Speaker 1: Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect.
Speaker 2: What's up to everybody?
Speaker 1: Thank you for checking in. We have another wonderful episode.
Speaker 1: I'm so thankful that y'all continue to check in and
Speaker 1: subscribe and download our podcast now today, I'm so excited
Speaker 1: I've said that word about three times already in the
Speaker 1: span of one minute to have this beautiful guest checking
Speaker 1: in with us. Her name is Debbie Brown. When I
Speaker 1: tell y'all, she is so soothing. She focuses on mental health,
Speaker 1: you know, an advocate for healing. She is an author,
Speaker 1: a successful podcaster, master educator, and y'all, she works for
Speaker 1: organizations such as Chase, Microsoft, Chopra, and other Fortune five
Speaker 1: hundred companies.
Speaker 3: Please welcome Debbie Brown.
Speaker 2: Yay, I'm so happy to be here girl.
Speaker 3: Okay, y'all. I've been following Debbie for a couple of
Speaker 3: years now.
Speaker 1: She inspires me as someone with consistency about what her
Speaker 1: calling is and as much as we could veer off
Speaker 1: and be tempted because social media will make you feel
Speaker 1: like you're supposed to be a healer, a mental health advocate,
Speaker 1: a gardener, a singer, a carwash. Then I feel like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I didn't clean my shoper good enough because Tamar or Bradshaw,
Speaker 1: she's on Instagram. She uses these rubbers and she got
Speaker 1: Amazon links to where you can buy all these cleaning supplies.
Speaker 2: But Debbie, you just.
Speaker 1: You know, you're an educator and you do amazing healing
Speaker 1: work not only for individuals, but fourtune, five hundred companies
Speaker 1: call on you.
Speaker 2: Thank you for this reflection. I feel so seen yourl right,
Speaker 2: I so know what you're speaking to. And I think
Speaker 2: so many were in this kind of vacuum for really
Speaker 2: the last decade, since we all started actively using Instagram
Speaker 2: and social media so regularly, Like it changed the way
Speaker 2: people I think were able to adult because we were
Speaker 2: in this vacuum of comparison kind of without our consent.
Speaker 2: It started out as like excitement of like, wow, there's
Speaker 2: so many different people, people live so differently, or wow,
Speaker 2: I can get this knowledge or information here. I found
Speaker 2: my tribe, and then it turned into I think for
Speaker 2: so many living a life of not enoughness, a feeling
Speaker 2: like everything had to be documented, everything you had to
Speaker 2: teach because you did it once, or you know, everything
Speaker 2: has to be compared to well, am I doing great?
Speaker 2: If I look at that person and I think it's
Speaker 2: just a very unnatural, really twisted, unhelpful, unhealthy way to live.
Speaker 2: And so like the way I am on social media,
Speaker 2: I just I want to be very clear because I'm
Speaker 2: not an influencer. I'm not here for the people. I'm
Speaker 2: here to share the work God calls me to and
Speaker 2: I'm here to share things that I find interesting and
Speaker 2: hopefully the people that find me. You know, we can
Speaker 2: kind of speak the same language. But I'm not looking
Speaker 2: to attract everyone. I'm not looking to build my following.
Speaker 2: I'm looking to live my work.
Speaker 1: Were you always okay with that? Were you ever tempted
Speaker 1: to like say, like, I'll okay, y'all, she's gorgeous aesthetically right.
Speaker 1: Were you ever tempted to be like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I could get a redkindal for my curls.
Speaker 4: Whoived Debby if they call you, please, If Shame moisture,
Speaker 4: whoever wants to invest in you, please, ma'am, go for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but always bring it back to healing.
Speaker 2: Always bring it back to healing. You know, absolutely, yes,
Speaker 2: you know. To answer your question, I think I'll be
Speaker 2: really honest with you like, I think we're in the
Speaker 2: age of authenticity. I think that we are in a
Speaker 2: new era of women of ways that were allowed to
Speaker 2: be multi hyphenate, multi dimensional. And I think because of
Speaker 2: that now it feels more comfortable for me to be
Speaker 2: myself on social. But I had a hard time. I'm
Speaker 2: not naturally pulled to do things I see other people doing,
Speaker 2: Like my spirit kind of rejects it, maybe in an
Speaker 2: over the top way sometimes. But I felt like, honestly,
Speaker 2: like I didn't belong on social for years because there
Speaker 2: was this whole era where the in thing to do
Speaker 2: was to share how good you were at tearing another
Speaker 2: person down. You know, like there was this era where
Speaker 2: anything that you would say someone some stranger in a
Speaker 2: distant land or somewhere else would just meet you with negativity.
Speaker 2: And it was years of that, and anytime I try
Speaker 2: to poke my head up and be myself on social,
Speaker 2: I'd get these comments that would say, so many you're stupid,
Speaker 2: you're ugly, you're this, or oh, you think like the
Speaker 2: most irrational things. And so, you know, as someone that
Speaker 2: does not believe in tearing people down, for someone that
Speaker 2: it doesn't occur to to try to show off my
Speaker 2: language and my vocabulary by how painful it can be
Speaker 2: for someone else. Yeah, I was sharing that I've been
Speaker 2: sharing the same stuff for years, but it just wasn't
Speaker 2: resonating because we were in a different moment as a society.
