1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: Money, money. This is welcome today could happen here? It 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: is me Christopher Long. Uh, this is a This is 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: a podcast about things following apart, things putting back together again. 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: And also today it's just about money. Um. And also well, okay, 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: it is not just about money. It is about money 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: and is about seemingly seemingly esoteric arguments about the nature 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: of money that actually turned out to be extremely important 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 1: for any post revolutionary society or even just this society. 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, and and joining joining me to talk about 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: this are Kyle Flannery and Steve Manned, who are the 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: co editors of Strange Matters magazine, which is a new 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: workers co op that's in the middle of a fundraising drive. 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, ghost worth the magazine, and Steve and Kyle, 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. It's great to be here, Chris, 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: thanks for having us. The basis of this interview is 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: a piece that is coming out. Actually, when is it 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: coming out? That's that's a good question that I should 18 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: probably have asked of. Um, let's see, it will come 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: out later this month. Okay, Yeah, there'll be out later 20 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: this month. That is about the history of money and 21 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: what money is. So I guess we can we can 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: start there, which is, yeah, can can you walk us 23 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: through a bit about the debate over what money is 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: and how sort of various people have gotten parts of 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: it wrong in parts of it right. Sure. I got 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: into this debate as a economics graduate student in eleven 27 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,639 Speaker 1: and a book that really kind of shaped my initial 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: understanding was David Graeber's Depth the First five Thousand Years 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's excellent. Um It's it's very long, and 30 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: it's a bit scattered, but I love what he put 31 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: together with it. And um, so he kind of introduced 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: me to ideas of from a school of economic thought 33 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: called chartile is UM and Chartism is kind of the 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: theoretical forbear of m m T and mm T IS, 35 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: which is modern monetary theory is kind of in the 36 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: news now as a theory which is saying, like, okay, 37 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: if you if you're a government that issues its own money, 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: its own currency that is not really backed by anything, 39 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: it's not backed by any other currency or any other commodity, 40 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: then you don't really face a financial limit as far 41 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: as how much you can produce. You you're the sole 42 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: source of that money, and you can spend it into existence. 43 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: Spend by buying things the money into existence, and people 44 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: will accept it to the extent that they either need 45 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: it or they want it. And that's one theory that's 46 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: kind of in the air now. But chartali is Um, 47 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: over a hundred years before this is putting out very 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: similar ideas around money that is um created by states 49 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: in order to martial physical resources. They call it biophysical resources, 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: which is just a fancy word of meaning all of 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: the material people, techniques, UM, physical processes that are required 52 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: to create economic activity. So to the extent that people 53 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: either need or want your money, UM, you can use 54 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: it as a social technology sort of to marshal those 55 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: resources into action, and you being a state, chartalis Um says, 56 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: so from chartalism we got m MT. But David Graver's 57 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: book is about a lot more than just Churtalism and MT, 58 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: So it's about the origins of money, and origins of money, 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: it turns out, are at least five thousand years ago. 60 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: As the title says, UM, there are examples of early 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: accounting systems that are where people are just um. Rather 62 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: than there being a circulating medium of exchange type money 63 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: like a coin or something or a dollar bill, there 64 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: were just records of what people own and what people 65 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: owe and their debts and credits against each other, and 66 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: it was in early Mesopotamia there. So we have these 67 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: early accounting systems that yield more advanced credit systems over time, 68 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: that are ruled by temples UM, which are sort of 69 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: proto states in a way in terms of like they 70 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: administer the flow of goods and services through their territory 71 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: and between their territory and another temple's territory using their 72 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: domestic money, but also international money. International money was facilitated 73 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: through trade networks. Trade networks use things like UM. They 74 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: needed to convert between a domestic money and international money, 75 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: and Gregory goes through these like wonderful examples of UM, 76 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: silver and other medals being used as like international mean 77 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: of payment UM. That's sort of our term in our 78 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: piece basically, which is covering them foreign exchange. But UM. 79 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: He says, like, in order to get from the domestic 80 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: money into the international money UM, you need to have 81 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: these linkages of experts in the temple and the trade 82 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: networks to get together and make UM credit instruments which 83 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: knit them together into this trade network, and from there 84 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: we go into UM I don't want to spend too 85 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: much time on the history, but we go from there 86 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: to situations thousands of years later, we get coins. Coins 87 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: are being minted by starting in the roughly six hundred BC. 88 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: I want to say, Carl, yeah, that that sounds right, 89 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: So um the first someone can correct me if I'm wrong. 90 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: But I've been doing some homework on this because I've 91 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: been on a few podcasts and there's like like numismatis 92 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: in the comments and whatnot. But um, the first okay, 93 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: the first mixed gold and silver coin was sometime in 94 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: the seventh century BC, and the first gold coin was 95 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: not long after. I think it was like they were 96 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: both Lydian kings, like one after another. Anyway, I just 97 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: wanted to hit that because someone said I got wrong earlier. 98 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: But um uh. These coins were kind of the first 99 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: widely used sort of retail means of settling debts, like 100 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: at the point of sale between people. So it wasn't 101 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: just an accounting system. It was an elaborate credit system 102 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: with no circulating means of payment. It was a circulating 103 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: money now and it's getting around, um. Based on military 104 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: con quest. Military conquest in the Excellent Age spread the 105 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: use of coins much wider than the domestic spheres in 106 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: which they were first minted. Yeah, and I think we 107 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: should like just just to talk about about like roughly 108 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: when this is like you know like if if if 109 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: you go back, I mean this this is slightly later, 110 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: but one of the huge sort of like like the 111 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: periods where like the entire Mediterraneans using coinage, right is 112 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: you know you're this this is this is when you're 113 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: dealing with you're sort of like classical Greek, like you 114 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: if you have your gree your Greeks and your Persians 115 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: and you have your sort of like Athens and sparta 116 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: Um and that those guys are very much uh, they're 117 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: engaged in this thing that Graver calls the the military 118 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: industrial coinage slavery complex, the military industrial coinage complex. Yeah, 119 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think he has slavery on the end 120 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: because it's yeah, it's it's this giant sort of places, 121 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: giant warfare system, right, Like these are like like Athens 122 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: is an empire, right, They run around and they steal 123 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: they see people's gold, this golden silver byans, and they 124 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: like have slaves that work and this this whole sort 125 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: of like like yeah, you get the system of empire 126 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: that is like what the actual ages sort of defined by. Yeah. Yeah, 127 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: and it's like whereas previously, like so precious medals did circulate, 128 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: but they weren't in coin form, and they were more 129 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: as like a bulk means of payment stored from one 130 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: temple to the next, almost as if they are central banks. 131 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: But central banks don't exist yet, and actual actual age 132 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: coinage system gave rise to the more much more sophisticated 133 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: medieval coinage system. And I'm going breezily through this because um, 134 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: there's a lot there, but there's several thousands years they're 135 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: passing in a few minutes here, so UM, bear with me. 136 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: But there are there now in the Mediva, Medieval and 137 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: Renaissance times, not only do we have the coinage circulating, 138 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: but we also have credit instruments um which uh are 139 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: being submitted transferred transmitted rather between banks, uh, between banks 140 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: in different countries and territories that are saying, hey, you 141 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: don't even need to based on what is written on 142 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: this piece of paper, I already know you're good for it. 143 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: I will dispense with the coins uh that I have 144 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: in my bank because this paper signifies that they you're 145 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: good for it basically, and so that greatly speeds things 146 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: up in terms of UM settling commerce, debts and and 147 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: uh settling bills between different UM states. So but going 148 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: through all this history, the point of it is that 149 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: at every at every sort of step of the way, 150 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: you see, okay, there's a lot of different types of money. 151 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: They're circulating and they're being exchanged against one another, and 152 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: there also seems to be a domestic sphere and international sphere. 153 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: The international means of payment, which is a analytic category 154 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: that um I and my co author John Michael Cloone 155 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: thought up, is kind of sort of sets the tune 156 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: as far as what uh, what kind of hierarchy of money, 157 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: if you will, develops in each of these ages. So 158 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: like in the prior to the axcel Age, there were 159 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: there was bulk settlements from one temple to the next 160 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: in terms of silver, although it wasn't coins, it was 161 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: just UM like bullion basically UM. And then and then 162 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: later it was coins, and then later it was bills 163 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: of exchange. And then after a while there emerged gold 164 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: standards UM that existed between nations, and they had central 165 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: banks eventually which UM hoarded gold not because not just 166 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: because they are fetishizing it or something something basically like that, 167 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: but rather because it was the established international means of 168 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: payment and if you either you need that or you 169 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: need something that is easily transferable into that in order 170 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: to conduct your trade, especially if you're developing country or 171 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: um A otherwise like an upstart state of some type. 172 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: Now today we're in a dollarized world. The dollar is 173 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: the international means of payment from one onwards the M 174 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: M T story, Yeah, I mean that's basically true. The 175 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: E then the for the U S Government as the 176 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: issuer the sole issue of the dollar, which is a 177 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: fiat currency which is not backed by anything. Um yeah, 178 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: you can make as much of that as what you want. 179 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: You can make, you can create and spend into existence 180 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: as many dollars as the US government wants, and then 181 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: delete it from existence by taxing it away. And that 182 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: makes perfect sense. Totally acknowledged that. But there's some problems 183 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: nonetheless in terms of how they apply that into a 184 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: more general theory, because it's like, can you okay, you 185 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: can make as much of your own money, what about 186 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: other types of money from the perspective of a US 187 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: state craft interested individual like, why would you care about 188 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: other people's money? Basically, if you're just the full soul 189 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: source of the of the US dollar, which happens to 190 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: also be the international means of payment, of course you 191 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't are if you're like say to Tunisia. The Tunisian 192 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: dollar is accepted almost nowhere as payment. Yeah. And and 193 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: one one of the big things, I mean, it's not 194 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: the soul driver and people start found for emphasize this. 195 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to caveat this immediately because people will yell 196 