Speaker 1: Halfy October Popcorn Book Club listeners. We've covered horror and
Speaker 1: monsters and cults of scary white people a few weeks
Speaker 1: ago with our discussion of love Craft Country, and now
Speaker 1: we're covering the other side of the spooky season with
Speaker 1: the gothic thriller Rebecca by Daphne Demurier Moyer. Oh God,
Speaker 1: my French. Soon to be a film on Netflix. Not
Speaker 1: goth in the sense of dressing and all black and
Speaker 1: listening to Bauhaus, but gothic like gothic romance and death,
Speaker 1: you know. Fun. She does not care at all that
Speaker 1: her husband committed cold murder. She's like, but he hated her.
Speaker 1: He killed her because he hated her. Who I was.
Speaker 1: I was hooked in that moment because I'm like, Oh,
Speaker 1: she's going to take us on a ride, because she's
Speaker 1: going to try to explain away or try to reason
Speaker 1: all these very very real red flags. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: Popcorn Book Club. I am Danis Schwartz, joined as always
Speaker 1: by Karamadanqua, Jennifer Wright and Melissa Hunter and Tian tram
Speaker 1: Hi everyone. I am so so excited that we're talking
Speaker 1: about the book Rebecca. I had never read it and
Speaker 1: I feel like once maybe in my childhood, I had
Speaker 1: started the prologue and I got like two pages in
Speaker 1: and I was like, man and put it down. And
Speaker 1: once you sort of get over the hump of like
Speaker 1: the first like pages, this book really takes off. Tim.
Speaker 1: What was your experience. I I absolutely loved it, kind
Speaker 1: of the same though I was like at first, I
Speaker 1: was thinking to myself, I can't wait for this book
Speaker 1: to pick up. Everyone's been talking about it. And then
Speaker 1: when it picks up, Oh baby, it picks up, and
Speaker 1: I thoroughly enjoyed it. All the characters are really fleshed
Speaker 1: out and funny, funny, and the narrator is I don't
Speaker 1: know about you all, but it's hilarious to me, so
Speaker 1: so funny to me. Um. So I'm like super excited
Speaker 1: to watch all the adaptations too, because I like, really
Speaker 1: hope that they stay true to some of the quirks
Speaker 1: and are like personality traits of everyone. Because I really
Speaker 1: really loved it. Uh, Jennifer, you had read this book
Speaker 1: before and you were you were vouching for it for us.
Speaker 1: What is your experience with Rebecca? It was really interesting
Speaker 1: because I read this when I was a teenager, and
Speaker 1: it was around the same time I was reading books
Speaker 1: like Janier and was wearing plights, and this really fits
Speaker 1: into that Gothic romance category. And I feel like I
Speaker 1: had a very different experience with it now as an
Speaker 1: adult then um, when I felt when I was a teenager,
Speaker 1: I definitely had a lot more simply for Rebecca. Now
Speaker 1: as an adult, I still think the second Mrs de Winter,
Speaker 1: who has no name, is incredibly funny and likable. Um,
Speaker 1: I think I had a different perspective on her loyalty
Speaker 1: to Maxim than I do when I was a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old girl. So we can get into that as
Speaker 1: discuss it, I will say she is a ride or die. Yeah, Karama,
Speaker 1: you as you made before we start recording, you mentioned
Speaker 1: that you did not finish this book. Not you care
Speaker 1: to elaborate. Well, first of all, I would just like
Speaker 1: to start by saying I know that I'm going to
Speaker 1: start getting a reputation as the person that doesn't finish
Speaker 1: the book, but I actually so. I was very worry
Speaker 1: about reading it. I was like, this feels boring. I
Speaker 1: don't want to read this, and then everybody was like
Speaker 1: it picks up in and I was like Okay, I
Speaker 1: will read it. And I got more than that far
Speaker 1: and I just felt like it never picked up for me,
Speaker 1: and like, I got almost two hundred pages in before
Speaker 1: I was like, how much time am I going to
Speaker 1: invest in something that is genuinely difficult for me to enjoy?
Speaker 1: And I kind of wanted to have a discussion at
Speaker 1: least at some point during this conversation about when it's
Speaker 1: okay to sort of abandon a book, because I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I really really put in the effort, and I've gotten
Speaker 1: to the point where people are like, this is where
Speaker 1: it really starts. And I do think that there are
Speaker 1: good things about it. I don't think that it is
Speaker 1: an irredeemable book, and I just I also have my
Speaker 1: own biases. I don't like romantic Gothic literature. I don't
Speaker 1: I didn't like Wuthering Heights, I never read gene Air.
Speaker 1: I was just like, no, this style is not for me.
Speaker 1: And so I found that revulsion and like sort of
Speaker 1: pushing against it again. Reading this book, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh God, I really don't enjoy anything about this. But
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to watch it as a film because
Speaker 1: I think that the core plot elements really will lend
Speaker 1: themselves to an exciting, thrilling viewing experience. I will say
Speaker 1: I want to go on record as saying I think
Speaker 1: if you're not enjoying a book, you can always abandon it.
Speaker 1: They're like, if you give a book a fair chance,
Speaker 1: life is too short. There's no there's so many good
Speaker 1: books in the world. It's I feel like it's kind
Speaker 1: of like watching the first three episodes of a TV
Speaker 1: show and if it doesn't really like everyone has a
Speaker 1: limit of like how far you commit to a TV show?
Speaker 1: Why not for a book to you know? So, Melissa,
Speaker 1: what was your response to Rebecca? Oh? God, I loved it.
Speaker 1: I mean I had I did have the same experience
Speaker 1: in the beginning where I felt it was very slow.
