WEBVTT - The Handmaiden with Soyoung Chon 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:03.920 On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.520 women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:11.879 husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef In 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:17.959 best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Jamie Caitlin, 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.720 I just wanted to say thank you so much for 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.960 giving me a job as your handmaiden. Oh, your welcome, 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.440 And I just want to let you know I'm definitely 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.960 not trying to trick you and steal your fortune or 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.360 anything like that. Okay, well, I guess while we're on 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.040 the topic, I wanted to let you know that I'm 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.680 definitely not three steps ahead of you what with the trick, 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.639 and I'm tricking you based on your trick, and your 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.000 trick is actually a whole distraction. And it doesn't matter 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.840 because we're going to fall in love at the end. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.000 At the end, all the tricks cancel each other out 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.280 and it's uh, and we're gonna go on a boat. 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.480 I love that for us, Good for us. Yeah, I'm 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.400 gonna seem I'm gonna seem like I've never been outside. 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.200 But here's a twist. I have been outside a couple 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:13.680 of times. Okay, at least all right, well, I love 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.559 that we're learning so much about each other. We're in love. 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:22.199 What can you do? Hello, and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:27.000 Perfect intro as usual, amazing, we nailed it. My name 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.399 is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus. And this 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.800 is our podcast where we look at your favorite movies, 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:39.039 your least favorite movies, movies that you don't know how 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:44.000 to feel about, using an intersectional feminist lens. And we 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.959 use the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:51.280 to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test is 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.480 a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:02.080 called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it has many versions, 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.360 and the one that we are using these days, and 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.280 let's and and and we also have been finessing this formula. 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.960 We've been finessing our little, our little twist on it 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:17.480 for half a decade. At this point, it's true. The 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.800 metric that we are using. The caveats, if you will, 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:26.760 are that a movie has to have two characters of 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:31.840 any marginalized gender who have names. They must speak to 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:36.359 each other about something other than a man. And ideally 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:44.640 their conversation is meaningful, plot relevant, not just a throwaway 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.560 exchange of dialogue or maybe it's in the case of 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:54.399 this movie, a deceitful exchange. I love a good deceitful exchange. 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:59.079 You know what it's allowed. And then something that we 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.639 should bring up more often. Um, but it's especially relevant 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:07.200 for a movie like this is that the test originally 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.280 appearing in Alison Becktel's Decks to Watch out For. In 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:16.400 the context for that was that Alison Becktel's characters, who 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.920 are queer women, would watch movies and pay attention to 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.440 if the female characters in the movies they're watching speak 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.480 to each other, and if so, do they talk about 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.840 things besides a man? Because if so, then Alison Bechtel's 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:36.080 characters could ship them together and pretend that they were 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.840 lesbians in the movie that they're watching. So that is 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:44.440 the origins of the Bechtel test, speaking to the piss 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.360 poor representation of any queer people in movies at the 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.400 time the comic was published back in A five right, 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:57.720 and then for a movie like this, no shipping required 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.680 because the care actors do that for you. It's cannon. Yes, 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.520 So the movie that we're talking about today is The Handmaiden, 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.760 and we have a guest joining us. She's a pal 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:17.479 of ours. She's a cyber security engineer. It's so young 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:21.240 chan Hi. Hello, welcome, Thank you for having me, thanks 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.160 for being here, for being here. So we're interested in 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:30.599 what is your relationship, your history, your general impression of 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:35.440 The Handmaiden. Um. Yeah, I thought it was pretty wild 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:40.520 from start to finish. Um. These types of movies don't 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.800 don't really come out that much from South Korea because 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.279 Korea is a pretty conservative country still, so this was 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.320 a big shock when it came out featuring two lesbian 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:55.120 women and that that never that never happens. But I 0:04:55.200 --> 0:05:00.719 thought it was overall really really good, really new and 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.280 groundbreaking for Korea. So that's what I thought. It was 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.160 pretty cool. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait to talk about 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.160 it more. Jamie, what about you. I hadn't seen this 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:16.280 movie yet, and it rocked my world. I really like 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:18.320 movies that really keep you on your toes like this 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.200 where I guess if you haven't seen this movie, I 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.520 would recommend honestly watching it because listening to us, like 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.960 some movies, I feel fine spoiling for our listeners, but 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.839 this movie. I'm so glad I didn't know any of 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.000 the twists going in, because sometimes I'll go into a 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.520 movie being like I've seen I've seen it all, and 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.120 then it turns out, guess what. I like half of 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.600 my notes from the first half of the movie, I 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.279 had to like highlight being like just kidding, I am, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:51.960 I am the fool, Like they got my ass. It's 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.600 so tightly written, and I just, yeah, this was my 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.560 my first time. I've seen it twice. I feel like 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.040 this is a movie that really delivers on a rewatch 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.200 and I just really enjoyed it. Holy holy shit. I 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.480 am just not as smart as this movie. I'm not 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.120 operating on this level. And it was a pleasure to 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.440 be in a world where I was like, oh, yeah, 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:18.400 I would have Um, I don't know what would have 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.160 happened to be if I existed in this world. I 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.560 would have I would have just died because everyone is 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.799 operating like everyone's playing four D h S the entire movie. 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:30.599 It's wonderful. Yeah, Caitlyn, what's your history of this movie? O? 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.680 G whiz. I saw it not right when it came out, 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.760 but I remember there being buzz around it because it 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.080 was released in the US sometime I think in the 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:44.600 back half of and then it won the Oscar for 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:49.000 Best Movie not in the English language. Yeah, for like 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:52.920 the Oscars. So I was like, oh, all right, got 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.520 to see it. Exciting. So I was still getting Netflix 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.520 devids at the time, so I took it upon myself 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:05.200 to borrow rent or whatever have Netflix send me a DVD. 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.000 And I don't normally do this, but I watched the 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.040 movie and then as soon as it was over, I 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:16.320 immediately watched it again because I was like, WHOA, holy shit. 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:18.760 I don't even want to process that. I just want 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.720 to like rewatch it and just have a better understanding 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.720 of what happened, because, like you said, there's so many twists, 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.480 there's so many layers there's and so I've seen the 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.160 movie I think like six or seven times now, and 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.600 every time I watch it, I discover something new or 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.480 like notice like a new little clue, or like a 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.640 bit of foreshadowing or some like plant and payoff, or 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.400 just like some detail that I had overlooked before. So yeah, 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.600 it definitely holds up on a rewatch. The twists are 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.160 so intricate that or like some of the reveals are 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.600 just like I won't remember what happened, so like, every 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:01.960 time rewatch it, it's like I'm seeing it for the 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.320 first time. So I'm just like, whoa, And it's it's 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.920 beautiful to look at. It's mesmerizing. Yeah, the story is 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:14.480 so tightly written. I love this movie so and the 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:19.119 history behind the movie is also really interesting. I didn't 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.560 know about like all the adaptation stuff going on in 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.120 this movie, so I'm very excited to talk about it. Yeah. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.520 I also, in preparation for this episode, watched the BBC 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:36.719 like two episode mini series Fingersmith. She's okay, yes, well, 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.280 then I was also like, Sally Hawkins is in this. 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.480 Paddington's mom is in this. Obviously I have to watch it. 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:44.920 See I always think of Sally Hawkins. I'm about to 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.880 sound like I hate women. I'm like, she's the lady 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.840 who had sex with the fish in the movie. I 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.920 know that lady, but that was reductive and I apologize, 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:57.920 but she did have sex with a fish. I mean, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.240 you're not wrong, I'm not, but I should remember the 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:06.040 character's name. I just know it was Sally Hawkins. Well, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:11.680 she's definitely Mrs Brown in the Paddington franchise, so I 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.679 did watch Fingersmith, and um, do you like it? I 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:20.120 did it, So just some context for anyone who's um 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.360 not aware. This movie is based on a novel called 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.320 Fingersmith by Sarah Waters that was published in two two 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.160 I think so obviously we did not read the book 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.720 because we famously on this podcast do not read books. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.040 It probably won't to stop people from getting mad at 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.480 us for not reading a book, but listen, the show 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.520 is free. I don't know what to tell you, but 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.559 I did watch this adaptation and probably like the second 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:54.080 half of Fingersmith is pretty wildly different from the second 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:59.560 half of The Handmaiden, where I like the ending of 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.920 the hand Made In way better. And I don't know 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.120 if that's just because like I saw it first and 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.320 my brain just works that way, where I'm like, well, 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.079 the first thing I saw is the thing that I 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.079 like better because it happens all the time with me. 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.240 But uh, I don't know. I feel that it gives 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.760 the characters more agency. Yeah, I I like the handmade 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.400 in better. I like the narrative choices that were made there. 