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: at me. But like, one of one of the very 197 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: important things about the dollar is that the dollar is 198 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: what you can buy oil in. And this is extremely 199 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: important because if you are a society in the world, 200 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: you need oil. Um, basically universe really true, and and 201 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: this you know. And but the fact that you need 202 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: to buy oil, and and the fact that you you need 203 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: to buy a lot of other things that are manufactured 204 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: in the US means you have to find some way 205 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: to get U S dollars. Now again, the US doesn't. 206 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: This doesn't matter for the US because we can just 207 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: make them. Well, okay, a, this is another thing. This 208 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: stuff gets very weird and convoluted very quickly. Um, but 209 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: the essentially the US can just sort of make this 210 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: money technically speaking as the Federal Reserve, and there's all 211 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: of this just incredibly convoluted finance stuff. But yeah, the 212 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: the US like doesn't the US does not have to 213 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: worry about obtaining U S. Dollars. You could just do it. 214 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, if if you're if you're, if 215 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: you're I don't know if your trenisia, if you're Denmarks 216 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: an example, Yeah, Denmark, Yeah, like you you you need 217 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: to find a way to get U S dollars because 218 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: you need to have stuff where you need to use 219 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: U S dollars to buy it. Hm. Yeah. And so 220 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: in our national context, this is after all of the 221 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: history I just went through since about nineteen seventy one 222 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: or so when we went off the gold standard. Um, 223 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: we have a system of central banks dominated by the dollar, 224 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: and the dollar represents about of settlement of all trade, 225 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: and the next five or so currencies are plus the 226 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: US account for like a d of all trade. So 227 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: there's really just a few currencies which dominate everything, with 228 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: the US being outsized among them. And when you look 229 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: at the historical record, this is like very similar to 230 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: other forms of international means of payment where it's like, okay, 231 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: I either need to have the one that's at the 232 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: top or failing that, one of the other sort of 233 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: reserve currencies. Even though that that that terminology didn't really 234 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: exist prior to about eighty years ago. Um. But yeah, 235 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: so like if you don't if it's not gold, then okay, 236 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: it's the US dollar, So we need dollars or we 237 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: either need to be printing dollars because we're the U S. 238 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: Or for not them, then we need to get into 239 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: either U. S Dollar or the yen or the euro 240 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: or one of the major trading currencies. And um, like China, 241 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: China does a lot of trade with the US and 242 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: they sell things to us, we give them dollars. They're rational. 243 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: They put their dollars into treasuries to gain a little 244 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: bit of a return instead of just holding the dollars 245 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: themselves for no return. Do we explain, I guess what 246 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: a treasury is, because yeah, sorry, uh, the treasury bill 247 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: is if you receive dollars, you can use them to 248 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: purchase what's called a treasury note or a treasury bill 249 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: and notes too. So if you ever hear something to 250 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: talk about tea notes that that's what this is. Yeah, 251 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: so it's a way to learn. It's like moving from 252 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: your checking to your savings account essentially. So if you 253 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: have just dollars in a bank, it doesn't earn hardly anything. 254 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: If you're in a saving if you go into the 255 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: savings account, which is basically the treasury the Treasury bills, 256 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: you'll learn a little more and you'll learn dollars. You 257 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: won't earn remindy from them, you'll learn more dollars and 258 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: dollars for the national means of payments. So that's good. Yeah. 259 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: So so like basically like there's the US government puts 260 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: out a bond and like you buy it and then 261 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: when when whatever it like expires or there's like a 262 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: ten year tea note that people talk about that's like 263 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: years you buy it, and yeah, it'll get it'll give 264 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: you like a certain amount of dollars like later on 265 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: that is more than what you paid for it, hm exactly. 266 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: So you'll earn a little bit of interest over time, 267 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: and then you may earn like a little lump sum 268 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: when it matures in in the future. So China has 269 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: tons of dollars. It's part of a huge strategy that 270 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: they have in order to manage their foreign their foreign 271 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: currency reserves or what's called for X. So for X 272 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: is the that's the term. We're going to use a 273 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: lot um. That just is the foreign currency reserves you 274 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: have on hand in order to pay for things that 275 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: are only available for sale in currencies that you can't 276 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: make yourself. Okay, So you know, you have this question 277 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: of like why do we care about this? Like why 278 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: do we people who want to make the world better 279 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: care about this? And the answer is, okay, take take 280 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: take your hypothetical scenario, your your your hypothetical scenario is 281 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: the scenario in which like a a a bunch of 282 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: workers in alliance with like tribal confederations have taken Vancouver Island, right, 283 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: and they've set up a new They've they've set up 284 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: a new government that they have worked out sovereignty arrangements. 285 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: Things have happened. You now have a new you have 286 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: you have a new sort of entity that that is 287 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: in Vancouver Island. Um. Yeah, so so immediately you have 288 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: you have both you have both resources and you have problems. Right, 289 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: you have a certain amount of resources that are on 290 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: Vancouver Island, right, you have you know, you have like 291 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: you have literally like what what you have the things 292 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: that are on the island, right. You have cars, you 293 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: have like probably some yaches you've managed to like steal 294 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: you have you know, you have you have shops, you 295 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: have production facilities. You have extremely large number of very 296 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: good Chinese restaurants. Uh you have trees. Yeah, you know restaurants. 297 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: I mean also it's true like I yeah, my my 298 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: my family spent a lot of time like specifically going 299 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: going to Vancouver Island just to eat Chinese food. Uh. Yeah, 300 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, and say say, like, let let's say you've 301 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: taken Vancouver Island and you you expand out and you 302 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: now have like a swath of Canada, right that that 303 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: is that is that is now sort of been liberated. 304 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: And you know, you have you have you have a 305 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: lot of resources. You have sort of timber, you have 306 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe you have coal, maybe you have 307 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: other stuff you have you have and you also have 308 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: a lot of people and yeah, you have a lot 309 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: of labor and you know, and those people have a 310 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: lot of skills, they have a lot of education, they 311 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: have like you know, they have they have, they have 312 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: they have a belief that you can make the world 313 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: a better place. And I think this is where you 314 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: know this, This is this is the arena in which 315 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: MMT can sort of explain what you're doing next. Mhm yeah. 316 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: So you have this, um, you have a territory, this 317 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: undergone revolutionary change, and you have biophysical resources that are 318 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: in it and biophysical resources that could be in it. 319 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: And you have and you also have the social technology 320 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: of money. Some of the money you can just make yourself. 321 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: Other moneys you cannot. Um M m T in the 322 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: is applicable in the sense that it says in this scenario. 323 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: I think the most the way MMT is most applicable 324 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: is to say everyone can be employed. Who wants to 325 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: be employed, Yeah, there's they're the One of their principal 326 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: ideas is a job guarant a federal job guarantee, And 327 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: it could be a applied just as easily. Conceptually in 328 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: this situation. It says, UM, there's nothing preventing a revolutionary 329 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: government of some type UM, not necessarily a states, but 330 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: any any non state type of administration from setting up 331 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: something sort of like a central bank to make its 332 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: own money to martial domestic resources domestic in terms of 333 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: within its own territory and to get everyone everyone who 334 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: wants to be employed, to be employed and to be 335 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: paid for their work. Like not to be too vulgar, 336 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: but like why why this is stuff is important? This 337 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: monetary theory in this history is like people want to 338 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: be paid for their work. They're not going to go 339 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: inviter things. They want to get paid. Yeah, And I 340 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: think this is something that like you know, if if 341 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: if if you look at sort of like the thing 342 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: that gets held up was like the classic example of 343 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: an anarchist revolution, right is is what happens in Spain 344 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: machinety six. And if if if you look at what 345 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: they do right like they almost immediately after the revolution. 346 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: What happens is you have basically like a union of 347 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: all of the bank workers, and those guys take over 348 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: all the banks um and you you have you have 349 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: the individual work like workers in different unions start seizing, 350 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: they start seasing, the factories that start seizing like the trains. 351 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: And once they've done that, they start just pulling all 352 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: of their resources into you know, like in into like 353 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: they have they they now have this like they have 354 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: they have the banking union. The banking union is is 355 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: that the sort of central body that has resources that 356 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: can distribute it. And you know what, what what MMT 357 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: is essentially saying is like, yeah, so as long as 358 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: what you're moving around is the resources that you have 359 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: in your territory, like you can just create money in 360 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: order to do that, and you can sort of you know, 361 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: and you can use this to get people do certain things. 362 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: And like you know, the Catalonians, like they they the 363 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: equals if one's wages, for example, I mean, it would 364 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: be better if we equalize everyone's wages. I do agree 365 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, well, you know, I mean they did 366 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: do with a lot of other stuff that's like okay, 367 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: so like they get rid of a lot of jobs 368 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: that are like sort of managerial stuff or like just 369 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: bullshit jobs they just kind of eliminate and yeah, and 370 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: you know, and this this frees up people to like 371 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: do stuff that actually matters and is real instead of 372 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: sort of this like this sort of bureaucratic hierarchy that's 373 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: above them. And yeah, but and I think the other 374 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: thing they do that's that's very important for our sort 375 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: of scenario for us talking about money is that like 376 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: they they immediately start like they start seizing gold and 377 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: they start seizing, you know, like they start seusing foreign currency, 378 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: and yeah, and I think that this this is where 379 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: we can get into where where I guess MP doesn't 380 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: work because m t like it's it's, it's, it doesn't. 381 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: It doesn't really think much about the fact that like, Okay, 382 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: you have Vancouver Island, you have a part of like Canada, right, 383 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: there is a lot of resources that you don't have. Absolutely, Yeah, 384 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: that's that's that's gonna be a lot of why foreign 385 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: exchange matters so much as that. You know, you inevitably 386 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: you think, what if we just made an autarcic society. 387 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: That's sorry, that's a little I probably jump got a 388 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: little bit there. What if we just made everything ourselves? 