Speaker 1: Either we weren't ready or it just wasn't God's time.
Speaker 1: How many people have been doing this for years and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, one thing that they said
Speaker 1: resonates with millions or it goes viral. But you're like,
Speaker 1: I've been talking his talk for ten years. I've been
Speaker 1: doing this, you know. And so I love timing. I
Speaker 1: love God's timing. I love when he knows that something
Speaker 1: that you have to share is me on a broad
Speaker 1: scale in the world and in this earth, and God
Speaker 1: makes it happen.
Speaker 2: That makes it happen.
Speaker 1: I love to see the elevation of people in which
Speaker 1: I can spot and say God did that. They didn't
Speaker 1: manipulate it themselves. God did that.
Speaker 2: That is so beautiful everything that you're saying, It's just
Speaker 2: like this morning, I was driving back from dropping my
Speaker 2: son at preschool, and I just felt so overwhelmingly grateful
Speaker 2: for the divine timing of God, you know, And every
Speaker 2: time that I was irritated in my life or felt
Speaker 2: like things weren't fast enough, or that it should be now,
Speaker 2: or like this, I just felt so grateful for every
Speaker 2: time I didn't get my way because it wasn't right.
Speaker 2: It's not right till it's right. And you can't see
Speaker 2: that into the patience, like the surrender, the cultivating a
Speaker 2: deep practice of patience. People don't speak to the challenge
Speaker 2: of it enough. But it's hard, hard, hard. It's hard
Speaker 2: to be patient when you think you know. It's hard
Speaker 2: to be patient when the world is moving out of
Speaker 2: particular speed or frequency. But it is always in divine time.
Speaker 1: Always, And it's amazing when you talk about the world
Speaker 1: is moving at a particular speed. Yes, the world is
Speaker 1: moving at a particular speed, but you still have a soul,
Speaker 1: you still have.
Speaker 3: A physical part of the body.
Speaker 1: And I feel like a lot of us are stressed
Speaker 1: and burnt out because we're trying to move at the speed.
Speaker 3: It's like we're on a freeway. Say the speed limit
Speaker 3: is seventy okay, I'm a seventy okay, maybe seventy five, But.
Speaker 2: Then there's a car.
Speaker 1: Other cars are going eighty five ninety five, and it's
Speaker 1: we're naturally inclined at least I am to be like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I've got to go with the flow of traffic. When
Speaker 1: I mean the flow of traffic, how fast traffic is going.
Speaker 1: So I like in what we see on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: say on social media, they almost dictate other cars how
Speaker 1: fast you're supposed to be, and it has you out
Speaker 1: of time, out of rhythm. You might arrive to your
Speaker 1: destination early and you ain't ready to be there so early,
Speaker 1: or you get out the car and the door is
Speaker 1: locked because you ain't supposed to be there right now.
Speaker 2: It's you early.
Speaker 3: They ain't even unlike the doors yet. But I got
Speaker 3: here early, you know what I mean, versus at the
Speaker 3: right time.
Speaker 1: And I'm excited to talk to you about healing and
Speaker 1: timing of it.
Speaker 2: Oh that was so beautiful. Yes, yes, yes, y'all.
Speaker 1: I met Debbie in person at Charlemagne's Mental Wealth Summit
Speaker 1: in New York and there were so many amazing people
Speaker 1: in the room, practitioners, psychiatrist, psychologists, and therapists. But your
Speaker 1: process might be a little different in the healing space
Speaker 1: than that of traditional therapy. Get us into your process
Speaker 1: of how it's different than traditional therapy.
Speaker 2: I really believe that to truly heal, to truly release things,
Speaker 2: to truly call in more for your life, a higher vision,
Speaker 2: to come into the real remembrance of your wholeness, to
Speaker 2: expand in who you are. It is never one thing.
Speaker 2: So I think therapy is phenomenal psychiatry. It's phenomenal. Praise
Speaker 2: God for the ways that these fields have been able
Speaker 2: to evolve over the centuries, for the kind of knowledge
Speaker 2: we're able to come to about ourselves now. And just
Speaker 2: that won't get you there. It won't, I won't, And
Speaker 2: I think everyone really knows that. You know, sometimes you
Speaker 2: get caught up in loops and therapy. Now, this is
Speaker 2: a separate conversation from the conversation about destigmatizing mental health.
Speaker 2: That we still need to be talking about access to therapy,
Speaker 2: access to group therapy, cognitive therape, somatic therapy, all of them.
Speaker 2: And once you've begun that journey, now there's a separate
Speaker 2: conversation of how to elevate even higher, how to become
Speaker 2: even more yourself, how to heal even deeper. I don't
Speaker 2: think healing is sustainable in our lives. To create a
Speaker 2: new practice, a new set of experiences without a holistic approach.
