1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Ah Beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not 2 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software a Gradio, Special Operations 3 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: Military news and straight Talk with the guys and the 4 00:00:28,160 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: community softwarep Radio on Time on Target. This show is 5 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: brought to you by Create Club, a club four men 6 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: by men of gear handpicked by Special Operations military veterans. 7 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: Visit Great Club dot Us for an exclusive promotion for 8 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: our listeners off any gearbox of your choice. This is 9 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: the biggest discount we've ever made available, and we don't 10 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: know how long we can keep this promotion live. So 11 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: go to Create Club dot Us, use the promo code 12 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: softwrep and get off any gearbox. That's Great Club dot 13 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: Us coupon code soft rep for off any gearbox. Sign 14 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: up now. Now. I'm very excited for this episode actually 15 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: because it's actually a topic that's fascinated me for many years, 16 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: and I've watched documentaries about read books on and that's 17 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bombing. Because our writer Joseph LaFave did 18 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: an excellent interview that I actually just got finished reading 19 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: with a former d a d e. A Agent UM 20 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: Special Agent Kevin Waters, who was there at Oklahoma City 21 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: and recall stuff that basically he was kind of told 22 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: that never happened or there was no real story there. Yeah, 23 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: he Joe spent quite a while on this story and 24 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: went down to Oklahoma and he interviewed this former d 25 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: e A agent. Um, he'll he'll explain it all in depth. 26 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: But um, you know, the guy saw somebody that he 27 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: thinks may have been involved in the bombing, and the prosecution, Uh, 28 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: either they didn't follow up on it or they just 29 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 1: didn't include it in the prosecution because, um, his account, 30 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: this d A agent's account just didn't jive with all 31 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: the other accounts. So it was a piece of evidence 32 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: that they ostensibly said to the side. And as you said, um, 33 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: we'll get into it during the interview. But this is 34 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: not to be confused for those familiar with the topic, 35 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: which I confused it for with John Doe number two, 36 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: because he says he doesn't think this was John Doe 37 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: number two. He thinks that was a separate A lot 38 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: of a lot of people have written about John Doe 39 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: number two. There's been conspiracy theories, there has been credible research. 40 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: You were pointing some stuff out Ian about how it's 41 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: probably somebody's faulty memory is responsible for John what what 42 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: what we know is John Doe number two. Um, but 43 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: this is this is something completely different. This is a 44 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: new account that, at least to my knowledge, has not 45 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 1: been previously published. Um of a mysterious person um nearby 46 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: where the Oklahoma City bombing happened. Um So anyway, Yeahoe, 47 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: Joe will tell us all about it in depth. Yeah, 48 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm excited for it. And the John Doe number two thing. 49 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: It's just really interesting because it's the first time I've 50 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: looked at it in a while. And it's funny how 51 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: the account of who this guy was goes from he's 52 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: like a German born white supremacist, so he's Jose Padilla 53 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: al Kada terrorists. Like the amount of conspiracy surrounding this guy. 54 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: I remember way back in the day, like Alex Jones 55 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: would talk about that, Uh, what's the guy's name, Nusson Bomb, 56 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: nuss Burger. I'm not sure the guy that guy who 57 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: said but people said was John don't know. Oh, yeah, 58 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: we were just looking at him. You have the German guy. Yeah, 59 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: And Alex Jones said, yeah, he's like some sort of 60 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: like neo Nazi, but he's a Fed plant. The Fed 61 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: sentiment and you know, of course our federal government bombed itself. 62 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: It's a false fad. I remember that stuff from Alex Jones, 63 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: like way back in the day. You'd find like those 64 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: videos of him like ranting about it. Although, as I 65 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: was saying to you, um, the FEDS posing as white 66 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: supremacist to get an intel is not unheard of. Um. 67 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: I mean one the guy that that helped um and 68 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: this is all connected. But Ruby Ridge, the main guy, Bundy, 69 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: Uh No, he was yeah, Randy, Yeah, the guy I 70 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: mean the guy who met him and told him to 71 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: solve shotguns and all that was a you know government. Yeah, 72 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: it's the same with the j hottists. Uh. The FBI, 73 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, has been accused of grooming people like kids 74 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: who are not really inclined. Young people are not inclined 75 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: towards terrorism. And you know, some people have said the 76 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: FBI what they do is they basically create terrorists so 77 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: that they have someone to arrest and they'll like have 78 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: their assets, groom some eight nineteen year old kid for 79 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: a period of years and then you know, convinced them 80 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: like yeah, go sit off a bomb, go do this, 81 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: go do that, until they finally go and do it 82 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: and then they sweep in and arrest them and like, well, 83 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: look we arrested al KAA terrorists. It's like, well kinda 84 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: kinda yeah. This is an interesting one though that you 85 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: guys might want to look up. That I that I 86 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: found fascinating was this, Uh I was telling you before 87 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: white supremacist alleged white supremacist radio host out of New 88 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: Jersey who apparently used to call Sean Hannity all the time, 89 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: and then he kind of did his own internet radio show, uh, 90 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, talking about blacks destroying the community and stuff. 91 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: How Turner and it turned out how Turner was were 92 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: in fact work with the government, which I think is 93 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: something Alex Jones actually said and it turned out to 94 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: be true. I mean, I've come across some interesting characters. 95 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: Um once in a while. I remember actually, uh, Jim 96 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: West did like a little martial arts seminar that I 97 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: participated in. I was at. It was for a small, 98 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: small private group and it was really good. I mean 99 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: it's Jim, I mean incredible instructor. UM. So we did 100 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: our our you know, day of training, and UM at 101 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: the end, we took a group photo and there's this 102 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: guy who had been talking to Jim, who claimed he 103 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: had a military background and this and then he did 104 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: this and that and like they knew somebody in common 105 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: from way back in the day. But Jim got kind 106 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: of a weird feeling about the guy, and honestly so 107 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: did I. And Um, at the end of the training, 108 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: we we took like a group photo and then that, 109 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: and Jim emailed the photo to me like a couple 110 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: of days later, and I opened it up and I 111 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: look at the picture and I'm looking at it and 112 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 1: something jumps out right at me. I'm like, holy sh it. 113 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: So this guy, he Um, he was there with his 114 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: son in the group photo. This guy had positioned himself 115 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: so his face is directly behind his son's head, like 116 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: completely intentional. And that is not an accident. That is tradecraft. 117 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: That is like something that a person is taught to do. Like, hey, 118 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: if you're ever um socially obligated to take a photograph, 119 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: here are some things you can do to hide yourself. 120 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: You know, you can turn in the other direction, you 121 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: can put yourself behind someone else's head. Like that's something 122 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: you actually train an asset to do. And so when 123 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: I saw that photograph, I was like, oh, fuck. I 124 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, this guy's a fed, Like I bet 125 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: you he got popped um for either drugs or weapons 126 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: and they flipped them and turn them and I can't 127 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: prove it. I'm I'm speculating here. But when I saw that, 128 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, fuck, the only when as you 129 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: tell me the story, the thing, I'm wondering, what if 130 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: would it be possible he was like a stolen valor 131 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: guy and he didn't want to get caught in his 132 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: bullshit after saying he did all this stuff. Um, it 133 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: could be. It's possible. I mean maybe, but then when 134 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: you put a photo online, people go go, oh, I 135 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: know who this guy is. Sure, Um, it still seems 136 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: it struck me as a little too convenient and to 137 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: hide yourself like that behind your head. Well, his kid 138 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: was like a teenager, so he was just kind of 139 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: like squatting a little bit. Yeah, because I was thinking 140 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: it was like a young kid and he's no, no, no, no, 141 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't like a little baby like holding from himself. Um. Yeah, 142 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean maybe I'm completely wrong, but when I saw 143 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: that picture, I was like, oh, fuck, it's very suspicious. Yeah, 144 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: definitely suspicious. All right, Well, anyway, I'm looking forward to 145 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: getting there, but that's a crazy story, man um looking 146 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: forward to getting over to Joe before we do. We 147 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: got two emails here, two really good emails uh set 148 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: to soft rep dot Radio at soft rep dot com. 149 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: This first one is from Dave Ian and Jack. I've 150 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: been listening to the podcast for about a year and 151 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you guys for the great interviews 152 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: and thought provoking sidebars. I'm catching up some episodes after 153 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: getting back from some training. I'm an Army reservist with 154 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: an m I unit out of Queens. I just finished 155 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: listening to episode four seven. I'm a New Yorker through 156 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: and through, and I love hearing about New Yorkers who 157 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: are in the soft community. It's something you really never 158 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: hear about. I also appreciate hearing from minorities within the 159 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: soft community, being Puerto Rican and from the Bronx. The 160 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: military isn't something we're exposed to, and, to be quite frank, 161 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: something many of us don't think we can do. Never 162 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: ever would I uh never ever would I ever imagine 163 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: being in the i C. My question for Jack is, 164 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: in your opinion, how can the d O D do 165 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: a better job of recruiting future soft intelligence professionals from 166 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: New York and minorities. By the way, I'm a cop 167 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: and White Plains And if you guys have I think 168 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: you mean to say end you guys have some fans 169 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: in the department. Uh. If you guys find yourself in 170 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: the area, you know, first rounds on me, respectfully, Dan Cool. Yeah, 171 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: thanks for writing in, Dave. I uh was just thinking 172 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: about White Plains because I you know, I grew up 173 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: in the area, and I actually I saw this documentary 174 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: on Voice of America talking about um, how shopping malls 175 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: are dying all across America. I saw you post it, 176 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: and it made me think about the Galleria Mall in 177 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: White Plains, which I used to go to all the 178 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: time when I was a kid with my parents or 179 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: with my mom. It's funny, you know, it's funny for 180 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: me to hear that just Sidebars is where I live. 181 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: There's a mall that's like getting shut down and reconstructed. 182 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: But then there's Roosevelt Field Mall, which I feel like 183 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: we'll never die because it's just like one of the 184 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: biggest malls. It's famous. I like, you go there in 185 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: a weekend, it's packed still yeah, some I mean some 186 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: of them will shut down and some of them will 187 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: continue because like you said, like they're two, they're so big, 188 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: and they're you know, it's like the only game in town. 189 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: You know, We're like mall of America that will never 190 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: go away. Um, Like in west Chester there's the Um 191 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: and White Plains. They built a second mall and like 192 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: I guess the late ninet nineties called the west Chester. 193 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: How pretentious is that the west Chester? And you go 194 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: in there and it's like a museum to Louis Vatan handbags. 195 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: It's like a bunch of like high end hoity toity 196 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: kind of like fashion stuff, like things that you should 197 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: you can look at, but you can't touch. I grew 198 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: up right by the Americana, which is the epitome of that. Really. 