1: a ex crime domestic violence, any kind of violence against children,
Speaker 1: you're not even going to be eligible. And the eligibility
Speaker 1: is really low. Um. In two thousand thirteen, and this
Speaker 1: was the last year that they could in New Mexico,
Speaker 1: I think that they had conjugal visits. Only two of
Speaker 1: state prison inmates qualified. In Mississippi. That same year it
Speaker 1: was point zero zero seven nine percent in New York,
Speaker 1: four percent in Washington. So the idea that you may
Speaker 1: be sold on TV by an angry politician that you know,
Speaker 1: all of these prisoners are just in there having the
Speaker 1: time of their lives having sex is just false, right, Um.
Speaker 1: But it's just so easy to fall for because people
Speaker 1: don't you have to like look into this kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: and who's going to do that. Nobody. So the weird
Speaker 1: thing is, oh, yeah, so I forgot about us. Um
Speaker 1: with an assist by Julia Layton's UM. But the thing
Speaker 1: is is like those percentages and the fact that there's
Speaker 1: only would you say, seven states now left at all UM,
Speaker 1: and they're under they're under fire, as we'll see. But
Speaker 1: the idea that UM the United States is kind of
Speaker 1: slowly getting rid of its its UM extended family visit
Speaker 1: system as part of prison life, that's that's a that's
Speaker 1: weird as far as Western style democracies are concerned. UM.
Speaker 1: Countries around the world, especially Western style democracies, but also
Speaker 1: other ones allow for UM, if not extended family visits,
Speaker 1: at the very least conjugal visits. So there's there's actually
Speaker 1: you can it's easier to point out the Western democracies
Speaker 1: that don't allow it than it is that allow it.
Speaker 1: The ones that stand out in particular are Japan, New Zealand, UM,
Speaker 1: and Ireland, and the UK are they They absolutely don't.
Speaker 1: New Zealand doesn't because they view it as too much
Speaker 1: of a security risk and it's a huge political hot
Speaker 1: potato over there to even suggest that they should do it.
Speaker 1: And then Japan, apparently their prison system is just like
Speaker 1: in the Dark Ages, it's meant to penalize criminals. They
Speaker 1: can sit there and think about what they did. Apparently,
Speaker 1: Japan is under fire constantly by human rights organizations for
Speaker 1: like using torture and stuff like that in their prisons. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're like real backwards when it comes to prison for sure. Um,
Speaker 1: But the idea is that it's it's part of a
Speaker 1: liberal democracy to have this kind of program as part
Speaker 1: of your prisons at the very least, just to to
Speaker 1: keep your prison population less violent. Supposedly. Yeah. Um, countries
Speaker 1: around the world where uh, there was about to say lax,
Speaker 1: but that's not true. I'm sure it's still very structured
Speaker 1: and organized, but more permissive. Um. India. You they say
Speaker 1: it as a right and not a privilege as a
Speaker 1: human being. Um. Saudi Arabia allows a conjugal visit per
Speaker 1: wife per month. You know what that means. It means
Speaker 1: multiple wives equals multiple conjugal visits. That's right. Latin America,
Speaker 1: they are pretty generous with them. Brazil, the only requirement
Speaker 1: for visitors is good behavior. Um. Sometimes that can mean weekly.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be married. They do allow sex
Speaker 1: workers in Brazil to come in Canada. Not surprisingly, they
Speaker 1: allow three day family visits every two months for most inmates.
Speaker 1: Where else Germany. They basically it was sort of like
Speaker 1: anyone can get a conjugal visit up until about ten
Speaker 1: years ago when, and this is of course the kind
Speaker 1: of thing you're going to see all over the news,
Speaker 1: there was an inmate, a rapist and murderer, who actually
Speaker 1: killed his girlfriend during a conjugal visit. So they'd said
Speaker 1: nine ruined it for everybody. Yeah, although I don't think
Speaker 1: that they got rid of it. I think that they
Speaker 1: just changed the restrictions a little more. Yeah, and that
Speaker 1: is a real liar, obviously a terrible sad, sad case.