389 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: What if we made a society that was fully economically independent? Um, 390 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: that's what autarchy tends to be used to mean. And 391 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: the answer to that is because that sucks. The problem 392 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: with it is that it sucks. Like you, you don't 393 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: want to be trying to manage an autartic society on 394 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: multiple grounds, uh, not least of which is that I mean, 395 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: we've we've we've seen societies try to do it, and uh, 396 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, we me, me and Steve could go for 397 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours talking about historical precedents of 398 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: previous economic systems, many of which did try to be autartic, 399 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: because that was something that monarchy has liked a lot, 400 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: was the idea that they're their kingdom could be fully independent. 401 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,719 Speaker 1: Because the thing is that when you're economically independent, that 402 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: means that you've got a certain amount of security of 403 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: international security. Uh, and there's kind of a trade off 404 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: where the more stuff that you're reliant on importing, the 405 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: more vulnerable you are to the people you're importing and 406 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: screwing you. But it's just so massively difficult to be 407 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: a good producer of every possible good. Yeah, and and 408 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: this and this is this is true even if you 409 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: have an annoyance amount of resources, like I think, you know, 410 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: we can talk about one case study of this, which 411 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: is socialist period China, and you know, social spirit China. 412 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: They they have they they're they're getting resources, and especially 413 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: the early periods, you're getting some resources from like Hong Kong, 414 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: they're getting some stuff from the Soviets, but you know, 415 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: they get into like Mao famously does not like markets. Um. 416 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: This is this is the thing that is known about Mao, 417 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: and so Mao is like, Okay, We're like no, we're 418 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: going to shut off the sort of like market system 419 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: that we that we've been running sort through Hong Kong. 420 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: And then you know, China have been getting technology transfers 421 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: and aid from the USSR. But you know, the US 422 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: are in China got into a bunch of political fights, 423 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: and the US are like pulls out all of advisors. 424 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: And you know China, China has an enormous amount of resources, right, 425 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: they have a large population, they have they have just 426 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: an enormous geographic mass, and so they basically try to 427 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: you know, build into target society and they try to 428 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: sort of just okay, well we'll just what does martial 429 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: resources and we'll just sort of like, well, we'll plan 430 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: a way out of it. And they run into this problem, 431 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: which is that there is actually things that they need 432 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: from other countries, which is technology. And they hit this 433 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: thing I've talked about before, which is, uh like they 434 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: basically get this bottle, this production bottleneck where it's like, well, okay, 435 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: so in order to produce more industrial goods, than need 436 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: more food. But the problem is, in order to produce 437 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: more food to support a large urban population. Uh, you 438 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: need more industrial goods, right, You need your like fertilizers, 439 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: need your tractors and need stuff like that, and you know, 440 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: and once they're cut off from sort of the rest 441 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: of the world from through Hong Kong and for the 442 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: so sorry they don't have what they you know, they're 443 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: they're sort of they sort of scrambling to figure out 444 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: how we do this. And their solution is a greatly forward, 445 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: which is essentially we're we're we're gonna just bust through 446 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: this whole thing, and we're gonna do it by forcing 447 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,719 Speaker 1: everyone to work for like an absolutely enormous like increase 448 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: in hours. Right, Like we're we're gonna we're gonna have 449 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: peasants working in the fields literally until they class some exhaustion. 450 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: And it just doesn't work. It is a it is 451 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: a epocal failure. There are millions of people die from famines, 452 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: and you know, and the sort of the response to 453 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: this is that, like is that China eventually ends up 454 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: like winds up opening its economy again. Yeah and yeah 455 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: and yeah, and like you know, and this is the thing, 456 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: like if if China, which has like just just an 457 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 1: astounding breath of natural resources, can't pull this off, like 458 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: it's probably just not a good idea because it's like, yeah, well, 459 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: I mean we even have like a very you know, 460 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: a very contemporary example that you know, makes they will 461 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: make certainly makes my blood blow, and I'm sure we'll 462 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: make some of the listeners blood boiled. The vaccines, uh, 463 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, the realistically, you know, the the coronavirus is 464 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: fund is a more or less is an incredible threat 465 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: to basically adding every state on the planet at this point, 466 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: and the really really chemical and biomedical research is done 467 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: in just a handful of places on the planet. Uh. 468 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: And there have been attempts to create vaccines outside of 469 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: those places, and they have been somewhat successful, but it 470 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: has been difficult, and most places are just not in 471 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: a position to create a to develop their own competing technology. Uh. 472 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: And even China struggled with creating their own competing vaccination technology. 473 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: And I'm not at all a bio biology expert, I 474 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: understand it's a not quite a sufficient vaccine, the sinovac, 475 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, this is like 476 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: South Africa is not developing their own independent vaccine. That's 477 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: a quite sophisticatedicated economy. All of all the very South 478 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: American countries could have pulled their resources together in theory. 479 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: But it's so hard to turn a dime and develop 480 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: from scratch a primary research industry. Uh, it's so difficult, 481 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: and it's so not worth it. It's you know, if 482 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: you have trade relations with a country that has technology 483 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: developments in a field that you really care about, it's 484 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: just not really worth it. Like we don't the United 485 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: States doesn't really compete with several sort of forms of 486 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 1: Japanese technology because it's just not worth the bother. Uh. 487 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: Just let Korea and Japan handle that for US, and 488 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: we buy it and they accept our our four x 489 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: they accept our dollars. But you know, let's say you're 490 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: the Philippines, Yeah, how are you going to get those? 491 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: And uh, this is this is now international trade and 492 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: international politics. And if we're creating our now independent Vancouver Island, 493 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: we have now entered into this territory. We have now 494 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: entered into international politics and international trade. Yeah. And and 495 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: this this is an arena that's fraud in a lot 496 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: of ways, because it's it's you know, as you've sort 497 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: of been talking about, right, It's it's not just that 498 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: you need it's not thing that you need for X. 499 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: It's like example, like you know, if if you have 500 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: you have your sort of like you know you you 501 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: you you have your new society and like Vancouver right 502 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: Vicker violence, you know you need the thing you need 503 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: mostly is dollars. And this is this is a real 504 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: problem because this requires you to have something that you 505 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: can turn into dollars. And you know, okay, so you're 506 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: you're going to have some amount of dollars that are 507 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: just there right from from when you see society. There's 508 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: there's assets you can sort of just sell off that 509 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: like okay, like do we really need this yacht? Like okay, 510 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: we can, we can we can sell this for some 511 00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: amount of dollars. But this becomes a real like an 512 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: a problem because you need to produce something that you 513 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: can exchange for dollars. And you know, there's there's a 514 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: pretty good chance that like whatever sort of new currency, 515 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: whatever new sort of like MMT currency, that's like oh, 516 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,959 Speaker 1: it's it's controlled it because we're producing it, moves our 517 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: resources around. We can make him bust it as we want. 518 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: Like yeah, you have to actually able to look convert 519 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: that into dollars, and you know why why does the 520 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: U Y is the U S gonna want your currency? Yeah, 521 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: it's a bit dialectical because you have to Okay, you 522 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: have your m M M T currency, which domestically is accepted 523 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: because of text received ability or something uh or or 524 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: national fervor if you will to um create a new 525 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: democratic confederalists society, um, and that's accepted there. But yeah, 526 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: you need us sellars. So like you need us sellars. 527 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: But why do you need them? Partly because like you 528 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: eventually want to not need them? Yeah, and so you 529 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: have of what you can. You have assets right now 530 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: that you can just sell, so that's one way, but 531 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: long term you can't do that. So you need to 532 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: have cash flow over the long haul that allows you 533 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: to buy what are called capital goods, which are is 534 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: a fancy term for machines that make machines or machines 535 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: that make some sort of like in product, which is 536 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: a physical thing. It's not like a service or something. 537 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: And um, you want to classic like really classic economic 538 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: development advice that is actually pretty good is you want 539 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: to move up what's called a value chain and eventually 540 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: be not producing um, just like a stable crop or something, 541 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: but doing really innovative advanced technology things later on. So 542 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: you like, here's where I am, here's what I have, 543 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: Here's what I could have. Though, how do I get there? Um? 544 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: Part of part of the formula to get there is yes, 545 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: acquiring for X, but it's other things like saying, how 546 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: do I cultivate political alliances that will yield trade partners 547 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: such that I have a stable flow of for X 548 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: and uh, maybe even technology transfers, you know, or something 549 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: down the line which could be a game changer. Um, 550 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: you need to have an education system. Like if you're 551 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: a fan of the economist Torstin Veblen, he thought like 552 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: in his mind he thought the economic development was ultimately 553 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: from the human intellect, and like everything was downstream of that. 554 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: So like you need to have money to Um, you 555 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: can use your m M T money to create a 556 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: basic education system, and you can augment it with buying 557 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: importing things that you can't yet make and using it 558 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: to create like a university or something which can do 559 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: R and D work. Um, you have to you have 560 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: to find tools to get enough of the any that 561 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: you can't just infinitely produce for X in order to 562 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: augment what your society can produce beyond what initially could 563 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: and show essentially that you, Okay, I can make a 564 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: better mouse trap, like I I don't need to I 565 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: don't need donations from well meaning imperial powers or something. 566 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: We're building what we need in order to move up 567 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: the value chain and then build out our productive capacity 568 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: in such a way that, um, it doesn't leave anyone behind. 569 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: Everyone is everyone's employed because we're doing the classic M 570 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: M T stuff on the home front, such as a 571 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: job guarantee, but we're also doing the international economic development 572 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: stuff of a situationally monitoring our foreign foreign currency reserves 573 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: and then using them to import things that we cannot 574 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: yet make but can make things internally and then have 575 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: a a snowballing effect as far as being able to 576 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: sell even higher value things which um to our trade 577 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: partners who are hopefully share our values of like democratic 578 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: confederalism or whatever you whatever you're chosen guidelines are. Yeah, 579 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: and this is something that like, this is something that 580 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: that becomes very difficult in like the current market. You know, 581 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: this is this is to some extent like why the 582 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: Cold War went the way it did, right, which is 583 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: that you know, once once you have the zinosovit suplant. 