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Speaker 1: On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef In

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Jamie Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to say thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: giving me a job as your handmaiden. Oh, your welcome,

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Speaker 1: And I just want to let you know I'm definitely

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Speaker 1: not trying to trick you and steal your fortune or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. Okay, well, I guess while we're on

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Speaker 1: the topic, I wanted to let you know that I'm

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Speaker 1: definitely not three steps ahead of you what with the trick,

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Speaker 1: and I'm tricking you based on your trick, and your

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Speaker 1: trick is actually a whole distraction. And it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: because we're going to fall in love at the end.

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Speaker 1: At the end, all the tricks cancel each other out

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Speaker 1: and it's uh, and we're gonna go on a boat.

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Speaker 1: I love that for us, Good for us. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna seem I'm gonna seem like I've never been outside.

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Speaker 1: But here's a twist. I have been outside a couple

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Speaker 1: of times. Okay, at least all right, well, I love

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Speaker 1: that we're learning so much about each other. We're in love.

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Speaker 1: What can you do? Hello, and welcome to the Bechtel Cast.

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Speaker 1: Perfect intro as usual, amazing, we nailed it. My name

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Speaker 1: is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus. And this

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Speaker 1: is our podcast where we look at your favorite movies,

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Speaker 1: your least favorite movies, movies that you don't know how

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Speaker 1: to feel about, using an intersectional feminist lens. And we

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Speaker 1: use the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point

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Speaker 1: to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test is

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Speaker 1: a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes

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Speaker 1: called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it has many versions,

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Speaker 1: and the one that we are using these days, and

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Speaker 1: let's and and and we also have been finessing this formula.

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Speaker 1: We've been finessing our little, our little twist on it

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Speaker 1: for half a decade. At this point, it's true. The

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Speaker 1: metric that we are using. The caveats, if you will,

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Speaker 1: are that a movie has to have two characters of

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Speaker 1: any marginalized gender who have names. They must speak to

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Speaker 1: each other about something other than a man. And ideally

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Speaker 1: their conversation is meaningful, plot relevant, not just a throwaway

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Speaker 1: exchange of dialogue or maybe it's in the case of

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Speaker 1: this movie, a deceitful exchange. I love a good deceitful exchange.

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Speaker 1: You know what it's allowed. And then something that we

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Speaker 1: should bring up more often. Um, but it's especially relevant

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Speaker 1: for a movie like this is that the test originally

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Speaker 1: appearing in Alison Becktel's Decks to Watch out For. In

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Speaker 1: the context for that was that Alison Becktel's characters, who

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Speaker 1: are queer women, would watch movies and pay attention to

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Speaker 1: if the female characters in the movies they're watching speak

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Speaker 1: to each other, and if so, do they talk about

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Speaker 1: things besides a man? Because if so, then Alison Bechtel's

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Speaker 1: characters could ship them together and pretend that they were

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Speaker 1: lesbians in the movie that they're watching. So that is

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Speaker 1: the origins of the Bechtel test, speaking to the piss

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Speaker 1: poor representation of any queer people in movies at the

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Speaker 1: time the comic was published back in A five right,

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Speaker 1: and then for a movie like this, no shipping required

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Speaker 1: because the care actors do that for you. It's cannon. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So the movie that we're talking about today is The Handmaiden,

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Speaker 1: and we have a guest joining us. She's a pal

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Speaker 1: of ours. She's a cyber security engineer. It's so young

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Speaker 1: chan Hi. Hello, welcome, Thank you for having me, thanks

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Speaker 1: for being here, for being here. So we're interested in

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Speaker 1: what is your relationship, your history, your general impression of

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Speaker 1: The Handmaiden. Um. Yeah, I thought it was pretty wild

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Speaker 1: from start to finish. Um. These types of movies don't

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Speaker 1: don't really come out that much from South Korea because

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Speaker 1: Korea is a pretty conservative country still, so this was

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Speaker 1: a big shock when it came out featuring two lesbian

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Speaker 1: women and that that never that never happens. But I

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Speaker 1: thought it was overall really really good, really new and

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking for Korea. So that's what I thought. It was

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Speaker 1: pretty cool. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait to talk about

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Speaker 1: it more. Jamie, what about you. I hadn't seen this

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Speaker 1: movie yet, and it rocked my world. I really like

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Speaker 1: movies that really keep you on your toes like this

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Speaker 1: where I guess if you haven't seen this movie, I

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Speaker 1: would recommend honestly watching it because listening to us, like

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Speaker 1: some movies, I feel fine spoiling for our listeners, but

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Speaker 1: this movie. I'm so glad I didn't know any of

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Speaker 1: the twists going in, because sometimes I'll go into a

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Speaker 1: movie being like I've seen I've seen it all, and

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Speaker 1: then it turns out, guess what. I like half of

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Speaker 1: my notes from the first half of the movie, I

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Speaker 1: had to like highlight being like just kidding, I am,

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Speaker 1: I am the fool, Like they got my ass. It's

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Speaker 1: so tightly written, and I just, yeah, this was my

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Speaker 1: my first time. I've seen it twice. I feel like

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Speaker 1: this is a movie that really delivers on a rewatch

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Speaker 1: and I just really enjoyed it. Holy holy shit. I

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Speaker 1: am just not as smart as this movie. I'm not

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Speaker 1: operating on this level. And it was a pleasure to

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Speaker 1: be in a world where I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would have Um, I don't know what would have

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Speaker 1: happened to be if I existed in this world. I

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Speaker 1: would have I would have just died because everyone is

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Speaker 1: operating like everyone's playing four D h S the entire movie.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful. Yeah, Caitlyn, what's your history of this movie? O?

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Speaker 1: G whiz. I saw it not right when it came out,

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Speaker 1: but I remember there being buzz around it because it

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Speaker 1: was released in the US sometime I think in the

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Speaker 1: back half of and then it won the Oscar for

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Speaker 1: Best Movie not in the English language. Yeah, for like

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Speaker 1: the Oscars. So I was like, oh, all right, got

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Speaker 1: to see it. Exciting. So I was still getting Netflix

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Speaker 1: devids at the time, so I took it upon myself

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Speaker 1: to borrow rent or whatever have Netflix send me a DVD.

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Speaker 1: And I don't normally do this, but I watched the

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Speaker 1: movie and then as soon as it was over, I

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Speaker 1: immediately watched it again because I was like, WHOA, holy shit.

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Speaker 1: I don't even want to process that. I just want

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Speaker 1: to like rewatch it and just have a better understanding

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Speaker 1: of what happened, because, like you said, there's so many twists,

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Speaker 1: there's so many layers there's and so I've seen the

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Speaker 1: movie I think like six or seven times now, and

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Speaker 1: every time I watch it, I discover something new or

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Speaker 1: like notice like a new little clue, or like a

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Speaker 1: bit of foreshadowing or some like plant and payoff, or

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Speaker 1: just like some detail that I had overlooked before. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it definitely holds up on a rewatch. The twists are

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Speaker 1: so intricate that or like some of the reveals are

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Speaker 1: just like I won't remember what happened, so like, every

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Speaker 1: time rewatch it, it's like I'm seeing it for the

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Speaker 1: first time. So I'm just like, whoa, And it's it's

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Speaker 1: beautiful to look at. It's mesmerizing. Yeah, the story is

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Speaker 1: so tightly written. I love this movie so and the

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Speaker 1: history behind the movie is also really interesting. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know about like all the adaptation stuff going on in

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Speaker 1: this movie, so I'm very excited to talk about it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also, in preparation for this episode, watched the BBC

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Speaker 1: like two episode mini series Fingersmith. She's okay, yes, well,

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Speaker 1: then I was also like, Sally Hawkins is in this.

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Speaker 1: Paddington's mom is in this. Obviously I have to watch it.

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Speaker 1: See I always think of Sally Hawkins. I'm about to

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Speaker 1: sound like I hate women. I'm like, she's the lady

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Speaker 1: who had sex with the fish in the movie. I

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Speaker 1: know that lady, but that was reductive and I apologize,

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Speaker 1: but she did have sex with a fish. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're not wrong, I'm not, but I should remember the

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Speaker 1: character's name. I just know it was Sally Hawkins. Well,

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Speaker 1: she's definitely Mrs Brown in the Paddington franchise, so I

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Speaker 1: did watch Fingersmith, and um, do you like it? I

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Speaker 1: did it, So just some context for anyone who's um

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Speaker 1: not aware. This movie is based on a novel called

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Speaker 1: Fingersmith by Sarah Waters that was published in two two

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Speaker 1: I think so obviously we did not read the book

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Speaker 1: because we famously on this podcast do not read books.

