Speaker 1: Looking back at our thirty seven episodes of game Plan,
Speaker 1: we've had sixteen white male guests, twenty two white female guests,
Speaker 1: and five people of color. Today we're talking about diversity.
Speaker 1: This is game Plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm
Speaker 1: Francesco Levie, and this week we're talking about workplace diversity,
Speaker 1: which is something that a ton of companies struggle with
Speaker 1: and therefore pour a ton of money into trying to fix.
Speaker 1: Companies have come up with all different kinds of ways
Speaker 1: to try to correct when they've been criticized for not
Speaker 1: having diverse enough workforces. But the question is how well
Speaker 1: it's working. It's not it's not working. And we've seen
Speaker 1: this in the tech world where these companies put out
Speaker 1: these transparency reports, which is what I did at the
Speaker 1: top of the show, where they say like, look, we're
Speaker 1: going to be honest about our numbers, and then that's
Speaker 1: how we're going to fix it. And they'll have a
Speaker 1: breakdown of the makeup of the workforce, and then they'll
Speaker 1: pour a ton of money into all these initiatives and
Speaker 1: then put out a report the next year that shows
Speaker 1: that they've barely moved the needle. Yeah, it's interesting because
Speaker 1: the transparency report seems like a good first step, like
Speaker 1: we have to kind of come to grips with what
Speaker 1: the problem is before we can start solving it. So
Speaker 1: it seems like companies should be getting somewhere right putting
Speaker 1: these transparency reports up. But as you say, whatever they're
Speaker 1: doing as a second step doesn't seem to be exactly
Speaker 1: the right thing. Yeah, it's kind of funny because the
Speaker 1: press cycle is like, oh, applause your transparency report, and
Speaker 1: then the next year you just open yourself up to like,
Speaker 1: how not far this company has come right, or you
Speaker 1: don't release the transparency report because your numbers are too embarrassing,
Speaker 1: and then everybody asks why right, So what exactly our
Speaker 1: companies doing well. One really in vogue thing is this
Speaker 1: unconscious bias training, which didn't exist until fairly recently and
Speaker 1: is a way of getting employees to like understand their
Speaker 1: own biases that are inside of us all. So it's
Speaker 1: not like you're a bad person. It's like we're all
Speaker 1: bad people. It's not like weed out the racists at
Speaker 1: your job. It's like except that everyone's vulnerable to having
Speaker 1: a kind of prejudicial way of looking at things. And
Speaker 1: then work towards solutions. Sounds great, could be issues? Well,
Speaker 1: you and I took the test. Yes, there is a
Speaker 1: test you can take online to evaluate your own unconscious bias. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's like there are multiple different ones, and you
Speaker 1: and I took the one that was about women in
Speaker 1: the workplace and and if we are biased towards women
Speaker 1: in the workplace, And we found out that we are
Speaker 1: biased towards women in the work place. Yeah. The interesting
Speaker 1: thing for me was I think I rated worse than
Speaker 1: you did. I got like the most biased their stream.
Speaker 1: And we talked about how we thought we would do,
Speaker 1: and my sense was, like, I I can come to
Speaker 1: terms with the fact that I have internalized bias like
Speaker 1: everyone else. I'm not special, But in my heart of hearts,
Speaker 1: I was kind of expecting your hoping that I would
Speaker 1: do like a little bit better an average. Yeah, you were.
Speaker 1: You were having trouble coming to terms of it, right,
Speaker 1: And I was inclined to almost like dismiss the results
Speaker 1: when it turned out that I was really biased, Like
Speaker 1: I had a very strong association between ideas about careers
Speaker 1: with men and ideas about family with women. So is
Speaker 1: that the problem with those kinds of trainings, like you
Speaker 1: go into it seemingly with an open mind, but then
Speaker 1: you just believe what you want to believe about yourself
Speaker 1: in the end. Anyway, I do think that is one
Speaker 1: of the problems. I know that people don't like being
Speaker 1: called out. And even though unconscious biased training tries to
Speaker 1: be a little bit more like we mentioned, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's not you, it's the world we live in.
