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Speaker 1: It's no secret that the idea of the serial killer

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Speaker 1: holds holds a prominent place in American culture, and it

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Speaker 1: being American culture, it's also sadly no surprise that serial

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Speaker 1: killer memorabilia has become a shadow industry all its own,

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Speaker 1: not just things like not just things associated with homicides

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Speaker 1: or associated with the killers themselves, but often art and

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Speaker 1: letters created by these murderers. That's what our classic episode's

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Speaker 1: about tonight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's really it's sad on a couple

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Speaker 2: of levels because oftentimes, you know, folks like this who

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Speaker 2: have been incarcerated, there are laws against them profiting off

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Speaker 2: of these kinds of you know, sale of memorabilia, so

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Speaker 2: there's a certain black market around it. But also it's

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Speaker 2: the people who obsess over this stuff. And you can

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Speaker 2: also find some of these pieces in like the Museum

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Speaker 2: of Death, for example, which I believe we talk about

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Speaker 2: in the episode. So it is a very interesting world,

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Speaker 2: if niche and kind of drenched in melancholy.

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Speaker 3: So let's check out this episode, The Murky World of

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Speaker 3: serial Killer Memorabilia from May twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 3: my name is Nola.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. You are here, You are you,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know, featuring.

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Speaker 1: Of course, our superproducer, Paul Mission Controlled decand who I

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Speaker 1: have it on good authority, has never himself purchased something

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Speaker 1: involved with the murder.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, that's nice.

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Speaker 2: That is certainly a claim to fame that Paul can

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Speaker 2: attest to.

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Speaker 3: He's got a whole heck of a lot of cool

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Speaker 3: posters though from movies.

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Speaker 1: Right right, and the murders may occur in those works of.

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Speaker 3: Fiction, they definitely do.

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Speaker 1: But Mission Control is not the kind of cat to

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Speaker 1: go out and read about maybe a series of stabbings

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Speaker 1: and say I need to buy that knife, I want

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Speaker 1: a piece of that action, I want a shoe from

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Speaker 1: a victim or something like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was I couldn't believe that that existed before

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Speaker 3: we did this episode.

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Speaker 4: Ben.

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Speaker 1: It's a weird thing, of course, Paul. I promise we

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Speaker 1: will stop using you as an example. As far as

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Speaker 1: we know, none of us, Paul included have purchased this

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Speaker 1: sort of memorabilia previously on stuff They'll want you to know.

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Speaker 1: We had explored numerous stories of serial killers, specific cases

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Speaker 1: such as our unfortunately ongoing Uncaught serial Killer series and

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Speaker 1: larger phenomena such as the Highway of Tears.

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Speaker 3: Or even the East Area rapist slash original Nightstalker.

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Speaker 1: Right right, DiAngelo had just been caught, and we had

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Speaker 1: mentioned this, I think just briefly in an earlier episode.

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Speaker 1: We might have to do an entire follow up on

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Speaker 1: that because it leads to some wide reaching implications for

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Speaker 1: genetic testing DNA basis.

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Speaker 3: Didn't we do a whole episode on the We did

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Speaker 3: a whole original episode.

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Speaker 1: We did, Yeah, and we wondered whether he would be caught.

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Speaker 1: We did speculate on his age, and overall we weren't wrong.

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Speaker 3: Remember we said he might be listening. He could have

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Speaker 3: been listening.

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Speaker 1: That's true. He could have I don't know if he's

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Speaker 1: a fan of podcasts, allegedly is a recluse. Okay, but

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Speaker 1: they found him through some relatives DNA. Well, we'll dig

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Speaker 1: into that and so stay tuned. One thing's for sure, though,

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Speaker 1: there are probably going to be people who attempt to

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Speaker 1: associate themselves with this in one way or another. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's a very cold comfort for the surviving victims, and

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Speaker 1: it's a closure point for people who spent years, decades

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Speaker 1: of unpaid time investigating this. Today we're touching on serial killers,

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Speaker 1: but in a little bit of a different way. We're

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Speaker 1: not looking at so many specific cases, and we're not

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Speaker 1: tracing murders themselves. Instead, we're exploring an industry that's sprang

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Speaker 1: up around these grizzly tragedies, a monetization of monsters made flesh.

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Speaker 1: And here are the facts. We've already explored how law

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Speaker 1: enforcement and criminologists define serial killers, along with the problems

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Speaker 1: inherent in that definition and the difference between the way

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Speaker 1: these murders are depicted in fiction and the way they

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Speaker 1: actually behave. But we haven't explored the other side of

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Speaker 1: the dark mirror. We haven't looked at the public fascination

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Speaker 1: with these crimes and the public fascination with the people

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Speaker 1: who commit them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this stuff probably might, let's say, might not

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Speaker 3: apply to you, but it's overwhelmingly likely that somebody you

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Speaker 3: are an acquaintance with harbors this weird curiosity. I say

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Speaker 3: weird for me, and for I guess for the social

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Speaker 3: mores of the world, it is a bit strange, this

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Speaker 3: fascination with serial killers, murderers, people who go out and

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Speaker 3: take lives. People like this read exhaustive biographies. They read

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Speaker 3: accounts of the actual killers' activities, what occurs before the

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Speaker 3: mo of the killer. They can likely compare differences in

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Speaker 3: motivation between killers and execution and apprehension for multiple killers.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about someone who's able to say, well,

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Speaker 1: the difference between John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer is

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Speaker 1: the following.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we'll sit down with you at a bar

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Speaker 3: and tell you the difference is, for an hour.