Speaker 1: But um, that is that is I didn't see anything
Speaker 1: else where anything like that had ever happened. But see,
Speaker 1: that's the thing that gets people right in the the
Speaker 1: hypothalamust or something, and all of a sudden they're like,
Speaker 1: get rid of it, Bannon, and kill a few prisoners
Speaker 1: while you're at it, for my satisfaction, because I need
Speaker 1: to calm down, right. But so Russia, Spain, France, Turkey, Qatar,
Speaker 1: Costa Rica, Mexico, Denmark, Australia and Israel all have, um,
Speaker 1: all have programs that include at the very least conjugal visits,
Speaker 1: if not family visits and like you said, Brazil and
Speaker 1: most of South America, but the US is not not
Speaker 1: hanging in there very well. We're just kind of slowly
Speaker 1: but surely, UM, getting rid of these things little by little.
Speaker 1: And from what I can tell, we keep talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, a politician pointing this out. All it takes
Speaker 1: is one um determined politician and a couple of legislative
Speaker 1: sessions and they're probably going to get their wish. And
Speaker 1: that seems to be what's been happening around the United States. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like there is enough people on the
Speaker 1: other side that really, really want to fight to keep
Speaker 1: it going. Um. We've seen Julius in a couple of stories,
Speaker 1: one from Vice and one from Medium where they talked
Speaker 1: to real prisoners about the programs. And this one woman,
Speaker 1: Bernadette stalbitz Um, she spent I think she had two
Speaker 1: daughters in jail, in prison and was able to eventually
Speaker 1: spend time with those girls and said, you know, these
Speaker 1: fond memories playing tag, cooking chili, having long emotional conversations
Speaker 1: into the night with their daughters that are now grown. Um,
Speaker 1: these thirty six hour visits were treasured, and she said
Speaker 1: if it weren't for these trailer visits, I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: the woman that I am today. And that seems to
Speaker 1: be the resounding message anytime you read these stories, is
Speaker 1: that this is what made the different. It's for me
Speaker 1: and doing my time, keeping sane and then doing the
Speaker 1: right thing when I got out. Yeah, and if you
Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to um, just kind of
Speaker 1: get them touched in the heart by some of these
Speaker 1: like read, uh, two point seven million kids have parents
Speaker 1: in prison. They're losing their right to visit. That's a
Speaker 1: headline UM for a Nation magazine article by Sylvia A. Harvey,
Speaker 1: whose father was in prison, and she she was the
Speaker 1: one I cited who said that some of her fondest
Speaker 1: childhood memories are of these extended family visits. And she
Speaker 1: interviews some some in profile, some other families who are
Speaker 1: kind of trying to um, you know, keep their family
Speaker 1: together while the father or the mothers in prison, but
Speaker 1: are losing that because these um extended visitations are being
Speaker 1: turned into just regular standard visitations. What most people think
Speaker 1: like the arrested development, no touching, UM kind of visit,
Speaker 1: like that's the Standard's what's called the standard visit and
Speaker 1: they are not nearly satisfying because I think there's just
Speaker 1: one thing we haven't really pointed out, Like, yes, it's
Speaker 1: important to have these family connections, but the way that
Speaker 1: these family connections are maintained is that in a standard
Speaker 1: visit where say it's like thirty minutes maybe an hour, uh,
Speaker 1: in a room with a bunch of other families and inmates,
Speaker 1: a bunch of corrections officers like standing right over you,
Speaker 1: you're not going to have the conversations that you would
Speaker 1: normally have, not not anything illegal or whatever, but just personal,
Speaker 1: deeply personal stuff. And so to have one day or
Speaker 1: two days or three days together as a family, those
Speaker 1: conversations start to come up because in those standard visits
Speaker 1: you've got like an hour, you don't have time to
Speaker 1: bring up touchy stuff that could result in hard feelings
Speaker 1: because you know that there's not enough time to complete
Speaker 1: that cycle to smooth out the hard feelings. That's one
Speaker 1: of the great benefits of these extended family visits is
Speaker 1: you can have these tough conversations. You can argue, you
Speaker 1: can snipe, you can discipline your kids because you know
Speaker 1: you have enough time to kind of work through it
Speaker 1: and process it and then strengthen those family bonds on