Speaker 1: I was reading like I couldn't read it at night
Speaker 1: because I kept on falling asleep within a page. Um
Speaker 1: And it reminded me of high school where I was like,
Speaker 1: I have to read this book. But then. But but
Speaker 1: I do think on the flip side of have being
Speaker 1: so happy we are doing this podcast is like normal
Speaker 1: Melissa would just have given up at that point. But
Speaker 1: because we are doing this podcast, and I my main
Speaker 1: motivation is not being publicly shamed. Um, I I'm a
Speaker 1: very I'm very good student in that way, like I
Speaker 1: love deadlines to other people. I pushed through and I
Speaker 1: think it was around like like right after she went
Speaker 1: to Manderley when I was just like when Mrs Danvers
Speaker 1: came in and everything that I was just like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's something going on and I don't quite know what
Speaker 1: it is. And then just like the building tension was
Speaker 1: so much for me, and I just loved the hero
Speaker 1: so much and was so like in on this ride
Speaker 1: with her that I loved it. And so no, no, no, no, no, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: sorry the narrator, No, that would have been interesting. No
Speaker 1: judgment has been fun. We just would have talked about it. Jen.
Speaker 1: The listeners can't see your face, but I can't. There
Speaker 1: was judgment there. Yeah. I love him every you know.
Speaker 1: He just reminds me of my fiance. I want. I
Speaker 1: want a boy who will bring me to his house
Speaker 1: and then never talk to me like a dog. Yeah, baby,
Speaker 1: like three things on a platter, foods. I'm just like,
Speaker 1: I had a lot of problem with the food waste. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so much food. She never and she was too insecured
Speaker 1: at I also very much related she there's so much
Speaker 1: going around. Yeah, I feel like I think, Danny, you're
Speaker 1: saying too. Like I just related so hard to her,
Speaker 1: like I was hurt eighteen of like just having these
Speaker 1: imagined conversations of what people are saying, with the horrible
Speaker 1: things people are saying about me and like these I
Speaker 1: just called it, like Rebecca the room Nation cycle because
Speaker 1: it just felt like she was just this constant, circular,
Speaker 1: like reaffirming of these beliefs that she was so distracted
Speaker 1: by that she didn't notice that her she finally realized,
Speaker 1: like her sticking point is he never loved her. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, he never loved her. Yeah, it's like the best,
Speaker 1: the best news ever that he killed her. It's that's
Speaker 1: the writer is so funny. She does not care at
Speaker 1: all that her husband committed She's like, but he hated her.
Speaker 1: He killed her because he hated her. It was very
Speaker 1: obvious to me that he killed her, Like I clocked
Speaker 1: that very early on, and I'm like, wait, okay, so
Speaker 1: you don't realize that this dude straight marked his ex wife,
Speaker 1: Like you don't know that lady, Like I before they left,
Speaker 1: what was the kipping point for you? Because I absolutely
Speaker 1: did not know that. I remember that time I read it.
Speaker 1: It came as a real shocked No I knew, and
Speaker 1: I never read this book. I didn't know anything about
Speaker 1: the movie. I didn't know it existed until Jenn suggested
Speaker 1: we read it. So I was reading it and I
Speaker 1: was I remember I was like, on page seventy five
Speaker 1: or something, I was like, Oh, this motherfucker killed his wife.
Speaker 1: I don't remember the exact moment. I think it was, um.
Speaker 1: I think it was when Beatrice first came about. I
Speaker 1: feel like she kind of knew. She didn't know for sure,
Speaker 1: but she was like, oh, well, I hope you guys
Speaker 1: are happy, and I was like, oh, okay, with everything
Speaker 1: else that's been leading up to this, and the way
Speaker 1: that it was talking about Robecca and the way he's like,
Speaker 1: I wish you wish you could bottle your memories and
Speaker 1: I wish that I never had to think of them again.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, she murdered her. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: tutor twice every year, he uncontrollably exactly, So I he
Speaker 1: was about the Beatrice visit where I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: he killed her. And I think for me also realizing
Speaker 1: that early on it didn't make the book interesting to
Speaker 1: read because I'm think it's taking so long to get
Speaker 1: to the murder. I will say what I found very
Speaker 1: relatable is that as someone who uh does not know
Speaker 1: how to ask for things or or advocate for myself,
Speaker 1: it was very relatable. As we were mentioning with like
Speaker 1: the food waste the second Mrs de Winter clocks like
Speaker 1: there is a ton of food waste in this house,
Speaker 1: and it takes the full arc of the book for
Speaker 1: her to be able to be like, fucking reuse the
Speaker 1: same food, you assholes. But me, I'm like, I do
Speaker 1: not ask for anything, like I have like a manager,
Speaker 1: and I'm always like, can I ask her to I
Speaker 1: don't want to send this thing to her. I don't
Speaker 1: want to bother her. And my friends had to be like,
Speaker 1: she works for you. I loved when she hid the
Speaker 1: cupid that she broke in the and and she had
Speaker 1: to like be like I did it, and I was afraid,
Speaker 1: Like that just felt so like just being a person
Speaker 1: who doesn't feel like they belong in the place that
Speaker 1: they literally are calling home, it feels so And I'm like, Grama,
Speaker 1: I definitely thought from the beginning that he killed his wife,
Speaker 1: like when they first like the Mysterious Widow. And also
Speaker 1: it's a Hitchcock movie, so it's like, okay, there's murder involved. However,
Speaker 1: I felt like the way it was written, you just
Speaker 1: get so sucked into her point of view that like
Speaker 1: end this vision of Rebecca and the jealousy of Rebecca
Speaker 1: and everyone loving Rebecca. That like, to me, it like
Speaker 1: pulled me into a different narrative of hers that by
Speaker 1: the time he actually said it, it wasn't shocking to
Speaker 1: me that he killed her. It was shocking to me
Speaker 1: that he did not love her, because that felt like
Speaker 1: to me, what I thought was, oh, there was like
Speaker 1: they loved each other, but they had these big fights,
Speaker 1: you know, accident And the first twist, Yeah, the first
Speaker 1: twist to me was how when Mrs dan Verse describes
Speaker 1: how Rebecca loved no one and I was like, whoa, okay,
Speaker 1: so she's like an interesting cold bitch, Like that's fun
Speaker 1: and and that was a throw to me. And then
Speaker 1: and then that yeah, that it was like how could
Speaker 1: he do this to to Mr de Winter Like, yes,
Speaker 1: maybe he killed her, but he also like loved her
Speaker 1: and regretted it. I'm not saying that makes him a
Speaker 1: good person, but that that's the narrative that I had.
