1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of My 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: there's Jerry over there, and this is Stuff you Should Know. 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Another prison edition. We're starting to fill it out a 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: little bit. I don't know. I don't remember even talking 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: about this in our prison episode. Did we There's just 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: no way we didn't mention it. Somehow we certainly didn't 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: go into depth. I remember wanting to do this for 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: a while, um and looking into it before and being like, oh, 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: it's not really a thing. Luckily you put um Julia 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Layton on it and she did a little more digging 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: and it turned out it was, um kind of a 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,319 Speaker 1: human rights criminology thing. Yeah, but you're sort of right 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: that it's not really much of a thing, which is sad. 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: I've learned. Yeah, I think so, I think any Yeah, 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: I think we'll get to it. But yes, I'm in 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: favor of um extended family visits, which may or may 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 1: not include sex. Yeah, I got that from uh now. 20 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 1: Hob Goblins and the Mystery Science Theater three thousand version 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: of hob goblins. It's it's pretty great. Just just go 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: check it out. It will show up eventually. Yeah. Well, 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned um sexy time, and I think 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: when you think of conjugal visits, m'st the ford. I mean, 25 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,199 Speaker 1: that's originally what it was. And we'll get to the history. 26 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: But that's the first thing you probably think of, is 27 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,279 Speaker 1: a time set aside at a certain place at a prison. 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Probably not you know, a separate building at a prison 29 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: where uh, and you generally think of like a wife 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: going to have sex with her inmate husband. Yeah. And 31 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: in fact, I mean that's actually pretty good term for it, 32 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: because in in biology, to conjugate means to um become 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: temporarily united in order to exchange genetic material. Man, if 34 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: that's not a clinical term, I have never heard one before. 35 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: It there with mouth parts, I mean yeah, it does. Um, 36 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: everybody's heard of conjugal visits. I mean, like it's just 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: kind of like this legendary mythological thing. Like if you've 38 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: ever seen a Bugs Bunny cartoon from the forties, you 39 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: know about conjugal visits. You know what I mean. No, 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. But you can see it though, couldn't you? 41 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be like one of those random things whereas 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: an adult you went back and you're like, I can't believe, 43 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: like this is part of this cartoon. I think I 44 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: would be surprised if Bugs Bunny featured prison or sex. 45 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd be pretty surprised, all right, I guarantee 46 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: prisons made an appearance. But the thing is is, there 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: does seem to be like a huge misunderstanding about conjugal 48 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: visits or an understanding about them, but then a complete 49 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: lack of understanding about how much further these visits go 50 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: um and and actually I think that that kind of 51 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: has led to their decline because you need public support 52 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: to keep something like that up, because it's really easy 53 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: to get rid of if you are are so minded, 54 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: it's very easy to get rid of. And as you'll 55 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: see or you know or here, uh, that's been happening 56 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: over the course of the past twenty years in a 57 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: big way, and a big reason is because what you 58 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, what we're really talking about these days in 59 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: the United States, and we'll get to other countries. Other 60 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: countries are like bring it, do it six ways to 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: Sunday a couple of times a month, but no, like 62 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: we really have to watch. Um. They're they're called extended 63 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: family visits. UH. In New York they're called family reunion visits. 64 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: And it's really easy for a politician of a certain 65 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: kind of politician that doesn't want this kind of thing 66 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: going on, to just lump it in there as you know, 67 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: your taxpayer dollar are going toward uh, these hardcore criminals 68 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: just being able to have sex, and like, why would 69 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: we support that? They can go not the case, They 70 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: can say watch this, I'm physically conservative and tough on criminals. 71 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: And then the people say how much did you save? 72 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: And they go, yeah, well, let's get to that too. 73 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: So let's talk about, um, how we'll explain how how 74 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: much beyond what the public's understanding of conjugal visitor that 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: it goes. But let's talk about the origins of these things. 76 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: You want to Yeah, the basically racist origins. In Mississippi, uh, 77 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: Mississippi State penn In the early nineteen hundreds, there was 78 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: a for profit labor camp called Parchment Farm where the 79 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: UH warden basically said, you know what, Um, everybody knows 80 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: that that black men have an insatiable sex drive, and 81 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: that's one reason they're in here to begin with. So 82 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: if we get these guys having a little bit of 83 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: sex as an incentive, then they're gonna work harder for 84 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: us and increase our profits. That that's the origin of 85 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 1: conjugal visits period. Really, that's it. And so this warden 86 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: started this program UM at Parchment, which became I believe 87 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: the Mississippi State Penitentiary UM. And this was in what 88 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: en Uh yeah, nineteen eighteen is when he started bringing 89 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: in sex workers, right, and you just hit the nail 90 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: on the head as it were, UM on Sundays. Last 91 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: on Sundays, the warden would bring in UM sex workers 92 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: for to um lay with the inmates and do more 93 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: than just laying. Yeah, Like married, not a problem, Single, 94 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: not a problem. We got the shack out in the 95 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: back and uh, you know, I don't know if you 96 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: want to be like tenth on that list for the day, 97 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: but that's uh, that's how we're gonna do things around here. Yeah, 98 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: and like that, you were right about the racist origins 99 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: of it, because it wasn't until twelve years after that 100 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: program was instituted that it was extended to white inmates. 