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Speaker 1: It probably won't to stop people from getting mad at

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Speaker 1: us for not reading a book, but listen, the show

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Speaker 1: is free. I don't know what to tell you, but

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Speaker 1: I did watch this adaptation and probably like the second

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Speaker 1: half of Fingersmith is pretty wildly different from the second

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Speaker 1: half of The Handmaiden, where I like the ending of

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Speaker 1: the hand Made In way better. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's just because like I saw it first and

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Speaker 1: my brain just works that way, where I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: the first thing I saw is the thing that I

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Speaker 1: like better because it happens all the time with me.

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Speaker 1: But uh, I don't know. I feel that it gives

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Speaker 1: the characters more agency. Yeah, I I like the handmade

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Speaker 1: in better. I like the narrative choices that were made there.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a It's the rare movie where I

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Speaker 1: feel like we're constantly complaining about how movies are. Movies

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Speaker 1: are long, but this movie is two and a half

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Speaker 1: hours long, and it does not feel two and a

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Speaker 1: half hours long, which is incredible a miracle. Yeah, should

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Speaker 1: I get into the recap? Yeah, yeah, let's let's do it.

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Speaker 1: And so I feel free to jump in at any time.

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Speaker 1: It's a free for all. Absolutely, thank you. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: the story takes place in Japanese occupied Korea, so both

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Speaker 1: Korean and Japan These are spoken by almost every major

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Speaker 1: character throughout the movie. I believe we are in the thirties,

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Speaker 1: although the decade wasn't super clear, but I read in

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Speaker 1: interviews that, yeah, it's supposed to be the thirties. Okay. Cool.

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Speaker 1: The story is divided into three parts. Part one, we

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Speaker 1: meet Suki, a pickpocket, a forger. She's like a common thief.

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Speaker 1: We also meet a Korean man from a low class

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Speaker 1: who is masquerading as a Japanese nobleman. He's going by

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Speaker 1: the name Count Fujiwara. I kept calling him Count all

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Speaker 1: off in my head because anytime someone introduces themselves as account,

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, all counts are con men. This

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Speaker 1: is a trend in media. All accounts are lying about

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Speaker 1: being a count and they're where they're always wearing a

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Speaker 1: hat and um lying, that's my knowledge accounts and I

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Speaker 1: think that's canon. Yeah, this Ivan does this count challenge

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Speaker 1: that he does not, it's true. So he helps Suki

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Speaker 1: get a job as a handmaiden to Lady Hitigo, and

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Speaker 1: he does this because he intends to seduce Lady Hitiko,

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Speaker 1: marry her, put her in like quote, a madhouse so

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Speaker 1: that he can steal her fortune, and he needs Suki's

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Speaker 1: help to do all this. So Suki, using a fake name,

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Speaker 1: meets Lady Hideko and starts tending to her. She spends

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Speaker 1: most of her days helping her uncle Kazuki with his

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Speaker 1: rare books, which he collects and sells, and then he

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Speaker 1: also hosts private events where Hitiko does readings from the

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Speaker 1: books for rich Japanese gentleman rights. And the meaning of

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Speaker 1: rare books is really stretched and challenged later in Yes,

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Speaker 1: her uncle is It becomes apparent pretty early on, and

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Speaker 1: then even more apparent later on that he is extremely

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Speaker 1: creepy and he's also trying to marry how to go

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Speaker 1: to get access to her fortune also something that count

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Speaker 1: all offs trying to do all the time, just a

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Speaker 1: lot of count connections here? Oh my god? Right, counts

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Speaker 1: are always trying to marry people under false pretenses to

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Speaker 1: get access to a fortune. I need to write a

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Speaker 1: think piece about this. Doesn't count all off pretend to

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Speaker 1: be those children's uncle too, or some family member. He

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Speaker 1: pretends to be a distant relative in order to adopt them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't, I didn't even put that together.

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Speaker 1: If anyone ever introduces them as a count, walk away,

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Speaker 1: they're lying. What's the story of the count of Money

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Speaker 1: Monte Crystal? Oh? I know I saw that movie, but

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Speaker 1: no idea. I feel like there's some deception involved there

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Speaker 1: as well. Is okay, this is not the Count of

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Speaker 1: Monte Cristo. Is that related to the sandwich? Or is

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Speaker 1: the sandwich a separate thing? Monte Cristo sandwich? Is Monte

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Speaker 1: Cristo a place? Um? I think they're also. I was

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Speaker 1: just born this morning. I think they're all extremely not

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Speaker 1: only connected, but identical. What is even in a Monte

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Speaker 1: Cristo sandwich? You know what I'm that's one where they

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Speaker 1: like there's ham and there's cheese, and you're like panini

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Speaker 1: it and then there's like powdered sugar on top. There's

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Speaker 1: always such a scam. When someone makes a very simple

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Speaker 1: sandwich sounds extremely fancy and they're like, it's it's like

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Speaker 1: Monte Cristo at seventeen dollars, and then you get it.

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Speaker 1: You're like, this is ham and cheese. How dare you anyway?

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Speaker 1: Speaking of the Count, yes, he gets to work on

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Speaker 1: seducing Lady Hideko under the guise of giving her painting lessons. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Suki and Heideko are getting closer and they are clearly

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Speaker 1: attracted to each other. And the further into the scam

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Speaker 1: Suki gets of like helping the fake Count Mary hidego,

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Speaker 1: the more Suki wants to back out, especially after one

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Speaker 1: night when Lady Hideko wants Suki to teach her how

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Speaker 1: to kiss so that she will be ready to kiss

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Speaker 1: the Count, and then they end up having very steamy sex.

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Speaker 1: Suki has no choice but to keep going along with

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Speaker 1: the scam, and the two of them run away. They

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Speaker 1: travel with the Count to Japan, the Count Mary's Hideko,

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Speaker 1: and then he and Suki take Hideko to be institutionalized.

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Speaker 1: But wait a minute, turns out it the Count and

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Speaker 1: Hiteko had been the ones who were tricking Suki and

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Speaker 1: they send Suki to the institution. I gasped right when

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Speaker 1: edeko uh. At first, I was like, what is going on?

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Speaker 1: Because she hugs Suki and then she walks backward really quickly,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, what is happening? And then it

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Speaker 1: was the twist. But wait, there's more. There's more. There's

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Speaker 1: two more parts. So this is the beginning of part two.

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Speaker 1: We learned what the real situation is with Lady Hiteko.

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Speaker 1: She's not this like virginal, naive lady that we all

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Speaker 1: thought she was. The books of her uncle's that she

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Speaker 1: does readings for our very pornographic something that he's been

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Speaker 1: training her to do ever since she was a child,

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Speaker 1: which is what disgusting. Yeah, and this is like, this

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Speaker 1: is something he's done with like other members of the family,

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Speaker 1: to like with her aunt as well. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: whole thing. Yes, So when the Count first meets her,

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Speaker 1: he realizes that he would never be able to seduce her,

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Speaker 1: so then he forms a different plan, which is to

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Speaker 1: collaborate with her, take her away from this place and

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Speaker 1: set her free, and then they will split her fortune.

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Speaker 1: And then it's her idea to find a handmaiden and

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Speaker 1: send her to the institution under her name. So then

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Speaker 1: a lot of the same story beats play out that

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Speaker 1: we've seen before, but this time through hiokos point of view,

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Speaker 1: with like Suki arriving and tending to her and convincing

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Speaker 1: her that she's in love with the count. But then eventually,

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Speaker 1: because Hitiko and Suki are falling in love, Hiteko also

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Speaker 1: wants to back out of the plan right and then

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Speaker 1: finally the two of them reveal to each other that

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Speaker 1: they have been tricking each other. So seen is so

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Speaker 1: good but scary but good. Where Lady hit the I

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Speaker 1: goes about to take her own life. She's about to

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Speaker 1: hang herself, and then Suki catches her, and everyone watching

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Speaker 1: the scene has an anxiety attack of like, I hope

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Speaker 1: that she has strong arms, uh, and this whole scene

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Speaker 1: have it's It's really good. These two actors together are

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Speaker 1: incredible for sure. So now their new plan is to

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Speaker 1: team up with each other against Count Fujiwara, and then

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Speaker 1: right before they're about to run away, they also destroy

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Speaker 1: the Uncle's treasured book collection as basically a like fuck

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Speaker 1: you dude gesture, and then we realize that when Suki

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Speaker 1: is taken to the institution. It's all part of the plan.