Speaker 1: And I think that I also kind of clocked early
Speaker 1: that he probably murdered her. It was and I think
Speaker 1: it was when they were on that drive and he
Speaker 1: like stopped on that like cliff and was fucking weird,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh he he did something like
Speaker 1: just knowing, yeah, yes, something was wrong, something's wrong? Did
Speaker 1: he push a bit off the cliff? Like what's going
Speaker 1: on here? Only because we've all talked about it in like,
Speaker 1: you know, I've I've seen the trailer for the Netflix adaptation,
Speaker 1: and like we know that it's a thriller. We know
Speaker 1: that like something mysterious, like spooky, and there's some sort
Speaker 1: of like we know this woman is dead. So at
Speaker 1: that time, when she's in the car to the cliff
Speaker 1: and she even like I love the way she talks
Speaker 1: about it, she's like so forgiving when he's acting like
Speaker 1: a fucking weirdo. That like I was, I was hooked
Speaker 1: in that moment because I'm like, Oh, she's going to
Speaker 1: take us on a ride, because she's going to try
Speaker 1: to explain away or try to reason all these sort
Speaker 1: of like very very real red flags that any of
Speaker 1: us would hope I would hope that like we would
Speaker 1: be like, oh, that's not a good sign. I will
Speaker 1: also say she was very blind, like I think I
Speaker 1: was with you, Melissa, where I fully would have believed like,
Speaker 1: oh it was if something was weird with the accident,
Speaker 1: but like, oh it was a tragic accident of a
Speaker 1: flight of passion gone gone wrong, of like whatever. But
Speaker 1: I think like the book also establishes really well his
Speaker 1: position and um wealth and age and status, and like
Speaker 1: she has nothing, Like her choices are literally marry him
Speaker 1: or travel as a basically a servant with this insufferable
Speaker 1: American woman. So it's like he is like the prince
Speaker 1: charming narrative, like that was her only choice. She began
Speaker 1: the book being trained to be a companion. I would
Speaker 1: not she ends the book as a companion to an
Speaker 1: older man who is not took down that. The plot
Speaker 1: of this is what if there are the pitches? What
Speaker 1: if there is a sequel to Cinderella where the marriage
Speaker 1: absolutely sucked, because because it does feel like the whisked
Speaker 1: away happily ever after, like she was in poverty and
Speaker 1: this rich, handsome man comes and takes her to this
Speaker 1: date and then it turns out she feels awful all
Speaker 1: the time, and then the husband is a murderer. I thought,
Speaker 1: enough of that murder daddy. Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1: So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I find it so interesting that you all really related
Speaker 1: to the narrator, because I did not at all. And
Speaker 1: I found her deeply annoying a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: And I sorry, Dana, I was like, how are we friends?
Speaker 1: Sometimes I also find you deeply annoying, but I love
Speaker 1: you anyway. I keep reading the book that is you. Um,
Speaker 1: You're welcome, But for me, it was like, why aren't
Speaker 1: you saying things? Why aren't you asking for things? Be
Speaker 1: more assertive? What's your fucking problem? I understand that it
Speaker 1: is the early twentieth century, However, you have way more
Speaker 1: agency than you are allowing yourself. I mean, even at
Speaker 1: the beginning. And I'm also that person at a restaurant
Speaker 1: that will one hundred percent send something act and I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be a bit about it, but if
Speaker 1: it's not what I ordered, I'm going to tell somebody, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I don't eat nuts. I'm not allergic.
Speaker 1: I just don't eat them, but I don't eat nuts.
Speaker 1: I specifically asked for this not to have nuts. Could
Speaker 1: you bring you back a version that doesn't have nuts?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much? Like you are uncommonly self assured.
Speaker 1: I don't feel that though I don't insecure a lot
Speaker 1: of the time. But I find that like when she
Speaker 1: got that cold ham in the beginning and she's just like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I guess it's just a reflection of how the staff
Speaker 1: here sees me is lower and lesser, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: bitch asked for warm ham. I don't understand what you're doing. Karama.
Speaker 1: I have to say, as someone who has known you years,
Speaker 1: you are an incredibly self assured person. I remember the
Speaker 1: first time I met you, and like freshman it might
Speaker 1: have been freshman week or whatever my parents were at college,
Speaker 1: and you like extended your hand and you're like, hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Karama Aqua, so nice to meet you, Mr and
Speaker 1: Mrs Schwartz, and like the most self assured way that.
Speaker 1: I was absolutely floored. I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: she's so confident. Though you should be common we I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily relate to her, but I just I
Speaker 1: loved her. Growth like she had if we if she
Speaker 1: started out being assertive, she wouldn't have ended up with
Speaker 1: Daddy Maxim Like like we needed her to be kind
Speaker 1: of like diminutive and like kind of like a you know,
Speaker 1: in this sub dumb relationship that is being established, we
Speaker 1: needed her to be kind of like questioning everything so
Speaker 1: that at the end she can finally be like, I
Speaker 1: want a new menu. Like for her, that is such
Speaker 1: a huge moment of asserting herself, which I thought it
Speaker 1: was hilarious, Like I just I thought she was funny,
Speaker 1: Like there's something very funny and charming about her little
Speaker 1: victories being so small, but for her being key Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I mean yeah, I did relate to her. I'm
Speaker 1: not I don't think I'm like her now by any means.