Speaker 1: I think what happened to you is the computer was
Speaker 1: telling you that you were strongly biased, and your reaction
Speaker 1: was to say, no, I'm not right. That doesn't fit
Speaker 1: with my idea of myself. So I'm just not going
Speaker 1: to use that information. Yeah, I think people have an
Speaker 1: aversion to being told to like sit down and be
Speaker 1: better when they think that they're pretty good. Another thing
Speaker 1: that people have found with unconscious bias training is that
Speaker 1: research suggests that when you tell people how bias the workplaces,
Speaker 1: they're more likely to just accept it, which I thought
Speaker 1: was really fascinating. Yeah, it's like normalizes the bias. So
Speaker 1: you're like, well, this is just the way things are,
Speaker 1: and so maybe you become complacent. Yeah, which seems crazy
Speaker 1: to me, but research it's science and science, so these
Speaker 1: are some of the ways that companies are trying to
Speaker 1: address the problem of diversity. And it seems like a
Speaker 1: no brainer that diversity would be a thing that you want,
Speaker 1: like a good thing in a company, But it does
Speaker 1: seem like there have been a lot of cases made
Speaker 1: for diversity that are beyond Just like diversity is good,
Speaker 1: having people that look different from you is a plus
Speaker 1: because it's a social good. Right. Oh yeah, I've talked
Speaker 1: to many people who are like, well, why it doesn't
Speaker 1: really matter, And there are a ton of studies and
Speaker 1: research showing that when companies are made up of different
Speaker 1: types of people with different ideas, who come from different backgrounds,
Speaker 1: they have better bottom lines. I mean, we've talked about
Speaker 1: this specific with women, but having women in leadership roles
Speaker 1: leads to higher returns for companies specifically, which is crazy,
Speaker 1: and the same is true for any type of diversity.
Speaker 1: So that's like one way to counter this narrative of
Speaker 1: people only care because they feel bad. Yeah, that to
Speaker 1: me makes intuitive sense because the way you end up
Speaker 1: with companies that aren't diverse to begin with is because
Speaker 1: people are hiring people that look like them and remind
Speaker 1: them of themselves. So when you have teams that are
Speaker 1: made up of a bunch of different people with a
Speaker 1: bunch of different perspectives. They're going to bring different ideas
Speaker 1: to the table and challenge the things that you're comfortable with,
Speaker 1: and that usually makes for better work. Yeah, we've seen
Speaker 1: this with Twitter specifically. Twitter has a huge harassment problem.
Speaker 1: I've been harassed on Twitter. We've had a guest who's
Speaker 1: been her ass on Twitter, and I've talked a lot
Speaker 1: of engineers who said there are simple ways Twitter could
Speaker 1: have baked into their platform that would reduce harassment. But
Speaker 1: because the people making the platform, we're all coming from
Speaker 1: a place where they probably weren't going to be harassed,
Speaker 1: they didn't think of it. And this happens with tech
Speaker 1: products all the time. But it's kind of annoying that
Speaker 1: we even have to make excuses for why we need
Speaker 1: workplace diversity. Right. Think, companies need to know what it
Speaker 1: means for their bottom line, right, Like, shouldn't it be
Speaker 1: enough that keeping systematically marginalized people out of power and
Speaker 1: money is bad and that we shouldn't do that and
Speaker 1: we try to do better? Like shouldn't that be just
Speaker 1: a nice goal to have? Yeah? It should? I mean
Speaker 1: it does. It does feel a little bit gross to
Speaker 1: have to make the case, make the money case for diversity.
Speaker 1: So I see what you're saying there, But I also
Speaker 1: think that the business case for diversity and the fact
Speaker 1: that diversity is just a social good aren't totally mutually exclusive.
Speaker 1: Like when you have more diverse teams often, I think
Speaker 1: a thing that happens is that women and people of
Speaker 1: color and people from all different diverse backgrounds and points
Speaker 1: of view tend to have a better eye for seeing
Speaker 1: the issues of those communities. And that's why, you know,
Speaker 1: issues that are directly linked to discrimination and diversity, like
Speaker 1: Twitter's harassment problem, are better addressed by people in those groups.
Speaker 1: So there's at a bit of overlap to me to like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a social justice thing, but also like the people
Speaker 1: who are the social justice warriors are often the people
Speaker 1: in the marginalized group. Yeah. Yeah, And I think companies,
Speaker 1: I mean, if they don't know it, they they something
Speaker 1: happens that makes them realize that, like they have some
Speaker 1: big problem within their culture, like at Uber for example,
Speaker 1: where there's been harassment or things like that, so it
Speaker 1: forces them to reckon with it. But I still think
Speaker 1: we're stuck with this problem of what to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and as you say, there are these initiatives companies have
Speaker 1: spent a lot of money on and then they've proven
Speaker 1: not to work or they haven't worked as well as
Speaker 1: people would like. And I think that that can easily
Speaker 1: lead people to say, oh, well, I guess these programs
Speaker 1: don't work, and sort of become complacent and not do
Speaker 1: anything about it. But despite all of these issues and complications,
Speaker 1: there are people trying to fix things in various different
Speaker 1: ways and seeing some levels of success. And we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about that with our guests today. Ellen Powe
Speaker 1: was an investment partner at Kleiner Perkins, which she sued
Speaker 1: for a gender discrimination she lost. After that, she went
Speaker 1: on to be the CEO of Reddit, and now she's
Speaker 1: an investment partner at k pre Capital and the Chief
Speaker 1: Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the k Porse Center. She
Speaker 1: also co founded projects include a diversity Consultancy. Thanks for
Speaker 1: coming on, Allen, Thanks for having me. We've been talking
Speaker 1: about bias in the workplace, and I was wondering when
Speaker 1: did you first become aware of bias? When did it
Speaker 1: become an issue for you in your career? I think
Speaker 1: it's been a small issue that I focused on as
Speaker 1: being a problem with individuals. So I think of it
Speaker 1: as well, that one guy is being kind of a pain,
Speaker 1: or that one person is really making it hard for
Speaker 1: me to get my ideas across, or that one person
Speaker 1: isn't listening to me, and I didn't think of it
Speaker 1: as being um a broader issue. And tell I really
Speaker 1: got into tech, and specifically into venture capital. Then once
Speaker 1: I started seeing like, these patterns are not limited to individuals.