Speaker 2: You have to look at the mental, physical, emotional, and
Speaker 2: spiritual view of yourself and you have to come into
Speaker 2: healing of all four of those components. And this is
Speaker 2: in no way a criticism of wherever anyone is at.
Speaker 2: This is just letting everyone know there's more available. You know,
Speaker 2: the thing about therapy, depending on what type you're getting.
Speaker 2: Most people, the first access point of therapy is cognitive therapy,
Speaker 2: which is talk therapy, and it's a powerful tool. But
Speaker 2: after a while, once it equips you with the language
Speaker 2: that you need to express yourself, once it equips you
Speaker 2: with the understanding of things that have happened to you
Speaker 2: and you've had the space to express them, to get
Speaker 2: wise expert counsel on them, then there's more because you
Speaker 2: can always get stuck in a rumination. Now you have
Speaker 2: the language, and then you find five years later you're
Speaker 2: still chewing on the same things you uncovered. If anyone
Speaker 2: finds themselves in that where you are still talking about
Speaker 2: the same patterns in therapy all the time, you're still
Speaker 2: stuck on perhaps one of the facets of your healing,
Speaker 2: or you're just repeating the pattern with new people, and
Speaker 2: so you're going in there to work the same process,
Speaker 2: but with new relationships. It's time to elevate, it's time
Speaker 2: to expand, it's time to push yourself more. And then
Speaker 2: I would really recommend that people find a somatic approach.
Speaker 2: I believe in blending psychology and spirituality. I think that
Speaker 2: regardless of belief system, it's incredibly powerful for everyone to
Speaker 2: have a devotional practice. So there is nothing about my
Speaker 2: life that moves without God. There is not a thing.
Speaker 2: Everything about my relationship with Creator informs all the other
Speaker 2: work that I do, everything and every way that I'm
Speaker 2: able to heal whatever goal I'm currently working on with that.
Speaker 2: So I think everyone can deeply, transformationally, mind blowingly connect
Speaker 2: with the most elevated versions of themselves when they look
Speaker 2: at a holistic approach, start getting curious, start seeing some
Speaker 2: of the phenomenal healing modalities and ancient wisdom that we
Speaker 2: have had for centuries at our fingertips. It's a little
Speaker 2: bit science, it's a little bit expertise, and then it's
Speaker 2: a little bit mystery.
Speaker 1: I'm still glad you talked about science and spirituality. We
Speaker 1: are spirits. We have a body that houses the soul.
Speaker 1: We are a spirit and a lot of us we
Speaker 1: work on the physical. We look good, we go to
Speaker 1: the gym, we eat all the right things. But then
Speaker 1: it's like, man, if we can get that spiritual side
Speaker 1: to match the physical, and how self aware you'll become.
Speaker 3: I believe you will treat people better.
Speaker 1: I've even become so much more aware because of spending
Speaker 1: time spiritually in the morning.
Speaker 3: I call it my first fruits. Or I don't do
Speaker 3: anything in.
Speaker 1: The morning before I've done a devotional prayer or something,
Speaker 1: and then it makes me not want to look at
Speaker 1: stuff on the internet that's going to like desecrate everything
Speaker 1: that I've done, you know, to get my day started.
Speaker 1: We're like sponges, Debbie, you agree, like our spirits take
Speaker 1: on and we feel everything, and if you don't, you're
Speaker 1: just hardened.
Speaker 3: And I used to be that hardened person.
Speaker 1: A friend of mine, April Mason, said the other day
Speaker 1: that maybe we have faith for a car, maybe we
Speaker 1: have faith for a new house, or.
Speaker 3: To get that degree. Right, i'm'a get it. I'm gonna
Speaker 3: get it.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get it, But we don't use that same
Speaker 1: faith and say, man, I also deserve wholeness. Oo, and
Speaker 1: you you always say, seek the path that demands your
Speaker 1: whole being. Oh, I'm gonna get this car, honey. Oh oh,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get me a husband or a wife.
Speaker 3: And yeah, but ooh, we.
Speaker 1: Need some healing so we can maintain these things that
Speaker 1: we're these other things we've got faith for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because you know ooh okay. First, I would
Speaker 2: say the quote that you just spoke to it comes
Speaker 2: from the great Sufi mystic Roomy Rumy's poetry was ten
Speaker 2: twelve years ago my first foray into being with myself,
Speaker 2: into opening to like, joy, to beauty, to deeper understanding.
Speaker 2: And that quote changed the course of my life when
Speaker 2: I first heard it. And the full quote is seek
Speaker 2: the wisdom that will untie you're not, seek the path
Speaker 2: that demands your whole being. And when I heard that,
Speaker 2: it's like your whole being, So seeking a path that
Speaker 2: is requiring all of you. It's requiring you to operate
Speaker 2: on all cylinders as all of who you are, which
Speaker 2: is what God wants for us. And seek the path
Speaker 2: that demands your whole being, like live the life with
Speaker 2: people in circumstances that require you to be in wholeness,
Speaker 2: that require you to be your elevated self. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be the smartest person in the room.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be the most healed person in
Speaker 2: the room. I want to live my path, not comparatively,
Speaker 2: and continue to learn and expand with the array of
Speaker 2: information so many of us hold and wisdom that we hold.
