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Speaker 1: So why would a Texas town have to promise not

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Speaker 1: to boycott Israel if it wants aid for the costly

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Speaker 1: clean up of Hurricane Harvey. According to the Washington Post,

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Speaker 1: the city of Dickinson, Texas, is located about thirty miles

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Speaker 1: southeast of Houston, and it recently posted applications online for

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Speaker 1: relief grants. The city's website says, however, the application includes

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Speaker 1: a provision requiring applicants to promise not to boycott Israel.

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Speaker 1: Joining us to help sort this out is First Amendment

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Speaker 1: expert Eugene Black, professor at u c l A Law School,

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Speaker 1: Eugene explain this a little further. It seems like it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't fit. Oh right, So I think that it's

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Speaker 1: a bad idea to try to control what it is

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Speaker 1: that say, especially individuals who get various benefits due UH.

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Speaker 1: And but I don't think there's really a First Amendment

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Speaker 1: problem here. So Texas has a law that bars people

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Speaker 1: who engage in enter into contracts with Texas UH to

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Speaker 1: affirm that they are not boycotting Israel. Now, you can

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Speaker 1: agree or disagree with that law, but it's basically an

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Speaker 1: antidiscrimination law. It's like various laws that say that if

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Speaker 1: you want to get government funds, you can't discriminate based

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Speaker 1: on race, or religion or sex or something like that.

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Speaker 1: In this instance, it's uh, it's a band undiscrimination uh

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Speaker 1: based on as um I guess, national origin of a company.

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Speaker 1: So you can't discriminate against companies because they are in

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Speaker 1: Israel as they do business in Israel. You can agree

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Speaker 1: or disagree with that, but that's sort of a pretty

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Speaker 1: traditional or an extension of a pretty traditional antidiscrimination law.

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Speaker 1: Another way of thinking about it is imagine that a

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Speaker 1: business says, you know, we don't support Islam, so we're

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Speaker 1: gonna boycott Muslims. Well, that might itself actually violate the

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Speaker 1: law outright, but especially might violate various can asians attached

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Speaker 1: to grants. And the first of theement does not protect

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Speaker 1: your right to discriminate. Generally speaking, it may protect your

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Speaker 1: right to advocate discrimination, support discrimination, but not to actually discriminate,

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Speaker 1: whether based on religion or national origin of a person

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Speaker 1: or national origin of a company. What's troubling here, I

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Speaker 1: think is it looks like the city is applying it

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Speaker 1: not just to businesses but just ordinary people and trying

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Speaker 1: to control that and I don't think that would be proper,

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Speaker 1: whether it says to anti Israel discrimination or race discrimination.

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Speaker 1: If somebody is getting some hurricane relief funds, I don't

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Speaker 1: think you should matter to the city if this person

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Speaker 1: is a discriminating based on race in whom he invites

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Speaker 1: to dinner or even who which stores he buys at.

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Speaker 1: So I think the city may be taking things further

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Speaker 1: than it ought to, or maybe the state of Texas

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Speaker 1: is taking things further than it ought to. But that's

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Speaker 1: kind of the way I think the law would conceptualize

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Speaker 1: this no boycott condition. So Andre Segura, a c LU

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Speaker 1: of Texas legal direct or, told the Post the First

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Speaker 1: Amendment protects Americans right to boycott, and the government can't

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Speaker 1: condition hurricane relief for any of the public benefit on

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Speaker 1: a commitment to refrain from collected political expression. Dickinson requirement

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Speaker 1: is an egregious violation of the First Amendment, reminiscent of

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Speaker 1: McCarthy era loyalty oaths. So he's saying that they're stopping

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Speaker 1: them from being able to engage in the right to boycott.

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Speaker 1: Why isn't a free speech right. I think he's mistaken,

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Speaker 1: because again, I don't think there is a right to boycott.

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Speaker 1: Look at what's actually uh uh in the news often

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Speaker 1: uh you have people like Baker's or landlords or whatever

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Speaker 1: saying we want to boycott same sex weddings. We don't want.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they don't phrase it as boycott, but that's

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Speaker 1: essentially what they're doing. They're saying, if we do not

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Speaker 1: want our goods to be used in same sex weddings.

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Speaker 1: And well, I think that argument may actually work as

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Speaker 1: of people who create let's say, who print leaflets or

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Speaker 1: engage another protected speech. If what you're saying is I

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Speaker 1: want a boycott the same sex wedding by not renting

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Speaker 1: a building which is going to be used for that,

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Speaker 1: the answer is that violates anti discrimination law. Uh and

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Speaker 1: calling it a boycott doesn't change things. Now, there is

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Speaker 1: a First Amendment right to advocate for boycotts. There's a

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Speaker 1: famous case and Double Act v. Claiborne Hardware, where the

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Speaker 1: Double ECP was organizing a boycott by black citizens of

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Speaker 1: white owned businesses in Mississippi. But that boycott was itself

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Speaker 1: not illegal, and the Supreme Court said there's a First

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Speaker 1: Amendment right to advocate for the boycott which was itself

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Speaker 1: not illegal. I think that's the best way of reading

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Speaker 1: the double cpv. Claiborne Hardware case. I don't think it

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Speaker 1: stands for the proposition, although I know some people have

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Speaker 1: argued that it does. That you have a right to

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Speaker 1: just refuse to do business with people based on their

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Speaker 1: national origin or based on anything else. Again, anti discrimination

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Speaker 1: was routinely interfere with people's ability to boycott. If you

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Speaker 1: want to boycott same sex weddings or interracial weddings or Muslims,

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Speaker 1: you don't have the right to do that. Likewise, if

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Speaker 1: you want to boycott Israel, you don't have a First

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Speaker 1: Amendment right to do that, all right, thank you. Eugene

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Speaker 1: Black from u c l A Law School. He's a

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Speaker 1: professor there in a First Amendment expert