1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Show Dr josup. Do you expect me to talk? Oh? 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: This this isn't a standard interrogation. Inject him? Watch this now, 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: poison truth Cerro, None of the above. No, this is 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: something far more experimental. But perhaps a notorious secret agents 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: such as yourself has heard of induced neuroplasticity. What you're 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: talking of experimental neurotherapy drugs your math? Oh, neuroplasticity is 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: far more than that. Yes, yes, this, this sort of 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: treatment will soon revolutionize the way we deal with addictions 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: and brain disease. It will allow adults of any age 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: to learn new languages with the aptitude of a young child. 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: But that's not why I've injected you with it. No, 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: we've we've romanticized neuroplasticity. You see, we forget the importance 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: of neuro stability. As children, we have an amazing ability 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: to adapt to any environment, any language, were open to 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: the world. We're also open to trauma. But then everything 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: has to settle. We put aside those childish things and 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: we become by a man doctors, secret agents. What do 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,639 Speaker 1: you want from me? Why? I want to change your life? 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: Hans Rob the film Weight What what are you showing me? 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Jessup a YouTube playlist. Oh please, hours upon hours of 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: let's call it informative content from some of the platforms 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: leading personality No, not thish influencers. I'll tell you anything. 23 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: For medians, no commentates, unboxes. No. Welcome to Stuff to 24 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name is 26 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're gonna 27 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: be talking about another topic, sort of a follow up 28 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: from Robert's visit this year to the World Science Festival. 29 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about neuroplasticity. That's right. This, uh, 30 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: this particular panel that that I attended, and this one 31 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: is also available online. Will make sure there's a link 32 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: to the YouTube video on the landing page for this 33 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: episode Acceptable in your Mind dot com. Uh. The particular 34 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: panel was called Nuts and Bolts of Better Brains. It 35 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: was hosted by Guy mccon, neurosurgeon, neuroscientist, Alvero Pascal Leoni, neuroscientist, 36 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: uh Nim Tottenham developmental or psychologist, and Carlas Shots, a neuroscientist, 37 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 1: and they discussed neuroplasticity, which is something that we've we've 38 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: touched on on the show before, and I think a 39 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: lot of people have kind of a general concept of Yeah, 40 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: neuroplasticity is one of those words that I think has 41 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: suffered a lot of abuse in the press um because 42 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there are words that have a good meaning 43 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: in science, and there's nothing wrong with the concept itself. 44 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: But in today's neuroscience, neuroplasticity does have a meaning, and 45 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: it does have a useful meaning. But you see it 46 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: in a lot of hype and bs on the internet. Yeah, 47 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: Like I noticed, when when you do a search for 48 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: neuroplasticity you want to read things about it, you get 49 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: mostly content at one of two levels. Either content for 50 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: experts and neuroscientists, like actual scientific literature that the average 51 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: reader can't penetrate, and then you get also a whole 52 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: lot of hype and bs that is telling you about 53 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, about how you're going to revolutionize your 54 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: brain and you'll become like a child again and become 55 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: a master of your own abilities. Yeah, I mean it's 56 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: already become something of a buzzword, for instance, with with 57 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: certain uh like supplement manufacturers, and take this neuroplasticity vitamin Yeah, okay, thanks, 58 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: But but the neuroplasticity is a real thing. It is 59 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: you can think of it simply as the brain's ability 60 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: to adapt, and humans most incredible powers of neuroplasticity, especially 61 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: during the so called critical periods of early childhood. Yeah. 62 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: One of the things to think about this kind of 63 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: weird is um how well humans adapt to such different 64 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: life conditions. Like if you take most animals out of 65 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: the environment and condition conditions that they're best adapted to, 66 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: they don't do very well. There are some exceptions, but 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: most of the time an animal has evolved to have 68 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: certain instincts. It's got sort of like pretty hardwired behaviors. 69 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: It can live, you know, it can be born where 70 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: it is supposed to be born and live encountering the 71 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: kind of stimuli it would normally encounter, and you know, 72 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: it can do its thing that nature has shaped it for. 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: But humans can do all kinds of stuff. We can 74 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: live in the snow, we can live in the desert, 75 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: we can live in cities, we can live in it plans. 76 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: We can be farmers, we can be doctors. We can 77 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: do so many different kinds of things with our brains. 78 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: And there are no other animals like this really. Yeah, 79 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: the in the talk, they brought up the example of 80 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: the loggerhead turtle as an example of a creature that 81 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: is not a paragon of neuroplasticity but neuro stability. A 82 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: creature that, upon birth is just ready to go and 83 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: do a very specific thing exceedingly well in a very 84 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: specific environment. But if you put some major obstacles in 85 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: that turtle's way, the turtle probably would not find a 86 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: way to adapt to those obstacles and survive around them. 87 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: It would probably just not survive to adulthood, right, I 88 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: mean in the turtle is a good example of that, 89 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: because I mean with with with various sea turtles, we've 90 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: seen examples of how just artificial lighting can screw up 91 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: a very particular approach to going about its life cycle. Yeah, 92 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: but so your brain. One of the reasons your brain 93 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: is so powerful compared to the brains of animals is 94 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: that it can be adapted to so many different scenarios 95 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: and so many different types of tasks depending on what 96 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: sorts of environments you're exposed to when you're very young. Yeah, 97 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: language is of course one of the great examples, and 98 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: I think everyone has at least some awareness of this. 99 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: Certainly anybody out there who's a parent has has read 100 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: about this or experience this with their own children. Is 101 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: that during certain critical periods, they have an amazing ability 102 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: to not only pick up a language, but to just 103 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: perfectly pick it up, to just breathe it in and 104 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: and and become fluent in it without without any of 105 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: the challenges that are generally encountered by adults trying to 106 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: learn a second language. I mean, one of the ways 107 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: that it's often put is that with great effort, and 108 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: adult can learn to speak a language they don't already speak, 109 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: but they will pretty much always speak it with an accent. 