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Speaker 1: So then part three is Suki escapes from the institution

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Speaker 1: by lighting it on fire. I was slightly confused about

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Speaker 1: the logistics, but by that point in the movie I

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Speaker 1: was like, Yeah, sure, she liked it on fire. I

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Speaker 1: believe it. Meanwhile, Hitiko drugs the Count, escapes and meets

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Speaker 1: up with Suki. They flee and get on a ferry

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Speaker 1: to Shanghai. And then the Count has been captured and

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Speaker 1: brought back to the uncle's estate where the uncle tortures him.

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Speaker 1: And then the Count smokes a couple of cigarettes laced

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Speaker 1: with mercury, which poisons the air and kills both the men,

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Speaker 1: and then we cut back to the ferry where Suki

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Speaker 1: and Hitiko have more steamy sex. And that's how the

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Speaker 1: movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then

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Speaker 1: we will come back to discuss. And we're back, where

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Speaker 1: do we Caitlin, I'm genuinely curious just to start, what

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Speaker 1: is different about the ending of the BBC adaptation, because

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Speaker 1: I know that the largest adaptation change is obviously changing

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Speaker 1: the setting and the I think the time period was

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Speaker 1: shifted as well. I think it's a Victorian England to

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties Japan and Korea. But what what is different

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Speaker 1: about like the plot points of the ending. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: the first half plays out basically the same, but in

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Speaker 1: Fingersmith the two women never collaborate. They never say, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're tricking me, I was tricking you. Wow, Let's team

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Speaker 1: up together and take down these male oppressors. That does

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Speaker 1: not happen. Instead, the handmade in character ends up in

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Speaker 1: the institution and then stays there for a while, does

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Speaker 1: still escape. Meanwhile, the lady character like is taken to

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Speaker 1: London after this marriage, and she keeps trying to escape

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Speaker 1: and they're like, no, we still have to get your

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Speaker 1: fortune from you. Uh. So she eventually is able to

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Speaker 1: run away and goes to one of like the book

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Speaker 1: collectors that her uncle knows, but then he turns her away,

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Speaker 1: so she has to go back to the home base

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Speaker 1: of all the like the Thief House, basically in London, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, the sort of like matron character is

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Speaker 1: played by Amelda Staunton, who is of course Aunt Lucy

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Speaker 1: from Paddington's Okay I'm with Yes, So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of Paddington connections in Fingersmith. So and then that like

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Speaker 1: matriarch character is like, hey, royal lady person, by the way,

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Speaker 1: you were switched at birth with this handmaiden lady, and

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Speaker 1: so she's the actual lady, and you're I think maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm getting that totally wrong because things got also very

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Speaker 1: confusing at that part. The handmaiden is better. Yeah what

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing right, Yeah, So there's some like switched at

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Speaker 1: birth scandal can't introduce switched at birth at the end

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Speaker 1: this fourth grade. And then so the count guy who

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Speaker 1: they call whose name is like the gentleman in Fingersmith,

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Speaker 1: comes around at some point and gets murdered by unclear

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Speaker 1: which person it was. It was either like the lady

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Speaker 1: or the Amelda Stanton character, but Amelti Stans character takes

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Speaker 1: the blame for it, and then she is hanged. So

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Speaker 1: that sort of now that all these people are dead,

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Speaker 1: she goes back to her like estate with all the books,

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Speaker 1: and then Sally Hawk like the handmaid and character comes

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Speaker 1: back and they sort of like reconcile. So the huge

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Speaker 1: difference is that there's never a team up. There's never

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Speaker 1: like a co conspirator like let's take the men down

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. They just sort of like have to

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Speaker 1: forgive each other, and then there's some like class stuff

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Speaker 1: of like you're not who you think you are, and

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Speaker 1: it's also kind of confusing. So that's Fingersmith. It sounds interesting,

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Speaker 1: but long I like this better. Yeah, okay, well, thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you for thank you for sharing that. I I

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Speaker 1: wasn't aware how how much the source material deviated from

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Speaker 1: this adaptation. Yeah, it's pretty significant. Or I mean again,

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Speaker 1: because we haven't read the book. Who who knows what

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Speaker 1: happens there? Who knows how much that BBC adapt adaptation

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Speaker 1: deviated from the original source material. But The Handmaiden is

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Speaker 1: pretty drastically different in the second half of it from

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Speaker 1: Fingersmith the BBC series, UM got it? Yeah, so yeah.

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Speaker 1: And because of that, one of the things I like

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Speaker 1: about this movie so much is that it's a story

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Speaker 1: about men trying to exploit women and pit women against

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Speaker 1: each other, which doesn't work because the women talk to

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Speaker 1: each other and then they're like, wait a minute, these

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00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: men are trying to suck us over, so they instead

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Speaker 1: team up and punish. They're like again the male oppressors,

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Speaker 1: and then they get together and they live happily ever after. God,

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Speaker 1: I hope so or at least happily on the ferry,

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Speaker 1: they at least have an amazing cruise. So as you

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Speaker 1: started to talk about So Young in terms of like

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Speaker 1: this being a pretty groundbreaking film for South Korean cinema,

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Speaker 1: in terms of it's like queer representation, Yeah, just curious

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Speaker 1: if you have any other thoughts on that or yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know, queer representation, it's just it's not there's

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Speaker 1: not a lot in Korean media and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: even in you know, songs and stuff, and while it's

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Speaker 1: still while it's changing and people are becoming a lot

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Speaker 1: more open to it, it's still not on the forefront

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Speaker 1: like it is in America or you know, other countries.

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Speaker 1: So this was a you know, this was a pretty

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Speaker 1: big deal for not even it's not even like two

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Speaker 1: gay men, because that would have been still more something

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Speaker 1: that you would see, but to two women that that

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Speaker 1: is unheard of. So this was, Yeah, this was pretty

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking in that way, and I appreciate it. I saw,

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Speaker 1: like I guess, mixed reception of of the sex scenes

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Speaker 1: and how they were filmed and framed, and I'm interested

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Speaker 1: to talk about that as well. But I did appreciate that, like,

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Speaker 1: this movie is not shy at all about what it's

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Speaker 1: about and about this like intense sexual connection that these

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Speaker 1: two women have, because I feel like we I mean,

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Speaker 1: even in covering other movies on this podcast, you know,

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Speaker 1: very often when there is a relationship between two women,

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Speaker 1: you get a fade to black situation or you you

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Speaker 1: don't get the sex scene that appears in many PG

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Speaker 1: thirteen movies between a man and a woman. And so

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Speaker 1: I was, yeah, pleasantly surprised to see. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're we're getting sex scenes. That's exciting. I'm very pro sex,

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Speaker 1: especially like and this would have been more common in

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Speaker 1: at least like older American movies. But I just remember

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Speaker 1: that episode that we did on Fried Green Tomatoes where

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Speaker 1: the source material like more explicitly makes it clear that

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Speaker 1: the characters are queer. But then the movie, because it's

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Speaker 1: like a movie from the nineties, not even suggests it.

