1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Hey, it's time for another Saturday classic. So for folks 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: who are just joining in or who are wondering why 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: stuff you missed in History class showing up in their 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: podcast feed on the weekend. Uh, We're trying a new 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: thing for listeners who may be are newer and haven't 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: taken a dive into the back catalog. So on Saturday's 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna re air some of our favorites from the past. 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: Today we have the Count of san Gramat. He claimed, 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: among many things, to be an immortal and to know 10 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: the Queen of Sheba. And in the years since this 11 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: episode first came out, he also became a recurring character 12 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: in the second season of the TV adaptation of Outlander, 13 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: so at least among fans of Outlander, he maybe has 14 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: a little wider name recognition than before. So let's hop 15 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: right into his story. Welcome to Stuff You Missed in 16 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: History Class from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Collie Fry, I'm Wilson. The 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: subject of today's episode is the center of so many 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: myths and stories and rumors that it's a little bit 20 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: hard to separate fact from fiction. That we will do 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: our best to make sure we hit the actually documented 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: elements of his story. Uh. There are accounts of teleportation, 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: involved alchemy, even immortality that swirl around this person, who 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: is the Count of Saint Gema. You'll also see him 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: referenced in uh the foreign version of Comte de Saint 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: Gemin Uh. And did an immortal actually walk among the 27 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 1: aristocrats of Europe in the eighteenth century courts? I'm gonna 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: say odds or no, but he has some interesting and 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: compelling fastest to his story. He does seem to have 30 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: perhaps convinced many people that he did. Yeah, and he, 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, allegedly could make himself invisible. He according to 32 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: some accounts New Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Some 33 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: accounts even put him at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Taste. Uh. However, 34 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: he can also turn let into gold apparently, or something 35 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: close enough, according to one actual account that was written 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,559 Speaker 1: in the letter. And we'll talk about that more specifically. 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: But what was the real deal with this guy? Was 38 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: he a charlatan? Was he an actual legit mystic or 39 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: was he just sort of a madman caught up in 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: his own lies. I'm not sure that the truth has 41 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: to include or exclude any or all of those, because 42 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: it's really there's a lot of stuff involved and many 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: layers and weirdness. I made a weird noise, that's how. 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: That's how convinced I am that one of the things 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: list of possibilities is not the right one. I am 46 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: generally a very skeptical person, so I, you know, suspect 47 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: that not the real deal. But that's you know, yeah, 48 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: that is I'm kind of an accums razor, kind of galt. Well, 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: I am the uh the extreme claims or are extreme evidence, 50 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: which you know, some guy wrote this in a journal 51 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: does not count right. Uh So normally we would do 52 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: early history on people and well kind of, but when 53 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: we get to the like when was he born, Well, 54 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: it's really tricky in this particular one because there are 55 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: different stories and in some cases no story. Most reputable 56 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: sources that try to put his birth somewhere on the 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: timeline put it somewhere between seventeen ten and seventeen twelve. 58 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: And there were times late in the Count's life that 59 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: he claimed that he was the son of the Transylvanian 60 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: Prince Farrank, the second Recuzzie, who led a Hungarian uprising 61 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: called the Kuric Revolt against the Habsburg Empire and Recuz 62 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: he had several sons, one of whom died as a child, 63 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: and those who believe that Count Sangrement was the Transylvanian 64 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: Prince's son claimed that that death, the death of the child, 65 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: had been fake to protect the young boy in the 66 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: midst of this political tumult, and this version of the 67 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: count's origins, if you buy into that, actually puts his 68 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: birth a little bit earlier, around six I think there's 69 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: a lot bit earlier it does. But you know, he 70 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: was ageless, much like Dick Clark. So I was gonna 71 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: say Dorian Gray. I went with a less impressive and 72 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: more pop culturally reference. Yes. So he first appeared in 73 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: historical documentation much later. In seventy five, he was mentioned 74 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: in a letter from Horace Walpole, who was the fourth 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: Earl of Orford and the author of the horror fiction 76 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: of the Castle of a Toronto, which is like one 77 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: of the first horror novels in English. I read it 78 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: before you. I'm sure you can find it for free 79 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: on the internet. Um. So, this letter was from Horace 80 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: Walpole to Horace Mann, who was a London merchant and diplomat, 81 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: not to be confused with the American educator by same 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: name that he was around about a hundred years later. 