1 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: which we talked with some of the brightest minds working 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: in media today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety. If you 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: loved last year's Oscar winner for Best Picture, The Green Book, 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: there's a new podcast you'll want to check out. Driving 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: the Green Book digs even deeper into the history of 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: how African Americans traveled through this segregated South. It's a 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: production from book publisher McMillan, whose VP of Podcasting Cathy 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: Doyle is here to talk not just about this innovative subject, 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: but the state of podcasting in general. Welcome Cathy, Hey, Andrew, 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here. 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: I was so struck by the idea of turning an 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: Oscar Best Picture winner, uh into a podcast. I know 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: it's not as simple as that, but explain what this is. Sure? Yeah. Thanks. 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: Driving the Green Book of course as our forthcoming podcast 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: and ultimately we'll be a book. The first episode it's 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,319 Speaker 1: going to drop on September fourteen. It's a project we've 18 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: been working on for about a year now, and of course, 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: you know at that time couldn't have predicted that we'd 20 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: be launching with the backdrop of everything that's been happening 21 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: with race relations in our country. But we're still proud 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: of this work, and I think especially proud of how 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: we're being supported and bringing it to life in some 24 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: really unique ways for a podcast through a very deep 25 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: collaboration with Apple that I can talk a little bit 26 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: more about. But first a little bit about the show. 27 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: It's hosted by award winning BBC broadcaster and educator Alvin Hall. 28 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: Last year he took a mile road trip from Detroit 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 1: to New Orleans along the way, really recreating a green 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: Book inspired journey that will also be the basis of 31 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: book published by Our Flatiron. I think really listeners will 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: find the series offers things that are quite different from 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: the movie, actually really sharp insight and meaningful perspective and 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: really powerful testimony about this historic travel guide which, as 35 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned, was used by black and is to travel 36 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: safely during segregation. So how does that work though, because 37 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: in other words, here you are in recreating something, not recreating, 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: but revisiting something from so many decades ago. Do you 39 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: when you travel that path today you're still able to 40 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: tell stories? There are people around the route that can 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: bring this to life all over again. Absolutely there. This 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: was a very deeply personal journey for Alvin who grew 43 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: up in the South and lived through this era, and 44 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: we found a lot of people along the way. There 45 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: were experts, there were activists, there were politicians, community members 46 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: who really remembered what it was like to travel as 47 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: Black Americans during the height of segregation and could really 48 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: parallel that to the experiences that Black Americans continue to 49 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: some extent to still have in this country. In doing so, 50 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: relatives made themselves human shields. And what they also did 51 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: was set the stage. They set the stage for the 52 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: time when the children would be confronted by similar prejudice. 53 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: Parents knew that they would eventually have to have what's 54 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: come to be known among black people as the conversation um. 55 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 1: And then, in terms of how the actual podcast is 56 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: going to work, one of the very unique things we're 57 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: doing to really make this story come to life. Customers 58 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: will be able to really listen to Driving the Green 59 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: Book of course for free on Apple Podcasts, but then 60 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: at the same time, we're going to be building a 61 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: complimentary experience where they'll actually be able to explore and 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: see the locations that we've documented in the Green Book 63 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: with a dedicated guide in Apple Maps. So this is 64 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: a brand new feature to my knowledge, where the first 65 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: podcaster to really take advantage of it. We were part 66 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: of the w w d C introduction of this feature, 67 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: which will be part of iOS fourteen a bit later 68 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: this year. But we think it's a great way for 69 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: appless in particular to listen and then explore while learning 70 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: about the Green Book. So we're super excited. So you 71 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: could literally take a journey with this podcast and with 72 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: this app and and sort of follow where Alvin goes 73 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: and and sort of you with yourself see for yourself 74 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: the kinds of things that he's talking about in the podcast. Right, 75 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. Yeah, So it's it's it's interesting, and 76 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: we're we're gonna be collaborating with them on some other 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: complimentary experiences too, with books and music. UM, I can't 78 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: really share details of those experiences yet, but as we 79 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: get closer we can talk more about that. But you know, 80 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: just suffice it to say that this we believe is 81 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: a very unique um collaboration with Apple across its ecosystem 82 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: of services, and you know, we just think it's a 83 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: really creative way to elevate this important story about what 84 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: is really a vital American resource and the powerful legacy 85 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: that it represents to the black community. So how does 86 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: this Apple collaboration come to be? Do you you knock 87 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: on the front door Coopertino and say, I've got an 88 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: interesting idea for a podcast. You have a map app? 89 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: How does that work? I can't say enough about how 90 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: wonderful the opportunity was to to do this collaboration with them. 91 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: When we first started to talk to them about the podcast, 92 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: which was probably seven months ago. We originally we're talking 93 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: of course with the podcast team, and we have thought 94 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: there was opportunity for us to get books and music involved, 95 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: and they were the ones to bring to us, you know, 96 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: the collaboration with the maps team, who, unbeknownst to us 97 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: at the time, UM was hard at work on all 98 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: the incredible features they're going to be introducing with iOS fourteen. 99 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: They've got some really cool stuff in addition to the 100 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: map guides coming out UM you know, bicycle path tours, 101 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: a city guides, all kinds of really interesting stuff, and 102 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: we're part of that with our exclusive map guide for 103 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: the podcast. Sounds really interesting and It's just, you know, 104 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: it's rare that you think about a podcast in terms 105 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: of and you know, an adjunct experience outside of a podcast. 106 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: But I mean, do you do you get a sense 107 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: as you look at the broader podcast world that that's 108 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: that's kind of a trend. I absolutely think it's a trend. 109 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: I think, you know, competition has gotten so fierce in 110 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: the space, and I think technologies are emerging. UM, distributors, 111 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: publishers were all really trying to find what's going to 112 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: develop an immersive, interesting experience that is going to keep 113 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: the listener engaged and really provide in this case, an 114 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: educational opportunity to learn about an underreported time in our 115 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: country's history, and you know, in unique and creative ways 116 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: that haven't been done before. Hm. Well, you know, I'm 117 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: to some degree, I'm even sort of saying to myself, 118 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: McMillan is not necessarily a name I would associate with 119 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: the podcast business. I would think of you guys more 120 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: in terms of audio books. So I guess a little 121 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: background here is necessary. You know, McMillan is running not one, 122 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: but two podcast networks. How did this even come to be? 123 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: So it all started with a phone call literally thirteen 124 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: years ago when an editor at McMillan picked up the 125 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: phone had read a short piece in the Wall Street 126 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: Journal about Mignon Folgrady, who was newly emerging with this 127 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: brand new format called podcasting and was literally just creating 128 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: audio tips for her many editing clients. She was a 129 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: ulance editor supporting clients out in Silicon Valley back in 130 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, two thousand seven, and John Stirland 131 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: picked up the phone and called her, and I think 132 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: really quickly they recognized that this could be much more 133 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: than just a book conversation. UM. McMillan of course has 134 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: always had an appetite for innovative digital products and saw 135 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: the opportunity to help build out this platform on this 136 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: newly emerging thing called podcasting. So we really developed and 137 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: pioneered the short format podcast back at that time, bringing on, 138 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, top of their field, highly credential subject matter 139 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: experts in a variety of subject matter areas like psychology, grammar, nutrition, UM, 140 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: and became a network really before it was even a thing. 141 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: That's great. I mean, I know you can't break out 142 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: revenues for me, but how material to a company like 143 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: McMillan is say podcast at revenues relative to say, book sales. Yeah. No, 144 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: I can give you a couple of data points that 145 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: I think you'll find kind of interesting. At one point 146 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: of the Quick and Dirty Tips hosts and that's upwards 147 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: of twelve shows and any given point in time that 148 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: are weekly had book deals with us. And then you know, 149 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: the shows have really strong self through rates, so they 150 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: are monetized via advertising. And last year alone, we surfaced 151 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: about eighty authors from our various really powerful imprints around 152 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: the world on the platform in some way, shape or form. 153 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: It's really given us the opportunity to expose McMillan authors 154 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: to podcast listeners around the world in and the sky's 155 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: the limit. It's our network, so we can we can 156 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: surface them in a variety of I think really interesting ways. 157 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: You know, we can drop an audio excerpt from a book. Um, 158 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: we've done some really interesting takeovers where the regular host 159 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: has taken a break and we have given control to 160 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: an author who does a short run series pulling content 161 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: from a book that's about to release. Obviously, we you know, 162 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: we have our own booking system. We can book these 163 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: authors and guests on the shows. So there's just some 164 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: really interesting ways that we leverage the platform on behalf 165 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: of the greater good of the organization. Got it? I mean, 166 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: is it possible, you know that even a company like 167 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: McMillan that obviously has been long known for books could 168 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: could one day be understood in sort of a more 169 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: broader multimedia sense or it's like not. At the end 170 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: of the day, it's a book business. I think at 171 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: its core it will always be a book business. But 172 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: I just I love the support that we get from 173 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: senior leadership in terms of, you know, using the platform 174 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: both to promote our authors but also really to develop. 175 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, right, it's about developing useful, 176 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: valuable content for consumers and this is yet another way 177 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: to do that. In terms of how integrated the formats 178 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: over time become, we're certainly seeing audiobooks take on some 179 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: elements of podcasts. Um Malcolm Gladwell did it with his 180 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: book Our McMillan Audio published Alicia Keys Book a little 181 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: bit earlier this year, and that had some elements of 182 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: a podcast. So I think format wise, we're starting to 183 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: see a lot of synergy and a lot of coming together. 184 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: But I think at its core McMillan will still continue 185 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: to be first and foremost a book publisher. Okay, And 186 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: speaking of which, getting back to Driving the Green Book, 187 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: you mentioned that it will become a book after this 188 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: podcast comes out, So you know where where, which is 189 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: the cart, which is the horse? How is the book 190 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: different than the podcast? I want to understand. I'm so 191 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: glad you asked that, because it does work both ways. 192 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: We did a biography podcast last year called Knowing, and 193 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: it featured Dave Ittskoff, who's a culture writer at the 194 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: New York Times, talking about his book, which is a 195 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: biography of Robin Williams. The book had been out for 196 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: about eighteen months when we launched the series, and we 197 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: absolutely saw a lift in backlist sales for that title. 198 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: So that was a case where the book came before 199 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: the podcast. In this case, you know, we sent Alvin 200 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: on this trip. He came back with stories. When we 201 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:57,239 Speaker 1: all sat around together and listened to them, Um, they 202 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: wrecked us, they inspired us. They were so powerful and 203 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: so strong that it was actually a Lissa Martino, who 204 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: was our editor at the time, who went to Flat 205 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: Iron and brought Alvin to them and pitched the book. 206 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: And that's how that happened. It really was a podcast 207 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: first initiative. And you know, in terms of the future 208 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: of books and book deals, you know, do podcasts become uh, 209 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: do you think more often a companion of book deals 210 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: or and how does this even play into audio books. 211 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: I feel like all of these sort of different formats 212 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: maybe bleeding into each other to some degree. I think 213 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: that's absolutely right in a very good observation. I think 214 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: what I try to do is just think about the 215 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: listener and think about the experience, and then let the 216 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: format dictate, you know. I mean, you could do a 217 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: podcast on anything, but at the end of the day, 218 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: it has to be a great podcast that tells a 219 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: story and communicates in a way that is immersive and engaging. 220 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: And sometimes that format might be better suited or that 221 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 1: that content might be better suited to a book or 222 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: a longer form audiobook. M Well, I I guess I'm 223 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: going to keep my eye out for similar projects. Let's 224 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: talk broader, though, about podcasting in general. Because you've been 225 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: in this business in a while, You've you've seen a lot. 226 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: Uh is an interesting year because going into this year, 227 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: I think podcasts were like the growth story in media 228 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: along comes a global pandemic, there's certainly been some impact. 229 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: How do you see kind of what has been sort 230 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: of the state of podcast There's never a dull moment 231 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: in podcasting, that is for sure. There's been so many 232 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: even with COVID, there have been so many major deals 233 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: you know, as you and I have talked about before, 234 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: that have been struck throughout It's been really interesting to watch. 235 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: UM in terms of COVID. Initially, we definitely did see 236 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: like most publishers about dropping downloads, but we're back up 237 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: to where we were before, which was a little over 238 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: three million downloads a month. UM. On the ad side, 239 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: we saw a bit of a dip, but we're again 240 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: our self through rates are are strong again. Some we've 241 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: seen some new advertisers entering the space and a pivot 242 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: for others who are sort of long standing sponsors in 243 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: the space who've taken a break. UM. But you know, 244 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: it's it's it feels very strong and like a solid 245 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: business that I think is going to continue to emerge 246 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: and grow as as industry people like Tom Webster continue 247 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: to predict will we make that billion dollars by We'll 248 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: have to see. You're talking about the ad revenue projection, 249 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 1: not not McMillan alone, although that would be very impressive 250 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: in terms of Unlet's say Covid had never happened. Do 251 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: you think that would have been this huge growth spurt 252 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: for the podcast business that now we're just sort of 253 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: lucky that it's you know, things are sort of back 254 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: to where they are and we've kind of been robbed 255 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: of that moment, or that moment is still to come. 256 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting question. I think we 257 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: are fortunate to have been able to to pulled through 258 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: so far Covid in ways that a lot of other 259 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: businesses have not been able to sustain a level of 260 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: success that we have all maintained or most of us 261 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: have maintained and continued some level of growth and continued 262 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: some level of you know, interesting distribution and content deals 263 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: and partnerships that were continuing to see on a regular basis. 264 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: So I think we're quite fortunate. And you mentioned, you know, 265 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: some pretty big deals that have been playing out in 266 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: recent months, Uh, everything from you know, Serious coming along 267 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: and scooping up Stitcher, Uh, Spotify obviously making some some 268 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: big talent deals to to bring in some name brands. Uh. 269 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: How does this all elevate the space. Is it a 270 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: rising tide lifting all boats? How do you see it? 271 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: I like to believe that that it's a rising tide 272 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: lifting all boats. I think anything any of the distributors 273 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: can do to bring in more listeners to the space 274 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: is a really good thing. You know. One interesting thing 275 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: I actually read today on a blog was about sports, 276 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: and that is, to some extent I think, considered somewhat 277 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: of an underserved market still at this point, and it 278 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: was an analysis of the fact that gen z Um 279 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: tends to follow individual athletes as opposed to teams. So 280 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: of course that's opened up opportunities that I don't think 281 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: we've seen significantly emerging in past years for athletes to 282 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: not just start big name podcasts, but also start to 283 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: build their own networks. So opportunities that I think maybe 284 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: a few years ago we might not have recognized would 285 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: be important and influential in the space seemed to be emerging. Yeah. 286 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: When you mentioned that, I think to mind the NBA 287 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: star JJ Reddick, who had a deal and I think 288 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: at a number of deals over the years, most recently 289 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: with The Ringer and then recently announced he's doing his 290 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: own network. I mean, is that going to be like 291 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: sort of the new vanity play for talent building your 292 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: own network. It certainly seems that way. Yeah. Um, but 293 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, uh, look, the point of a network is 294 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: is it? It's you can sort of elevate the collective 295 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: whole of those in that network, build the audience. Because 296 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: the fallacy of podcasts is, oh, there's such a low 297 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: barrier to entry. Everyone comes in gets a podcast, but 298 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: so few can monetize in a significant way. So do 299 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: we add a place now? It's like, you better be 300 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: on a network or this thing might as well not 301 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: well exist. Um. I think networks bring with them a 302 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: whole host of value for creators. And I agree with you. 303 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: It has become incredibly challenging to really develop an audience 304 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: on one's own without you know, some sort of backing. 305 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: But it can be done, and of course it has 306 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: been done. Um. You know, I just I really believe 307 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: in the power of a network, just because it has 308 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: been so successful for us. We spend a lot of 309 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: time every week thinking about really creative ways we can 310 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: leverage our network. Um, for again the greater good of 311 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: McMillan and its authors and our hosts, and do just 312 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: some really interesting things synergistically. Two, raise the profile of podcasters, 313 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: not even just our own podcasters, all podcasters that we 314 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: can find ways to to to give a platform to. 315 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if that answers your question. I hope 316 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: it does. It does. I mean, it's just it's an 317 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: interesting time. It's it's it's hard to see, you know, 318 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: where it's all going. Another trend that's always struck me 319 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: that I have my doubts about is the notion of 320 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: podcasts as a subscription product. Is that something you guys 321 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: are looking into at McMillan and just what do you 322 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: think of it in general? So I think for creators 323 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: there's certainly a place for it. Not everyone is fortunate 324 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: enough to have a publisher of funding their efforts. UM. 325 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: I think back to one of our science fiction tour authors, 326 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: Lauren Shipping, and I remember when she signed for a 327 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: deal with Luminary. She took a pretty good stance on 328 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: it that was pretty well received by the industry, which 329 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: was that, hey, I'm going to use this revenue to 330 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: fund other projects. UM And I think that's that's an 331 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: interesting way to look at it. We have dabbled a 332 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: bit in some premium subscription offerings. In particular are True 333 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: Crime Case Closed, which is currently on Stitcher Premium in 334 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: its third season, and we'll be on the Free Public 335 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: Feed in October. We've had some pretty great success when 336 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: it comes to premium. I think it's it's like I said, 337 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: it's it works for some creators, and I think it's 338 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: important for the creator to find a premium subscription model 339 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: and opportunity where their content is best served. You know, 340 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: so if it's comedy, Stitcher Premium is a great fit. Um, 341 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, One Tree has a premium app. There's there's 342 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity out there for creators if they 343 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: can find the right deal with the right content and 344 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: the right audience. Got it. True Crime, of course, is 345 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: a genre that I think has really since the beginning 346 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: of the main streaming of podcasts, has has been successful. 