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Speaker 1: I have been guilty of that. Yeah, I think, and

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Speaker 1: I think everybody has that fascination to some degree, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because it is so different from normal everyday activities.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's a book we found from twenty fourteen

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Speaker 1: called Why We Love Serial Killers, in which criminologist doctor

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Speaker 1: Scott Bond explores the nature of this and he notes

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Speaker 1: the same things we've seen in previous arguments about this fascination.

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Speaker 1: Says there's a difference between perceptions of killers in reality.

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Speaker 1: He does a lot of myth busting in this book.

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Speaker 1: If you were at all interested in this topic, we

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Speaker 1: highly recommend it. One of the myths he busts is

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Speaker 1: that the majority of serial killers are believed to be

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Speaker 1: white males. However, according to the FBI, the race by race,

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Speaker 1: the racial break down of serial killers is about the

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Speaker 1: same proportion as that of the US population at large,

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Speaker 1: and based on the Radford University serial Killer Database, which

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Speaker 1: holy smokes, is a real thing, only forty six percent

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Speaker 1: of serial killers since nineteen ten have been white men.

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Speaker 1: And that's using data for a little less than four

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Speaker 1: thousand killers, or maybe right at four thousand now that

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Speaker 1: they've added the Nights Talker.

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Speaker 2: But here's the thing, you know, none of us, including

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Speaker 2: Paul michelin man Mission Control decand own any of this,

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Speaker 2: these keepsakes of any kind of serial killer. And yet

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Speaker 2: I'm fond of serial killer movies. I'm not as into

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Speaker 2: true crime as it would seem literally everyone else on

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Speaker 2: the planet is. But it is obviously a huge booming business.

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Speaker 2: Where do you think that fascination comes from that makes,

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Speaker 2: you know, the average Jane and John Doe off the

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Speaker 2: street want to kind of dig into some of the stuff,

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Speaker 2: whether it's in reading books about it, or listen to

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Speaker 2: true crime podcast, watching films, or you know, exploring some

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Speaker 2: of this darkness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have to we'll stick with this perception

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Speaker 1: of serial killers being overwhelmingly white and male to hit

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Speaker 1: on this because when we bring up fiction and the zeitgeist,

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Speaker 1: what we see is that even if the facts bear

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Speaker 1: out that not all these killers are white males, the

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Speaker 1: ones who get remembered in pop culture do tend to

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Speaker 1: be white male killers, and Bond has a couple of

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Speaker 1: theories about this. He says the gender difference may come

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Speaker 1: down to a matter of method. Female killers, in his argument,

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Speaker 1: tend to be less use less gory methods like poisoned

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Speaker 1: and rather than shooting. But one of the most famous

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Speaker 1: or infamous female serial killers in the US, Eileen Wernos,

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Speaker 1: was murdering people with a gun. Bond thinks that's the

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Speaker 1: reason why she reached fame. But only nine percent around

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Speaker 1: nine percent of serial killers since nineteen ten have been women,

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Speaker 1: forty percent have been African American, and few have achieved

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Speaker 1: celebrity status. There's the disturbing thing. There is a choice

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Speaker 1: of victims. Bond believes most serial killers tend to kill

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Speaker 1: within their own race, and that white victims, especially white

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Speaker 1: female victims, usually get wider media attentions. So there's a

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Speaker 1: loop here between victims and killers and the media. And

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Speaker 1: so this racial bias, says disturbing as it is, is real,

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Speaker 1: and according to Bond, he says, although it may not

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Speaker 1: seem fair, affluent white neighborhoods are given priority over poor

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Speaker 1: black or Latino neighborhoods by state officials in the assignment

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Speaker 1: of valuable policing resources. This negatively impacts the ability of

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Speaker 1: law enforcement personnel to pursue serial murder cases in poor

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Speaker 1: racial minority communities. So society is valuing these victims less

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Speaker 1: and it's making as a result, it's making the crimes

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Speaker 1: as terrific as the sounds be presented or perceived as

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Speaker 1: somehow less important. And this means that the infamy of

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Speaker 1: the killer also becomes a lower.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because they're not spending the resources to catch the

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Speaker 3: people that do them. And when you're not spending the

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Speaker 3: resources to catch them, you're not getting the media attention.

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Speaker 3: You're not I mean, there's all he Bond makes all

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Speaker 3: these unfortunate points about the reality of our situation of

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Speaker 3: racial bifurcation.

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Speaker 1: And so there to that point, if we use this

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Speaker 1: information and we ask ourselves the same question Noel was asking,

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Speaker 1: or asking about fascination with serial killers, we have to

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Speaker 1: ask ourselves, does this mean we are more fascinated with

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Speaker 1: a stereotype rather than an actual phenomenon. But we can't

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Speaker 1: go too far, too fast down that path, because it

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Speaker 1: turns out there's solid evidence for the American obsess with

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Speaker 1: serial killers, and it's not particularly promising news. There have

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Speaker 1: been more than twenty six hundred serial killers in the

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Speaker 1: US since nineteen hundred. England, who has the next highest total,

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Speaker 1: has had.