Speaker 1: It's actually a lot of people and it's making it
Speaker 1: impossible for me to do my job effectively, then you know,
Speaker 1: I started thinking more about the bigger problems in tech
Speaker 1: and the bigger problems in venture capital. Were you comparing
Speaker 1: your experiences with other people? Like, what was it about
Speaker 1: your experience in tech that made you realize it was
Speaker 1: a broader pattern. It was comparing my experiences along with
Speaker 1: other women at my firm to the experiences of the
Speaker 1: men at the firm and seeing like this much bigger
Speaker 1: pattern and it wasn't just about me, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: just about one or two people making it hard for
Speaker 1: me to be successful. It was about a much broader problem,
Speaker 1: and it was hitting these other women, and it was,
Speaker 1: you know, much more systemic. Can you give some examples
Speaker 1: of the things that you faced, um, I think the
Speaker 1: biggest one was um just seeing how the opportunities weren't
Speaker 1: coming to the women, where we were limited in the
Speaker 1: number of companies we could invest in and the men
Speaker 1: were not. So there were rules that the women were
Speaker 1: bound to and men were not bound to. How aware
Speaker 1: do you think people should be about bias like this, Like,
Speaker 1: if you're a woman, should you be looking for examples
Speaker 1: where you might be treated unfairly or should you be
Speaker 1: trying to kind of just do the best job you
Speaker 1: can and hope you get treated fairly. I think you
Speaker 1: do the best job you can and hope you get
Speaker 1: treated fairly, But you should also be aware that you're
Speaker 1: not always going to be treated fairly and spending a
Speaker 1: lot of time trying to fix you know, are you
Speaker 1: too loud or you too quiet? Are you too aggressive
Speaker 1: or you're not speaking up enough? Are you getting your
Speaker 1: seat at the table? Like trying to micro analyze every
Speaker 1: one of your activities is probably not the best piece
Speaker 1: of your time. Just do the best that you can
Speaker 1: and push forward and try to you know, see what
Speaker 1: is going around you, so you're not spending a lot
Speaker 1: of time self diagnosing a problem that you have no
Speaker 1: control over. Right, So being realistic is important so that
Speaker 1: you know, these are things that I can change, and
Speaker 1: these are things that are just in the culture that
Speaker 1: I can't change and that I just have to deal
Speaker 1: with hopefully will change over time, and you know, I'll
Speaker 1: speak up and try to make a difference, but I'm
Speaker 1: not going to beat myself over the head for not
Speaker 1: having done everything perfectly because it's just not um my
Speaker 1: fault all the time. Yeah, it's interesting. It seems like
Speaker 1: you don't have the individualistic lean in perspective. And I
Speaker 1: know that when you went to read it where you
Speaker 1: were the CEO, you tried to change things from the inside.
Speaker 1: So you got rid of salary negotiations which tend to
Speaker 1: penalize women, and you instituted new harassment policies. Um, how
Speaker 1: did trying to change the system work out? It was hard.
Speaker 1: It's you know, even from the CEO level, you're trying
Speaker 1: to change people's behavior. You're trying to change people's attitudes,
Speaker 1: and it's very hard. But you have the tools and
Speaker 1: you have the ability to do it. You know, if
Speaker 1: somebody doesn't agree, or if somebody is going to continue
Speaker 1: the bad behavior, you can fire them. So it was
Speaker 1: nice from that perspective of having some more control, But
Speaker 1: it is an effort, like it takes work, and you
Speaker 1: have to have some hard conversations about what's appropriate and
Speaker 1: what's inappropriate and then changing it is really hard because
Speaker 1: it's like all the stuff that was allowed before, I'm
Speaker 1: changing because it's actually not inclusive of all the people
Speaker 1: on our teams. And for some people, you know, you
Speaker 1: end up being the person who's you know, a kill joy,
Speaker 1: as a buzz kill, the you know, the party pooper,
Speaker 1: and you know, you have to just be willing to
Speaker 1: take that like and understand, if I can make everybody
Speaker 1: and feel included, I feel like they belong and do
Speaker 1: their best work, it is better for everyone. It's better
Speaker 1: for the company, it's better for UM, the industry, and
Speaker 1: it's something that's going to have these long term gains.