Speaker 1: on the other side of it. That's the vital importance
Speaker 1: of these kind of visits, and that's why they're so effective. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I know our hearts are bleeding all over this episode. Fine,
Speaker 1: but like I think you two, you would have to
Speaker 1: have a zero heart to go beyond prison is for
Speaker 1: punishment too. Prisonment is should be punishment for your entire family. Right,
Speaker 1: that's a different thing. You know, these are children that
Speaker 1: are suffering and that that may go down the wrong
Speaker 1: path because if if not for stuff like this, like
Speaker 1: there are a lot of other people involved, that it
Speaker 1: would just help society as a whole if if a
Speaker 1: little more empathy were involved. Yeah, and I think really
Speaker 1: kind of that points out one of the big arguments,
Speaker 1: which I think we should take a break and then
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the arguments against. But one of the
Speaker 1: arguments against Chuck is that, um, you know, people worry
Speaker 1: that there's going to be children born to automatic scene
Speaker 1: parents because the conjugal visits. It's like, well, what about
Speaker 1: the kids whose parents are already in jail? And if
Speaker 1: you follow that, you know, ellipses all the way to
Speaker 1: the end. The response is, well, those kids, those kids
Speaker 1: should have been born then if their parents are in jail.
Speaker 1: That's what they're kind of saying when they're saying one
Speaker 1: of the reasons to cancel these programs because we don't
Speaker 1: want them, we don't want pregnancies to result. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: let's take a break. We'll talk about that, uh, rehabilitation
Speaker 1: and punishment and then data in the lack of right
Speaker 1: after this. All right, So, you know, we brought it
Speaker 1: up in the prisons upisode. We brought it up in
Speaker 1: this episode. There are a couple of ways to look
Speaker 1: at prison and confinement, which is, are we trying to
Speaker 1: rehabilitate these people and were trying to make society better
Speaker 1: as a whole. Are we trying to just punish people
Speaker 1: and as hard as possible and we really don't care
Speaker 1: if society is better as a whole? Right, great synopsis, Chuck,
Speaker 1: Which side Elion? Well, here's the big reveal. So um
Speaker 1: clearly on the side of extended family visits. But I'm
Speaker 1: it's not even like a like, oh, I I really
Speaker 1: get your point, I get the other side's point, or
Speaker 1: I can see both sides, not even like that, it
Speaker 1: seems to me and Layton goes to great um links
Speaker 1: to kind of try to be diplomatic about it, but
Speaker 1: it's still just like, you know, this is this saysn't
Speaker 1: whole water at all. Um. The arguments against are basically
Speaker 1: just gut reactions. It's like the same thing is um
Speaker 1: a lot of arson investigation. It's like, well, you know
Speaker 1: this feels a lot to me like arson put that
Speaker 1: person in prison for life and maybe on death row.
Speaker 1: Like that's the that's the same kind of correctional criminal
Speaker 1: justice instinct that seems to be driving the cancelation of
Speaker 1: these And I have a lot of problems with anything
Speaker 1: that deeply impacts families negatively based on instinct rather than
Speaker 1: data and science. I think you really need to go
Speaker 1: to the trouble of producing your argument against in these
Speaker 1: cases rather than just canceling them out right with very
Speaker 1: little um problems from the public. Yeah, because there's there's
Speaker 1: generally four arguments that are used against and to me,
Speaker 1: each of them have a lot of holes in them.
Speaker 1: Um cost, morality, security, and punishment cost. You know, they
Speaker 1: they do charge people. Those costs are offsets some but
Speaker 1: there's no like like you said, give me the data
Speaker 1: when you interview some of these people and some of
Speaker 1: these politicians ends that have said no, you know, this
Speaker 1: is this costing us a fortune? And we're like, well,
Speaker 1: all right, how much does it costing show us? And
Speaker 1: they'll be like, well, we don't really have a spreadsheet
Speaker 1: on that, but I'm sure it's a lot. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it literally say things like that like well, you know
Speaker 1: it hits the budget though. So there's there's one thing
Speaker 1: you can poke holes in morality. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that one falls apart immediately, because, uh, what is more
Speaker 1: moral than families being able to spend time with one
Speaker 1: another and strengthening a family bond, or at least attempting to.