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Speaker 3: Only one hundred and forty two.

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Speaker 1: Twenty six hundred to one hundred and forty two. We also,

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Speaker 1: in the States have higher rates of violent crime, and

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Speaker 1: that might be why some killers are more famous than others,

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Speaker 1: because again throughout the world, even though serial killers exist

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Speaker 1: in other countries throughout the world, when people picture as

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Speaker 1: serial killer, they usually picture either Jack the Ripper or

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Speaker 1: someone from the States.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is highly bothersome, this American obsession with it.

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Speaker 3: And I wonder how much you know? There are all

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Speaker 3: things that we can we can go down, and there's

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Speaker 3: more that we're getting in here about fiction about Americans

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Speaker 3: obsession with fictionalizing these kinds of things. It does feel

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Speaker 3: like the advent of the film industry in the United

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Speaker 3: States probably is linked with this.

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Speaker 2: But he had that I was getting at. It's like

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Speaker 2: we're not obsessed with it, and that we empathize with killers,

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Speaker 2: or that we see ourselves in serial killers. I think

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Speaker 2: there's some part of us that maybe is fascinated by

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Speaker 2: it because it makes us feel superior in some way.

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Speaker 2: It's like, we do not have this compulsion or you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering. I'm asking you guys, like where where you

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Speaker 2: think it comes from? Because I've always kind of been

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Speaker 2: stuck on that because it is so grizzly and unpleasant,

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Speaker 2: and yet it is something that seems to catch people's imaginations,

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Speaker 2: you know, the world over.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it's true that many of the stories,

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Speaker 1: the way they're presented, whether by just the facts criminologists,

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Speaker 1: or whether by the film industry, they all have the

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Speaker 1: marks of gripping fiction, high stakes danger, fire knives, mysteries,

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Speaker 1: and clear heroes and villains often right. And research shows

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Speaker 1: I think this is pretty fascinating. Research shows that they're

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of groups of people who enjoy

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Speaker 1: these graphic, frightening stories, and they can have a number

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Speaker 1: of very different motivations. The study from nineteen ninety five

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Speaker 1: about adolescence said that some were gore watchers, meaning they

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Speaker 1: professed in like a confidential environment, that they were watching

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Speaker 1: horrific movies because they enjoyed the blood and guts. They

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Speaker 1: tended to have low levels of empathy, strong need for

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Speaker 1: adventure seeking. And then there were thrill watchers who got

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Speaker 1: the adrenaline Russia, being scared, that roller coaster feeling right,

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Speaker 1: and they have high levels of adventure seeking, but they

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Speaker 1: also have, you know, high levels of empathy. And the

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Speaker 1: gore watchers identified with the killers rather than the victims.

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Speaker 1: The thrill watchers identified with neither. I guess you'd say

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Speaker 1: they identify with the plot.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just all in our minds, our smartphones,

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Speaker 1: our television. There's a physiological thing that weapons here. Just

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Speaker 1: like we talked about dopamine and social media. You get

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Speaker 1: a increased heart rate, increased breathing rate, increased blood glucose levels,

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Speaker 1: and you also get again a fit, a dose of

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Speaker 1: dopamine when you're watching these things. It's the neurotransmitter famously

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Speaker 1: associated with pleasure mainly food and sex, but also occurs

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Speaker 1: during time times of fear, and it's good for our survival.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have to go too granular here,

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Speaker 1: but there is physiological evidence and so, in a very

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Speaker 1: real way, depictions of serial killers can function for adults

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Speaker 1: the way that monster movies function for kids.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, my son writer is a bit too young

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Speaker 3: to do this kind of thing, although we did recently

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Speaker 3: watch Toy Story in which there's that the little kid

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Speaker 3: next door that tortures toys.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's scarier than I had remembered in it, you know,

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Speaker 3: about two and a half. It's like, okay, maybe we

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Speaker 3: shouldn't watch something like this anymore. But of course, you know,

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Speaker 3: he can handle something that has a a monster monster

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Speaker 3: just fine, and he thinks it's fun, not you know,

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Speaker 3: nothing too graphic. But something like Moana that has a

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Speaker 3: big volcano monster in it, you just think it's because

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Speaker 3: it's I don't know, it's not as real as a

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Speaker 3: little kid. That's actually scary.

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Speaker 1: How do you handle Halloween? I don't know about you guys,

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Speaker 1: but for me, as a kid, Halloween was my favorite holiday,

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Speaker 1: and it has some scary themes in there that maybe

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Speaker 1: don't really hit you when you're when you're a child.

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Speaker 3: Well yeah, at his age, you just kind of have

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Speaker 3: to keep him away from it a lot of it.

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Speaker 3: But there's you know, dressed up like a dragon. Come on,

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Speaker 3: that's fun, would you because you're your kid's been a

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Speaker 3: little bit older.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she dressed up as a creepy dead doll last

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Speaker 2: year with like corpse makeup bond stuff. Wow, she's nine.