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Speaker 1: It's just like they're friends. They're friends who don't kiss

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Speaker 1: each other like they're friends, and they lived together for

401
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: such a long time, which based on how you described,

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Speaker 1: like the history of queer representation in South Korean cinema

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Speaker 1: so young, you might expect there to be more of

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00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: a like coding of like that relationship. Even if like

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Speaker 1: the two characters like do team up and like screw

406
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: over the men, that the precedent was set, it sounds

407
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Speaker 1: like to not get very explicit about the nature of

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Speaker 1: their relationship. So the fact that we do it is

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Speaker 1: very explicit, and we do see steamy sex scenes, which

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Speaker 1: again we'll talk about. But yeah, I was like, I

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Speaker 1: thought that was I thought that was really cool because

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Speaker 1: I did a little bit of just kind of I'm

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Speaker 1: by no means an expert in Korean media and certainly

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Speaker 1: not in like queer representation of it. But there is

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Speaker 1: a very helpful Wikipedia, our favorite scholarly journal page specifically

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Speaker 1: about queer representation in Korean media and that how according

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Speaker 1: to two scholars pill Ho Kim and see Colin Singer,

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Speaker 1: there are three pretty distinct waves of queer representation in

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Speaker 1: Korean cinema. Where there's like an invisible age from nine

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Speaker 1: seven where there was like minimal, very minimal l g

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Speaker 1: B t Q plus representation in film. But those films

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Speaker 1: were like relegated to the sidelines, like they didn't get publicity,

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Speaker 1: they were not mainstream. Most people didn't see them. They

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Speaker 1: like flew under the radar, and then there was the

425
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: Camouflage age from two thousand four, where representation grew during

426
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: that period, but queer characters and themes were still sidelined

427
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: and overshadowed by more heteronormative characters and themes. And then

428
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: finally the blockbuster age from two five to the present,

429
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: where cultural acceptance of queer people in queer communities in

430
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: South Korea as well as queer representation in media has

431
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: just kind of like been on the rise and been

432
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: more tolerated and accepted. So which like doesn't sound that

433
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: unlike the trend of queer representation and American Hollywood cinema

434
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: to be honest. Yeah, it's just a little slower, a

435
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: little more behind, right. Another trip that I really liked

436
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: that this movie because we've we've been covering a number

437
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: of query movies recently, and I think it was in

438
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: our Portrait of a Lady on Fire episode where we

439
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: discussed the trope that it's also a very white trope ordinarily,

440
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: but when there is a period piece with a lesbian

441
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: couple that it's all very doomed, it's all very like it.

442
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: It never ends well for the couple. The couple never

443
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,479
Speaker 1: is able to survive the adversity, which is in some

444
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: ways at odds with many historical examples, but that is

445
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: the trend that movies have taken. And so when I

446
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: when I learned this was a period piece, I was like, Oh, no,

447
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: are we going to get another you know, doomed queer

448
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: couple that and and we don't they win? Like they win,

449
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: and I mean it was I guess it does kind

450
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: of demonstrate how going for scraps we still have to

451
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: be at times. But I was like, they their their

452
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: love survives, they overcome the adversity. It's not like, you know,

453
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: an ending where they're just like, I wonder what could

454
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: have been, Like they're on the damn boat having sex.

455
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: I was thrilled that that they ended up together at

456
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: the end, And because it's yeah, and in period pieces especially,

457
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: I feel like that is kind of rare. Yeah, I

458
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: think it legit shocked me given the historical context of

459
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: the of the movie, because you know, during that time,

460
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: it was like a lot of people died, so it

461
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't it wouldn't have been strange to kind of see

462
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: that ending with the fact that it was a happy ending.

463
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: I mean, that was that was amazing. I was like, absolutely,

464
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm here for it. Yeah. In the Catharsis of like

465
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: the two men dying, cut to two women just like

466
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: putting jingle bells in there for joying and having a ball.

467
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: I guess that's one literally no pun intended having a ball,

468
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: and oh god, the that. There were moments where I like,

469
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: this movie is just straight up smarter than me in

470
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: certain ways where I was like, oh, yeah, like I

471
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: know that the bell. I was like, the bell is

472
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: a metaphorical object. I can pick up on that much.

473
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: And so when they're fucking each other with the bells,

474
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, this means something. I don't know what, but

475
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: definitely something. It's a metaphorical thing. And I and and sure,

476
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: and I totally understand. Yeah, I don't know what the

477
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: bells are a metaphor for, but I feel like I

478
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: don't need to know. I don't know. I every time

479
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 1: I'm just like, it's a metaphor for dot dot patriarchy.

480
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: I don't actually really know. Uh. I think the bells

481
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: they were in um one of the books that the

482
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: lady she read. I think they're just kind of like, oh,

483
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to reclaim it. You know, it's not part

484
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: of this weird, creepy whatever thing that I'm doing from

485
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: my uncle. It's like our love things. That's what I thought.

486
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, because it's like uses their uses a

487
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: weapon at one point, and okay, maybe I do understand. Oh,

488
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: but those are a different set of metal balls that

489
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: are used, like Okay, then I'm lost again. Yeah, I

490
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: think that was stove, that was right. The bells Okay, no,

491
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: they look similar, but no, but you're right, so young

492
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: where she was, because it's this difference of she's being

493
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: forced against her will to read these stories solely for

494
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: the sake of the pleasure of all of these men,

495
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: and then when we actually see her use those toys, materials,

496
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: the items, the bells, the bells, now, it's like they're

497
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: on her terms and she's not doing it for these

498
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: creepy men. She's doing it for herself. So it's like

499
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: a nice, just symbolic thing. I also noticed in that

500
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: scene when she's reading about because that's the only scene

501
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: I think where she's doing a reading from one of

502
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: those books that does involve two women, and we see

503
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: her like pat her little handkerchief, like pat down her

504
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: like perspiration, as if to say, Wow, that actually got

505
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: me excited because of all the other the other scenes

506
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: where she's doing readings about like a penis going into

507
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 1: a vagina, She's just like not interested, do not care,

508
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: and a penis going into a vagina in a pretty

509
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: a pretty mean way most of the time, like that

510
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 1: they're they're not they're very unpleasant stories that all these

511
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: guys are getting extremely aroused by. It's all like, I mean,

512
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: I guess that that is like so much of what

513
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: comes up in the movie is like the the men

514
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 1: of this story policing and controlling the women in their

515
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: lives and controlling their bodies sexually, controlling their bodies in

516
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: terms of like Lady Hideko is literally like trapped in

517
00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: this castle kind of Princess Peach style, and it's it's

518
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: like about the extreme control of women's bodies and and

519
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: an attempt to control their minds which doesn't succeed. But yeah,

520
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, it's it's so And and

521
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: then also in the case of the uncle, this really

522
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: volatile nature of like repeated intimidation of his wife who

523
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: eventually takes her own life, and and his niece. No

524
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: he it's implied that he kills her, but but it's

525
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: played off as though she killed herself. But in any case,

526
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: like it repeatedly like instilling them with fear and threats,

527
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: and then when they respond to that, they're framed as

528
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: hysterical in this very I mean, I guess you're like, well,

529
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: it's theties, of course that is happening. But um, it

530
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,479
Speaker 1: was interesting seeing it framed the way it was, where

531
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: it was like even with that deception that they're like, oh,

532
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: she she took her own life, you know, because she

533
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, she was suffering from something that we don't

534
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: really know what was going on, when it's like so

535
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: clear what is going on in this house where women

536
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: are just brutalized and if I don't know, I mean

537
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really brutal in some um in some

538
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: sections of this movie, to the point where you know,

539
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: when the when the count and the uncle kind of

540
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: get their come up into at the end, you're like,

541
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: thank god, Uh yeah, especially with the reveal that the

542
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: uncle has been basically grooming her since childhood to read

543
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: this like erotic literature, that's straight up child sex abuse.

544
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: And so when he keels over and dies, I was like,

545
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: it's about damned time. Um, let's take another quick break

546
00:36:53,239 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: and then we will be right back, and we're back.

547
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: We we've referenced this already. But so Fingersmith was the

548
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: inspiration for this story. It sounds like it deviates kind

549
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: of significantly in the back half. But um, I was,

550
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, pleasantly surprised, knowing nothing about the background of

551
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: this movie, to find that it had been adapted by

552
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 1: a text by a queer woman, by a Welsh author

553
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: named Sarah Waters, who wrote this in two thousand two.

554
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: And I thought that just I don't know all the

555
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: information on adapting this movie and adapting that story to

556
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: Japan and Korea in this time period. I I learned

557
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 1: a lot, having h having gotten you know, a piss

558
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: poor American education that this same this period of history

559
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: in Korea and Japan. I was not well versed in.

560
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 1: I knew kind of the main bullet points, but learning

561
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: more about the annexation of Korea and just the complete culture,

562
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: erasure and colonialism that was going on at this time

563
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: was not something that I was very well versed in.

564
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 1: And it doesn't sound like it was something that Sarah Waters,

565
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: a Welsh author, was very well first in as well,

566
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: and so there will link this in the description. But

567
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: it's just a very interesting adaptation story. Where Sarah Waters

568
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: was at first, um not sure whether Park Chun Wook,

569
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: who is the director of this movie and many other movies.

570
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: He's kind of has a reputation for being a hyper

571
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: masculine director, like he directs pretty like he directed Old Boy.

572
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: He directed all these like really male driven movies, and

573
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: so at first she was like, I don't does this

574
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: make sense. Once they like discussed collaborating and hester and

575
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: and he also wrote this script with female co writer

576
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: Chung I hope that I'm getting right Chung cho kieong um,

577
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: who he's worked with a number of times over the years.