Speaker 1: But I when I was eighteen, I sure and going
Speaker 1: to college, I sure didn't know how to talk to anybody,
Speaker 1: and I like sometimes would think I would, but then
Speaker 1: I would sit and stew about all the stupid things
Speaker 1: I said in my first acting class all night. You know,
Speaker 1: I think this was it's really in. It feels like
Speaker 1: a really perfect portrait of someone who was deeply insecure
Speaker 1: and hasn't come into herself. Um, and someone who suffers
Speaker 1: from anxiety. Uh, like just not knowing what to wear
Speaker 1: to the fancy dress ball and like, girl, I've been
Speaker 1: there so many times. It's like, how far do I
Speaker 1: commit to this Halloween party? Do I really go all in?
Speaker 1: Of course Max doesn't dress up, that's so typical of
Speaker 1: for him, but she perfect Yeah, my god, an impeccable tuxedo.
Speaker 1: You navigate this mine field alone? Um yeah. Anyway, I
Speaker 1: just feel like, to me, I thought she was very
Speaker 1: funny and I wanted her to speak up and that's
Speaker 1: why I did feel so satisfying in the end. Um My. Also,
Speaker 1: big note was I really want a flower room? Yes?
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree upon that everyone deserves
Speaker 1: a flower and in the morning room. I want a
Speaker 1: morning and library and a flower room to put all
Speaker 1: my flowers in. I mean I walked away from there
Speaker 1: being like, should I have tea time? When when they
Speaker 1: go to London, they're like, oh it's five oh seven,
Speaker 1: we should wait for their tea time to be over.
Speaker 1: I'm like, like on the dot these Brits. I Um.
Speaker 1: The thing that I wanted to point out a little
Speaker 1: bit towards what you're saying is like, there is a
Speaker 1: very what's the asymmetrical relationship between Max and the second
Speaker 1: Mrs de Winter that I think, um, the narrator dozen
Speaker 1: very subtle ways, which is what reminded me of Phantom
Speaker 1: Thread because the relationship is uneven. But again in the book,
Speaker 1: she is a teenager or twenty two? Is she? I
Speaker 1: think she's twenty two? They never and specifically say no, no.
Speaker 1: That's why I was like, what's she a teenager? What
Speaker 1: she was talking out? Lad? I know she was not older?
Speaker 1: I think, okay, so nineteen. I think she said she
Speaker 1: was nineteen. Yeah, so she's nineteen. He's in his forties.
Speaker 1: He is of the landed gentry, and she is an
Speaker 1: orphan nobody. So it's like all these factors combined put
Speaker 1: her in a very vulnerable position to not speak up
Speaker 1: in situations where she absolutely should speak up. Well, but
Speaker 1: she has the beginning that she's going she's going to
Speaker 1: Lady House and she's going to entertain people, and people
Speaker 1: will come down from London to see her, and um,
Speaker 1: I don't think she realizes until she gets there that
Speaker 1: she's not in a position in life where the going
Speaker 1: that that is an insurd fantasy, like imagining I'm going
Speaker 1: to build a house on the moon. She just doesn't
Speaker 1: know the details of how to manifest that, even if
Speaker 1: she has the external trappings. Yeah, and it's clear that,
Speaker 1: like Maxim, didn't know how to do that either, Rebecca
Speaker 1: make that house. Rebecca was born with a huge amount
Speaker 1: of confidence, uh, seemingly giving free reign by Danny, who
Speaker 1: raised her and um turned Manderly into this terrific show
Speaker 1: palace with beautiful gardens and amazing parties and interesting people.
Speaker 1: And all she asked for in return was the freedom
Speaker 1: to funk around. They had a very clear arrangement, I
Speaker 1: will give you the most beautiful house in the world,
Speaker 1: let me funk people in London. Yeah. Yeah, my first cousin. Okay,
Speaker 1: really interesting to me because I I had always read
Speaker 1: this assuming that Daphne saw herself as the second Mrs
Speaker 1: the Winter, because all I knew about the author was
Speaker 1: that she was very shy and she ended up buying
Speaker 1: the estate that I think is called Mandabilly that inspired man,
Speaker 1: So good for her. That's all I knew about her
Speaker 1: until I started reading more about her. She was a
Speaker 1: bisexual who had lesbian affairs, and also she fought her
Speaker 1: first cousin so and wrote about it in her memoirs.
Speaker 1: So I did not realize the extent to which the
Speaker 1: author maybe saw herself in Rebecca when certainly when I
Speaker 1: first read this book. Just to be clear, though, Rebecca
Speaker 1: definitely had some sort of sexual experience with Mrs Danver's right.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's what I thought to think.
Speaker 1: So I think Mrs has raised her her mom. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought she was the mother, like the mother died
Speaker 1: early and she raised her. That's mother daughter thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But also like I think, especially when we watched the version,
Speaker 1: the sexual element there, but felt like maybe if they
Speaker 1: didn't sleep together, then Danny Danvers wanted to for sure
Speaker 1: wanted to. Yes, yeah, yeah, I also just love like
Speaker 1: it makes the whole thing makes me really want to
Speaker 1: meet Rebecca because she is such a charming person but
Speaker 1: also clearly a sociopath, Like like the way she's described
Speaker 1: like she's able to reflect back whatever someone is is
Speaker 1: she is telling them and is able to like figure
Speaker 1: out what people want and give it to them and
Speaker 1: has no feeling for anyone. I'm like, oh, there's just
Speaker 1: like this is like a textbook sociopath, and I just
Speaker 1: think it's so like it doesn't make her, it doesn't
Speaker 1: make her villain. It just makes her so interesting to me,
Speaker 1: Like she's just like a very successful sociopath. Okay, I
Speaker 1: don't know that that's necessarily for them, because we're getting
Speaker 1: that whole perspective from maxim shot No, from Danny. Perspective
Speaker 1: is maybe partly she was only ever able to love
Speaker 1: me because I was in love with her and we
Speaker 1: were in love, and she hated all the rest of you,
Speaker 1: and that's what was happening, which is like behavior. Yet
Speaker 1: I think that the book does make it clear, at
Speaker 1: least how I read it, that Rebecca was this fascinating, beautiful,
Speaker 1: brilliant sociopath. Like Also, the way that like details about
Speaker 1: how she would like talk to people and then talk
Speaker 1: about them behind their back was very like that Regina
Speaker 1: George of like, oh my god, I love your skirt
Speaker 1: and it was my mom's in the eighties. It's not
Speaker 1: as far as about defintely like popular mean girl like
Speaker 1: for sure for and I and I questioned taste and
Speaker 1: coolness because Favel sounds like a piece of ship. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I fully imagine Favella's Ernie Hammer, like I am very
Speaker 1: surprised because she was in the upcoming person because I
Speaker 1: just don't imagine was like this beefcake an alcoholic because
Speaker 1: he was his first custom and he was like I
Speaker 1: was imagining, Oh no, girls have sweet shops and cinemas
Speaker 1: would be like very excited by his presence. Oh I
Speaker 1: didn't look a sweet shop. I would be excited by
Speaker 1: the presence. I think. I think the way they described
Speaker 1: his drinking and his like sweaty and that he's like
Speaker 1: getting puff be because of all the drinking and smoking.
