WEBVTT - Fundamentalism: Menace II Society 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:05.600 Hey, everybody, February one, second, third, we're going to be 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:11.160 in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco again. That's right. We can't 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:13.360 wait to get back on stage. We've really missed in 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.520 live shows coming out and see us. Tickets are already 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.160 on sale and where can you get those at link 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.079 tree slash s y s K Live. That's l I 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:26.279 n K t R dot E slash s y s 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:31.280 K Live. I can't wait to see everybody. Welcome to 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:40.600 Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.240 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.920 Charles W. Chuck Bright and Jerry's here of course, which 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:52.440 makes this Stuff you Should Know from you can. I 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.200 lead off with a couple of just fun quick shoutouts 0:00:55.200 --> 0:01:00.360 before we get to the not fun hm topic. You know, uh, 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.960 going to Boston tomorrow to see Pavement. Oh that's what 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:08.039 you're doing? Okay? Great? Uh. My old friend from high school, 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:14.759 Robert h. Chehade of Toughs University fame, we were texting 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.319 about Pavement and he said, this is back when tickets 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.679 went on sale. I'm going to both Atlanta shows, of course, 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:20.800 and he said, you want to come up here? I 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.839 was like, heck, yeah, so going to see the Boys tomorrow, 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.760 and UH also want to quickly shout out I just 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:32.120 got back recently from my uh tenth, eleventh, and twelve 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.280 Bonnie Prince Billy shows for the last couple of years, 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.360 and I just want to shout out the great people 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:45.640 in towns of Santa Cruz, California, Pasa Roblis, California, and 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.320 Big Sir. Oh yeah, I just had a great time 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.400 out there. It's my part of the country. I love 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:57.880 northern California. To my vibe, had great breakfast burrito's, great food. 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:02.600 They do him right, man. He can't get a real 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:05.840 decent breakfast burrito in Atlanta, and I don't know why 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.880 that's gonna be my retirement job. Oh that's great, I'll come. 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.120 I'll come patronize your breakfast period. I don't know what 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.520 is so hard about a California saw breakfast burrito, but 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:20.080 Atlanta does not seem capable. It's probably too healthy. It's 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.440 not healthy. Okay, Well then I don't know. I'm all 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.240 out of ideas. Chuck's so frustrating anyway, great towns, great shows. 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.880 Another great run with the great will Oldham. This time solo, 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.240 first time I've ever seen him literally by himself. He 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.120 has a variety of arrangements, ranging from full band a 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:46.120 couple of people to six or eight bluegrass style. And 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.799 this was this was just him, which was a treat 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:55.000 unplugged for once plugged but acoustic. Yeah, okay, did you 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:57.679 I was wondering if you've gotten yourself a vand of 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.480 hollo him around and yet no, no, I'm flying in 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.360 these places. Yeah, that seems sensible, because then I ran 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:06.560 it'd be tough to get back in time to work. 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:08.760 You know, I wish you could fly in a place 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.519 and rent a little hippie van to follow someone around 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.119 for a few days. That sounds like your retirement job 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.560 instead of some dumb mid sized suv. Yeah, you could 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:23.480 be like, run a VW wagon, get a free breakfast burrito. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.480 There you go. That's that's it. I might invest in 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.760 that one. All right. Now, let's talk about fundamentalism. Yeah, 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.800 let's talk about fundamentalism. Um, this is uh, this is 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.600 one of those kind of I guess episodes that ties 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.160 into a bunch of other stuff, and it's the kind 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:42.800 of thing that you don't really think about, and then 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:44.960 when you do think about you wish you weren't thinking about. 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.240 But it's kind of important, I think for everybody to 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:51.160 be aware of because with fundamentalism, a lot of people, 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:56.800 especially non religious people, just presume that fundamentalism is a 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:02.240 religious thing only necessarily deaf only does affect religions most easily, 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.320 as we'll see, But basically anything that people really hold 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:11.360 dear um can actually produce fundamentalism. And when you kind 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:15.800 of strip it of its religious connotations, um it it 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.880 becomes clear like, oh yeah, there's a lot of fundamentalism 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:23.680 going on around. It's especially in two UM and it's 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.120 it has given me just researching this, it's given me 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:29.520 like a deeper impulse to be like, hold the center, 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.080 Hold the center. We can make it through this. We 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.279 just have to. We just have to get to the 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.920 other side and make sure that the center remains intact. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.599 You know. Yeah, I think, I mean, you put this together. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.320 You did a great job, by the way, on a 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:48.279 on a tough topic. But um, I think the sociologists 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.480 that you found that said, uh, this really had it 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:56.760 is um. Fundamentalism is an ideology rather than a theology, 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.719 so it can be religious in nature, but it doesn't 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.000 have to be all that to say that sort of 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:04.120 a long winded c o A that this is not 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.360 a hit piece on religion at all, but it is. 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:09.840 You know, I think it is going to end up 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.360 being a bit of a condemnation on fundamentalism, because it's 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.680 not a great way to be to say, hey, the 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.920 way we think of things is the only right way. 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.680 Everybody else is wrong, and I don't want anything to 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.160 do with you. Well, not only that you need to 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:29.320 change your viewpoints to find that follow mine, because mine's 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.000 the only right way to think. That's a terrible way 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:35.240 to be terrible and and truly, when you start to 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.400 research fundamentalism, you you do start to see it everywhere. 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.760 Maybe not stuff that checks every single box, but when 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.000 you understand the basics of it, it's it becomes clear 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.039 we're surrounded by it right now. Um, And that's actually 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.760 kind of a new thing. Um. One of the things 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.320 about fundamentalism is when when you kind of listen to 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.160 what they're saying, they imagine that they're they're taking society 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.400 back to this you know, golden age or golden arrow 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.359 and things, you know, we're more sensible and more predictable 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.479 and reliable and things just made sense more. But UM 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.599 fundamentalism is actually a pretty modern thing. Um. It only 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.719 arose starting in about eighteen seventy. Uh, and it was 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:24.440 originally UM this kind of uh assault or response to 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.040 progressive ism in religion. Yeah, that's a good way to 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.480 say it. I think the first wave he said, ran 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:38.000 from about eighteen seventy to nineteen nine. I'm sorry, and 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.159 uh and we'll you know, we'll see in a minute 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.600 here kind of how and why it ended. The first 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.599 run at least, or at least brought it underground. But 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.279 it started or it took its name at least from 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:55.479 a series of pamphlets called The Fundamentals colon Uh, Testimony 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.200 of the Truth. And that kind of says it all 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.960 right there, They're like someone saying, this is the truth. 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.280 This is not our opinion on maybe how things should be. 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:08.480 Is this is the one way that things clearly should be, 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.720 because it's the only way, because it's the one truth. Yeah. 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.560 And around that time, in the late nineteenth century, UM 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.720 religion in America was starting to become more progressive because 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.400 society was modernizing and to kind of adapt and change 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:29.880 and alter itself to this modernizing society. UM, just the 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:35.600 understanding of what religion meant was under transition, and fundamentalists said, no, no, no, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.880 religion is religion. It doesn't matter what society does. This 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.160 is the truth, This is the this is the way 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.280 that it's supposed to be, and we need to stop 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.440 progressing away from it and being accommodating to to modern society. 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:50.880 We need to make modern society go back to the 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.920 old ways, you know, the ways were we're in charge. Yeah, 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.040 and there was a big um sort of one of 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:01.160 the first big face punches to fundamentalism came about in 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.960 eighteen fifty nine. Uh well, I kind of helped give 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:09.240 rise to the original fundamentalism. But the publication of On 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.680 the Origin of the Species from Darwin, which basically you know, 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.640 everyone knows what that did. That introduced evolution and natural 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:20.080 selection and really undermine sort of in writing for the 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:25.280 first time, it challenged creationism as why we're here and 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.720 how we got here, and it was it's sort of 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.560 as you'll see that you know, at times when um, 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.800 a fundamentalist might think, or a religion might think that 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.400 they're being threatened by new ideas, that's sort of when 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.480 the lockdown goes on and they really sort of rise 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.080 to the occasion, and that sort of helped birth the 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.679 big first rise of fundamentalism. Yeah, fundamentalism UM took its 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:55.720 first swipe at modern modernity. Yeah sure, UM with the 0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:02.079 Scopes Monkey trial in UM. It was uh Tennessee versus Scopes, 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:06.960 where Tennessee had charged public UM school teacher John Scopes 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.079 of teaching evolution in the classroom, which was against the law. 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.680 They charged the science teacher with teaching science exactly, That's 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.800 exactly right, UM, And a guy, a very powerful and 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.560 um prestigious and smart attorney named Clarence Darrow came to 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.400 the aid of John Scopes, UM, and the Scopes Monkey 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.960 trial actually ended up putting not John Scopes on trial, 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.360 but fundamentalism on trial. And Clarence Darrow was not a 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.840 fan of fundamentalism, and he basically used this trial as 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.600 an excuse to just just show how ridiculous and backwards 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.720 these fundamentalists beliefs were. That's right, and it worked. Uh 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.800 he in a sense, he lost the trial. I believe 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:54.160 in that until nineteen sixty seven that ban on teaching 0:09:54.160 --> 0:10:00.600 evolution remained in effect, uh seven from UM. But you know, 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:02.440 he lost a battle. He won the war and that 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:07.960 the coverage of the Scopes monkey trial really like kind 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.000 of blew the whole thing up and dealt a big 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:14.280 blow to what fundamentalism was in the US and how 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.800 much sort of influence they might have moving forward. And 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.920 kind of what it did post Scopes was it kind 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:25.960 of moved it back underground for several decades. Yeah. I 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.040 kind of think of the Scopes Monkey Trial and the 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.160 result of it is like, um, when Homer gets embarrassed 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.000 on The Simpsons and the whole town just points and 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:37.480 laughs at him. In that instance, Homer is fundamentalism in 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.600 the nine twenties in America, right. Like, society did not 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:44.160 think much of it afterwards, which is surprising because it 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.920 had been kind of a respected school of thought UM 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:49.719 for a little while, and I guess it just kind 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.760 of it just went too far towards the mainstream and 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.360 as it went underground. It's not like it just went away, UM. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:02.120 It actually built up a kind of like shadow institution 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:12.800 to rival the secular society like schools, UM TV stations, UH, colleges, seminaries, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.920 mission groups, and then also started to really kind of 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:20.400 recruit new followers and members of these fundamentalist ideas UM 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.960 through churches, through church outreach as well. Um, and over 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.600 the years they just kind of built more and more 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.960 strength and more and more strength than in the late seventies. 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:35.080 Was just like a tidal wave of fundamentalism swept across 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:39.360 the world and really caught sociology off guard. Yeah, and 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.839 like you said, around the world, it wasn't just we're 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.000 not just saying like you United States Christians did this. 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.719 It was it popped up in some very surprising places sometimes. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.720 But again, it kind of all happened at once. But 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:54.800 there was a big distinction here with the second wave, 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:59.240 and that the first wave was really too um to 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:03.200 to kind of strike back against progressive religious movement and 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:07.200 kind of keep religion as it was and not to 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:12.400 modernize religion in any way. This go around, it said, uh, 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.000 society as a whole, I don't want anything to do 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:19.320 with this modernization and this progressivism that's going on, and 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.440 forget religion, Like, we want to get involved in government 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.760 and we'll and we're gonna do it in a big way. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.080 And that's when the Christian right was born and groups 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.080 like the Moral Majority and the Christian Coalition put big 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:37.040 money into politics and help you know, sort of the 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:42.559 beginning of getting politicians elected with a with a pretty 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.000 severe religious bent. Yeah. And in some cases they were 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:50.800 directly trying to elect fundamentalists like Pat Robertson actually ran 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:56.520 for president campaign UM and uh did not win, but 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.319 he is about as fundamentalists as you can get and 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.760 see like a mainstream television station with the seven hundred club, 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:08.880 but also like backing UM politicians with such gusto that 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:14.200 the politicians they got elected basically owed them. Uh. And 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.640 in that way, fundamentalism like really kind of crept into 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.839 um American politics. And since that time you start to 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.320 see things like basically a challenge to the concept of 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.240 something like a separation of church and state that is 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.760 completely at odds with American Christian fundamentalism. Uh. And so 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.600 there's been as as fundamentalism has gotten more and more 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.320 into American politics, there the line between church and state, 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.360 um has been blurred more and more. And that's just 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.280 one example of it. Yeah. And like you mentioned, it 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.839 happened all around the world in the late seventies. In 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:53.120 ninety nine, to be specific, Uh, militant Schiites followed Uh 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.680 it's all Komany and took Iran away from the Shaw 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.760 and installed uh Komani as the leader. And you know, 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:03.920 I remember this when I was a kid. If you 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:05.599 and I mentioned this on the show before. If you 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.160 go back and just google Iran pre revolution, you will 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:15.600 see a very swinging sixties and seventies groovy country. Uh. 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.160 That is not like the Iran we know today. And 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.000 that was partially not partially, that was completely due to 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.680 the Shiite uprising and revolution that happened because of fundamental 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:30.320 religious fundamentalism in their case. Yeah, it's exactly like if 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:36.200 followers of Jerry Folwell um created an armed insurgency and 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.440 overthrew the American government and installed Jerry Falwell as the 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.800 supreme leader of America. It's the exact same thing. That's 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.600 what happened in Iran. And it's really sad to see, 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.360 but I mean that's what happened, and it was part 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.040 of this wave of of fundamentalism. Um. There was also 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.280 Israel started to get more fundamentalist starting in nineteen seventy four. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.840 There's still um a lot of challenges by fundamentalism within 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:05.080 Israeli politics today. UM. India has a nationalist party, a 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.480 Hindu nationalist party, I should say, the b j P Um, 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:12.720 they're fundamentalists, Hindu fundamentalists. Um, they've actually held power like 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:16.560 the presidency multiple times since nineteen eighty UM. And then 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:21.520 today there's still waves of fundamentalism going on in Africa. 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:27.360 Has become a laboratory for Christian fundamentalists who basically travel 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:32.440 to Africa as activists and um get new laws, fundamentalist 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.360 laws passed in countries like Uganda, whereas of two thousand 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.360 and fourteen, you can be sentenced to life in prison 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.400 just for being gay. That is thanks to American fundamentalists 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.080 who traveled to Uganda, got in with the government and 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.640 changed laws like that, or got laws like that created 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.400 or enforced. Yeah, and it's it's crazy when you look 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.280 at the all this happening at once, Like you said, 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.640 you know, it's seventy nine in Iran, seventy four in Israel, 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.160 then I teen seventies in the United States. Uh, it 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.600 was just a it's weird how things happened like that. 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.000 I wonder if there's a podcast topic in there about 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:18.800 like un nonplanned coalescence of you know, anything, just a zeitgeist. Yeah, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:20.760 I guess that that's sort of the word I'm looking for. 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.360 I wonder too, because it's not like the shi i 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.760 Um militants in Iran. We're undergoing the same experience as 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.760 the Moral Majority in the US. But the timing is insane. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.000 I mean we're talking like within a year of each other. 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.720 There's the Iranian Revolution and the Moral Majority springs up 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.600 and gets Ronald Reagan elected like that. That's and then 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.320 in in India in nineteen eighty that the Hindu Nationalist 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.080 Um Party gets founded. Like all of it happened at 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.920 the same time, and it had to be had to 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.960 intertwine in some way. But I just don't see like 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:02.440 um you know, um pat Robertson in the comine like 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:07.119 coordinating any So, how did it happens? I don't know. 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.800 It's a pushback against something else that was happening, But 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.080 I don't know. I think I find that stuff fascinating, 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.520 how societies move as a whole. All right, how about 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.879 a break? Yes, I think we're doing good so far, man, 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.199 And we'll talk a little bit more about the F 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:44.960 word right after this. Okay. So there's some things that 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:50.720 that people some misconceptions um see you jinkstas chuck um 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.280 that people have about fundamental See that's why I said 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:55.960 the F word. I wasn't trying to be cheeky. I'm 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.400 having a hard time saying the word. So. Um, there's 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.240 some miscons sceptions about fundamentalism that most people, especially secular 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.879 people have, And like we said at the outset that 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.399 a lot of people think it's it's an infection of 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.399 religion and that it's a religion problem and if you 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.120 aren't a member of a church or a religious group, 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.840 it's not your problem, and that's absolutely untrue, and that 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.000 that viewpoint of the whole thing is actually a big 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:26.199 problem for society as a whole. Yeah. Uh. And we 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.520 mentioned earlier a little bit that like often you'll see 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.160 fundamentalism creep up when they feel like something is being 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.640 threatened that they hold dear, and that's when they really 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.479 locked down and get active. And you can look at 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.200 things like, you know, people are fundamentalists about the Second Amendment, 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.680 people are fundamentalists about the First Amendment. Uh. And it's 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.720 usually more so at times where they feel like those 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:54.159 amendments are threatened. During the Cold War, people were, um, 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.280 you know, the threat of communism really made people a 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:01.600 lot of people fundamentalists about uh, the free market, let's say, 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.800 and uh, what else. There's a lot of other great examples. Um. Ironically, 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.480 people like Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins who are basically 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:15.320 militantly anti religious. Um, they are accused by some of 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:20.320 being fundamentalists, and they're thinking in part because they're intolerant, which, 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.159 as we'll see is a really important part. Um. And 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:28.000 that intolerance also gets um liberal college campuses accused of 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.440 becoming more and more fundamentalist in their thinking, where non 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.840 liberal professors can actually find their their jobs in jeopardy 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.440 and actually do get canned because of something they said 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:44.320 that wasn't sufficiently liberal enough. Right, So this is kind 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.639 of what I was talking about earlier, where it's not 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:52.840 like Bill March checks every single box of you know, fundamentalism, 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.960 but if you if you understand fundamental fundamentalism, he actually 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.639 comes there's a lot of there's enough boxes that it 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:04.480 makes question, Okay, is this actually fundamentalist thinking? Um, same 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.240 with constitutional originalists, Like it does not have to be religion, 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.000 and once you stop looking at fundamentalism as a really 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.440 strictly religious thing, it really does open one's eyes to 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.680 just the world in general. Yeah, I totally agree. Um, 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:21.800 you mentioned something really important a second ago in that, 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:27.440 which was intolerance, which is a real hallmark of fundamentalism. U. 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.120 And a really great example that you gave in your 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.680 research here is the Amish. You can't get any more 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:38.720 sort of tighten it and strict religious than the Amish. 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.720 But the Amish, you know, who knows what they say 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.840 about us. They may judge us, but what they don't 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.160 do is leave their community and knock on our door 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:49.840 and try and convert you to being Amish and say 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.080 the Amish way of thinking is the only right way 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.359 and everyone else should be like this. Yeah, they're not 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.560 running like Amish people in the local primaries to take 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.119 over the school board because they want to impose is 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.920 Amish beliefs on the rest of the community. They don't 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.480 do that. They're not fundamentalist. And that's a really important 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:11.840 distinction and intolerance. It's basically, uh, there there is no compromise. 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:16.640 There is one true viewpoint that is correct, and anything 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.480 that differs from that is the enemy of that. Yeah, 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.560 I mean, and intolerance is such an important part of 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.280 fundamentalism that you can almost use it as a litmus 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.560 test to say, Okay, is this thinking fundamentalist or not, 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.360 because if if there's no intolerance. You just you got 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.199 the Amish people who really really believe in in what 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:36.720 they believe in, but they're not trying to impose their 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:39.440 beliefs on anybody else, and they're fine with you believing 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.400 whatever you believe. That's that's your problem. You're going to hell. 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.040 Although I don't think the Amish hopefully think like that. 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:53.119 But whatever, UM and that intolerance makes it like incompatible 0:21:53.200 --> 0:22:00.440 with society because in modern society, UM tolerance is extraordinarily important. 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:04.119 And not only is an important, it's it's it's considered 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.280 to be something that just kind of bubbles up to 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.360 the top because it ends up holding society together. When 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:14.400 you have so many different disparate people of different religions, 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:19.480 of different creeds, of different nationalities, of um, different sexual orientation, 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:24.879 of different genders, all living together in one country and 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:28.760 they can coexist peacefully. Tolerance is just going to develop 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:34.360 over time. And if you have intolerance, active intolerance, that's 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.960 an infection on that society. And that's why fundamentalism is 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:41.320 so dangerous to society. So yeah, I mean that's a 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.720 really good point. And in a in a modern society, Uh, 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.840 we've talked before about the marketplace of ideas, which is 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.880 the idea that um. People just throw out a lot 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.119 of different ideas, and the ones that work the best 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:57.280 are the ones that are going to rise to the top, 0:22:57.320 --> 0:22:59.320 and those are probably going to be the ones that 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:03.680 are the most widely accommodating to the most people. And 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.840 if you are a fundamentalist, you're not a big fan 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.280 of the marketplace of ideas. You're not a big fan 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:13.280 of what's the most widely accommodating. Because as society has 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.879 progressed over the years, it has gotten more well progressive, 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.960 and it's gotten more modern, and things have moved forward, 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:25.280 and fundamentalism is inherently kind of anti that in general. 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:28.760 And they're like that that can spring up in the workplace. 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:31.200 It's like I don't want to work. I don't want 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:33.480 to have a cubicle next to this kind of person 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.640 quote unquote UM. And it's not like I'll go quit 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.640 my job. It's like, uh no, why don't we Why 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:44.960 don't they leave? Why don't you fire them right for 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:47.800 being gay? Because they're the ones that are the problem. 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:51.399 I'm the one that subscribes to the truth. And it 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:55.200 doesn't even matter if you're speaking out or not speaking 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.199 out against fundamentalist beliefs. If you just subscribe to a 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.679 different way of thinking, you are challenging the truth, and 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:07.080 that cannot be tolerated. Opposing viewpoints cannot be tolerated by fundamentalism. 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:10.159 They have to be stamped out, they have to be ostracized, 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:14.400 they have to have violence against them in some cases. Um. 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:17.439 And so it would make more sense to that that 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:22.120 fundamentalist worker that their gay coworkers should be fired, not them. Um. 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.480 And that's that's again, that's a huge contradiction to society, 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.960 modern society in particular. Yeah, And I mean, you made 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:32.920 a really good point when you sort of talked about 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:38.919 the hippie movement. Um. Fundamentalism does challenge modernism kind of 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:43.240 full stop for control of what's going on. And the 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:47.040 hippies they had a counterculture. They didn't like what was 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:50.159 going on in modern society. They challenged it as well, 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.240 but there was a big difference in that they rejected 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:56.760 modern society and just sort of turn their backs on 0:24:56.800 --> 0:24:59.000 it and want to create a new way for themselves, 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:02.080 like their own utophe, which obviously was never gonna happen. 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:04.840 God bless of hippies. But that's what they tried to do. 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:07.600 At least what they didn't do was try and say 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.520 everybody should be hippies. We want to take control of 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:13.680 the government and until everyone that they should lead a 0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:20.360