83 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: So the two Horaces maintained a friendship through correspondence for 84 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: more than four decades, and on December nine, Walpole wrote 85 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: the following We begin to take up people, but it 86 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: is with as much caution and timidity as women of 87 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: quality begins upon their jewels. We have not ventured upon 88 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: any great stone yet. The Provost of Edinburgh is in 89 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: custody of a messenger, and the other day they seized 90 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: an odd man who goes by the name of Count 91 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: Saint Germain. He has been here these two years and 92 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: will not tell who he is or whence, but professes 93 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: that he does not go by his right name. He sings, 94 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: plays on the violin wonderfully composes, is mad and not 95 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 1: very sensible. He has called an Italian, a Spaniard, a pole, 96 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: a somebody that married a great fortune in Mexico and 97 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: ran away with her jewels to Constantinople, a priest, a fiddler, 98 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: a vast nobleman. The Prince of Wales has had unsatiated 99 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: curiosity about him, but in vain however nothing has been 100 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: made out against him. He is released, and what convinces 101 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: me that he is not a gentleman stays here and 102 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: talks of his being taken up for a spy. So 103 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: the Count was arrested and released and then opted to 104 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: hang out and talk about his arrest and how he 105 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: was suspected of being a spy. He had been suspected 106 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: of being a Jacobite agent, but was released when nobody 107 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: could find any evidence of it. And in seventeen forty six, 108 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: roughly a year after this letter was written, so at 109 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: this point he's been in London for about three years. 110 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: A performance of musical compositions by the Count took place, 111 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: and those musical pieces were also published at the same time, 112 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: and the Count was apparently genuinely talented as a composer. 113 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: He wrote at least forty Italian arias, seven solos for violin, 114 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: and six trio sonatas, as well as other things, but 115 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: those are kind of some of the high point of 116 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: his uh CV as a composer. However, after this this 117 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: musical um composition publication, he vanishes from the record, either 118 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: he left London or kind of faded into the background 119 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: for a while, and during his time on the d 120 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: L he said to have been in Vienna for a 121 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: while and then in India. And I should point out, 122 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: as we talked about kind of these kind of major 123 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: turning points in his story of him being in a location, 124 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: he was allegedly kind of constantly traveling. So even if 125 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: he was kind of setting up regular um um house 126 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: in some particular space, he was also probably going out 127 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: and visiting many other places at the same time. Allegedly. Uh. 128 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: The count next appeared in Versailles in seventeen forty eight, 129 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: and Charlouis august Fouquet, Duke de Bellisle, made Saint Germains 130 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: introductions at court, presenting this mysterious count as an expert 131 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: in dye and textiles, and this being the court of 132 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: France in the eighteenth century, that was basically enough said, uh, 133 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: you know someone who can make beautiful things, You're in right. 134 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: And so for two years he made himself extremely comfortable 135 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: in French society. He went to parties and charmed everybody there. 136 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: He started dropping little hints about being a very extraordinary individual. 137 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: He would give away diamonds, saying that he could just 138 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: make them. He would play the harpsichord and the violin 139 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: with very great skill. He would give beauty advice to 140 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: the ladies of the court, and he eventually gained the 141 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: ear of King Louis the fift himself and one of 142 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: Saint Germiles habits was to set up a lab wherever 143 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: he went, which is where he would do things like 144 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: mixed beauty elixers for the ladies. He would die fabrics 145 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: and other media, and he would also work his alchemy. Uh. 146 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because he was apparently quite a good chemist, 147 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: Like he really was good at like textile dying and 148 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: coming up with different paints. Uh. One story says that 149 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: he made a paint that was odor free, which at 150 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: the time was completely unusual. It's unusual now, um. But 151 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: then there was always also this alchemy element to it. 152 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: And he said to have removed a flaw from deep 153 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: within a diamond for King Louis fifte without diminishing its size. 154 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: But he would never disclose how he achieved this feat. 155 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: I have an idea, you do that he did not 156 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: do this for real. I'm extremely skeptical about his whole story, 157 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: Like I have an idea, no so um. During this 158 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: time he allegedly had an exchange with an elderly countess 159 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: who had accompanied her husband to Venice in the early 160 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds. This countess asked him whether his father had 161 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: been in Venice in seventeen ten, and he is said 162 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: to have replied, no, madam, it is very much longer 163 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: since I lost my father. But I myself was living 164 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: in Venice at the end of the last and the 165 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: beginning of this century. I had the honor to pay 166 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: you court then, and you were kind enough to admire 167 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: a few barkarrolls of my composing, which we used to 168 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: sing together. And the countess was rather be fuddled at this, 169 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: and she told the count no, no, this could not 170 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: be the case. The man she was speaking of had 171 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: been in his mid forties, and that was the age 172 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: that the count appeared before her there in the court 173 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: of France. And again she's referencing seventeen ten, and this is, 174 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, in the seventeen fifties. And uh, he replied 175 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: to her, just simply, madam, I am very old. I 176 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: totally saw this conversation. And one of the lord of 177 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: the Rings extended editions, he's one of the Donadines, so Basically, 178 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: any time the account was questioned about his past, particularly 179 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: his childhood, he would get into these astounding tales or 180 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: divert the conversation to another topic. And this really got 181 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: tongues wagging and created all the speculative gossip around him. Yeah, 182 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: which in the court of France at this time, I 183 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: mean publicity uh. And while he was in France and 184 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: rubbing shoulders with royalty, he had this other weird cork 185 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: which added to this sort of cloud of speculation, which 186 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: is that he allegedly never ate in public. Uh. Though 187 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: according to some accounts, he would occasionally eat in front 188 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: of people, but it was only oatmeal or lean cuts 189 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: of chicken uh. And in some accounts he tells people 190 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: that this is all he eats, rather than them actually 191 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: witnessing it. But this just added to his sensational reputation, 192 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: which just grew super rapidly. Also growing very rapidly was 193 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: his responsibility to the king. King Louis the fifteenth started 194 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: sending him on missions, sometimes of a rather unclear nature, 195 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: and this is what led to rumors that he was 196 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: the king's personal spy. It also drew the scorn of 197 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: lots of other people. Yeah, you couldn't really be the 198 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: King's favorite without making people angry, uh, and the Duc 199 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: de Choise was particularly suspicious of the seemingly mystical count. 200 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: And there was also um a matter of heightened tensions 201 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: because this was all going on at the height of 202 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: the Seven Years War between England and France. So for 203 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: him to be a secret spy with the ear of 204 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: the king during this time, it was a very tenth 205 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: time and it made people that should have been important 206 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: in state affairs kind of left out of the loop 207 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: of these doings, and that was an irritant. While san 208 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: Germain was traveling to Amsterdam on business for the King, 209 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: Schwazoe and the Count of Affrey were exchanging letters about 210 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: what he was doing. San Germain had told the Count 211 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: of Affrey that Amsterdam finances were in just a terrible 212 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: state and that he alone could fix them. He pitched 213 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: this scheme to do so, which involved lots and lots 214 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: of moving parts and the establishment of a fund for 215 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: France to be bankrolled by the Dutch. He also told 216 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: Afrey that he had made all these plans without the 217 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: knowledge of the higher authorities, claiming that he had been 218 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: sent with this general sort of mission to negotiate peace 219 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: between the warring countries. Sounds pretty shady. Yeah, Afrey was 220 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: there in Amsterdam and he was receiving this man and 221 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: talking to him and being like, wait, you want to 222 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: do what? Uh? And in the meantime him Uh. Choizoi 223 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: had also intercepted this letter from Saint Germain to the 224 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: Marquise de Pompadour, who was King Louis the fifteenth Chief Mistress. 