Speaker 1: I just imagine that kind of very classic British character
Speaker 1: actor who's just like a little bit blustery all the
Speaker 1: time and it's just so angry about everything, tra turgity
Speaker 1: and just like now, like I think I got those
Speaker 1: two people. I have to say before you get your answer, Karama.
Speaker 1: Mine was like very greasy puffy. Colin Paris was like greasy,
Speaker 1: like greasy but hot. Okay. I think it should be
Speaker 1: Stanley Tucci because I think he can do all of
Speaker 1: those things. I think he would be do you guys
Speaker 1: watch The Lovely Bones because he was great in The
Speaker 1: Lovely Bones. He can play yucky people, but also he's
Speaker 1: still very physically attractive, Like I fell in love with
Speaker 1: Stanley Tucci when I was eleven and I watched The
Speaker 1: Midsummer Night's Dream and he was playing Puck and was like, oh,
Speaker 1: Robin good fellow indeed, but but see, I feel like
Speaker 1: his Stanley Tucci's attractiveness is in that he looks so
Speaker 1: classy and you want him in like a button down
Speaker 1: making you a drink where it's like Jack. I imagine
Speaker 1: his attractiveness is that he's like kind of seedy and
Speaker 1: like handrow you a cigarette could do that, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he before he goes on set, let him get a
Speaker 1: little hot and like, yeah, I'm for real, for real.
Speaker 1: So like I think they can do literally anything. I
Speaker 1: didn't understand Armie Hammers casting for me because he and
Speaker 1: Lily James are the same age and I think makes it.
Speaker 1: And so they're both in their mid thirty which is
Speaker 1: which is weird because Hollywood loves casting a very young
Speaker 1: woman against a forty year old man, like that's their
Speaker 1: favorite thing to do. And they had it like it
Speaker 1: was like your guys, yum, yum, here's it's tea time.
Speaker 1: He didn't eaties version for Charles Dance Winter and I
Speaker 1: think it's really good casting. Um, he's on yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he just seems really steely and unfeeling, So I don't
Speaker 1: I just looked up Jack Fabel who plays him in
Speaker 1: the New One, and his name is Sam Riley. I
Speaker 1: don't know who he is, but I actually think he
Speaker 1: he's right, he's the right blend of everything. He's younger
Speaker 1: than he's like a young she's a little he looks
Speaker 1: he's like a young good looking guy that looks a
Speaker 1: little like his bangs are sweaty, you know, perfect slutty bangs.
Speaker 1: I would like sweaty, sweaty, not slutty. Would like to
Speaker 1: find a version of Rebecca or Stanley too. She plays
Speaker 1: every role. Okay, I would absolutely I would contribute to
Speaker 1: that fund, thank you. I would say my ideal cast
Speaker 1: is like for Maxim is like a Daniel Craig. Oh, damn,
Speaker 1: Daniel Craig now or removed, But Daniel Craig now he's
Speaker 1: like fifty. You know, he's like a little I don't
Speaker 1: know that he's Do people think he's hot, Yes, they do,
Speaker 1: and it's very odd to me. I think he's kind
Speaker 1: of weird looking. Yeah, I do too. I don't find
Speaker 1: him unattractive, but I am not attracted to him. I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: your face has all the things in the places, but
Speaker 1: like your face is just a face to me. It's
Speaker 1: a fine face. It's a face. What Christian bail. Oh,
Speaker 1: he can be weird, but I think he's hotter again.
Speaker 1: I feel like it needs to look. I also think
Speaker 1: that their marriage is unconsummated up until the night before.
Speaker 1: I don't think it is because she says like he
Speaker 1: has a mother on the simon, Yeah, but does that
Speaker 1: does that mean that? Look, I think they're set scene
Speaker 1: right before she thinks he's about to go away to prison,
Speaker 1: when he's told her all about what happened to Rebecca
Speaker 1: confessed the murder, and they talked about how we held
Speaker 1: each other as we never held each other before, like
Speaker 1: plenty to each other in the night, and it feels
Speaker 1: like that's the first time consummate. I think we can
Speaker 1: agree that they never had good sex up until that point.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's pretty sure she's not pregnant. Whenever people after,
Speaker 1: might you be pregnant, She's like, no, that's impossible. I
Speaker 1: have a unnamed narrator pitch for the star for the
Speaker 1: actress is Jessica Burdon. She was at the end of
Speaker 1: the fucking world. She's like, she looks super young, but
Speaker 1: she's like eight and and she and she has something
Speaker 1: that's like she's very pretty, of course, but she just
Speaker 1: looks like she could look very plain if they wanted
Speaker 1: it to. Because I feel like that's that was her
Speaker 1: insecurity the whole time of how like classic and stunning
Speaker 1: Rebecca was and then she couldn't like get her makeup
Speaker 1: right ever and felt invisible anyway. And she's also very good,
Speaker 1: is very completely beautiful. Yeah, she's thirty five. She like
Speaker 1: looks like a stunning woman. The narrator is obsessed with
Speaker 1: being I do love the fact that we're like, this
Speaker 1: woman's too old, which I mean she is for the
Speaker 1: character she is. I just think it's funny that that's
Speaker 1: the conversation character. But I think I think it's like
Speaker 1: because her naivete is like so fundamental to the character.