Speaker 2: You know, the path of wholeness. It's available to everyone,
Speaker 2: but it's not for the faint of heart. I would
Speaker 2: be really remiss if I pack it the way I
Speaker 2: talked about the healing of the human spirit through tips
Speaker 2: and hacks and tricks and quick little you know, like
Speaker 2: lists of things you can do each day. You have
Speaker 2: to get in the gutter with yourself. You have to
Speaker 2: be willing to surrender every thought you have about who
Speaker 2: you are. You have to be willing to look into
Speaker 2: the deepest crevices of the things that cause you pain
Speaker 2: so you can free yourself of them and at for
Speaker 2: so much of that sounds scary, but it's what we're
Speaker 2: built to do. We are designed to do this. We
Speaker 2: can do this big, hard work. But so often I think,
Speaker 2: and I say this with a lot of expanded reverence
Speaker 2: for what the Church has meant to so many, For centuries.
Speaker 2: But some of the issues I think some people are
Speaker 2: starting to notice, especially people that have perhaps spent their
Speaker 2: entire lives going to church and know the Word and
Speaker 2: have felt God. The church hasn't always equipped people with
Speaker 2: the tools to know God for themselves. Very often, the church,
Speaker 2: depending on who you're with, and I want to say,
Speaker 2: this is not a monolith. So some people have true
Speaker 2: anointed leadership that is not trying to hoard God as
Speaker 2: the middleman, and some really don't. And you know, very
Speaker 2: often you go to church and you'll hear these powerful
Speaker 2: sermons and these incredible stories from the Bible, and the
Speaker 2: way they're talking to you about it on stage is
Speaker 2: to just channel that towards a car, or towards the promotion,
Speaker 2: or towards something that is surfaced that God could give
Speaker 2: a damn about, you know, like God doesn't care about car,
Speaker 2: Like these are things we invented. God knows how to
Speaker 2: speak to you through your growth, through the ways that
Speaker 2: you're able to expand your heart into love. Through that process,
Speaker 2: you're able to attract higher outcomes, which can allow for
Speaker 2: you to have the more comfortable vehicle, which can allow
Speaker 2: for you to have, you know, the job that is
Speaker 2: really speaking to your soul's purpose. But we have to
Speaker 2: stop asking for the small things, and we have to
Speaker 2: ask to get unstuck from everything that's blocking us from
Speaker 2: getting what we want. So if I need a new car,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to necessarily just pray about the car.
Speaker 2: I will pray that God gives me a solution, But
Speaker 2: I'm also going to pray God, what is my work?
Speaker 2: What am I avoiding in myself? What are the decisions
Speaker 2: I need to make to position myself to have the
Speaker 2: receptivity to bring that car in, to bring the better
Speaker 2: life in. But it's everything else, you know, It's your
Speaker 2: relationship with yourself, it's your understanding of your childhood. The
Speaker 2: thing that is so interesting to me is sometimes, you know,
Speaker 2: I'll speak to people that are so beautifully equipped with
Speaker 2: the word they've met, but their ability to live it
Speaker 2: is so limited. And very often, you know, everyone wants
Speaker 2: to speak to the power of Christ, of Jesus, but
Speaker 2: are not actually in practice to walk the path Christ
Speaker 2: existed to show us how to live to be christ like.
Speaker 2: And to be christ Like doesn't mean to be this
Speaker 2: saint up on a shelf. It means to make honorable choices.
Speaker 2: It means to love yourself. It means to be in
Speaker 2: relationship with God every single day.
Speaker 1: To be in relationship with God every single day will
Speaker 1: look different for it everybody. And I am finding that.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm one of the ones that you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I grew up in church every single day. It was
Speaker 1: my foundation. But it wasn't until I started traveling on
Speaker 1: the road professionally that I had to cultivate relationship with
Speaker 1: God for myself because I didn't have a church to
Speaker 1: go to every Sunday on the road, right, Sometimes we
Speaker 1: had shows on Sunday. Sometimes Sunday was a travel day
Speaker 1: to prepare us for Monday.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So I think my growth, my strength came from will
Speaker 1: church be in my foundation? But church is different, the
Speaker 1: church being where we went to fellowship, where I believe
Speaker 1: is community what we need even from slavery, we found
Speaker 1: a community to go to to praise, sing songs of worship.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But then what happens when you go outside those four
Speaker 1: walls of church is Monday, right, And so learning that
Speaker 1: I couldn't depend on just the pastor sermon on Sunday,
Speaker 1: I needed to apply that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,
Speaker 1: Saturday in time for Sunday and if maybe you go
Speaker 1: to We went to Bible study during the week. We
Speaker 1: also went to choirhearsa during the week. So I was
Speaker 1: there in the physical four walls of the church all
Speaker 1: the time. But like I said, the real relationship with God,
Speaker 1: because those were just doings, right, but the real relationship
Speaker 1: with God to where I learned him who I am.