578
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: So he had he had a female co writer and

579
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: they proposed this time shift, and that was what got

580
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: Sarah Waters on board. So I just I don't know,

581
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a really cool story of and I

582
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: feel like this time period in the setting like fit

583
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: the stories so effortlessly and also kind of I mean,

584
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: based on what you're saying about the BBC adaptation, Caitlin,

585
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: sounds like it sort of expands the scope of what

586
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: the story is able to explore because it's you know,

587
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: not only is it examining class in a lot of ways,

588
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: and it's like examining queerness and it's examining patriarchy, but

589
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: it's also touching on this you know, extreme period of

590
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: colonialism and really aggressive cultural erasure in a way. It

591
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: sounds like the source material didn't because of where, where

592
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: and when it was set. So um, yeah, yeah, it's

593
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: just a really interesting story. Yeah. Like I was like,

594
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 1: turns out I know nothing about this period of history.

595
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: Let me read the Wikipedia page. And it's just like

596
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: in the US, we're just like not taught about this

597
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: period of time at all. Yeah, so, uh, this movie

598
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: inspired me to like learn about it. So I did

599
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: read the first several paragraphs of the Wikipedia page about it. Well,

600
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: we'll link to some resources in uh in the description

601
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: as well, if you like us got a very limited

602
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: shitty education the United States. Yeah, I just wanted to add, like,

603
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: I think one of the interesting things is, like, so

604
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: the brutality of the men, right, the men were pretty

605
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: terrible and they did pretty terrible things. But during this time,

606
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: you know, there was a lot of anti Japanese sentiment

607
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: obviously because of what was happening and I thought it

608
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: was really interesting because these two men are very pro Japanese, right,

609
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: they want, you know, doing all these things, but they're Korean,

610
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: and so it kind of showed the whole, you know,

611
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: in my personal opinion, it showed a whole like all

612
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: the Koreans who kind of portrayed, you know, our country

613
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: in a sense, we're worse than the Japanese people who

614
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: invaded our country. So I did find that that's a

615
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: very interesting framing of that from pac John because you know,

616
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: during this time it was such a you know, was

617
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: obviously about time, but kind of that shine through the

618
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 1: very you know, don't be this type of person during

619
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: this horrible time in which you know, this thing's happened.

620
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. There there's like that whole

621
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: conversation they have where it's like a reveal later in

622
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: the movie that the uncle has done the same thing

623
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: that the Count is in the middle of doing, which

624
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: is yeah, you know, saying their their Japanese when they

625
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: are not and being generally villainous. And but there's like

626
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: that whole conversation they have where the uncle is talking

627
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: about how he that Korea is ugly and Japan is beautiful,

628
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: and the Count says, oh, you know, that's interesting. I've

629
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: heard people say the exact opposite, and it's like the

630
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, and again I'm I'm not

631
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: extremely educated in this period of history at all, but

632
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: just even opening this story to make room for discussion

633
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: about that, and it does seem like Park chinook Is

634
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: is making kind of a value judgment of of these

635
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: characters through their behavior outside of of the colonial history.

636
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's you know, I never want to

637
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: see someone's fingers chopped off by like a paper cutter. Uh.

638
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: I guess that's the end of the sentence. But you know,

639
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: it's like if it had to happen to someone, I'm like,

640
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: the Count is terrible, and and as the as the

641
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: story goes on, you just realize more more angles from

642
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: which he is terrible, and so when they take his

643
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: fingers off with a paper cutter, it's like, you know, yeah, okay, fine, fine,

644
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: I'll allow it. Yeah no, Uh, both the Count and

645
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: the uncle got what they deserved as far as I'm concerned,

646
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: because you know, they're both abusers, their manipulators. I mean,

647
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: we see a scene where the Count tries to sexually

648
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: assault Hittigo. These are awful, awful men, and so I

649
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: appreciate that we see toxic male behavior being punished because

650
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: they end up dying because the women were very clever

651
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: in their like orchestration of this scheme to get back

652
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: at them. And I thought that was really cool to see.

653
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 1: You often don't see toxic male behavior punished in movies.

654
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just appreciated that a lot. And it

655
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: does seem like they really I mean, both of those

656
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: characters are leve viridging the most dominant advantage they have,

657
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: which is the fact that they're men. And it is

658
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: I feel like any you know, any empathy you could

659
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: generate for these characters, who are to an extent in

660
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: a really difficult situation as Korean men at this time

661
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: of intense colonialism, is completely undercut by the fact that

662
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: they're taking it out on the women around them, the

663
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: people who have less power than them, and elevating themselves

664
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: at the expense of the people who have less power.

665
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: And there's there were some like interesting moments I found

666
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: interesting with account where he says these things that sound

667
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: so cutting and cruel, but you can sort of understand

668
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: why he's saying them, even if you don't agree with it.

669
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: Where he's saying, you know, where I come from, it's

670
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: illegal to be naive, and sort of referencing the fact

671
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: that he's from the underclass and he's from he's Korean,

672
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: he's from a really oppressed group of people at this time,

673
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: and so you can understand why he would say that.

674
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: But what he's talking about is deceiving a Korean woman

675
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: and throwing her in jail essentially, and it's yeah, yeah,

676
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: it's almost like blaming her and it's like you shouldn't

677
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: have trusted anybody. Yeah, ever, right, Yeah, it's it's all

678
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: very fascinating and the yeah, the way that these really

679
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: terrible men in the movie are punished for their like

680
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: upholding of the patriarchy is very exciting to watch in

681
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: a way that doesn't really I mean, it kind of

682
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: happens in Fingersmiths, but like, again, the major change that

683
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: I really appreciate is the two women like realizing that

684
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: they're in love with the other. That kind of prompts

685
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: them to admit what's going on. Then they're like, yeah,

686
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: I'm upset that you tricked me, but also I was

687
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 1: tricking you, so I can't be that upset. But now

688
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: that we know what the real situation is, let's team up.

689
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 1: And now there's a third trickery happening against the count.

690
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 1: So I love a movie with tricks. It's exciting. Um,

691
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: should we talk a little bit more about the sex

692
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: scenes slash the mail Gaze. Yeah, let's get into where So,

693
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: like we mentioned, there have been mixed reviews about this

694
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: where some of the discussion around this film was how

695
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: the movie deconstructs or transcends the mail gaze. I think

696
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: more based on the events of the story and how

697
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: like these women team up and collaborate and take down

698
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: the men, rather than the sex scenes themselves. Because other

699
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 1: critics have been like, um, well, it is a movie

700
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 1: about lesbians with some graphic sex scenes that were shot

701
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: by a director and cinematographer who are both men, and

702
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: the sex scenes are really long and and quite graphic,

703
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 1: and you know, there's still male gaze involved because of

704
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: the people who are capturing this imagery and delivering it

705
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: to an audience. And then other people were like, but

706
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: what about the part of the movie where there's like

707
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 1: a shot from the point of view of Heidako's volva,

708
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: where like we just see Suki like leaning in with

709
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: her tongue out about she had a goal pro on

710
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: her LA is essentially the shot, and so it's like, well,

711
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: how could that be the male gaze when it's literally

712
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: from the point of view of a vagina. And then

713
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: so there's you know, there's a lot of sides to

714
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: this argument. I'm curious how the both of you feel

715
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 1: about this. I think, Okay, look, I think the sex

716
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: scenes were over the top. That's just my personal opinion.

717
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: I think it was a lot and very graphic and

718
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: almost like unnecessarily graphic, honestly, And I do agree. It's

719
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: a male director, it's a male cinematographer, so there is

720
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: a male gaze there especially. I don't know the director obviously,

721
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: but just kind of like how much do they really

722
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: know about how the sex scene should go, you know,

723
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: and like in other lgbt Q movies. So I'll say, yeah,

724
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: that's like my main criticism it is it's a lot.

725
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: It's definitely almost too much. And I think if you

726
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: didn't have it that graphic or whatever, it wouldn't have

727
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: taken away from the story whatsoever. So I think, yeah,

728
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,399
Speaker 1: I think it was a little too much. I wasn't sure.