101 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: And then it wasn't another I think fifty four years 102 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: before it was finally extended to female to women femine 103 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: female inmates. UM. And along the way, what's crazy is 104 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: between that that gulf of time nineteen eighteen and in 105 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two when women were first became eligible in 106 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: Mississippi for conjugal visits, it underwent this kind of like 107 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: surprising enlightenment transition to where there was a nineteen sixty 108 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: six maybe study that was done on it, and in 109 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: the notes on the study, like some criminologist or or 110 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: um Corrections official basically said, you know, this is possibly 111 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: one of the most enlightened programs in in the entire 112 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: Corrections UM field, in the entire country Mississippi. What grew 113 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: out of their racist conjugal visit program became something like 114 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: genuinely enlightened, which was pretty interesting. Yeah, and we should 115 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: note that, UM in nineteen sixty three is when they 116 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: were not bringing in sex sex workers. At that point 117 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: you had to be married and it had to be 118 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: your spouse. Uh. And that's an important distinction. But for 119 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: you know, forty five years, it seems like they were 120 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: bringing in every Sunday sex workers too, too, I guess, um. Yeah, 121 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: to to incentivize these guys. Yeah, right, right, And so 122 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: I think that's where the transition came, where it became 123 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: enlightened as it went from an incentive to get them 124 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: to work harder because Parchment was a for profit prison 125 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: labor camp, which, by the way, if you're if you're like, 126 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: what is that, go watch the Ava du verne Um 127 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: documentary and the Thirteenth Amendment, one of the most mind 128 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: altering documentaries you will ever see. Really really well done, 129 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: but really kind of drives home the idea of prison 130 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: labor is an extension of slavery. But that was what 131 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: this was. This was Jim Crow slavery. It was legal 132 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: slavery after slavery was abolished, And so the whole thing 133 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: was to get these inmates to work harder. But then 134 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: over time they said, well, no, wait a minute, maybe 135 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: this is actually like good for society. Weirdly, it's going 136 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: to keep these family ties between the inmates and the 137 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: people they've been separated from, you know, just linked enough 138 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: that when they go back out on the outside, they're 139 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: not just gonna go back to a life of crime. 140 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: They're still gonna have these relationships that they had before 141 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: they went in. Yeah, and so you know, as as 142 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: everyone knows, as things go in Mississippi, they generally follow 143 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: in the rest of the United States. And extended visitation 144 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: is what they were calling it. Well, I guess they 145 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: call it conjugal visits. But um, in the sixties is 146 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: when it started to spread to more and more states 147 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: around the United States. I think California in South Carolina 148 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: had programs in the late sixties. New York and Minnesota 149 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: jumped on board in the seven these I think in 150 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: the eighties, Uh, some other states, New Mexico and Wyoming 151 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: got on board, and then I guess we would call 152 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: it the Golden Age of conjugal visits. In the early 153 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: nineties there were seventeen states that allowed some sort of 154 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: extended visitation. Yeah, but so that was the peak. And 155 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: one of the reasons the early nineties were the peak 156 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: was because about the early eighties, UM, the United States said, 157 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: you know what, this whole like rehabilitation thing that's kicked 158 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: off in the fifties, This idea that prison was meant 159 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: to rehabilitate people and turn them into better citizenis it 160 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: didn't work. And we think it's all a bunch of 161 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: who we and UM we're going to abandon that and 162 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: get tough on crime. And that's what happened. I mean 163 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: throughout the eighties and the nineties, we got super tough 164 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: on crime, super conservative about how we treat criminals and prisoners. 165 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: And the idea became, if you were in prison, you 166 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: were in there for a reason, and you you should 167 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: not have any kind of frills or um or moments 168 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: of joy. You're supposed to be in there to be punished, 169 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: maybe to reflect on what you did wrong, but at 170 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: the really ultimately this is punishment. And um, we're not 171 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: going to treat you like a human being any longer 172 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: you're a prisoner. It's a different kind of person. And 173 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: part of that is taking away conjugal visits. Right, And 174 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: that line of thinking, like you said, was a pretty 175 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: big sea change in and now we don't have crime. Right, 176 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: it worked. New Gingrich's plan worked. Should we take a boy, 177 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: I think we should take a break on New Gingrich. Right, 178 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: let's all take a break on New Ingra. Let's take 179 00:10:38,679 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: a little break and we'll be back right after this. Alright, Chuck, 180 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: so um, let's talk a little bit about like what 181 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: these things evolved too along the way, because if you're 182 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: just sitting there like, Okay, so prisoners can't have sex anymore, 183 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: that's really not the end of the world to me. Well, 184 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: prepare for your heart to bleed a little more than 185 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: it is right now, because over time, these conjugal visits 186 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: developed into order, like you said, called extended family visits 187 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: or family reunion visits, and they involved not just spouses, um, 188 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: but also kids. Um. The parents of the inmate might 189 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: come to visit, UM, siblings might come to visit, and 190 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: there was no sex involved. It was family time. Like 191 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: that was the point of the whole thing, was to 192 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: spend time with family. And Um. If you read some 193 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: of the accounts of the children of inmates who have 194 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: memories of going to these extended family visits, um, they 195 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: formed these are like the memories of their lifetime, Like 196 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: these are some of their best childhood memories. Ironically enough, Yeah, 197 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: and you know, the whole purpose here is is primarily twofold, 198 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: which is incentive. It's still an incentive to get inmates 199 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: to follow the rules because as you'll see as we 200 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: detail the stuff, um, you really really have to follow 201 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: the rules. Like very few prisoners are even eligible for 202 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Um. And then the other thing is, 203 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, just to foster that family tie so once 204 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: you get out, you don't have that that cliche you 205 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: see in the movie where you come home from prison 206 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: and you have these strangers sitting in your house that 207 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:44,119 Speaker 1: are your children, and there's at least some small modicum 208 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: of of a relationship of some sort of a tie 209 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: emotional tie with a parent and a child or like 210 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: you said, the parent of the inmate, or you know, spouses. 