110 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: Children can learn to speak all kinds of and can 111 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: learn to speak multiple languages at the same time, and 112 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: can generally learn to speak them without an accent. But then, 113 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: of course it goes beyond this too, because there there's 114 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: so many other things that are being absorbed during childhood, 115 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: you know, the social norms, cultural norms, just how one 116 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: interacts with your environment, and that has enabled humans to 117 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: thrive all over the world, you know, obviously with technological 118 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: aids in many cases, but still it it underlies the 119 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: diversity and success of our species. Then again, there are 120 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: some reasons to think that you don't want the brain 121 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: to be sort of infinitely plastic, right, because if we 122 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: consider plasticity the ability of the brain to adapt to 123 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: new scenarios and change itself to work better, you also 124 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: need cases where the brain knows what to do and 125 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: does it instead of keeps being influenced and changing right right, 126 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: and knows where to where to where to stop. You 127 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: know what, what avenues to stop exploring because basically what 128 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: happens is their neural circuitry branches out to master the 129 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: skills necessary for survival. And then uh, and then after 130 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: it does this, after you know, some of the branches 131 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: have been prune back. Uh. You can think of it 132 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: like a you know, like one of those shrub sculptures 133 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: from the Shining from you know, the original novel. If 134 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: you've read that, you know you you you prune everything down, 135 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: cut it away until it's the appropriate shape. Yeah. It's 136 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: an interesting thing that the speakers in this event talk 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: about is that the idea of pruning in childhood, how 138 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: it starts off with way more connections than it needs, 139 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: and then through this process it sort of pairs back 140 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: the stuff that says, Okay, it looks like I'm not 141 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: going to need that in life. We can just sever 142 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: all those Yeah, I mean it kind of matches up 143 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: with the cliche of the child who can grow up 144 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: to be anything, right, which you know, obviously any given 145 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: child can't grow up to be absolutely anything. But there 146 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: is a there. There is a lot of room for 147 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: specialization and and and and diverse growth there. Yeah, we 148 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: have natural tendencies and natural potentials, and some of that 149 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: is genetic. But then also we were extremely adaptable as children, right. 150 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: But then of course in neural stability has to kick in. 151 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: That's important too, a necessary balance in the human brain. Um, 152 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: you're going to grow up and become this thing we 153 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: call an adult. But what if I am Peter Pan 154 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: and I don't want to grow up and be an 155 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: adult because growing up and being in a delt and 156 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: having neuro stability limits my potential. What if I decide 157 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to be somebody who only speaks English. 158 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: I want to be somebody who speaks Chinese and speaks 159 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: French and speaks the click languages. And you know what 160 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: if I want to speak all those languages without an accent, 161 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: why can't I do that. Yeah, I want to have 162 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: infinite potential again. I want to go back to I 163 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: want to be able to grow up to be anything. 164 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: You know. I think we've all had moments like that 165 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: where we we we we look at where we are 166 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: and we think, well, if I could go back and 167 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: open myself up to this language or this ability or 168 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: what have you, then I would love to do that, 169 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: you know, or or just the idea that nobody wants to. 170 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: You don't want to feel stagnant. You want to feel 171 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: like you're continuing to grow and uh and you know, 172 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: keep up with the young ones. And so scientists have 173 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: continually looked to possible ways of essentially rewidening the doorways 174 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: of of neuroplasticity. That's one of the metaphors it's often used, right, 175 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: is that when you're a child out the door is open, 176 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: the window is open for you to grasp onto anything. 177 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: But then depending on who's throwing the metaphor round, you 178 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: can say, well it closes when you become an adult, 179 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: but it doesn't really closes. It gets sort of like 180 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: it gets almost closed, right, it narrows, And so we've 181 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: looked to ways to to widen it in adulthood, and 182 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: and it goes beyond this mirror um, you know, intellectual 183 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: vanity as well. Right, it's not just Peter Pan saying 184 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: I want this, I want that. There's also the idea 185 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: of treating problems in the adult brain by reintroducing plasticity, right, 186 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: it would it would give us a way to treat 187 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: various neurodegenerative disorders, anxiety, depression, even post traumatic stress disorder. 188 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: Like anytime there's a there's a potential for for growth 189 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: and change, positive growth and change in the brain to 190 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: help with a given condition. Neuroplasticity is often brought up 191 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: as a as a potential cure. But it's a challenge 192 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: to do this sort of thing. As a Columbia University 193 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: develop antal psychologist Dr Nim Totenham, who we were referenced already, 194 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: as she stated in the in that World Science Festival discussion, 195 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: the brain actually extends, expends a lot of energy to 196 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: keep critical periods from reopening. Yeah, we there there seems 197 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: to be some logic underlying this, this move the evolution 198 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: took right, it says, you know, you don't stay a 199 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: plastic child forever. At some point the brain needs to 200 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: figure out what to be and be that right. And 201 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons we're calling this episode the 202 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: Dark Side of neuroplasticity. Not that neuroplasticity he necessarily has 203 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: this deep, dark underbelly, but the sort of public awareness 204 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: tends to lean so heavily towards neuroplastics is just an 205 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: absolute good. I want as much of it as I 206 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: can get. We want to counter the hype. Neuroplasticity is 207 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: a good thing, but it's also not in uh, it's 208 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: not a good thing in every possible case, in every 209 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: possible sense. Right, And towards the end of the episode, 210 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: Will will speculate a little bit and look at some 211 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: some speculation from experts about some of the possible pitfalls 212 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: could be. What are some and even what are some 213 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: of the black mirror esque possibilities in a world full 214 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: of neuroplasticity inducing drugs? Yeah, now the question about these drugs, though, 215 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: is still wide open. I mean it's sort of uh. 216 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: I hate to use the metaphor the wild West. What's 217 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: a better metaphor for an arena in which there is 218 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: still much much new ground being forged? Welcome to the 219 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: jungle Baby. How about some spelunking. We're spelunking. Yeah, those 220 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: are close confines, though, I guess okay, I think I 221 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: think wild West is still pretty good. Well whatever it is. 222 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we're still trying to figure out what kinds 223 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: of drugs might do this, what side effects they might have, 224 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: if they are effective at doing it, And we'll talk 225 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: more later in the episode about what some of these 226 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: specific drugs might be. Yeah, because to master neuroplus this day, 227 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: we're going to have to establish the molecules that close 228 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: the doors. I mean, the thing is, it is possible 229 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: to extend critical periods and manipulate them, and experts do, 230 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: in fact think that we'll one day be able to 231 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: do this with a pill, with some sort of medication. 