729
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: I mean I was interested to read through all the

730
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: different takes, and it's like, you know, if if you

731
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: loved the sex scene, that's great. I didn't. I mean,

732
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 1: I liked that there was a sex scene there. I

733
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: didn't have any issue with that because I feel like,

734
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: you know, very often, like we're talking about earlier, when

735
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: there's a lesbian relationship, it's all very like Wink wink

736
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: fade to black in mainstream movies, but the scenes are

737
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: very long. They're extremely long. The go pro shot through me. Uh,

738
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: he also get the same sex scene twice from like

739
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: two different points of view. I guess yeah. I mean,

740
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: knowing that it was directed and filmed by men, I

741
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,399
Speaker 1: feel like kind of tells you what you need to know.

742
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: And I was also interested in This came from a

743
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: Guardian profile of Sarah Waters, who wrote Fingersmith at the

744
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: time The Handmaiden came out and kind of like clarified.

745
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: I was like, what is so essentially what it says

746
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: is in in the book, which we're not going to read,

747
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: but in in the book, I guess, uh, you know,

748
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 1: Sarah Waters very often writes lesbian romances in her work,

749
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: but a lot of what she's known for is just

750
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: talking about women's bodies very frankly, in a way that

751
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: like incorporates things like sweat and like pubic hair and

752
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: just things that are kind of a glossed over and

753
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: a lot of big movie sex scenes and present this

754
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: very idealized version of what lesbian sex looks like. And

755
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 1: I and that is like made clear in the story too,

756
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: where you know, like when Lady high Deco is reading this,

757
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, pornographic literature, they're referencing the vagina repeatedly as

758
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: like hairless, smooth, like this mythic thing that those who

759
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: have vaginas are, Like, okay, sure, like it's somehow like

760
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: pearly white, made of jade, the jade gates, you know,

761
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: and they're like folds of like gore. You're like, okay,

762
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: but sparkles and shimmers and but there's also other stuff

763
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: going on. Um. And it seems like her work was

764
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: kind of known for just like talking about bodies in

765
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,280
Speaker 1: that way that was like very sexual, but also about

766
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: actual bodies and not this like mythic view of what

767
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: bodies are. And I felt like the sex scenes in

768
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: this movie didn't really meet that where it's still felt

769
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: even though the other side of that came across clearly

770
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: that it's like listening to her half to talk about

771
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 1: this really unrealistic view of what a vagina looks like

772
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: day after day is clearly wearing on her and is

773
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: ridiculous and male gazy. The sex scenms, I feel like,

774
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: didn't really challenge that enough. I don't know, I don't know.

775
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: My personal opinion is that they were they were long. Yeah,

776
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: I'm like of two minds about it, where I think

777
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: it's cool that we do get more of a foray

778
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: into lesbian sex than you tend to see in mainstream movies,

779
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 1: just because of like our heteronormative society and so much

780
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: phobia around queer sex. There's just been a tendency to

781
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: shy away from it, or skirt around it, or just

782
00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: not feature it, especially because when it's lesbian sex there

783
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: is double the focus on female pleasure, which is something

784
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: that even in hetero sex scenes and just again culture

785
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: at large, the idea of female pleasure is terrifying to

786
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: a large chunk of the population. So further to be,

787
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: this emphasis on female pleasure in the sex scenes is

788
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: cool and exciting, but the sex scenes linger on for

789
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: longer than we need, and ultimately they are by the

790
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,479
Speaker 1: very nature of who is making this film shot through

791
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: the male gaze and interpreted through the male gaze, and

792
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: even sort of the way in which the like the

793
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: blocking of the sex scenes feels it's a lot. It's

794
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: it's just knowing there is a man on the other

795
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: side of the go pro it feels it's like, it

796
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: feels fetishy, the way some straight men are like, oh yeah,

797
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: getting it on, that's so hot. I agree, And I

798
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 1: feel like that is like another thing that it seems like,

799
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: I mean, just based on doing basic research on this

800
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 1: production team that Park Chinook very often collaborates with the

801
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: same group of people, and this is a cinematographer he

802
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: works with a lot. But it's like if again, it's

803
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 1: like when we talk about this with male directors all

804
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: the time, of like, if you are dead set on

805
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: adapting this story, then you need to be flexible in

806
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: who you're working with, and you need to like really

807
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: make sure you have people in the room who will

808
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: just be able to speak to the experience, because otherwise

809
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,879
Speaker 1: there's going to be stuff that feels dissonant. I did

810
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: read an interview with the director in which he addresses

811
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: these sex scenes, and it seems like his general intention

812
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: was that he understood how like delicate of a thing

813
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: this would be to shoot, and he wanted to be

814
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: as considerate and respectful to the actors as possible, because

815
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: that's always something we're like, Okay, these actors have to

816
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: be naked in front of a bunch of people, they

817
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: have to be physically close with another actor simulating sex,

818
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: and depending on different factors, this has the potential to

819
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: be very uncomfortable for actors. So I found this interview

820
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: in which he it seems like, you know, he he

821
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: did his very best, although some of the answers are

822
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 1: funny where he's like, that day, we hired a woman

823
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: to be the boom operator for that day on set,

824
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, is that the only circumstances where

825
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: you would hire a woman to be or boom operate?

826
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 1: But it seems like he was like fully aware of

827
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 1: the situation. He wanted to make everyone as comfortable as possible.

828
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: So there was like very minimal crew on set for

829
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: those scenes. The DP and the camera operator were not

830
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: on set that they were using like a remote controlled camera.

831
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: I hope there's like an intimacy coordinator or something of

832
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: that nature. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because

833
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: so if any listeners are not aware, if a movie

834
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:42,839
Speaker 1: or TV production has a sex scene, ideally they will

835
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 1: hire what's called an intimacy coordinator, who is there to

836
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 1: advocate for the well being and safety of the actors

837
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: who participate in sex scenes or just like kind of

838
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: any other physically intimate scenes. Again, ideally a set will

839
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 1: of this person, but that's not always the case. And

840
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 1: as far as whether or not an intimacy coordinator was

841
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: present on this set, that did not get spoken of,

842
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,919
Speaker 1: So I I am not sure. I really hope. So,

843
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: oh my god, if you're that naked, please have a

844
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: person who is your advocate there, that is I hope

845
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: he he just forgot to mention that person. Yeah, that

846
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: did not come up in the interview, but at least

847
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,959
Speaker 1: it sounds like he made an effort. I didn't find

848
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 1: anything on how the actors felt about those scenes, about

849
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, whether they were comfortable. I hope so. But yeah,

850
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: it's also sort of like, okay, if you have to

851
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: take so many leaps and bounds to make the shooting

852
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: of this safe for the actors. It's also a question

853
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: of like, Okay, do I like, does this absolutely you

854
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: need to happen this way? Or I feel like they're

855
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: I mean, in the erotic thriller genre in general, I

856
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: feel like sometimes it's like, I don't know, I'm generally

857
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: showing up for the thriller elements, and then if people

858
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: are fucking amazing, that's great, but that's not like what

859
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: what I'm like, what the bulk of the movie is. Um,

860
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel like that those seeds were like, Okay,

861
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: this is an erotic thriller, get it, especially because like,

862
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: I'm also interested on your both of your thoughts on

863
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: this as well. But to me, there's far more of

864
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: an emphasis in the movie on their sexual connection and

865
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: like their physical attraction than there is on like an

866
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: actual like what do they have in common? Why do

867
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: they like each other? I didn't get a big sense

868
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: of that. But also maybe I'm forgetting some stuff. I

869
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: do think. Yeah, I think there's more emphasis on the

870
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: sexual parts. I think with the emotional like aspect of it.

871
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: The part that sticks out to me is like the

872
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: time when they're when Suki is destroying all the books

873
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: and the paintings and whatnot, and she's like so angry

874
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: because she understands, you know, what has been happening. She

875
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: destroys everything, and the Lady Jadeko is just you know,

876
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: standing there, just like not fully sure on what to do.

877
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: She's just like, what is happening? I don't know. I

878
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: feel like that, Like on an emotional level, was like

879
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. I felt that. I was like, oh,

880
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: that's really sweet because you know, they're kind of their

881
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: worlds are colliding in this moment where it's like she

882
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: kind of like is thinking, oh, I thought you were

883
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: this rich girl who doesn't really understand anything, but it's like, no,

884
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: you're you're victimized the way I'm victimized, just in different aspects,

885
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: you know. So I feel like that's kind of how

886
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: the world is collided in that sense. That's what That's

887
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: what I saw. That's the scene I remember. Yeah, I

888
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: felt a similar way where it's you know, I guess

889
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 1: that you learn more about their emotional connection in the

890
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,439
Speaker 1: back half, where like part one definitely doesn't give you

891
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: everything you need, but also part one gives you a

892
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: completely false impression of who Lady Hideko is. Like I

893
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: feel like if we were just like all my notes

894
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,479
Speaker 1: from part one was like, oh my gosh, like Lady

895
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: Hideko is on this like born sexy Yesterday thing going on,

896
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: and she's just like, I don't what is sex. I've

897
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: never heard of that, and you know, and and in

898
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: a way that I thought like the movie had fun

899
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: with later where they kind of poke fun at Suki

900
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: for being like, wow, this must just you must have

901
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: incredible instincts for being like, yeah, you're natural. That made

902
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: me laugh. Uh, But I I thought that, I mean,

903
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, I felt like any relationship where they

904
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: just surprised each other and like, I don't know, I'm

905
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: I'm always like kind of a sucker for relationships like that,

906
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: and it is like, you know, kind of like definitely

907
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: a class story we've seen before. Let's say Titan Titan perhaps,

908
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: but where where you know, it's it's like they have

909
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: very rigid ideas of who this person is going to

910
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: be and they end up getting surprised by that person

911
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: having a lot more to them than they expected. So

912
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 1: I was on board for the love story. I I

913
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: got why they were drawn to each other as people,

914
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, we definitely could have spent

915
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: more time with it um and with with them as

916
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: that relationship was building, but especially those like longer scenes

917
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: in part one when you reflect on them and you're like, oh,

918
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: like lady Hideko is playing four D chess and she

919
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: knows exactly what's going on, and even still she's like

920
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: falling for Suki. I don't know. I was on board

921
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: for the romance. I thought it was I thought it

922
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: was like a classic you know, star cross levers across

923
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: classes kind of thing. Sure, you just contrived in itself,

924
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: but like, I think we could have shortened those sex

925
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 1: scenes and given us like one or two more signifiers

926
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 1: of just like, oh, yeah, here's what they bond over,

927
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: here's the thing that they both like, or here's a

928
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: little thing that they have in common, because I don't

929
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,919
Speaker 1: really I still don't have the strongest sense of that.

930
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: And it's one thing, you know, if a movie wants

931
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: to present this connection just as a sexual connection, like

932
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: obviously not every connection between people needs to be this deep, intimate,

933
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 1: long lasting love, but I feel like the movie frames

934
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: their connection as deep love. So I don't know, But

935
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 1: now I'm just picturing Titanic. If Titanic were like Billy

936
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: Zane and Rose collaborating to trick Jack Dawson into something.

937
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: But it turns out wait a minute, Rose and Jack

938
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 1: are collaborating to trick Billy Zane and get his fortune.

939
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: Everything remaps onto Titanic. It's just nature. Um, it's unavoidable.

940
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: And that's something that I also like, It's a trope

941
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: we talked about a jillion times, but relationships that are

942
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 1: founded on lies, you know, that was like I was

943
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: aware of very early in the movie. But again, I

944
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 1: feel like this movie kind of like finds its way

945
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 1: out of the trappings of that where the lies are

946
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: found out and they simply admit it and apologize to

947
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: each other and then like take action in a positive

948
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: direction where I feel like, you know, we've covered five

949
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 1: trillion movies at this point. That is like there's a

950
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: dare that involves a lie and it makes sense but

951
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: not really. And then at the end, the you know,

952
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: the person lying usually in this heterosexual relationship is like

953
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: Freddy Prince Jr. And he's like, I don't know, I

954
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: told a lie and I'm not even sorry and I apologize.

955
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,479
Speaker 1: This movie, you know, like skirts, all of those things

956
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: where it is just everything is a lie at the beginning.

957
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 1: But then there's that great scene where uh Suki catches

958
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: Lady Hideco and they have this this just very emotionally

959
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 1: raw conversation. They're both crying, they're both being honest, and

960
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 1: then and then they singlehandedly destroyed the patriarchy at the end.

961
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: So there. Yeah, Also, I mean they're both victims of

962
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 1: this patriarchal structure. They're both they have a lot of

963
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: trauma that they have been subjected to. So yeah, I

964
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: mean it makes sense that they bond again. I just

965
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: I wish there was just to smidge more. There's also

966
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,200
Speaker 1: that moment that I don't know in the different it

967
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: makes me want to like watch it back again because

968
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: I feel like this, like this movie does like give

969
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 1: you a lot back once you know what's going to

970
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 1: happen in the middle. But even the ways that like

971
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: their patriarchal structure influences their assumptions of each other. Where

972
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: at the beginning, like Suki, we hear her talking in

973
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: voiceover a lot, and she's talking about Lady Hideko as

974
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: if she's an object at the beginning, and she's like,

975
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, ladies are handmaidens, dolls, and like she is

976
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, being encouraged to think of her in this

977
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: very particular way and being encouraged to think of her as,

978
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, someone who is not as smart as her.

979
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: And then in the second half, we're being encouraged to

980
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: think of Suki as someone who is not as smart

981
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: as Lady Hideko based on how she's been conditioned to view,

982
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, poor women and and poor people in general.

983
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 1: And then in the third part you realize, uh, guess

984
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: what neither was true? And it was somewhere in the middle,

985
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: and and they're on the both geniuses, both geniuses, and

986
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: and they're on about I really liked Suki had this fun,

987
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 1: like Aladdin style introduction to who she was that I

988
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: thought was very exciting, where I like the the mythos

989
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: of Suki's life where she's like, I am the world's

990
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: greatest thief, and I was like, oh my god, she's Aladdin.

991
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 1: This is exciting. And that was I don't know if

992
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: that has anything to do with anything, but I wrote down,

993
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 1: Suki equals Aladdin and she falls in love with her.

994
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: Princess Jasmine um Hitiko teaches Suki how to read. So

995
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 1: women helping other women, women, uplifting women, you love to

996
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 1: see it. Although reading for Hideko was a prison for

997
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: a long time. She was to read for evil. It's true,

998
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 1: and that's why we don't read books. And that's why

999
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: on the Bectel cast we don't read books because reading,

1000
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 1: actually women reading is a prison dangerous. We've been saying

1001
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: this for years. At this point, it's dangerous. I mean

1002
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 1: to call back to another Disney movie. According to Guston

1003
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: in Beauty and the Beast, women who read it gives

1004
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 1: them ideas and then they start thinking, and that is dangerous.

1005
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 1: It's dangerous. Um, does anyone, Does anyone have anything else

1006
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 1: they would like to talk about? Ah, that's all I had. Yeah,

1007
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 1: I just wanted to add. So there's in the second

1008
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: half of the movie. There's a scene we've seen a

1009
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: couple of times from two different points of view where

1010
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 1: Suki is like standing in as just like a model

1011
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: for the art, like the painting that Hideko is doing

1012
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: of Suki. And you see a quick reveal of her

1013
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: drawing of Suki, and it's the funniest thing in the

1014
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 1: world because it's so bad. It's really bad. But they

1015
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:09,960
Speaker 1: it's like what Leonardo DiCaprio was actually drawing. In the

1016
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: Satanic he's like, um, circled dot dot smile, and then

1017
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 1: you just get like the quickest glimpse of it. But

1018
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 1: it's not really played as a joke. But I like,

1019
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 1: I burst out laughing every time I see it because

1020
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: it's so funny. Because then because first you see so

1021
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 1: the council thing is that he's been training for years

1022
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 1: to be a forger, so he like he's a talented artist,

1023
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: Like he's a really good artist. He's really good at

1024
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: creating these forgeries of these books and like the art

1025
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: in the books, so he knows what he's doing. And

1026
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 1: you see like his little sketches and paintings of Suki

1027
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh damn, Like he's great, and then

1028
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 1: it pans over to Lady Jideko's drawing. It's the funniest

1029
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 1: thing in the world. It's really bad. It's um, I

1030
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 1: guess the last serious thing I wanted to talk about.