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.200 So yeah, it's a It's the rare movie where I 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:29.720 feel like we're constantly complaining about how movies are. Movies 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.719 are long, but this movie is two and a half 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.160 hours long, and it does not feel two and a 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:40.160 half hours long, which is incredible a miracle. Yeah, should 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.640 I get into the recap? Yeah, yeah, let's let's do it. 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.439 And so I feel free to jump in at any time. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:53.760 It's a free for all. Absolutely, thank you. Okay. So 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.720 the story takes place in Japanese occupied Korea, so both 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.679 Korean and Japan These are spoken by almost every major 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:07.880 character throughout the movie. I believe we are in the thirties, 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.840 although the decade wasn't super clear, but I read in 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.600 interviews that, yeah, it's supposed to be the thirties. Okay. Cool. 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.640 The story is divided into three parts. Part one, we 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:27.000 meet Suki, a pickpocket, a forger. She's like a common thief. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.480 We also meet a Korean man from a low class 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:36.280 who is masquerading as a Japanese nobleman. He's going by 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.600 the name Count Fujiwara. I kept calling him Count all 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.800 off in my head because anytime someone introduces themselves as account, 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.240 I was like, okay, all counts are con men. This 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.640 is a trend in media. All accounts are lying about 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.840 being a count and they're where they're always wearing a 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:57.280 hat and um lying, that's my knowledge accounts and I 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:02.040 think that's canon. Yeah, this Ivan does this count challenge 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:08.280 that he does not, it's true. So he helps Suki 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.920 get a job as a handmaiden to Lady Hitigo, and 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.480 he does this because he intends to seduce Lady Hitiko, 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:20.839 marry her, put her in like quote, a madhouse so 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.439 that he can steal her fortune, and he needs Suki's 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.720 help to do all this. So Suki, using a fake name, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:35.240 meets Lady Hideko and starts tending to her. She spends 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.080 most of her days helping her uncle Kazuki with his 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.240 rare books, which he collects and sells, and then he 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.000 also hosts private events where Hitiko does readings from the 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:52.920 books for rich Japanese gentleman rights. And the meaning of 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:59.000 rare books is really stretched and challenged later in Yes, 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.440 her uncle is It becomes apparent pretty early on, and 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.640 then even more apparent later on that he is extremely 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.439 creepy and he's also trying to marry how to go 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:15.360 to get access to her fortune also something that count 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.760 all offs trying to do all the time, just a 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:24.560 lot of count connections here? Oh my god? Right, counts 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.440 are always trying to marry people under false pretenses to 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.640 get access to a fortune. I need to write a 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.720 think piece about this. Doesn't count all off pretend to 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.720 be those children's uncle too, or some family member. He 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.640 pretends to be a distant relative in order to adopt them. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.400 I mean, I didn't, I didn't even put that together. 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.040 If anyone ever introduces them as a count, walk away, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.440 they're lying. What's the story of the count of Money 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.400 Monte Crystal? Oh? I know I saw that movie, but 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.280 no idea. I feel like there's some deception involved there 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:08.560 as well. Is okay, this is not the Count of 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.960 Monte Cristo. Is that related to the sandwich? Or is 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:18.959 the sandwich a separate thing? Monte Cristo sandwich? Is Monte 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:23.000 Cristo a place? Um? I think they're also. I was 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.240 just born this morning. I think they're all extremely not 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.480 only connected, but identical. What is even in a Monte 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.040 Cristo sandwich? You know what I'm that's one where they 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.840 like there's ham and there's cheese, and you're like panini 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.800 it and then there's like powdered sugar on top. There's 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.880 always such a scam. When someone makes a very simple 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.720 sandwich sounds extremely fancy and they're like, it's it's like 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.480 Monte Cristo at seventeen dollars, and then you get it. 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:57.120 You're like, this is ham and cheese. How dare you anyway? 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.760 Speaking of the Count, yes, he gets to work on 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:09.040 seducing Lady Hideko under the guise of giving her painting lessons. Meanwhile, 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:14.480 Suki and Heideko are getting closer and they are clearly 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.800 attracted to each other. And the further into the scam 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:23.360 Suki gets of like helping the fake Count Mary hidego, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.160 the more Suki wants to back out, especially after one 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.800 night when Lady Hideko wants Suki to teach her how 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.400 to kiss so that she will be ready to kiss 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:40.480 the Count, and then they end up having very steamy sex. 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.040 Suki has no choice but to keep going along with 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:49.360 the scam, and the two of them run away. They 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.680 travel with the Count to Japan, the Count Mary's Hideko, 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.400 and then he and Suki take Hideko to be institutionalized. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.360 But wait a minute, turns out it the Count and 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.680 Hiteko had been the ones who were tricking Suki and 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:10.320 they send Suki to the institution. I gasped right when 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.360 edeko uh. At first, I was like, what is going on? 