Speaker 1: It happened for me outside of the actual sanctuary. My
Speaker 1: home had to become my sanctuary. My bedroom had to
Speaker 1: become a sanctuary, my hotel room had to become a sanctuary.
Speaker 1: Tour bus had to become a freaking sanctuary. Lord, I
Speaker 1: didn't mean to say freaking sanctuary. I'm sorry, uh, But
Speaker 1: and on that path things happen. Relationships break apart, Certain
Speaker 1: things that you wanted in your life and career you
Speaker 1: didn't get and so a piece of you gets broken, broken,
Speaker 1: broken every single day, and you're not whole. Can a
Speaker 1: person be completely whole? Or is it just wholeness and healing?
Speaker 1: Are just gonna be journeys? And will we be completely
Speaker 1: and or healed?
Speaker 2: I think yes, I believe yes. To be fully hold
Speaker 2: and healed. It does not mean that the circumstances of
Speaker 2: life are necessarily going to be that much easier. Earth
Speaker 2: is a challenging place. We just hit eight billion in
Speaker 2: our population, and the majority of that eight billion are unconscious.
Speaker 2: It's a lot of people that are not going to
Speaker 2: do their work while they're alive. And so you're going
Speaker 2: to do all this work of healing of wholeness and
Speaker 2: you're still going to be living here. It just is.
Speaker 2: And I think that's where acceptance comes in, and I
Speaker 2: think we can I think there are deep levels of
Speaker 2: enlightenment that a very rare few meat in their lifetimes,
Speaker 2: right Like, there's some you think of the Dalai Lama,
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty safe to say he was always
Speaker 2: intended to be this enlightened being that shares consciousness in
Speaker 2: the way that he does. I can't imagine the Dhali
Speaker 2: Lama with a teenage life like mine, you know, Like,
Speaker 2: there are some beings that I think hold space for
Speaker 2: the rest of the world to uplift to. But then
Speaker 2: I also think, you know, people ask me all the
Speaker 2: time like do you have bad days? Right Like do
Speaker 2: you get really angry? And I'm like, well, I'm a
Speaker 2: human being, like I'm meant to feel all the full
Speaker 2: spectrum of emotion. I don't have less crazy shit that
Speaker 2: happens to me. I'll say that I don't have, probably
Speaker 2: less than most, but the way I relate to it
Speaker 2: is completely different. You know, if something doesn't happen in
Speaker 2: the way that I visualized it, I think my wholeness
Speaker 2: really displays itself as the deep faith that well, then
Speaker 2: that was the right choice. You know. If that wasn't mine,
Speaker 2: then it's not mine. If this didn't happen the way
Speaker 2: I wanted it to, even if I really thought so,
Speaker 2: then that is not the path. And so whenever I
Speaker 2: pray for something, I say something very specific. I may
Speaker 2: ask for X, Y, and Z. As I in the prayer,
Speaker 2: I say this or something better for the highest good? God,
Speaker 2: can I please have this or something better for the
Speaker 2: highest good? Because I also don't want to place limits
Speaker 2: on God.
Speaker 1: That's so good this or better than this?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the highest good?
Speaker 1: Would you say an indicator of healing and wholeness is
Speaker 1: in your response to the Shenanigans of war?
Speaker 2: Who yes, oh my God, God gave me my answer.
Speaker 1: I was like, whoo ah, wholeness.
Speaker 3: Is maybe not even a feeling. Healing is not a feeling.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, that's good. Yes, yes, because that's
Speaker 2: the thing. It's it's once you get a healing, once
Speaker 2: you get kind of that new depth of yourself, it's
Speaker 2: about building a life that supports it, that continues to
Speaker 2: make that truth. So that does mean you don't really
Speaker 2: stay in the life that you had. Everything has to
Speaker 2: change with you, and sometimes that means casting some people aside,
Speaker 2: walking away from some circumstances, jobs, people, places, things. But
Speaker 2: if there is a trust, and if there is a
Speaker 2: commitment to living a healed whole life, you adjust. We
Speaker 2: are highly adaptable beings, adjust trusted enough to leave behind
Speaker 2: things even if you don't understand why.
Speaker 3: Ooh. This leads to my next question.
Speaker 1: I read something where you were saying, I'm paraphrasing, but
Speaker 1: you're an expert at boundaries, m.
Speaker 2: Setting boundaries.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Ooh I love boundaries, she.
Speaker 3: Said, I love boundaries.
Speaker 1: You said it as if you said, ooh I love
Speaker 1: allmond joys or kids. Oh, I love crying bars, Ooh
Speaker 1: I love bread pudding.
Speaker 3: Ooh god, I love boundaries.
Speaker 2: Truly because every time I have the opportunity to feel
Speaker 2: discomfort and set a boundary. Anyway, I unlock a new
Speaker 2: layer of myself in my life. I am always, always,
Speaker 2: always met with a better outcome than I could have imagined.