225 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: And in this letter Saint Germain deeply mischaracterized his connections 226 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: at the Hague. So while Choizoi and Afrey were comparing notes, 227 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: they did not match up to what Uh the Count 228 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: was saying was going on when they saw this letter 229 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: that he had written the Marquise Uh. And this letter, 230 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: combined with the accounts from the Count of Afrey, we're 231 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: really quite damning for Saint Geremain. And a letter that 232 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: went from Schwizoi to Afrey on March nineteen, seventeen sixty. 233 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: This is this is what was written down, Sir, I 234 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: send you a letter from Monsieur de Saint Germain to 235 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: the Marquise de Pompadour, which in itself will suffice to 236 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: expose the absurdity of the personage. He is an adventurer 237 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: of the first order, who was, moreover, so far as 238 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: I have seen, exceedingly foolish. I beg you immediately, on 239 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: receiving my letter, to summon him to your house and 240 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: to tell him from me that I do not know 241 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: how the King's Minister in charge of the Finance department 242 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: will look on his conduct with regard to this object, 243 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: but that as to myself, you are ordered to warn 244 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: him that if I learn that far or near, and 245 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: much or little he chooses to meddle with politics, I 246 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: assure him that I shall obtain an order from the 247 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: King that on his return to France he will be 248 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: placed for the rest of his days in an underground dungeon. 249 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: Exclamation point. It goes on. You will add that he 250 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: may be quite sure that these intentions of mine concerning 251 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: him are as sincere as they will surely be executed 252 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: if he gives me the opportunity of keeping my word. 253 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: After this declaration, you will request him never again to 254 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: set foot in your house, and it will be well 255 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: for you to make public and known to all the 256 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: foreign ministers as well as the bankers of Amsterdam, the 257 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: compliment that you have been commanded to pay to this 258 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: insufferable adventurer. Yeah, Saint Germain did not return to France. Uh. 259 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: He fled to England after this all went down, but 260 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: he did not stay there for terribly long. And before 261 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: we go on to his next crazy adventure, do you 262 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: want to take a moment and here worked from our 263 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: sponsors deeper. So now back to the Illustrius count. In 264 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: seventeen sixty three, Saint Germain turned up in Belgium, and 265 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: this time he was going by the name of Surmont. 266 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: You may recall that I mentioned in the Rose Barton 267 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: episode people would change their names frequently at this time. Uh. 268 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: And the count was a pro at that he was 269 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: constantly going by different names. Uh. And he purchased a 270 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: parcel of land there in Belgium, and he set up 271 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: a lab. And his intent was to enter into a 272 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: contract with the Belgian government to provide them certain proprietary 273 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: chemical process This is that he had developed, so some 274 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: of these things, like you know, specific dies and paints 275 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: that he had been working on. One of the most 276 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: important aspects of this attempt at a business deal with 277 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: Belgium comes in the form of a letter sent by 278 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: an official who met with San German slash Sermont. This official, 279 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: Carl Cobenzel, sent the following in a note to Prince 280 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: count It's the prime Minister, and he says, it was 281 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: about three months ago that the person known by the 282 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: name of Comte de Saint Germain passed this way and 283 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: came to see me. I found him the most singular 284 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: man that I ever saw in my life. I do 285 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: not yet precisely know his birth. I believe, however, that 286 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: he is the son of a clandestine union in a 287 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: powerful and illustrious family, possessing great wealth. He lives in 288 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: the greatest of simplicity. He knows everything and shows an uprightness, 289 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: a goodness of soul worthy of admiration. Among a number 290 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: of his accomplishments he made under my own eyes, some 291 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: experiments of which the most important were the transmutation of 292 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: iron into a metal as beautiful as gold and at 293 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: least as good for all goldsmith's work. The dying and 294 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: preparation of skins carried to a perfection which surpassed all 295 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: the Moroccos in the world, and the most perfect tanning. 