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Speaker 2: But she also dressed up as Satan when she was

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Speaker 2: only four, so she's got a she's got a history creepy,

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Speaker 2: creepy Halloween costumes. She's all about the spooky stuff except

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Speaker 2: when she's not, except when it's too much. She likes

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Speaker 2: to control it, you know what I mean. And that's

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Speaker 2: the thing. Sometimes you don't know, like that that scene

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Speaker 2: and toy story. To one kid, it could be totally fine,

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Speaker 2: and the kid it could traumatize them for life, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, just to jump back into the dopamine dosing that

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Speaker 3: people get from watching this kind of fiction and experiencing

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Speaker 3: it through crime drama on television or some of the

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Speaker 3: murder shows that exist throughout it is. It's really interesting

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Speaker 3: to me that you can sit on your couch, or

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Speaker 3: you can sit in a movie theater and get those

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Speaker 3: same feelings that you would if you were out having

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Speaker 3: a fantastical meal somewhere, or let's say, being amorous with

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Speaker 3: your your loved one. And we talked in our Hidden

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Speaker 3: Brain episodes about this is one of the one of

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Speaker 3: the reasons that horror movies are so good for that

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Speaker 3: kind of date situation. Sure, because causing these things to

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Speaker 3: occur in your brain. But when you get into the

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Speaker 3: mind of some of the adolescents who are the gore watchers,

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Speaker 3: that frightens me. It feels like there needs to be

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Speaker 3: some kind of process of cataloging the gore watchers. Oh

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Speaker 3: that sounds awful when I say it out loud, but

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Speaker 3: I feel like they should. They should at least be

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Speaker 3: on the radar. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's now more than ever it's possible to

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Speaker 1: do something like that. But the question is should we agreed? Agreed?

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Speaker 1: Society agreed, but they're always saving lives anyway, Where where

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Speaker 1: does this all leave us? This physiological stuff? It's real,

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Speaker 1: The stereotypes are real, the facts are remain disturbing. We'll

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Speaker 1: explore this after a word from our sponsors. And what

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Speaker 1: we see now is that the mythical killers, those who

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Speaker 1: don't don't fit into the existing sort of narrative, are

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Speaker 1: becoming separated from the facts of their cases. So with

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Speaker 1: each new film, novel, or other fictional iteration about someone

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Speaker 1: like ed gean right the loose basis for the Texas

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Speaker 1: Chainsaw Massacre film franchise, any part of the story that

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Speaker 1: doesn't fit into the mold of deranged, middle aged white guy,

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Speaker 1: possibly with a dark secret. Any stuff that doesn't fit

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Speaker 1: there is just shed. It's just on the cutting room floor,

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Speaker 1: and the stereotype becomes more streamlined. And now there's this

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Speaker 1: increasing trend. I'm really interested in hearing opinions on this.

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Speaker 1: There's this increasing trend of serial killers as protagonist. I

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Speaker 1: watched Dexter. I thought it was cool for the first

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Speaker 1: few seasons.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, and then it jumped the shark pretty seriously.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well there's another one. Did you guys watch Luther

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Speaker 3: at all? I like Luther a lot, the Alice Morgan

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Speaker 3: character from the first episode. I won't spoil it too

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Speaker 3: much because it's relatively new, but it's a straight up

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Speaker 3: serial killer that becomes the love interest.

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Speaker 2: Like what, Yeah, it's sort of like one of those

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Speaker 2: like tortured loves too or is this forbidden love kind

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Speaker 2: of situation? And she's a threat to him as well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: pretty pretty constantly. Now, I see what you're saying. And

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Speaker 2: she is designed. That character is designed to make you

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Speaker 2: to kind of appeal to you, to make you like

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Speaker 2: see from her side, you know, because even we'll be

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Speaker 2: getting too much in the spoiled territories. But some of

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Speaker 2: the crimes that she commits, she has this really intense

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Speaker 2: rationalization for committing that you almost can kind of buy

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Speaker 2: into in a way. It's weird.

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Speaker 3: Well that's what all of these do.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to watch this show.

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Speaker 2: No, that's very good.

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Speaker 1: So behind the curtain, both Matt and Will have much

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Speaker 1: much better taste than me in general. So if you

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Speaker 1: guys have some advice on a show I am in

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Speaker 1: also interests, Elbow is dude.

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Speaker 3: I mean, come on, just watch it for him?

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Speaker 1: Is he a real smoke show? I heard that last

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Speaker 1: week tonight.

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Speaker 3: I like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't make that one up, folks. So that's

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Speaker 1: that's all. John Oliver or his writers. So yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we identify with these people right in. One of the

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Speaker 1: most famous examples, of course, is Hannibal Lecter by the

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Speaker 1: third novel. He's pretty much a tortured anti hero.

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Speaker 3: That eats people.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's kind of what I was getting at too earlier,

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Speaker 2: is trying to kind of like come to put my

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Speaker 2: finger on or put our collective thumbs on what this is.

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that identifying feature is almost an evolution because,

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Speaker 2: like you know, earlier serial killer films, typically the killer

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Speaker 2: is you don't even know who it is. It's just

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Speaker 2: this unseen, murderous force of chaos and destruction.

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Speaker 3: It's a monster.