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.960 Because she hugs Suki and then she walks backward really quickly, 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.400 and I was like, what is happening? And then it 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:25.120 was the twist. But wait, there's more. There's more. There's 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.280 two more parts. So this is the beginning of part two. 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.240 We learned what the real situation is with Lady Hiteko. 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:36.400 She's not this like virginal, naive lady that we all 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.880 thought she was. The books of her uncle's that she 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:44.920 does readings for our very pornographic something that he's been 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.600 training her to do ever since she was a child, 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:54.640 which is what disgusting. Yeah, and this is like, this 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.520 is something he's done with like other members of the family, 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:01.160 to like with her aunt as well. Yeah, it's a 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.600 whole thing. Yes, So when the Count first meets her, 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.360 he realizes that he would never be able to seduce her, 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.800 so then he forms a different plan, which is to 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.760 collaborate with her, take her away from this place and 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.760 set her free, and then they will split her fortune. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.160 And then it's her idea to find a handmaiden and 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:26.320 send her to the institution under her name. So then 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.000 a lot of the same story beats play out that 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.280 we've seen before, but this time through hiokos point of view, 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:38.400 with like Suki arriving and tending to her and convincing 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.639 her that she's in love with the count. But then eventually, 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.119 because Hitiko and Suki are falling in love, Hiteko also 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.360 wants to back out of the plan right and then 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.879 finally the two of them reveal to each other that 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.960 they have been tricking each other. So seen is so 0:17:55.280 --> 0:18:00.080 good but scary but good. Where Lady hit the I 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.919 goes about to take her own life. She's about to 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.760 hang herself, and then Suki catches her, and everyone watching 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:09.960 the scene has an anxiety attack of like, I hope 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.280 that she has strong arms, uh, and this whole scene 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:19.040 have it's It's really good. These two actors together are 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.800 incredible for sure. So now their new plan is to 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.480 team up with each other against Count Fujiwara, and then 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.440 right before they're about to run away, they also destroy 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:36.879 the Uncle's treasured book collection as basically a like fuck 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:42.399 you dude gesture, and then we realize that when Suki 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.600 is taken to the institution. It's all part of the plan. 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.879 So then part three is Suki escapes from the institution 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.800 by lighting it on fire. I was slightly confused about 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:57.919 the logistics, but by that point in the movie I 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.080 was like, Yeah, sure, she liked it on fire. I 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:06.680 believe it. Meanwhile, Hitiko drugs the Count, escapes and meets 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.320 up with Suki. They flee and get on a ferry 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.240 to Shanghai. And then the Count has been captured and 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.760 brought back to the uncle's estate where the uncle tortures him. 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.159 And then the Count smokes a couple of cigarettes laced 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:24.320 with mercury, which poisons the air and kills both the men, 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.520 and then we cut back to the ferry where Suki 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:33.199 and Hitiko have more steamy sex. And that's how the 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:38.000 movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:48.639 we will come back to discuss. And we're back, where 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.840 do we Caitlin, I'm genuinely curious just to start, what 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:57.200 is different about the ending of the BBC adaptation, because 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:02.240 I know that the largest adaptation change is obviously changing 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.639 the setting and the I think the time period was 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.480 shifted as well. I think it's a Victorian England to 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.720 nineteen thirties Japan and Korea. But what what is different 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.760 about like the plot points of the ending. So yeah, 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:19.320 the first half plays out basically the same, but in 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.760 Fingersmith the two women never collaborate. They never say, oh, 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.480 you're tricking me, I was tricking you. Wow, Let's team 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:32.920 up together and take down these male oppressors. That does 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:37.480 not happen. Instead, the handmade in character ends up in 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.760 the institution and then stays there for a while, does 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:47.159 still escape. Meanwhile, the lady character like is taken to 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.160 London after this marriage, and she keeps trying to escape 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.400 and they're like, no, we still have to get your 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:57.240 fortune from you. Uh. So she eventually is able to 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.800 run away and goes to one of like the book 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.119 collectors that her uncle knows, but then he turns her away, 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.720 so she has to go back to the home base 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.080 of all the like the Thief House, basically in London, which, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.560 by the way, the sort of like matron character is 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.639 played by Amelda Staunton, who is of course Aunt Lucy 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:25.679 from Paddington's Okay I'm with Yes, So there's a lot 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:33.200 of Paddington connections in Fingersmith. So and then that like 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:40.280 matriarch character is like, hey, royal