Speaker 1: But that's what I'm saying. They use that public image
Speaker 1: of what a conjugal visit is and the idea that
Speaker 1: you know, and it may any inmate can just have
Speaker 1: sex with anybody they want during these visits, and then
Speaker 1: they just don't explain what's actually being canceled. They just
Speaker 1: call them conjugal visits and then that's that, right, because
Speaker 1: STD transmission was one sided by um, who was it
Speaker 1: Mississippi State Rep. Richard Bennett. Uh, and like you know,
Speaker 1: where's the data or is our STDs being spread through
Speaker 1: conjugal visits. They're not because there is no data, but
Speaker 1: it's something very grabby on the news to hear. Um
Speaker 1: security is another argument. But you know, show me that
Speaker 1: you can you can manage security, like that's something you
Speaker 1: can actually control, you know, whether it's um like maybe
Speaker 1: not a camera in the bedroom, but you can have
Speaker 1: cameras in the apartment. You can really watch them. You
Speaker 1: can come in every two hours and inspect things. You know,
Speaker 1: you can actually control security and make it a secure environment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I also understand that the absence of evidence isn't proof,
Speaker 1: but I would guess that if anybody had been harmed, hurt, killed, maimed,
Speaker 1: abused during any of these one time, once in the
Speaker 1: history of these things in the United States, we would
Speaker 1: know all about it, and that would have been that
Speaker 1: that would have canceled everything. Just like in Germany, it
Speaker 1: hasn't come up. Like the fact that we didn't run
Speaker 1: across it is is pretty significant to me. I'm surprised
Speaker 1: they didn't lay it on Germany. I'm surprised the look
Speaker 1: it happened here, look like it's all Merkel's fault. Um.
Speaker 1: New Mexico was a state that that also had sort
Speaker 1: of the same and the reasoning is generally the same
Speaker 1: wherever you go, which was some kind of moral outrage. Uh.
Speaker 1: In this case, there was um Michael Guzman who was
Speaker 1: a prisoner in New Mexico that um, he was actually
Speaker 1: a convicted murderer. So I'm really surprised that that he
Speaker 1: was even allowed. I'm not sure how that happened. But
Speaker 1: he conceived four children with different women, uh, different wives
Speaker 1: in conjugal visits, so he was getting married to different
Speaker 1: women in prison and having kids. And that was sort
Speaker 1: of like the poster child in New Mexico for why
Speaker 1: they shouldn't do stuff like that, right exactly, So that
Speaker 1: one guy is basically the one thing that American extended
Speaker 1: family visitation can hang its hat on for anybody who's
Speaker 1: looking to get rid of those things. But then the
Speaker 1: the other part of the moral thing, and I said
Speaker 1: it earlier, the idea that it's up to Department of
Speaker 1: Corrections officials or state representatives to decide whether a family
Speaker 1: of an incarcerated person, whether these parents want to have
Speaker 1: another kid or not. It has nothing to do with them.