232 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: So it's not a question of of if. It's a 233 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: question of when the groundwork is already being laid for this. Uh, 234 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: it's just how are we gonna be ready for it 235 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: when it happens. Well, I think we should take a 236 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: quick break and then when we come back we will 237 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: discuss a few things about the history of the idea 238 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: of neuroplasticity. Than alright, we're back. So Charles Darwin actually 239 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: offered some thoughts about how the brain changes in response 240 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: to the environment. In his book The Descent of Man, 241 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: which published in eighteen seventy four, and though we should 242 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: note that he did not use the term plasticity, he 243 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: did sort of write about the idea of of the 244 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: brain adapting. He wrote, quote, I have shown that the 245 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: brains of domestic rabbits are considerably reduced in bulk in 246 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: comparison with those of the wild rabbit or hair, and 247 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,599 Speaker 1: this may be attributed to their having been closely confined 248 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: during many generations, so that they have exerted their intellect, instincts, senses, 249 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: and voluntary movements. But little uh note that he's imagining 250 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: this adaptation of the brain taking place over multiple generations 251 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: through inheritance, which is very different from the kind of 252 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: plasticity that we're talking about, which takes place within a 253 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: single body within a single lifetime. But he is at 254 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: least offering an image they're of saying like, Okay, maybe 255 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: the brain can kind of be molded to what it 256 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: best does given its environmental circumstances. Right if you if 257 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: you're a wild hair, and you need to be crafty 258 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: and wily and use all your senses to survive out 259 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: in the brush. Uh, you you will grow these bulky brains. 260 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: But if you're a domestic hair and all you do 261 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: is sit around and get fed, then you don't need 262 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: all that stuff and the brain will adapt. This touches 263 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: on a fact that we've discussed before, and that is 264 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: that that the that the brain like evolution is a 265 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: miser and that's cheap. Yeah, it's it's cheap. It wants 266 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: the most economic model for functionality. It is. It is 267 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: the Ebenezer Scrooge of the body. No, the whole body 268 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: is cheap. Actually, you know it makes sense. You don't 269 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: want wasting energy in an environment where energy is hard 270 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: to come by. Living in a world of technology and abundance. Uh, 271 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, we should stop to think, how, you know, 272 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: if if you have food to eat, if you're not 273 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: wondering where your next meal comes from, you should think 274 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: about how lucky you are. But you should also think 275 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: about how, in many ways your body and the bodies 276 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: of every other creature in the world, we're sort of 277 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: designed for scenarios where you would be constantly living on 278 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: the edge of starvation. But back to neuro plasticity. So 279 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,479 Speaker 1: the term plasticity emerged from the work of American psychologist 280 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: William James who lived eighteen forty two to nineteen ten, 281 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: and James defined it the following way. He said, it's 282 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: quote the possession of a structure weak enough to yield 283 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: an influence, but strong enough not to yield all at once. Yeah, 284 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: I mean that makes sense. It's ideal for a young 285 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: child to be open to their environment and not so 286 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: open that they're just completely overwhelmed. Right, So I want 287 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: to read a quote from William James from his from 288 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: his seminal work on psychology, where he started deposit that 289 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: the brain might have some kind of might have some 290 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: kind of like changeable structure. So he says, quote, if 291 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: habits are due to the plasticity of materials to outward agents, 292 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: we can immediately see to what outward influences, if to any, 293 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: the brain matter is plastic, not too mechanical pressures, not 294 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: to thermal changes, not to any of the forces to 295 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: which all the other organs of our body are exposed. 296 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: For nature has so blanketed and wrapped the brain about 297 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: that the only impressions that can be made upon it 298 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: are through the blood on the one hand, and the 299 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: sensory nerve roots on the other. And it is to 300 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: the infinitely attenuated currents that pour in through these latter 301 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: channels that the hemispherical cortex shows itself to be so 302 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: peculiarly susceptible. The currents, once in, must find a way out. 303 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: In getting out, they leave their traces in the paths 304 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: which they take. The only thing they can do, in short, 305 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: is to deepen old paths or to make new ones. 306 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 1: And the whole plasticity of the brain sums itself up 307 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: in two words when we call it an organ in 308 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: which currents pouring in from the sense organs make with 309 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: extreme facility paths which do not easily disappear. For, of course, 310 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: a simple habit, like every other nervous event, the habit 311 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: of snuffling, for example, or putting one's hands into one's 312 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: pockets or biting one's nails, is mechanically nothing but a 313 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: reflex discharge, and its anatomical substratum must be a path 314 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: in the system. The most complex habits, as we shall 315 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: presently see more fully, are from the same point of view, 316 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: nothing but concatenated discharges of the nerve centers, due to 317 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: the presence there of systems of reflex paths so organized 318 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: as to wake each other up successively, the impression produced 319 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: by one muscular contraction serving as a stimulus to provoke 320 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: the next, until a final impression inhibits the process and 321 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: closes the chain. So that was very forward thinking on 322 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: William James's part. He's so, he's got a very rudimentary 323 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: nineteenth century understanding of brain function here, but it does 324 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: get some some interesting basic insights right. One of them 325 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: is that habits or tendencies of the brain consist of 326 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: a kind of reinforcing of pathways of activities. Another is 327 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: that complex brain functions are built out of many less 328 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: complex brain functions happening together in sequence. Another