Speaker 1: But yes, we are. I will I will always argue
Speaker 1: for women to be older in movies. Then like it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this this a woman who used to be an Ingnue
Speaker 1: two years ago. Now that she's thirty four, is like
Speaker 1: the mother of two eighteen year olds, like that's always
Speaker 1: what happened, and it's like very disappointing. They have to
Speaker 1: get really into vacing that. Just her instagram is just
Speaker 1: I'm all about cooking for my family. Now. Yeah, when
Speaker 1: you turned thirty, you have to be mommy. Now, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's take a brief moment here for an ad break. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're back with Popcorn book Club. I wanted to go
Speaker 1: back to the question of sex. I I do think
Speaker 1: that they had sex over their honeymoon, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I think they had the classic vacation they had like
Speaker 1: the vacation sex, like the the like and the vacation
Speaker 1: love story that when you like get back to your
Speaker 1: regular life, everything is not as what it seemed like.
Speaker 1: Everything is like you were in bliss in your vacation
Speaker 1: in Monte Carlo and Italy and then and then they
Speaker 1: never had sex a Mandy, and that's what's they don't have.
Speaker 1: They don't have to surprise that they shared a bedroom,
Speaker 1: Like I know they had different beds, but I and
Speaker 1: the first part of the book, I just imagined her
Speaker 1: to have her own corridors because it felt she felt
Speaker 1: so isolated to me, didn't they though I thought it
Speaker 1: was like a sweet I thought it was I think
Speaker 1: it well, but I thought it was like in doubt, nay,
Speaker 1: like their attached. Maybe they were like, Oh, we love
Speaker 1: each other so much that we're gonna bunk convention and
Speaker 1: sleep together every night. M wow. Being in the sounds
Speaker 1: exhausting images. Also, all the may it seemed to be
Speaker 1: having a lot of fun, Like every time she was
Speaker 1: looking at the maids and they were all like having
Speaker 1: fun gossiping, and like I was like, this sounds like
Speaker 1: a better time. Oh yeah, every time she sees a
Speaker 1: middle class Oh yeah, when have a picnic with people
Speaker 1: who were vacationing there, she like goes and sees a
Speaker 1: family at the beach. That's just like a normal mom
Speaker 1: with her children and dad, and they're like having an afternoon.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to talk a little bit about like
Speaker 1: the pieces that I loved were like basically when it
Speaker 1: was all the falling action after the ball and the
Speaker 1: constant reveals, and I feel like what I loved about
Speaker 1: the reveals, even if you saw the murder coming, was
Speaker 1: it like it every time re contextualized everything that you've read,
Speaker 1: especially like Mrs Danvers point point of view over and
Speaker 1: over again. I feel like she's the most interesting character
Speaker 1: in the book to me. Um, just like with ends
Speaker 1: with her fucking burning Manderley Down is amazing, but amazing,
Speaker 1: you know, just from Mrs Danverse, that really terrifying scene
Speaker 1: where she explains that you should be dead and tries
Speaker 1: to convince the narrator to kill herself. Yeah, she almost
Speaker 1: does it because classic scorn. You just convinced people from
Speaker 1: just joking, please don't these are not none of these
Speaker 1: And the tricking of the narrator to where that outfit
Speaker 1: was so fucking cruel. But then you realize. At first
Speaker 1: I was like, that was so cruel to do to her,
Speaker 1: and then I realized, oh, she's doing it to him,
Speaker 1: like she's doing it to her, but really it's to him.
Speaker 1: And then you realize, like, oh, because he killed her
Speaker 1: and she knows that like she does, and she can't
Speaker 1: do anything about it, and and so it's just like
Speaker 1: this unraveling and then the body being found and it
Speaker 1: just and and then I mean, I loved the reveal
Speaker 1: that was the one I did not see with the doctor.
Speaker 1: I thought it was going to be that she was pregnant,
Speaker 1: and I think a moment. That's because one and then
Speaker 1: I think they think that you're saying it, and then
Speaker 1: they're like, and that will see all Maxim's fate because
Speaker 1: that's a motive. And I just love that. And every
Speaker 1: turn he gets off and I felt myself, even though
Speaker 1: it's awful, but I felt myself rooting for him to
Speaker 1: get off because I was just on this ride with
Speaker 1: the narrator. But then at the end, when Manderley burns down,
Speaker 1: I was like, fuck, yes, like it was just such
Speaker 1: I I don't know. I love that point. I do
Speaker 1: think that the book like that period where you're we're
Speaker 1: all like rooting for Maxim to get away away. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're not, but the institution of the book is positioning
Speaker 1: with the anticipation and the fear of Maxi, this man
Speaker 1: who actually did murder his wife, whether he had a
Speaker 1: reason or not. You're still not allowed to murder your wife,
Speaker 1: even if she taunts you, sorry that she taunted you.
Speaker 1: Just not shoot someone. You cannot take a joke. You
Speaker 1: literally cannot take a joke with somebody that you have
Speaker 1: complete power over. So, like I said, the whole book
Speaker 1: is structured like I found a very funny way that
Speaker 1: is very true of like the way that the system
Speaker 1: looks out for rich white men. Like the policeman knows
Speaker 1: he did it, but he's on his side. And even
Speaker 1: when Jack is like, no, he did it and you
Speaker 1: actually did it, He's like, okay, ha ha, we'll hear
Speaker 1: you out because we have to. But everyone involved is
Speaker 1: like really hoping we don't have enough evidence that we
Speaker 1: have to deal with this because we want Maxim you
Speaker 1: give charity. No one wants to hold him responsible for
Speaker 1: his actions. They're all actively resisting but look good in
Speaker 1: Maxim's life. Everything makes Maxim an interesting Person's Mandardly. It's
Speaker 1: what he uses as the big to get the second
Speaker 1: Missus de Winter to marry him. That he talks about,
Speaker 1: like how you'll love Mandrely and she's seen it on
Speaker 1: a postcard and she like knows that everybody thinks as
Speaker 1: a status cabulous, that's all Rebecca. Rebecca me that house um,
Speaker 1: and I think maybe it is cly. The fact that
Speaker 1: I'm not reading this book when I'm sixteen anymore, and
Speaker 1: the fact that I am an adult now and we
Speaker 1: had to do renovations and I had to on a
Speaker 1: very very small level fix up my house the way
Speaker 1: Rebecca did. Yeah, Danny should burn that place to the ground.