296 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: The dying of silks carried to a perfection hitherto unknown. 297 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: The like dying of woolens the dying of wood in 298 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: the most brilliant colors, penetrating through and through and the 299 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: whole without either indigo or cocael, with the commonest ingredients, 300 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: and consequently, at a very moderate price, the composition of 301 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: colors for painting ultramarine is as perfect as is made 302 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: from lapis leslie. And finally removing the smell from painting oils, 303 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: and making the best oil of Provence, from the oils 304 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: of Novette, of Coursat, and from others even the worst 305 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: I have in my hands. All these productions made under 306 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: my own eyes. I have had them undergo the most 307 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: strict examinations, and seeing in these articles a prophet which 308 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: might mount up to millions, I have endeavored to take 309 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 1: advantage of the friendship that this man has felt for me, 310 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: and to learn from him all these secrets. He has 311 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: given them to me, and he asks nothing for himself 312 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: beyond a payment proportionate to the profits that might may 313 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: accrue from them, it being understood that this shall be 314 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: only when the profit has been made. So this letter 315 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: creates a public record of San German's alchemical skills, and 316 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: whether Cobenzel was duped or was some sort of co conspirator, 317 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: is not really known. Yeah, we don't have those actual 318 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: samples he claimed to have to back any of it up. Well, 319 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: and if if anybody had really ever figured out how 320 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: to turn let into gold, surely that would have spread 321 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: like wildfire. Yeah, that where someone would still be plying 322 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: that trade. Yeah, well, you know that was like the 323 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: big alchemical quest for a really long time, like let's 324 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: figure out how to turn base metals into gold. Yeah, 325 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: we know that does not really work. That's Antoine Lavoisier 326 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: would have some things to say. This letter, as you said, 327 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: creates this public record. Uh. But the deal fell through 328 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: just the same, and Saint Germain moved on, and the 329 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: years after things went south in Belgium he basically went 330 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: all over the globe. Maybe not all over the globe, 331 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: he went a lot of places. Uh. In seventeen sixty two, 332 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: Saint Germain was in St. Petersburg, just in time for 333 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: Catherine the Great to seize the throne in a coup. 334 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: And whether or not Saint Germain was involved in that 335 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: coup is actually a matter of some debate. There are 336 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: people that will directly trace it to him and say 337 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: that he, you know, as part of his greater mystical being, 338 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: has catalyzed many important world events, this being one of them, 339 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: and others are like no, he just happened to be there. 340 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: After leaving Russia, he stayed out of high profile circles. 341 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: There were sightings of him in various places, but the 342 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: official accounts of where he was or somewhere between between 343 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: sparse and non existent. And then almost a decade later 344 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: he turned up in Bavaria in seventeen seventy four, and 345 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: he was at this point traveling under the name of 346 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: Zarogi and feigning to be older than he had previously 347 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: said he was, although he eventually claimed to be the 348 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: son of Prince Requisie. When he was caught in this deception, 349 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: it seemed like he had maybe stolen someone's identity. Uh. 350 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: And then someone figured out that that could not be 351 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: the case, and he said, no, no, no, I'm an 352 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: exiled I'm a prince on the run. In seventeen seventy six, 353 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: he was peddling his chemistry wears in Germany, trying once 354 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: again to get a government contract, and in spite of 355 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: getting some positive interest for his non mystical wears, he 356 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: blew the deal once again. He started talking about all 357 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: of his alchemy skills and how amazing he was, and 358 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: that soured the negotiations. Another reason that Sandra Man lost 359 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: the deal was contextual suspicion. He was not the only 360 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: person in Europe claiming to be an alchemist, and enough 361 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: nobles had been duped and in Germany only shortly before 362 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: he came on the scene, that there was just a 363 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: general reluctance to get involved in this kind of business. Yeah, 364 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: there there had been other miss a cool people trapesing 365 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: around getting money out of people, so naturally, you know, 366 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: it was kind of a we just got burned by this. 367 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: You might you might be real. I don't know. But 368 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: while he was in Germany, the Count of Sagrement made 369 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: a really important friend, and that was Prince Karl of 370 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: hes Kassel, Governor of Schleiswig Holstein. And Prince Carl took 371 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: in this wandering mystic and he set him up with 372 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: a lab for performing his chemistry and a chemical experiments, 373 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: and you know, lodging set him up with the little house. 