1031
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: And I don't know a whole lot about Park chan

1032
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: wooks filmography. I've seen Old Boy, but it's been several years,

1033
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 1: so I don't remember it that well. So I don't

1034
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 1: really know much about him as a figure, and sort

1035
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 1: of like his his background and stuff like that. But

1036
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:26,759
Speaker 1: one of his reasons for wanting to make this movie

1037
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:32,839
Speaker 1: is that his intention was to normalize queer relationships in cinema,

1038
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 1: and you know, that's not something that most straight male

1039
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 1: directors are concerned with. So I feel like it's a

1040
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 1: it's a classic step in the right direction kind of

1041
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 1: move where we've talked about I think a lot of

1042
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 1: instances like this where the attempt is perhaps in perfect

1043
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:59,080
Speaker 1: in some ways. But the endorsement of a you know,

1044
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 1: super fame mis director, and I mean not even the internship,

1045
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:07,719
Speaker 1: but like a super famous director prioritizing representation of queer

1046
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: people and of a lesbian relationship in their work is

1047
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 1: like a good step in the right direction. Does it

1048
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:17,800
Speaker 1: mean that everything was represented perfectly and in a way

1049
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: that made total sense? Usually not in those cases, because

1050
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 1: most of these hot shot directors are normally straight men,

1051
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: and they're you know, and there, and therefore they're fucked

1052
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,559
Speaker 1: in terms of their worldview. But but it usually indicates,

1053
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 1: I feel like, at least historically, it usually indicates that

1054
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: better movies and better representation is close behind, or I hope.

1055
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, And this movie being a success and

1056
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 1: critically acclaimed hopefully paves the way for queer women in

1057
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 1: South Korea to be able to tell their own stories next,

1058
01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 1: let's hope. So yeah, so the movie does pass the

1059
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 1: Bechdel test. Hell yeah, a lot of women scheming, a

1060
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 1: lot of women lying to each other in a way

1061
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 1: that passes the Bechtel test. And as far as our

1062
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 1: nipple scale, our scale of zero to five nipples, based

1063
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: on how the movie Fair is looking at it through

1064
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: the lens of intersectional feminism, I'm tempted to give this

1065
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: like a four point to five. Just the narrative that

1066
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 1: unfolds of ultimately like women teaming up two overthrow and

1067
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,640
Speaker 1: manipulate their oppressors the way that they had been manipulating

1068
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: them and coming out on top being allowed to like

1069
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:57,599
Speaker 1: be together on this ferry and then hopefully after that

1070
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:01,559
Speaker 1: for however much time they want to spend together, if

1071
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 1: they live, you know, the rest of their lives together.

1072
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, just like all the commentary on the patriarchy

1073
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:13,600
Speaker 1: and the smashing of that patriarchy is just very satisfying

1074
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 1: and cathartic to watch. Um, the sex scenes are pretty

1075
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:27,679
Speaker 1: male gazy, they're pretty fetish. She a bit gratuitous, will say,

1076
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 1: you know, it always kind of begs a question was

1077
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:34,600
Speaker 1: this the right director to tell this story or you know,

1078
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: like is this is there the right person to be

1079
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:42,799
Speaker 1: shooting these scenes, and like how much consultation was actually done,

1080
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,719
Speaker 1: et cetera. So that's where the movie loses some points.

1081
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: So I think I'll land on a four and a quarter.

1082
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 1: That might be too generous, but I just think this

1083
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 1: movie rules, So I'm gonna go easy on it, and

1084
01:12:56,200 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: I will give my nipples to try Kim who plays

1085
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 1: Suki Minhi Kim who plays Hiteko, the screenwriter John s Kion,

1086
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:13,639
Speaker 1: and I'll give one to the aunt a tragic fate

1087
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:19,639
Speaker 1: and she she deserves something. I'll give my quarter nipple

1088
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:27,519
Speaker 1: to that amazing drawing. I'm gonna go I think're gonna

1089
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,760
Speaker 1: go there. We when we get into the fractions to

1090
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 1: get so messy. I'm gonna I'm gonna go three point

1091
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,719
Speaker 1: seven five because ultimately this movie is directed and shot

1092
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:42,640
Speaker 1: by straight guys, So I I can't Yeah, I I

1093
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 1: don't want to go too much higher than that. That said,

1094
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: A period piece that has a female co writer based

1095
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:53,719
Speaker 1: on the work of famous lesbian writer. It's a period

1096
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:58,599
Speaker 1: piece where the lesbian couple stays together at a happy

1097
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: ending for them, we see the their patriarchal structure, um,

1098
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:05,760
Speaker 1: at least in the terms of the two of them

1099
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 1: crumble and is very cool and very rare in terms

1100
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 1: of lesbian period pieces unfortunately. Uh So, I think that's

1101
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: definitely something worth praising. The movie itself fucking rocks. Like,

1102
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it, it's so fun. I wish

1103
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 1: I had watched it with someone else so we could

1104
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 1: have like, like all the right moments. But it's just

1105
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 1: it's it's a really fun movie. It's very accessible if

1106
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:39,719
Speaker 1: you have Amazon Prime. Hail Basos. Sorry, we can legally

1107
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 1: have to say that we love what we we love

1108
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: our bald king. Uh but um, yeah, I mean I

1109
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 1: think that there there are like little this The sex

1110
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 1: scenes are male gazy, and they are quite long, and

1111
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: there are I don't know, I mean, this is sort

1112
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 1: of inherent to the kind of story that this is.

1113
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 1: But anytime, it's like, the patriarchy is two people and

1114
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,040
Speaker 1: you know them. So if you can just get rid

1115
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:10,320
Speaker 1: of these two people, right, you're free. Like it's it's

1116
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 1: fun in a fantasy way. But I'm always just like, Okay,

1117
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 1: but what about the rest of it. Yeah, it's not

1118
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 1: so much smashing the patriarchy. It's more smashing too much

1119
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: those two guys, you know, which is also very hard.

1120
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: But you know whatever, I'm getting very in the weeds there. Um,

1121
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 1: I guess you know, I'll go for for a four,

1122
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:32,639
Speaker 1: but I can't go higher because when it's when it's

1123
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 1: two straight guys, it's just like, okay, so this is

1124
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,600
Speaker 1: a step, but more please. Uh So I'll go for

1125
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 1: and I'm giving them all to that go pro. So yeah,

1126
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: what would what would you give it? Um? I think

1127
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 1: I'd give it a solid for because you know, it's

1128
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:58,720
Speaker 1: a good story. It's it's great that it exists in

1129
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 1: this world from you know, Korean stuff like that. But

1130
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,799
Speaker 1: just yeah, the sex scenes are so long. They're so long,

1131
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 1: and I was just like, it's too long, and we

1132
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:14,680
Speaker 1: had to see multiple angles of it, and um, you know,

1133
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:16,720
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, you could have shortened it

1134
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 1: just a little bit, not like, you know, get rid

1135
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 1: of it, but shortened it. But you know, I like

1136
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 1: the story being told in that time of the occupation. Um.

1137
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: And you know, their love actually you know, happy ending

1138
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: they both get to be together. You know, the men

1139
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 1: they die and everyone is happy who's alive? So I

1140
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: give it a solid for amazing. Yeah, well, thank you

1141
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 1: so much for joining us on this journey. Thank you

1142
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:51,200
Speaker 1: for having me. Of course. Do you have anything you'd

1143
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,760
Speaker 1: like to plug a social media or anything like that.

1144
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 1: I do not. I do not have social media. It's

1145
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 1: probably it's better that way. Wow, our bravest guess yet,

1146
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:05,880
Speaker 1: that is the healthiest thing I've ever heard in my

1147
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 1: entire life. Congratulations. Yeah, Unfortunately, we're still on social media.

1148
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,479
Speaker 1: You can find us at the Bechtel Cast on Twitter

1149
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 1: and Instagram or Bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. Oh

1150
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,960
Speaker 1: my god. You can go to our patreon ak Matreon

1151
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:31,000
Speaker 1: at Patreon dot clam dot colmom slash Bechtel Cast. This

1152
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:33,799
Speaker 1: this month on the on the Patreon, we're doing movies

1153
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 1: that have animals in them. I forget why, but we are.

1154
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 1: And so if you want to hear episodes about Stuart

1155
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:45,400
Speaker 1: Little and Babe and Babe the Pig, it's only five

1156
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 1: dollars a month and you can hear whatever that is.

1157
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 1: I mean, Jamie, it's famously Animal June. What are you

1158
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 1: talking about? It's yeah, it's Animal June, which we've observed

1159
01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:01,280
Speaker 1: for many, many years. There's all so our T public store,

1160
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 1: T public dot com, slash the Bechdel Cast where you

1161
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 1: can get all of your merchandising needs. And uh with that,

1162
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we all stopped lying to each other

1163
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:17,919
Speaker 1: and tricking each other. Let's get on a boat to Shanghai.

1164
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:20,599
Speaker 1: Let's get out of here. Let's do it. Bye bye