Speaker 1: And if I have to have a few uncomfortable conversations
Speaker 1: to do that, it's worth it and us to just
Speaker 1: do it. So that was you know that it was
Speaker 1: very fulfilling to see so many changes UM. But there's
Speaker 1: just so much work and it was hard, and not
Speaker 1: everybody liked it. Why do you think companies have such
Speaker 1: a hard time solving issues of diversity and bias? Oh?
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of reasons. I think
Speaker 1: one big reason that makes it really hard is that
Speaker 1: everybody wants to be somebody Almost everybody wants to be
Speaker 1: somebody who is is inclusive. You know, they don't aspire
Speaker 1: to be somebody who is biased against certain groups. They
Speaker 1: don't aspire to be racist or homophobic or xenophobic. They
Speaker 1: want to think of themselves as being inclusive and fair
Speaker 1: and supportive of all these different groups. So when you
Speaker 1: call out, hey, this policy actually is not inclusive, or
Speaker 1: this is actually a really having a really bad impact
Speaker 1: on a certain set of people, it interferes with their
Speaker 1: view of themselves and it's not consistent, and so it's
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable. And do you want to admit that you've
Speaker 1: put in place some policies that are actually completely unfair. No,
Speaker 1: So that becomes very uncomfortable for people to sit with
Speaker 1: and to try to change because they don't want to
Speaker 1: believe that there is this unfairness in their culture and
Speaker 1: their company and their policies in themselves. And I think
Speaker 1: the other part is it really takes change from the top.
Speaker 1: It takes the CEO saying when there's that star engineer
Speaker 1: who makes the inappropriate jokes, who has an inappropriate behavior,
Speaker 1: I'm willing to fire them, even if it means the
Speaker 1: product is going to shift later, or it's not going
Speaker 1: to be as good, or I can't solve certain problems.
Speaker 1: I'm going to take a stand and say that our
Speaker 1: values are for inclusion, were anti harassment, where you know,
Speaker 1: anti sexism or anti racialism, were anti um exclusion. And
Speaker 1: I'm going to make that hard decision. And that comes
Speaker 1: from the top, That comes from CEO. So getting the
Speaker 1: CEO to engage and to solve these problems and to
Speaker 1: make those hard decisions and the hard trade offs can
Speaker 1: be really difficult. Yeah, we saw that play out at Uber.
Speaker 1: Basically the CEO took a really long time for him
Speaker 1: to come around, and the problems just that whereas the
Speaker 1: worse it's hard. And then once it's baked into the
Speaker 1: whole company, you can't just hire some more people or
Speaker 1: fire a few people. It's you need to think about
Speaker 1: how you're going to change, how you have a whole
Speaker 1: hiring process, how you think about promoting people, how you
Speaker 1: think about how opportunities are distributed across the team, how
Speaker 1: you think about even firing people, or you know, how
Speaker 1: people leave. It's across like the whole course of every
Speaker 1: interaction that you have to make sure is fair and
Speaker 1: giving everybody the same opportunities. And that's a lot of work.
Speaker 1: So it doesn't sound like you think that, you know,
Speaker 1: discrimination at work is just this intractable problem that no,
Speaker 1: you can sort of figure out. It's more that people
Speaker 1: lack the openness or the honesty with themselves to really
Speaker 1: tackle it in the way that they need to. What
Speaker 1: policies do you think work? Um, I think the policies
Speaker 1: that are helpful are you know, making sure that you're
Speaker 1: looking at you're not just taking everything cookie cutter from
Speaker 1: these big companies that have been successful and trying to
Speaker 1: repeat them, but really looking at, you know, eliminating forms
Speaker 1: of bias by taking different technology tools to make sure
Speaker 1: that you know you're not eliminating candidates based on names
Speaker 1: or based on you know, assumed groups and bias in
Speaker 1: how you think about those groups and giving up their
Speaker 1: assessment of that candidate. That's related to the work that
Speaker 1: they're going to be doing and the contributions are expected
Speaker 1: to be making and not the relationships that they have
Speaker 1: or the UM schools that they went to. So really
Speaker 1: trying to create this fair experience across the board is,
Speaker 1: you know, take changing your hiring policies. It takes changing
Speaker 1: your interviewing practices or building new ones from scratch that
Speaker 1: are different from the ones that we've used for ages,
Speaker 1: the whiteboard, the team interview, all of the things that
Speaker 1: have UM baked into some of these larger companies. We
Speaker 1: need to think about resetting and forming new ones and
Speaker 1: figuring out, like what are the innovations that we can
Speaker 1: do and move away from these traditions that have kept
Speaker 1: us at these low numbers of underrepresented groups and move
Speaker 1: into this new world where eventually we're going to be
Speaker 1: you know, half half under representation groups and they're no
Speaker 1: longer going to be underrepresented in the population. So the
Speaker 1: things that you mentioned like changing hiring practices, UM and
Speaker 1: other forms of of waves of combating bias. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know companies are pouring a lot of money into
Speaker 1: doing these things already and a lot of it's not working.