347 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: I'm curious though, whether McMillan's in them or not. What 348 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: other genres out there do you think people need to understand? 349 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: Our are big? Well. I love audio drama. I think 350 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to pull off. Production costs are really expensive. 351 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: You get into issues with you know, sag and having 352 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: a cast. But I think when done well, it can 353 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: be a really effective means of leveraging the medium. Certainly, 354 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot more you know, news, especially as 355 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: we near and really in election season. Of course, a 356 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: lot there's a lot more news and politics shows emerging. 357 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: UM travels a little bit underserved. Off the top of 358 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: my head, that's the one thinking. Well, that's where driving 359 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: the green book comes in. And uh, you know, I 360 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: think from the perspective of here in Hollywood, it's been 361 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: interesting and certainly not a new trend. How I p 362 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: built in podcasts convert over to movies, TV shows, plenty 363 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: of examples of that. Is that sort of what it 364 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: needs to be, whether it's for McMillan or otherwise, or 365 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: does a podcast have to sort of stand on its 366 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: own make its add revenue or subscription revenue. UM, where 367 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: do you stand on that? I get asked this question 368 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: a lot, and my standard answer to that is that's 369 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: not why we are We in particular McMillan, are in 370 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: this business. We are in this business to serve readers 371 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: and listeners around the world with just great content in 372 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: the podcasting format. UM. Typically too, I will say as 373 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: a book publisher, we tend not to exploit or even 374 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: have those rights, but I know there are a lot 375 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: of shops that are that that is their primary role 376 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: to develop content that will then be exploited via I 377 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: P rights to movie and film deals. And that's great. 378 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 1: It's just not something that we have traditionally been involved with. 379 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: Does that I mean, I know, I understand when you 380 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: say you're not into this business to do that, But 381 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: does that mean that you're not looking for these kinds 382 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: of things, because I would imagine a book publisher is 383 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: in good position to do just that. Yeah, and we 384 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: do definitely have someone on the McMillan team who can 385 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: who can advance those deals when it's appropriate, but not 386 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: exactly the point of it. I take it, that's exactly right. Yes, Okay. 387 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: Elsewhere in podcasts, I mean, as you you know, discovery 388 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: is a subject that fascinates me because it seems to 389 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: me that you know, once a month I will come 390 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: upon a podcast and be like, how did I not 391 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: already know about this? Uh? This is something that is, 392 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: you know, in my area of interest and I didn't 393 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: know it's there. So I would imagine that's either a 394 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: subject that interest you frustrate to because you're in the 395 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: business of getting people to check out what you're producing. Well, 396 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: I think, you know, you're getting to the heart of 397 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: sort of audience development is what we call it, and 398 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: it's become harder and harder. You know, eight nine years ago, 399 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: all you had to do was reach out to someone 400 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: who had a like minded podcast and you had sort 401 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 1: of a built in co marketing arrangement without hardly you know, 402 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: asking any questions. But now competition has gotten a lot 403 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: more fierce, and I think audience development is an art 404 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: and a strategy and has to be really well thought 405 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: through for every show that we develop. Um and it's 406 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: it's become you know, it's discovery is definitely still one 407 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: of the remaining challenges. Search tools are getting better with 408 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: within the platforms, UM, but I think we still have 409 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: a ways to go in terms of surfacing relevant content. UM. Oh, 410 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, the distributor the platforms are getting much better 411 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: at it too. There's been some really interesting developments there 412 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: with you know, playlists and you know, deeper and better categories. 413 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: UM and I think we're starting to see distributors do 414 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: for podcasts what traditionally they have done for music, which 415 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: is to try and help surface you know, like minded content. 