211 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: They're still involved obviously, So when they get out, the 212 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: idea is that they have of a support system. They're 213 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: waiting on them and not like, well now I have 214 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: the super awkward uh moment where I have to come 215 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: in and and get to know my teenage children, right, 216 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: or you know, like this is really hard on me. 217 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: I think I'm going to go back to crime or 218 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: go back to addiction or whatever. So the idea that 219 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: there's this structure that remains in place and solid during 220 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: their imprisonment, that the the thought is that that just 221 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: helps them ease into normal society afterwards. Yeah, like we 222 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: really need to drive that home because I think the 223 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: way I said it, there might be people saying, well, 224 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: so what if it's super awkward. You shouldn't have committed 225 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: the crime. It's not that it can be so awkward 226 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: enough putting that it can. It can cause someone like 227 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: you said, to not go home and to not want 228 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 1: to face their family that they don't know, and all 229 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: of a sudden, they're they're alone out there. And as 230 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: we'll see, we have statistics to back it up. Recidivism 231 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: is UH is a big problem in this really really helps. 232 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: It's also a bone head word. It is a bone 233 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: head word. The thing is too is also it's not 234 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: necessarily even just awkward for him, but there's there's expectations 235 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: that are on them when they come back home. They 236 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: have people that they're accountable to, which helps that transition 237 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: because you know, and you can imagine that the transition 238 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: that period immediately after prison life into normal society. I'm 239 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: not sure if it's weeks or months, maybe longer. Um 240 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: that is the the most difficult part of getting back 241 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: into society. And so have a family and a home 242 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: to go to that that just changes things. They make 243 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: movies about it, they do, and bugs money cartoons. So 244 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: here's UH, and we'll get to some of these stories 245 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: two in a second. But here's how it works depending 246 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: on where you are. Um, because it's different at every 247 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: prison in every state has their own. And I think 248 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: we should also point out that it's only state prisons 249 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: where it's even allowed at all, Like if you're in 250 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: federal prison, there isn't anything like that from what I 251 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: could find. Yeah, but um, they try to set it up. 252 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: I mean it depends on whether there's a uh like 253 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: a shack in the back or a trailer sometimes. Um, 254 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: I think they try to make them a little homier 255 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: these days, and what they're looking to do is sort 256 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: of recreate some sense of normalcy over the one to 257 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: four days that you're allowed to be with your family. Uh. 258 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: This one in Connecticut, McDougall Walker Correctional Institution. I think 259 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: it's the biggest prison in the New England area. They 260 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: have a full on, like two bedroom apartment with a 261 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: kitchen and they can bring in food and cook meals 262 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: together and watch movies. I think they they have like 263 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: stock DVDs and stuff like that. Um, but I think 264 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: you are allowed to even bring in Everything is heavily inspected, 265 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: of course, but you are allowed to bring in food 266 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: to cook like your favorite family meal. They're not just like, well, 267 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: here's what you got from the prison pantry. Yeah, that's 268 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: what I um saw as well. And I think more 269 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: than just um, I think that's part part an economical 270 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: decision too, because they also charge. Um there's you know, 271 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: it can be a nominal fee, like in I think 272 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: New York maybe or Washington. I think Washington, it's like 273 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: ten dollars a visit or something like that. But um, 274 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, every penny counts in some of the budget 275 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: deficited prisons in the United States. UM, so they do 276 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: kind of count those pennies. But more more to the point, 277 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: the point of bringing in outside food is to create 278 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,479 Speaker 1: that sense of normalcy for the family. Um. It's basically 279 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: like a staycation on prison grounds is what I what like, 280 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: ideally is what I got from from the research I did. Yeah, 281 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: and if if the prisoner's favorite dessert is uh, fingernail 282 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: file cake, that's what they're getting. That can't be helped 283 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: talk about a movie trope. Has that ever happened in 284 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: the history of the world. I don't know. We gotta 285 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: find out now, though you just threw down the gauntlet 286 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: like a prison a fingernail file being snuck in a 287 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: cake and that leading to an escape. I think it's 288 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: I think it's probably never happened. We'll find out. That 289 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: reminds me that I've been wanting to do an episode 290 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: on the Three Stooges that maybe a two parter. Okay, 291 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: that's a prepare for no women to listen. It's so great, 292 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: they're so good man. Yeah, it's kind of a dude's thing, 293 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: though maybe we'll change that with our episodes. There there 294 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: should have been a counterpart, Yeah, you know, I wonder 295 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: if there was. I'm sure they tried that out at 296 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: some point during the middle. Well, I think the idea 297 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: of a show with three women that are morons that 298 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: just kind of abuse each other physically was probably not 299 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: very realistic or believable, not like the real studoges. And 300 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: how realistic that was, right, man, Seriously, I watched that 301 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: sometimes still today and it's classic. Yes, it it really is, 302 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: and for a good reason. It's it's hilarious, but also 303 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: just so well choreographed and those dudes worked hard. We 304 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: should totally do a an episode on that. So. Um So, 305 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: while while you've got this staycation going on with your family, 306 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: with your children, with your wife or your husband, um, 307 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: and you're you're having a good time, you're relaxing. Um. 308 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: Every four hours, depending on where you are, there's probably 309 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: going to be a visit from a guard that says, hey, 310 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: I gotta search some stuff. Because it's it's important to 311 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: point out like this is not it's not like this. 312 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: This occurs on the prison grounds. It's part of prison. 