1
00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,040
Speaker 1: On April fourth, nineteen sixty seven, doctor Martin Luther King

2
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,480
Speaker 1: Junior gave a very famous anti war speech at Riverside

3
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,160
Speaker 1: Church in New York City. That speech was the first

4
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 1: time Doctor King spoke out against the Vietnam War, but

5
00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 1: MLK had much more to say.

6
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,960
Speaker 2: I am convinced that if we ought to get on

7
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,720
Speaker 2: the right side of the world Revolution, we as a

8
00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,720
Speaker 2: nation must undergo a radical revolution of values.

9
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,360
Speaker 3: We must rapidly begin.

10
00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,320
Speaker 4: We must rapidly.

11
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 2: Begin the shift from a thing oriented society to a

12
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,880
Speaker 2: person oriented society.

13
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,640
Speaker 1: During that subsequent Summer of Love in sixty seven, Doctor

14
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: King continued to press on in his new struggle. In August,

15
00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,520
Speaker 1: he gave a speech at Stanford University. In his address,

16
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,640
Speaker 1: he connected civil rights to the greater fights around the world,

17
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,880
Speaker 1: like the struggle against apartheid. As he spoke of black dignity,

18
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 1: MLKA asked his audience, where do we go from here?

19
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 2: We must stand up amid a system that still oppresses

20
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:25,400
Speaker 2: us and develop an unassailable and majestic sense of values.

21
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,760
Speaker 2: We must no longer be ashamed of being black. The

22
00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,960
Speaker 2: job of arousing manhood within a people that have been

23
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,520
Speaker 2: taught for so many centuries that they are nobody is

24
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:39,400
Speaker 2: not easy.

25
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 1: Despite these struggles and challenges, he spoke of, Doctor King

26
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,520
Speaker 1: reassured his audience that he possessed a solution to the

27
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 1: present crisis of bigotry.

28
00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,880
Speaker 2: The negro must boldly throw off the manacles of self

29
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 2: abnegation and say to himself and to the world, I

30
00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 2: am somebody. I am a person. I am a man

31
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,880
Speaker 2: with dignity and honor. I have a rich and noble history,

32
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,560
Speaker 2: however painful and exploited.

33
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,119
Speaker 3: That history has been.

34
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,560
Speaker 2: Yes, I was a slave through my four parents, and

35
00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 2: now I'm not ashamed of that. I am ashamed of

36
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 2: the people who are so sinful to make me a slave. Yes, yes,

37
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,960
Speaker 2: we must stand up and say I'm black, but I'm

38
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 2: black and.

39
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 1: Beautiful, or, to borrow a lyric from the Godfather of Soul,

40
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 1: say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud. This was

41
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 1: all part of a radical change that was already well

42
00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,919
Speaker 1: under way. It was a collective rewriting of the story

43
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:50,639
Speaker 1: of Black America, the one that folks tell themselves individually, personally, emotionally.

44
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,840
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, black Americans were beginning to construct

45
00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,839
Speaker 1: new narratives about who we were and who we are.

46
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,400
Speaker 1: This was due to heroic effort by both Martin Luther

47
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 1: King Junior and Muhammad ad Li. Muhammad ad Li's biographer,

48
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,760
Speaker 1: Jonathan Ig is also the author of King a Life,

49
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 1: recently published poetry prize winning biography of doctor Martin Luther King.

50
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,640
Speaker 1: Familiar with the stories of both great men, Jonathan Ig

51
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,919
Speaker 1: notes how the two civil rights figures inspired and influenced

52
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:24,400
Speaker 1: each other.

53
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,520
Speaker 5: Ali is one of the first public figures to be

54
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 5: outspoken in opposing the war in Vietnam, and then when

55
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 5: King begins to speak on the same subject, it does

56
00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 5: help that Ali has already introduced some of these themes.

57
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 5: And I think that it's an interesting moment because I

58
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,600
Speaker 5: think the two men respect one another, even though Ali

59
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,080
Speaker 5: disagrees with King's integration efforts. And a couple times they met,

60
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 5: they got along great. You know, they're both really wonderful guys.

61
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,560
Speaker 5: They're both just really gregarious, fun people to be around,

62
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,640
Speaker 5: and they really hit it off.

63
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 1: And then on April fourth, nineteen sixty eight, exactly one

64
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 1: year after the legendary Mary Riverside Church speech, doctor King

65
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 1: stands taking in the morning air on the balcony of

66
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 1: the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee, when he is shot

67
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:19,880
Speaker 1: and killed. Now, Muhammad Ali, the People's champ, is all

68
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,960
Speaker 1: but left alone to carry on the global revolution that

69
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,080
Speaker 1: he and Doctor King both agreed upon and fought to advance.

70
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,680
Speaker 1: Welcome to Rumble, Ali Foreman and the Soul of seventy four.

71
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,719
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Zarn Burnett, the third from iHeart Podcast

72
00:04:47,760 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 1: and School of Humans. This is Rumble. Previously Rumble.

73
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 6: I know where I'm going, and I know the truth,

74
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,720
Speaker 6: and I don't have to be what you want.

75
00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:06,839
Speaker 7: Me to be.

76
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,400
Speaker 3: Malcolm X was there and the announced that he had

77
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:10,880
Speaker 3: changed his name to Cash's X.

78
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,839
Speaker 8: He was willing to face conviction for draft division.

79
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 3: Jane Brown said, said, and I Kid said, I'm blacking.

80
00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:20,480
Speaker 3: I'm proud.

81
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 9: American blacks did not have a country to connect with,

82
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 9: So therefore getting to the word black and identifying with that,

83
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 9: that was a step.

84
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 10: The first thing you need to tell a story is conflict.

85
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,920
Speaker 1: That's the sports writer Mark Kriegel. What he says is

86
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,160
Speaker 1: as true for boxing as it is for fiction, or

87
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,599
Speaker 1: really for any writing. Muhammad ad Lee certainly grasped this truth.

88
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,240
Speaker 1: Ali liked to draw inspiration from pro wrestling for his

89
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 1: pre fight antics outside the boxing ring. Specifically, he drew

90
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 1: upon the boasts and bomb basts of the legendary mid

91
00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:07,320
Speaker 1: century pro wrestler Gorgeous George Ali understood what all he

92
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: could borrow and bring into boxing and its presentation of

93
00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,719
Speaker 1: two men fighting inside the square ring.