416 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: For listeners, which I think is a great thing. So, 417 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: but we've still got a way to get a ways 418 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: to go and of course another way you could drive 419 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: discoveries with your own marketing. Is that something? How does 420 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: marketing work for McMillan podcasts? Is it just sort of 421 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, uh quid pro quos without other podcast Do 422 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: you have to get offline to reach people as well? 423 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: How do you? How do you? How do you approach that? 424 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: So every show we launch has a fold loan, marketing 425 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: and release plant. We very carefully think through what kinds 426 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: of swap opportunities we might get with partners and with 427 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: other pot podcast publishers. We typically will reach out. You know, 428 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: we do a full bloan media campaign. We do a 429 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: lot of paid so, you know, just like anything else. 430 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: And then you know, it's not even just about launching 431 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,239 Speaker 1: a show. Our team looks at every individual episode as 432 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: its own little launch, right, So we take time to 433 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: sort of strategize what's covered in this episode, who would 434 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: be interested in covering it, potentially, what kinds of listeners 435 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: outside our normal audience might be interested in this content, 436 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: and just really think creatively at a time when audience 437 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: development has become really challenging. Mhm uh. And in terms 438 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: of the swaps, I wonder is that sort of a 439 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: function of podcasting being in its earliest days and a 440 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: podcasting as an industry mature to a place where the 441 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: notion of these swaps could go away as things get 442 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: more competitive. Do you worry about that? Um Our team 443 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: is very judicious about them. We don't ask unless we 444 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: think it's a perfect fit. We don't accept unless we 445 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: think it's a perfect fit. You know, people who listen 446 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: to a lot of podcasts do ten We do hear 447 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: from We do get feedback from listeners, and I get 448 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: feedback in my own family, well, people who will say 449 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: to me, you know, that's not why I signed up 450 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: for that podcast. Why are they pushing that content to me? 451 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: So I think it's again something that just has to 452 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: be really strategically thought through, and it's not something you know, 453 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: we'd never take our audience for granted. We would never 454 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: abuse the privilege of their ears and their listening time. 455 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: So I think it's it's you're right, it's something that 456 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: is somewhat of a carryover from the long standing relationships 457 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,239 Speaker 1: we have with a lot of other networks. It's not 458 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: like any podcaster can just reach out to another podcaster 459 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: today and say, hey, I'll drop an episode of yours 460 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: on mine, if you know, vice versa. It doesn't work 461 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: that way anymore, but we do still stri egically do 462 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: them from time to time when we think it warrants 463 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: and we think it's something that really benefits the listener. 464 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: We also position it appropriately by having the host say, hey, 465 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: this is something you can skip over if you're not interested, 466 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: but I loved it and I thought you would love 467 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: it too well. Another way that I'm sure you have 468 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: to get very strategic is advertising and what you allow 469 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: UH in your podcasts. You know, as a listener these days, 470 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: I feel like there is an increasing you know, too 471 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: much problem. But then I think there's also this question 472 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: of you can't just allow any advertiser into every podcast, 473 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: especially everything for something like McMillan, where like authors have 474 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: to cultivate UH for their subject matter a certain sensibility, 475 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: and you you can't just throw any add into any 476 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: kind of podcast. That is such a good point on 477 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: We're really proud of the way we handle at operations. 478 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: There's a woman on our team, Michelle Margolis, who knows 479 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: more about ad operations than I think just about anybody 480 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: in this business. And I like to think that we 481 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: really go for sort of the hat trick effect when 482 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: it comes to sponsorships. We first inform us protect our hosts, UM, 483 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: and by that I mean we do turn away quite 484 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: a few sponsors. You know, we had a psychic network 485 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: that wanted to advertise on our Savvy Psychologists show and 486 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: that just wasn't a good fit for so many reasons. UM. 487 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: We also wanted to light our listeners. That's really important 488 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: to us. So we work and strive to work with Midrole, 489 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: who represents our shows, UM, to develop talking points that 490 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: really are in sync with the tone and the approach 491 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: of the hosts so they feel genuine and effective and work. 492 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: And then third of course, we want to drive a 493 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: great result for the sponsors, because the only way we'll 494 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: know if a dr direct response campaign is working is 495 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: if that sponsor comes back for a second line, a 496 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: third line, UM, and then you know, provides brand lift 497 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: to the brand sponsors. So it's it's it is not easy, 498 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: it takes a lot of hard work, UM, but it's 499 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,239 Speaker 1: something that you know, we take very seriously to your 500 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: point and absolutely are mindful of the kinds of sponsors 501 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: we're taking on um and try to do a great 502 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,239 Speaker 1: job on all three fronts. Well, um, that's about all 503 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: the questions I have. Appreciate you walking me through all 504 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: things McMillan podcast. Looking forward to seeing the reception for 505 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: Driving the Green Book, which starts on September. Thanks for 506 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: your time, Kathy, Thank you so much. It was a 507 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: great check. This has been another episode of Strictly Business. 508 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: Tune in next week for another helping of scintillating conversation 509 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: with media movers and shakers, and please make sure you 510 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: subscribe to the podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave 511 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: a review in Apple Podcast and let us know how 512 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: we're doing.