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Speaker 2: It's a monster exactly. But now you know, because we

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Speaker 2: need more, you have to twist it around to make

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Speaker 2: it where Well, I kind of see where this person's

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Speaker 2: coming from.

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Speaker 1: This.

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Speaker 2: I kind of like doctor Lecter.

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Speaker 3: He's interesting, but isn't that closer to reality? Probably an

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Speaker 3: actual human, three dimensional character that is doing awful thing.

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Speaker 2: It's true, but separated from the fiction part of it.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering why the fascination with true crime and grizzly

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Speaker 2: accounts of crime scenes and serial killer stories that are

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Speaker 2: you know, the subject of lots of nonfiction, and obviously

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Speaker 2: the podcast industry is kind of lousy with the stuff

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Speaker 2: right now, You're welcome, thank you.

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Speaker 1: That is one of the masterminds behind the enormously fascinating

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster podcast.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Well, one aspect of it is is we all like

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Speaker 1: we all like our tragedies at an arm's length, and

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Speaker 1: things like Penny Dreadfuls were super popular. This focus on

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Speaker 1: gore is is somehow linked to our understanding of our

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Speaker 1: own survival. And I love that you mentioned the evolution

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Speaker 1: from faceless monster to three dimensional character, because in older

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Speaker 1: days these things were straight up cautionary tales. Don't go

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Speaker 1: into the woods, the wolf will lead you. Look at

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Speaker 1: this girl of ill repute out late in the mean

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Speaker 1: streets of London. There's a lot of victim blaming in

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and it still happens in horror movies today,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately it happens sometimes with victims of real life killers.

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Speaker 1: But I think part of it. No, you raised a

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Speaker 1: good point when you said you mentioned superiority. I am

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Speaker 1: not that monster, right, I am not that victim. If

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Speaker 1: I'm in a horror movie and I hear a door

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Speaker 1: creak by the front of the haunted cabin. I get

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Speaker 1: back in my Toyota Turcell, hope it starts and drive away.

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Speaker 2: Certainly, don't run up the stairs.

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Speaker 3: You know that yoursell's not gonna run, go go, Who's

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Speaker 3: that You've got to fumble the keys?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and then the car will choke.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, you've got four flat tires, buddy.

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Speaker 1: So maybe it's our way of safely experiencing and exploring

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Speaker 1: these things and then on the dark side. At some point,

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Speaker 1: whenever we as individuals see or hear about a crime

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Speaker 1: or a social transgression, whether it's shoplifting, whether it's cheating

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Speaker 1: on one spouse, or whether it's like swindling someone out

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Speaker 1: of a deal, like we hear about corporate scandals or

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Speaker 1: something we hear about Mark Zuckerberg and whatnot, on some level,

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Speaker 1: we all kind of do a gut check and run

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Speaker 1: it past ourselves and think would I do that? You know,

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Speaker 1: in some cases there's a threshold. It might be, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to steal ten dollars from petty cash

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Speaker 1: at the company, But if I steal one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty million and I get an island, then you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe I'll just won't have a Facebook profile.

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Speaker 3: First thing you have to do is work for a

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Speaker 3: company that has that kind of money.

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Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. But you see what I'm saying. Though.

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Speaker 1: It's like and we ask ourselves, am I someone who

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Speaker 1: would kill? What would it take for me to kill?

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Speaker 1: You know? Like? Would I kill to avenge loss of

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Speaker 1: a relative or a loved one? Would I kill to

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Speaker 1: protect one? That's the answer most people have, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, would I killed just for the thrill of it?

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Speaker 1: Right? Would I kill if I felt there was a

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Speaker 1: divine message compelling me to? Like Abraham and the Bible?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if God asks you to sacrifice your son, I'm

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Speaker 3: just gonna go ahead and say please don't, Please don't.

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Speaker 3: God'll be okay with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's a very strange story. But regardless

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Speaker 1: of this fascination, you may ask yourselves, why are we

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Speaker 1: talking so much about this? Because we're walking toward something stranger.

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Speaker 1: This lion leonization and in some cases deification of serial murders,

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Speaker 1: regardless of what the motivation is, leads to strange and

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Speaker 1: disturbing situations. You know, there are copycat killers, people who

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Speaker 1: use a ongoing killer's activities as a as a cover

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Speaker 1: in some cases to get away with murder and pin

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Speaker 1: it on the other person.

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Speaker 3: Or even an homage to that killer.

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Speaker 1: True. Yeah, And then they're obsessive fans of incarcerated murderers

437
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: and serial killers. They supply prisoners with money, they send

438
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: books and other stuff to them, and in some cases

439
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 1: they marry them while they're in prison. Yep. Charles Manson

440
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: is a great example of that.

441
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 3: Several times.

442
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: I believe you're correct, man, I believe he's been married

443
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: several times. Yep, man. But that's not all. Here's where

444
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: it gets crazy.

445
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 3: Now we're entering the world of serial killer memorabilia. What

446
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: this episode is all about. It's also called murder abilia,

447
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 3: and it's that. Of course, word has just been the

448
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 3: portmanteau portmanteau, yes, of murder and memorabilia, which is it's

449
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 3: fun to say, So what is this? These are relics,

450
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 3: my friend.