Speaker 1: It's not up to these prison officials to decide that
Speaker 1: kind of family planning, and it's smacks of eugenics and
Speaker 1: racism to to think that they that that's it's something
Speaker 1: they talk about publicly. It's something they cite that you know,
Speaker 1: we don't want people having, you know, kids even though
Speaker 1: they're married, because the mom's just going to be a
Speaker 1: single parent or the dad's going to be a single parent,
Speaker 1: and um, it's just not something we're interested in. That
Speaker 1: That one really gets my gets my goat. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: thing that gets my goat is just the lack of
Speaker 1: data and this gut reaction thing. The Department of Corrections
Speaker 1: in New Mexico said they didn't see an upside and
Speaker 1: they told local media that after two years of research,
Speaker 1: we found that it did not affect recidivism rates. And
Speaker 1: they said, oh, well, can I see the details of
Speaker 1: the study, and they said, well, it was not so
Speaker 1: much a study. The toural quote was we looked at
Speaker 1: um individual inmates. There was no study. Oh well, where's
Speaker 1: the report on it then? And this is, well, we
Speaker 1: don't have one, right. I basically just went through a
Speaker 1: couple of files before I came out here. You're a
Speaker 1: local paper. I'm blown away that you asked any follow
Speaker 1: up questions whatsoever, I think is what you're saying. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing is, one side of this argument is
Speaker 1: not studied. There are no reports, there's very little research
Speaker 1: and data. The other side has a lot of data, actually,
Speaker 1: and we know that I think it was I'm trying
Speaker 1: to find who did the study that found Yeah, study
Speaker 1: and there was a sixty seven percent decrease in recidivism
Speaker 1: with programs like this installed. Yeah, the human the Minnesota
Speaker 1: Department of Corrections also did a study that basically back
Speaker 1: that up too. And the thing is is, um, if
Speaker 1: you talk to prison officials typically and like the ones
Speaker 1: who actually work in the prisons and criminologists, like people
Speaker 1: who actually have degrees in studying this kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: they say, no, this is actually a really good program
Speaker 1: and it does have an impact on recitativism. Because UM,
Speaker 1: while we're still compiling data on extended family visits uh
Speaker 1: as as it stands, we do know that the family
Speaker 1: is in a really important factor in this transition to
Speaker 1: UM from prison to society, and so anything that could
Speaker 1: strengthen that bond is a plus. The other thing we
Speaker 1: didn't really talk about was the cost. People point to
Speaker 1: the cost and cost savings and stuff. UM. I think
Speaker 1: New Mexico before they shut theirs down, it was a
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year for this program.
Speaker 1: UM Washington State spends eighties six thousand dollars a year,
Speaker 1: and both of those prison systems charged families to have
Speaker 1: these visitations. So the idea that they don't work and
Speaker 1: that they're expensive, and that there's a more a component
Speaker 1: to them, there's basically no argument against. And then there's
Speaker 1: data in favor of the argument for these things, and
Speaker 1: yet they seem to be going the way of disco
Speaker 1: in the United States sadly. Yeah, and not only UH.
Speaker 1: I mean you can just talk about regular visits. There
Speaker 1: was a study in two thousand eleven UM that found
Speaker 1: the inmates who got just regular standard visits, these are
Speaker 1: not conjugal, these are not extended or overnight family visits,
Speaker 1: just visiting people in person while in prison were less
Speaker 1: likely to return to prison than inmate who received no visits. Yea.
Speaker 1: So they also very surprisingly to UM. And controversially, there
Speaker 1: was a study that found that prisons in stare correctional
Speaker 1: um UH systems in states that never had any family
Speaker 1: visitation programs had four times more inmate on inmate sexual
Speaker 1: assault than than prisons that don't, which apparently really flies
Speaker 1: in the face of common wisdom, common consensus on what
Speaker 1: the purpose of sexual assault in prison is that everybody
Speaker 1: thinks it's power based. They're like, actually, there might be
Speaker 1: a sexual aspect to it as well that had been
Speaker 1: overlooked to this point. Yeah, like sexual desires not being
Speaker 1: met um. And you're right that that is contrary to
Speaker 1: everything we've ever heard about sexual assault in prison, I think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And while it's kind of rich to point to anecdotal data,
Speaker 1: after just disassembling anecdotal data, there is um a lot
Speaker 1: of sentiment, including among Washington States Department of Corrections, they
Speaker 1: have a brochure for their family visitation UM that basically
Speaker 1: says an isolated inmate is a dangerous inmate UM. So
Speaker 1: that one of the sentiments that kind of was carried
Speaker 1: along for family visitation and visitation in general is this
Speaker 1: idea that it keeps prisoners in line in the prison,
Speaker 1: which improves security in the prison as well. Yeah, see
Speaker 1: our episode on or was that in the prisons episode
Speaker 1: which were one on solitary, we did one on solitude
Speaker 1: we did and we did a prisons one too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean that's we've got a nice little robust and
Speaker 1: we're popular in prisons too, so yeah, we help prisoners
Speaker 1: learn to read sometimes. Yeah, so they might be listening
Speaker 1: to this right now. Yes, special shout out to all
Speaker 1: the prisoners listening to this. Stay up. If someone is
Speaker 1: listening to this with a family during their family visit,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I would really like to hear about that.