313 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: It's just a modified part of prison. So there's plenty 314 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: of rules and restrictions that that are meant to keep 315 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: security tight, prevent contraband from being transferred from you know, 316 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: the visitors to the inmate um, and uh, to just 317 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: kind of keep things on the up and up basically, Yeah, like, uh, 318 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: for instance, you can't just waltz in there, like if 319 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: you've got a new uh sexy penpal in um he said, well, 320 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: I want to get a visit from this person. Now, 321 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: you can't just waltz in there as a first timer 322 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: and pop in and have a conjugal visit or even 323 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: a family visit, whatever you want to call it. You 324 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: have to have it. I mean, it depends on where 325 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: you are again, but like in New York, you have 326 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: to have been at least a visitor standard visitor, three 327 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: other times in the previous twelve months. So you have 328 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: to be someone they know, someone who has proven to 329 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: be you know, a real like connection in your life. Um, 330 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: you have to undergo health screening. And this is everyone 331 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: like kids, anyone that's gonna stay in this apartment. Um, 332 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: you're gonna get health screened. Obviously for conjugal visit, you're 333 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: gonna get STD tested. Um. Like you mentioned, it depends 334 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: on where you are. Lots of searches. Um. I don't 335 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: know if I know, California was every four hours, but 336 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: I imagine they'd like to spring those on you as well. Yeah, 337 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: I would guess so too. Not like they'll be back 338 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: in four hours for the next one. I could kind 339 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: of see like guards look king the other way or 340 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: going kind of easy on these things, Like I could. 341 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: I could. It just seems from every account that I've read, 342 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: it seems like an overbearing, mean guard is not the 343 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: kind of guard they would put on this detail. It 344 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: just doesn't seem like it fits this whole vibe because, 345 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: like you said, the the um, the people who are 346 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: eligible for this are like the the model of the 347 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: model inmates, like they've really worked for this. Yeah, so 348 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: only state prisons. Uh you are. They're currently only allowed 349 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: in seven states, down from it's heyday in uh the 350 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: early nineties of seventeen. And you have to or I 351 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: guess it's UM. They set it up so you're highly 352 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: incentivised to do other jobs and other programs in order 353 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,239 Speaker 1: to get these conjugal visits. So you have to like 354 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: maybe do us Uh you're involved in a school or 355 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: a work based program, some kind of reentry program, and 356 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: you've got to show that you've done that and you've 357 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: been successful in that. Obviously the behavior like you can't 358 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: have any things on your violations in your in your prison, 359 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: uh stay at all, No, and certainly no recent ones. 360 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: Like I get the impression that you could have in 361 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: your past, but like you know, you probably couldn't have 362 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: in the last month or six months or some some 363 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: set amount of time. UM. And like you said, it 364 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: needs to be part of like this larger pattern of 365 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: UM working towards being rehabilitated, like being in a some 366 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: sort of school or diploma program or some sort of 367 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 1: work program something that basically combined with these family visits. 368 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: Says I'm thinking about how I'm going to behave on 369 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: the outside and it's going to be good. I'm gonna 370 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: wow you so that that these extended family visits are 371 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: kind of meant to support that and encourage that kind 372 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: of thing too. Yeah, And again, depending on the state 373 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: in the prison, Um, what you're in there for is 374 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: going to really matter. Um. Obviously, if you're convicted of 375 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: a ex crime domestic violence, any kind of violence against children, 376 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: you're not even going to be eligible. And the eligibility 377 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: is really low. Um. In two thousand thirteen, and this 378 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: was the last year that they could in New Mexico, 379 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: I think that they had conjugal visits. Only two of 380 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: state prison inmates qualified. In Mississippi. That same year it 381 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: was point zero zero seven nine percent in New York, 382 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: four percent in Washington. So the idea that you may 383 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: be sold on TV by an angry politician that you know, 384 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: all of these prisoners are just in there having the 385 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: time of their lives having sex is just false, right, Um. 386 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: But it's just so easy to fall for because people 387 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: don't you have to like look into this kind of stuff, 388 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: and who's going to do that. Nobody. So the weird 389 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: thing is, oh, yeah, so I forgot about us. Um 390 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: with an assist by Julia Layton's UM. But the thing 391 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: is is like those percentages and the fact that there's 392 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: only would you say, seven states now left at all UM, 393 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: and they're under they're under fire, as we'll see. But 394 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: the idea that UM the United States is kind of 395 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: slowly getting rid of its its UM extended family visit 396 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: system as part of prison life, that's that's a that's 397 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: weird as far as Western style democracies are concerned. UM. 398 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: Countries around the world, especially Western style democracies, but also 399 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: other ones allow for UM, if not extended family visits, 400 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: at the very least conjugal visits. So there's there's actually 401 