Speaker 1: That place was Rebecca. She did the work. That's why
Speaker 1: I made her husband a remotely interesting person. I will
Speaker 1: say that matters history. Before Rebecca showed up, I think
Speaker 1: it was shit, and the Maxim makes that clear of
Speaker 1: like this place is dur the garbage. Rebecca maybe spend
Speaker 1: money on it. I never considered that before their furniture,
Speaker 1: like they had nice furniture, but it was all in storage.
Speaker 1: And Rebecca, yeah, she brought around like the Renaissance of
Speaker 1: Manderl like it did have a storied history. It was
Speaker 1: just fallen into disrepair. So I feel like he could
Speaker 1: have let it continue to fester, but she brought it
Speaker 1: back and revived it. And that is what does him
Speaker 1: more interesting as opposed to just posting on family legacy.
Speaker 1: It does. It's not about the winter. I think it's
Speaker 1: a perfect in that way. It's the perfect consequence for
Speaker 1: his actions in so it's just like, well, now they're
Speaker 1: just two boring people living in a mediocre hotel with
Speaker 1: each other's company. And to be clear, I was not
Speaker 1: rooting for Maxim to get away with killing his wife.
Speaker 1: I think it was just it's the ride that you're
Speaker 1: taken on in those scenes where it's like you want
Speaker 1: the tension to be released, and at every point they
Speaker 1: don't let it. Like you think when he comes back
Speaker 1: from the court, he's going to be like I was convicted,
Speaker 1: and then he's not, and then Favel comes over and
Speaker 1: then that doesn't work, and then you go to the
Speaker 1: doctor and then that. So it's just like this this
Speaker 1: sense of dread that I felt in that back third
Speaker 1: of the book that didn't allow me to put it down,
Speaker 1: and that the like in that back half of all
Speaker 1: the descriptions of like the Knowing looks like so much
Speaker 1: of that last half is just like what's her? Um
Speaker 1: Mrs the second Mrs de Winter talking about Frank looking
Speaker 1: at her maximum looking at her, not making eye contect,
Speaker 1: making like he knows, Like I I love that ship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that scene, it makes so much sense that Hitgecog was like, um,
Speaker 1: excuse me, I will take this one furtive yances. I
Speaker 1: guess I kind of was rooting for Maxim, like I
Speaker 1: find in spite of myself. No no, But then because
Speaker 1: like they make Jack seemed like such a near duell
Speaker 1: and like you don't want him to have his victory.
Speaker 1: He's such a slime bag. Oh my god, he's lover
Speaker 1: he's dead because I'm sorry, Jennifer, he was blackmailing. He
Speaker 1: didn't like. No, I understand. Can both be bad and
Speaker 1: also against each other. That's true. I'm just alcoholic now.
Speaker 1: And it's because he sat. The book clearly frames Jack
Speaker 1: as the antagonist in this scenario, and because we're in
Speaker 1: the second missistant Winter's Head, we are on Max's side.
Speaker 1: And then it takes like a pause. You have to
Speaker 1: read it and then pause and take a minute to
Speaker 1: step back and be Dana again and be like, oh, no,
Speaker 1: I mean he did he murdered his wife. Yeah, for me,
Speaker 1: so that I think the book, the book brings you
Speaker 1: on that ride in her voice and her perspective, and
Speaker 1: she is on. She is Maxims ride or die. She
Speaker 1: finds out that he murdered someone and does not give
Speaker 1: it a moment of critical thought, which is such a
Speaker 1: credit to Daphne Right because I was reading, I was
Speaker 1: looking up some articles and people she in when it
Speaker 1: first came out, was surprised that people thought that this
Speaker 1: was a romantic novel, Like it's such a credit to
Speaker 1: her writing that she was able to make so many
Speaker 1: people kind of lust and also be excited about this
Speaker 1: murder man. Murder man, daddy baby girl so excited about
Speaker 1: those two. Uh well, a lot of people in this
Speaker 1: group have like long term relationships. Um. I have always
Speaker 1: thought that if my husband came home and told me
Speaker 1: that he murdered someone, I would sigret how to get
Speaker 1: him up was the country like like, obviously I would escape.
Speaker 1: I would assume that whoever he murdered there was a
Speaker 1: good reason. And I wonder if the most people feel
Speaker 1: about their partners, and she knows him though you so well,
Speaker 1: would ever do that. Maybe that's why I'm the only
Speaker 1: single person here. But if somebody I was dating came
Speaker 1: home to me and was like, Babe, I killed somebody.
Speaker 1: I swear to you it was completely justified. I would
Speaker 1: be like, okay, sweetheart, that's great. You go pack the suitcases,
Speaker 1: and as soon as they left the room, I would
Speaker 1: call nine one one immediately because I am not going
Speaker 1: so we could escape. But here, but here's the difference.