Speaker 1: I think that's some T shirts right there. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: at the very least. So yeah, let us know and
Speaker 1: we'll send you some T shirts because that's a that
Speaker 1: is one heck of a specific listen. Uh. Well, like
Speaker 1: you said, this is definitely going away though in a
Speaker 1: big way in the US down to seven states now, Um,
Speaker 1: I mean prison visits. I don't know if they're really
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of them. COVID has given them
Speaker 1: a big opportunity to do that because more and more
Speaker 1: prison visit um policies or programs have revolved around like
Speaker 1: zoom meetings and virtual meetings and stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: with COVID, that's a UM I could see it being
Speaker 1: used to be like do we really want to bring
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of costs associated with just regular visits.
Speaker 1: You know, we could just set up a computer room
Speaker 1: and have them going there and have little zoom meetings
Speaker 1: with their family. Yeah, by which I mean is better
Speaker 1: than nothing. But if these extended family visits are the
Speaker 1: gold standard, and then standard visits are the whole hume
Speaker 1: standard virtual visits, I mean yeah, I mean I've done
Speaker 1: zoom hangouts before and they get old really fast, they do.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what. Of course, my heart is
Speaker 1: bleeding on this one. But like do those like every day? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I wonder though if there's just as many restrictions around
Speaker 1: those two, because I think you have to, you know,
Speaker 1: demonstrate that you're in good standing in your prison too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's it that it's time you hear somebody trying
Speaker 1: to cancel family extended family visitation in your state. Maybe
Speaker 1: don't just say yeah, serves him right, It's like, think
Speaker 1: about it. Maybe vote against it if you want to.
Speaker 1: With this episode, touched you like an angel? Touched by
Speaker 1: an angel? You got anything else? Nothing? Uh? Well, since
Speaker 1: I said touched by an angel, of course as usual,
Speaker 1: that means it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: call this one short and sweet factoid from a movie crusher.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure Aaron Mazel is a movie crusher. Uh,
Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck, good morning. Just listen to the episode
Speaker 1: on Francis Perkins. I'm guessing you guys have seen the
Speaker 1: movie Dirty Dancing. Well, Aaron, if you listen to our
Speaker 1: shorty on the disappearing like disappearing like you know we have. Well,
Speaker 1: there's a part where Johnny asked Baby what her real
Speaker 1: name is. And I don't remember this in the movie,
Speaker 1: but she said her response was Frances after the first
Speaker 1: woman in the cabinet. So Baby in the movie Dirty
Speaker 1: Dancing was named after Francis Perkins, right, amazing. Nobody puts
Speaker 1: Francis in the cabinet. Well somebody did. Oh wait, yeah,
Speaker 1: it didn't work. That's one of the best. That's seriously
Speaker 1: are and that's one of the best facts I've ever
Speaker 1: heard in my entire life. Best movie movie trivia ever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and very very much on the download. I think I
Speaker 1: bet most people who are Dirty Dancing heads did not
Speaker 1: catch that line. And know what I meant, you have
Speaker 1: to know both of those things. He didn't. There's probably
Speaker 1: a very small Now it might just be Aaron Mozzelle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's to Aaron Moselle. Listen to mails in like a
Speaker 1: week or two. She's got to get some sort of
Speaker 1: trophy for that. Did I read another one from her? Yeah?
Speaker 1: She was the one who wrote in with the s
Speaker 1: y five k oh really Yeah, that's she may not
Speaker 1: be a movie crusher, then maybe I'm just remembering from
Speaker 1: that she probably is. I mean there's a lot of crossover,
Speaker 1: right all right, Well, um, if you wanna let us
Speaker 1: know something so astounding that you get put on list sooner,
Speaker 1: mail twice in like a week, we want to hear it.
Speaker 1: We're really ready for those kind of emails, go ahead
Speaker 1: and send them off to Stuff podcast at i heart
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