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: you can it's easier to point out the Western democracies 402 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: that don't allow it than it is that allow it. 403 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: The ones that stand out in particular are Japan, New Zealand, UM, 404 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: and Ireland, and the UK are they They absolutely don't. 405 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: New Zealand doesn't because they view it as too much 406 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: of a security risk and it's a huge political hot 407 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: potato over there to even suggest that they should do it. 408 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: And then Japan, apparently their prison system is just like 409 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: in the Dark Ages, it's meant to penalize criminals. They 410 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: can sit there and think about what they did. Apparently, 411 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: Japan is under fire constantly by human rights organizations for 412 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: like using torture and stuff like that in their prisons. Yeah, 413 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: they're like real backwards when it comes to prison for sure. Um, 414 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: But the idea is that it's it's part of a 415 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: liberal democracy to have this kind of program as part 416 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: of your prisons at the very least, just to to 417 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: keep your prison population less violent. Supposedly. Yeah. Um, countries 418 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: around the world where uh, there was about to say lax, 419 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: but that's not true. I'm sure it's still very structured 420 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: and organized, but more permissive. Um. India. You they say 421 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: it as a right and not a privilege as a 422 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: human being. Um. Saudi Arabia allows a conjugal visit per 423 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: wife per month. You know what that means. It means 424 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: multiple wives equals multiple conjugal visits. That's right. Latin America, 425 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: they are pretty generous with them. Brazil, the only requirement 426 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: for visitors is good behavior. Um. Sometimes that can mean weekly. 427 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: You don't have to be married. They do allow sex 428 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: workers in Brazil to come in Canada. Not surprisingly, they 429 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: allow three day family visits every two months for most inmates. 430 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: Where else Germany. They basically it was sort of like 431 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: anyone can get a conjugal visit up until about ten 432 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: years ago when, and this is of course the kind 433 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: of thing you're going to see all over the news, 434 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: there was an inmate, a rapist and murderer, who actually 435 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: killed his girlfriend during a conjugal visit. So they'd said 436 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: nine ruined it for everybody. Yeah, although I don't think 437 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: that they got rid of it. I think that they 438 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: just changed the restrictions a little more. Yeah, and that 439 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: is a real liar, obviously a terrible sad, sad case. 440 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: But um, that is that is I didn't see anything 441 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: else where anything like that had ever happened. But see, 442 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: that's the thing that gets people right in the the 443 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: hypothalamust or something, and all of a sudden they're like, 444 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: get rid of it, Bannon, and kill a few prisoners 445 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: while you're at it, for my satisfaction, because I need 446 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 1: to calm down, right. But so Russia, Spain, France, Turkey, Qatar, 447 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: Costa Rica, Mexico, Denmark, Australia and Israel all have, um, 448 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: all have programs that include at the very least conjugal visits, 449 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: if not family visits and like you said, Brazil and 450 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: most of South America, but the US is not not 451 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: hanging in there very well. We're just kind of slowly 452 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: but surely, UM, getting rid of these things little by little. 453 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: And from what I can tell, we keep talking about, 454 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, a politician pointing this out. All it takes 455 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: is one um determined politician and a couple of legislative 456 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: sessions and they're probably going to get their wish. And 457 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: that seems to be what's been happening around the United States. Yeah, 458 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like there is enough people on the 459 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: other side that really, really want to fight to keep 460 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: it going. Um. We've seen Julius in a couple of stories, 461 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: one from Vice and one from Medium where they talked 462 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: to real prisoners about the programs. And this one woman, 463 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: Bernadette stalbitz Um, she spent I think she had two 464 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: daughters in jail, in prison and was able to eventually 465 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: spend time with those girls and said, you know, these 466 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: fond memories playing tag, cooking chili, having long emotional conversations 467 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: into the night with their daughters that are now grown. Um, 468 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: these thirty six hour visits were treasured, and she said 469 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: if it weren't for these trailer visits, I wouldn't be 470 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: the woman that I am today. And that seems to 471 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: be the resounding message anytime you read these stories, is 472 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: that this is what made the different. It's for me 473 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: and doing my time, keeping sane and then doing the 474 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: right thing when I got out. Yeah, and if you 475 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to um, just kind of 476 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: get them touched in the heart by some of these 477 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: like read, uh, two point seven million kids have parents 478 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: in prison. They're losing their right to visit. That's a 479 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: headline UM for a Nation magazine article by Sylvia A. Harvey, 480 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: whose father was in prison, and she she was the 481 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: one I cited who said that some of her fondest 482 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: childhood memories are of these extended family visits. And she 483 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: interviews some some in profile, some other families who are 484 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: kind of trying to um, you know, keep their family 485 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: together while the father or the mothers in prison, but 486 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: are losing that because these um extended visitations are being 487 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: turned into just regular standard visitations. What most people think 488 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: like the arrested development, no touching, UM kind of visit, 489 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: like that's the Standard's what's called the standard visit and 490 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: they are not nearly satisfying because I think there's just 491 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: one thing we haven't really pointed out, Like, yes, it's 492 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: important to have these family connections, but the way that 493 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: these family connections are maintained is that in a standard 494 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: visit where say it's like thirty minutes maybe an hour, uh, 495 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: in a room with a bunch of other families and inmates, 496 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of corrections officers like standing right over you, 497 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: you're not going to have the conversations that you would 498 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: normally have, not not anything illegal