584 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: And once you have like you have Chinese and Russian 585 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: troops killing each other on the border um China, it 586 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: like enters the situation where it's like, well, okay, so 587 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: we still want to do economic development, but we've lost 588 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: the Soviet unions as a telelog as a way to 589 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: get to Dolgar transfers. And their solution to that was 590 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: to ally with the U. S. And this is like 591 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: it works out for the Chinese economy. It is an 592 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: apocal disaster for like literally everyone else on earth because 593 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 1: like it meets that capitalism is the thing that and 594 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: the Cold War and and this means that like you know, 595 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: I mean like if you look if you look at 596 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: how you know, like the things that China are doing 597 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: in order to be able to get technology transfers for 598 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: the US. It's like like there's so there there are 599 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: joints like Chinese CIA like operations inside of China that 600 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: are like monitoring Soviet missile site. So there's just like 601 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: CIA app posts just like in China that are just 602 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, doing spying like for for the U. S. Government. 603 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: There's like they invade Vietnam, which is in and you know, 604 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: and it's such as that the invadea ne noom. It's 605 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: like they have made Vietnam, and then they fight this 606 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: like this really you know, the immediate war does last 607 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: that long, but they fight this like horrible border war 608 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: that goes on for like a decade that kills enormous 609 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: numbers of people, and you know, and the end result 610 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: of this is like, yeah, like you know, trying to 611 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: get the signalogy transfers and they developed economy, but everyone 612 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 1: else on Earth. Yeah, the cost is like everyone who's 613 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: ever tried to be a labor organizer in like uh, 614 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 1: you know, in how Salvador gets murdered by a bunch 615 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: of fascists and very development icon is so fucking frustrating 616 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 1: because every single step of the way, there's like there's 617 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: like a really razor thin line between risk and reward 618 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: at every step of the way. And so like imperial 619 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: powers will dangle technology transfers or extended trade agreements on 620 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: some favorable terms in exchange for allowing them to just 621 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: like go to war with your neighbors, like or rope 622 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: you into it, or or extract resources that would be 623 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: value for you later in your development phases. Yeah, actually, uh, 624 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: this leads to me, Um, you know, going to our 625 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: hypothetical here thinking about Vancouver Island, the People's Republic of 626 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: Vancouver Island, and we can kind of talk about some 627 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: of development traps because that's kind of what I'm was 628 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: turning through my head right now because I'm looking at 629 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: the Wikipedia page for Vancouver Island. Is that incredibly deep research? 630 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: And so would they listen to the economy is there's 631 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: a tech sector, logging, fishing, tourism and food um, And 632 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: so you know we have talked first about like you 633 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: could like sell off like the yachts and the cars 634 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Uh, and that's I don't even 635 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: know if that counts as a sector of the economy 636 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: at that level. That's a yeah, you can start sale. 637 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: But you know, logging and fishing, those are those are 638 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: pretty solid primary sector economies, you know. You know to 639 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: that describe the terminology, you know they've got this. This 640 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: is part of that hierarchy that Steve was talking about 641 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: that you know, the chain of development and a primary 642 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: sector is like a basic extractive element of your economy 643 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: a mine, uh, logging, phishing, food production, you know, basic goods. 644 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: And then you know you talked about a secondary development, 645 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: which is like manufacturing in the territi area, which is 646 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: you know services. Those are kind of your basic Those 647 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: are usually considered like sectors of the economy, but in 648 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: a way they kind of correspond to development, um, and 649 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: they are quirely different amounts of developments. And you know 650 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: the thing about primaries that everybody needs those things, Like 651 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: unless people just stop using wood for construction, which we 652 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: are very far from doing. We still use a lot 653 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: of wood for construction. Uh, your logging industry is going 654 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: to have buyers, um until people stop buying eating fish. 655 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: Your fishing industry is going to have buyers. Yeah, up 656 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: to a really ludicrously bottomless reserve. But you're gonna be 657 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: stopped on that secondary industry until you have capital. Like 658 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: I don't mean just like the sense of having a 659 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: lot of money, but you know, as county the right money, 660 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 1: and well you need capital, production need capital, you need 661 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: the machine, you need, you need nejor factory you see, 662 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: you need your yeah. Uh, and wealthy countries partly in 663 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: in order to maintain their powers, they have they they 664 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: want to be the only seller of capital kids. Yeah, 665 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: and they're gonna be withholding about it like a really 666 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: good example for right now, I like all of the 667 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: inflation stuff going on, like the chip shortage. Yeah, so 668 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: the machines that make the machines that make the chips, 669 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: Holy sh it, those are like those are they only 670 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,479 Speaker 1: make like fifty of those a year? Yeah, and it's 671 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: all two companies, Yeah, you know the thing with the 672 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: thing with the chip shortage. Right. It's also like so 673 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: if you can be like the people who do that, 674 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: that gives you a lot of economic power, Like this 675 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: is this is one of Taiwan's things, right, which is 676 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: that like you know, it's like, okay, so why hasn't 677 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: Taiwan just sort of been bowled over by by China? 678 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: And like, I mean there's a lot of sort of 679 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: geopolitical reasons for them. It's also partly it's just that like, yeah, 680 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: like Taiwan has this enormous chipmaking industry and it's incredibly advanced, 681 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: and you know, it has like you know this this 682 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: is I think and everything that that that's a real 683 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: problem for sort of revelation society doing this is that like, yeah, 684 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: like Taiwan's chip making economy, like it's not like people 685 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: like fall in like vats of chemicals like a lot 686 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: like there's a lot of there's a lot like just 687 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: horrible sort of labor expilctation. And this comes back to 688 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: even you're sort of like like you know, if you're 689 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: talking about your your sort of primary primary sector stuff 690 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: in the economy, which is that like okay, well yeah, 691 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: I mean like oils particular example of this, but like 692 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, same with timber, and same same with fishes, 693 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: like these are extractive industries, and this becomes a real 694 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: problem for a lot of your sort of like newly 695 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: revolutionary developing societies because you get this tension between um 696 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: like and you see this a lot in Latin America's 697 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: like this is there's a huge tension like this Simplivia 698 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: for example, he sees an Ecuador two where like you 699 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: have different factions of do you have different factors of 700 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: the political movements where you have people who are like okay, yeah, 701 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: I'm I'm okay with just like you know, building these 702 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: highways through indigenous land or just like doing massy forestation 703 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: or like dogging doing open pit mining, and those people 704 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: will be like those people will be leftist, right. The 705 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: people are like okay, well we need to do this 706 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: because we need to like you know, this is an 707 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: anti poverty measure. We have to be on the value chain, 708 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: we have to crease the production. But then you know, 709 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: you have the indigenous people who's like homes these are right, 710 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: yeah yeah, and you can rationalize the intellectual backing. Yeah, 711 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: and like and this this happens like in in China too. 712 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: There's like like a lot of the interstlation has been 713 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: absolutely devastating, like and and and this this becomes a 714 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: real like the fact that you need for REX becomes 715 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: this like incredible trap that that you you sink into 716 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: because it's like, on the one hand, like, yeah, like 717 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: there are resources that you need in order to have 718 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: a function anxiety, but it's also that that you can't 719 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: get in your territory. But also like the cost of 720 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: getting that for X is enormous and and a lot 721 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: of times it's it's it's it's a it's something that 722 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 1: just simply destroys the revolutionary project. But it hit me 723 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:53,399 Speaker 1: when I looked at this list of Vancouver's economic sectors, was, uh, 724 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: you know, tourism being listed among the big ones. In 725 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: my mind immediately into Cuba two pre revolutionary pre castro 726 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: Cuba and pcast Cuba has all these things going for 727 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: it off when you're when you're looking at from like 728 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: a developmental standpoint, you know, it's got this like very 729 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: good productive base of primary resources like sugar. Uh. It 730 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 1: has great relations with the United States of America, particularly 731 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: through the mafia. Uh. Yeah, wonderful, right, it has, Uh, 732 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: the tourism industry is very successful. It's producing manufactured cigar, 733 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: so it even has a secondary industry bridge, but is 734 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: still absolutely failing to develop in a way that is 735 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: meaningful for the people living in Cuba. You know, pre 736 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: Castro Cuba was a nightmare for most people. Uh. And 737 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: that's that That's like Steve said, you know, there's this 738 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: razor thin thing between risk and reward. And during that, 739 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, during the fourties and fifties in Cuba, it 740 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: was just it just made so much sense to just 741 00:42:55,239 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: stick with this impoverished, extractive tourist have the mafia friendly economy. 742 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, they were friends with the US. They could 743 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: have gone technology transfers in principle, but were they actually 744 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: going to Uh And that's something we have to think 745 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: about with our our people's Republic of Vancouver Island is 746 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like people are going to want our logs, 747 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: people are gonna want our fishing. American tourists are going 748 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: to come here and go whale watching, and that's going 749 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:23,839 Speaker 1: to bring in forex. But are we gonna be able 750 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: to like leverage that and how leverage? Yeah? Yeah, And 751 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: I kind of want to move the conversation to like 752 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: I think people might be listening and saying like, Okay, yeah, 753 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: I can see why far actually be important, but like, 754 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: what are the specific ways in which we can acquire 755 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,240 Speaker 1: it but also manage it? And it's like, okay, well 756 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: without which we want you can tell being socialists who 757 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 1: want democracy? Um? Okay, So I think if we're I'm 758 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,959 Speaker 1: I'm picturing some sort of assembly structure taking shape because 759 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: I'm a lipsock libertarian socialist. Um and uh it could 760 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: be something else, but any case, Uh, I think they 761 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: should appoint fifty or so people, some of them experts, 762 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: some of them not too examine. They should do a 763 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: thorough economic analysis of the entire island. And you should 764 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: do it on the basis of here are the assets 765 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 1: we have, Here's where we want to go in terms 766 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: of assets, how do we get from here to there? 767 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: And one of the assets that you have is okay, 768 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: we have so many U S dollars, we have so 769 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: many Canadian dollars, we have reserve balances, so we need 770 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: to import things. We can make some of it ourselves. 771 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: We need to buy the rest of it. We can't 772 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: buy all of it now. We need to cash flow 773 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: some of this. We need to We need to do 774 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,919 Speaker 1: export led growth as the developed the classic development eco 775 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: and people would say where we say, we have some 776 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: industries where we can gradually and consistently ramp up to 777 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: the point that they give They give us the types 778 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: of money which we need in order to input capital 779 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:18,839 Speaker 1: goods the machines that build machines two, buy them, learn 780 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: how to use them, and maintain them, and then build 781 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,760 Speaker 1: more ourselves. Ideally and over the course of say, basically, 782 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: I'm basically suggesting that Vancouver Island should have a ten 783 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: year plan. They should have a ten year plan for 784 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,760 Speaker 1: further economic development, and it should be as democratically decided 785 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,359 Speaker 1: upon as possible within the limits of like, Okay, there's 786 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: some experts which will obviously be needed, and not everyone 787 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: can do that. But um, whatever assembly structure you have 788 00:45:54,040 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: should be given oversight ultimately and you should say, um, 789 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,399 Speaker 1: just be really frank with it, Like we have these 790 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: are biophysical resources now in ten years, they should be 791 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,320 Speaker 1: this in order to get there. Each year, these things 792 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: need to happen. We have to have this much foreign currency, 793 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,279 Speaker 1: we have to have this many workers involved in this industry. Um. 794 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: We can change things along the way, but we're constrained 795 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 1: by these factors where like we need trade partners, we 796 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: need uh two reverse engineers, some technology that we've acquired 797 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: or something in order to to educate ourselves on how 798 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: to create chips or something in the future. UM. Yeah, 799 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: there's like there should be like an extremely vigorous discussion 800 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: of what assets do we have, what do we need, 801 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: what's our goal and then thread together a development plan 802 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,320 Speaker 1: from there, and then use your m M T money 803 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: to martial the resources that you currently have and that 804 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 1: you need for like the next year, say domestically, while 805 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: monitoring and augmenting your foreign currency reserves and um using 806 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,919 Speaker 1: the tools of monetary policy to safeguard those reserves and 807 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: economize on them in order to import what you can't 808 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: yet make so that you can make it in the future. 809 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: I think the thing that we should learn from the 810 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 1: fact that like a lot of these projects haven't worked. 811 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: Is well, I think it's twofold. One is that you 812 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: have okay, there there there's constant sort of like there's 813 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 1: traps you have to avoid that have to do with like, 814 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,840 Speaker 1: for example, like who actually has access to the forex 815 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: because this is what this is a way that like 816 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, and also like because it's it's very very 817 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: easy to like access to sort of like incidentally redeveloped 818 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,400 Speaker 1: ruling classes when you're trying to do planning technology stuff 819 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 1: and when you're trying when you're dealing with enormous amounts 820 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: of foreign currency, and this is a problem and you know, 821 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,359 Speaker 1: and in the second problem has to do with sort 822 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: of like how how how do you make sure that 823 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 1: your economy essentially doesn't end up as a resource colony. 824 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 1: And this has this has other components and you know, 825 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: and I think I think this is something that like 826 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: like there is a lot that can be done if 827 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: you control like a regid of territory, but there's there's 828 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: a political limits on it. And the political limits have 829 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: to do with you know, who actually controls the sort 830 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: of like vast majority of resources and technology, And the 831 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,960 Speaker 1: only way to really deal with that is that like, 832 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: you know, you can't you can't sort of have like 833 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: you if if if you want to actually have sort 834 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: of long term stability, you can't just have your sort 835 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: of like your your like libertary and social counsels in 836 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: one country. I guess it's a it's a thing that 837 00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 1: has to like keep moving and keep spreading because otherwise 838 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: it becomes it becomes just increasingly difficult, and you come 839 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: under increasing pressures, you know, for you know, in order 840 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: to do things that you be that you need to 841 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: do in order to make sure people don't starve, in 842 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 1: order to make sure that people have educations, to make 843 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 1: sure that people you know, are able to sort of 844 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: live with realizes, and also like in order to make 845 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: sure that you don't just annihilate the annihilate the entire 846 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,279 Speaker 1: environment doing this, because that's something that happens a lot 847 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: when in these developmental estates is that like, you know, 848 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: you get you you you you, You get groups who 849 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: are like come in the power and they're like, well, okay, 850 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:31,839 Speaker 1: we're like we're gonna be an ecolectical regime, and then 851 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:33,799 Speaker 1: you know, they wind up having to they wind up 852 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: doing oil extraction and like well prepit mining, because that's 853 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, that that's the easiest way to to to 854 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: get money. And I think I think, like I I 855 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 1: think it's it's valuable that like these are things that 856 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,440 Speaker 1: if you're serious about taking power, you have to think about. 857 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 1: But I also think it's it's important to keep in 858 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:03,400 Speaker 1: mind just the it the inherent limits that you have 859 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: if you're just sort of if you're if you're completely isolated, 860 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,879 Speaker 1: like if you're completely isolated Refley straight movement in one place, 861 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't have people where that you can you know, 862 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: give stuff to and move stuff around between. Yeah, I mean, 863 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: it's it's it's always been kind. I mean that's that's 864 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: been like a kind of inevitable thing that like, you know, 865 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 1: there are there are communes in my extended family. You know, 866 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 1: I've got members of my family who live on you know, 867 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:36,879 Speaker 1: those little farm communes and they're not fully economically independent. Um. 868 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,799 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that we could find people who would 869 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 1: be willing to say, oh, you know, this is like 870 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 1: this is totally fake. This is not a real commune 871 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,440 Speaker 1: because they you know sell uh, you know, sell sunflower 872 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:53,880 Speaker 1: seeds at the farmers market and stuff. Uh, And that's 873 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,359 Speaker 1: kind of the unfortunate. That's kind of like the tough 874 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: reality that unless you managed to create a truly global revolution, 875 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,839 Speaker 1: as I said, unlet's until you've got like two thirds 876 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: of the population under your umbrella. Uh, you're going to 877 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,200 Speaker 1: have foreign relations and you're going to have foreign trade, 878 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,680 Speaker 1: which is going to uh, it's going to be it's 879 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 1: going to be difficult to manage. You know, you're going 880 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: to have to be both. You're going to have to 881 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 1: have like a you know, a diplomatic core. That's something 882 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: we're barely mentioning here, but like we're gonna need to 883 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: have diplomats coming out of this council if we're talking 884 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,800 Speaker 1: about them having relations with the US and Canada. Uh, 885 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,919 Speaker 1: and you're negotiating these trade deals. You know, these trade 886 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: deals don't happen out of nowhere. Um. And you know, 887 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:42,960 Speaker 1: we kind of brushed this aside. But it's a it's 888 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,920 Speaker 1: a bit of it's a bit of a misperception that 889 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,759 Speaker 1: people tend to have that the United States is pro 890 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,879 Speaker 1: free trade in like an extreme sense that like any 891 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,280 Speaker 1: trade of the United States is done without any tariffs. 892 00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 1: Oh No, I don't think that. You if you believe 893 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: that without having done a lot of research. I do 894 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: not think that that is an absurd thing to believe, 895 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:11,279 Speaker 1: because that is the propaganda that is passed along in 896 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:16,920 Speaker 1: common knowledge. A very quick examination of how trade works 897 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 1: between international actors will reveal that there are thousands and 898 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of tariffs active all the time in 899 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,919 Speaker 1: every trade deal. Yeah, and like that, like the big 900 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,880 Speaker 1: one with the US agricultural subsidies, which are just it 901 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 1: is it is it is illegal to have them. We 902 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 1: have like just in just like billions and billions of 903 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: billions of dollars agricultural subsidies that have producing cheap food. 904 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,560 Speaker 1: That's like we're not even good at making it. Like 905 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: it's it's a complete disaster. It let mean this like this, 906 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 1: this is just single handedly annihilated the economies of like 907 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 1: enormous swass of the globe because because no one can 908 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,319 Speaker 1: compete with with American agri culture subsidies. And it's you know, 909 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: and and but like when when you join the free 910 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 1: trade system, like that's one of the carve outs that 911 00:52:58,239 --> 00:52:59,840 Speaker 1: was that's that's that's in the w t O is 912 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,360 Speaker 1: you can't have subsidies for for your culture programs except 913 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,719 Speaker 1: for the US and it's and it's great and I 914 00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: mean everyone dies. Well, there's all sorts of like weird 915 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,359 Speaker 1: technical ways that you can create pseudo subsidies, you know. Uh. 916 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,640 Speaker 1: You know, Italy very famously has a price floor on wine. Uh. 917 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,960 Speaker 1: And this means that you know, if you if you 918 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,319 Speaker 1: make a bottle of wine that nobody would buy for 919 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 1: the minimum price, the government will buy it off of 920 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,840 Speaker 1: you for that price. And so they're there are wineries 921 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: in Italy that just produced wine at such a this 922 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,279 Speaker 1: so bad nobody would buy nobody. You would have to 923 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,200 Speaker 1: pay people to drink it, but the government just buys 924 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: it at this minimum set price and then throws it 925 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 1: enough in a giant Olympic swimming pool that uh to 926 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,399 Speaker 1: go rot. Uh And like there are yeah, there there there. 927 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,760 Speaker 1: The trade is, you know, there's a lot more complex. 928 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: The free trade is kind of a math at the 929 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:59,719 Speaker 1: international level. Uh. It is at it's at the most cynical. 930 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,399 Speaker 1: Trade as a doctrine is a cudgel used by more 931 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: powerful countries that they impose that you have to do 932 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,520 Speaker 1: free trade with them and that they get to do 933 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 1: protract and trade with you. Well, it's a it's well, firstly, 934 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,359 Speaker 1: like you mentioned it's a myth. And historically speaking, we 935 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 1: had like, we had infant industries in this country that 936 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:25,640 Speaker 1: we're highly protected from the very earliest days through most 937 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,799 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century and into this one century, and 938 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,360 Speaker 1: we had, uh, we had expert led growth from infant 939 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:38,160 Speaker 1: lead for infant industries in the US. And that's precisely 940 00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,399 Speaker 1: the opposite advice we now turn around and give via 941 00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 1: our imperial like apparatus from the I m F and 942 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,120 Speaker 1: the World Bank to developing counts and like countries, countries 943 00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,080 Speaker 1: that that examined what the US was telling them to 944 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 1: do and did the opposite. Are the ones that succeeded. Yes, 945 00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,200 Speaker 1: Like South Korea said no, funk that, and they're they 946 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 1: went up the value chain and they did all of 947 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,560 Speaker 1: the things that we said Vancouver Island should do basically, Yeah, 948 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,880 Speaker 1: except not being evil. They did not do that. They 949 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,759 Speaker 1: were evil. They were evil for a time, and they 950 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,319 Speaker 1: were dictatorial, but in terms of their economic development plan 951 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,120 Speaker 1: divorced from political reality, which is probably naive of me 952 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,920 Speaker 1: to say, um, they took the opposite advice of the 953 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,239 Speaker 1: I m F in terms of that narrow scope. Well, yeah, 954 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,560 Speaker 1: I think the other thing that's kind of important here 955 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,080 Speaker 1: that haven't really touched on yet, is it. Like so 956 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:31,640 Speaker 1: part part of part of what was going on with 957 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 1: with South Korea's economy is that South Korea's economy was 958 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,880 Speaker 1: was a war economy, and it was a war economy 959 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,680 Speaker 1: designed to build I mean, originally just it was it 960 00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,000 Speaker 1: was war economy because they were fighting a war, right, 961 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 1: but then it became this, I mean it was central 962 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,160 Speaker 1: access of sort of the coruction of the Korean War, 963 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,880 Speaker 1: and that it became this access that like it became 964 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,320 Speaker 1: a huge part of the American sort of arms industry 965 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,560 Speaker 1: in in Vietnam. And this is the sending that Japan 966 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 1: has this to where both these economies are like a 967 00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:57,960 Speaker 1: huge part of the reason why they're able to develop 968 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 1: is because they get enormous amounts of just money and 969 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,040 Speaker 1: that guaranteed contents and stuff like that from American military development. 970 00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,719 Speaker 1: And this is a this is another really big problem 971 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,319 Speaker 1: for like your sort of free state that like you've 972 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,560 Speaker 1: created like whatever, you're sort of like council republic. You're 973 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 1: like if on the zone you're like indigenous confederation. Is 974 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:21,799 Speaker 1: that like you need weapons and the people who make 975 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:26,799 Speaker 1: guns are like the US and Russia. And this is 976 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:28,520 Speaker 1: a really you know, and and you know, we've we've 977 00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,239 Speaker 1: been talking on this show about about producing like three 978 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,799 Speaker 1: D point weapons, but I mean, you know, in terms 979 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: of things like you know, you're like artillery, right, like 980 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:40,600 Speaker 1: you ark of your mortars and like things like that, 981 00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,440 Speaker 1: were like, you know, you you can't. You can't three 982 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,520 Speaker 1: D prints to best of my knowledge, And I'm like 983 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,080 Speaker 1: pcent sure about this that like unless you had extremely 984 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,680 Speaker 1: advanced facilities, and even then it's not clear. Like I 985 00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,359 Speaker 1: I like, I don't think anyone on Earth has ever 986 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,080 Speaker 1: pred three D printed like an anti aircraft rocket, like 987 00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: you can you can you know, you can't make you 988 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:00,880 Speaker 1: can't make stingers. You can make manpad, you can't make 989 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 1: like anti tank anti aircraft weapons today. Not to get 990 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,000 Speaker 1: too much into it, but like the way in which 991 00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,920 Speaker 1: Ukraine is fighting like Russian tanks and it's very specifics 992 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,759 Speaker 1: is kind of encouraging. Actually, yeah, but like you like 993 00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,440 Speaker 1: the like specific yeah, I mean there's only a few 994 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,800 Speaker 1: companies for making the components for these things. Yeah, so 995 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,800 Speaker 1: it's a problem. And that's that's like the personnel launched 996 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: the in law or whatever things. Yeah, like the anti 997 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,040 Speaker 1: tanking an TAKERFF weapons, like if you can get them. 998 00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,040 Speaker 1: They're effective and they do they do stuff like that 999 00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 1: from by the US or the UK. Yeah, yeah, and 1000 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,000 Speaker 1: that's that's that's a huge problem if you're you know, 1001 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,440 Speaker 1: not trying to like be a political colony of these 1002 00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:44,600 Speaker 1: two things. And this this is another trap that you 1003 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,720 Speaker 1: see like you see cats especially falling into, which is 1004 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,240 Speaker 1: that that they you know, okay, so like on the 1005 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,520 Speaker 1: one hand, yeah, you do need weapons, right, like you 1006 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,840 Speaker 1: you need you need some kind of military complex and 1007 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,880 Speaker 1: you need arms or to make sure that like you know, 1008 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,440 Speaker 1: you're not like the US doesn't rull tanks across the border. 1009 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,080 Speaker 1: But simultaneously, like there's there's a thing that happens a 1010 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 1: lot with this is having charticularly with Petro states, where 1011 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, okay, so the the the the US is like, okay, 1012 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,840 Speaker 1: so we need this oil, right, and how how do 1013 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,040 Speaker 1: you how do you deal with the sort of balance 1014 00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:15,840 Speaker 1: paymous emphasis And the answer is we just sell them 1015 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 1: like a hundred billion tanks and we just like we 1016 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,040 Speaker 1: just like dump f thirty fives on them. And you 1017 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,360 Speaker 1: can get into these scenarios where like you get these 1018 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,240 Speaker 1: like because I mean the problem with weapons rights, like okay, 1019 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 1: so you need them to survive, but they also they 1020 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,040 Speaker 1: don't produce anything right, in fact that they're sort of 1021 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: they're sort of net economic negatives because the only thing 1022 00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:33,880 Speaker 1: you could do with a gun is I mean, I 1023 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,200 Speaker 1: guess you can techinically hunt, but like you know, the 1024 00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,280 Speaker 1: thing you're doing with the weapon is destroying value. Yeah yeah. 1025 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,000 Speaker 1: And I mean and then they were prying maintenance. Yeah yeah, 1026 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,880 Speaker 1: Like these things are substantial net negatives. Yeah, and and 1027 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,240 Speaker 1: and you know, and and countries get sucked into these traps. 1028 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,280 Speaker 1: Were like you know, okay, we're just gonna keep buying 1029 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,560 Speaker 1: American weapons because of security or like uh we we 1030 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,960 Speaker 1: we want to invade some other country. You're like, well, 1031 00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, and you see this so hey weapons reto 1032 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: like back back when that was the thing, and today 1033 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,880 Speaker 1: modern Russian rap whenever you where it's like you can 1034 00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,080 Speaker 1: you can get funneled into these traps. Were like the 1035 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,600 Speaker 1: ruling class of your society just decides that it's the 1036 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,000 Speaker 1: thing that it wants to spend his four X on 1037 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,040 Speaker 1: his weapons, and you have to be very very like 1038 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:14,520 Speaker 1: you have to be you know, and this is the 1039 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:19,400 Speaker 1: thing that happens, like like Evner Hoax, for example, famously 1040 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 1: like makes just a bunch of bunkers, right, and like 1041 00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,800 Speaker 1: militarized society and it's like, well, you know, part of 1042 00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: this just hoax being extremely weird, but like, yeah, you 1043 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,640 Speaker 1: have to be very careful when your society that is 1044 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,720 Speaker 1: genuinely under threat that you're not sort of like just 1045 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,920 Speaker 1: throwing all of your resources into into stuff like that 1046 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,560 Speaker 1: where you know, he doesn't it doesn't prove us anything, 1047 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,320 Speaker 1: but you know, and yeah, also I mean this is 1048 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 1: it is a need like like whatever the Vancouver Economic 1049 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:57,160 Speaker 1: Planning whatever group should like one of one of the 1050 00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:01,840 Speaker 1: objectives would frank would be military of course, Yeah, um 1051 01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,120 Speaker 1: you need to. I don't know if you could get 1052 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,400 Speaker 1: your hands on in laws or man pads or anything 1053 01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:10,480 Speaker 1: like that, but you, um, I think you would be 1054 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:15,360 Speaker 1: foolish frankly not too distribute and train on weapons and 1055 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,360 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And for that. Yeah, yeah, like I 1056 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:20,560 Speaker 1: think I think, like, yeah, it's like you have to 1057 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,160 Speaker 1: use some of it for that. And it sucks because 1058 01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: this is something that like this, this sucks you into 1059 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:30,200 Speaker 1: the arms complex, right, Yeah. Rose is using its oil 1060 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:38,040 Speaker 1: revenues um to fund like it's expenditure almost is at 1061 01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:41,000 Speaker 1: least like in or the last time I checked was 1062 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:46,240 Speaker 1: to defense forces. Yeah, and like and a lot of 1063 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of that came from dollars, Euros and 1064 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,720 Speaker 1: turkishly right that they required to oil. Yeah, and like 1065 01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 1: this and this is the thing that like, yeah, this, 1066 01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:58,480 Speaker 1: this is this is a problem if you're into your 1067 01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,240 Speaker 1: revolution society surrounding people just literally want to murder you, 1068 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:03,520 Speaker 1: or it's like stuff like this winds up happening and 1069 01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 1: you wind up like I don't blame them. Yeah, it's 1070 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:12,520 Speaker 1: like reality. Yeah, and I think that's a you know 1071 01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,120 Speaker 1: that that that's a good example of like what happens 1072 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,560 Speaker 1: if the revolution doesn't spread and if you get sort 1073 01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:19,880 Speaker 1: of like if you get isolated, contained by imperial powers 1074 01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,120 Speaker 1: who just want to murder to you, is that you 1075 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:27,360 Speaker 1: wind up like you basically you want you wind up 1076 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,560 Speaker 1: fighting an endless war against both the proxy forces and 1077 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:32,880 Speaker 1: the real forces of RBS that are significantly large and 1078 01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,400 Speaker 1: more powerful than you. And yeah, and there's a lot 1079 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:37,760 Speaker 1: of times there's not much you can do about it. 1080 01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,560 Speaker 1: But it's like I think, you know, in terms of 1081 01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,440 Speaker 1: like like in the school of high principle, like this 1082 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,360 Speaker 1: is why internationalism is important. I mean, yeah, of course, 1083 01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,800 Speaker 1: obviously the other answer is, you know, selling out on 1084 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,960 Speaker 1: the revolution and you know, we we we You know 1085 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,560 Speaker 1: that there's the example that people didn't think about of Surritza. 1086 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,440 Speaker 1: You know, Sisa gets elected on all these like radical 1087 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,680 Speaker 1: promises for Greece and then just doesn't do any of them. Um. 1088 01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,720 Speaker 1: And you can look at say Nepal and you know, 1089 01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,120 Speaker 1: the communist one in Nepal and then they establish a 1090 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:11,680 Speaker 1: government that's functionally you know, it's a liberal government. My my, my, my, 1091 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,120 Speaker 1: My favorite Nepal fact is that. Okay, so that Nepole 1092 01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,960 Speaker 1: has like seventeen different like Maoist factions, but the guy 1093 01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:22,280 Speaker 1: ahead of the of the largest Maoist faction, uh yeah, 1094 01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:24,600 Speaker 1: I think it's him. Is he's the one who now 1095 01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: lives in the mansion of the guy who used to 1096 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:31,720 Speaker 1: be the Nepalese head of security. And it's like, uh, 1097 01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,320 Speaker 1: we've well this is this, this has gone great. We've 1098 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:40,040 Speaker 1: we've changed the person in the mansion kind of yeah, 1099 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:44,000 Speaker 1: and I mean the and you know, uh, not too surprisingly, 1100 01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,960 Speaker 1: you know, the second leader. A couple about a year ago, 1101 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,680 Speaker 1: Karen was on the verge of declaring a new people's 1102 01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:55,840 Speaker 1: war against the Maoist faction. Yeah, Malist war against the Maoics. Like, yeah, 1103 01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, you you you end up. 1104 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:04,360 Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's it's it's tricky to try to like 1105 01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,640 Speaker 1: game it out, so to speak, because you know, by 1106 01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 1: I maybe I'm just squeamish. I am hoping for things 1107 01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,520 Speaker 1: to not happen with the river of blood. Yeah. In life, 1108 01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:19,800 Speaker 1: I hope that, uh, I hope that we don't get 1109 01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,760 Speaker 1: rivers of blood. Um oh, plan plan for war so 1110 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,400 Speaker 1: you get you get peace. Yeah. Yeah, but you like, 1111 01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:28,720 Speaker 1: like like Chris has said, you know, you can get 1112 01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,040 Speaker 1: trapped into like that that escalating security dilemma. Huh. And 1113 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,480 Speaker 1: of course, you know, investing in security doesn't actually necessarily 1114 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:36,680 Speaker 1: to security. We have you know, over a century of 1115 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,400 Speaker 1: looking at Latin American countries that investments in the military 1116 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,520 Speaker 1: is just investments in the next civil war. Yeah, or 1117 01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,680 Speaker 1: you get cooed and then that that's that's another problem. Like, 1118 01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:48,800 Speaker 1: like I mean, it's weird because it's like it's a 1119 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,320 Speaker 1: double edged story because like the twenty century, like there's 1120 01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,600 Speaker 1: all there's a lot of like socialistic governments that come 1121 01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,800 Speaker 1: into power just from military coups, but also like probably 1122 01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,080 Speaker 1: more of those governments like get overthrown by their own coups, 1123 01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,840 Speaker 1: and it's yeah, there was. There was one lesson I 1124 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:10,240 Speaker 1: learned from playing Tropico. It's good if you've tried to 1125 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,600 Speaker 1: invest more in your No matter how much you invest 1126 01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,040 Speaker 1: in your military, it only will ever get you up 1127 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:21,320 Speaker 1: of surviving a coup. Yeah. Don't have colonels and don't 1128 01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:28,680 Speaker 1: have generals. Yeah, then you get captain's cups. It's as colonels. Yeah, 1129 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,200 Speaker 1: there's always colonels. It's because they're like past up for 1130 01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:35,400 Speaker 1: general ship by the next administration or something. Yeah. Again again, 1131 01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,280 Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes you do get like such as you get 1132 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,280 Speaker 1: like your pinochet, and so sometimes you do get your 1133 01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,439 Speaker 1: captains cups, and it's like this is a that goes 1134 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:48,360 Speaker 1: that's ambition right there when the kind happens the government. Yeah, well, 1135 01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:53,120 Speaker 1: once your captains of hit fucket mode, its bad. Yeah, 1136 01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,320 Speaker 1: that's indicative of like bigger, deeper problems. Yeah. Well, I 1137 01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,320 Speaker 1: think like the Baths are an interesting example of this 1138 01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,600 Speaker 1: because like, okay, like the Bathtist we're never like good, 1139 01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:05,280 Speaker 1: but like you know, the Baptists, like originally like we're 1140 01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:09,320 Speaker 1: kind of a mass movement, but then increasingly like over time, 1141 01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,600 Speaker 1: as as they consult their power to the military sort 1142 01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:15,160 Speaker 1: of revolutions, like it becomes increasingly just the Baptists are 1143 01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,560 Speaker 1: powerful because they have control of like various portions of 1144 01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,040 Speaker 1: the military, and you know, and like the the the 1145 01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,040 Speaker 1: end result of this is like, instead of having revolutions 1146 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,439 Speaker 1: like you just get you just get all political power 1147 01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,240 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with whatever is happening in the street, 1148 01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:28,880 Speaker 1: You get these giant protests that are like, we want 1149 01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:30,240 Speaker 1: to go back to being part of the United the 1150 01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:34,000 Speaker 1: the United Republic, and it just doesn't matter because the 1151 01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,560 Speaker 1: actual political power is just what happens when the army 1152 01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:42,919 Speaker 1: fights itself. And yeah, I think like there's no easy 1153 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,480 Speaker 1: solution to that other than just like don't have an 1154 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,640 Speaker 1: armed body that's separate from just the masses of people, 1155 01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:53,440 Speaker 1: which is difficult to do, but also like just arm 1156 01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:57,560 Speaker 1: the people somewhat. Yeah, and and you know, it's means 1157 01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:01,840 Speaker 1: of violence should be more evenly distributed. Yeah, I will 1158 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,040 Speaker 1: say that was I guess part of why the scenario 1159 01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,520 Speaker 1: we had started off with, like you've declared the people's Republic, 1160 01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,360 Speaker 1: because the question of how you get that people's republic 1161 01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:13,560 Speaker 1: feels like that's of your podcast podcast episodes. Yeah, yeah, 1162 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, we've done, we've done, we've done, just like 1163 01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,240 Speaker 1: a miracle has occurred, but like a revolution has occurred, 1164 01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,840 Speaker 1: and then I don't know, they like or something like 1165 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:25,040 Speaker 1: as I like to say, it's good to have a 1166 01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,160 Speaker 1: plan for if you win. Yeah, and I think it's 1167 01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,720 Speaker 1: like to win and then fumble once you've already gotten yeah, 1168 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,640 Speaker 1: and this this, this is something that like that actually 1169 01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,680 Speaker 1: does happen a lot, which is like you get into that, 1170 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:42,320 Speaker 1: you get into these revolutionary like moments, but then there's 1171 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,680 Speaker 1: just sort of like no like no one has any 1172 01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:47,360 Speaker 1: idea what to do next, and so they sort of 1173 01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,280 Speaker 1: bungle it, or you know, you get into scenarios, yeah, 1174 01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,280 Speaker 1: or you get too relolution scenarios where like nobody's thought 1175 01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,200 Speaker 1: about what happens next, and that that's that's another way 1176 01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:57,760 Speaker 1: that like, yeah, these things class at the time, and 1177 01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:59,920 Speaker 1: that's another way you get like, you know, in the 1178 01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,280 Speaker 1: this this isn't something like the whole of the sort 1179 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,680 Speaker 1: of like the trial and error of the point of 1180 01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:06,640 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, which most of which is sort of 1181 01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,280 Speaker 1: ended in error. Is that you know, a bunch of 1182 01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,000 Speaker 1: people were experimenting and a lot of stuff they tried 1183 01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,200 Speaker 1: didn't work, and there are lots of reasons for that, 1184 01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,720 Speaker 1: but you like you have to in order to win, 1185 01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,200 Speaker 1: you have to actually be serious about taking power, and 1186 01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,600 Speaker 1: you have to be you know, you have to be 1187 01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:26,200 Speaker 1: thinking strategically and have a like, have at least a 1188 01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:28,840 Speaker 1: vision of what you're going to do before you like 1189 01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,680 Speaker 1: you know, like before things happen, because otherwise there's just 1190 01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:34,480 Speaker 1: sort of like you know, because you just you just 1191 01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,440 Speaker 1: get sort of mass confusion and yeah, and say what 1192 01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 1: say what you all about the fascists they know what 1193 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,760 Speaker 1: they're gonna do when they see its power. They're not 1194 01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:45,919 Speaker 1: confused about it. There. Their problems are what you do after. Yeah, 1195 01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,320 Speaker 1: they're not confused about that was first like hours when 1196 01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,120 Speaker 1: things start out the way. I hope that nothing we've said. 1197 01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,080 Speaker 1: I hope that nothing we've said on this podcast kind 1198 01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,280 Speaker 1: of makes people think like, oh they so they have 1199 01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,960 Speaker 1: like one weird trick basically to like secure secure power 1200 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,920 Speaker 1: like obviously um and like and that, and that we 1201 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,080 Speaker 1: aren't like singularly focused on acquiring for X or something. 1202 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:14,000 Speaker 1: It's just like it's an important lever too to have 1203 01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:16,800 Speaker 1: at your disposal, and like, well, number one you should 1204 01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,360 Speaker 1: know that it's important. Number Two you should have tools 1205 01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:24,479 Speaker 1: in place, such as like running a running a fixed 1206 01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,120 Speaker 1: extra fixed exchange rate or something to make it a 1207 01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,680 Speaker 1: bit easier to acquire for X on the whole, or 1208 01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,840 Speaker 1: um doing capital controls or doing price controls or something 1209 01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,960 Speaker 1: like that. And you should have these tools in mind 1210 01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:40,120 Speaker 1: in order to get from year one to year ten 1211 01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:44,000 Speaker 1: in terms of your biophysical resources, like here's what we have, 1212 01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:47,240 Speaker 1: here's what we need. And you know, some of that 1213 01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:50,000 Speaker 1: could be military, some of that could be economic, and 1214 01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:53,920 Speaker 1: some of that could be political. And um, no, one 1215 01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:57,679 Speaker 1: like I don't know the answers. We don't know the answers, 1216 01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:01,680 Speaker 1: but um, are you ship of the way you need 1217 01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:03,960 Speaker 1: to find groups of people who can come together and 1218 01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:10,439 Speaker 1: think objectively about them? Yeah, I want. Yeah, it's not 1219 01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,960 Speaker 1: that I think that there is an answer. I'm kind 1220 01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,280 Speaker 1: of thinking about almost a little bit parallel to like, 1221 01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:19,800 Speaker 1: we know that if we create our you know, if 1222 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,200 Speaker 1: if socialists matched to sees any amount of power, they're 1223 01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:27,160 Speaker 1: going to reform whatever health care system they're currently existing in. Uh, 1224 01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,040 Speaker 1: we know this is going to be better, because it 1225 01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:33,240 Speaker 1: would be hard for it to be worse. Uh, but 1226 01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:38,080 Speaker 1: you know that's making a good hospital system is not 1227 01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:41,320 Speaker 1: the entire thing that makes a revolution happen. It is 1228 01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:42,840 Speaker 1: just one of those things that you need to do 1229 01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:48,080 Speaker 1: and you need to think about it. And my objective here, 1230 01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,640 Speaker 1: and it's a lot of my objective with you know, 1231 01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:56,800 Speaker 1: making this whole magazine project, is that my socialism means 1232 01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:58,519 Speaker 1: that we all we have to say over our lives. 1233 01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,439 Speaker 1: You know, that's fundamental to me, that we have say 1234 01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:04,800 Speaker 1: over what we do with our lives. And I want 1235 01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,080 Speaker 1: to make sure that the people who are in this 1236 01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:10,559 Speaker 1: with me, which is hopefully everybody. I am an optimist. 1237 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,000 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that everybody is with me on creating a 1238 01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:16,280 Speaker 1: better socialist world, that all of us are at least 1239 01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,719 Speaker 1: somewhat informed about the decisions we're making. I'm not actually 1240 01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:22,559 Speaker 1: economically trained, you know, I'm I I've learned this stuff 1241 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:28,639 Speaker 1: as I've gone. It's not insurmountable. Uh and uh, it's 1242 01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, I would want the decision about how do 1243 01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:33,920 Speaker 1: we make a socialist economy? You know that the core 1244 01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,680 Speaker 1: of socialism worker control of the means of production that 1245 01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:42,160 Speaker 1: the people involved. Again, hopefully everybody h has you know, 1246 01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,479 Speaker 1: at least has an inkling of what's going on. I 1247 01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:48,760 Speaker 1: don't want people to be confused and baffled by the 1248 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:51,439 Speaker 1: decisions being made on their behalf. That's, you know, a 1249 01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,479 Speaker 1: fundamental evil of a capitalist system. We don't know what 1250 01:10:55,600 --> 01:11:00,479 Speaker 1: the funk decisions are being made for us by powerful people. Well, 1251 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,160 Speaker 1: part of the part of the problem comes back to education, 1252 01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:07,559 Speaker 1: because like people are, um, the bourgeoisie have hogged, they've 1253 01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:12,559 Speaker 1: herded the knowledge of how to plan in certain respects, 1254 01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,680 Speaker 1: and I think socialists socialists will sometimes look at the 1255 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:21,120 Speaker 1: body of knowledge in terms of planning an economy and say, like, well, 1256 01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,160 Speaker 1: because they are the only ones who know how to 1257 01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:27,920 Speaker 1: do that, the knowledge itself is tainted, and like, I 1258 01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,840 Speaker 1: don't need to learn this because it's evil. Basically, I 1259 01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:33,840 Speaker 1: don't need to learn how to manage a currency board 1260 01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:41,320 Speaker 1: or do forex management because that's money and that's evil stuff. Yeah, 1261 01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:43,600 Speaker 1: I hope, I hope what we've described so far says like, 1262 01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:45,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's evil or not, but it's 1263 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:50,200 Speaker 1: important and it should be. I think, I honestly think 1264 01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:54,599 Speaker 1: you're going to probably probably fail if you don't consider 1265 01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,560 Speaker 1: these things at each step of the way. Yeah, and 1266 01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:01,080 Speaker 1: and even in your like one of the things that 1267 01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:04,280 Speaker 1: that you see a lot with socialist countries, is they 1268 01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:06,880 Speaker 1: basically have like a firewall, right where they try to 1269 01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,439 Speaker 1: keep a separation between the parts of their economy that 1270 01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,120 Speaker 1: like are planned and the parts of their economy that 1271 01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:18,960 Speaker 1: like are about moving forwards around. And I think, like, okay, 1272 01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:23,000 Speaker 1: like there are varying degrees of effectiveness of this, but 1273 01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:25,800 Speaker 1: like this is like even even if you're like, okay, 1274 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:27,840 Speaker 1: like we want to get rid of the economy, right, 1275 01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:29,120 Speaker 1: like we want to get rid of labor, We want 1276 01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:30,439 Speaker 1: to get rid of all the stuff as a concept, 1277 01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:36,040 Speaker 1: like you're gonna have to deal like until until you 1278 01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,439 Speaker 1: like win, right like until until you've like until you've 1279 01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:45,760 Speaker 1: raised a flag over like New York, Berlin, Shanghai like 1280 01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,800 Speaker 1: and New Delhi at the same time, right like you're 1281 01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:50,840 Speaker 1: you're gonna be You're gonna have to be dealing with 1282 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:56,000 Speaker 1: this stuff. And how how you do that and how 1283 01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:58,599 Speaker 1: quickly you're able to figure this out, how quickly you're 1284 01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:00,640 Speaker 1: you're able to implement, and how quickly you're able to 1285 01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:05,280 Speaker 1: sort of like seize control of and use the resources 1286 01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:07,439 Speaker 1: that you have in order to advant your political project. 1287 01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:10,760 Speaker 1: Is you know that that that that's going to be 1288 01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:12,559 Speaker 1: one of the things that tourms whether or not. Your 1289 01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:16,960 Speaker 1: revolution survives no matter what it's fighting for. Mhm. Like, 1290 01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:21,920 Speaker 1: in addition to all the military stuff, um, military and economic, 1291 01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,080 Speaker 1: I think you have to just say, like you have 1292 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:28,479 Speaker 1: to get to a point economically and militarily and all 1293 01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:30,360 Speaker 1: their others stuff to where you can just say to 1294 01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:33,880 Speaker 1: international powers like I don't need to make some moral 1295 01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:36,400 Speaker 1: claim to you, I've built a better mousetrap. I'm going 1296 01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:38,800 Speaker 1: to let the people decide. And it's like it just 1297 01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:44,000 Speaker 1: shows people living freely together, uh, and enjoying a good 1298 01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:47,680 Speaker 1: standard of living and they don't need to exploit each 1299 01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:52,680 Speaker 1: other to get it, and like, for not everyone, but 1300 01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:55,280 Speaker 1: many people, that will be really appealing. And you have 1301 01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:59,559 Speaker 1: to have like, uh, well more than just a diplomatic corps, 1302 01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,320 Speaker 1: you have to like an entire like a full court 1303 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:06,719 Speaker 1: international push to say like it's just a better mass trap. 1304 01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:11,360 Speaker 1: It's like it's, um, I don't need to focus on 1305 01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,479 Speaker 1: moral claims about like, well, it's better because you should 1306 01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,800 Speaker 1: just care about people because of like you should care 1307 01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:23,479 Speaker 1: about people more than capitalism permits, because it's just morally right. Um. 1308 01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,360 Speaker 1: That may be the case, but also people want to 1309 01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:28,320 Speaker 1: get paid and they want to be treated well and 1310 01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:30,559 Speaker 1: have a decent standard of living at the same time, 1311 01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:33,639 Speaker 1: and we can do it. So here's so, here's how 1312 01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:38,800 Speaker 1: like you've you've shown them specific steps you've taken, and 1313 01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:42,200 Speaker 1: you've shown them the material standard of living that is 1314 01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:47,800 Speaker 1: shared democratically, and um, it's not just like a state 1315 01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:53,000 Speaker 1: giving handing things out to people. It's like a a um, 1316 01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:57,479 Speaker 1: true industrial democracy where it's like you you get plugged in, 1317 01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:03,439 Speaker 1: you make decisions along the way, and um. Yeah, basically 1318 01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,680 Speaker 1: that Yeah, and I think I think I think that's 1319 01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,320 Speaker 1: a pretty good note to to end on as a 1320 01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:14,920 Speaker 1: a a thing that we want and things that are 1321 01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:18,200 Speaker 1: going to have to be components of it. And also 1322 01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:22,880 Speaker 1: I guess thinking about you know, like rejecting theories about 1323 01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:25,800 Speaker 1: money as incomplete that don't deal with the fact that 1324 01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,200 Speaker 1: you don't have all the resources in your country and 1325 01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:31,120 Speaker 1: you in fact indeed other things to acquire them that 1326 01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:35,720 Speaker 1: you cannot simply create into existence. Yeah, do you too 1327 01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:38,599 Speaker 1: have anything else you want to say? Before I guess 1328 01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:41,320 Speaker 1: you move into plugs. I mean, like like I said, 1329 01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, we we This might have 1330 01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:46,639 Speaker 1: sounded like a whole bunch of you know, high minded, 1331 01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:50,719 Speaker 1: theoretical egghead crap. But again I am I'm not formally 1332 01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,680 Speaker 1: educated on this stuff. This is stuff that I have 1333 01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,719 Speaker 1: learned and participated in as a socialist first and foremost, 1334 01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:02,200 Speaker 1: and it's been driven uh from the get go, at 1335 01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:07,320 Speaker 1: least for me, from UM a really fundamental desire for egality, 1336 01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:10,040 Speaker 1: for egalitarianism, and for people having a say in their 1337 01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:14,840 Speaker 1: own lives. And I hope that the people, uh who 1338 01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,680 Speaker 1: have stuck with us through this, who didn't know these 1339 01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:22,240 Speaker 1: concepts before, feel a little bit more equipped to participate 1340 01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:27,160 Speaker 1: in a discussion about, um, how you would handle these things. 1341 01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:29,439 Speaker 1: And as as I kind of alluded to, this scales 1342 01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:33,080 Speaker 1: all the way down to you know, twelve hippies on 1343 01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:36,920 Speaker 1: a farm, uh, you know this, This the scales all 1344 01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:39,439 Speaker 1: the way up until you've got a total total global 1345 01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:45,479 Speaker 1: communism pretty much anything below that. This this this principal scale. 1346 01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:51,599 Speaker 1: And I I hope that people feel um more able 1347 01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:55,840 Speaker 1: and more willing to engage both first of all, you know, 1348 01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:58,720 Speaker 1: to to tell liberals to you know, shut the funk up, 1349 01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:03,280 Speaker 1: that I should have a stay over how I participate 1350 01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:05,160 Speaker 1: in the economy, even when that's things like for X 1351 01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,960 Speaker 1: that seem very abstract and far away. Like I am, 1352 01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm a person who's affected by this. Therefore I've got 1353 01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:14,120 Speaker 1: a stake Therefore my opinion matters. Uh, and that you 1354 01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:16,960 Speaker 1: you can get there, you can learn, and you should 1355 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:21,479 Speaker 1: be allowed to participate in that. And yeah, this is 1356 01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:23,920 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to create, is you know that socialists 1357 01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:26,519 Speaker 1: do not feel like they can Those are just get 1358 01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:28,800 Speaker 1: brow beaten out of the room of a discussion because 1359 01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,599 Speaker 1: some liberal nerd pushed up their glasses a whole bunch 1360 01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:35,040 Speaker 1: and spun their bow tie and then sense of bullshit 1361 01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:39,519 Speaker 1: like you know, you it is your life and ah, 1362 01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:43,080 Speaker 1: you have a right to have an opinion on it. 1363 01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:46,760 Speaker 1: And this is not an insurmountable thing too, It's it's hard. 1364 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:48,320 Speaker 1: I want to be clear here. This is hard, and 1365 01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:52,240 Speaker 1: I want but I want you in the discussion. Well yeah, so, 1366 01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:56,880 Speaker 1: I guess speaking speaking of things that people are involved in, 1367 01:17:57,280 --> 01:17:59,000 Speaker 1: I can. I can do transitions like this because I'm 1368 01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:02,400 Speaker 1: a professional. Um, yeah, do you do? You two want 1369 01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:05,320 Speaker 1: to talk a bit about your magazine? Sure, Like we 1370 01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:08,400 Speaker 1: mentioned at up top, we're uh, Kyle and I are 1371 01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:12,040 Speaker 1: both co editors of Strange Matters magazine and we're in 1372 01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:14,360 Speaker 1: the middle of a fundraiser right now and you can 1373 01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:17,920 Speaker 1: find the fundraiser at the r L tiny url dot 1374 01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:23,120 Speaker 1: com slash Strange Matters no no dashes or anything um. 1375 01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:27,719 Speaker 1: You can also follow us on Twitter at Strange Underscore Matters. 1376 01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:33,439 Speaker 1: And the magazine itself is going to be a We're 1377 01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:38,040 Speaker 1: a literary magazine, and each issue we're publishing in both 1378 01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:44,240 Speaker 1: prints and digital. And the print issue one is about 1379 01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:47,920 Speaker 1: three pages and it's split in a half between the 1380 01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:53,840 Speaker 1: front pages which is um topics like economics, philosophy, politics, 1381 01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:57,800 Speaker 1: um more technical fields, and then the back pages is 1382 01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:08,439 Speaker 1: art um uh like culture reviews um. Anthropology is anthropology 1383 01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,400 Speaker 1: like uh more, sir. We we kind of attached it 1384 01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:17,800 Speaker 1: to the word meaning like meaning development. And and there's 1385 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,439 Speaker 1: a middle resting spot which is actually called the phuton, 1386 01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:22,160 Speaker 1: which is a prey on a play on the word 1387 01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,880 Speaker 1: fu jutan, which is like kind of a resting spot 1388 01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:28,800 Speaker 1: between those two halves where there's going to be short 1389 01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:34,160 Speaker 1: pieces of usually humorous nature. And overall it's going to 1390 01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:38,760 Speaker 1: cover a wide range of topics and you can find 1391 01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:41,400 Speaker 1: out more of us. You can find out more about 1392 01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:44,720 Speaker 1: us on our fundraiser on our website Strange Managers dot 1393 01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:46,760 Speaker 1: co op. We've got a couple of articles already off 1394 01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:50,679 Speaker 1: on strange matters Dot co Op, we have a Steve 1395 01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:54,080 Speaker 1: wrote an amazing piece explaining of some very uh in 1396 01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:57,000 Speaker 1: very layman's terms of arguments about what inflation is and 1397 01:19:57,080 --> 01:19:59,000 Speaker 1: why we should care about it, you know, very good, 1398 01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:05,759 Speaker 1: very relevant. Right now, we have a truly delightful review 1399 01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:12,280 Speaker 1: of very contemporary, very recently made cyberpunk works by Elizabeth Sandiford, 1400 01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:15,360 Speaker 1: author of Neo Reaction of Bassilisk, which anybody who listens 1401 01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:18,160 Speaker 1: to this podcast and needs to read Neo Reaction of Bassilisk, uh, 1402 01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:21,160 Speaker 1: and she did as the wonderful favor of doing a 1403 01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:25,040 Speaker 1: pop culture review for us. We've yeah, we've also got 1404 01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:29,400 Speaker 1: a work by the editors Words for Our Present Reality 1405 01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:34,920 Speaker 1: about what how how can we discuss what actually exists 1406 01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:38,120 Speaker 1: in the world and what are the shortcomings with our 1407 01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:41,479 Speaker 1: current just like the basic levels of our discourse, and 1408 01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:45,439 Speaker 1: how can we advance beyond beyond this difficulty? And it's 1409 01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:47,439 Speaker 1: you know, it's something that sounds like it's supposed to 1410 01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:50,840 Speaker 1: be this very high level philosophy, but we've been I think, uh, 1411 01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:52,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to take too much credit for this 1412 01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:54,599 Speaker 1: because I was not the main writer on it. Uh 1413 01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:59,720 Speaker 1: I think that we've successfully managed to bring it down 1414 01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:03,160 Speaker 1: to to a lower brow level, uh you know, to 1415 01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:06,160 Speaker 1: a to a level that doesn't require you to have 1416 01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:10,720 Speaker 1: eighteen letters after your name of various college degrees. We 1417 01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,439 Speaker 1: also managed to publish a piece by a Russian dissidents. 1418 01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,400 Speaker 1: And I'm very excited for the works that people are 1419 01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:18,880 Speaker 1: going to see in the future from us. We've got 1420 01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:23,600 Speaker 1: a history of black cooperative movements. We've i wrote a 1421 01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:27,559 Speaker 1: nice little ditty about colonialism in modern board games. Uh, 1422 01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:29,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm very excited for people to get the chance 1423 01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:32,160 Speaker 1: to read these and uh, you know, it's all kind 1424 01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:37,160 Speaker 1: of in the service of I was creating a more 1425 01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:43,400 Speaker 1: almost democratizing the socialist world and making it, making it meaningful, 1426 01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:47,439 Speaker 1: making it useful, and also making it pleasurable for people 1427 01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:51,640 Speaker 1: to be socialists and to fight for a freer and 1428 01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:54,280 Speaker 1: more equitable world. Yeah. Do you two? Do you two 1429 01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:56,120 Speaker 1: want people to find you on social media? And if 1430 01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:59,960 Speaker 1: so where? Okay, you can say no to this. People 1431 01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:04,960 Speaker 1: do sometimes because the first hell s, okay, we'll have 1432 01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:10,240 Speaker 1: social media is not really on social media. I am 1433 01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:14,439 Speaker 1: on some social media, so you can find you can 1434 01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:18,200 Speaker 1: find me at at kept him in Whackham and I'll 1435 01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:21,519 Speaker 1: spell that out because it's kind of confusing at C 1436 01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:29,040 Speaker 1: A P M in W A C C in spelling 1437 01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:36,120 Speaker 1: your own Nadian name. Um yeah, So Strange Matters is 1438 01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:39,680 Speaker 1: our our campaign will run through this month and it's 1439 01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:42,320 Speaker 1: going pretty good so far. But we can use uh 1440 01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:45,920 Speaker 1: every little bit of support goes a long way. So yeah, 1441 01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:49,559 Speaker 1: find find us at our website and also the fundraiser. Yeah, 1442 01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:52,160 Speaker 1: we're not getting paid. Just to be clear, this is 1443 01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:54,400 Speaker 1: the we we need to pay the authors, we need 1444 01:22:54,439 --> 01:22:56,360 Speaker 1: to pay for the printers. But you know this is 1445 01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:58,720 Speaker 1: not us trying to make a quick buck. This is 1446 01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:01,639 Speaker 1: us trying to make sure we we are not willing 1447 01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:06,400 Speaker 1: to accept paying our writer's substandard. We're going to pay 1448 01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:10,200 Speaker 1: our writers higher than market rate as on principle because 1449 01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,080 Speaker 1: we think the market rate is just too low. It 1450 01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:16,320 Speaker 1: really is. Yeah. And um oh and by the way, 1451 01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:20,400 Speaker 1: we're I think I mentioned it, but we're our workers cooperative, 1452 01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:23,599 Speaker 1: so we're a d percent worker owned in control. There's 1453 01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:27,800 Speaker 1: no there are no levels of employment or ownership. We're 1454 01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:34,720 Speaker 1: all horizontal. Yeah yeah, so yeah, go go check out 1455 01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:38,439 Speaker 1: Change Matters. Um. Yeah, thank thank you too, both for 1456 01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:41,559 Speaker 1: thank you both for joining us. It was a wonderful time. Chris, 1457 01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:44,600 Speaker 1: thank you, thanks for having us. Yeah, and if you 1458 01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:47,880 Speaker 1: want to find more of us, uh, We're at happens 1459 01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:51,400 Speaker 1: your pod on Twitter, Instagram, I keep saying Instagram. I've 1460 01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:55,200 Speaker 1: never actually I'm on on Instagram, so I've been told 1461 01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:58,439 Speaker 1: we have one. I've never interacted with it. Uh yeah, 1462 01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:03,040 Speaker 1: and uh, cool Zone Media, it has our other shows. 1463 01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:07,280 Speaker 1: Go listen to them. Uh they're good and we work 1464 01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:15,160 Speaker 1: a lot on them. Alright, bye bye, good bye. It 1465 01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:17,439 Speaker 1: could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 1466 01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:20,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 1467 01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:22,479 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com, or check us out on 1468 01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:25,080 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1469 01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:27,920 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 1470 01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:30,880 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 1471 01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:32,880 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.