451
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're relics. They can be any number of things though,

452
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: right we sort of talked about at the top of

453
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 2: the show. But they can be everything from an artifact

454
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 2: generated by incarcerated serial killer or something they did when

455
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: they were out in the world. But that ups the

456
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: value a lot. If they did it while they were

457
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: actually on their spree at large. Right, A lot of

458
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: these killers get into crafting, you know, in they're in prison.

459
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: Like John Wayne Gacy became an avid painter while he

460
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: was on death row, and his paintings to this day

461
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 2: are I think, some of the most valuable items in

462
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: circulation in this pretty small, close knit community. But it

463
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: can also be artifacts associated with the murder, like, for example,

464
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: dirt from John Wayne Gacy's crawl space you can find

465
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 2: a pair of his clown shoes that he wore. Not

466
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: to make this all about Gaysey, but he is one

467
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: of the biggest kind of stars of this scene. There

468
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: was a an action figure that Jeffrey Dahmer made that

469
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: had human bits baked into it.

470
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: Are you serious?

471
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? All kinds of crazy stuff, man. So basically, anything

472
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: you can think of that would be associated with any crime,

473
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: the more grizzly and the more kind of outlandish, the better.

474
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: That's that's what we're talking about. And then there's this

475
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: whole scene of people trading this stuff, and there's a

476
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: lot of interesting legal ins and outs that go into

477
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: this whole world, right, Ben.

478
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, all three of us have seen this

479
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: stuff firsthand. But we have seen it in museum. Yeah, Noel,

480
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: you went to was it the Murder Museum in California?

481
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: It's the Museum of Death? Museum of Death in Los Angeles?

482
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 2: And where did you guys go in DC?

483
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 3: I believe it was the National Museum of Crime and Punishment.

484
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: Cool, and I think we both saw some stuff from

485
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy in those museums.

486
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.

487
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, ours was like a clown suit and a couple

488
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: other things of his. But it wasn't just serial killers

489
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 3: in the places where we went. It was also the

490
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 3: one about crime in particular. Was you know, the car

491
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: from somebody who went on a crime spree that wasn't

492
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 3: exactly a serial killer, but had murdered a bunch of

493
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: people in the crime spree. A lot of other things

494
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 3: like that.

495
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's still memorabilia, right and weapons from killers

496
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: from the wild West, Yeah, things like that. Yeah.

497
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: The one in Hollywood is a little more on the

498
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: prurient side. I would say it's filled with things like

499
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: crime scene photos of dismembered bodies, a lot of photos

500
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: taken by killers themselves. There's one where a couple went

501
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: on a spree and like dismembered several victims. I think

502
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: it was the woman's ex husband, and they like sever

503
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: the penis and things like that, and there are photographs

504
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: of all this. So this place in particular is not

505
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: for the faint of heart. There's a whole room devoted

506
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: to old like embalming techniques, and there's a video that

507
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: plays on a loop of like an old embalming video

508
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: tutorial that starts off innocently enough and just gets kind

509
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: of dropped dead horrendously graphic after a while. But yeah,

510
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: but they had There's a whole room devoted to the

511
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: Heaven's Gate called the Marshall Apple White Thing, where there

512
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: is kind of a almost a diorama set up where

513
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: there's a body in the bed covered with a purple

514
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: blanket and Apple Whites kind of sermons are playing on

515
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: a loop on a TV, a little small v HS

516
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: TV and it's a bunk bed. It's like a hole

517
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: meant to recreate that mass suicide that happened with the

518
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: Heaven's Gate cult. So really cool, really small. I really

519
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: recommend checking it out, but it's not for the faint

520
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: of heart, but really really interesting stuff, and that the

521
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: thing that was most interesting that I saw. There was

522
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: a notebook that had letters between a killer and an

523
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: art dealer who had been purchasing this killer's work, and

524
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: the killer wrote letters back to this art dealer threatening

525
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: to sue because they had not received payment. And there's

526
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: a real specific reason for why that might have been,

527
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: isn't there, Ben.

528
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: Yes, there is a very specific reason.

529
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: You see.

530
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: We've talked about how almost anything could qualifies this stuff.

531
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: We've talked about how we have seen this stuff in

532
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: person in a museum, But when we get into the

533
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: world of private collectors, when we get into this idea

534
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: of this trade, we immediately enter a ongoing and intense

535
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: debate about legality. Should it be legal to traffic these

536
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 1: items on a private individual scale, or should be more

537
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: of an Indiana Jones approach. Can any of us do

538
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: a good Harrison Ford?

539
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: No, I can't, but that may be good.

540
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a leader.

541
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 3: He's doing a hard shake. I can't do a Harrison Ford.

542
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know what. Well, yeah, just get

543
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: off my plane. Terrorists, Gum, that's great.

544
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: You killed my I didn't kill my wife.

545
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: Fugitive right, Yeah, those are great. Will you see will

546
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: you say.

547
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: The lie these belong in a museum.

548
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: There we go, Indiana Jones, slaves and gentlemen, So yeah,

549
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: should they should they be stuck in a museum? And

550
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: museums can use this stuff under the auspice of educational experience, right,

551
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: We are giving knowledge about times past and their effect

552
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: on the presence, for sure.