374 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: He has been associated with the Rosicrucians, the Society of 375 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: Asiatic Brothers, the Knights of Light, the Illuminati, the Order 376 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: of the Templars, and has even been named as a 377 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: co founder of the Freemasons. But being secret societies, we 378 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: naturally don't know a lot about what level of involvement 379 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: he may have had, if any. Yeah, and some uh, 380 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, some texts saying, you know, we want to 381 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: disassociate from him. We just don't know. But what we 382 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: do know is that he spent several years in Schleswig 383 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: at this point with Prince Karl, and it's here that 384 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: he's reported to have met his end. He died on 385 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: February eighty four after catching pneumonia. The Count is said 386 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: to have told Prince Carl that he left a note 387 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: for him and his personal effects to be opened in 388 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: the event of his death, but no such note was 389 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: ever actually found. Yeah, and Carl wasn't there when he died. 390 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: He was away in his personal physician, uh witnessed the death. 391 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: But so when Carl came back, he was expecting a 392 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: note and got none. Well, before we go on to 393 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: kind of the postmortem legend, do you want to take 394 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: another moment for an ad break. Of course, you were 395 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: so at this point in time in our story, the 396 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: Count Sangerement is deceased h And as we said at 397 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: the top of the podcast, sussing out how much of 398 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: his story and his legend regarding his metaphysical life is 399 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: based in any sort of reality is difficult. At the 400 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: very best, he may have been nothing more than a 401 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: compulsive liar, spinning up tail after tail to cover his 402 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: humble or shameful past or to work his way into 403 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: high society. He was definitely well educated, able to speak 404 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: many languages, able to hold his own in conversation with 405 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: the highest rungs of society. He was definitely skilled as 406 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: a musician and a composer and a successful chemist. And 407 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: adding to the mythos surrounding the count is also a 408 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: little problem of names and conflation. First, the Count of Sangrement, 409 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: as we said, meant by went by many aliases during 410 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: his lifetime. And second, there were salon comedians in France 411 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: doing Sagrement parodies. Uh, And it's entirely likely that some 412 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: of the boasts that they made in jest eventually kind 413 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: of made their way into the legend and kind of 414 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: got confused over what was reality and what was comedy. Uh, 415 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: Because he was I mean as much as many people 416 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: were really blown away by him and thought he was 417 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: a amazing there were also people that were like, you, guys, 418 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: he's a charlatan. Yeah, and he became a joke too 419 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: many people. Yeah. Well, when when you gave me this 420 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: this outline and I was reading through it for the 421 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: first time, I was thinking, this sounds a whole lot 422 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: like Cassanova without the sex part, which I know, which 423 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: makes it really funny, because Cassanova just added to the confusion. 424 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: Not only would he sometimes impersonate the Count as a joke, 425 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: his autobiography includes this description of the man that's completely 426 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: counter to every other description of him by anyone else. Yeah, 427 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: and it's believed that that description, it like talks about 428 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: him wearing these long plain robes and stuff, just things 429 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: that had nothing to do with him. Uh. And it's 430 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: believed that was added by an editor, or that there 431 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,239 Speaker 1: was somewhere some sort of translation or trans But this 432 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: is believed to have been added by an editor or 433 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: somehow like lost a little bit in translation on the text, 434 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: or maybe cassan o it did it on purpose. Isn't 435 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: as possible. Uh. The sort of ironic comparison there is 436 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: that Unlike Cassanova, the Count of Sangrement was not associated 437 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: with sex at all. Really he had He's often described 438 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: as living a chaste life, so but he interesting counterpoints 439 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: to one another. He had. He had this weird con 440 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: artist globe trotter is right up Cassanova's alley. We can 441 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: get the two of them in the baron of Arizona together, 442 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: I think we would have a really spectacular historical meet 443 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: and greet. Uh. And there have also been other people 444 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: with the same title in history, uh, and sometimes their 445 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: stories have been accidentally mingled with this Count of Sagrement. 446 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: So his legend has gotten really nebulous and there aren't 447 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: any hard edges to it. It just kind of grows 448 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: and ebbs and flows. And there are historians who believe 449 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: that he really was a missing son of a of 450 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: Transylvanian royalty, and that there was some kind of secret 451 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: arrangement or signal that validated this with other royal which 452 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,239 Speaker 1: explained his ability to just mix so easily with all 453 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: the courts of Europe. Yeah, most uh, non noble born 454 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: people couldn't just stroll into like the court of France 455 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: and end up being BFFs with the king, but he 456 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: managed it no problem, and he you know, had contacts 457 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: all over the place. But uh, to make the historical 458 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: record and the story of Counts sentiment even trickier, there 459 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: have also been plenty of people willing to assert that 460 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: he lives on and they kind of want to believe 461 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: and that kind of you know, get fished into building 462 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: a mythos. He's not a time lord. No, although there 463 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: are people that have suspected that he was a time traveler. 464 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: I mean there are people that believe. I'm just gonna 465 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: go on the record and saying that that I do not. 466 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: And he was also allegedly sighted at a Masonic meeting 467 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: the year after his death, and it was just the 468 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: beginning of all these post mortem appearances. Yeah. Some will 469 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: even claim that he was actually once Sir Francis Bacon 470 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: and that he was either rejuvenated in some way or 471 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: he was reincarnated as the Count. Plenty of people throughout 472 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: the years have been really happy to use the nebulous 473 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: details of his life to kind of fill in missing 474 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle for their own gain. So he's 475 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: he's wound up in all kinds of occult books and 476 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: and crackpot theories. Yeah, and sometimes you know, he's cited 477 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: as having said things that he never said. But because 478 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: there's such a weird series of gaps in his record, 479 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: to will be like, oh no, this was in that 480 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: time when there isn't a lot, but I know I 481 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: have the text. Uh. And there have even been people 482 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: who have become convinced that they actually are the Count reincarnated, 483 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: or that they're channeling the deceased mystic. One of the 484 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: quotes that usually comes up in relation to his great 485 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: standing is Voltaire's line and a letter to Frederick the Great, 486 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: in which he calls the Count quote a man who 487 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: knows everything and who never died. Yeah, this gets brought 488 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: up all the time. People are like, no, this is 489 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: the man that Voltaire said this about. Okay, that sounds 490 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: really good, but it ignores the source because Voltaire was 491 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 1: known for his sarcasm, and it ignores the context because 492 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: in this same series of correspondence between uh, Voltaire and 493 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: Frederick the Great, Frederick refers to the Count as on 494 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: conte perrier, which translates literally to a story for laughing. 495 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: He's calling him a joke. Like these two are basically 496 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: kind of having a gossipy, what a train wreck discussion 497 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: about this guy, And so it's kind of quoted in 498 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: a way that I'm confident Voltaire never intended. And of 499 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: course there are people who think that he himself was 500 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: just deluded and believed all of these legends about himself 501 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: that had been circulating while he was alive. Yeah, I 502 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: mean we in the first thing that we read about him, uh, 503 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: in the Horaces letters, they say that he's mad. I mean, 504 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: lots of people describe him as a madman. So I 505 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: think there's, you know, some credence to that. One interesting 506 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: note that will kind of conclude with is that while 507 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: Sagrement uh was you know, he's described sometimes as boastful, 508 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,479 Speaker 1: but it seems like he was really pretty careful in 509 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: his conversations with people to never state outright any of 510 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: these extraordinary claims that are often attributed to him. He 511 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: would drop hints he was like a pro at conversation manipulation, 512 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: and he would never say he had an elixir of youth, 513 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: but he would just tell people he was very old, 514 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: and then mentioned that he had this lab and that 515 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: he worked on things, and then he would direct the 516 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: conversation elsewhere and people be like, oh, what is he hiding? 