Speaker 1: I want to say, Jennifer, you and Daniel have known
Speaker 1: each other four years and have had an intimate, close
Speaker 1: relationship in which you are a partner and teammates in
Speaker 1: your life. You know Daniel, and you in your heart
Speaker 1: would know Daniel is a I could speak on behalf
Speaker 1: of me, is a very gentleman. And if he killed someone,
Speaker 1: there would be certain where it's like, I think that
Speaker 1: the book make it. But if the book makes very
Speaker 1: very clear that they don't. She doesn't know Max UM's
Speaker 1: basically strange. That's sorry. And if if it was your
Speaker 1: long term partner, okay, and they came back and they
Speaker 1: were like, I murdered someone because they and because they
Speaker 1: didn't laugh at my joke, I would be like, okay,
Speaker 1: I have to I have to. Especially I think if
Speaker 1: it was a stranger, if I would be and I've
Speaker 1: known Jeremy, you know for a very long time, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, all right, but let's figure this out. But
Speaker 1: if he was like, so, you know my ex how
Speaker 1: she died that was because of me, I'd be like,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm so sorry. You're going to jail looking
Speaker 1: up as you're saying you're going to turn them in.
Speaker 1: You need to make them figure on their side, And
Speaker 1: then I'm with you. I am, and the cops immediately
Speaker 1: like I don't work with the tops. And I was
Speaker 1: still called the top right, God, you're right, this man
Speaker 1: is murdered. He might murder again. I do want to
Speaker 1: say something, um. So we had all talked about sort
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the book, and I would just
Speaker 1: like to say that I think that it could have
Speaker 1: benefited from another edit. Um. The beginning of chapter three
Speaker 1: was where I was like, oh, this book should have
Speaker 1: started here. Like, I didn't want it to start with
Speaker 1: them in the hotel on the lamb, not on the lamb,
Speaker 1: because nobody thinks that he did it, even though he
Speaker 1: did it. But um, I wanted it to start with
Speaker 1: the line I wonder what my life would be today
Speaker 1: if Mrs van Hopper had not been a snob. I
Speaker 1: think that that's such an engaging begin I love the
Speaker 1: witness or it begins, first of all, because I think
Speaker 1: the only two moments of real clarity that this narrators
Speaker 1: has are in her dreams. That the first one is
Speaker 1: about dreaming about returning to Manderley, and the second one
Speaker 1: is in the last chapter where she dreams about Rebecca
Speaker 1: coming through her dreams and Rebecca just destroying everything. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think those are things that she can't think
Speaker 1: about in her waking life, and that's really fascinating. And
Speaker 1: I think the next chapter means that we all know
Speaker 1: how this plays out, Like we're all just waiting to
Speaker 1: see how they go from having this beautiful home in
Speaker 1: Cornwall to living in city hotels. And she begins as
Speaker 1: a paid companion to an older, unpleasant person, and now
Speaker 1: she is a paid companion to an older unpleasant person again,
Speaker 1: and it's her husband. And I think part of what
Speaker 1: makes it such a mystery is how she gets back
Speaker 1: to that place. I'm not a big fan at the end,
Speaker 1: at the beginning most of the time. That's that's I
Speaker 1: think that's a personal thing for me. Also hate very
Speaker 1: vivid descriptions of Flora, and that's like a lot of
Speaker 1: the first two chapters. I think we've talked about that before.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't want to hear about plants. I
Speaker 1: don't want to hear about there's a lot of flower talks.
Speaker 1: We gotta we got to know all about the as Ailiens,
Speaker 1: which are blood red at first but then afterward come
Speaker 1: in blue. Yeah again, all her there. Yeah. I love
Speaker 1: that You're I love Jennifer, that you're giving You're You're
Speaker 1: the Danvers of this. I will say that that convicting
Speaker 1: her to wear the costume that Rebecca Laura to her
Speaker 1: last ball is a crazy, I mean, amazing prank move
Speaker 1: like it's so it's evil genius, Like it is so
Speaker 1: evil and and I just wanted. I was like shouting
Speaker 1: in my like the trap don't do? Why why do
Speaker 1: you trust me? I couldn't so so naive, but I
Speaker 1: do look like I crom I agree. Sometimes I don't
Speaker 1: like knowing the ending at the beginning, like I really
Speaker 1: try to avoid spoilers and things, but I think that
Speaker 1: to me the way, like every now and then she
Speaker 1: would like drop in like, uh, you know, the first
Speaker 1: and last my first and last fancy dress ball. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, just like little things of reminding you of
Speaker 1: the dread. I feel like this book was so much
Speaker 1: dread and I love that ship, and I think there's something.
Speaker 1: If there wasn't that I would be like I don't
Speaker 1: care about the rhododendrons, like I don't because I know
Speaker 1: there's a body coming. I know there's gonna be a
Speaker 1: body human being. When I'm reading something where I and
Speaker 1: I think it's taking too long to get to the murder,
Speaker 1: like I recently was reading Heather Wells Mystery series and
Speaker 1: I think it's the fourth book. In it, you don't
Speaker 1: get to the body until like page fifty, and I
Speaker 1: kept texting people. I was like, I'm reading the next
Speaker 1: Heather Wells book and there's no one dead yet, and
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm on page fifteen. Where is the
Speaker 1: dead body? Where it at? Give me the body? I
Speaker 1: want the death, give me the murder. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's a murder mystery, I want the murder. This is
Speaker 1: a very atmospheric novel. It's like it's everything is in
Speaker 1: subtle glances and the like arranging flowers and then like
Speaker 1: what time is t again? Like little social conventions. That's
Speaker 1: our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1: I'm Danis Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter
Speaker 1: at Danish Schwartz with three z s. You can follow
Speaker 1: Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Right, Karama down Qua is
Speaker 1: at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t
Speaker 1: W and Tan Tran is smart enough to have and
Speaker 1: off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotis and we're produced and
Speaker 1: edited by Mike John's Special thanks to David Wasserman. Next week,
Speaker 1: after we make sure to print up a bunch of
Speaker 1: give Me the Murder t shirts thank you for EMA,
Speaker 1: we will continue our conversation about Rebecca before we jump
Speaker 1: into the screen time portion of this book and do
Speaker 1: the nineteen forties Alfred Hitchcock adaptation and then the Army
Speaker 1: Hammer Lily James adaptation. Coming to Netflix. Popcorn book Club
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio.