WEBVTT - Conjugal Visits: Not exactly what you think 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of My 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:12.440 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.120 I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.280 there's Jerry over there, and this is Stuff you Should Know. 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.400 Another prison edition. We're starting to fill it out a 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.400 little bit. I don't know. I don't remember even talking 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.360 about this in our prison episode. Did we There's just 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.200 no way we didn't mention it. Somehow we certainly didn't 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:34.400 go into depth. I remember wanting to do this for 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.240 a while, um and looking into it before and being like, oh, 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:42.159 it's not really a thing. Luckily you put um Julia 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.280 Layton on it and she did a little more digging 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.159 and it turned out it was, um kind of a 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:52.319 human rights criminology thing. Yeah, but you're sort of right 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:54.800 that it's not really much of a thing, which is sad. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:01:00.800 I've learned. Yeah, I think so, I think any Yeah, 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:02.520 I think we'll get to it. But yes, I'm in 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:06.800 favor of um extended family visits, which may or may 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:14.199 not include sex. Yeah, I got that from uh now. 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:18.199 Hob Goblins and the Mystery Science Theater three thousand version 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.760 of hob goblins. It's it's pretty great. Just just go 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.319 check it out. It will show up eventually. Yeah. Well, 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.840 I mean you mentioned um sexy time, and I think 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.720 when you think of conjugal visits, m'st the ford. I mean, 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.199 that's originally what it was. And we'll get to the history. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.200 But that's the first thing you probably think of, is 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:43.279 a time set aside at a certain place at a prison. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.000 Probably not you know, a separate building at a prison 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.480 where uh, and you generally think of like a wife 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.320 going to have sex with her inmate husband. Yeah. And 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:57.360 in fact, I mean that's actually pretty good term for it, 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:03.000 because in in biology, to conjugate means to um become 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:08.800 temporarily united in order to exchange genetic material. Man, if 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.440 that's not a clinical term, I have never heard one before. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.800 It there with mouth parts, I mean yeah, it does. Um, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.919 everybody's heard of conjugal visits. I mean, like it's just 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.639 kind of like this legendary mythological thing. Like if you've 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:24.919 ever seen a Bugs Bunny cartoon from the forties, you 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.320 know about conjugal visits. You know what I mean. No, 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.240 I'm just kidding. But you can see it though, couldn't you? 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.320 Wouldn't that be like one of those random things whereas 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.880 an adult you went back and you're like, I can't believe, 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.239 like this is part of this cartoon. I think I 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.960 would be surprised if Bugs Bunny featured prison or sex. 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.120 So yeah, I'd be pretty surprised, all right, I guarantee 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.160 prisons made an appearance. But the thing is is, there 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:52.359 does seem to be like a huge misunderstanding about conjugal 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.840 visits or an understanding about them, but then a complete 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.320 lack of understanding about how much further these visits go 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.720 um and and actually I think that that kind of 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.720 has led to their decline because you need public support 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.120 to keep something like that up, because it's really easy 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.880 to get rid of if you are are so minded, 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.480 it's very easy to get rid of. And as you'll 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.600 see or you know or here, uh, that's been happening 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.560 over the course of the past twenty years in a 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:25.320 big way, and a big reason is because what you 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.160 mentioned earlier, what we're really talking about these days in 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.720 the United States, and we'll get to other countries. Other 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:35.320 countries are like bring it, do it six ways to 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.640 Sunday a couple of times a month, but no, like 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.200 we really have to watch. Um. They're they're called extended 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.960 family visits. UH. In New York they're called family reunion visits. 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.960 And it's really easy for a politician of a certain 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.240 kind of politician that doesn't want this kind of thing 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.760 going on, to just lump it in there as you know, 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:04.080 your taxpayer dollar are going toward uh, these hardcore criminals 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.040 just being able to have sex, and like, why would 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.800 we support that? They can go not the case, They 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.440 can say watch this, I'm physically conservative and tough on criminals. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.120 And then the people say how much did you save? 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.040 And they go, yeah, well, let's get to that too. 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.160 So let's talk about, um, how we'll explain how how 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.919 much beyond what the public's understanding of conjugal visitor that 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.240 it goes. But let's talk about the origins of these things. 