is that 329 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: the potential and predispositions of an individual brain like your brain, 330 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: can be changed based on repeated interaction with chemicals in 331 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: the blood or with the data of the senses. And 332 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: that last part is just as a tangent one of 333 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: those utterly mundane facts that I often have to stop 334 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: and force myself to be amazed by over and over again, Like, 335 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: think about this. It sounds kind of stupid to say, 336 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: but by making acoustic vibrations in the air with my 337 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: mouth that you can hear or by like drawing a 338 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: picture on a chalkboard and putting it in front of 339 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: your eyes. I can literally change the physical configuration of 340 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: your brain. I make changes inside your skull by doing 341 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: things you can see in here. Isn't that bizarre? Yeah? 342 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: I mean if you and if you extend it to 343 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: written language, you can think, oh, well, somebody who wrote something, uh, 344 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: inscribed something down a thousand, two thousand, three thousand years ago. 345 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: They can speak across all those uh, those dead millennia, 346 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: and they can speak right to our brain and make 347 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: changes in it. It's unbelievable. Now. I mentioned earlier that 348 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: the term plasticity in the context of neuroscience had been 349 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: used to mean a lot of different things. There was 350 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: one particular paper I looked at about this by Giovanni 351 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: Berluki and Henry book Tool from two thousand nine and 352 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: Experimental Brain Research, and they talk about how the term 353 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: plasticity has been used over the past century to refer 354 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: to quote changes in neural organization, which may account for 355 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: various forms of behavioral modifiability, either short lasting or enduring, 356 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: including maturation, adaptation to a mutable environment, specific and unspecific 357 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: kinds of learning, and compensatory adjustments in response to functional 358 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: losses from aging or brain damage. So that that's a 359 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: lot of different meanings encompassed in the idea of plasticity, 360 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: but it does sort of apply to all of those, 361 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: so it's subject to generalization. But then also is sort 362 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: of uh is a turn It sort of refers to 363 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: general change in the brain. Yeah, a kind of adaptation 364 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: that has come to be associated with pressures put on 365 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: the brain from the environment. Right, So, with modern techniques, 366 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: we've discovered that the way these pathways are forged and 367 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: reinforced in the brain depends largely on the crucial element 368 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: of the synapps or you know, the bridge of space 369 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: that connects to nerve cells and allows impulses to pass 370 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: between the cells. And in eighteen three, the Italian neuropsychiatrist 371 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: Eugenio Tanzi first proposed that the basis of practiced based 372 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: learning and associative memory was these connections between nerve cells 373 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: in the brain. Because Tanzi knew that there are other 374 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: scientists who had observed the slowing of the passage of 375 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: nerve impulses through the gray matter in the brain, and 376 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: so he hypothesized that maybe what's going on in that 377 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: slow down is that there's difficulty for the impulses to 378 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: cross the gaps between neurons, these gaps that we now 379 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: call synapses or synaptic fissures. And based on that assumption, 380 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: Tansi argued that the way the brain adapts, the way 381 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: it learns through practice and creates associations between things, the 382 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: way it sort of enacts its plastic potential is by 383 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: a kind of exercise. When you perform a repetitious activity 384 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: in the brain, the same pathways of neurons repeatedly communicate 385 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: with each other, and by doing this you cause a 386 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: kind of hypertrophy or strengthening of the connections between those 387 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: specific neurons. The more you do a certain thing in 388 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: the brain, the easier than that thing becomes to do 389 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: in the brain. And then the next year, in eighteen 390 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: ninety four, the Spanish neuroscientists Santiago Ramonikahal, who I've thought 391 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: before we should do a whole episode on this guy. 392 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: Perhaps he also speculated that learning was based on the 393 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: creation and strengthening of connections between neurons. I feel like 394 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: this is something that has been I think over the years, 395 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: it's just been so well demonstrated or not really demonstrated, 396 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: but illustrated with animations and and uh and and art 397 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: that I have it like well ingrained in my head. 398 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: Like when people talk start talking about synapses firing, I 399 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: picture it. And maybe I also kind of think of 400 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: it in terms of of playing an instrument, like the 401 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: physical act of playing an instrument, of linking um, you 402 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: know of finger movements on say a trumpet or French 403 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: more and to the note that you're playing, and then 404 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: linking those in order to create uh, the notes in 405 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: a particular tune, which of course is both literally a 406 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: synaptic learning exercise but also kind of an illustration of 407 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: what's going on, like making this, connecting it to that 408 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: and then leading onto the next note. Yeah, we we've 409 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: learned this in the modern age, and so it's easy 410 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: for us to picture, but we should appreciate how how 411 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: interesting of an insight this was for for the people 412 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: at the time, because there were also competing hypotheses in 413 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, like Berlukian book 414 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: Toll show that in the first couple of decades of 415 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: the twentieth century that this idea of the sort of 416 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: learning through quote reduced resistance that exercise synapses. Uh that 417 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: that idea was pretty widely accepted in that first couple 418 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: of decades, and then for a while it really went 419 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: into decline. This the synaptic model of plasticity due to 420 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: arise in the popularity of competing ideas about all this 421 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: weird stuff about the equipotential whole version of the brain. 422 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: But anyway, in the late nineteen forties it came back. 423 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: It was sort of rehabilitated by scientists like the Polish 424 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: neuroscientists Jersey Konorski and the Canadian psychologist Donald Hebb, and 425 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: Hebb was particularly influential, and then experimental evidence accumulated during 426 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, especially during the mid and later twentieth century, 427 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: from the likes of David Hubel and Torsten VISal, Michael Merzenek, 428 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: and Eleanor McGuire. Now, the work of each of those 429 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: individuals is is fascinating, and I would love to come 430 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: back and look at them in greater detail. There's some 431 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: wonderful work they're regarding, Uh, you know, how how we 432 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: see the world. I mean, some of the very basic 433 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: questions about the human experience. How how do we perceive 434 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: the world and how is it processed in the brain 435 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: are explored by by by their work. But the interesting 436 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: thing is there's still something of a controversy about exactly 437 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: how plastic the adult human brain is, if much at all. 438 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: Like for most of the history of neuroscience, up until 439 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: very recently, a lot of experts believed that the human 440 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: adult brain had almost no plasticity, you know, that it 441 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: was fixed and stable. But at the same time, it's 442 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: obvious that adults can learn new things and adapt. Yeah, 443 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: we can change, and then we don't have to undergo 444 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, catastrophic brain injury for it to happen, right, So, 445 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: exactly how much potential for change in plasticity is there 446 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: in the adult brain and in what areas like? It 447 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: appears much easier for adults to learn and adapt in 448 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: some ways than it does in others. Language acquisition, as 449 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: we've talked about as a classic example, Um, you know, 450 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: children are just so so much better at learning a 451 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: language than adults are. Another one is certain aspects of 452 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: music learning. Have you read about perfect pitch? Probably, yes, Yeah, 453 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: you have to get it early or you're not gonna 454 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: You're not gonna get it later on. Yeah, This is 455 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: a commonly cited example Robert sing a middle c oh, 456 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: I I don't. I don't do music like that, Joe. 457 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: Almost no adults do unless you've you've trained on it 458 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: before you were you know, roughly six years old. Right, 459 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: So if you have this skill known as perfect pitch, 460 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: you should be able to recognize or produce not just 461 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: tones relative to other tones, but like you could call 462 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: out a note and the person would know what that 463 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: pitch actually was. They could sing it, or they could 464 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: recognize it in hearing it. Yeah. I My my reaction 465 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: to that question is the same as the other day 466 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: when my son asked me what Thursday plus Thursday equals, 467 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: and it's just like, I can't. That just broke my 468 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: brain a little bit to even try and answer that question. 469 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: It sounds like a three key Thursday probably, but yeah. 470 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: So Supposedly, the idea is if you teach children to 471 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: recognize pitches in an absolute sense before they're roughly six 472 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: years older, so they can potentially acquire this skill. It's 473 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: just like you've got to You've got to get going 474 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: within that window. Yeah, I feel like I'm I'm wasting 475 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: my time reading the hobbit to my my son, we 476 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: should be we should be working on this pitch thing. Well, 477 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: there are all kinds of things potentially like this that 478 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: you don't even know about. That maybe you should be 479 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: teaching your son at this article age, you know, before 480 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: the window doesn't close but gets very narrow. Yeah. Well, 481 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: I mean there is a lot of there's a lot 482 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: of discussion of this out there in parenting forums and 483 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: actual you know, pure viewed uh child rearing material just 484 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: about Yeah, these are the ages of childhood when you 485 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 1: want to throw a bunch of different activities at them. 486 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: You want them to have some sort of musical training, 487 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: some sort of uh training in another language, etcetera like this, 488 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: This is when the this is when the windows are open. 489 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: So you want to just throw as much stuff there 490 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: there as possible. But I mean, wouldn't it be great 491 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: if you could be like that again as an adult, 492 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: As we were talking about earlier, the desire to be 493 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: Peter Pan, aren't are there things that we could do 494 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: to make the adult brain a learning and adaptation machine 495 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: like the young child's brain. A lot of people have 496 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: been asking that question, and so I guess that's what 497 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: we should explore now. The idea of induced neuroplasticity and adults. 498 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: That's right. And as as we said earlier, it's it's 499 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: generally accepted that we can do this. It's it's what 500 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: we have to do is figure out exactly how to 501 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: do it. It's it's basically we want to be neural 502 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: puppet masters, but we are only just beginning to really 503 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: understand where all the strings are and then what happens 504 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: when you pull those strings? And then how do you 505 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: pull those strings? Do you just yank on them? Or 506 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: is it more of a delicate thing. We were trying 507 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: to to to master an art form of puppetry that 508 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: is currently beyond us. Right, It's not can we do 509 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: this at all? We're pretty sure we will be able 510 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: to do this to some extent. It's how well can 511 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: you do it? How well can you target it for 512 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: the kinds of things you want to do with it, 513 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: how well can you avoid negative side effects coming with it? 514 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: All that kind of stuff, and what are the best 515 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: drugs to do it with? Right? And there there have 516 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: been some experiments involving induced neuro plasticity and mice. A 517 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: lot of those yeah, and uh, you know, and those 518 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: show a lot of promise in my understanding. But then 519 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: anytime we're looking at experiments with with mice, Yes, mice 520 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: are are our great stand ins for human physiology, but 521 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: they are, of course are not humans. So and there 522 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: are a lot of differences between rodents and humans, especially 523 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: in the brain. Yes, so there are a lot of 524 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: questions that are that are not really going to be 525 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: answered until we we we better understand what we're doing 526 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: with the mice and also get more and more into 527 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: actually testing some of these treatments on humans. Well, let's 528 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: look at a couple of examples of research on drug 529 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: induced neuro plasticity. Yeah, and uh, you know, we're certainly 530 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: not gonna be able to cover all of it. As 531 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, a lot of the research out there 532 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: is either is either the deep end of the pool 533 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: or the obscenely shallow end of the pool. And uh, 534 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: and it's sometimes difficult to make sense even for us, 535 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: of the deeper end of the neuroscientific pool. Well, we'll 536 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: try to walk you up just to your armpits or so. Yeah, 537 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: this first study actually emerged this year. So psychedelic drugs 538 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: have long been associated with an opening of the mind, right, 539 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: and a June two, eighteen study published in Cell Press 540 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: points to evidence of psychedelic induced neuroplasticity in rats and flies, 541 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: and UM, I have to say, I found this very 542 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: interesting too, because there's actually a part in Alan Moore's 543 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: v for Vendetta, the original graphic novel. I don't think 544 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: this is represented in the film version, but you see 545 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: one of the main characters take l s D at 546 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: the side of a government resettlement camp, UH, kind of 547 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: opening himself up to the full horror of the place 548 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: and his connection to it. It's a it's a very 549 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: powerful scene, but but it doesn't directly relate to this study. 550 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: So this University of California Davis study examine the effects 551 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: of several drugs in test tube and animal experience experiments, 552 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: including M d m A, d m T, l s D, 553 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: and the ephetamine d o I, and they found that 554 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: d o I, d m T, and L s D 555 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: in particular made neurons more likely to branch out and develop. 556 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: Based on their findings that use, Davis team thinks that 557 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: UH psychedelic compounds such as DO d O I, d 558 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: m T analyst may eventually pave the way for prescription 559 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: neuroplasticity drugs. It's just all a matter of capitalizing on 560 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: their ability to expand the very neural circuits observed to 561 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: atrophy during depression, anxiety, and PTSD, so they observe functional 562 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: and structural changes in cortical neurons for both vertebrates and 563 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: invertebrates exposed to psychedelic compounds and isolated activity to the 564 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: to the protein called brain derived neurotrophic factor or b 565 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: d n F, and when b d n F was blocked, 566 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: the psychedelics lost their ability to promote neural growth. And 567 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: the case proved to be the same with the m 568 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: tour signaling pathway, which plays a role in creating proteins 569 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: for new sign apps formation. If you think of the 570 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: brain as a complex map, then this research places two 571 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: key markers on what could one day prove the pathway 572 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: to induce neuro plasticity. The judging from what I've read 573 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: that it seems like there could be a lot of 574 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: pathway yeah, oh yes, And senior author and UC Davis 575 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: Assistant chemistry Professor David E. Olsen on this the stresses 576 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: that there's there's still a lot to learn here and 577 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: it is team's experiments didn't entail human trials, of course, 578 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: but it but it is enough to suggest that the 579 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: mind expanding aspects of psychedelics as we understand them may 580 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: one day adis in creating new treatments. So I want 581 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: to underline that the researchers here are not saying go 582 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: and take a bunch of LSD and then try and 583 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: learn Mandarin or develop perfect pitch. They're saying that there 584 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: are potentially things in these substances that we could utilize 585 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: to create far better, far more targeted substances in the future. Now, 586 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: though there are some results indicating the possibility of induced 587 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: neuroplasticity and adults and adult humans, these are preliminary intentatives. 588 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: We want to keep stressing this is one of those 589 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: areas where I would really expect to continue to see 590 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: a lot of controversy about the validity of results over 591 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: the next decade or the next couple of decades or so. UM. 592 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: I think it's it's important to stress amidst all of 593 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: the hype and the advertising and all that about neuroplasticity 594 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: become a master of your brain, that that we're not 595 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: there yet. This stuff is not ready for prime time. Right. 596 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: I can't remember who made this comparison. But I believe 597 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: it was pointed out that when when we tinker with 598 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: the with the way our brain and even the way 599 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: our bodies work, especially with with various pharmaceuticals, it's kind 600 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: of like trying to change the oil in a car 601 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: by just dumping the motor oil direct, like opening the 602 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: hood and dumping it into the engine. Um. You know, 603 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: things are not nearly as targeted as they as we 604 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: want them to be. Yeah, that's great, that's a good metaphor. 605 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: So I want to cite a few claims a few 606 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: other claims about induced neuroplasticity and adult humans that have 607 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: appeared in the press. One is uh one what I've 608 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: seen referenced a lot is a article and New Scientist 609 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: by Helen Thompson about neuroplasticity drugs, and one of the 610 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: research teams that Thompson talks about is led by the 611 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: Harvard Professor of Neurology, Takeo. Hench, who has been doing 612 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: one one line of research, and the basic gist is 613 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: that one of the physiological changes that appears to close 614 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: the window of neuroplasticity and children and bring on this 615 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: period of adult neuro stability is the proliferation of a 616 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: particular enzyme in the brain, the enzyme histone d A 617 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: claise or h d a C, and according to Thompson, 618 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: this enzyme primarily serves to inhibit the activation and deactivation 619 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: of genes in our DNA. So we know that genes 620 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: and the DNA. It's not like all the genes are 621 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: all doing their thing all at the same time. Genes 622 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: can be activated and deactivated, turned on and turned off, 623 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: and apparently the proliferation of the enzyme h D a 624 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 1: C prevents this turning on and off. It's like, okay, 625 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: settle down, stop flipping the switches. So if this enzyme 626 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: is associated with the end of the neuroplasticity window, what 627 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: if we could simply inhibit this enzyme right, would plasticity 628 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: open back up? So in two thousand ten, Hinge and 629 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: colleagues found uh found this to be the case in 630 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: rodents at least. They used a drug called valproate, which 631 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: is a drug that specifically restricts his stone d c 632 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: LAS or h d a C and usually valparade is 633 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: used to treat conditions like epilepsy and bipolar disorder. In 634 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: this case, it appeared to cure amblyopia in adult rodents, 635 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: which is often caused by reduced sight in one eye 636 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: during the period in childhood when the senses are developing. 637 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: If you don't fix it during that neuroplastic window in childhood, 638 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: you're usually stuck with it as an adult. Yeah, and 639 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: this is something that played into some of those twentieth 640 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: century uh UM discoveries related to plasticity that I referenced earlier. Yeah, 641 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: but would this kind of thing actually work in humans? 642 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: So Hinge work together with Alan Young at King's College, 643 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: London and some other colleagues to see if this drug 644 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: could allow adults to acquire a skill it's usually only 645 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: acquired during that highly plastic period of childhood. And they 646 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: went with perfect pitch again uh calling out that that 647 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: note knowing exactly what the note is not relative to 648 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: other notes, but just hearing it or being able to 649 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: produce it. So they did a study with twenty four 650 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: men who had no perfect pitch, no musical training, and 651 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: these men were treated with either valporoid or placebo daily 652 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: for about two weeks, and during the second half of 653 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: the treatment period they watched training videos on how to 654 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: identify absolute musical tones by associating them with names like 655 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: Sarah and Jimmy. The reason they did names was to 656 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: rule out any potential pre existing associations that the men 657 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: might have with pitches in the note names. But I 658 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: like the idea of it's like, you know, sing me 659 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: a middle Jimmy. On the last day of the trial, 660 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: the group was given a test. They had to listen 661 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: to eighteen notes and see if they could correctly identify 662 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 1: the absolute pitches by name. The control group who took 663 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: the placebo got an average of about three point five notes, 664 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,439 Speaker 1: which was performance at chance. The test group who took 665 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: the valpor it got a little over five notes right 666 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: on average, which was significantly better than chance. So this 667 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: was a small study, maybe kind of small effect, but 668 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: it caught plenty of attention from other from other researchers, 669 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: and Thompson reports that there are also neuroplasticity induction trials 670 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: with drugs like dnepazil, which is used to treat Alzheimer's, 671 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: or the common antidepressant prozac. So you know, of course, 672 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: you see a lot of hype in the headlines like 673 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: you know, learn like a child again, rewire your brain 674 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: to be a super learner. But despite these early, kind 675 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: of promising seeming trials, we should remember to slow down. 676 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: Even if we didn't know anything except the fact that 677 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: our bodies were created by natural selection, we could conclude 678 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: that the brain shuts down its hyperplastic period for a reason. 679 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: Do we really want to go messing around with the 680 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: stability of our brain without a good reason behind it. Yeah, 681 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: we kind of just trying to solve the lament configuration 682 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: here without any real understanding of what is going to happen. 683 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: So let's take another quick break, and when we come back, 684 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: we will briefly discuss some of the potential downsides of neuroplasticity, 685 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: the pros and cons than. All right, we're back, so 686 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: we we we discussed the idea that neuroplasticity could have 687 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: not just pros but also cons If you extend neuro 688 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: plasticity into adulthood, that's not necessarily a perfectly good thing 689 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: right now, now, certainly that the potential pros are really 690 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: attractive because we could invoke brief widenings of neuroplasticity to 691 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: aid in recovery from various illnesses and injuries. We could 692 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: treat neurological diseases and fight the effects of Alzheimer's, we 693 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: could also use it to treat trauma. One of the 694 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 1: things I think about is that in his presentation at 695 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: the World Science Festival, at the beginning of this panel, 696 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: the con talks about how hard it is to retrain 697 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: people to walk after they've had some kind of like 698 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: stroke or brain injury that damages their motor areas. They 699 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: forget how to walk and they need to learn how 700 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: to walk again. It's really hard for an adult to 701 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: learn how to walk, even if your brain is you know, 702 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: you're in a healing phase, because walking is difficult. It's 703 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: like a super hard thing to learn how to do. 704 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: You're doing all this intuitive math all the time, to 705 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: keep your balance, to do everything right. It's not easy, 706 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,280 Speaker 1: but we learn it during this period when our brains 707 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: are in this super learning phase as children. So if 708 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: if you could say, have somebody with a brain injury 709 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: they need to relearn how to walk, and you could 710 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: reinduce that kind of childhood motor learning neuro plasticity, then 711 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: they could potentially have a lot more success and have 712 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: an easier time getting back on their feet and relearning 713 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: these kinds of tasks that we take for granted, but 714 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: of course, the potential for misuse and even abuse is 715 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: obviously high. Here neuro plasticity has already become as we've discussed, 716 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: something of a buzzword in the realm of supplements and 717 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: self help, and we focus again on this nero definition 718 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: of neuroplasticity most of the time, the idea that neuroplasticity 719 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 1: equals good and assume that any sort of boost here 720 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: is a good thing. But indeed, what would the downsides 721 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: to even therapeutic use be if someone were to take 722 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: such a drug unregulated to aid and study perhaps or 723 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 1: or to work on some purely for some purely recreational purpose. 724 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: You know, what would be the cost? We again, we 725 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,879 Speaker 1: don't know for certain, but but there are some possibilities 726 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: and some of these were discussed in that World Science 727 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: Festival panel. What did they talk about, Well, they said, Uh, 728 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: for one thing, there is this potential link between too 729 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: much plasticity and say, savant abilities. Uh. Savant syndrome is 730 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: when individuals with mental disabilities exhibit advanced abilities and specific 731 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: areas such as recall, calculation or musical skill. So under 732 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: under their characterizations, savant syndrome could be sort of a 733 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: byproduct of of unregulated plasticity in the brain. Yeah, or 734 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,919 Speaker 1: at the very least, it's a situation where if you're saying, yeah, 735 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: give me all the plasticity you got, what could go wrong? 736 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 1: And they're saying, well, uh, here here is something. Here's 737 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: an an example of a case where they may be 738 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: linked to too much plasticity. Yeah. They also say that 739 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 1: too much plasticity may yield too much to the environment. Yeah. 740 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: How about um, when children are young, they're emotionally vulnerable. Yeah, 741 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: or it makes me again, think of that v for 742 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: Vendetta example of a character essentially, you know, tormenting himself 743 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: by by taking a psychedelic at a at a place 744 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: of intense historic trauma. Yeah. Now, I can definitely see 745 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 1: ways that if you were to say, make my brain 746 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: sort of a vessel, make it, make it play. Though 747 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: we can shape it, however, we want the first really 748 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: bad thing to happen to you while you're in that 749 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: state could have really traumatic effects. Yeah. Indeed, I mean 750 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: ultimately it can make for a more chaotic system of 751 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: the mind. Uh, in a time, during a time in 752 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: which you're not supposed to have that much chaos. Also, 753 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: they point out that autism may be a situation that 754 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: entails too much neuroplasticity. It's been pointed out that transcranial 755 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: magnetics stimulation looks it works longer on autistic individuals, so 756 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: there is stronger perturbation there. And transcranial magnetic stimulation that 757 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: just be where you put like a magnetic coil over 758 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: the head to induce current in the brain, and that 759 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: sort of stimulates certain brain areas or or actually I 760 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: think often suppresses or sort of like shuts down certain 761 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: brain areas. But they're saying that in certain uh, in 762 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: certain cases, it appears that some individuals with some types 763 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: of autism are more susceptible to the brain being manipulated 764 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: by that kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. And then on 765 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: the other hand, they say that schizophrenia may, according to 766 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 1: some recent studies, be tied to synaptic pruning again the 767 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: process by which the brain sheds wheat connections between neurons. 