or whatever, but just personal, 499 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: deeply personal stuff. And so to have one day or 500 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: two days or three days together as a family, those 501 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: conversations start to come up because in those standard visits 502 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: you've got like an hour, you don't have time to 503 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: bring up touchy stuff that could result in hard feelings 504 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: because you know that there's not enough time to complete 505 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: that cycle to smooth out the hard feelings. That's one 506 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: of the great benefits of these extended family visits is 507 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: you can have these tough conversations. You can argue, you 508 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,719 Speaker 1: can snipe, you can discipline your kids because you know 509 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: you have enough time to kind of work through it 510 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: and process it and then strengthen those family bonds on 511 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: on the other side of it. That's the vital importance 512 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: of these kind of visits, and that's why they're so effective. Yeah, 513 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: and I know our hearts are bleeding all over this episode. Fine, 514 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: but like I think you two, you would have to 515 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: have a zero heart to go beyond prison is for 516 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: punishment too. Prisonment is should be punishment for your entire family. Right, 517 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: that's a different thing. You know, these are children that 518 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: are suffering and that that may go down the wrong 519 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 1: path because if if not for stuff like this, like 520 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: there are a lot of other people involved, that it 521 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: would just help society as a whole if if a 522 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: little more empathy were involved. Yeah, and I think really 523 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: kind of that points out one of the big arguments, 524 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: which I think we should take a break and then 525 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: we'll talk about the arguments against. But one of the 526 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: arguments against Chuck is that, um, you know, people worry 527 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: that there's going to be children born to automatic scene 528 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: parents because the conjugal visits. It's like, well, what about 529 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,239 Speaker 1: the kids whose parents are already in jail? And if 530 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: you follow that, you know, ellipses all the way to 531 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: the end. The response is, well, those kids, those kids 532 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: should have been born then if their parents are in jail. 533 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: That's what they're kind of saying when they're saying one 534 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: of the reasons to cancel these programs because we don't 535 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: want them, we don't want pregnancies to result. All right, Well, 536 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: let's take a break. We'll talk about that, uh, rehabilitation 537 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: and punishment and then data in the lack of right 538 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: after this. All right, So, you know, we brought it 539 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: up in the prisons upisode. We brought it up in 540 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: this episode. There are a couple of ways to look 541 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: at prison and confinement, which is, are we trying to 542 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: rehabilitate these people and were trying to make society better 543 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: as a whole. Are we trying to just punish people 544 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: and as hard as possible and we really don't care 545 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: if society is better as a whole? Right, great synopsis, Chuck, 546 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: Which side Elion? Well, here's the big reveal. So um 547 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: clearly on the side of extended family visits. But I'm 548 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: it's not even like a like, oh, I I really 549 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: get your point, I get the other side's point, or 550 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: I can see both sides, not even like that, it 551 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: seems to me and Layton goes to great um links 552 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: to kind of try to be diplomatic about it, but 553 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: it's still just like, you know, this is this saysn't 554 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: whole water at all. Um. The arguments against are basically 555 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: just gut reactions. It's like the same thing is um 556 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: a lot of arson investigation. It's like, well, you know 557 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,239 Speaker 1: this feels a lot to me like arson put that 558 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: person in prison for life and maybe on death row. 559 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: Like that's the that's the same kind of correctional criminal 560 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: justice instinct that seems to be driving the cancelation of 561 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: these And I have a lot of problems with anything 562 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: that deeply impacts families negatively based on instinct rather than 563 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: data and science. I think you really need to go 564 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: to the trouble of producing your argument against in these 565 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: cases rather than just canceling them out right with very 566 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: little um problems from the public. Yeah, because there's there's 567 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: generally four arguments that are used against and to me, 568 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: each of them have a lot of holes in them. 569 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: Um cost, morality, security, and punishment cost. You know, they 570 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: they do charge people. Those costs are offsets some but 571 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: there's no like like you said, give me the data 572 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: when you interview some of these people and some of 573 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: these politicians ends that have said no, you know, this 574 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: is this costing us a fortune? And we're like, well, 575 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: all right, how much does it costing show us? And 576 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: they'll be like, well, we don't really have a spreadsheet 577 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: on that, but I'm sure it's a lot. Yeah, but 578 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: it literally say things like that like well, you know 579 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,919 Speaker 1: it hits the budget though. So there's there's one thing 580 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: you can poke holes in morality. I mean, I think 581 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: that one falls apart immediately, because, uh, what is more 582 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: moral than families being able to spend time with one 583 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: another and strengthening a family bond, or at least attempting to. 584 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: But that's what I'm saying. They use that public image 585 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: of what a conjugal visit is and the idea that 586 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, and it may any inmate can just have 587 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: sex with anybody they want during these visits, and then 588 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: they just don't explain what's actually being canceled. They just 589 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: call them conjugal visits and then that's that, right, because 590 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: STD transmission was one sided by um, who was it 591 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: Mississippi State Rep. Richard Bennett. Uh, and like you know, 592 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: where's the data or is our STDs being spread through 593 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: conjugal visits. They're not because there is no data, but 594 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: it's something very grabby on the news to hear. Um 595 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: security is another argument. But you know, show me that 596 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: you can you can manage security, like that's something you 597 