Speaker 1: So what is different about project includes approach I think
Speaker 1: there's um three big differences. One, when we talk about inclusion,
Speaker 1: we talk about inclusion of everybody. A lot of these
Speaker 1: companies are focused on gender, and if they think they
Speaker 1: can do gender, they'll do gender and maybe race UM,
Speaker 1: but they're not thinking about inclusion across the board. When
Speaker 1: we talk about inclusion, it's every single group. So we're
Speaker 1: not looking at having an in group that's a little
Speaker 1: bit bigger because we've added the women to it, or
Speaker 1: we've added underrepresented people of color. It's we are trying
Speaker 1: to come up with practices that help everybody. So when
Speaker 1: we talk about making UM things inclusive, it means getting
Speaker 1: rid of all the barriers that create an in group
Speaker 1: versus an out group. If you have that dynamic where
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're adding one more group to
Speaker 1: the in group, your culture is still exclusive, like you
Speaker 1: still have an in group and an app group, and
Speaker 1: that creates um. You know, that creates a culture of exclusion.
Speaker 1: If you can include everyone, then you're really thinking about
Speaker 1: how can I make every activity open, How can I
Speaker 1: make sure that everybody feels like they belong, How can
Speaker 1: I make sure that everybody is welcome. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a different approach. The second one is it's comprehensive. A
Speaker 1: lot of companies, you know, come in and they'll do
Speaker 1: some training, and it's been shown that standalone training is
Speaker 1: not effective and sometimes it's actually reinforcing of biases. So
Speaker 1: our view is you need to think about the employee
Speaker 1: life cycle and all the interactions that the employee has
Speaker 1: across their work day and across their work experience to
Speaker 1: make sure that all of those interactions are you know,
Speaker 1: are are welcoming and inclusive, and you're not looking at
Speaker 1: promoting people in a way that's biased. You're not looking
Speaker 1: at UM salaries and paying people in a way that's biased.
Speaker 1: You're trying to eliminate as much of that unfairness as
Speaker 1: you can. And then the last part, which we think
Speaker 1: is really important, which really distinguishes us from some of
Speaker 1: these other UM programs, is UM it's got to be
Speaker 1: measured and people have to be helped accountable for the
Speaker 1: level of diversity on their teams and their organizations and
Speaker 1: also how those teams feel, what the sentiments levels are.
Speaker 1: And we have a survey that has eight different areas
Speaker 1: of sentiment that we examined to see whether you know
Speaker 1: each group is satisfied with how decisions are made, or
Speaker 1: satisfied with opportunities, or satisfied with how they're treated and
Speaker 1: how other groups are treated. So it's a very UM
Speaker 1: data based approach to making sure that every group feels
Speaker 1: included and if there is a problem, figuring out what
Speaker 1: group doesn't feel included and exactly why, so that you
Speaker 1: have something very specific to UM look at. We do
Speaker 1: have a set of eighties seven I think recommendations on
Speaker 1: our website and those companies that are still at the
Speaker 1: really early stages can go through and read all of
Speaker 1: those recommendations and figure out which ones they want to
Speaker 1: start out with. But this comprehensive nature and comprehensive approach
Speaker 1: gives you a lot of opportunities to start an experiment
Speaker 1: and move forward. So those are eight seven recommendations for
Speaker 1: ways to have more diversity. Yeah, and make sure that
Speaker 1: you're inclusive. So when you have an event, like what
Speaker 1: are things that you can do to make sure that
Speaker 1: people feel included. Don't have all of your events at
Speaker 1: the same time on the same day. Maybe you have
Speaker 1: parents who can't come after work, so maybe you do
Speaker 1: something in the morning or during the day at lunch,
Speaker 1: you know, so just small things that that um make
Speaker 1: a difference, and also large things like you know, bring
Speaker 1: in UM you know, bring in a better way of
Speaker 1: dealing with harassment complaints. You know, So a wide range
Speaker 1: across every activity that we could think of where you
Speaker 1: could have an impact by making a change that might
Speaker 1: help make people feel more included. What are some of
Speaker 1: the changes you've seen or the practices at these companies
Speaker 1: that are kind of well on their way to becoming
Speaker 1: more diverse and inclusive. What are some of those things
Speaker 1: that packed the biggest punch like that that work best.