199 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if you ever listened to um It's still 200 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: rock and Roll to me by Billy Joel where he 201 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: says do you want to cruise the Miracle Mile? That's 202 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: the Miracle Miles the Americana, which is literally walking distance 203 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: from the house I grew up. Yeah. So uh um, 204 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: good question, Uh, Dave, thanks for writing in. I mean, 205 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: if I got to play like uh, you know, God 206 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: for a day, or use a WRECT commander for a day. UM. 207 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: Probably what I would think about doing is more community 208 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: outreach UM like UM, for instance, the DARE program. So 209 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: you know the DARE program. I think we can say 210 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: that it's failed to stop drug use, but what it 211 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: did do is it introduced children to their police department, UM, 212 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: which was great. UM. I think that's a really positive 213 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: aspect of that program. Is like you get to meet 214 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: a police officer and you get to see who he is, 215 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: and he can tell you some cops stories and you 216 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: can come to realize that this guy is a part 217 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: of your community. UM. So that's a very positive thing 218 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: about the their program. And I think maybe the military, 219 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: and I mean the you know, the liberals, they'll complain 220 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: about this, they won't like it, but I mean, I 221 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: think I I have to think there's a role for 222 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: the military to be able to go into schools UM 223 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: in a similar way, and not to indoctrinate kids or 224 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: anything like that, but just to like inform them like, hey, 225 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, we have a military with almost you know, 226 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: a million people in it. UM. There are all these 227 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: different options and this is this is what the military does. 228 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: This is what it doesn't do, you know, just just 229 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: sort of an educational experience so that kids are aware of, 230 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, that we have soldiers and what they do, 231 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: and and that can have all kinds of great impacts 232 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: from UM, not just recruiting, but also that you have 233 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: a better educated and informed electorate down the line that 234 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, has some a little bit more knowledge about 235 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: their military. UM, because it's one of those things that's 236 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: like out of sight, out of mind. And if you've 237 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: never met a soldier, if you don't have, UM, someone 238 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: who served in your family, which is becoming, you know, 239 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: increasingly rare. It's like, what is the statistic like point 240 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: zero five percent of Americans joined the military. I've always 241 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: heard it's incredibly small today. UM. So, I mean informing 242 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: Americans about these things is very important. But that's that 243 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: would be my answer. I would look at setting up 244 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: some kind of a program where not just like recruiters 245 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: go into the school to do a recruiting drive, but 246 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: when you take soldiers like you know, just it can 247 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: it could be special opera rations guys, or it could 248 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: be UM. Ideally, I think it's better to be like 249 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: a mix. You know, you have like one guy from 250 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: the infantry, one guy from soft one guy who's military intelligence, 251 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, one guy who is a is a mechanic, 252 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: you know that kind of thing, and just go in 253 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: and have like an educational experience with kids, where like 254 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: the soldiers come in every once in a while, um, 255 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: and talk to them. And I think through that you 256 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: would do a much better job at recruiting period. Um. 257 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: But to include minorities, um, you know women. You know, 258 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: the military is still kind of seen as a masculine profession. Um, 259 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: why not kind of just tell kids that these doors 260 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: are open to them if they want to go through. Yeah, 261 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: that sounds like a smart idea to me. Um, all right, 262 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: I don't see why not. Also, probably as you have 263 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: more and more guys writing books that that aren't always 264 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: white males, that it's a way of you know, Amber 265 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: Smith writing a book, for example, the way of saying like, here, 266 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: you don't have to be a man to do this, 267 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: You don't have to be a white man to do this. Yeah. Yeah, 268 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: that's the perception. It's not the reality though. I Mean, 269 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: there are a lot of minorities in the military, and 270 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: even contrary to some of the criticisms that are made 271 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: of special operations. I mean, I think we are still 272 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: you know, overwhelmingly white, but there's still a lot of 273 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: minorities and special operations and it kind of, honestly, it 274 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: kind of pisces me off that people make it out 275 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: like it's just white men and it just isn't It's 276 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: just not true. I think this probably connects with the military. 277 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: Remember reading about this In New York City in particular, 278 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: they had a problem with um less minorities in the 279 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: fire department. And the reason why, you know, it wasn't 280 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: necessarily because of like discrimination on testing and stuff like that. 281 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: It was a lot of the time that you know, 282 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: this guy's father had a position at the fire department 283 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: and it was like, hey, it's a it's a legacy thing, yeah, 284 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: or you know, hey i'll help you out with your son, 285 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, getting into the fire department favorite type of thing. 286 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: And for example, when you hear of like Ruman Terius 287 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: who's been on the show, whose father was a Navy 288 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: seal's grandfather was a Navy seal, there aren't really black 289 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: or Hispanic families like that, or Latino families like that. 290 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: So I think probably as time goes on, you'll see 291 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: more diversity. Yeah, I think so for sure. Um. And 292 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: when I talk about diversity, I don't I'm not one 293 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: of these people that likes to talk about it or 294 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: or use it as a cheap buzzword, um, to make 295 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: me feel good about myself, or to try to sell 296 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: people something. I think diversity is good in the military 297 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: in the sense that it brings in a diversity of 298 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas. But also, as I've talked about in 299 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the past, there are things that a woman can do 300 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: in a military context that I can't do. Um. There 301 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: are things that you know, a five foot tall Mexican 302 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: or a Mexican American can go places and do things 303 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: that I can't do. I mean just thinking tunnels. I 304 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: was not talking about sucking tunnels. There's probably spaces that 305 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: that a six foot told Jack dude cannot get into. 306 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: Well well, yeah, okay, I was thinking in a in 307 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: a much larger context that, um, someone a person of 308 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: color can blend in in many different cultures that I 309 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: can't blend into unless you want to infiltrate the I 310 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: r a I'm fucking worthless and or a white supremacist rally. Uh. 311 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: But even then, if you sent me to like to Ireland. 312 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: The second I opened my mouth, people are gonna know 313 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm full of ship so um. Yeah, there's a lot 314 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: of things that a guy that looks like me UM 315 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: can't do. I mean, I can't go places and collect 316 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: intel um in an unassuming manner the way I think 317 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: a woman could. UM. So, I think recruiting people from 318 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 1: a diverse background brings a lot to a team UM, 319 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: and I think it just helps our our capabilities, enhances 320 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: our capabilities over the long haul. Yeah, alright, next one 321 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: here is from Cynthia Um. And it's good because we've 322 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: been talking so much about the sett of Gallagher stuff. So, guys, 323 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: awesome conversation with Rob O'Neill. I share his concern about 324 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: the confinement of a US elite warrior without due process. 325 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: In the civilian world. There would be a holy ship 326 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: storm if that happened. What is the recourse or procedure 327 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: for any operator that is serious concerns about leadership? Did 328 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: the teams? Did the team seals exhaust those avenues before 329 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: they went public with allegations against Gallagher of war crimes? 330 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, Cynthia. Well, I mean people are gonna get 331 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: upset and dispute things. But I mean, has he been 332 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: deprived of due process? No? Yeah, I mean so I 333 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: understand that his family is understandably upset that this guy 334 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: has been confined for like what eight months or something 335 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: like that. Like, I get it, Like, I understand why 336 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: they're upset by that. Um, But he hasn't been deprived 337 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: of his due process. It's just taken a long time 338 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: to get to trial, probably because there's um allegedly there 339 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: were attempts to cover up alleged crimes. That adds more 340 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: time into you know, process um processing evidence and things 341 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: like this. It takes a lot longer to go through everything. Um. 342 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: So I'm sure that factors into it. And in the 343 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: civilian world, if you get arrested, um of of an 344 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: alleged violent crime, I mean, they're not necessarily going to 345 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: bond you out. I mean, it depends on circumstances. And 346 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not necessarily the best 347 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: person to answer that question. But I mean, we see 348 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: people confined in prison until their court date. Well you 349 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: know what that happens all the time. You're talking about 350 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: violent violent crime or alleged violent crime. Um So, yeah, 351 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: I don't really know that he's been deprived of his 352 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: due process. And even just like different uh, different views 353 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: in the court of public opinion isn't necessarily going to 354 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: sway the way a frial goes. I mean, the one 355 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: that sticks out to me was jesse v. Tour and 356 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: Chris Kyle. And I think jesse Ventura rightfully said like, hey, 357 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 1: this is this beloved Navy ceo. I'm looked at as 358 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: this like nut job basically, And jesse Ventura won his case, 359 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: even though in the court of public opinion, um, Chris 360 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: Kyle's is a more loved American I guess yeah. And 361 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: there's I mean, courts are about establishing facts. It's not 362 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: about who's better. Like that's not like a high school 363 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: popularity contest, or at least it shouldn't be if it 364 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: if it becomes that, it's a it's a perversion of justice. Um. 365 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: And And there's also when they do pick jurors and 366 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: all that. I bet you there's I mean, I would 367 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: assume it's a huge population who is no familiarity with 368 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: this case whatsoever. So it's actually not like a high 369 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: profile case where everybody already has their opinions way before 370 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: they walk in the courtroom. And when I hear about 371 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: when they found jurors for like the O. J. Simpson case, 372 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: that did anybody really walk in there without any bias? 373 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: And what actually happens? You know, I don't know about 374 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: the juror selection. Um. I know they try to find 375 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: people who haven't been you know, quote unquote contaminated. But yeah, 376 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. UM. Yeah, it's a it's a fucked 377 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: up situation anyway you cut it. UM. I was reading 378 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: in the Navy Times yesterday that the investigation into the 379 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: Eddie Gallagher cases expanded to include members of Seal Team six. UM. 380 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: Because what I took away from the article was that 381 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: it was it was alleged that Gallagher was contacting members 382 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: of dev Group UM to try to get them to 383 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: help him retaliate against people who are making accusations against him. Um. 384 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: And again, these are things that the prosecution has to investigate, 385 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,239 Speaker 1: the defense has to you know, make their their own investigations. 386 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: The judge has to weigh in and see if the 387 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: evidence is admissible. I mean, all this ship takes time, um, 388 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: and it's unfortunate. And you know, like I said, I 389 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: mean I understand why why his family is upset by this. 390 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: I mean from their perspective, you know their dad is 391 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: in prison. I mean it's fucking horrible. Yeah, all right, Um, well, 392 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: thanks for sending those emails in soft Rep dot Radio 393 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: at soft rep dot com, and I'm excited to bring 394 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: Joseph on and get right into uh some interesting stuff 395 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: and some stuff you've never heard before, unless, of course, 396 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: you've read this article um about the Oklahoma City bombing. 397 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: Joining us back on SOFTWAREP Radio Joseph LaFave at lafav 398 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: Joseph on Twitter News Rep writer, and I actually just 399 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: got done this morning reading your article, which is an 400 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: exclusive a former d E A agents chilling firsthand account 401 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: of the Oklahoma City bombing, which is an interview with 402 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: special Agent Kevin Waters. I'm really excited to talk about this, 403 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: as I kind of said to you, as Jack knows, 404 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: this is a subject that's always fascinated me. I've read 405 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: a lot about it, seeing some documentaries on it. So 406 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: let's get right into the article itself. How did you 407 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: meet Kevin and how did this all come about? Kevin 408 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: was my domestic terrorism professor when I was a student 409 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: at Florida State, so he was like a really he 410 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: was a really cool professor and one I really got 411 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: along with. And we had three units in the class. 412 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: So the first unit was about eco terrorism and like 413 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: the Animal Liberation Front and Earth Liberation Front. The second 414 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: one was about um I think they're Christian fundamentalists or 415 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: Christian separatists. They're kind of up in the northern part 416 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: of the country, and they kind of are aligned with 417 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: the Sovereign Citizen Movement I believe, kind of that whole 418 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: anti government group. And the third was about specifically Timothy 419 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing because he had you know, 420 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: he was assigned to the you know alphad people our 421 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: building in Oklahoma City when the bombing happened. It just 422 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: kind of by coincidence, he wasn't at the office yet. 423 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: So yeah, he told us that story when I was 424 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: in class, and it always had resid dated with me 425 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: because it was, like, I mean, it was such an 426 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 1: intense story, uh, you know, not only him digging through 427 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: the wreckage and trying to help find his friends, but 428 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: you know the years afterwards where he was riddled with 429 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: guilt because he had seen McVeigh the night before and um, 430 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: I actually hadn't talked to him in a long time, 431 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: And when I came on staff and news Wrap, I 432 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: reached out to him and I said, Hey, is this 433 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: something you'd be willing to talk about? He said absolutely. Um, 434 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: you know from his from his point of view, you know, 435 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: he said that talking about it helps him heal, and 436 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: I think that healing is an ongoing process for him. 437 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: So that's how I met Kevin. Yeah, it's a really 438 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: incredible story. Um. You know, I was even kind of 439 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: skeptical when you first told me about it, because I 440 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: know there had been rumors and conspiracies and so on 441 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: about so called John Doe number two, and I thought 442 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: that's what you were referencing at first, But this is 443 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: actually a totally separate story from that. Yeah, so I 444 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: was confused as well. Actually, when I talked to him, 445 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: you know, I said, oh, so you saw John Doe 446 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: number two. He said, no, no, No, there's a is 447 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: a John Doe number three that's never been identified or 448 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: talked about, and that's the guy he saw with McVeigh 449 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: the night before. So it's kind of go ahead, Yeah, well, 450 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: go ahead and walk us through this whole story. I mean, 451 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: where was this guy? What did he see? Yeah, so 452 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: Kevin was a d a special agent assigned with the 453 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: Oklahoma City Field Office out there and UM. You know, 454 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: during the time, during that really nineties, each of the 455 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: special agents assigned to the field loft pad their own specialty. 456 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: You know, one officer or one agent worked you know, 457 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: counter marijuana and UM went after the importers from Mexico, 458 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: and one worked UM crack cocaine, and one worked methomphetamines, 459 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: and one you know, they had agents there that also 460 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: investigated prescription drugs. They're called diversion agents. Kevin's specialty or 461 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: his assignment was crack cocaine. Got a partner and they 462 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: had a task force made up of him and his partner, Jimmy, 463 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: and some local officers from the Oklahoma City Police Department 464 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: and the Sheriff's artman. So, on April night or the 465 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: day before the bombing, so I think the bombing was 466 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: the nineteen him and his partner made a giant crack 467 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: co cane by from a major dealer in the city. 468 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: Ended up arresting him. That was later, that was around 469 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: in the late afternoon. They arrested him. They took him 470 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: to the Oklahoma City Police Department jail. Then Kevin said Hey, 471 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: I got to go to the office and uh, you know, 472 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: get a few things. You know, you need needed to 473 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: get a camera, and you needed to get a couple 474 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: of forms, like for fingerprints and stuff like that. So 475 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: don't to the office. And he looked at the wall. 476 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: He looked at the clock, and it was getting close 477 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: to ten thirty. And his wife, who was a nurse 478 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: of the time, work night shift. She left the house 479 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: at ten thirty, so he was like, I gotta get 480 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: home to see her off. So he was kind of 481 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: in a hurry. So it leads his office, which is 482 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 1: on the I think the top floor of the Mirror building, 483 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: and he walks down to the parking garage, which is 484 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the building but street level, and 485 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: it's actually still there today and still in use by 486 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: the Federal courthouse across the street. But he goes to 487 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: the parking garage and he was very specific on how 488 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: the how the garage worked. He had to go up 489 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: to it with this real thick almost like a credit 490 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: card and stick it in the slot and it would 491 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: open real slowly, and he was it was like nine 492 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: thirty at night, there's no one around, and he's just 493 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: kind of hanging out waiting for the door to open 494 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: by his car, and as the door gets three quarters 495 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: of the way up, he sees a vehicle out there, 496 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: and or he's two vehicles out there, and he sees 497 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: two guys sitting in one vehicle. But he said to me, 498 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: it was very clear that the man in the passenger 499 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: seat that was in mcveigh's car, that you know, like 500 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: that real beatle car. When you say mcveigh's car, what 501 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: what do you mean? I mean how he didn't know 502 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: it was mcveigh's car at the time. Yeah, So at 503 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: the time, he just thought he was two guys and um, 504 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: he said to me that they were just eyeballing him. 505 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: He said, I fucking there, I fuck And he you know, 506 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: he stared back in. His first thought was, oh my god, 507 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: these are hitman hired by the guy just arrested. They're 508 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: coming to kill me. So he kind of stares him down, 509 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: and you know, he doesn't reach for his gun or anything, 510 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: but he kind of motions towards his gun and they 511 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: kind of are locked in the staring contest and he, 512 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, he doesn't he's never seen these guys before, um, 513 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: and they just stare at him. And he's like, you know, 514 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: after a couple of seconds of just that real intense 515 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: eye contact, he gets in his car and he drives 516 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: past him real slow, and they kind of make, you know, 517 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: eye contact like in the cop movies, you know, where 518 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: the cops drive by real slow and give you the 519 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: side eye. He kind of gave him the side eye, 520 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: and he drove around the corner and he calls up 521 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: his partner. He says, hey, you're never gonna believe this, 522 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: and the partner says what. He goes, there's two fucking 523 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: hitman out front of the Borough Building. And this partner says, 524 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know 525 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: what a hitman looks like. You know, you're probably paranoid 526 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: or something. And he says, yeah, you're right, and he 527 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: and he thinks about, you know, going over there and 528 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: jamming him up and making a stop. He's got that 529 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: that deadline to hey, he's got to be home, so 530 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: he says, screw. He reports he got the license plate, 531 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: and he reported it to the Oklahoma City Police Department, 532 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: goes to the jail, takes a picture of the of 533 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: their suspect, goes home and because he worked late that night. UM, 534 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: in the morning, he kind of was like, I'm going 535 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: to show up at the office a little bit in 536 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 1: the morning, and he's taking a shower about twenty miles 537 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: from Oklahoma City to the north west, you know, and 538 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: he feels the explosion, but he doesn't know what it is, obviously, 539 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: and this was before cell phones and things like that, 540 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: and you know, he gets dressed, he heads into work 541 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: and he's driving to work and his patrol car, his 542 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: d A car, has a radio and that's when he 543 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: gets to call him there's been an explosion of the 544 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: Murror building. So he hits the lights and the halls 545 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: ass into the city and by the time he got there, 546 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: which was about twenty or thirty minutes after the initial 547 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: after the explosion, UM, he tried to get of the building, 548 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: but the Oklahoma City Police Department had it blocked off 549 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: for evidence. And he says he got out of the car, 550 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: parked his car and he goes charging through the you 551 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: know that do not cross line and some guy says, hey, 552 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: you can't go there, and he fires back. I'm you know, 553 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm d e A. And the guy who fired back, 554 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: I was actually the chief of Oklahoma City Police so 555 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: they kind of knew each other, and he let him 556 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: go and he goes to the Mirror building and he says, 557 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: when he turned the corner to go up the street, 558 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: he sees the back of the or the front of 559 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: the back of the building, which is you know, if 560 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: you've seen the picture, just completely gone. Yeah, it's the back. 561 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: So what he was he on the side that the 562 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: detonation had occurred or not. Yeah, So he walks up 563 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: the street facing the side where the detonation. Okay, okay, 564 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: so he sees that half the building's missing. Yeah, he's 565 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: just oh my god, you know, he said it looked 566 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: like beyrout. There was cars overturned, fires, burning bodies, and 567 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City Fire Department had kind of just gotten 568 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: there and we're you know, starting search and rescue. And 569 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: he looks up to where you know, he knows the offices, 570 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: and it's all gone. I mean, he's just completely gone. 571 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: And he thinks, all my all my friends are dead. 572 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: So he runs runs down the street and he turns 573 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: the corner to the front of the building and he uh, 574 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, tries to make his way into the building, 575 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: which the front of the building is covered with rubbles, 576 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: so he's kind of trying to dig his way through 577 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: the rubble and then finally he realized he can't. That's 578 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: not going to happen. So he turns around and he 579 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: sees a guy he works with, one of the d 580 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: A I think it was his partner, and his partners 581 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: standing by this flagpole, which is still there today, walking 582 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: in circles, kind of muttering to himself. Uh, and Kevin 583 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: said he was obviously in shock. So Kevin goes over 584 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: there and he tries to get him out of it, like, 585 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: hey man, you gotta like, we gotta get it together. 586 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: We've got a job to do. And just then one 587 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: of the other d A. I don't think she was 588 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: a special aged I think she was like man admin 589 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: or something like that. She ran over she was at 590 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: the courthouse. And the three of them kind of regrouped 591 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: and said, all right, we know the three of us 592 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: are alive. Let's try to find the rest of our people. 593 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: And you know, this is just minutes from the blast. 594 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: And he said when he turned that corner, before he 595 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: even tried to make him in the building, and that 596 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: sidewalk is still there today, there was about twenty bodies 597 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: already laid out on the sidewalk, um side by side, 598 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: and he says, the first body that he saw was 599 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: a blonde woman and he thought, oh my god, that's Carol, 600 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: which is a woman he worked with. So he leaned 601 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: down and he you know, moved her, moved the body's 602 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: face so he could see it. He goes, thank god, 603 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: it's not her. You know. He keeps checking each body 604 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: as he goes along for people he knew, and they had, um, 605 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, the bodies of the kids, which were obviously 606 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: a lot smaller because I think, you know that we're 607 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: McVeigh detonated the bomb. He was almost at right at 608 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: where the daycare was, in the mirror building, so I 609 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: think most if not all of the little kids that 610 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: were at daycare that day and the marble and died. Um. 611 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: So he regroups with two people and they ran into 612 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: two more admin from the d E A one of 613 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: them who was actually stuck in the elevator when the 614 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: bomb happened. He was able to get out, but that's 615 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,719 Speaker 1: the only thing that saved him is that the he 616 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: was still in the elevator when the bomb went off. 617 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: It was like, you know, right before the doors opened, 618 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: is when it detonated and if he had, you know, 619 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: a couple of seconds sooner, he would have been and 620 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: the cable didn't get cut. Yeah, yeah, that would have 621 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: been also horrible and a fear. So he that guy 622 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: finally managed to climb down, and Kevin said, you know, 623 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: we got to get up to the office. And uh, 624 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: the guy said, Kevin, you know, you know the office 625 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: is gone and um, Kevin said, you know, well to 626 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: the guys who went, you know, did they go quick? 627 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: And he said, but the families asked yes. But between 628 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: me and you, I heard the explosion. I heard them 629 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: screaming on the other side. And that's when I heard 630 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: the collapse, and which is really intense. And and and 631 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: while we're interviewing him, we're at the site, we're at 632 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: the memorial. Um. So he's able to point, you know, 633 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: the parking right is still there. She was able to 634 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: point to the exact, you know, the exact location on 635 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: the street where he saw those cars. And he's able 636 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: to point to the exact location, you know, where he 637 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: saw as his first friend who was in shock. And 638 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: he's able to point to the exact location where the 639 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 1: bodies were. It's a very time Joe that you've been 640 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: to the Murray Building. Yeah, it's my first time, actually 641 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: my first time in Oklahoma period. What was How did 642 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,959 Speaker 1: you feel being there? I mean, because like it's something 643 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: we've read about our whole lives pretty much. Yes, I 644 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: was five when the bombing happened, so I had, you know, 645 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: I had known about it, and I had ever since 646 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: I had taken uh Professor waters Is class, I'd be 647 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: really interested in it. But this was my first time 648 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: out to the Murror Building, and it was very somber. 649 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: It was like, you know, it was January saw the 650 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: Grass is Dead, and it was a Sunday. It was 651 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: really really quiet. I mean, it's like, ye, really quiet, 652 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: especially because it's in the middle of Oklahoma City. Uh 653 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, but there's just a few people walking around. 654 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: And the memorial they were the building was they erected 655 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: two large stone arches, and in between the arches is 656 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: a real long reflection pool um and then on the 657 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: side of the reflection pool they have little bronze chairs 658 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: which I took a picture of him putting the article, 659 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: and each chair statue represents one of the victims. And 660 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: what's really spooky is the for the children who died. 661 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: They made little smaller chairs you can visually see, you know, 662 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: the portion of the total casualties that were children, Yeah, 663 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: which was a lot. And for those who don't know, 664 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: people dead, nearly seven people injured. I think it's six 665 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: eighties something. Um, you know, and it's the deadliest incident 666 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: of domestic terrorism in US history still to this day, right, 667 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: and yeah, and and and he was, you know, Kevin was. 668 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: You could tell he was getting pretty emotional, especially when 669 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: it got to the parts where, um, you know, he 670 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: found his friends and where the bodies were and um. 671 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: So after he grouped up these three people and then 672 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: rendezvoused with two more d A employees who had survived, 673 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: they moved around to the blast side of the building 674 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: again and he said, this man came running up to 675 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: him and the guy said, are you Kevin? And he said, yeah, 676 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 1: you know, I'm Kevin. What's up? And the guy said, 677 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm Rona's husband. And Rohna was I think she was 678 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: a sheriff deputy who was on their crack cocaine task force. 679 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 1: And um, Kevin said, well, you know, good to meet 680 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: you man. And Rhona had been in the office during 681 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 1: the attack. She was obviously dead, and her husband said 682 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: to Kevin, give it to me straight. Is is my 683 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: wife alive? And Kevin's no, I'm sorry, and the guy said, well, 684 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate the straight answer, and he was. 685 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: Everyone was in shock, you know. So there wasn't a 686 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: ton of crying and and oh my god, it was 687 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: just a state of shock. And Kevin said, we're going 688 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: to get out of here and regroup down the street 689 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: at the police department. Why don't you come with us. 690 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: So Kevin kind of leads this caravan of people to 691 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: the police department, where they kind of spent the rest 692 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: of the day trying to account for all the staff 693 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: they had and they realized that they had lost five employees. 694 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: That's just insane. Man. Yeah, it was heavy, like it 695 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 1: was really just doing the interview with him was really heavy. Um, 696 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,359 Speaker 1: you know I was. I was glad to do it, 697 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: and you know, like like I asked him towards the 698 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: end of the towards the end of the interview, I said, man, 699 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: are you like this is intense? Are you okay talking 700 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: about this? And he said, yeah, it helps me and 701 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the guys he said that survived it, 702 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, never talked about it, and they had a 703 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: lot of issues, and Kevin had a lot of issues 704 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: as well, trying to deal and reconcile with the fact 705 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: that he, in his mind, could have stopped it. And 706 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: I'll get to that. I guess I'll get to that 707 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: in a minute. Well, you know, I also want to 708 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: point out that, you know, I'm I'm thankful to Kevin 709 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: for talking to you about this, and um, you know, 710 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: just it just brings to mind, you know, just yesterday 711 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 1: I was having this conversation because Facebook made this big 712 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: decision that like, hey, we're gonna ban any sort of 713 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: like white nationalist content or you won't be able to 714 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: search for it and this kind of thing. So I 715 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: understand the rationale behind it, but from my point of view, 716 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: I want people to know what some scumbag like Tim 717 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: McVeigh did, Like I don't want to sugarcoat it. I 718 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: don't want to hide it, like you should know that 719 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: that motherfucker killed a bunch of kids, that he murdered 720 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: a bunch of innocent people, And I don't want to 721 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: whitewash any of it. You know what. It reminds me 722 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: of Jack uh inglorious bastards when He asked him if 723 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: I let you go, are you're gonna take this uniform off? 724 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: And he says, I'll learn it. He goes, yeah, that's 725 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,240 Speaker 1: what I was afraid of. So it's it's almost good 726 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: you know that we're able to you know, if we 727 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: allow these people to share you know, white nationalists stuff 728 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: and swastik isn't ship at least we know, you know, 729 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: at least we know who they are because like I think, 730 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 1: like you pointed out, you're just gonna drive an underground Yeah, 731 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: because you drive them off the platform, the next place 732 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 1: they're gonna go is going to be encrypted more than likely. 733 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they're gonna get a little bit wiser to things, 734 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: and uh it makes it harder and harder to track 735 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:39,919 Speaker 1: them and what they're doing. Because I mean it's great 736 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: and all, like okay, yeah, we shut we you know, 737 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: we d platform these idiots off of you know, Facebook 738 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: or Twitter or whatever. But now it's like when you 739 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: shut down back page and Craigslist. No, I mean, human 740 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: trafficking in that case is not going away. I mean, 741 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 1: you know, Nazism is not going away. It's just gonna 742 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: go somewhere else in we don't know where that somewhere 743 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: else is that's the problem, and it's definitely definitely tougher 744 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: to track things on the dark web that public place 745 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: like face. So I mean, okay, you know, you made 746 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: yourself feel good that you kicked them off Facebook. That's great. 747 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: But you know what would make me feel even better 748 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: is if we knew where they were at and there 749 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: was an FBI agent looking over their shoulder every step 750 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: of the way. Right. You know, I don't know if 751 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,439 Speaker 1: on Facebook part, on Facebook's part, it is just they're 752 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: going for the pr value. Think it's really just Huberous said, 753 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: they think, oh, if we d platforms people from Facebook, 754 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: they will cease to exist. No, No, I think it's 755 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: purely pr that that it's become such an issue that 756 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: they had to make a little response and you know 757 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: everyone will, you know, will clap their hands and say, oh, 758 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: how progressive. That's great. Um, but I still think, um, 759 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, and we'll get back into this because I do, 760 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's crazy things in this article, But um, 761 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: I do think Mark Zuckerberg in particular feels some guilt 762 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: over the election of Trump, and he feels like his 763 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: platform in some way helped that. And Mark Zuckerberg is 764 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: definitely not a guy who voted for Trump. Yeah, but 765 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: they it's like we have this conversation before with like 766 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: d platforming people like Alex Jones. It's like they there's 767 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: no consistency. It's just someone who gets big enough and 768 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 1: comes into the public eye. Then they make a decision 769 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: because it's reached that level. So I mean, it's purely 770 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: a pr move. It's not a consistent like no conspiracy 771 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: theorists on our platform. It's like that guy got too 772 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: much attention, so we're taking him down. Um, and we 773 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: do know as a fact that Russia bought ads for 774 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: just not just things about the election of Donald Trump, 775 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: they also were buying things in regards to Black Lives Matter, 776 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: and think we know that just discord and that wouldn't 777 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: have happened without the platform. So I do think there's 778 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,280 Speaker 1: some internal guilt in that there. Um. But any anyway, 779 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: let's get let's get back to Kevin's story. We're getting 780 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,800 Speaker 1: a little off over sure, And actually from where you 781 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: were going show was like in the article he talks 782 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: of out on on some level, being suicidal for surviving 783 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: what he did and feeling like he could have prevented 784 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: what happened. Yeah, so the day goes so, you know, 785 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: pick it back up at the police station. The day 786 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: goes by. McVeigh gets arrested later that day in an 787 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: unrelated traffic stop North araicle because he didn't have his 788 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 1: license plate on, right, Yeah, I didn't have his license 789 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: plate on, which is um. You know, that's kind of 790 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 1: a key point in Kevin's story that I questioned because 791 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: Kevin said that it was the same car that he 792 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 1: was arrested in that he saw the night before. And 793 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 1: when Kevin saw it, he had a license plate because 794 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: he wrote down the license plate number. So at some 795 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: point he must have taken the plate off. UM. But anyways, yeah, 796 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: mcveighets arrested. Uh, you know, a couple of days later, 797 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: they connect him to the bombing and his face is 798 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: all over UM TV. But Kevin doesn't connected to you know, 799 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: at this point, he's not thinking about the two thugs 800 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: he saw them that before. He's thinking about the incident, 801 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, And I think, you know, for a lot 802 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: of people, and you know my self, when I look 803 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: at some of the different things and calls I've been 804 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: to as an e M T, you know, I don't 805 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,879 Speaker 1: really remember, you know, exactly what I was doing right 806 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: before the call, but I remember very vis really what 807 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: I was doing, you know, when I got there, and 808 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,919 Speaker 1: then what happened afterwards. So you know, it makes sense 809 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: that Kevin didn't connect the two at the time, and 810 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't until a month later. So when the FBI, 811 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: when an FBI investigator finally made the rounds down to 812 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 1: the d e A office which had now moved down 813 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 1: the street past the mur building in the Social Security office, um, 814 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: and the FBI agents interviewing all the survivors, and Kevin 815 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,799 Speaker 1: goes last, and it's you could tell. Kevin said that 816 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: he could tell the FBI agent was just kind of 817 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: going to the motions and they weren't expecting to find 818 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: any new information. And one of the questions was had 819 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: you ever seen McVeigh before, And he's got a picture 820 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: of him, and Kevin goes no, and he kind of 821 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: pauses and goes, oh, well wait, yeah, I saw that 822 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: guy the night before, and he said, you could see 823 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: the agent's eyes like light up, and um, you know, 824 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: he calls Jimmy and he's like, hey, you remember when 825 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: I said, you know about the hitman? And he goes, yeah, 826 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: I remember that phone call. He said that was McVeigh. 827 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: And he goes, no way, and he goes, look, this 828 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,240 Speaker 1: is the guy I saw. And um. So the FBI 829 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: agent starts, you know, vigorously taking notes and takes a statement. 830 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: But it ended up what Kevin was told later on 831 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,439 Speaker 1: that that information that he provided would have hurt the 832 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: government's case against McVeigh, and it ultimately Terry Nichols because 833 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: it places the third co conspirator um or fourth depending 834 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: how you look at it, but it places another co 835 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: conspirator in the mix that isn't accounted for. So the 836 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 1: government ultimately told Kevin, um, you know, we're not going 837 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,919 Speaker 1: to pursue this lead because it doesn't help our case. 838 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: It doesn't I think, I think as words where it 839 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 1: doesn't fit are the story we're trying to tell. So 840 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: once Kevin connects the dots, you know, oh my god. 841 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: You know, if I would have spent a little bit 842 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: more time that night, or investigate a little bit further 843 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: or not, you know, how to rush home, maybe maybe 844 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: I could have prevented it. And it's a big maybe 845 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: and I don't, um, you know, from an outsider's perspective, 846 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,799 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think there's any way he could 847 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: have known, um, but I'm sure and and he does. 848 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: You know, he feels you know, he feels horrible, especially 849 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: because all his friends died, and he kind of just spirals, 850 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: spirals down. You know, he takes takes up alcoholism, and 851 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: like he told me, you know, and I asked them, 852 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: you know, what was it like? Afterwards? He said it 853 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: was horrible. You know. He would come home from work 854 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: every day and put the you know, like he said, 855 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: he said, he put the gun to his head and 856 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: to think about killing himself. But then he here his 857 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: kids crying or talking in the next room, and he 858 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't want them to hear the shots and find his body, 859 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: and that, um, well this is the only thing that 860 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,280 Speaker 1: prevented them. But he said he was, you know, definitely 861 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 1: an alcoholic. But eventually he after a three or four 862 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: years of just straight alcohol abut um, you know, he 863 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: decided to leave the d e A. He got sober, 864 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: and he took a position. He actually went back for 865 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 1: his masters at Florida State University UM and then ultimately 866 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: when he finished his programs there, he was brought on faculty. 867 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: So that's where I met him Um probably six years 868 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: after he had first left the d A and Um 869 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 1: started teaching at Florida State. I am glad that there's 870 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: like a positive, you know, somewhat positive end to this story. Obviously, 871 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 1: you can never undo what's been done and his friends dying, 872 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: but the fact that he continues to live and tell 873 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: his story and find a new career is great. Uh. 874 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: The thing I wanted to get into though, is there's 875 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, I I do, of course believe that Kevin 876 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: is telling what he accounts for the truth. But the 877 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,959 Speaker 1: interesting thing is that there's been so many crazy John 878 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 1: Doe number two stories, as we all know. I was 879 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,320 Speaker 1: looking some of this up before we did the show, 880 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, connecting him with terrorist Jose Padilla. And then 881 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: in the recent Flix documentary that just came out a 882 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: couple of years ago called Oklahoma City, I just watched, 883 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: you know, they found a guy who I believe was 884 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: wearing a panther's hat that they connected with John Doe 885 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: number two, and it turned out he went to the 886 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,399 Speaker 1: same tire store Tim McVeigh was at, maybe the day 887 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 1: before the day after. Uh, so they believe it could 888 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: have been foggy memory. And then I pulled up these 889 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 1: quotes right here, which kind of cement at least you 890 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: know how Tim McVeigh felt about those that connected another 891 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: person to the crime. So at one point before he 892 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: was executed, he said, you can't handle the truth because 893 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 1: the truth is I blew up the mirror building, and 894 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,839 Speaker 1: isn't it kind of scary that one man could wreak 895 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: this kind of hell? And then on the morning of 896 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: his execution, he said in a written in a written 897 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: statement for those die hard conspiracy theorists who will refuse 898 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,760 Speaker 1: to believe this, I turned the tables and say, show 899 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: me where I needed anyone else financing, logistics, specialized tech skills, 900 00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: brain power, strategy, show me where I needed arc mysterious 901 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: Mr X. So he up until the day of his death, 902 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: and he was when he was executed by the state. 903 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: UM stood by that he acted alone. And you know, 904 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 1: the Terry Nichols did very little. The you know, danger, 905 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,560 Speaker 1: of course, is that it's like nine eleven and these 906 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 1: these conspiracy theories about a controlled demolition or the um, 907 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,239 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories about the extortion seventeen crash, that there 908 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,240 Speaker 1: was something there. I mean, it's like we have this UM, 909 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: this need for there to be something more behind it. 910 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: That it can't be a seemingly random um event or 911 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: or even if it was planned, it can't just be 912 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of uneducated Arabs hijacking airplane and flying it 913 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: into a building. It can't be just some goat herder 914 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan with an RPG launcher that shoots down a 915 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: helicopter filled with our most elite troops one in a 916 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,879 Speaker 1: million shot, right, right, Like those things can't happen, right 917 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: because in these it's all this it's it's such a 918 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: heroic narrative that you know, the hero goes down in 919 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,399 Speaker 1: the hill of gunfire. We'll look at World War One. 920 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,839 Speaker 1: I mean, I think Dan Carlin touched on a similar 921 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,600 Speaker 1: vein when you talked about, you know, Gabrielle Princepp. You know, 922 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 1: take shooting the Archduke Franz Ferdinand. How that I mean, 923 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: he's just a one guy and he kicked off, you know, 924 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: one of the most horrific wars in human history. Right, 925 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: So I think, and I think you guys are right 926 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: that you know, I guess it brings us comfort. And 927 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: I think I'm probably you know speak, I think I'm 928 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: saying verbatim what Dan Carlin says. But I think it 929 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: brings us comfort to think that one person can't influence 930 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: world events like McVeigh did, or Bin Laden or a 931 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: prince that did. You know. It makes us feel better 932 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,399 Speaker 1: if we think there's some uh, you know, cabal or 933 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: you know, order that that a rather insignificant person like 934 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,600 Speaker 1: Timothy McVeigh can't just snap his fingers and snuff out 935 00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: the lives of you know what, what was it a 936 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty d D hundred sixty eight people. So 937 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 1: even that number is debatable because one of the women 938 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: in the building was pregnant at the time. You can 939 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,760 Speaker 1: just go on record to say T is a douche, 940 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: like all this all that bullshit, We're like the mysterious mixture. 941 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: Mr X, Like, gosh, God, what a douche. Yeah, I mean, 942 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: I I wanted to bring it up though, just because 943 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,400 Speaker 1: he stood by, you know, and but just stood by 944 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: the fact that it was him. He acted alone, and 945 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,720 Speaker 1: you know, for those who connect Terry Nichols, Terry Nichols 946 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,799 Speaker 1: kind of helped them construct some stuff and then he 947 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,880 Speaker 1: basically bailed at some point. And then there was another 948 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: guy involved who I've done some research on you know, 949 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,240 Speaker 1: just after watching these documentaries. And the other guy involved 950 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: is actually on witness protection program, so he's somewhere in 951 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,440 Speaker 1: the United States under a different alias. And how was 952 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,759 Speaker 1: he involved you know what, I'm gonna look this up 953 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,680 Speaker 1: as we're recording here. Um, so if he's in witness 954 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,359 Speaker 1: protection he app and testified during the trial, I think yeah, 955 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,919 Speaker 1: And there's been one of the one of the things 956 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: about John Doe number two was that, um, you know, 957 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: whether it was um who was the guy that I 958 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,399 Speaker 1: mentioned in the article, Uh, the German guy, Yes, strass Meyer, 959 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: you know, whether strass Meyer or um, you know the 960 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,360 Speaker 1: guy that Ian mentioned. You know. The thing kind of 961 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: about it is he was always they always said he 962 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,760 Speaker 1: was darker tan complexion, like all of skin. And Kevin 963 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,880 Speaker 1: told me that the guy he saw that night, he 964 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,319 Speaker 1: described him as as having uh, you know, dark complexion, 965 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: And so that was kind of just to unpack that 966 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,359 Speaker 1: a little bit more. I mean, what in detail, what 967 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,040 Speaker 1: was it that Kevin described seeing, because you said in 968 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: retrospect he identified that as Tim mcveigh's car, right right, 969 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,880 Speaker 1: So there was two vehicles parked on the side of 970 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,120 Speaker 1: the street, you know, like street parking, Uh, back to 971 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 1: back or front to back, you know, right behind each other. Um, 972 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: the first vehicle, I think it was a black um 973 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: kind of more modern for car. And then the second 974 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: car behind it, he described it as a piece of 975 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,520 Speaker 1: ship beater. By the way, just to go back to 976 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,360 Speaker 1: what I'm saying here, Um, just because I'm looking this 977 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 1: up and I didn't have the name off hand, So 978 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: it's Michael and Lorie Fortier. Michael and Laurie Fortier were 979 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,279 Speaker 1: considered accomplices for their fore knowledge of the planning of 980 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,280 Speaker 1: the bombing. In addition to Michael assisting McVeigh and scouting 981 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,680 Speaker 1: the Federal building, Laurie had helped McVeigh laminate a fake 982 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,360 Speaker 1: driver's license, which was later used to rent the Riders 983 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: truck for forty A. Sorry agreed to testify against McVeigh 984 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,719 Speaker 1: and Nichols in exchange for reduced sentence and immunity for 985 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,920 Speaker 1: his wife. He was sentenced on May twelve years in 986 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 1: prison and find seventy five thousand dollars for failing to 987 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 1: warrant authorities about the attack. Well, if forty A was 988 00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 1: helping McVeigh scout the building, I mean, could he be 989 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: John Doe Number three. Absolutely, so, I but I would think, uh, 990 00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,319 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry I'm saying waters Kevin. I would think Kevin, uh, 991 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, would know enough about, you know, the subject 992 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: to know if it was you know, I'm sure he 993 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,719 Speaker 1: knows the name Michael forty a if we do, you know, 994 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:18,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. What what do you think, Joe? He 995 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 1: knew forty A and he knew strass Meyer because I 996 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 1: brought up strass Meyer to him when in the interview, 997 00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:26,279 Speaker 1: and he said that he the man that he saw 998 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: next to McVeigh the night before the bombing, he's never 999 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 1: seen before. So what he's saying, it's not either of 1000 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: those guys that right. So that's why he calls him. 1001 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:37,839 Speaker 1: That's why I say, oh, you were there with John 1002 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,279 Speaker 1: Doe number two And he says, no, no, no, it's 1003 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: not John Done Done number two. It's someone that has 1004 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 1: yet to be identified because there's several theories about who 1005 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 1: John Doe number two is. Um, there are no theories 1006 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: about number three, you know, number three? Um? Yeah, but 1007 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,919 Speaker 1: he you know, not only did he know witness and everything, 1008 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 1: he also taught it, um. You know, in the academic 1009 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,279 Speaker 1: setting at Florida State and the chminology, so he is 1010 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,200 Speaker 1: well versed in you know, all the players, um, you know, 1011 00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:10,359 Speaker 1: helping McVeigh, everything about Eli Him's Eli Him City. UM, 1012 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:16,640 Speaker 1: kind of that whole white nationalist uh, you know organization 1013 00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,800 Speaker 1: that you know, I hesitate to call it an organization, 1014 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,879 Speaker 1: but I guess that movement that McVeigh was part of. 1015 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,279 Speaker 1: But you know, going back to you know, Facebook and 1016 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,360 Speaker 1: the censoring. When I was taking Kevin's class, he was 1017 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: required reading for his class was the Turner Diaries, which 1018 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with the Turner if the listeners 1019 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,640 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with Turner Diaries, it's a it's a novel, 1020 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 1: I quote unquote novel written by leader in the white 1021 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:51,479 Speaker 1: supremacist movement. And in the book it talks about what 1022 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,759 Speaker 1: William Luther Pierce is the guy about it, and he 1023 00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,960 Speaker 1: has I think he uses the pen name for that book. 1024 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,839 Speaker 1: But you know, in the book, it starts out with, um, 1025 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: the government comes to confiscate everyone's guns, and these group 1026 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,520 Speaker 1: of white nationalists or white supremacists. Um, they form this 1027 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 1: organization called the Order and they kind of fight the 1028 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,919 Speaker 1: government and it's this big racial civil war where the 1029 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,799 Speaker 1: army becomes segregated and fights itself and in the end, 1030 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,760 Speaker 1: the main character is tasked with blowing up a federal 1031 00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,239 Speaker 1: building using a truck bomb, very similar to what they did. 1032 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 1: So there's been a lot of talk about this is 1033 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:40,439 Speaker 1: you know, this book was the catalyst, but Amazon still 1034 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,680 Speaker 1: carries in Turner Diaries. And I think from an academic 1035 00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,040 Speaker 1: and a criminologist point of view, and I'm not a criminal. 1036 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I have a degree in criminology, but I 1037 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,799 Speaker 1: don't consider myself, you know, a quote unquote criminologist. But 1038 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,200 Speaker 1: from my point of view, you know, being able to 1039 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: read that novel uncensored cover to cover was helpful for 1040 00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:02,640 Speaker 1: me to maybe understand, you know, the thought process of McVeigh. 1041 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:08,360 Speaker 1: So it's good that Amazon still stocks and sells books 1042 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 1: like this because you know, it helps you know, not 1043 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: only does it not only can terrorists read it, but 1044 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,719 Speaker 1: also people who studied terrorists can read it and understand 1045 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:18,960 Speaker 1: their ideology a little bit more. Yeah, if I can 1046 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,799 Speaker 1: tell you guys something interesting, I actually did buy the 1047 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,759 Speaker 1: Turner Diaries off Amazon, and you know you could buy 1048 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,839 Speaker 1: from third party sellers, because I've always, like I said, 1049 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,160 Speaker 1: been interesting in this topic. So I bought it up 1050 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,720 Speaker 1: some third party sur of the what raised nation pretty 1051 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,359 Speaker 1: much because within the book, within the book was a 1052 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,480 Speaker 1: pamphlet for this like white supremacist bookstore that I bought 1053 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,479 Speaker 1: it from. And then I started thinking to myself, I'm like, funck, 1054 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm probably on some government watch list right now, just 1055 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,880 Speaker 1: because I've always wanted to read this book. And then 1056 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,120 Speaker 1: I was I I felt like an asshole, because like 1057 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm supporting these idiots, you know, just because I wanted 1058 00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:58,879 Speaker 1: to read this. Is that a Jewish name? The name 1059 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,080 Speaker 1: is certainly not you. But I'm waiting for the conspiracy 1060 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 1: theorist to put number three no. But but for really 1061 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: it's uh So it is kind of crazy, though, yeah, 1062 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,000 Speaker 1: with these third party sellers, because it does make you think, 1063 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,120 Speaker 1: like I don't know my hands just because like I 1064 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,040 Speaker 1: don't think anything is wrong. If you want to read, 1065 00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,360 Speaker 1: mind comp if you want to read. I have at 1066 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: this point consumed far more white nationalist media than, uh 1067 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,919 Speaker 1: than it's healthy for a person. It starts to funk 1068 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,600 Speaker 1: with your head after a while. Honestly, there's a book 1069 00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,080 Speaker 1: out there called a Siege Um it's actually a compilation 1070 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,720 Speaker 1: uh written by a prominent neo Nazi that one's kind 1071 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:42,320 Speaker 1: of interesting to understand that movement. Um Also in the 1072 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,800 Speaker 1: in the same genre is the Turner Diaries. There's a 1073 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,960 Speaker 1: couple of books written by a former Navy seal. His 1074 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,960 Speaker 1: name is Matthew Bracken, and he wrote a bunch of 1075 00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,000 Speaker 1: books that are are very much the same theme, like 1076 00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: the government orchestrates a false flag attack in order to 1077 00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: justify gun confiscation, which the race which kicks. Oh, yes, 1078 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,360 Speaker 1: because I think the second book in the series. I 1079 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,640 Speaker 1: found it. This is actually why I was in the 1080 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 1: Army and when I was on c Q or staff duty, 1081 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,520 Speaker 1: I think it was staff duty up at Group headquarters actually, 1082 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 1: and there's a copy of it. I think the book 1083 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,439 Speaker 1: is called Enemies Foreign and Domestic or something like that. 1084 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,680 Speaker 1: And I read just like the pro prologue of the 1085 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,760 Speaker 1: of the book, and it's people sitting around a campfire, 1086 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of white people sitting around a campfire out 1087 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: in the wilderness in the aftermath of America's Second Civil War, 1088 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,400 Speaker 1: and they're just talking at each other about all the 1089 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,120 Speaker 1: things that transpired, and there's like roving bands of blacks 1090 00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:42,280 Speaker 1: patrolling America, raping women, and it's like I couldn't make 1091 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,640 Speaker 1: a patch past, like page page seven. I was like, 1092 00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:48,480 Speaker 1: this is just like disgusting. Um, but yeah, that stuff 1093 00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,680 Speaker 1: does serve as a as an inspiration for for some 1094 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,080 Speaker 1: of these people. But what I was living in New Orleans. Um, 1095 00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:00,200 Speaker 1: you know, obviously it's very I guess non secrete. It 1096 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: is not the right word, but it's very Uh well, 1097 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 1: would you say it's like a melting pot? You know, 1098 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,120 Speaker 1: New Orleans is definitely a true melting pot. Yeah, and uh, 1099 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,200 Speaker 1: I woke up one morning it was like a Saturday morning. 1100 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,480 Speaker 1: I was a Friday mornings at Fridays off, and uh, 1101 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,760 Speaker 1: there's a pamphlet on my door for some white nationalist thing. 1102 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,760 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't see who put it there, but 1103 00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,360 Speaker 1: you know, I was like, funk this. You know, I 1104 00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,840 Speaker 1: don't want this in my neighborhood. It reminded me of 1105 00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: the South Park thing where all the redneck guys get 1106 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,919 Speaker 1: mad and they say, we don't take kindly to people 1107 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,400 Speaker 1: who are in tolerant of there's cultural differences out there, 1108 00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:37,080 Speaker 1: and like that's you know, if if if we am 1109 00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,200 Speaker 1: I the guys who was putting it, you know, putting 1110 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,320 Speaker 1: on everyone's doorstep, that would have been me. Yeah, dude, 1111 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,440 Speaker 1: it's it's just so crazy. You know what else I 1112 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,120 Speaker 1: was gonna say. I mean, just back to something I 1113 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,680 Speaker 1: was saying before with the Michael forty things, since I 1114 00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,840 Speaker 1: was reminded of it, isn't the witness Protection program kind 1115 00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,680 Speaker 1: of crazy? Like to think that that guy is still 1116 00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,200 Speaker 1: out there, like possibly going to a home depot and 1117 00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,480 Speaker 1: like he's the guy helping you out or something. I'm 1118 00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,520 Speaker 1: sure it's just like a normal guy work a regular 1119 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,920 Speaker 1: job now and no one knows he had some sort 1120 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,640 Speaker 1: of involvement in the Oklahoma city. But I've I've talked 1121 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,760 Speaker 1: to I've come across the witness protection stuff a couple 1122 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,040 Speaker 1: of times. And actually one guy who is out of 1123 01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,560 Speaker 1: it now, he believes that I talked to him a 1124 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: little bit. His UM. He believes his family was the first. 1125 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,080 Speaker 1: They were the first African Americans put into the Witness 1126 01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:25,840 Speaker 1: Protection program. And it was because of UM, not not 1127 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: not so much UM. It was like them. It was 1128 01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:34,480 Speaker 1: a conflict between UM, the Um islam Nation and another 1129 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,520 Speaker 1: black Islamist group, um Ship. The name escapes me right now, 1130 01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,400 Speaker 1: but it was fucking vicious man and and his family 1131 01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:44,439 Speaker 1: was not directly involved, but like it was like one 1132 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,760 Speaker 1: group went and like murdered the entire family of the 1133 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:49,920 Speaker 1: other group, including like seven kids like drowned and infant 1134 01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,960 Speaker 1: in the fucking sink, like funked up stuff. And he 1135 01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:58,360 Speaker 1: and I guess his dad had some periphery connection to 1136 01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,560 Speaker 1: UM some of the people involved in the crime. So 1137 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,880 Speaker 1: he's and he served as like a witness or you 1138 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,920 Speaker 1: offered some testimony or something. But anyway, I'm sorry, I 1139 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 1: don't have all this information in front of me right now. 1140 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,680 Speaker 1: We can go and revisit it. UM. I actually wrote 1141 01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:17,200 Speaker 1: about this in my blue Light article because what happened 1142 01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,840 Speaker 1: was in response to this murder, these these guys went 1143 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,800 Speaker 1: and UM took hostage a couple of federal buildings and Washington, 1144 01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,320 Speaker 1: d C. In the nineteen seventies, and the United States 1145 01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:32,720 Speaker 1: government had no UM hostage rescue capability, had no idea 1146 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:34,800 Speaker 1: how to deal with this problem. There were no such 1147 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,040 Speaker 1: things like swat teams. So what did the government do. 1148 01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:42,160 Speaker 1: They called down the special Forces at Fort Bragg, like 1149 01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,480 Speaker 1: you put together a special team, I'm gonna deal with this. 1150 01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,080 Speaker 1: And so at Fort Bragg they started rehearsing UM to 1151 01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: go and do a hostage rescue and Watchington d C 1152 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 1: UM and putting together the basics of a plan, and uh, 1153 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:57,800 Speaker 1: it would have been messy if it ever got executed, 1154 01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:01,960 Speaker 1: but the negotiators did their thing and the juice were released. Um. 1155 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,280 Speaker 1: But anyway, the guy whose family was put into witness protection, 1156 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,640 Speaker 1: he wrote a book and I kind of used that 1157 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,880 Speaker 1: book to help me write this article about all this 1158 01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:15,720 Speaker 1: happened and in the US Special Forces involvement in it. Um. 1159 01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, witness protection is an interesting thing. And in 1160 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,760 Speaker 1: that sense, I mean, there are people involved in like 1161 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: gnarly ship and they've just been replaced elsewhere. Yeah, they 1162 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,040 Speaker 1: get like a backstory or something. I mean, or they 1163 01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,400 Speaker 1: just kind of drop you off. No, No, they gave 1164 01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,760 Speaker 1: you like a whole story, um about who you are 1165 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:38,479 Speaker 1: and you know, different identity and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, 1166 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,560 Speaker 1: it is. It is backstopped to some extent. I read 1167 01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:43,920 Speaker 1: a book about it. Was a guy he was a 1168 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,480 Speaker 1: he turned he was like he was a drug dealer. 1169 01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,600 Speaker 1: I think it was California, and he was caught and 1170 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:53,400 Speaker 1: he went undercover for the FEDS as a witness in 1171 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,320 Speaker 1: a motorcycle gang. And then after they brought the gang 1172 01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:58,800 Speaker 1: down and they figured out it was him, he was 1173 01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:03,320 Speaker 1: putting witness protection and moved across the country. Oh, you're 1174 01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,160 Speaker 1: talking about the book under an Alane. No, No, that 1175 01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:11,080 Speaker 1: one's by Billy Queen. That was badass. This one's called Outlaws, 1176 01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:15,760 Speaker 1: Vogos and Hell's Angels or something. The guy was like 1177 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,360 Speaker 1: on the History Channel. No, but this guy was not 1178 01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,880 Speaker 1: a federal agent. This guy was a criminal who just 1179 01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:25,600 Speaker 1: like made a deal with the a t F. Right. 1180 01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:26,920 Speaker 1: I think it was a t F for d A 1181 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,720 Speaker 1: to go undercover does his assignment, you know, in return, 1182 01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 1: he doesn't get charged with the drug dealing, his putt 1183 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,360 Speaker 1: and witness protection gets moved over to Virginia, you know, 1184 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:41,760 Speaker 1: from California. And while he's in Virginia, he is kind 1185 01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:47,440 Speaker 1: of like freelancing four different police departments and organization. Like 1186 01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 1: he goes to the Canada and says, hey, I can 1187 01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:52,680 Speaker 1: try to infiltrate the Hell's Angels and the r CMP 1188 01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,760 Speaker 1: is like no, dude, like no, And it ends up 1189 01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,560 Speaker 1: coming back down to Virginia and like starting a chapter 1190 01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:07,760 Speaker 1: of a motorcycle gang and recruiting guys into the gang. Um. 1191 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:09,640 Speaker 1: But he's still working as a as a witness for 1192 01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,720 Speaker 1: the for the feds, so he kind of made a 1193 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:17,440 Speaker 1: living off of being and undercover not a law enforcement officer, 1194 01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:23,760 Speaker 1: but like an undercover source and these motorcycle gangs. Z. Yeah, 1195 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:25,640 Speaker 1: it was pretty heavy. That stuff is heavy, Like like 1196 01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,120 Speaker 1: I was reading under an a loan, I mean the 1197 01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,160 Speaker 1: stuff that I had to go through, and you could 1198 01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:33,240 Speaker 1: really sense in that book, you know, how he was 1199 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,160 Speaker 1: kind of torn. You know. I think living the part 1200 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,600 Speaker 1: eventually takes a toll on your psyche. And I think 1201 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,840 Speaker 1: he said to that like it started to funk with 1202 01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,320 Speaker 1: his head too, and like all the racist bullshit and 1203 01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:47,040 Speaker 1: stuff like that, like it really impacted him. Yeah. And 1204 01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:49,360 Speaker 1: then on the other hand, he also talks about like 1205 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,400 Speaker 1: going to like you know, um like back to school 1206 01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:55,640 Speaker 1: night for his kids, and people are looking at him 1207 01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,680 Speaker 1: like he's a fucking scumbag biker meth dealer because that's 1208 01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:00,920 Speaker 1: what he looks like, right. Yeah, I had the long 1209 01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,960 Speaker 1: herrings tattoo. Yeah, he can't be like, hey man, like 1210 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,600 Speaker 1: I'm really really a cop, Like I'm not on a 1211 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:11,640 Speaker 1: piece of ship. Well, this has been fascinating, man. I 1212 01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,080 Speaker 1: know that you have some other stuff that you're working 1213 01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,880 Speaker 1: on that we could probably talk about another time. You've 1214 01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,760 Speaker 1: been following the cruise ship stuff, which includes the latest 1215 01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,600 Speaker 1: twenty injured and cruise ship disaster of the Norwegian coast. Uh. 1216 01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:27,600 Speaker 1: And then also covering Venezuela rebel groups sees control along 1217 01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:29,760 Speaker 1: the border in Venezuela. We could probably cover that another 1218 01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,320 Speaker 1: time because I feel like we've taken a lot here. Um. 1219 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:35,640 Speaker 1: But I would say for people who are really interested 1220 01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,720 Speaker 1: in the subject, that would especially recommend reading the book 1221 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:43,160 Speaker 1: American Terrorist, which is American Terrorist Tim Timothy McVeigh and 1222 01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,160 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bombing, because it goes into his roots 1223 01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,320 Speaker 1: in the army, you know, and and then to doing 1224 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,920 Speaker 1: what he did, uh, basically speaking with guys in different 1225 01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,720 Speaker 1: white supremacist groups also being outraged by what happened at 1226 01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,840 Speaker 1: Ruby Ridge, what happened at Waco, and and basically what 1227 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,720 Speaker 1: led Tim McBay to do what he did. Um. And 1228 01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,919 Speaker 1: then there's that Oklahoma City documentary on Netflix, which UM 1229 01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:10,360 Speaker 1: was like I said, it was Mark Potok was involved 1230 01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,440 Speaker 1: in the Southern Poverty Law Center. But I thought it 1231 01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,320 Speaker 1: was pretty uh down the line. They do talk about 1232 01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,080 Speaker 1: the John Doe number two stuff and kind of shoot 1233 01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:19,640 Speaker 1: it down, and I think they do a good job 1234 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,120 Speaker 1: of it, to be honest. UM. And then there was 1235 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:25,680 Speaker 1: I was looking this up on YouTube before we started recording, 1236 01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:28,960 Speaker 1: because I remember watching it. There's a documents there, like 1237 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,520 Speaker 1: a low budget documentary called Oklahoma City What Really Happened? 1238 01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:35,160 Speaker 1: And if you google it you could find that YouTube 1239 01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:38,080 Speaker 1: has like the quality kind of sucks. The audio craps that. 1240 01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,000 Speaker 1: So if I can now, um, I'll link to it 1241 01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,120 Speaker 1: on the article on soft rerep dot com just if 1242 01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,840 Speaker 1: you want to see it. Uh. And that's all about 1243 01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,680 Speaker 1: the conspiracy of John Doe number two and people believe 1244 01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:49,720 Speaker 1: that there was a John Doe number two. So I 1245 01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,480 Speaker 1: think it's cool to watch all of that because you'll 1246 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,320 Speaker 1: get a good um idea from different angles. You'll have 1247 01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:56,919 Speaker 1: one that's very conspiratorial and one that's a lot more 1248 01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,400 Speaker 1: um the official story, and you can believe what you 1249 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:02,640 Speaker 1: want to believe. And uh, I mean it might be 1250 01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,840 Speaker 1: interesting actually to get Kevin Waters maybe on the show 1251 01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,440 Speaker 1: at some point. He seems like a great guy. Yeah, yeah, 1252 01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:10,520 Speaker 1: he's a character. Just one of the things that I 1253 01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,280 Speaker 1: want to mention too. Since were we were on about McVeigh, 1254 01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think we got into it last time, 1255 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,160 Speaker 1: did we? About how McVeigh went to Special Forces selection 1256 01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:21,720 Speaker 1: and assessment After we right after he came back from 1257 01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:26,760 Speaker 1: the war. Yeah, uh and uh he washed out after 1258 01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,160 Speaker 1: a couple of days, so he I think he voluntarily 1259 01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:35,080 Speaker 1: withdrew from the course, so he probably couldn't hack it um. 1260 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:38,480 Speaker 1: But then his whole motivation, I mean, I think you 1261 01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:41,040 Speaker 1: were talking about Ian. I don't know what you came across. 1262 01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:45,480 Speaker 1: Joe mcveigh's motivation for the the attack, why he became 1263 01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, anti government, was because of what he saw 1264 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,600 Speaker 1: in the Gulf War. Yeah, he he said that when 1265 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:53,320 Speaker 1: he was out there, I think he took They talked 1266 01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,200 Speaker 1: about this in the Oklahoma City documentary. There was one 1267 01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,960 Speaker 1: really long shot that he took, all right, and each 1268 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:03,840 Speaker 1: took out someone while he was um deployed, and he 1269 01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,320 Speaker 1: did not feel good about it like that in particular, 1270 01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,320 Speaker 1: and he felt like these people were defenseless. And he 1271 01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:12,000 Speaker 1: and a younger McVeigh looked at America as like the 1272 01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:14,600 Speaker 1: good forces of the world, and he started to see 1273 01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,560 Speaker 1: America as the bullies. He's like, these people are defenseless. 1274 01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:19,720 Speaker 1: And it was a lot of people who were in 1275 01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,519 Speaker 1: that conflict to say that. It was like, you know, 1276 01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,240 Speaker 1: what's the term, like a chicken shooter, Yeah, a turkey 1277 01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,360 Speaker 1: shoot I mean, well even uh, you know when we 1278 01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:29,040 Speaker 1: had Mark g a Conia on and this was the 1279 01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,480 Speaker 1: Second Gulf, was the two thousand and three war, um, 1280 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,280 Speaker 1: and he was talking about the air strikes and and 1281 01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:37,080 Speaker 1: you remember when we interviewed him, He's like, you know, 1282 01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:38,960 Speaker 1: I just felt sick to my stomach at a certain 1283 01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:40,880 Speaker 1: point because we were just bombing the ship out of 1284 01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,519 Speaker 1: people who couldn't defend themselves at all. And I mean 1285 01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,919 Speaker 1: I'm not at all comparing Mark to fucking Tim McVeigh. 1286 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:52,000 Speaker 1: Totally different people and reach different conclusions. Um. But you know, 1287 01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:54,800 Speaker 1: Mark just talked about that how it was very much 1288 01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,599 Speaker 1: a one sided fight and he didn't and he didn't 1289 01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,960 Speaker 1: feel good about it either. It made him, UM, made him. 1290 01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,799 Speaker 1: He had he had some reservations. I think after the fact, 1291 01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:12,519 Speaker 1: I probably in a weird sick way. It's probably healthy 1292 01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:17,479 Speaker 1: to have that that reaction. Yeah, to war. I know 1293 01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,760 Speaker 1: for myself working E M S. You know, I had 1294 01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:24,680 Speaker 1: to and I'm working MS and going to war or not. 1295 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm not even comparing the two. I mean, you know, 1296 01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:29,280 Speaker 1: people ask me about E M. S all the time 1297 01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:31,639 Speaker 1: and they say, oh, you know, it's like war. I'm like, no, 1298 01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:35,680 Speaker 1: it's not you know, I get to go home every night. Um, 1299 01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,240 Speaker 1: but I remember right before I left the job, you know, 1300 01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,640 Speaker 1: you would see sick things and you just wouldn't have 1301 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,160 Speaker 1: any reaction. And I kind of was to the point 1302 01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:46,439 Speaker 1: where like it kind of scared me that I was like, 1303 01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:48,920 Speaker 1: you know, like you just you just saw some guy 1304 01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,360 Speaker 1: die like right next to his wife at four o'clock 1305 01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:54,760 Speaker 1: in the morning, and now you're going home to play 1306 01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,400 Speaker 1: video games and eat breakfast, and that's you know, that's 1307 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,280 Speaker 1: not right. I mean it's yeah, yeah, you're numb after 1308 01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,639 Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, that's not like it's not a great feeling, 1309 01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:08,120 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. I mean I understand where you guys 1310 01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,240 Speaker 1: are coming from, although I've never experienced anything similar. What 1311 01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:15,040 Speaker 1: I was gonna say is, I mean, it's not a 1312 01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:17,519 Speaker 1: popular topic to discuss, but like when you do talk 1313 01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,000 Speaker 1: look at timoc based background, it's a fair question of 1314 01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:24,919 Speaker 1: had Tim McBay never joined the military, would have become 1315 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:28,000 Speaker 1: the person that he did and have done what he did. 1316 01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:30,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it it all kind of sparked from there 1317 01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,200 Speaker 1: about his distrust of American government and then he went 1318 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,519 Speaker 1: down a really dark path. It's hard to say, man, 1319 01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:41,080 Speaker 1: And I mean there's choices involved, people make decisions. And also, 1320 01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:43,679 Speaker 1: I mean I've also seen people who go from being 1321 