WEBVTT - Here's Why Your Company Is Still So White 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.680 Looking back at our thirty seven episodes of game Plan, 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:08.959 we've had sixteen white male guests, twenty two white female guests, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:14.240 and five people of color. Today we're talking about diversity. 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:29.120 This is game Plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:33.400 Francesco Levie, and this week we're talking about workplace diversity, 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.199 which is something that a ton of companies struggle with 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.920 and therefore pour a ton of money into trying to fix. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.240 Companies have come up with all different kinds of ways 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.479 to try to correct when they've been criticized for not 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.599 having diverse enough workforces. But the question is how well 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.040 it's working. It's not it's not working. And we've seen 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.519 this in the tech world where these companies put out 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.959 these transparency reports, which is what I did at the 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.319 top of the show, where they say like, look, we're 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.320 going to be honest about our numbers, and then that's 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.319 how we're going to fix it. And they'll have a 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.880 breakdown of the makeup of the workforce, and then they'll 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:09.840 pour a ton of money into all these initiatives and 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:11.640 then put out a report the next year that shows 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.040 that they've barely moved the needle. Yeah, it's interesting because 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.600 the transparency report seems like a good first step, like 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:18.160 we have to kind of come to grips with what 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:20.880 the problem is before we can start solving it. So 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.839 it seems like companies should be getting somewhere right putting 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.399 these transparency reports up. But as you say, whatever they're 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.400 doing as a second step doesn't seem to be exactly 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.520 the right thing. Yeah, it's kind of funny because the 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.280 press cycle is like, oh, applause your transparency report, and 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.120 then the next year you just open yourself up to like, 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.880 how not far this company has come right, or you 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.640 don't release the transparency report because your numbers are too embarrassing, 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.200 and then everybody asks why right, So what exactly our 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:53.000 companies doing well. One really in vogue thing is this 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:59.639 unconscious bias training, which didn't exist until fairly recently and 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.320 is a way of getting employees to like understand their 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:06.680 own biases that are inside of us all. So it's 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.760 not like you're a bad person. It's like we're all 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.680 bad people. It's not like weed out the racists at 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.760 your job. It's like except that everyone's vulnerable to having 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.840 a kind of prejudicial way of looking at things. And 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.400 then work towards solutions. Sounds great, could be issues? Well, 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:23.400 you and I took the test. Yes, there is a 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:28.120 test you can take online to evaluate your own unconscious bias. Yeah, 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:29.840 and it's like there are multiple different ones, and you 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:31.560 and I took the one that was about women in 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.840 the workplace and and if we are biased towards women 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:36.520 in the workplace, And we found out that we are 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.040 biased towards women in the work place. Yeah. The interesting 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.240 thing for me was I think I rated worse than 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.000 you did. I got like the most biased their stream. 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:46.960 And we talked about how we thought we would do, 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.880 and my sense was, like, I I can come to 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.760 terms with the fact that I have internalized bias like 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.840 everyone else. I'm not special, But in my heart of hearts, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.359 I was kind of expecting your hoping that I would 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.400 do like a little bit better an average. Yeah, you were. 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:03.919 You were having trouble coming to terms of it, right, 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.360 And I was inclined to almost like dismiss the results 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.840 when it turned out that I was really biased, Like 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:16.040 I had a very strong association between ideas about careers 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.320 with men and ideas about family with women. So is 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.080 that the problem with those kinds of trainings, like you 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.320 go into it seemingly with an open mind, but then 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.880 you just believe what you want to believe about yourself 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.080 in the end. Anyway, I do think that is one 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.640 of the problems. I know that people don't like being 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.600 called out. And even though unconscious biased training tries to 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.200 be a little bit more like we mentioned, you know, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.720 it's it's not you, it's the world we live in. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.400 I think what happened to you is the computer was 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:46.840 telling you that you were strongly biased, and your reaction 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.120 was to say, no, I'm not right. That doesn't fit 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.080 with my idea of myself. So I'm just not going 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.480 to use that information. Yeah, I think people have an 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.920 aversion to being told to like sit down and be 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.160 better when they think that they're pretty good. Another thing 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.960 that people have found with unconscious bias training is that 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.480 research suggests that when you tell people how bias the workplaces, 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.920 they're more likely to just accept it, which I thought 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.960 was really fascinating. Yeah, it's like normalizes the bias. So 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.360 you're like, well, this is just the way things are, 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.279 and so maybe you become complacent. Yeah, which seems crazy 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:22.080 to me, but research it's science and science, so these 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:23.800 are some of the ways that companies are trying to 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:25.920 address the problem of diversity. And it seems like a 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.480 no brainer that diversity would be a thing that you want, 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.920 like a good thing in a company, But it does 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.400 seem like there have been a lot of cases made 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.239 for diversity that are beyond Just like diversity is good, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.760 having people that look different from you is a plus 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.360 because it's a social good. Right. Oh yeah, I've talked 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.960 to many people who are like, well, why it doesn't 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.240 really matter, And there are a ton of studies and 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.640 research showing that when companies are made up of different 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.239 types of people with different ideas, who come from different backgrounds, 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.479 they have better bottom lines. I mean, we've talked about 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.520 this specific with women, but having women in leadership roles 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.719 leads to higher returns for companies specifically, which is crazy, 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:08.880 and the same is true for any type of diversity. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.479 So that's like one way to counter this narrative of 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.839 people only care because they feel bad. Yeah, that to 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.720 me makes intuitive sense because the way you end up 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.839 with companies that aren't diverse to begin with is because 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.440 people are hiring people that look like them and remind 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.960 them of themselves. So when you have teams that are 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:27.360 made up of a bunch of different people with a 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.840 bunch of different perspectives. They're going to bring different ideas 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.880 to the table and challenge the things that you're comfortable with, 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.920 and that usually makes for better work. Yeah, we've seen 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.159 this with Twitter specifically. Twitter has a huge harassment problem. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:43.279 I've been harassed on Twitter. We've had a guest who's 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:44.880 been her ass on Twitter, and I've talked a lot 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.479 of engineers who said there are simple ways Twitter could 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.600 have baked into their platform that would reduce harassment. But 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.480 because the people making the platform, we're all coming from 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.719 a place where they probably weren't going to be harassed, 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.920 they didn't think of it. And this happens with tech 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.880 products all the time. But it's kind of annoying that 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.719 we even have to make excuses for why we need 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.800 workplace diversity. Right. Think, companies need to know what it 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:09.839 means for their bottom line, right, Like, shouldn't it be 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:14.960 enough that keeping systematically marginalized people out of power and 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.680 money is bad and that we shouldn't do that and 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:19.880 we try to do better? Like shouldn't that be just 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:21.640 a nice goal to have? Yeah? It should? I mean 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.320 it does. It does feel a little bit gross to 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.200 have to make the case, make the money case for diversity. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.159 So I see what you're saying there, But I also 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.559 think that the business case for diversity and the fact 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.560 that diversity is just a social good aren't totally mutually exclusive. 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.719 Like when you have more diverse teams often, I think 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.120 a thing that happens is that women and people of 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.479 color and people from all different diverse backgrounds and points 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.800 of view tend to have a better eye for seeing 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.320 the issues of those communities. And that's why, you know, 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.000 issues that are directly linked to discrimination and diversity, like 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.440 Twitter's harassment problem, are better addressed by people in those groups. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.560 So there's at a bit of overlap to me to like, yeah, 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:04.400 there's a social justice thing, but also like the people 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.839 who are the social justice warriors are often the people 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.480 in the marginalized group. Yeah. Yeah, And I think companies, 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.280 I mean, if they don't know it, they they something 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:16.840 happens that makes them realize that, like they have some 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.120 big problem within their culture, like at Uber for example, 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.640 where there's been harassment or things like that, so it 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.080 forces them to reckon with it. But I still think 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.840 we're stuck with this problem of what to do. Yeah, 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.880 and as you say, there are these initiatives companies have 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.400 spent a lot of money on and then they've proven 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.720 not to work or they haven't worked as well as 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.400 people would like. And I think that that can easily 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.880 lead people to say, oh, well, I guess these programs 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.400 don't work, and sort of become complacent and not do 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:50.200 anything about it. But despite all of these issues and complications, 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.720 there are people trying to fix things in various different 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:56.080 ways and seeing some levels of success. And we're going 0:07:56.120 --> 0:08:03.600 to talk about that with our guests today. Ellen Powe 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.320 was an investment partner at Kleiner Perkins, which she sued 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.560 for a gender discrimination she lost. After that, she went 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.600 