94
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:20,080
Speaker 10: Back to Krigel, so boxing is stage managed conflict stripped down.

95
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 10: Both fighters are essentially naked as far as the audience

96
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 10: is concerned. They're pretty much stripped bare. So they go

97
00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 10: in there with shorts, boxing shoes, and their histories, and

98
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 10: you're able to examine their histories in pretty much minute detail,

99
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,200
Speaker 10: and at some point, more often than not, you're going

100
00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 10: to see something intimate, deeply intimate, revealed about the protagonists.

101
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,919
Speaker 1: Boxing acts as a crucible that distills essential truths about

102
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 1: the fighters, because.

103
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 10: The thing about boxing is, for all of its obvious injustice,

104
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,600
Speaker 10: it's obvious shittiness. Every so often you see something that

105
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,320
Speaker 10: is sublime that actually gives you some kind of hope

106
00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 10: that people aren't as fucked up or as evil as

107
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 10: you previously thought, because it is such a cesspool or

108
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 10: tends towards that the revelation is really beautiful.

109
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: Plus boxing was a sport ready made for America's new

110
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 1: mid century obsession.

111
00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,480
Speaker 10: What makes it great for America is that it works

112
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 10: well on television, and television is the great American art form.

113
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 10: I mean, it's also the great American shlock form.

114
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 3: But I mean cinema.

115
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 10: Started as European. I guess the novel is European, but

116
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 10: TV that's American.

117
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 1: Like much of what you find today on TV and

118
00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,440
Speaker 1: streaming and online culture, Muhammad Ali offered up spectacle and hype,

119
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,000
Speaker 1: unchecked ego, and endless drama.

120
00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,280
Speaker 6: I shook up the file, Ah shook up the world.

121
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 6: Ah pretty, I'm a bad man.

122
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,760
Speaker 1: And it should be obvious by now that Ali's ego

123
00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 1: was fed on his own hype. Same as they nourish

124
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,960
Speaker 1: their bodies, boxers must feed their egos. Ali knew this

125
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 1: to be a gospel truth of the fight game.

126
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 10: To do this thing properly, To get in the ring,

127
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,520
Speaker 10: you know, half naked, in front of other people and

128
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,920
Speaker 10: try to beat someone up or try not to get

129
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:38,599
Speaker 10: beat up, that act alone requires an insane amount of narcissism.

130
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 10: If you're going to do what Ali did and you're

131
00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,199
Speaker 10: gonna say I'm the greatest, it's a form of crazy

132
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 10: that's required, and he couldn't have done it otherwise.

133
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,439
Speaker 1: Ali's ego moved with the same speed and certainty as

134
00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,680
Speaker 1: his super fast jabs and hooks. To that point, Mark

135
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 1: Creek sites a great passage from an essay by Norman

136
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 1: Mailer where.

137
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 3: He talks about ego.

138
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,880
Speaker 10: I think I'm looking at it a little bit differently here,

139
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 10: but I mean, after covering fights week in week out,

140
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 10: one of the things that distinguishes all fighters, but certainly

141
00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,520
Speaker 10: great ones, is you have to have You have to

142
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,439
Speaker 10: have a voracious ego.

143
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,320
Speaker 4: If you don't, you're done.

144
00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 1: Or as Norman Mailer put it in his essay, what

145
00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,679
Speaker 1: separates the noble ego of the prize fighters from the

146
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,920
Speaker 1: lesser ego of authors is.

147
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,960
Speaker 11: That the fighter goes through experiences in the ring which

148
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 11: are occasionally immense incommunicable except to fighters who have been

149
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,320
Speaker 11: as good, or to women who have gone through every

150
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 11: minute of an anglish filled birth, experiences which are finally

151
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,839
Speaker 11: mysterious like men who climb mountains. It's an exercise of

152
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,240
Speaker 11: ego which becomes something like soul.

153
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 1: Ali, the People's Champ, possesses a depth of soul. This

154
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,240
Speaker 1: is evident in his convictions, yet it's glimpsed rarely by

155
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 1: the press at the time and the news cameras of

156
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 1: the day. However, this depth of soul does show up

157
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:17,079
Speaker 1: on film.

158
00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 12: A Lee was a master storyteller, particularly of his own life,

159
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 12: and that's what these hours of interviews portray.

160
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety six, the film When We Were Kings

161
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 1: won the Academy Award for Best Documentary. It was directed

162
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,440
Speaker 1: by Leon Gaest and documented the rumble and the Jungle

163
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 1: Championship fight between Ali and Foreman. The film also briefly

164
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,640
Speaker 1: presented the accompanying three day music festival known as Zaire

165
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 1: seventy four, and due to unforeseen circumstances, it took twenty

166
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,520
Speaker 1: two years to complete. The editor of this fight film

167
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 1: is Jeffrey Kusama Hinty.

168
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 12: Back in the nineteen nineties, I was a film editor,

169
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,920
Speaker 12: or specifically editing on video and I was introduced by

170
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,560
Speaker 12: mutual friend to Leon Guest, who said he had about

171
00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,800
Speaker 12: a week of work to finish off a film at

172
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 12: that time I think was called Zaire seventy four and

173
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 12: turned into at least a year of work and then

174
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,640
Speaker 12: kind of a lifetime of commitment and investigation.

175
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,280
Speaker 1: He's also the director of the film's unofficial follow up,

176
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 1: the two thousand and eight concert film Soul Power, which

177
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 1: focused on the three day music festival Zaire seventy four.

178
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,839
Speaker 12: I'm kind of the last person standing, you know, that

179
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,319
Speaker 12: actually knows what's there and has seen it all and

180
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,439
Speaker 12: has work through it. So it's a very fascinating and

181
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 12: privileged position to be in.

182
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,640
Speaker 1: Consequently, as the editor of one and director of the other,

183
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,840
Speaker 1: Jeff watched hundreds of hours of footage of Muhammad Ali

184
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 1: in the editing bay. Jeff marveled at how easily Ali

185
00:11:55,040 --> 00:12:00,120
Speaker 1: could transform his playful brilliance with language into a devastating weapon.

186
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 12: As mine moved as fast as his hands. It's fascinating.

187
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 12: His ability with language just brilliant.

188
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,880
Speaker 1: For instance, there's Ali's famous use of rhymes to mock

189
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,160
Speaker 1: his opponents and to hype up himself.

190
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 12: He'll replay the same sequence of I don't know what

191
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,200
Speaker 12: you call them, like taunts and putdowns and the rhymes,

192
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,680
Speaker 12: but he'll play those over time and refine them over time.

193
00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,719
Speaker 1: As Jeff watched all those many hours of footage, he

194
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,000
Speaker 1: grew mostly fascinated not with the showman but with the

195
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 1: lesser scene side of Ali those thoughtful, candid moments captured

196
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,920
Speaker 1: by the documentary film crews. But Jeff also liked when

197
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,440
Speaker 1: Ali was running down his opponents. Jeff couldn't help himself.

198
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: Ali was just so undeniably charismatic.

199
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,480
Speaker 12: He started watching Muhammad Ali really talk, not the short

200
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 12: pieces at one of scene.

201
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,040
Speaker 3: I mean, he's unbelievable.

202
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,520
Speaker 12: I mean it's literally electrifying, and he can go on

203
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 12: and he has more stamina speaking than there's film in

204
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 12: the camera.

205
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:02,920
Speaker 3: Right.

206
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,480
Speaker 1: The press at the time, love him or hate him,

207
00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,439
Speaker 1: were equally captivated by Muhammad Ali. How could they not be.

208
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,880
Speaker 13: I've been around a lot of famous people and they

209
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,880
Speaker 13: don't make the connection like Ali did.

210
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali is one of Gary Stromberg's favorite people he's

211
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:23,560
Speaker 1: ever known.

212
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 13: In fact, he's a hero of his I'm Gary Stromberg.

213
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,760
Speaker 13: I did the public relations for the festival in Sire.

214
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,079
Speaker 1: Being that Gary Stromberg is a legendary PR man. Naturally,

215
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,920
Speaker 1: he respects Ali as a self promoting pr machine. But

216
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 1: it's not Ali's hype that he finds heroic. Rather, it's

217
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,719
Speaker 1: the soul of Ali that Gary finds so compelling, specifically

218
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 1: how Ali's soul could shake up the world. This is

219
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,120
Speaker 1: also what motivated Gary to bring us this story to

220
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:54,719
Speaker 1: share with you.

221
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 13: We were flying somewhere to Africa with a entourage, Ali's entourage.

222
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,319
Speaker 13: We were in the airport and what he would do

223
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 13: in an airport, People become aware that he's there and

224
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 13: they would swarm to him and he would just stand

225
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,120
Speaker 13: there and he would sign autographs. He would let you

226
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 13: take a picture of him. He would stand there until

227
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 13: all the crowd dispersed. On this day, we were on

228
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,000
Speaker 13: a chartered flight and the guy that was in charge,

229
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 13: the road manager, said come on, we got to get going,

230
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,320
Speaker 13: We got to get on. Ali just wouldn't move. He

231
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 13: just stood there and waited for everybody to get what

232
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 13: it is that they wanted. And when we got on

233
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,760
Speaker 13: the plane, there was a reporter with us, and he

234
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,760
Speaker 13: sat next to Ali and asked him. He said, why

235
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,280
Speaker 13: do you do that? He said, do you really think

236
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 13: you need to do that? And Ali said, I do

237
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 13: it because I want to go to heaven. And the

238
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 13: reporter looked at him and said why. He said, do

239
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 13: you think that there's a chance that you're not going

240
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 13: to go to heaven? And Ali said, you never know.

241
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 1: That same doubt speaks to the depth of the soul

242
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: of Ali and how he connects to people, he needs

243
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,480
Speaker 1: to people and their love for him was always Ali's

244
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:00,480
Speaker 1: secret power.

245
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 3: Ali's as good as there is.

246
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 13: He knows how to work a room, knows how to

247
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 13: work a crowd, and that's something you don't You're not

248
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,000
Speaker 13: taught or you don't learn. It's something instinctive. So I've

249
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,120
Speaker 13: been an observer of that for many years in my

250
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,920
Speaker 13: PR career. And the big stars, the really the big

251
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 13: stars are just people who intuit that. Mick Jagger was

252
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,480
Speaker 13: one of the guy who really impressed me with that

253
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 13: ability that he just knew how to work the room

254
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 13: and what you give in terms of access and such

255
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,560
Speaker 13: to yourself. And Ali was just the best at that.

256
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 13: No didn't have to teach him a thing.

257
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 1: There was this horrifying image that often haunted Ali's dreams.

258
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,520
Speaker 1: This nightmare was spurred by a deep fear that Ali

259
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,960
Speaker 1: wrote about in his autobiography entitled The Greatest My Own Story.

260
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 14: True fighting was all that I had ever done, but

261
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 14: there was always something in me that rebelled against it.

262
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 14: There was the nightmare ima I always had of two

263
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,320
Speaker 14: slaves in the ring, like in the old slave days

264
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 14: on the plantations, with two of us big black slaves

265
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,320
Speaker 14: fighting almost on the verge of annihilating each other, while

266
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 14: the masters of smoking big cigars screaming and arguing us on.

267
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 4: Looking for the blood.

268
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 1: Ali could not separate his mythic achievements from the American past,

269
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: because this past was not so distant. When Ali shut

270
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 1: his eyes, he could still hear the braying, laughter, and

271
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 1: the barks of the slave owners. He feared he was

272
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 1: no different than the enslaved men of the past, whose

273
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,560
Speaker 1: bodies were used for amusement. Their strength exploited and profited from.

274
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 1: This same fear is at least partially what motivated his

275
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:52,920
Speaker 1: refusal of the draft. After Ali lost three and a

276
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 1: half years of his prime exiled from the ring as

277
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 1: a punishment for his protest of the Vietnam War, finally

278
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 1: won a victory in court. Judge Walter Mansfield heard an

279
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,719
Speaker 1: appeal in which Ali argued that when his boxing license

280
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 1: was stripped from him, it was a violation of his

281
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:18,160
Speaker 1: constitutional rights. The judge agreed. In fact, the judge found

282
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,400
Speaker 1: it curious that the New York Boxing Commission canceled Ali's

283
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,639
Speaker 1: boxing license due to his legal status as a draft protester. However,

284
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,680
Speaker 1: that same Boxing Commission didn't take issue with the legal

285
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 1: status of other licensed boxers, for instance, the many licensed

286
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,320
Speaker 1: boxers with long criminal rap sheets. Some had even done

287
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:43,000
Speaker 1: time for murder. The judge ruled in favor of Alis.

288
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,920
Speaker 1: On September twenty fourth, nineteen seventy, Muhammad Ali applied for

289
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 1: reinstatement of his boxing license. The New York Times was

290
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 1: tipped off and there to document what went down. The

291
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 1: paper reported that Ali was quote notably subdued and disinclined

292
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 1: to do any boasting, perhaps because Ali was still waiting

293
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 1: for the Supreme Court to rule on his draft case

294
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,360
Speaker 1: and decide whether or not he would remain a free man.

295
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,280
Speaker 1: But for now, there is one other truth shaping Ali's life.

296
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,880
Speaker 1: If he wants his title back, he'll have to fight

297
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 1: the new heavyweight champion of the world, Smokin' Joe Frasier,

298
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 1: the hell Raiser. On March eighth, nineteen seventy one, James

299
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 1: Brown plays a show at the Feigned Club Olympia. The

300
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 1: two thousand seat dance hall is a Parisian institution. Jazz

301
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 1: musicians like Billy Holliday and Ella Fitzgerald played the hall

302
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 1: in the fifties. In the sixties, Edith Pioff saved the

303
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: dance hall with a three month engagement. Now in the

304
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,639
Speaker 1: early seventies, the classic dance hall is still open and

305
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 1: still serving up the culture. This particular March night, the

306
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,880
Speaker 1: Olympia's vibrating with the sounds of James Brown's horn section.

307
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 1: The young shaggy haired French dance in time with the

308
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,920
Speaker 1: new sound funk music. James Brown's backing band, the Jabs,

309
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:26,280
Speaker 1: features its original lineup including Bootsy Collins and his brother

310
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,200
Speaker 1: Catfish Collins on the drums keeping the beat funky. On

311
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: the ones is the legendary John J. Bo Starks and

312
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,959
Speaker 1: on trombone there's band leader Fred Wessey.

313
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,680
Speaker 15: That's when Boosy was still in the band and we

314
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 15: did two shows at the Olympic Theater. It was so

315
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 15: well received our first time in Paris. I don't know,

316
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 15: I think it's james first time in Parish too, but

317
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 15: it was a great show.

318
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 1: James Brown not only plays this incredible two night gig,

319
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,439
Speaker 1: he records it for posterity to later be released as

320
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 1: a live alb with the title Love Coward Peace Live

321
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 1: at the Olympia, Paris, nineteen seventy one. It features classic

322
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: tracks such as Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved,

323
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,879
Speaker 1: and Soul Power.

324
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,399
Speaker 15: His shows were very tight and they were very well organized.

325
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 15: Everybody was on it. Everybody did that part exactly right,

326
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 15: concluded the lighting people and the found people, and the

327
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 15: show was absolutely magnificent.

328
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: Lola Love was a dancer for James Brown. She performed

329
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: with Fred Wesley, although she was not at that show

330
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 1: in Paris that night, but later on in this story,

331
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,200
Speaker 1: she'll travel with James Brown to Africa for the Zaire

332
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: seventy four concert. To this day, Lola Love still very

333
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 1: much remembers the first time she ever saw James Brown perform.

334
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 1: It was at the Apollo Theater in Harley, right around

335
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: this same time as his gig at the olymp in Paris.

336
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 9: My mother told me to see him at the Apollo,

337
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 9: and I'm like, I don't do lines. And every time

338
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 9: James came to the Apollo, he ranted the theater out,

339
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 9: and every show there were lines around the block.

340
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 1: But one day, Lola Love's patience is finally rewarded.

341
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 9: This one show that I went to, which was like

342
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 9: a twilight show before evening, but later in the afternoon

343
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 9: there was nobody online and I got to go in

344
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 9: and I saw the most amazing three ring circus I'd

345
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 9: ever seen any entertainer do. To the stage, right you

346
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 9: had the horns dancing and twirling their horns. And to

347
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 9: the left they had the most beautiful black dances I

348
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,160
Speaker 9: had ever seen, and those were the Mama Lou Park Dancers.

349
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 9: And center stage was the star attraction, mister James Brown, singing,

350
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 9: dropping to his knees, spinning. I had never seen anybody

351
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 9: dance like that.

352
00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 4: It was a.

353
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 15: Spectacle, That's what it was. Yes, Yeah, And I was

354
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 15: actually proud to be in that band.

355
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 7: You know.

356
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 15: The show kind of emulated him, you know, the show

357
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 15: was perfect.

358
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: The same night that James Brown was getting the folks

359
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: in Paris up on their feet, New York City was

360
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: also a buzz across the Atlantic. Muhammad Ali was about

361
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: to step into the ring against Joe Frasier for the

362
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: Fight of the Century. They were the two undefeated champs

363
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 1: and only one would leave that ring as the heavyweight

364
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: champion of the world. But this, this is the story

365
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 1: of the Rumble in the Jungle. Why are we talking

366
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 1: about the Fight of the Century. Well, for one simple reason.

367
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 1: You cannot understand what happens in that ring in Zaire

368
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 1: without first understanding why Muhammad Ali is the underdog going

369
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,360
Speaker 1: into his title fight against George Foreman. But you can't

370
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: understand that until you know how absolutely dominant George Foreman was.

371
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: And you can't really understand that until you know who

372
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser was as a heavyweight boxer and as a man.

373
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: He's like a measure for both fighters, because ultimately, these

374
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: three fighters Ali, Foreman, Fraser, the three gold medal Olympians

375
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 1: of the sixties, the three great heavyweight champions of the seventies.

376
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 1: Their stories are inseparable. For anyone paying attention to boxing

377
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: in the late sixties, soon as he steps onto the scene,

378
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: it's painfully obvious that Joe Fraser is the.

379
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 10: Most distinct not just of any heavyweight, but of any

380
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 10: fighter at any time. Fraser is a Philadelphia fighter, I mean,

381
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 10: great left hook, bob weave.

382
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser was always one of my father's favorite fighters,

383
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: well him and Sonny Liston. What can I say? My

384
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: pops likes the villains, the misunderstood champions. But to my

385
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: small ears, my Pops and his brothers, my uncles, they

386
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: always made Joe Fraser sound so much bigger than life,

387
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: which is ironic considering his size. Joe Fraser is famously

388
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: undersized as a heavyweight fighter. He stands just five foot eleven.

389
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: But for the man nickname Smokin Joe Fraser, height doesn't

390
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: matter because Joe Fraser possesses a will that just don't quit.

391
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: He was on Beauford, South Carolina, which is in the

392
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 3: low Country.

393
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: That's the coastal area land of the Gully Geechee people.

394
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,959
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser's father was a farmer.

395
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: He also worked as a manual laborer, but only had

396
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 3: one arm.

397
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: His father lost his left arm from a gunshot accident.

398
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: Young Joe Fraser worked the farm at his father's side,

399
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: and he he did the labor of a full grown man.

400
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 3: So when they were carrying any large thing, which they

401
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 3: did all the time, like bricks and whatever they were carrying,

402
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 3: Joe was always carrying with his left hand because his

403
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: dad had the right hand, so Joe had left. As

404
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: a result, Joe's left arms about three inches longer than

405
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 3: his right arm and twice as strong.

406
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: Not only that, when he was a boy, Joe Frazier's

407
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: left arm was broken by an angry hog. The arm

408
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: never did heal correctly. The result his left arm was

409
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: permanently half cocked.

410
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 3: His left hook would damn near kill a person.

411
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: Growing up on a farm in rural South Carolina, Joe

412
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: had to train himself. He knew he needed a heavy

413
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: bag to practice, so he gathered up canvas sackcloth so

414
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: that into a heavy bag and filled the sack with

415
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: a brick and Spanish moss from the live oaks on

416
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: the family farm. He overstuffed his homemade heavy bag until

417
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: it bulged. When he was done, he hung it from

418
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: a barn rafter. That's how Joe Fraser learned to punch.

419
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: Every day after school, every Saturday morning before he worked

420
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: on the family farm, even every Sunday after he came

421
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: home from church. Seven days a week, Joe Fraser was punching,

422
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: working his homemade heavy bag. Joe was never afraid of

423
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: hard work, but he sure did hate school work. One day,

424
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser stopped wasting his time and theirs. He dropped

425
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: out in the ninth grade.

426
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 7: I wasn't learning anything, just taking up space, and I

427
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 7: shouldn't want to take up space in that school.

428
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: Eventually, Joe moves north to Philadelphia, the city of Brotherly love.

429
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: It was a mecca for boxing in mid century America.

430
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: Family took him in and he found work in the slaughterhouses.

431
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 7: I used to tope them steels when I worked in

432
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 7: a Kosha slaughter house. Then I come to the gym

433
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 7: and clear everybody out.

434
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 3: On his lunch, he would beat a side of beef

435
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 3: he was working in the slaughterhouse. Okay, I got fifteen

436
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 3: minute break, Joe, and go there and beat up the

437
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 3: dam every day, which is where Rocket got that. Yeah,

438
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: beating the beef. That was Joe. That's how he trained.

439
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 3: And we know Sylvester Salon couldn't resist that. He said,

440
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 3: that's too perfect.

441
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: An undersized fighter from Philly, a blue collar hero who

442
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: was all heart, Joe Frasier was the real Rocky Balboa.

443
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: It didn't take long for Joe to become a rank

444
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: amateur boxer with a good record undefeated. He won the

445
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: Gold Gloves. Next year, he won it again, and again

446
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: the year after that, three times in a row.

447
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 4: In the ring.

448
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 7: It's me and you, baby, and I'm gonna make sure

449
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 7: as you I don't even want to fight one round.

450
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 7: I want to put the guy away as soon as possible.

451
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: Next Joe Frasier qualified to join Team US SAY for

452
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: the sixty four Olympics in Tokyo. Like one of his

453
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: other boxing heroes, Cashes Clay, Joe Fraser was proud to

454
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: go and represent the USA there in Tokyo. Smokin' Joe

455
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: Fraser wins gold at the sixty four Olympics. When he

456
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: returns home from Japan, the boxing world takes one passing

457
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: glance at Joe Fraser and collectively says, man, no one's

458
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: interested in his future. Despite his successes, Joe Fraser's five

459
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: foot eleven frame meant he was ignored and undervalued by

460
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: the world of professional boxing. But there was one man

461
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: who did believe in Fraser, the trainer Yank Durham. He

462
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: pushes him, and pushes him. He pushes Joe right to

463
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: the top of the heap of contenders for the heavyweight

464
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: championship title. Yank Durham teaches Joe if he keeps moving,

465
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: popping up to punch a man, then he can pick

466
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: his moments and unload his devastating left hook. One clean

467
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: shot from Joe Fraser's left and it's lights out. After

468
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: Muhammad ad Lei's heavyweight boxing title is stripped from him.

469
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, the New York State Boxing Commission

470
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: decides to hold a single elimination match to crown a

471
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: new champion. They planned a gala event at Madison Square Garden.

472
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: The date is set March fourth, nineteen sixty eight. Smoking

473
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser, the undefeated contender, steps into the ring to

474
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: face his old Olympics trial nemesis, the three hundred pound

475
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: beast of a boxer, Buster Mathis. The title fight lasts

476
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: eleven rounds. When it's over, the referee doesn't even bother

477
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: to count Mathis out. It's that obvious. Nearly two years later,

478
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: on February sixteenth, nineteen seventy, again at Madison Square Garden,

479
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser faced his rival heavyweight champion Jimmy Ellis, another

480
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: bout for a different heavyweight championship belt. He wins that

481
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: one too. Joe Fraser becomes undisputed heavyweight champion of the World,

482
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: as one newspaper reported, and a rare burst of exiberance,

483
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser leaped into the air in the middle of

484
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: the Madison Square Garden ring and shouted. But Joe Fraser

485
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: was not free, and Joe Fraser will not be free.

486
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: Not as long as there's an unbeaten former champ on

487
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: the scene.

488
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 4: Where's Joe Fraser?

489
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 6: Where's the white folks champion? When I get him in

490
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 6: a ring, you'll see there'll be no contest.

491
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: The damnable fact was Joe Fraser just wasn't as charming

492
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: as Muhammad Ali. It wasn't his fault. I mean, the

493
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: brother just tried to be a good America and a

494
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: proud black man. He was never trying to be a superhero,

495
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: not like Ali. Thus, in their battle of hype and

496
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: pre fight press, Joe never really stood a chance. On

497
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: March seventeenth, nineteen seventy one, the New York Daily News

498
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: reported on the state of the champ Joe Fraser.

499
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 16: Two days before he was to defend his undisputed heavyweight

500
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 16: championship for the first time. Joe Fraser walked through busy

501
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 16: downtown Detroit at high noon. Nobody recognized him. He wandered

502
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 16: into a department store, slipping and sliding through hordes of

503
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 16: lunch hour shoppers. Only one woman asked for his autograph.

504
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 16: No heavyweight champion in history has been pushed so far

505
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 16: into the background of public acceptance and recognition as has

506
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 16: Joe Fraser.

507
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: The strangest thing about the raw anger and violence that

508
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: electrified the famous Ali Fraser rivalry is the fact that

509
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: at one time the two men were close friends. Like

510
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: they would often hang out and take secret drives together.

511
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: According to Muhammad Ali's autobiography, the two fighters liked to

512
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: ride around together and beat her cars. They both figured,

513
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: who'd ever expect the two champs to be together, let

514
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: alone in such a crappy car. In the months just

515
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: before their first title bout, also known as the Fight

516
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: of the Century, Muhammad Ali and Joe Fraser take a

517
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: road trip from Philadelphia to New York, and this particular

518
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 1: trip was special. It's autumn nineteen seventy. Joe Fraser drives.

519
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: The two undefeated champs are in Fraser's new gold Cadillac.

520
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: I love that car.

521
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 5: Rd I would have killed to being in the back

522
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 5: seat when listening to those guys, But I have. The

523
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 5: next best thing is, you know, the recording of the conversation.

524
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: That's right. Ali records the road trip and later publishes

525
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: the entire transcript in his autobiography, exactly as it happened.

526
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: Of course, the two fighters talk about boxing and their rivalry.

527
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 5: There's just two young guys having a good time, giving

528
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 5: each other a hard time, you know, drawing over who's

529
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 5: the best.

530
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: Their road trip also provides valuable insights into both fighters.

531
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 5: Frasius really being kind and loving and offering Ali money

532
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 5: and promising him a job in his gym, and you know,

533
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 5: not in a condescending way at all. I think he

534
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 5: just recognizes that Ali is, you know, going through an

535
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 5: extraordinarily difficult time and he's not allowed to box. And

536
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 5: it's just like a couple of brothers. And I mean

537
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 5: that in like the sibling way.

538
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: Now, unfortunately we don't have the actual recording, but we

539
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: did get our actors to play out a few moments

540
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: from the transcript that Ali published in his autobiography, The

541
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: Greatest My Own Story.

542
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 14: I gotta admit you good that I'm the fastest, the

543
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 14: fastest in the history of.

544
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: The whole world. Maybe maybe moving away, but I'm the

545
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 4: fast just moving in.

546
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: At one point, Ali recites a poem he's written about

547
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser. He reads it as if Joe is not

548
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: right there driving the car, Joe's.

549
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 14: Gonna come out smoking, and I ain't gonna be joking.

550
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 14: I'll be picking and poking, pouring water on his smoking.

551
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 14: This might shock Animazia, but I'll retire Joe Fraser.

552
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: Both men laugh. Their rivalry is good natured for now.

553
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: Later on, during their joy ride, Fraser confesses to Ali

554
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: how he was a big time hero to him. As

555
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: Fraser came up, I admit.

556
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 7: He's some kind of inspiration for me. Won't anybody I

557
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 7: ever come in contact with? Every time I see you

558
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 7: running off at the mouth, You know what I said.

559
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 7: I just said to myself, Well, Joe, look this guy

560
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 7: can back up what he says. You gotta do just

561
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 7: a little more. When I go on the road, I

562
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 7: run a little harder because I know I want to

563
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 7: be able to meet you one of these days.

564
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: Smoking, Joe also admits to Ali how much he motivates him.

565
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 7: I tell myself, the only way I know I can

566
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 7: meet Cassius Clayton is to keep on winning, keep on

567
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 7: knocking these cats out.

568
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 4: You know I had to get to you now here

569
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 4: I am.

570
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: He's done the impossible, He's become the heavyweight champion of

571
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: the world and he still can't face Ali. Why because

572
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: at this point, the people's champ is exiled from boxing. Meanwhile,

573
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: Joe Frazier does all he can to advocate for Ali

574
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: to have his boxing license restored.

575
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 7: They should allow you to fight, you know what I mean.

576
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 7: Taking your license away like they did wasn't justice. Fighting

577
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 7: was your way of making a living for the family

578
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 7: like me, with a family like yours. You know, you

579
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 7: gotta have enough support for them. Believe what you want

580
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 7: to believe in. I'm one hundred percent with you on that.

581
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 7: You got a whole lot of people out there to

582
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 7: believe worse than you. If they give you a license,

583
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 7: I'll fight you any time, any place, but I prefer

584
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 7: should be here in the United States.

585
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: A little later, Fraser tries to floor it in his Cadillac.

586
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: He wants to race a plane landing at Newark Airport

587
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: just to see if he can beat it. But Ali

588
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: tells Joe.

589
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 15: Say slow up, slow up.

590
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 4: You're gonna get a ticket for driving this fast. Wouldn't

591
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 4: that be something?

592
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: You getting a ticket and I'm ride with you.

593
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 14: I'd say I jumped into your car and Joe Fraser

594
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 14: got scared and drove like crazy make news all over

595
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 14: the world.

596
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: Publicity is never far from Ali's mind, and so as

597
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: the two men drive on, they discuss their public images.

598
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: Ali tells Joe he needs to work on his Jesus Frasier,

599
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: and he gives him some advice on how to build

600
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: up his image as the champ, how to dress, how

601
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: to comport himself, how to be more than just a

602
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 1: boxing champ.

603
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 14: I had the title, but just because I had cars,

604
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 14: was living easy. It was on Johnny Carson and Merv Griffin.

605
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 14: Didn't keep me from seeing my people out there catching hell.

606
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 14: And I wanted to get out there and stand up

607
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 14: and talk to him. Even on the garbage cans, I

608
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 14: like to go around.

609
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 16: And talk to him.

610
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: Toward the end of their car ride, the New York

611
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: City skyline looms overhead. This is when things change between

612
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: the two fighters. As they drive into the city through

613
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: those steel and glass caverns, Ali notes how the folks

614
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: on the streets can see them. The fighters now need

615
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: to think about their public images.

616
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 14: We don't want to be seeing too much together, you know.

617
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we buddies. That'll be bad for the gate. Yeah.

618
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 4: Ain't nobody gonna pay nothing to see too buddies.

619
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: Ali desperately wants Joe to be his friend. He even

620
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: says as much in his autobiography.

621
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 14: I wanted to be known as a freedom fighter, but

622
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 14: I still wanted comrades, close friends who did the same

623
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 14: work I did, felt the same way I did. Buddy's

624
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 14: equally strong and dedicated, who would fight alongside me for blacks.

625
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 14: I wanted a buddy like Joe.

626
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: After their road trip is over, the two fighters pull

627
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: over the brand new gold Cadillac. They get out in Manhattan,

628
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: and there on the sidewalk, the two champs entertain the

629
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: passers by right there on West fifty second Street. Ali

630
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: of course wants them to go over to Times Square

631
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: and really cause a commotion hype up their fight, but

632
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: they never do. Instead, Ali watches their chance to be

633
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: comrades disappear in a New York minute.

634
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 5: Now, Olli gets out of the car and he's mobbed

635
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 5: as he was almost ebrardy wet.

636
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: While Ali signs autographs for his fans, the head wait

637
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: champion of the World, Joe Fraser, waits off to the side.

638
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: No one recognizes Fraser like he's some average Joe. He

639
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: just watches the people love Ali on the flip side.

640
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: As Ali scribbles autographs to his adoring fans, he mostly

641
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: just wants to get back in the car with his friend,

642
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: but he can't because now he's staring into the eyes

643
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: of his rival, smoking Joe Fraser.

644
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 14: He was standing at the edge of the crowd, his

645
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 14: cowboy hat cocked on the side of his head. But

646
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 14: a chilly feeling went through me when our eyes met.

647
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 15: His look was that of a.

648
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 14: Traveling gunfighter who had come into a town to appraise

649
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 14: the fastest gun. There was no envy or jealousy in

650
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 14: his look, only a cold, methodical appraisal. For he knew

651
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 14: that only when he had defeated me in the ring,

652
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 14: with the world really recognized him as the champion. He

653
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 14: nodded his head slowly and got back into the call.

654
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 14: Whatever chance we had being buddies, being close intimate friends,

655
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 14: it was gone.

656
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 13: They hate each other at times.

657
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 5: They're constantly in competition, just like you know I am

658
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 5: with my brothers. But there's love there, and that love

659
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 5: seems unbreakable. But turned out maybe it wasn't unbreakable.

660
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: Before the two fighters step in the ring, the story

661
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 1: of the Ali Fraser fight becomes a highly charged metaphor

662
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: for the culture war dividing the United States. The fighters,

663
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: two black bodies, become both the weapons of war and

664
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 1: the battlefields, and in order to hype up the expected fight,

665
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: Ali plays into all of it. He starts to call

666
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser the great White Hope. Ali jokingly refers to

667
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser as an uncle Tom. Before the laughing press,

668
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: Ali reminds them Joe Fraser is President Nixon's boy.

669
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 14: The everyday black see me as a man who stood

670
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 14: alone against everything they had to fight every day what

671
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 14: the white man does to them, the army and everything else.

672
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 14: If Fraser whoops me, he may get a call from

673
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 14: Richard Nixon. I don't think Richard Nixon will phone me

674
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 14: if I win.

675
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 4: Now.

676
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: This may have been hype to Ali, but to Joe Fraser,

677
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: Ali's attacks feel real as steel. For instance, Ali likes

678
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: to flatten his nose, make dumb eyes, and talk in

679
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: an exaggerated slave voice. That's his impression of Joe Fraser.

680
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 1: And since it's a black man making the racist joke

681
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: about another black man, the white sports writers feel safe

682
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 1: to howl with laughter.

683
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,720
Speaker 3: That's why it was so hard to stick with Ali,

684
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: because he does it in front of white people and

685
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: then they share the laugh. That's not acceptable for.

686
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: Many black Americans listening to what Ali says about Joe Fraser.

687
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 3: It feels like Ali is almost like winking winking eye

688
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 3: to white people. That was always offensive to me.

689
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: It's certainly shocking for us today to hear the man

690
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: called the People's champ reinforce the same racism and white

691
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: supremacy he first learned back in Louisville. It was also

692
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: shocking at the time. Things only get worse once the

693
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: two boxers officially signed their contract to fight.

694
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 3: When he signed the fight Joe, he started attacking him.

695
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: He went right in and start calling him ugly, youo gorilla.

696
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 3: He started having little patoyal gorillas that he was punching

697
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 3: into things. And Joe was actually amazed.

698
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: Because remember when Ali was in exile.

699
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 3: Joe helped him more than anybody else.

700
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: Specifically, Joe Fraser loaned Ali money, He supported Ali and

701
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: his family. He testified in US Congress on Ali's behalf.

702
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: Joe Fraser personally asked President Nixon to help Ali get

703
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: his boxing license back, and this is what he receives

704
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: in return from Ali.

705
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did all this for you, and you're gonna

706
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,479
Speaker 3: make fun of me and one of my kids on TV.

707
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 3: They got to go to school every day and have piece.

708
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 3: Your dad's a gorilla. He's using a very very serious,

709
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 3: stereotypical insult that you can't do well.

710
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: Ali later says he was just promoting their fight. My

711
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: pops is quick to argue he.

712
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 3: Can promote the fight without calling him a gorilla.

713
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: That's beyond However, whatever would hurt the most, that's what

714
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: Ali used.

715
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 5: It's one of the really sad parts of Ali's story

716
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 5: that he keeps falling relying on these racist tropes to

717
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 5: try to downgrade his opponents, to say that they're not

718
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 5: black enough.

719
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: He does it to Sunny Listen. He does it to

720
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: Joe Frasier over and over again.

721
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 3: How you gonna make Joe Frasier the enemy of blackness?

722
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 15: You know?

723
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 3: And he did. How you gonna make sign listen to

724
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: anemy of blackness?

725
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 4: Why does he need to do that?

726
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 5: I wonder what it reflects about his own feelings of inferiority.

727
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 10: It's something something that bears mentioned because as much as

728
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 10: we love Ali in retrospect, he would do whatever he

729
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 10: had to and against a lot of black opponents. He

730
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 10: was as ugly and racial as he had to be

731
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 10: to get under their skin.

732
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: Yet it works to the fullest extent of Ali's cruel intention.

733
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: Joe Fraser, He'd be almost a shame to admit how

734
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 3: much that hurt him.

735
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: When he does speak up for himself, which is rare,

736
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: Fraser's hurt, pride comes through in his words. Note he

737
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: still calls Ali by his old name, Cashus clay Well.

738
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 7: He believes different than me. He believes, muscle, that black

739
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 7: and white should be treated different. A lot of what

740
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 7: he stands for and says is true. I know that,

741
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 7: but I don't want to live off hate. He got

742
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 7: three kids, I got five. They don't need no more problems.

743
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 7: But that don't make me no tomb. I ain't no

744
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 7: white hope. I'm only a hope for my kids. I'm

745
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 7: just doing a job.

746
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: In his autobiography, Muhammad Ali writes about him calling Joe

747
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: Fraser a gorilla and and uncle Tom and the great

748
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 1: white Hope, and he minimizes all of it as quote

749
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: having fun.

750
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 14: Because while I picked at him and made fun of

751
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 14: him in public, underneath I truly admired him. He had

752
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,479
Speaker 14: the heart of a black fighter. He knew he wasn't

753
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 14: free to go where he wanted to say what he

754
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 14: wanted about race, politics, religion because the fight bosses wouldn't

755
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 14: like it. He knew all that this was the kind

756
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 14: of buddy I needed, one that will go down with me,

757
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 14: walk the streets with me. Our families would know each other,

758
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 14: our children will grow up together.

759
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: Instead, he abuses that friend. The most painful irony of

760
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: Ali's racist jokes, He's a black man proclaiming a narrative

761
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: of liberation while making jokes that could have been borrowed

762
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: from a klansman. The author of the book The Rumble

763
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: and the Jungle, Lewis Ehrenberg, recalls all the psychic damage

764
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: done to Fraser by Ali, which foreshadowed the same damage

765
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: he'd later try to inflict on George Foreman, and I.

766
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 8: Think he came later to regret it, but he never

767
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 8: could personally express that regret. Ali was insensitive, and you know,

768
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 8: just was doing something beyond what was legitimate, even in boxing,

769
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 8: a brutal sport.

770
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: The secret to understanding Ali and his self mythologizing narrative

771
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: was how he conflated his victories with victories for Black America.

772
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: He believed he was Black America's true champion, and Ali

773
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: felt that his title fight against Joe Fraser would be

774
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: the indisputable evidence of his greatness. As Ali himself says.

775
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 14: I've been building up this fight since I was in exile.

776
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 14: It'll be the biggest fight in history, Greater than when

777
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 14: David fought Eliath, Greater than when Grant took Richmond, Greater

778
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 14: than when any two men ever fought each other on

779
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 14: the planet Earth.

780
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 3: I'll be whipping the people that took my title and

781
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: gave it to him.

782
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 1: When Joe Fraser and Muhammad Ali do finally step into

783
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: the ring for their title bout, both fighters are prepared

784
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: to die in order to beat the other. It means

785
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: that much, and that is why they call it the

786
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: fight of the century. Next time on Rumble, Ali got

787
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: all the cool people. I never fought someone with so

788
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: much drive. I have a new found respect for Joe.

789
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: He took everything Ali had. They put each other in

790
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 1: the hospital.

791
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 5: George Foreman was a great fighter.

792
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 10: You know, and he was a bit what everybody remembers

793
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 10: about Foremanism. Waving the American flag and the same Olympiad

794
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 10: Tommy Smith and John Carlos held up a black glove

795
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 10: Flix and the contrast could not have been more stark.

796
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 16: Rumble is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts.

797
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 16: Rumble is written and hosted by Zaron Burnett. The third

798
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 16: produced and directed by Julia chriscal Sound design and scoring

799
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 16: by Jesse Niswanger. Original music by Jordan Manley and t. J. Merritt.

800
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 16: Our senior producer is Amelia Brock. Series concept by Gary Stromberg.

801
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 16: Executive producers are Jason English, Sean ty Tone, Gary Stromberg,

802
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 16: Virginia Prescott, L C. Crowley, and Brandon Barr. Production manager

803
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 16: Daisy Church, fact checker Savannah Hughglee. Additional producing by Claire

804
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 16: Keating and John Washington. Legal services provided by Connoel Hanley PC.

805
00:48:54,480 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 16: Casting director Julia Chriscau. Episode three cast Abraham Amka, Muhammad Ali,

806
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 16: Johnny Mack as Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, Jonah Weston

807
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 16: as Norman Mahler, Arthur Dent as Joe Frasier, Julia Chriscau

808
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 16: as news reporter. Casting support services provided by Breakdown Express.

809
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 16: Special thanks to Lewis Ehrenberg. Check out his book Rumble

810
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 16: in the Jungle. It's a great resource. Also thanks to

811
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 16: Jonathan I for his book Ali a Life. We would

812
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 16: like to acknowledge our use of Muhammad Ali's autobiography, The

813
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 16: greatest to my own story. Co written by Richard Durham.

814
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 16: It's a wonderful resource and really helped us to shape

815
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 16: this narrative. And finally, thanks to Zaren's pops Zeke, who

816
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 16: grounds this material like no one else. If you like

817
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 16: the show, let us know, like subscribe, leave five star reviews.

818
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 16: It really helps. Also check out our show notes for

819
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 16: a full list of reference materials.