553
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: And I think the key here too is that third

554
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 2: party curatorial kind of aspect, right. And the thing I

555
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: was getting at is that the reason that this person

556
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: had not been paid or they would have no legal

557
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: recourse to sue the art dealer that was not paying them,

558
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: is because it's illegal for perpetrators of crimes like this

559
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: to benefit financially from the legacy of their horrific acts.

560
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: Known as the Son of Sam Lungs.

561
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: Well, it certainly didn't work out for the National Crime

562
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 3: Museum in Washington, DC that we visited, because since twenty

563
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: fifteen it has been permanently closed.

564
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, we really wrecked the place, yep. But that's the

565
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 4: thing though, It's like, how do you get this stuff?

566
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: And you know, we'll get into more of this in

567
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: a little bit, but some of it comes from direct

568
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: involvement and direct communication with the criminals and that's when

569
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: you start getting into this gray territory where it's like,

570
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: how do I entice them to make work for me?

571
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: You know, make stuff just for me so that I

572
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: can sell it. I mean, someone is literally, whether it's

573
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: a dealer or the proprietor of a museum or what

574
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:24,239
Speaker 2: have you benefiting financially from the suffering of hundreds thousands potentially.

575
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: Right, and the Son of Sam laws are not federal yet,

576
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: they're state by state and they're a little bit different.

577
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: We can explore some of this, but the primary question

578
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: is should someone who has committed multiple murders or any murder,

579
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: should they be able to profit themselves? Right? Like this

580
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: art dealer, should they sell a painting for five hundred

581
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: dollars and then give four hundred to someone who was

582
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: a cannibal or is a cannible and just happens to

583
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: be locked up now, dormant cannibal, A dormant can accountable

584
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: and waiting. It's weird because, like with Gaysey, Gasey's dead, right,

585
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: so people who are in this industry can sell this

586
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: dead man's stuff to each other and that is not

587
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: illegal right now, but it's frowned upon in two thousand

588
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: and one, eBay stopped all of these traffic, all of

589
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: these sorts of transactions. As you guys remember eBay a

590
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: while back, Oh my gosh, two thousand and one, so

591
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: long ago. Now you could buy all kinds of weird stuff.

592
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

593
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: I bought a haunted accordion, an allegedly haunted accordion.

594
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: I had no idea that accordion was haunted.

595
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: It certainly doesn't sound normal.

596
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 4: Really, it's got sort of a ghostly quality to it.

597
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 4: It was advertised as a haunted accordion. And I'm not

598
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 4: gonna say where I was added life, but it was

599
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 4: pretty late night, was a wee hours of the morning,

600
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 4: and I said, that's what I need.

601
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: What's the haunted markup for an accordion? It's got to

602
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 3: be pretty steep.

603
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: Uh. It was not my best financial decision, but that aside.

604
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: You know, that just says you can. That just shows

605
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: you can buy anything on eBay. But effective May seventeenth,

606
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, items associated with quote notorious individuals

607
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: who have committed murderous crimes within the last one hundred

608
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: years were banned. And now the serious traders started their

609
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: own websites like super not in aught dot com, Serial Killersinc.

610
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: Dot com And as we record this, several people, including

611
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: US Center John Cornyan, are fighting to obliterate this trade.

612
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 1: There's an advocate named Andy Cann who is participating with

613
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: the with legislators to try to bring this trade to

614
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: a legal end. But while they're fighting it, it means

615
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: that it's still legal in most cases.

616
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: I think it was and that kind of got eBay

617
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: to pull the plug on this stuff, or it was

618
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: his a lot of his activism. I think that made

619
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: them force them to make that change.

620
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: And the first question, the first question that we run

621
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: into here is should it be illegal? Should we stop

622
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: people from doing this? And if so why?

623
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 3: We'll get to that right after a quick word from

624
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: our sponsor. Well, I think the obvious answer is yes,

625
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 3: it should be illegal, or at least people think that yes,

626
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: it should be illegal. It feels in your gut, maybe it.

627
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: Does feel wrong. And even the eBay rules sort of

628
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: point to this, because they they do still allow the

629
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: sale of artifacts I think that are older than a

630
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: certain date. I'm not sure exactly what that is, but

631
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: something that would be much more likely to be considered

632
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: a historical artifact, you know, like fossils and things like that, right,

633
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 2: that is legal to distribute on eBay, but this stuff

634
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: is not. And I think the real reason for that

635
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: is that the people affected by this stuff directly are

636
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: still living. It is inherently insensitive, and people are literally

637
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: profiting off of the suffering and torture and ruination of

638
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: people's lives.

639
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does, however, feel like it could be and

640
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: probably is a free speech kind of issue that you're

641
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 3: dealing with here.

642
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: That's one of the arguments that the collectors and many

643
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: many people in support of this trade, or at least

644
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: maybe supports weird word in opposition of banning it or

645
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: spanning it. They say that if we refuse to provide

646
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: incentives for criminals to tell their stories, then accounts of

647
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: some crimes may never be fully told. In some of

648
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: those crimes, like the jam k assassination was when they

649
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: bring up maybe a vital public interest personally, it's just

650
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: one person's opinion. I think that's a little bit disingenuous.

651
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, there's profit to be made a lot of that.