01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,320 Speaker 1: relatively normal people. I know you've seen it too. I mean, 1322 01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:49,559 Speaker 1: you know who go down that like conspiracy theory road 1323 01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,720 Speaker 1: and end up believing like all kinds of crazy shit. 1324 01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,439 Speaker 1: I mean, dude, I've known I knew a guy who 1325 01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,240 Speaker 1: was a He was a he's a minority himself, and 1326 01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:01,840 Speaker 1: he was a totally normal guy. And then the next thing, 1327 01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:04,599 Speaker 1: I see him popping up on my Facebook like posting 1328 01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:09,000 Speaker 1: all this pro waffin ss bullshit. I'm like, what the 1329 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:13,000 Speaker 1: funk happened to you? Was he like Wlaitton Bigsby the 1330 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:17,439 Speaker 1: blind white sympremacist? What is it you have or against 1331 01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: black people? How much time have you got? Uh? Yeah, 1332 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:27,840 Speaker 1: you know with the they. I mean I think, you know, 1333 01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,080 Speaker 1: maybe going to war played a part, but I mean 1334 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,799 Speaker 1: I just think he was had a an odd upbringing 1335 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,320 Speaker 1: and he was just an odd dude, and he was 1336 01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:40,160 Speaker 1: really susceptible to being radical. It's a it's a number 1337 01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:43,000 Speaker 1: of things coming together, you know. I mean a lot 1338 01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:45,840 Speaker 1: of people shipped off to the Gulf War, you know, 1339 01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:48,800 Speaker 1: and you know, just like I brought up before, Mark 1340 01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:52,160 Speaker 1: Jackonia went to the war in Iraq, saw some of 1341 01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,479 Speaker 1: the same things at least, you know, as far as 1342 01:11:54,520 --> 01:12:00,439 Speaker 1: the the massive amounts of killing, but still went to 1343 01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,439 Speaker 1: a very different place in life. UM. So, I mean 1344 01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:07,439 Speaker 1: there's something about your personal psychology, um, and just your 1345 01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,000 Speaker 1: own manner of thinking that that plays into that so much. 1346 01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,599 Speaker 1: And that's hard to quantify, you know, And I think 1347 01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,679 Speaker 1: it's the way people cope. I mean, I right after 1348 01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,280 Speaker 1: I left the ambulance service, I mean, we lost a 1349 01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:23,680 Speaker 1: lot of medics, um for drugs. I mean it just 1350 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,080 Speaker 1: it was like one actually the other keep getting arrested, 1351 01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, for doing drugs, and it was kind of like, 1352 01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:33,360 Speaker 1: it's horrible what you see in everything. That's not an excuse. 1353 01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:36,760 Speaker 1: And I mean everyone, like you said, Jack, everyone's got choices. Um, 1354 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,840 Speaker 1: you know how they decide to cope with things. I mean, 1355 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,639 Speaker 1: like Kevin said himself, I mean he turned to Suthing's 1356 01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,559 Speaker 1: abuse at first and was eventually able to to see 1357 01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:48,120 Speaker 1: the light. But um, you know, it's one thing I 1358 01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:51,400 Speaker 1: wanted to mention about the article before I go is UM. 1359 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,600 Speaker 1: While Kevin was teaching at Florida State, he was recalled 1360 01:12:56,360 --> 01:13:00,280 Speaker 1: to Oklahoma City to testify UM in the Terry Nichols trial, 1361 01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,320 Speaker 1: which was a state was a state of Oklahoma trial, 1362 01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,639 Speaker 1: and he got up on the stand and he told 1363 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,519 Speaker 1: the story about, um, you know, it hit the night 1364 01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,640 Speaker 1: before the bombing, and the federal government decided, you know, 1365 01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:15,680 Speaker 1: they did I don't, I don't, I don't know what 1366 01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,760 Speaker 1: it was, but they didn't use his testimony, but um, 1367 01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,240 Speaker 1: you know, he said it was. It was hard because 1368 01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:25,760 Speaker 1: they kind of blew him off. But one of the victims, 1369 01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,599 Speaker 1: one of the one of the the father of one 1370 01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:30,200 Speaker 1: of the children who died, came up to him and 1371 01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:33,400 Speaker 1: thanked him for telling a story, um, you know with 1372 01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:37,480 Speaker 1: with conspiracy. I mean, did they not use his testimony 1373 01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:41,920 Speaker 1: because there's some bigger plan or did it really just 1374 01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:45,960 Speaker 1: not fit into their narrative. I think it just fit 1375 01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:49,719 Speaker 1: the prosecution's case. So I don't think it's anything to faerious. 1376 01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:53,320 Speaker 1: And yet and the Feds, of course, like it's Tim McVeigh, 1377 01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,040 Speaker 1: he just killed a hundred and sixty eight people, like 1378 01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:59,640 Speaker 1: they want to slam dunk, right, and they want Nichols too, 1379 01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:01,479 Speaker 1: And they was that there was the Nichols case. They 1380 01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:05,160 Speaker 1: did that because it was a state trial. You know, 1381 01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:07,240 Speaker 1: it had different implications and I just think to them, 1382 01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,920 Speaker 1: losing was not an option. So I don't think it's 1383 01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:13,160 Speaker 1: like some nefarious and I think, you know, probably a 1384 01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:17,920 Speaker 1: lot of conspiracy theories are easily explained. Um, you know 1385 01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:21,040 Speaker 1: through that land. It's not some cabal. It's like, hey, 1386 01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,360 Speaker 1: we gotta get this done, and you know, we had 1387 01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:25,559 Speaker 1: to leave certain parts out to get what we need done. 1388 01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:29,240 Speaker 1: But um, anyway, after the trial, though, you know Kevin, 1389 01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:32,599 Speaker 1: you know, his redemption story was he wrote a letter 1390 01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:36,400 Speaker 1: to Terry Nichols, who was imprisoned. Um, he was found 1391 01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:38,559 Speaker 1: guilty and sent into life in prison, and he wrote 1392 01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:40,920 Speaker 1: a letter to Nichols saying who he was and whose 1393 01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:43,880 Speaker 1: friends were, and that he forgave him. And Nichols actually 1394 01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:47,240 Speaker 1: wrote him back and said that, you know, your letter 1395 01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:51,439 Speaker 1: to me helped me get right with God. And Kevin said, 1396 01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, I think in some ways corresponding with Nichols 1397 01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,639 Speaker 1: helped him get right as well. So well, good for him, man, 1398 01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, yeah, it's a it's an incredible story. 1399 01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:03,560 Speaker 1: It's not you know, it's not my story. I'm just 1400 01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,200 Speaker 1: lucky to tell you it's Kevin's story. And like I said, 1401 01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,599 Speaker 1: you know, I'm very fortunate that he was willing to 1402 01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:12,320 Speaker 1: touch me about it. Um. I think it's probably one 1403 01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:14,360 Speaker 1: of the best things I've ever written. But it's all 1404 01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:18,200 Speaker 1: Kevin's story, and without him being willing to open up 1405 01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:20,679 Speaker 1: about I mean, it's got to be the worst, most 1406 01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,960 Speaker 1: horrible time in his life, which extended for years. You know, 1407 01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,680 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be possible. Well, I think both of you 1408 01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:30,160 Speaker 1: guys for taking part in that and doing that because, um, 1409 01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:33,120 Speaker 1: otherwise people, it would just be another you know, lost 1410 01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:37,880 Speaker 1: chapter of history. Really yeah, yeah, And uh, for those 1411 01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:41,439 Speaker 1: who don't know Nichols is still alive. Um, since we didn't, 1412 01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:44,280 Speaker 1: you know, mention that he's life in prison. It looks 1413 01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:48,400 Speaker 1: like the article is exclusive a former d A agents 1414 01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:52,040 Speaker 1: shilling firsthand account of the Oklahoma City bombing. Uh. And 1415 01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:54,679 Speaker 1: it's up on the News rep dot com. If you're 1416 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,000 Speaker 1: not already a member, become a member because you're gonna 1417 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:00,479 Speaker 1: get great stuff like that on a regular basis. Thanks 1418 01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:03,960 Speaker 1: as always for coming on at Lafay Joseph on Twitter. 1419 01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:06,679 Speaker 1: Always appreciate it, Joe, and we'll have you back on because, 1420 01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:08,720 Speaker 1: like I said, I know you're writing stuff about Venezuela 1421 01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:11,439 Speaker 1: and the cruise ship stuff and Uh, we've gone pretty 1422 01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:14,760 Speaker 1: long here, so we'll talk about that at another point. Yeah, 1423 01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:18,200 Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys have me out. It's always a blast, um, 1424 01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, just shooting the ship with you guys. Yeah, anytime, Joe. 1425 01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:26,559 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that discussion with Joe. As you heard 1426 01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:30,320 Speaker 1: me say, the Oklahoma City bombing has always been just 1427 01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:33,360 Speaker 1: a subject of interest to me. Um, you know how 1428 01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,960 Speaker 1: the psychology of what makes someone do that, the background 1429 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:41,600 Speaker 1: of Tim McVeigh and uh, and it's also kind of 1430 01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,320 Speaker 1: crazy because he started off as a very regular guy 1431 01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:48,559 Speaker 1: with the libertarian minded military veteran and just went way 1432 01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:52,600 Speaker 1: off the reservation. Um. So it's it's great for me 1433 01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,200 Speaker 1: to learn new information. At first, when I saw that 1434 01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:57,920 Speaker 1: Joe put out this article, I figured it must be 1435 01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,479 Speaker 1: stuff that I've heard before, but I and I don't 1436 01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:04,320 Speaker 1: think many in general, other than it's probably personal friends 1437 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:09,320 Speaker 1: have heard that story from Kevin Waters. Um with that, 1438 01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:11,320 Speaker 1: as I said earlier in this show, be sure to 1439 01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:14,080 Speaker 1: check out Create Club. It's a club for men by 1440 01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:18,200 Speaker 1: men of gear, handpicked by special Operations military veterans. 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Also, 1450 01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:53,519 Speaker 1: as a reminder for those who are listening, now is 1451 01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:55,599 Speaker 1: the time to sign up for the spec Ops Channel, 1452 01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:59,880 Speaker 1: our channel that offers the most exclusive shows, documentaries and 1453 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:04,400 Speaker 1: interviews covering the most exciting military content today. The spec 1454 01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:08,400 Speaker 1: Ops channel premier show Training Cell follows former Special Operations 1455 01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:11,880 Speaker 1: Forces as they participate in the most advanced training in 1456 01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:16,599 Speaker 1: the country, everything from shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and 1457 01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:20,400 Speaker 1: winter warfare, climbing and much more. Again, you can watch 1458 01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:23,960 Speaker 1: this content by subscribing to the spec Ops Channel at 1459 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,080 Speaker 1: spec ops channel dot com and take advantage of a 1460 01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:30,439 Speaker 1: membership for only four ninety nine a month. That's spec 1461 01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:34,240 Speaker 1: Ops channel dot com. Sign up today. Last, if you're 1462 01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,800 Speaker 1: not already signed up at the news Rep, you've got 1463 01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:40,680 Speaker 1: to get on board. Expert reporting and actionable intelligence from 1464 01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,280 Speaker 1: your favorite writers you've heard on here, like Joe Wi 1465 01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:46,240 Speaker 1: Fave and also the many guest writers who pop up 1466 01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:49,559 Speaker 1: as well. Unlimited access to News Rep on any device, 1467 01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:53,840 Speaker 1: unlimited access to the app, join the war room community, 1468 01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:57,759 Speaker 1: invitations to our exclusive events, and it's all add free 1469 01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:00,320 Speaker 1: for members. We have a trial offer up right now 1470 01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:02,920 Speaker 1: where you can get four weeks for only a dollar 1471 01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:06,240 Speaker 1: ninety nine. Really can't beat that. Sign up now at 1472 01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:10,240 Speaker 1: the news rep dot com. That's the news Rep dot com. 1473 01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:11,760 Speaker 1: And by the way, for those not in the know, 1474 01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:14,280 Speaker 1: we have our own softwap radio app that you can 1475 01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:18,600 Speaker 1: download for free on iPhone or Android, and our homepage 1476 01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:21,320 Speaker 1: is softwrep radio dot com where you can see our 1477 01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:24,760 Speaker 1: full archive of shows and as always, keep up with 1478 01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:29,040 Speaker 1: us at soft rep Radio as well. And looking behind 1479 01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:33,200 Speaker 1: me here we have the first copies of Jack Murphy's 1480 01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:37,840 Speaker 1: Murphy's Law on hardcover, which is what you're gonna get 1481 01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:40,120 Speaker 1: if you pre ordered. And I was Santa Jackman like 1482 01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:43,720 Speaker 1: the spine of this book really stands out. I think 1483 01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:46,320 Speaker 1: it will stand out in the shelves. I've just started 1484 01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,840 Speaker 1: reading it. It's a great read. Jack's a great writer. 1485 01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:52,400 Speaker 1: You guys know that. Uh, and that's it. That's it 1486 01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:55,559 Speaker 1: for this week of shows. If you enjoyed it, please 1487 01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,120 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. You can follow 1488 01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:02,559 Speaker 1: Jack on Twitter at Jack Murphy r g R. And 1489 01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:05,360 Speaker 1: you can follow me give me a follow on Twitter 1490 01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:09,719 Speaker 1: at Ian Scotto, Facebook dot com slash Ian Scott a Radio. 1491 01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:12,800 Speaker 1: I love to hear your feedback and what you guys 1492 01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:16,240 Speaker 1: like about the show. And uh, yep, stay in touch. 1493 01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:20,800 Speaker 1: We always stay interactive here at SOCCERP Radio and uh, 1494 01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:25,600 Speaker 1: we'll talk to you guys soon. You've been listening to 1495 01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:30,240 Speaker 1: Self Rep Radio. New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. 1496 01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:34,960 Speaker 1: Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter at self Rep Radio.