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:35.560 You want to Yeah, the basically racist origins. In Mississippi, uh, 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.880 Mississippi State penn In the early nineteen hundreds, there was 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.960 a for profit labor camp called Parchment Farm where the 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:49.000 UH warden basically said, you know what, Um, everybody knows 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.000 that that black men have an insatiable sex drive, and 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.200 that's one reason they're in here to begin with. So 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.359 if we get these guys having a little bit of 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.000 sex as an incentive, then they're gonna work harder for 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.640 us and increase our profits. That that's the origin of 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:12.239 conjugal visits period. Really, that's it. And so this warden 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.680 started this program UM at Parchment, which became I believe 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:21.640 the Mississippi State Penitentiary UM. And this was in what 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.159 en Uh yeah, nineteen eighteen is when he started bringing 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.360 in sex workers, right, and you just hit the nail 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.200 on the head as it were, UM on Sundays. Last 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.719 on Sundays, the warden would bring in UM sex workers 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:42.920 for to um lay with the inmates and do more 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.160 than just laying. Yeah, Like married, not a problem, Single, 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.440 not a problem. We got the shack out in the 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.440 back and uh, you know, I don't know if you 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:54.440 want to be like tenth on that list for the day, 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.520 but that's uh, that's how we're gonna do things around here. Yeah, 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.200 and like that, you were right about the racist origins 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.599 of it, because it wasn't until twelve years after that 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:07.200 program was instituted that it was extended to white inmates. 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.359 And then it wasn't another I think fifty four years 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.680 before it was finally extended to female to women femine 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:19.599 female inmates. UM. And along the way, what's crazy is 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.800 between that that gulf of time nineteen eighteen and in 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.120 nineteen seventy two when women were first became eligible in 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.960 Mississippi for conjugal visits, it underwent this kind of like 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:36.600 surprising enlightenment transition to where there was a nineteen sixty 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.359 six maybe study that was done on it, and in 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.680 the notes on the study, like some criminologist or or 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:48.159 um Corrections official basically said, you know, this is possibly 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.000 one of the most enlightened programs in in the entire 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:58.240 Corrections UM field, in the entire country Mississippi. What grew 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.919 out of their racist conjugal visit program became something like 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.360 genuinely enlightened, which was pretty interesting. Yeah, and we should 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.320 note that, UM in nineteen sixty three is when they 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.080 were not bringing in sex sex workers. At that point 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.080 you had to be married and it had to be 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.600 your spouse. Uh. And that's an important distinction. But for 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.440 you know, forty five years, it seems like they were 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:26.960 bringing in every Sunday sex workers too, too, I guess, um. Yeah, 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.840 to to incentivize these guys. Yeah, right, right, And so 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.520 I think that's where the transition came, where it became 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.000 enlightened as it went from an incentive to get them 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.200 to work harder because Parchment was a for profit prison 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.880 labor camp, which, by the way, if you're if you're like, 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:48.440 what is that, go watch the Ava du verne Um 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.760 documentary and the Thirteenth Amendment, one of the most mind 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.280 altering documentaries you will ever see. Really really well done, 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.480 but really kind of drives home the idea of prison 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.320 labor is an extension of slavery. But that was what 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.880 this was. This was Jim Crow slavery. It was legal 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.520 slavery after slavery was abolished, And so the whole thing 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.560 was to get these inmates to work harder. But then 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.560 over time they said, well, no, wait a minute, maybe 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.240 this is actually like good for society. Weirdly, it's going 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:20.200 to keep these family ties between the inmates and the 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:24.600 people they've been separated from, you know, just linked enough 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.240 that when they go back out on the outside, they're 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:28.640 not just gonna go back to a life of crime. 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.320 They're still gonna have these relationships that they had before 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.520 they went in. Yeah, and so you know, as as 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.640 everyone knows, as things go in Mississippi, they generally follow 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:42.240 in the rest of the United States. And extended visitation 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.000 is what they were calling it. Well, I guess they 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.240 call it conjugal visits. But um, in the sixties is 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.400 when it started to spread to more and more states 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:55.120 around the United States. I think California in South Carolina 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.880 had programs in the late sixties. New York and Minnesota 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.160 jumped on board in the seven these I think in 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.679 the eighties, Uh, some other states, New Mexico and Wyoming 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.320 got on board, and then I guess we would call 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.920 it the Golden Age of conjugal visits. In the early 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:16.320 nineties there were seventeen states that allowed some sort of 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.240 extended visitation. Yeah, but so that was the peak. And 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.640 one of the reasons the early nineties were the peak 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:28.000 was because about the early eighties, UM, the United States said, 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:32.120 you know what, this whole like rehabilitation thing that's kicked 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.840 off in the fifties, This idea that prison was meant 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.760 to rehabilitate people and turn them into better citizenis it 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.360 didn't work. And we think it's all a bunch of 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.520 who we and UM we're going to abandon that and 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.720 get tough on crime. And that's what happened. I mean 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.240 throughout the eighties and the nineties, we got super tough 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:54.319 on crime, super conservative about how we treat criminals and prisoners. 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.840 And the idea became, if you were in prison, you 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.480 were in there for a reason, and you you should 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.000 not have any kind of frills or um or moments 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.320 of joy. You're supposed to be in there to be punished, 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.000 maybe to reflect on what you did wrong, but at 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:14.000 the really ultimately this is punishment. And um, we're not 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.000 going to treat you like a human being any longer 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.320 you're a prisoner. It's a different kind of person. And 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.480 part of that is taking away conjugal visits. Right, And 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.040 that line of thinking, like you said, was a pretty 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:29.640 big sea change in and now we don't have crime. Right, 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.960 it worked. New Gingrich's plan worked. Should we take a boy, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:35.960 I think we should take a break on New Gingrich. Right, 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:38.679 let's all take a break on New Ingra. Let's take 0:10:38.679 --> 0:11:04.880 a little break and we'll be back right after this. Alright, Chuck, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.559 so um, let's talk a little bit about like what 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.439 these things evolved too along the way, because if you're 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.880 just sitting there like, Okay, so prisoners can't have sex anymore, 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.800 that's really not the end of the world to me. Well, 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.120 prepare for your heart to bleed a little more than 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.920 it is right now, because over time, these conjugal visits 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:28.200 developed into order, like you said, called extended family visits 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:33.679 or family reunion visits, and they involved not just spouses, um, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:38.439 but also kids. Um. The parents of the inmate might 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.680 come to visit, UM, siblings might come to visit, and 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.280 there was no sex involved. It was family time. Like 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.240 that was the point of the whole thing, was to 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.160 spend time with family. And Um. If you read some 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.720 of the accounts of the children of inmates who have 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.079 memories of going to these extended family visits, um, they 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.720 formed these are like the memories of their lifetime, Like 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.520 these are some of their best childhood memories. Ironically enough, Yeah, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.720 and you know, the whole purpose here is is primarily twofold, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.360 which is incentive. It's still an incentive to get inmates 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.920 to follow the rules because as you'll see as we 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:19.320 detail the stuff, um, you really really have to follow 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.960 the rules. Like very few prisoners are even eligible for 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.240 this kind of thing. Um. And then the other thing is, 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.920 you know, just to foster that family tie so once 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.840 you get out, you don't have that that cliche you 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.000 see in the movie where you come home from prison 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.880 and you have these strangers sitting in your house that 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:44.119 are your children, and there's at least some small modicum 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:48.160 of of a relationship of some sort of a tie 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.160 emotional tie with a parent and a child or like 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.480 you said, the parent of the inmate, or you know, spouses. 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.720 They're still involved obviously, So when they get out, the 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.800 idea is that they have of a support system. They're 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.560 waiting on them and not like, well now I have 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.280 the super awkward uh moment where I have to come 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.480 in and and get to know my teenage children, right, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.920 or you know, like this is really hard on me. 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.720 I think I'm going to go back to crime or 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.000 go back to addiction or whatever. So the idea that 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.360 there's this structure that remains in place and solid during 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.800 their imprisonment, that the the thought is that that just 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:32.400 helps them ease into normal society afterwards. Yeah, like we 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:34.280 really need to drive that home because I think the 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.680 way I said it, there might be people saying, well, 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:38.920 so what if it's super awkward. You shouldn't have committed 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.679 the crime. It's not that it can be so awkward 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.440 enough putting that it can. It can cause someone like 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.000 you said, to not go home and to not want 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.839 to face their family that they don't know, and all 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.600 of a sudden, they're they're alone out there. And as 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.600 we'll see, we have statistics to back it up. Recidivism 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.720 is UH is a big problem in this really really helps. 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:02.960 It's also a bone head word. It is a bone 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.520 head word. The thing is too is also it's not 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.920 necessarily even just awkward for him, but there's there's expectations 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.200 that are on them when they come back home. They 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.240 have people that they're accountable to, which helps that transition 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.600 because you know, and you can imagine that the transition 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:24.960 that period immediately after prison life into normal society. I'm 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.720 not sure if it's weeks or months, maybe longer. Um 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.440 that is the the most difficult part of getting back 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.040 into society. And so have a family and a home 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.200 to go to that that just changes things. They make 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:41.480 movies about it, they do, and bugs money cartoons. So 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.440 here's UH, and we'll get to some of these stories 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.600 two in a second. But here's how it works depending 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.920 on where you are. Um, because it's different at every 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.720 prison in every state has their own. And I think 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.240 we should also point out that it's only state prisons 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.640 where it's even allowed at all, Like if you're in 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.480 federal prison, there isn't anything like that from what I 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:05.080 could find. Yeah, but um, they try to set it up. 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.240 I mean it depends on whether there's a uh like 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.560 a shack in the back or a trailer sometimes. Um, 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.720 I think they try to make them a little homier 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.080 these days, and what they're looking to do is sort 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.480 of recreate some sense of normalcy over the one to 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.160 four days that you're allowed to be with your family. Uh. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.040 This one in Connecticut, McDougall Walker Correctional Institution. I think 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.360 it's the biggest prison in the New England area. They 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.480 have a full on, like two bedroom apartment with a 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.760 kitchen and they can bring in food and cook meals 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.760 together and watch movies. I think they they have like 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.080 stock DVDs and stuff like that. Um, but I think 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.040 you are allowed to even bring in Everything is heavily inspected, 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:48.640 of course, but you are allowed to bring in food 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.480 to cook like your favorite family meal. They're not just like, well, 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:53.840 here's what you got from the prison pantry. Yeah, that's 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.960 what I um saw as well. And I think more 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.360 than just um, I think that's part part an economical 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.560 decision too, because they also charge. Um there's you know, 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.920 it can be a nominal fee, like in I think 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.640 New York maybe or Washington. I think Washington, it's like 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.120 ten dollars a visit or something like that. But um, 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.200 you know, every penny counts in some of the budget 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.320 deficited prisons in the United States. UM, so they do 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:25.960 kind of count those pennies. But more more to the point, 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.280 the point of bringing in outside food is to create 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:33.479 that sense of normalcy for the family. Um. It's basically 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.880 like a staycation on prison grounds is what I what like, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.880 ideally is what I got from from the research I did. Yeah, 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:46.040 and if if the prisoner's favorite dessert is uh, fingernail 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.760 file cake, that's what they're getting. That can't be helped 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.040 talk about a movie trope. Has that ever happened in 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.040 the history of the world. I don't know. We gotta 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.280 find out now, though you just threw down the gauntlet 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.640 like a prison a fingernail file being snuck in a 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.200 cake and that leading to an escape. I think it's 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.199 I think it's probably never happened. We'll find out. That 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.400 reminds me that I've been wanting to do an episode 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.919 on the Three Stooges that maybe a two parter. Okay, 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:18.760 that's a prepare for no women to listen. It's so great, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.360 they're so good man. Yeah, it's kind of a dude's thing, 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.520 though maybe we'll change that with our episodes. There there 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.280 should have been a counterpart, Yeah, you know, I wonder 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.680 if there was. I'm sure they tried that out at 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.879 some point during the middle. Well, I think the idea 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.840 of a show with three women that are morons that 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.159 just kind of abuse each other physically was probably not 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.159 very realistic or believable, not like the real studoges. And 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.040 how realistic that was, right, man, Seriously, I watched that 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.959 sometimes still today and it's classic. Yes, it it really is, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.320 and for a good reason. It's it's hilarious, but also 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.440 just so well choreographed and those dudes worked hard. We 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:04.919 should totally do a an episode on that. So. Um So, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.440 while while you've got this staycation going on with your family, 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.320 with your children, with your wife or your husband, um, 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:18.000 and you're you're having a good time, you're relaxing. Um. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.960 Every four hours, depending on where you are, there's probably 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.360 going to be a visit from a guard that says, hey, 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.679 I gotta search some stuff. Because it's it's important to 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.000 point out like this is not it's not like this. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.040 This occurs on the prison grounds. It's part of prison. 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.600 It's just a modified part of prison. So there's plenty 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.040 of rules and restrictions that that are meant to keep 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.639 security tight, prevent contraband from being transferred from you know, 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.800 the visitors to the inmate um, and uh, to just 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.200 kind of keep things on the up and up basically, Yeah, like, uh, 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.199 for instance, you can't just waltz in there, like if 0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:01.359 you've got a new uh sexy penpal in um he said, well, 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:02.800 I want to get a visit from this person. Now, 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:04.720 you can't just waltz in there as a first timer 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.000 and pop in and have a conjugal visit or even 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.240 a family visit, whatever you want to call it. You 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.480 have to have it. I mean, it depends on where 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.199 you are again, but like in New York, you have 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.240 to have been at least a visitor standard visitor, three 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.600 other times in the previous twelve months. So you have 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.679 to be someone they know, someone who has proven to 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:31.199 be you know, a real like connection in your life. Um, 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.600 you have to undergo health screening. And this is everyone 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.200 like kids, anyone that's gonna stay in this apartment. Um, 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.159 you're gonna get health screened. Obviously for conjugal visit, you're 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.639 gonna get STD tested. Um. Like you mentioned, it depends 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.200 on where you are. Lots of searches. Um. I don't 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.560 know if I know, California was every four hours, but 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.560 I imagine they'd like to spring those on you as well. Yeah, 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:55.640 I would guess so too. Not like they'll be back 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:57.640 in four hours for the next one. I could kind 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.840 of see like guards look king the other way or 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.000 going kind of easy on these things, Like I could. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:07.080 I could. It just seems from every account that I've read, 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.600 it seems like an overbearing, mean guard is not the 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.399 kind of guard they would put on this detail. It 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.439 just doesn't seem like it fits this whole vibe because, 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:21.160 like you said, the the um, the people who are 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.080 eligible for this are like the the model of the 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.480 model inmates, like they've really worked for this. Yeah, so 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:34.040 only state prisons. Uh you are. They're currently only allowed 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.600 in seven states, down from it's heyday in uh the 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.639 early nineties of seventeen. And you have to or I 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.080 guess it's UM. They set it up so you're highly 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.720 incentivised to do other jobs and other programs in order 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.239 to get these conjugal visits. So you have to like 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.840 maybe do us Uh you're involved in a school or 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.560 a work based program, some kind of reentry program, and 0:20:57.600 --> 0:20:59.280 you've got to show that you've done that and you've 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.800 been successful in that. Obviously the behavior like you can't 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.600 have any things on your violations in your in your prison, 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.800 uh stay at all, No, and certainly no recent ones. 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:12.520 Like I get the impression that you could have in 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.280 your past, but like you know, you probably couldn't have 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.760 in the last month or six months or some some 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.520 set amount of time. UM. And like you said, it 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.520 needs to be part of like this larger pattern of 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:28.480 UM working towards being rehabilitated, like being in a some 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.399 sort of school or diploma program or some sort of 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:35.959 work program something that basically combined with these family visits. 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.760 Says I'm thinking about how I'm going to behave on 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.920 the outside and it's going to be good. I'm gonna 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:46.280 wow you so that that these extended family visits are 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.680 kind of meant to support that and encourage that kind 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.240 of thing too. Yeah, And again, depending on the state 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.480 in the prison, Um, what you're in there for is 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.800 going to really matter. Um. Obviously, if you're convicted of 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:04.280 a ex crime domestic violence, any kind of violence against children, 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:08.359 you're not even going to be eligible. And the eligibility 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:12.479 is really low. Um. In two thousand thirteen, and this 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.520 was the last year that they could in New Mexico, 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.320 I think that they had conjugal visits. Only two of 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:23.159 state prison inmates qualified. In Mississippi. That same year it 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:27.160 was point zero zero seven nine percent in New York, 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.400 four percent in Washington. So the idea that you may 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:34.959 be sold on TV by an angry politician that you know, 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:37.199 all of these prisoners are just in there having the 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:42.320 time of their lives having sex is just false, right, Um. 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.240 But it's just so easy to fall for because people 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:48.040 don't you have to like look into this kind of stuff, 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.800 and who's going to do that. Nobody. So the weird 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.280 thing is, oh, yeah, so I forgot about us. Um 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.040 with an assist by Julia Layton's UM. But the thing 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:01.480 is is like those percentages and the fact that there's 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:07.960 only would you say, seven states now left at all UM, 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.800 and they're under they're under fire, as we'll see. But 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.520 the idea that UM the United States is kind of 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.200 slowly getting rid of its its UM extended family visit 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:22.000 system as part of prison life, that's that's a that's 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.760 weird as far as Western style democracies are concerned. UM. 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:31.240 Countries around the world, especially Western style democracies, but also 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:36.120 other ones allow for UM, if not extended family visits, 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.360 at the very least conjugal visits. So there's there's actually 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.160