517 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: He he does have the elixir of life. He kind 518 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: of was really good at seating his own reputation, it seems, 519 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: which to me suggests the level of savvy that is 520 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: beyond what a deluded madman would be able to come 521 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: up with. But we'll never know for sure, and that's 522 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: just my conjecture on it. Yeah. So that is the 523 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: Count of Sagrement. And there are so many stories of 524 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: him in addition to those that we've relaid. Uh, you 525 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: could really lose many many days combing the internet for 526 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: various If you do a search on him, you'll get 527 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: a nice combo of historical reference and also believers, people 528 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: that really want to believe that he's out there somewhere theories. Yeah. Uh, 529 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: But the story of the Count. Do you have a 530 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: story of some listener mail? I do, uh. And this 531 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: particular piece of mail comes from our listener Lara, and 532 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: it is in reference to footbinding, and she talks about it, uh, 533 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: in relation to an event in her own grandmother's life. 534 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: She says, I wanted to write in response to the 535 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: recent show about footbinding. I was struck by similarities between 536 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: the experiences of the older Chinese women and my German 537 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: Mennonite grandmother. I've attached a photo of my grandmother and 538 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: grandfather on their wedding day, which is lovely. Uh. For 539 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: the to the nineteen sixties, Menonites war quote plain dress 540 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: cape dresses for women, and she explains that a cape 541 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: dress was a special dress with an extra piece of 542 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: cloth in the front to cover up the breasts and 543 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: a covering which was a lace head covering with bonnet strings, 544 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: and men wore plain coats, usually a dark colored coat 545 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: with a high neck. Dress was very much part of 546 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: church membership, and the bishops spent a lot of time 547 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: regulating dress, and women like my grandmother spent a lot 548 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: of time figuring out subversive ways to wear their coverings, 549 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: like letting the strings hang down their back rather than 550 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: putting them in the front, which was considered especially daring 551 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: for some reason. Lara does not know why, uh, and 552 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: she says, I'm not really trying to draw a comparison 553 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: between the permanently damaging tradition of footbinding and Mennonite Plaine dress, 554 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: but I think that the older Chinese women's ambiguous feeling 555 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: about the changing traditions was very similar to my grandmother's 556 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: mixed feelings about choosing to stop wearing plain clothes in 557 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties when other women burn their bras. Side 558 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: note from Tracy and I. There's some debate about whether 559 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: or not that actually happened. Most people say it did not. 560 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: There was more of a freedom trash can where bras went, 561 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: but just the same we wanted to acknowledge that as 562 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: not always being an accurate depiction of what was going on. 563 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: Some men and nite women, according to this letter of Lara's, Uh, 564 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: burned their coverings. My grandmother didn't burn her covering, but 565 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: she did stop wearing it. She once returned to her 566 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: home church, which is very conservative, and on Sunday morning, 567 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: the preacher preached a sermon especially about her and her 568 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,239 Speaker 1: lack of traditional dress. Uh. That's a really, you know, 569 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: fascinating insight. I mean, it's it's easy, I think when 570 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: you're kind of reading through it to go. Of course, 571 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: they this was their standard, and then they were told 572 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't the standard, and that's a difficult mental break. 573 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: But it's kind of a nice comparison to explain, like 574 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: this is another person who went through sort of a 575 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: similar thing as she says, it's not the same as 576 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: a disfiguring, you know, permanent thing, but it's like it 577 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: gets you question. Her grandmother questioned this her whole life. Hey, 578 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: since these episodes that were sharing our past classics, we 579 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: have some updated information that will super seed the contact 580 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: stuff you've heard before. If you want to email us, 581 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: our email address is History Podcast at house to Works 582 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: dot com, and you can find us across the spectrum 583 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: of social media as Missed in History. You can also 584 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: find us at missed in History dot com, and you 585 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: can visit our parent company, house to Works at how 586 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands 587 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: of other topics, visit how staff works dot com.