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: can actually control, you know, whether it's um like maybe 598 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: not a camera in the bedroom, but you can have 599 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: cameras in the apartment. You can really watch them. You 600 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: can come in every two hours and inspect things. You know, 601 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: you can actually control security and make it a secure environment. Yeah, 602 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: and I also understand that the absence of evidence isn't proof, 603 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: but I would guess that if anybody had been harmed, hurt, killed, maimed, 604 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: abused during any of these one time, once in the 605 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: history of these things in the United States, we would 606 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: know all about it, and that would have been that 607 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: that would have canceled everything. Just like in Germany, it 608 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: hasn't come up. Like the fact that we didn't run 609 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 1: across it is is pretty significant to me. I'm surprised 610 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: they didn't lay it on Germany. I'm surprised the look 611 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: it happened here, look like it's all Merkel's fault. Um. 612 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: New Mexico was a state that that also had sort 613 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: of the same and the reasoning is generally the same 614 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 1: wherever you go, which was some kind of moral outrage. Uh. 615 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: In this case, there was um Michael Guzman who was 616 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: a prisoner in New Mexico that um, he was actually 617 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 1: a convicted murderer. So I'm really surprised that that he 618 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: was even allowed. I'm not sure how that happened. But 619 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: he conceived four children with different women, uh, different wives 620 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: in conjugal visits, so he was getting married to different 621 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: women in prison and having kids. And that was sort 622 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: of like the poster child in New Mexico for why 623 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: they shouldn't do stuff like that, right exactly, So that 624 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: one guy is basically the one thing that American extended 625 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,479 Speaker 1: family visitation can hang its hat on for anybody who's 626 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 1: looking to get rid of those things. But then the 627 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 1: the other part of the moral thing, and I said 628 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: it earlier, the idea that it's up to Department of 629 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: Corrections officials or state representatives to decide whether a family 630 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: of an incarcerated person, whether these parents want to have 631 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: another kid or not. It has nothing to do with them. 632 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: It's not up to these prison officials to decide that 633 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: kind of family planning, and it's smacks of eugenics and 634 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: racism to to think that they that that's it's something 635 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: they talk about publicly. It's something they cite that you know, 636 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: we don't want people having, you know, kids even though 637 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: they're married, because the mom's just going to be a 638 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: single parent or the dad's going to be a single parent, 639 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: and um, it's just not something we're interested in. That 640 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: That one really gets my gets my goat. Yeah, the 641 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: thing that gets my goat is just the lack of 642 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: data and this gut reaction thing. The Department of Corrections 643 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: in New Mexico said they didn't see an upside and 644 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: they told local media that after two years of research, 645 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: we found that it did not affect recidivism rates. And 646 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: they said, oh, well, can I see the details of 647 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: the study, and they said, well, it was not so 648 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: much a study. The toural quote was we looked at 649 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: um individual inmates. There was no study. Oh well, where's 650 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: the report on it then? And this is, well, we 651 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: don't have one, right. I basically just went through a 652 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: couple of files before I came out here. You're a 653 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: local paper. I'm blown away that you asked any follow 654 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: up questions whatsoever, I think is what you're saying. But 655 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: here's the thing is, one side of this argument is 656 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: not studied. There are no reports, there's very little research 657 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: and data. The other side has a lot of data, actually, 658 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: and we know that I think it was I'm trying 659 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: to find who did the study that found Yeah, study 660 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: and there was a sixty seven percent decrease in recidivism 661 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: with programs like this installed. Yeah, the human the Minnesota 662 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: Department of Corrections also did a study that basically back 663 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: that up too. And the thing is is, um, if 664 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: you talk to prison officials typically and like the ones 665 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: who actually work in the prisons and criminologists, like people 666 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: who actually have degrees in studying this kind of stuff, 667 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: they say, no, this is actually a really good program 668 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: and it does have an impact on recitativism. Because UM, 669 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: while we're still compiling data on extended family visits uh 670 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: as as it stands, we do know that the family 671 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: is in a really important factor in this transition to 672 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 1: UM from prison to society, and so anything that could 673 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: strengthen that bond is a plus. The other thing we 674 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: didn't really talk about was the cost. People point to 675 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: the cost and cost savings and stuff. UM. I think 676 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: New Mexico before they shut theirs down, it was a 677 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year for this program. 678 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: UM Washington State spends eighties six thousand dollars a year, 679 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: and both of those prison systems charged families to have 680 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: these visitations. So the idea that they don't work and 681 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: that they're expensive, and that there's a more a component 682 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: to them, there's basically no argument against. And then there's 683 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: data in favor of the argument for these things, and 684 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: yet they seem to be going the way of disco 685 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: in the United States sadly. Yeah, and not only UH. 686 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: I mean you can just talk about regular visits. There 687 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: was a study in two thousand eleven UM that found 688 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: the inmates who got just regular standard visits, these are 689 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,720 Speaker 1: not conjugal, these are not extended or overnight family visits, 690 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: just visiting people in person while in prison were less 691 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: likely to return to prison than inmate who received no visits. Yea. 692 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: So they also very surprisingly to UM. And controversially, there 693 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: was a study that found that prisons in stare correctional 694 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: um UH systems in states that never had any family 695 