Speaker 2: And it takes work. You know the thing about boundaries,
Speaker 2: It took years of practice to love them. There was
Speaker 2: a time one. It's hard to admit that your life
Speaker 2: has lacked boundaries, right, especially if you are somebody that
Speaker 2: shows up powerfully in other, you know, avenues of your life.
Speaker 2: It's hard to say, oh, whoa, but in this area,
Speaker 2: Holy shit, I've been letting everybody get away with things.
Speaker 2: You know. It's challenging to look at that, but to
Speaker 2: look at it and get curious and say, well, why
Speaker 2: the hell have I been doing that? Why have I
Speaker 2: been doing that? Can I make another choice?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Making that choice is so uncomfortable, Let me still make
Speaker 2: it anyway, and let me just privately scream it out.
Speaker 2: When I started setting down boundaries in my personal life,
Speaker 2: it then led me to realize that I needed to
Speaker 2: set boundaries in my work life. I needed to set
Speaker 2: boundaries in every facet of how I interact with people
Speaker 2: Like you get this beautiful kind of revolving door of
Speaker 2: practice when you commit to it, and the first, you know,
Speaker 2: I knew walking in that I was doing things that
Speaker 2: I wasn't good at. I knew that I was going
Speaker 2: to have to practice a new way of being That
Speaker 2: really triggered me, That really made me uncomfortable, That really
Speaker 2: made me look at more painful parts of my own
Speaker 2: past of oh wow, you've you've actually let yourself down
Speaker 2: quite a bit.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I had to really look at that. I had to
Speaker 2: look at my role in my choices, my role in
Speaker 2: people overstepping my boundaries. And it's hard. It's hard because
Speaker 2: it's always a two way street. It is never just
Speaker 2: what someone else is doing. It is never just that
Speaker 2: they won't respect you, that they want this, Why do
Speaker 2: you allow it? What are you allowing? You know, It's
Speaker 2: always a two way street. You have to look at
Speaker 2: both sides. And the first when I first started realizing
Speaker 2: I needed to set boundaries in my life, I would
Speaker 2: I would do it, and then I would be consumed
Speaker 2: with anxiety and I'd be thinking of, oh my god,
Speaker 2: and they're going to think this about me and then this,
Speaker 2: and I would literally just say, grin and Barrett, you
Speaker 2: will not change your response. You will not send another message,
Speaker 2: you will not be passive aggressive, you will not song
Speaker 2: and dance. And I would grab a pillow and I'd
Speaker 2: go into the other room, and sometimes I would scream.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I would cry because I hated that it was
Speaker 2: so hard for me. It felt embarrassing, it felt like
Speaker 2: what the hell am I? And then it quickly gets better.
Speaker 2: The second you say yes to yourself, the second you
Speaker 2: enforce that first boundary and do not change your stance,
Speaker 2: life opens up. You get more and more opportunity every
Speaker 2: day to practice. Now you're saying no twenty five times
Speaker 2: a day, and you probably hadn't said no in ten years,
Speaker 2: and that practice opens up, and before you know it,
Speaker 2: a couple months have passed and you are your own
Speaker 2: personal expert at protecting yourself, at setting boundaries and at
Speaker 2: making better choices.
Speaker 1: M I told a friend of mine that you don't
Speaker 1: have to announce when you set a boundary.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 1: Doctor Darius Daniels says it as well. He was like,
Speaker 1: every adjustment don't need to be announced either, right, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: So some of that anxiety about setting a boundary and
Speaker 1: or making that adjustment for me has subsided. When I
Speaker 1: reminded myself and the friend like you don't have to announce.
Speaker 3: It, just suddenly.
Speaker 1: Make the adjustment and guess what, Debby, I've been on
Speaker 1: the receiving end of someone setting boundaries with me.
Speaker 2: How does it feel?
Speaker 3: It don't feel good.
Speaker 2: I learned I was spoiled entitled. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like okay. So for someone to set
Speaker 1: a boundary with me, yeah, and I was okay.
Speaker 3: It made me want to be a safe person.
Speaker 1: And it also made me because you talk about the
Speaker 1: passive aggressive, I was very passive aggressive, which can irritate
Speaker 1: the other person, like why don't you just say what your.
Speaker 3: Chest say what you mean?
Speaker 1: Or don't come to me five days later with the
Speaker 1: circumstance and you've been himming a han dancing like you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: So we talk about girls set boundaries with people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but be ready for when a person sets a
Speaker 1: boundary with you, some aware reflect, make the apologies, create
Speaker 1: a safe environment so that person can maybe adjust the
Speaker 1: boundary because they're entitled to adjusting the boundaries as they see.
Speaker 1: Are you a safe person with them? Doctor Henry Cloud,
Speaker 1: John Towns and the book Safe People.
Speaker 3: I remember reading the book.