on to be the CEO of Reddit, and now she's 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.160 an investment partner at k pre Capital and the Chief 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.640 Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the k Porse Center. She 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:26.040 also co founded projects include a diversity Consultancy. Thanks for 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.720 coming on, Allen, Thanks for having me. We've been talking 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.640 about bias in the workplace, and I was wondering when 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.960 did you first become aware of bias? When did it 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.920 become an issue for you in your career? I think 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:44.120 it's been a small issue that I focused on as 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.000 being a problem with individuals. So I think of it 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.559 as well, that one guy is being kind of a pain, 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.640 or that one person is really making it hard for 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.640 me to get my ideas across, or that one person 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.920 isn't listening to me, and I didn't think of it 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:05.640 as being um a broader issue. And tell I really 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.600 got into tech, and specifically into venture capital. Then once 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.640 I started seeing like, these patterns are not limited to individuals. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.640 It's actually a lot of people and it's making it 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.080 impossible for me to do my job effectively, then you know, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.600 I started thinking more about the bigger problems in tech 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.800 and the bigger problems in venture capital. Were you comparing 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.160 your experiences with other people? Like, what was it about 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.000 your experience in tech that made you realize it was 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:35.520 a broader pattern. It was comparing my experiences along with 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.680 other women at my firm to the experiences of the 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.680 men at the firm and seeing like this much bigger 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.720 pattern and it wasn't just about me, and it wasn't 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.640 just about one or two people making it hard for 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.120 me to be successful. It was about a much broader problem, 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.120 and it was hitting these other women, and it was, 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.360 you know, much more systemic. Can you give some examples 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.280 of the things that you faced, um, I think the 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:08.560 biggest one was um just seeing how the opportunities weren't 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.679 coming to the women, where we were limited in the 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.120 number of companies we could invest in and the men 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.480 were not. So there were rules that the women were 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.520 bound to and men were not bound to. How aware 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.120 do you think people should be about bias like this, Like, 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.239 if you're a woman, should you be looking for examples 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.240 where you might be treated unfairly or should you be 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:30.880 trying to kind of just do the best job you 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.280 can and hope you get treated fairly. I think you 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.079 do the best job you can and hope you get 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.319 treated fairly, But you should also be aware that you're 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.800 not always going to be treated fairly and spending a 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.120 lot of time trying to fix you know, are you 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.320 too loud or you too quiet? Are you too aggressive 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.840 or you're not speaking up enough? Are you getting your 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.080 seat at the table? Like trying to micro analyze every 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.160 one of your activities is probably not the best piece 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.240 of your time. Just do the best that you can 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.240 and push forward and try to you know, see what 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.400 is going around you, so you're not spending a lot 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.960 of time self diagnosing a problem that you have no 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.720 control over. Right, So being realistic is important so that 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:09.840 you know, these are things that I can change, and 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.200 these are things that are just in the culture that 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.640 I can't change and that I just have to deal 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.240 with hopefully will change over time, and you know, I'll 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.360 speak up and try to make a difference, but I'm 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.319 not going to beat myself over the head for not 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:28.400 having done everything perfectly because it's just not um my 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.160 fault all the time. Yeah, it's interesting. It seems like 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:37.040 you don't have the individualistic lean in perspective. And I 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.400 know that when you went to read it where you 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.840 were the CEO, you tried to change things from the inside. 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.160 So you got rid of salary negotiations which tend to 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.319 penalize women, and you instituted new harassment policies. Um, how 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.400 did trying to change the system work out? It was hard. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.800 It's you know, even from the CEO level, you're trying 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.720 to change people's behavior. You're trying to change people's attitudes, 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.480 and it's very hard. But you have the tools and 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:03.959 you have the ability to do it. You know, if 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.240 somebody doesn't agree, or if somebody is going to continue 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.040 the bad behavior, you can fire them. So it was 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.400 nice from that perspective of having some more control, But 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.240 it is an effort, like it takes work, and you 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.120 have to have some hard conversations about what's appropriate and 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.959 what's inappropriate and then changing it is really hard because 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.800 it's like all the stuff that was allowed before, I'm 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.559 changing because it's actually not inclusive of all the people 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.960 on our teams. And for some people, you know, you 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.400 end up being the person who's you know, a kill joy, 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.080 as a buzz kill, the you know, the party pooper, 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.480 and you know, you have to just be willing to 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.000 take that like and understand, if I can make everybody 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.920 and feel included, I feel like they belong and do 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.440 their best work, it is better for everyone. It's better 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.800 for the company, it's better for UM, the industry, and 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.720 it's something that's going to have these long term gains. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.560 And if I have to have a few uncomfortable conversations 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.200 to do that, it's worth it and us to just 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.480 do it. So that was you know that it was 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.600 very fulfilling to see so many changes UM. But there's 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.120 just so much work and it was hard, and not 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:13.440 everybody liked it. Why do you think companies have such 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:19.120 a hard time solving issues of diversity and bias? Oh? 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:20.680 I think there are a lot of reasons. I think 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:25.280 one big reason that makes it really hard is that 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.240 everybody wants to be somebody Almost everybody wants to be 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.280 somebody who is is inclusive. You know, they don't aspire 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.760 to be somebody who is biased against certain groups. They 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.599 don't aspire to be racist or homophobic or xenophobic. They 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:45.240 want to think of themselves as being inclusive and fair 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.920 and supportive of all these different groups. So when you 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:54.560 call out, hey, this policy actually is not inclusive, or 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.600 this is actually a really having a really bad impact 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.959 on a certain set of people, it interferes with their 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.199 view of themselves and it's not consistent, and so it's 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.080 very uncomfortable. And do you want to admit that you've 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.000 put in place some policies that are actually completely unfair. No, 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:15.760 So that becomes very uncomfortable for people to sit with 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.679 and to try to change because they don't want to 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.760 believe that there is this unfairness in their culture and 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.800 their company and their policies in themselves. And I think 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:27.560 the other part is it really takes change from the top. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:33.120 It takes the CEO saying when there's that star engineer 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.480 who makes the inappropriate jokes, who has an inappropriate behavior, 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:42.160 I'm willing to fire them, even if it means the 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.800 product is going to shift later, or it's not going 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.720 to be as good, or I can't solve certain problems. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.080 I'm going to take a stand and say that our 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.240 values are for inclusion, were anti harassment, where you know, 0:14:54.280 --> 0:15:00.200 anti sexism or anti racialism, were anti um exclusion. And 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.960 I'm going to make that hard decision. And that comes 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.160 from the top, That comes from CEO. So getting the 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.000 CEO to engage and to solve these problems and to 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.560 make those hard decisions and the hard trade offs can 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.760 be really difficult. Yeah, we saw that play out at Uber. 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.200 Basically the CEO took a really long time for him 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.360 to come around, and the problems just that whereas the 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.240 worse it's hard. And then once it's baked into the 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:27.120 whole company, you can't just hire some more people or 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.400 fire a few people. It's you need to think about 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.080 how you're going to change, how you have a whole 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.120 hiring process, how you think about promoting people, how you 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:40.080 think about how opportunities are distributed across the team, how 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.360 you think about even firing people, or you know, how 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.040 people leave. It's across like the whole course of every 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.160 interaction that you have to make sure is fair and 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.720 giving everybody the same opportunities. And that's a lot of work. 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.080 So it doesn't sound like you think that, you know, 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.720 discrimination at work is just this intractable problem that no, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.200 you can sort of figure out. It's more that people 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:08.480 lack the openness or the honesty with themselves to really 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:09.960 tackle it in the way that they need to. What 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.000 policies do you think work? Um, I think the policies 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.760 that are helpful are you know, making sure that you're 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.920 looking at you're not just taking everything cookie cutter from 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.080 these big companies that have been successful and trying to 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.760 repeat them, but really looking at, you know, eliminating forms 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.840 of bias by taking different technology tools to make sure 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.760 that you know you're not eliminating candidates based on names 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:39.080 or based on you know, assumed groups and bias in 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.880 how you think about those groups and giving up their 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.240 assessment of that candidate. That's related to the work that 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.600 they're going to be doing and the contributions are expected 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.360 to be making and not the relationships that they have 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.640 or the UM schools that they went to. So really 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.040 trying to create this fair experience across the board is, 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.240 you know, take changing your hiring policies. It takes changing 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.760 your interviewing practices or building new ones from scratch that 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.520 are different from the ones that we've used for ages, 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.239 the whiteboard, the team interview, all of the things that 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.520 have UM baked into some of these larger companies. We 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.600 need to think about resetting and forming new ones and 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.479 figuring out, like what are the innovations that we can 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.280 do and move away from these traditions that have kept 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:32.520 us at these low numbers of underrepresented groups and move 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.600 into this new world where eventually we're going to be 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:39.040 you know, half half under representation groups and they're no 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.960 longer going to be underrepresented in the population. So the 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:46.119 things that you mentioned like changing hiring practices, UM and 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:50.080 other forms of of waves of combating bias. I mean, 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.320 I know companies are pouring a lot of money into 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.560 doing these things already and a lot of it's not working. 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.840 So what is different about project includes approach I think 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:05.000 there's um three big differences. One, when we talk about inclusion, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.680 we talk about inclusion of everybody. A lot of these 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.960 companies are focused on gender, and if they think they 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.040 can do gender, they'll do gender and maybe race UM, 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.080 but they're not thinking about inclusion across the board. When 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.320 we talk about inclusion, it's every single group. So we're 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.280 not looking at having an in group that's a little 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.800 bit bigger because we've added the women to it, or 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:32.880 we've added underrepresented people of color. It's we are trying 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.960 to come up with practices that help everybody. So when 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.119 we talk about making UM things inclusive, it means getting 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.200 rid of all the barriers that create an in group 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.720 versus an out group. If you have that dynamic where 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:47.639 all of a sudden you're adding one more group to 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.800 the in group, your culture is still exclusive, like you 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:52.560 still have an in group and an app group, and 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.520 that creates um. You know, that creates a culture of exclusion. 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.320 If you can include everyone, then you're really thinking about 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.119 how can I make every activity open, How can I 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.119 make sure that everybody feels like they belong, How can 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.280 I make sure that everybody is welcome. It's a it's 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.359 a different approach. The second one is it's comprehensive. A 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.520 lot of companies, you know, come in and they'll do 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:19.240 some training, and it's been shown that standalone training is 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.360 not effective and sometimes it's actually reinforcing of biases. So 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.240 our view is you need to think about the employee 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.360 life cycle and all the interactions that the employee has 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.919 across their work day and across their work experience to 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.879 make sure that all of those interactions are you know, 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:40.200 are are welcoming and inclusive, and you're not looking at 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.760 promoting people in a way that's biased. You're not looking 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.600 at UM salaries and paying people in a way that's biased. 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.040 You're trying to eliminate as much of that unfairness as 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.680 you can. And then the last part, which we think 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.520 is really important, which really distinguishes us from some of 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.120 these other UM programs, is UM it's got to be 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:02.200 measured and people have to be helped accountable for the 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.040 level of diversity on their teams and their organizations and 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:11.400 also how those teams feel, what the sentiments levels are. 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.160 And we have a survey that has eight different areas 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.479 of sentiment that we examined to see whether you know 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.000 each group is satisfied with how decisions are made, or 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.359 satisfied with opportunities, or satisfied with how they're treated and 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.800 how other groups are treated. So it's a very UM 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:34.520 data based approach to making sure that every group feels 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.600 included and if there is a problem, figuring out what 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.840 group doesn't feel included and exactly why, so that you 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.479 have something very specific to UM look at. We do 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.399 have a set of eighties seven I think recommendations on 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.200 our website and those companies that are still at the 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.760 really early stages can go through and read all of 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:55.879 those recommendations and figure out which ones they want to 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.359 start out with. But this comprehensive nature and comprehensive approach 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.879 gives you a lot of opportunities to start an experiment 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.320 and move forward. So those are eight seven recommendations for 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.959 ways to have more diversity. Yeah, and make sure that 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:12.800 you're inclusive. So when you have an event, like what 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.600 are things that you can do to make sure that 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.399 people feel included. Don't have all of your events at 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.080 the same time on the same day. Maybe you have 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.119 parents who can't come after work, so maybe you do 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.800 something in the morning or during the day at lunch, 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.120 you know, so just small things that that um make 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.119 a difference, and also large things like you know, bring 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.840