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 1: visitation programs had four times more inmate on inmate sexual 696 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: assault than than prisons that don't, which apparently really flies 697 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: in the face of common wisdom, common consensus on what 698 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: the purpose of sexual assault in prison is that everybody 699 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: thinks it's power based. They're like, actually, there might be 700 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: a sexual aspect to it as well that had been 701 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: overlooked to this point. Yeah, like sexual desires not being 702 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: met um. And you're right that that is contrary to 703 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: everything we've ever heard about sexual assault in prison, I think. Yeah, 704 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: And while it's kind of rich to point to anecdotal data, 705 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: after just disassembling anecdotal data, there is um a lot 706 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: of sentiment, including among Washington States Department of Corrections, they 707 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: have a brochure for their family visitation UM that basically 708 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: says an isolated inmate is a dangerous inmate UM. So 709 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: that one of the sentiments that kind of was carried 710 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: along for family visitation and visitation in general is this 711 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 1: idea that it keeps prisoners in line in the prison, 712 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: which improves security in the prison as well. Yeah, see 713 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: our episode on or was that in the prisons episode 714 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: which were one on solitary, we did one on solitude 715 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: we did and we did a prisons one too. Yeah. 716 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 1: I mean that's we've got a nice little robust and 717 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: we're popular in prisons too, so yeah, we help prisoners 718 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,240 Speaker 1: learn to read sometimes. Yeah, so they might be listening 719 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: to this right now. Yes, special shout out to all 720 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: the prisoners listening to this. Stay up. If someone is 721 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: listening to this with a family during their family visit, 722 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I would really like to hear about that. 723 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,439 Speaker 1: I think that's some T shirts right there. Yeah, yeah, 724 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: at the very least. So yeah, let us know and 725 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: we'll send you some T shirts because that's a that 726 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: is one heck of a specific listen. Uh. Well, like 727 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: you said, this is definitely going away though in a 728 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,800 Speaker 1: big way in the US down to seven states now, Um, 729 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: I mean prison visits. I don't know if they're really 730 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: trying to get rid of them. COVID has given them 731 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: a big opportunity to do that because more and more 732 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: prison visit um policies or programs have revolved around like 733 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: zoom meetings and virtual meetings and stuff like that, and 734 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: with COVID, that's a UM I could see it being 735 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,280 Speaker 1: used to be like do we really want to bring 736 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,240 Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of costs associated with just regular visits. 737 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: You know, we could just set up a computer room 738 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: and have them going there and have little zoom meetings 739 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,479 Speaker 1: with their family. Yeah, by which I mean is better 740 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: than nothing. But if these extended family visits are the 741 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: gold standard, and then standard visits are the whole hume 742 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: standard virtual visits, I mean yeah, I mean I've done 743 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: zoom hangouts before and they get old really fast, they do. 744 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what. Of course, my heart is 745 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: bleeding on this one. But like do those like every day? Yeah? 746 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: I wonder though if there's just as many restrictions around 747 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: those two, because I think you have to, you know, 748 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: demonstrate that you're in good standing in your prison too. Yeah. 749 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 1: So that's it that it's time you hear somebody trying 750 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: to cancel family extended family visitation in your state. Maybe 751 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,839 Speaker 1: don't just say yeah, serves him right, It's like, think 752 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: about it. Maybe vote against it if you want to. 753 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: With this episode, touched you like an angel? Touched by 754 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: an angel? You got anything else? Nothing? Uh? Well, since 755 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,280 Speaker 1: I said touched by an angel, of course as usual, 756 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: that means it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna 757 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: call this one short and sweet factoid from a movie crusher. 758 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure Aaron Mazel is a movie crusher. Uh, 759 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck, good morning. Just listen to the episode 760 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: on Francis Perkins. I'm guessing you guys have seen the 761 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: movie Dirty Dancing. Well, Aaron, if you listen to our 762 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: shorty on the disappearing like disappearing like you know we have. Well, 763 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 1: there's a part where Johnny asked Baby what her real 764 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,439 Speaker 1: name is. And I don't remember this in the movie, 765 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: but she said her response was Frances after the first 766 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: woman in the cabinet. So Baby in the movie Dirty 767 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,839 Speaker 1: Dancing was named after Francis Perkins, right, amazing. Nobody puts 768 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: Francis in the cabinet. Well somebody did. Oh wait, yeah, 769 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,360 Speaker 1: it didn't work. That's one of the best. That's seriously 770 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: are and that's one of the best facts I've ever 771 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: heard in my entire life. Best movie movie trivia ever. Yeah, 772 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: and very very much on the download. I think I 773 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: bet most people who are Dirty Dancing heads did not 774 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: catch that line. And know what I meant, you have 775 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: to know both of those things. He didn't. There's probably 776 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 1: a very small Now it might just be Aaron Mozzelle. Yeah, 777 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: that's to Aaron Moselle. Listen to mails in like a 778 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 1: week or two. She's got to get some sort of 779 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: trophy for that. Did I read another one from her? Yeah? 780 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,279 Speaker 1: She was the one who wrote in with the s 781 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: y five k oh really Yeah, that's she may not 782 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: be a movie crusher, then maybe I'm just remembering from 783 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: that she probably is. I mean there's a lot of crossover, 784 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,359 Speaker 1: right all right, Well, um, if you wanna let us 785 00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 1: know something so astounding that you get put on list sooner, 786 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 1: mail twice in like a week, we want to hear it. 787 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: We're really ready for those kind of emails, go ahead 788 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,800 Speaker 1: and send them off to Stuff podcast at i heart 789 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 790 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: of i Heeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts 791 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,280 Speaker 1: for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 792 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H