lady person, by the way, 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:45.000 you were switched at birth with this handmaiden lady, and 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.359 so she's the actual lady, and you're I think maybe 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.160 I'm getting that totally wrong because things got also very 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:55.560 confusing at that part. The handmaiden is better. Yeah what 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.920 I'm hearing right, Yeah, So there's some like switched at 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:03.240 birth scandal can't introduce switched at birth at the end 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.880 this fourth grade. And then so the count guy who 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:12.400 they call whose name is like the gentleman in Fingersmith, 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:17.320 comes around at some point and gets murdered by unclear 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.000 which person it was. It was either like the lady 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.680 or the Amelda Stanton character, but Amelti Stans character takes 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.160 the blame for it, and then she is hanged. So 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.920 that sort of now that all these people are dead, 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:35.520 she goes back to her like estate with all the books, 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.200 and then Sally Hawk like the handmaid and character comes 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:43.240 back and they sort of like reconcile. So the huge 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.840 difference is that there's never a team up. There's never 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:50.359 like a co conspirator like let's take the men down 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.080 kind of thing. They just sort of like have to 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:58.200 forgive each other, and then there's some like class stuff 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.199 of like you're not who you think you are, and 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:06.840 it's also kind of confusing. So that's Fingersmith. It sounds interesting, 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:12.520 but long I like this better. Yeah, okay, well, thank you, 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:16.600 thank you for thank you for sharing that. I I 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:22.160 wasn't aware how how much the source material deviated from 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:26.080 this adaptation. Yeah, it's pretty significant. Or I mean again, 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:28.720 because we haven't read the book. Who who knows what 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:33.320 happens there? Who knows how much that BBC adapt adaptation 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.719 deviated from the original source material. But The Handmaiden is 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.520 pretty drastically different in the second half of it from 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:46.080 Fingersmith the BBC series, UM got it? Yeah, so yeah. 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:49.280 And because of that, one of the things I like 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.439 about this movie so much is that it's a story 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:58.200 about men trying to exploit women and pit women against 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:02.679 each other, which doesn't work because the women talk to 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:06.800 each other and then they're like, wait a minute, these 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.240 men are trying to suck us over, so they instead 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:14.600 team up and punish. They're like again the male oppressors, 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:18.600 and then they get together and they live happily ever after. God, 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:22.760 I hope so or at least happily on the ferry, 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:29.440 they at least have an amazing cruise. So as you 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.520 started to talk about So Young in terms of like 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:38.000 this being a pretty groundbreaking film for South Korean cinema, 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:42.199 in terms of it's like queer representation, Yeah, just curious 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:46.120 if you have any other thoughts on that or yeah, 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.240 because you know, queer representation, it's just it's not there's 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.040 not a lot in Korean media and stuff like that, 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:56.000 even in you know, songs and stuff, and while it's 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:59.040 still while it's changing and people are becoming a lot 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:02.960 more open to it, it's still not on the forefront 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:05.400 like it is in America or you know, other countries. 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:08.560 So this was a you know, this was a pretty 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:12.280 big deal for not even it's not even like two 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:14.760 gay men, because that would have been still more something 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:18.520 that you would see, but to two women that that 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:21.320 is unheard of. So this was, Yeah, this was pretty 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:25.120 groundbreaking in that way, and I appreciate it. I saw, 0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:29.280 like I guess, mixed reception of of the sex scenes 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:32.360 and how they were filmed and framed, and I'm interested 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.520 to talk about that as well. But I did appreciate that, like, 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:40.280 this movie is not shy at all about what it's 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:44.800 about and about this like intense sexual connection that these 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:47.320 two women have, because I feel like we I mean, 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:51.000 even in covering other movies on this podcast, you know, 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:54.680 very often when there is a relationship between two women, 0:25:54.800 --> 0:25:58.040 you get a fade to black situation or you you 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:02.480 don't get the sex scene that appears in many PG 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:05.639 thirteen movies between a man and a woman. And so 0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:09.040 I was, yeah, pleasantly surprised to see. I was like, oh, 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:14.879 we're we're getting sex scenes. That's exciting. I'm very pro sex, 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:19.960 especially like and this would have been more common in 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:23.959 at least like older American movies. But I just remember 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:27.920 that episode that we did on Fried Green Tomatoes where 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:31.720 the source material like more explicitly makes it clear that 0:26:31.840 --> 0:26:35.000 the characters are queer. But then the movie, because it's 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:39.160 like a movie from the nineties, not even suggests it. 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:43.440 It's just like they're friends. They're friends who don't kiss 0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:45.880 each other like they're friends, and they lived together for 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:53.040