768 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: In other words, that it might be more associated with 769 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: the brain sort of being the opposite of two neuroplastic 770 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: to neurostable. Yeah. Yeah, again, just showing that there is 771 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: a balance in the There seems to be a balance 772 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: in the brain, and we really need to know what 773 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: we're doing before we just erupt it, even for very 774 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: noble purposes and very targeted purposes um point. For instance, 775 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: during adolescence and even early adulthood, we see this in 776 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: the pre frontal cortex, the center of you know, thinking 777 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: and planning skills. People with genes that accelerate or at 778 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: intensify pruning are at higher risk for schizophrenia, according to 779 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,400 Speaker 1: a two thousand sixteen Columbia University study published in Nature. 780 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: And then it's worth driving home too that this would 781 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: in no way be a magic pill. This would not 782 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,879 Speaker 1: be like some some movie pill where you just take 783 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: it and oh, I'm suddenly, uh, you know, a complete genius. 784 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: Suddenly I'm a master of every art I attempt to 785 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: take up. Well, yeah, I mean, we should keep in 786 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 1: mind we don't want to overstate the effects too much, 787 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: are over generalized too much. But with the caveat that 788 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: this is just a metaphor, you should be careful about 789 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: anything that makes your mind more like the mind of 790 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: a child. Yeah, that makes your mind more like I mean, 791 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: there are great things about being a child, but there 792 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: are also ways in which being a child is a 793 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: position of vulnerability. There's a reason we protect children, and 794 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: who's going to protect you if you're you know, if 795 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: you're taking a whole bunch of illegally obtained neuroplasticity pills. 796 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: Like there's there's not a direct comparison to be made 797 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 1: here between say potential neuroplasticity drug abuse and say steroid abuse. 798 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,439 Speaker 1: But but but I think you can you can draw 799 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: some very rough comparisons. You know, an individual who who 800 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: takes too much of this substance in order to artificially 801 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: bulk up muscles in an inn what is ultimately an 802 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,959 Speaker 1: unhelpful way, you know, like muscles that are too big 803 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,479 Speaker 1: to really function for what you you need them for, 804 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: and then that occurring with with various side effects as well, 805 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: both mental and physical. So I feel like we we 806 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: we risk similar situations, certainly if we're talking about any 807 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,080 Speaker 1: future abuse of these or even just recreational use of 808 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: neuro plasticity drugs, as is often the case with with 809 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: great possibility for rewards comes great possibility for risks. So 810 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 1: this is this is something where you should keep an 811 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: eye on it. This is a field that could have 812 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: great promise for really helping people's lives. But but you know, 813 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: be careful, don't buy into the hype, and definitely don't 814 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: buy anything somebody selling. Yeah, yeah, be care because there, 815 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,320 Speaker 1: as was pointed out there, there are already products in 816 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,600 Speaker 1: the market that are using the neuro plasticity buzzword to 817 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,120 Speaker 1: to to reach you. Uh. And at the same time, 818 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: if you're thinking, well, Robert, Joe, I'm getting a little 819 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: older and I want to I want to stay sharp. 820 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: I wanna I want to do what I can to 821 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: to keep those those doors a little bit wide. I 822 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: want to I don't want to go into neural stagnation. 823 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: What can I do? Well, there are safe things that 824 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 1: we do know about. In fact, there is one of 825 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 1: them is sleep, getting plenty of sleep, exercise and nutrition. Uh. 826 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: Using your brain, like stimulation of the brain, both intellectually 827 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: and socially. Yeah. Uh. And and you know your you 828 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: might think, well, these don't sound very fun, but I 829 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: hate stimulating. It's like you like keep telling us to 830 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,319 Speaker 1: take our vitamins. But in a way, it's like that. 831 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: It's like we're not talking about magic fixes here, but 832 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: we're talking about things that that that have done regularly 833 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: over the course of a lifetime, have been shown to 834 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: have positive effects. Why can't I just have a pill? 835 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: I know that's that's what we really want. But but 836 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:23,879 Speaker 1: I do think when you when you look at it, 837 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 1: like more often than not, it certainly with more complex 838 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: things related to human physiology and and and certainly the mind, 839 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: the quick fixes is not necessarily what we think it is. Yeah, now, 840 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: I want to come back on what I just said there. 841 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: I am certainly not somebody who wants to demonize medication 842 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: of any kind, demonized psychiatric medication or or you know, 843 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: neurological medication. I that's a thing you sometimes hear people 844 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: do you know, like, oh, why don't you just you know, 845 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: you need a pill for that? Why don't you just 846 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,800 Speaker 1: whip your life into shape? That That is a fatally 847 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: reductionist statitude that does not properly understand the way that 848 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: our bodies and behaviors are controlled by chemicals in the brain. Yes, 849 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: and certainly all the various differences from brain to brain. 850 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so, uh so I'm very much in the 851 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: same same boat. I think that the future for neuro 852 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: plasticity is bright. There there is a lot of good 853 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: that is going to come of these future treatments and medications. 854 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 1: But it does benefit us to to understand uh, what 855 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: we're actually talking about and the the the both negative 856 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,280 Speaker 1: and positive potential of the technology. Yeah, so hold hold 857 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: the hype, listen to the researchers, all right. So there 858 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: you have it. Uh. In the meantime, if you want 859 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: to check out more episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, 860 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 861 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: That's the mother ship. That's where we'll find all the episodes, 862 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: plus links out to our various social media accounts. And 863 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 1: if you want to support the show, rate and review 864 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 1: wherever you've got the podcast, that's where you need to 865 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: go and drop us some stars and a few kind words. 866 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,280 Speaker 1: Big thanks as always to our wonderful audio producers Alex 867 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: Williams and Tari Harrison. 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