Speaker 1: I remember, well, I can't wait to read this book
Speaker 1: because I'm gonna be able to tell my ex all
Speaker 1: about himself. First few chapters of the book, it was
Speaker 1: telling me about me. So I want to encourage people
Speaker 1: like Yo's. It feels good to set those boundaries, but
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, don't be so high and mighty mean
Speaker 1: think you're so perfect that somebody is out there is
Speaker 1: going to have to set a boundary with you. It
Speaker 1: don't feel good, but imagine they don't feel good to
Speaker 1: them when you.
Speaker 3: Set a bondary with them as well.
Speaker 2: That is so so so beautiful and so powerful. Like
Speaker 2: if everyone listening could do both of these things we
Speaker 2: just spoke to, Your life changes radically, urgently, completely, And
Speaker 2: I think, like, but what you just spoke to about
Speaker 2: even giving that grace when you're not getting your way
Speaker 2: is so amazing and something I think of, you know,
Speaker 2: something I really try to do intuitively. You can notice
Speaker 2: people in your life that are trying to make a
Speaker 2: new way for themselves right, that are making themselves uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: that are testing out boundaries as you said, and really
Speaker 2: working your process inside so you can be a soft
Speaker 2: place to land for them is so important. You know,
Speaker 2: being able to give people the kind of response that
Speaker 2: you would crave to receive from people when you are
Speaker 2: looking to try on new ways of being. It is
Speaker 2: one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves and others,
Speaker 2: you know. And sometimes because I move really fast, I
Speaker 2: process things really fast. I talk a lot. I'm very
Speaker 2: descriptive and expressive. But that's also my gift, and that's
Speaker 2: not a way of being that everyone has. And so
Speaker 2: for me, a lot of my work when I'm in
Speaker 2: conversation with people I love, it's to slow down and
Speaker 2: to be quiet, and to not speak their words for them,
Speaker 2: and to notice when I feel like I have to
Speaker 2: add something, to just instead sit in my own body
Speaker 2: and take a deep breath and give that person the
Speaker 2: dignity of their process.
Speaker 1: It's just so beautiful, Debbie, this is so on time.
Speaker 1: Literally yesterday was on the phone with someone and they
Speaker 1: were sharing some things with me, and I wouldn't.
Speaker 3: Say for the first time, but I felt so bad.
Speaker 1: I didn't have a lot to say, but I intentionally said,
Speaker 1: let's sit here in this silence, just you being present
Speaker 1: is enough. We don't have to be like, Oh, things
Speaker 1: happen for a reason. Oh it's gonna be okay. Hey,
Speaker 1: to them right now, they don't feel like it's gonna
Speaker 1: be okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so sitting.
Speaker 1: It was so awkward, Debbie, to not have the solution
Speaker 1: or the or the answer, or the scripture or the
Speaker 1: prayer right up front or the churchyisms.
Speaker 3: We just had to sit in silence.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I hated that it was over the phone versus I
Speaker 1: felt like it would have been better in person to
Speaker 1: just sit in silence with this person, But over the phone,
Speaker 1: it was just like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: That's so powerful because when you have supportive silence, not
Speaker 2: silent treatment, not someone being silent because they are minimizing, dismissing,
Speaker 2: or don't want to be a part of your process,
Speaker 2: and the feeling is different from healthy silence to non
Speaker 2: healthy silence, but supportive silence that you just turned out.
Speaker 2: It allows someone to build their trust in themselves. It
Speaker 2: allows want to build their own emotional intelligence to trust themselves.
Speaker 2: How often can we actually really give solutions to people's
Speaker 2: individual unique problems, you know, truly, like a good one.
Speaker 2: It's not something we can think about at the top
Speaker 2: of our heads on command in a thirty minute conversation,
Speaker 2: and we shouldn't try. We should just offer support. We
Speaker 2: should offer freedom, we should offer non judgment for someone
Speaker 2: as they're walking through process. If you have something that
Speaker 2: is just a divine unique fit, you'll know it. But
Speaker 2: if you're just trying to come up with something because
Speaker 2: of your own awkwardness, because of your discomfort with that
Speaker 2: person's pain, you are doing them a disservice, You are
Speaker 2: causing them harm, and you're jeopardizing your relationship with them.
Speaker 3: You'll say some of.
Speaker 1: The most foolish things like mouths like did I I
Speaker 1: didn't mean that? Pivoting back to boundary boundaries versus discarding people.
Speaker 2: It's completely different, and it's a felt difference. If there's
Speaker 2: anger behind your boundary, then that is a completely different
Speaker 2: mechanism happening, which you may need to happen right, because
Speaker 2: some people need angry boundaries. If you're being harmed, if
Speaker 2: you're being abused, if you are being mistreated, there is
Speaker 2: a harsh line of boundary. So sometimes the boundary has
Speaker 2: to be a barbed wire fence for unsafe people, for
Speaker 2: other people that just may be unconscious or not as
Speaker 2: emotionally intelligent as you or I've had different kinds of
Speaker 2: traumas and triggers. The boundary can be more like a
Speaker 2: velvet fence, a velvet sword. It can be just a line,
Speaker 2: a visual line in the sand. But it doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be a cinder block wall, you know. And I
Speaker 2: think when we're creating boundaries, the boundary is less about
Speaker 2: the other person and it's not individualized to every person.