Speaker 1: It's hard to say because there's not Everybody wants like,
Speaker 1: what are the three things? And there isn't. It's really
Speaker 1: there probably ten or fifteen things. I think there's certain
Speaker 1: things that we know don't work. So having the standalone
Speaker 1: I'm going to do some diversity or biased training and
Speaker 1: I hope that's a silver bullet that's alsold my problems
Speaker 1: that does not work. Having data helps a lot, so
Speaker 1: that you're actually tracking and seeing where things are going
Speaker 1: and seeing is it that I'm hiring people and they're
Speaker 1: leaving because they don't get promoted, or they're leaving because
Speaker 1: they um aren't being welcomed right from the bat, like,
Speaker 1: where are the people leaving? Why are my numbers low?
Speaker 1: It's more than just bringing in a lot of people
Speaker 1: and just hiring them in and hoping that they swim right.
Speaker 1: It's thinking across the entire organization. What's more, what's not working,
Speaker 1: and how do you make things better? I think having
Speaker 1: I think one of the problems that has compounded low
Speaker 1: diversity demographics at certain companies is the referral programs. Often
Speaker 1: companies will have a program where they give employees a
Speaker 1: bonus maybe five thousand, maybe ten dollars if one of
Speaker 1: their recommended people gets hired. So, you know, I'm an
Speaker 1: engineer at a company, I'm excited because I can bring
Speaker 1: in my friends and get some money for it. And
Speaker 1: you end up bringing more of the same people, people
Speaker 1: who want the same schools. You end up baking in
Speaker 1: a certain type of person, and it gets worse and
Speaker 1: worse as those people bring in more of their like
Speaker 1: minded and like background friends, and it becomes all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you have a culture and it's all people
Speaker 1: from the same school or it's all people from the
Speaker 1: same demographic. Um dropping that referral bonus or adding a
Speaker 1: net for bonus for bringing in people from different backgrounds
Speaker 1: can can help a lot. UM The interview process is
Speaker 1: a huge problem because often they're very specific. There might
Speaker 1: be some very specific, kind of almost gimmicky questions that
Speaker 1: get asked, kind of trick questions, and if you have
Speaker 1: a friend in the company who can warn you about
Speaker 1: it and help you prep, you can be at a
Speaker 1: very strong advantage compared to you know, somebody who doesn't
Speaker 1: have a friend at the company. So again you end
Speaker 1: up making in people who know people at the company
Speaker 1: and who are potentially very similar, and you don't get
Speaker 1: the people from outside who are coming in cold and
Speaker 1: don't have the benefit of knowing what the tricks are
Speaker 1: to passing the interview process. It sounds like the reason
Speaker 1: diversity is so hard to tackle is that around every
Speaker 1: corner there is something that's going to buyas one group
Speaker 1: over another. UM and Francesca and I are dealing with
Speaker 1: us on our show. We UM think about it a lot,
Speaker 1: and we try to have diverse guests, but we aren't succeeding.
Speaker 1: So we're wondering what you think we should do two
Speaker 1: tackle our own biases. I think it's good that you're
Speaker 1: bringing up the problem, right, it's a problem that is
Speaker 1: one that needs to be recognized in order to change,
Speaker 1: and that you're bringing it up on your show. Hopefully
Speaker 1: people are appreciable the fact that you are trying and
Speaker 1: that you're interesting. It's interested in um bringing on people
Speaker 1: from different backgrounds and hopefully they'll sign up. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you know you you have an easy way
Speaker 1: of people volunteering to participate, but that's a great way
Speaker 1: of doing it, you know. And I will tell the
Speaker 1: people that I know that hopefully this will be a
Speaker 1: great podcast and UM and it's a great experience, and
Speaker 1: they should, you know, try to try to participate. It's
Speaker 1: asking the people that you know, UM, who else from
Speaker 1: different backgrounds would be good guests, and then going out
Speaker 1: and trying to get them onto the show and really
Speaker 1: kind of making that call out to people and letting
Speaker 1: them know that you're interested and open and that it's
Speaker 1: a place that they are going to be valued. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we do have a platform for for making those requests.
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting because Beck and I have
Speaker 1: talked about it and a lot of the people who
Speaker 1: are in the the field that we tend to interview.