Speaker 2: You're creating a set of boundaries of what is honorable
Speaker 2: for your unique life. Then that boundary applies to anyone
Speaker 2: that comes up to you, friends, family, currents, exes. Everybody
Speaker 2: can get the boundary. Because the boundary is about the
Speaker 2: way you care for yourself as a whole, everybody can
Speaker 2: get it. And so when I set a boundary, I
Speaker 2: think part of the reason that allows it to not
Speaker 2: feel so charged anymore for me is that when someone
Speaker 2: is upset, I can honestly really look at them and say, well,
Speaker 2: this has nothing to do with you. This is the
Speaker 2: boundary for my life. This isn't personal about you as
Speaker 2: a person as a soul, but this is what's required
Speaker 2: for my life, and it gets applied to everyone.
Speaker 1: So good, Debby, absolutely amazing. You talk about naming your
Speaker 1: wounds and how there's strength in it, and thank you
Speaker 1: for that. How does a person name their wounds.
Speaker 2: It is a long, slow, beautiful process. Our healing is
Speaker 2: a lot of things, but one thing it isn't is
Speaker 2: like a one weekend session of something right. It is
Speaker 2: the continued practice. It is building a system of curiosity
Speaker 2: with the way that you view yourself in your life,
Speaker 2: and so self awareness is what allows us to come
Speaker 2: into our healing. And the more self aware we become,
Speaker 2: the more we're able to look at the things that
Speaker 2: have really hurt us in our lives, the easier it
Speaker 2: is to look at our own behaviors and not be
Speaker 2: in judgment of them. Sometimes it's really hard for people
Speaker 2: to come into self awareness because being honest with yourself hurts,
Speaker 2: you know, it can feel really defeating For some people
Speaker 2: that have had traumatic backgrounds. It also means meeting experiences
Speaker 2: in their lives that didn't receive their consent, that they
Speaker 2: didn't deserve, and looking at that stuff is hard. It
Speaker 2: does feel easier to pretend things didn't happen. It does
Speaker 2: feel easier to bypass that and to just try to
Speaker 2: instantly push yourself into a positive thought, but it is
Speaker 2: not sustainable. Everyone who has ever tried that knows you
Speaker 2: may be projecting a look of yourself to the world,
Speaker 2: but you're not feeling it in your own heart. You
Speaker 2: deserve more. You deserve more. You deserve real healing, not
Speaker 2: performative healing. For that to happen, we just have to
Speaker 2: really be willing gently to look at the truth of
Speaker 2: our individual lives, the truth of our behavior, the truth
Speaker 2: of our experiences, as soon as we're able to do that.
Speaker 2: And for anyone listening that may have a story that
Speaker 2: you think that makes sense for everyone else, but not me,
Speaker 2: because this happened to me. Here you and it's about
Speaker 2: releasing yourself from that cell. It's about saying it out loud.
Speaker 2: It is about saying it and sharing it with trusted
Speaker 2: people who give you this space to talk about yourself
Speaker 2: without trying to cover you with their discomfort or their
Speaker 2: advice or their spiritual bypassing. It's about giving yourself, however
Speaker 2: much time you need to say it out loud, but
Speaker 2: saying it out loud so it can free you and
Speaker 2: you can release it and you can reframe the narrative
Speaker 2: of who you are and how you became that.
Speaker 1: As we hold our hearts and what you might want
Speaker 1: to call your abdomen or your stomach. Just take this
Speaker 1: hold and just let this just be stable center. In
Speaker 1: this last I closed my eyes as Debbie was talking,
Speaker 1: and I received it as a prayer, a prayer for
Speaker 1: myself and as a prayer for the person listening, and
Speaker 1: as a prayer for Debbie as she continues this healing
Speaker 1: work through individuals and for corporations and to the world
Speaker 1: that we continue healing.
Speaker 3: It is deserved.
Speaker 1: It's not for the rich person, it's not for the
Speaker 1: person that's never been abused.
Speaker 3: It is for you, and it's for me.
Speaker 2: You are loved.
Speaker 1: Know that. I don't care what your abuse and trauma.
Speaker 1: I don't care what the lies say to you. You
Speaker 1: are loved.
Speaker 3: We're with you. You're not alone.
Speaker 2: Release Release, Release, You deserve, you deserve, you deserve. Who
Speaker 2: do you want to be? Who are you being called
Speaker 2: to become?
Speaker 3: Grace and ease will cover you?
Speaker 1: Say? Yes? H m hm.
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Amen?
Speaker 2: Wow? Oh that was so be it? Oh my god. Wow.
Speaker 1: This is what checking in the Foundation must be about
Speaker 1: and must continue to be this.
Speaker 3: And thank you Debbie for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I really don't know if a close is necessary, so
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave it here. We're just Gonna let
Speaker 1: it breathe. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production
Speaker 1: of Iheartradius and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.