Speaker 1: You know, we talk about workplace culture and and and
Speaker 1: social science around the office and behavior at work, and
Speaker 1: a lot of people just happened to be white men.
Speaker 1: So finding more diverse guests kind of means thinking a
Speaker 1: little more creatively about how, you know, what we think
Speaker 1: makes a good guest, not just you know, maybe someone
Speaker 1: who fits the mold of expert in this specific topic
Speaker 1: we want to talk about. And I think that probably
Speaker 1: mirrors the case for a lot of companies, like they
Speaker 1: have to they have to broaden their thinking about what
Speaker 1: makes a good employee, Um, what the metrics are and
Speaker 1: what the goals are there looking for? Right, Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I think it's a huge opportunity for creativity. So you
Speaker 1: could look through medium, you could look through Twitter, find
Speaker 1: some people who are really interesting and then decide, well,
Speaker 1: this is something that they're doing that we would never
Speaker 1: thought about, but it would be great to have them
Speaker 1: come and talk on the show. It can expand your
Speaker 1: range of what you're looking at in a way that
Speaker 1: can be really additive. There was a search I was
Speaker 1: doing for a CEO maybe eight years ago where you know,
Speaker 1: I we had hired a recruiter and I asked him
Speaker 1: to make sure that there was there were people from
Speaker 1: diverse backgrounds in the candidate pool. He went out and
Speaker 1: found some new candidates, and you know, one of them
Speaker 1: was a woman who you know, ended up not being
Speaker 1: the perfect fit for being a CEO, but ended up
Speaker 1: being a great UM entrepreneur and residence for Kinor Perkins.
Speaker 1: So we were able to bring in different candidates from
Speaker 1: a pool that we didn't have seen otherwise, you know.
Speaker 1: And then we also we found somebody from that company
Speaker 1: who ended up being the CEO of the company we're
Speaker 1: doing the soarce for. So we found somebody from the
Speaker 1: same company as the candidate who was a woman UM
Speaker 1: that end up being a great candidate and end up
Speaker 1: being the person who we made CEO. But we probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't have looked at that company if we hadn't expanded
Speaker 1: the search. That's definitely been um our experience when finding
Speaker 1: the more diverse guests. It's finding them through people who
Speaker 1: were guests that we really liked, who weren't exactly in
Speaker 1: the box in the mold. UM. So, I think that's
Speaker 1: really good advice. And this is this is all really
Speaker 1: good advice for us, And thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming on and talking to us and hopefully we can
Speaker 1: all do better. Yeah, thank you for having me. I
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Well, the takeaway for diversity from Ellen seems
Speaker 1: to be that you have to do a million zillion things.
Speaker 1: There's no like quick fix. Yeah. She was really reluctant
Speaker 1: to give us a silver bullet solution, which I respected.
Speaker 1: I think that that's the that's the recipe for frustration
Speaker 1: for anyone trying to solve this problem. And I can
Speaker 1: see why companies would hate that because because you send
Speaker 1: me like unconscious bias. Okay, we did it, we fixed diversity, right,
Speaker 1: And you spend all this money on a program that
Speaker 1: somebody guaranteed you was going to fix all of your problems,
Speaker 1: and then it didn't. So you're like out of options,
Speaker 1: you're out of ideas. You don't move on to the
Speaker 1: next step. And it would be a little hypocritical of
Speaker 1: us to hold companies accountable for giving lip service to
Speaker 1: diversity without doing anything about it if we didn't actually
Speaker 1: commit to doing something about our diversity problem. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: there were a lot of pieces of advice that she
Speaker 1: gave us that I thought were really good. One thing
Speaker 1: I think we can do right now is just say
Speaker 1: we want to do this. Yeah, if you, as a listener,
Speaker 1: have an idea for a topic or a guest or
Speaker 1: something that maybe you would not automatically expect to hear
Speaker 1: on our podcast, but would open us up to different
Speaker 1: points of view, please tweet us, call us, email us whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's one thing we can do. Also, she said
Speaker 1: to like ask people on your show you've had if
Speaker 1: they know people, which I've I've done that. Yeah, we've
Speaker 1: done a little bit of that. And I think that
Speaker 1: some of the things she told us for things we know, like,
Speaker 1: we know that it takes going outside of our comfort zone.
Speaker 1: It takes you know, reaching out to people that are
Speaker 1: in communities we don't always deal with and asking them
Speaker 1: for their recommendations. And this is such a common excuse.
Speaker 1: But one of the reasons we probably don't do it
Speaker 1: enough is because we just like feel this deadline pressure
Speaker 1: to get stuff done slightly harder, and it's slightly hard
Speaker 1: you don't do it. It's not even that much harder,
Speaker 1: it's just harder enough that if there's an easier way
Speaker 1: to do it, like sometimes it'll fall by the wayside.
Speaker 1: So we'll make a commitment to do better. Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: not just a transparency report, and that's time for happy
Speaker 1: big takes, happy fake takes. We have a half bake
Speaker 1: take from a caller. You two can call into our
Speaker 1: hotline at two on two six seven zero one six
Speaker 1: six And if you just want more of me and Francesca,
Speaker 1: we have a newsletter. You can find it at Bloomberg
Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletters. Hi, my name is Chris. My
Speaker 1: half bake take is I think daylight savings time should
Speaker 1: be permanent. I like having sunlight after I get out
Speaker 1: of work to go play with my friends or go
Speaker 1: out and eat, and I just think it should always
Speaker 1: be daylight savings time. Thanks, I'm I'm bored with us.
Speaker 1: I love sunshine, yes, absolutely, Um, why do we make
Speaker 1: the day's shorter as the year gets more depressing anywhere horrible?
Speaker 1: Like you go from a depressing for thirty sunset sometime
Speaker 1: in like you know, the late fall, to a depressing
Speaker 1: three thirty sunset. I have a half big take on
Speaker 1: his half big take is that daylight savings time, when
Speaker 1: we get to the good times, should be a holiday.
Speaker 1: I think it's a Sunday, but I think it's like
Speaker 1: we should all celebrate it like it's so exciting that
Speaker 1: it should be like have like a two am like
Speaker 1: exactly like that good happy Take me anyway, Francisca, what's
Speaker 1: your not really great idea that you want to share
Speaker 1: with us? This sounds a little less sunny, but I
Speaker 1: want to put an end to an insidious business practice
Speaker 1: that I hate, which is when, um, a certain type
Speaker 1: of savvy people person in a white collar work environment
Speaker 1: just like says your name back to you a million times.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean, Rebecca, Yes, Francisca, that's
Speaker 1: a really good point, Rebecca. Yeah. They clearly read some
Speaker 1: sort of blog post about like when friends at work.
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm onto you. I know you went to
Speaker 1: some management training that said that you would make people
Speaker 1: feel more special and more connected with you if you
Speaker 1: said their name and like you'd validate them. And it's like, no,
Speaker 1: you're just reminding me what my name is. I hate it.
Speaker 1: You sound phony. Although an amendment to that is I
Speaker 1: do think it's a really good mnemonic device to say
Speaker 1: somebody's name back to them when you meet them. I
Speaker 1: always do that. Nice to meet you, Rebecca. Is it
Speaker 1: it is? My friends called me a Becca? I'll always
Speaker 1: remember that because it came out of my mouth. Becca,
Speaker 1: what is your thought? That isn't enough of a thought
Speaker 1: to put into an article, but you'd like to talk
Speaker 1: about today. I think it's lame when people pretend to
Speaker 1: not be into their birthdays. I think it's like a
Speaker 1: cool thing in my cohort, Like I'm just I'm not
Speaker 1: really going to do anything this year. Yeah, birthdays getting older. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, your friends want to celebrate with you,
Speaker 1: and it's an excuse to do something fun. I totally
Speaker 1: agree birthdays, Like how do you get jaded about birthdays?
Speaker 1: I think there must be people who legitimately don't like them,
Speaker 1: but they're such an exciting thing when you're little and
Speaker 1: it kind of holds over into adulthood. And why shouldn't
Speaker 1: you like have this built an excuse to celebrate. I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of stress about like, well, anybody
Speaker 1: show up, and I don't want to make people spend money.
Speaker 1: But if you are just like I'm gonna do this
Speaker 1: fun thing, like come whatever, It'll be fun no matter
Speaker 1: whether anybody brings a gift or however many people show up,
Speaker 1: like what time of year is your birthday? For example, um,
Speaker 1: maybe this week it's in a couple of days and
Speaker 1: you're all invited to drinks. I really appreciate your enthusiasm
Speaker 1: about that, and this has been half big takes, half
Speaker 1: baked takes. Thanks for listening to another episode of Game Plan.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at RZ Greenfield and
Speaker 1: I'm at Francesca today. You can tweet us with your
Speaker 1: thoughts about the show, your halfag takes, and certainly your
Speaker 1: ideas for how we can become more diverse. You can
Speaker 1: also call us at two one to six one seven
Speaker 1: zero one six six. If you like the show, head
Speaker 1: on over to iTunes or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: podcast to rate and review and subscribe. We got another
Speaker 1: review and it rolled. The show is produced by Liz
Speaker 1: Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. Had a podcast is Alec McCabe
Speaker 1: See next week. M Nobody responded to my hilarious auto
Speaker 1: correct nickname Rebecca, which is ros like Rosy, which Frasier character.
Speaker 1: Are you yeah,