652
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 1: And then to the point to the art collector correspondence

653
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier, the trade becomes really murky when

654
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: we explore how these folks get their items direct contact,

655
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: writing to someone a corrupt prison guard.

656
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: Perhaps it does feel like perhaps there could be a

657
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 3: route somewhere in here. And this is off book, but

658
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 3: it feels like there could be a route somewhere that's

659
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 3: working with people who hold evidence, so law enforcement that

660
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 3: holds evidence and putting it in a museum setting that

661
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: is not for profit. So it feels like there's some

662
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: route there if we want to maintain it just for

663
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 3: a historical record of things not to do as society, right,

664
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 3: I could see.

665
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, yeah, and that makes sense. I feel like

666
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: that's the approach that the museums we've visited have taken.

667
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 3: Or at least I think their or like would would

668
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: say that that's the router taking right, right. Yeah.

669
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: But when it comes to the idea of a killer

670
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: directly profiting off this, it isn't legal.

671
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

672
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: The son of Sam law as we mentioned before, named

673
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: after Sam Berkowitz are still state by state. They came

674
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: They came into effect when rumors started spreading that publishers

675
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: and movie studios were offering sam Berkowitz hundreds of thousands

676
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: of dollars for his story for the rights to the

677
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: Son of Sam's story, and obviously you would want to

678
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: move to stop that. It's not making someone a millionaire

679
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: because they've committed murder doesn't seem like the way a

680
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: society is supposed to work. And and the law was

681
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: invoked in New York eleven times between seventy seven and

682
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven and nineteen ninety. Many of these laws

683
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: currently have been repealed and replaced by other versions. However,

684
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: right now some states still have no active Son of

685
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: sam legislation. This means that in Louisiana, Massachusetts, Missouri, South Carolina,

686
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: and New Hampshire, it is still legal for anyone to

687
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: go to a prison and start some sort of financial

688
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: relationship or write to someone and say, hey, send me this.

689
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: I'll sell this letter and then I'll put money in

690
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: your account, your commissary account.

691
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 3: All right, Well, you messed up millionaires out there that

692
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: are really into this stuff, head on over to one

693
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: of those states and go for it.

694
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: Get this, you guys. There's a really crazy article on

695
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 2: Vice about this very topic that starts off with just

696
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: the description of a group of three hundred people gathered

697
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: at an auction house in Illinois called the James Quick auctioneers.

698
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 2: They're gathered around two dozen paintings that they are burning,

699
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 2: setting on fire. And these paintings were the work of

700
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: convicted and executed murderer John Wayne Gacy, who killed about

701
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 2: two dozen children boys during his career as a serial killer,

702
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: and before he died, his lawyers actually put forty of

703
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: his paintings up for auction and sale at this auctioneer's house.

704
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: So this was kind of like early early on in

705
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 2: this debate, and it turned out that people were interested,

706
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: People were ready to drop, you know, tens of thousands

707
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: of dollars to buy this stuff up. And the people

708
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: that did buy them up decided they were going to

709
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: burn them right there on the premises so that the

710
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: families of Gaysey's victims could have some kind of closure there.

711
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: Wow.

712
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think about that? I remember hearing

713
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: a little bit about this, but I hadn't looked into

714
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: it too deeply. What do you think about that? Is

715
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: that the right move?

716
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: He actually allowed? It was this Joe Roth and Wally Noble,

717
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: who were a local businessmen. They invited the families of

718
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 2: the victims to come and actually throw the paintings into

719
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 2: the fire. Themselves. I think that's pretty admirable.

720
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's admirable. It does seem like a waste of money.

721
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 3: Not a waste of money. It's doing something admirable. It's

722
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 3: just it's crazy that you'd have to spend that much

723
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 3: money to get a hold of it just to burn it.

724
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: That's true, and that therein lies the kind of conundrum

725
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: here because obviously you know they did have to pay

726
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: the fifteen large to get all this stuff.

727
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: Jeez.

728
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: True, And where does it go? I'm not sure what

729
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: the details.

730
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 3: Are there dustin the wind, my friend.

731
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know though. I mean, if if it

732
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 2: was done through Gaysey's.

733
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: Lawyers, right, does the money legally have to benefit a charity? Right?

734
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: Does it have to go to a fund for the

735
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: survivors or the relatives of the victims? Hopefully it seems

736
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: that right now that stuff is functioning on a case

737
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: by case basis, because again there's no hard, explicit federal

738
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: law for this. There have been people who have been

739
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: banned from visiting prisons. We found in our research there's

740
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: a murder bilia trader named g William Harder who was

741
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: banned from visiting any Texas prisons after Texas adopted a

742
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: son of Sam Law, and it was revealed he had

743
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: been paying murderers directly for their belongings. So the stuff

744
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know in this case often

745
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: is going to be where the money's going and how

746
00:43:54,640 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: they are obtaining these items. You know, this is this

747
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: is pretty I don't know, this is pretty filthy stuff.

748
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 3: Yeahtically, it's a terrible roundabout avenue to get rich for

749
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 3: somebody who is insane willing to do these things.

750
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: But then also some people might be saying it's not

751
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: about the money, right. They may be saying, we want

752
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: to keep this in the public eye. Or I just

753
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 1: have a personal fascination because maybe I felt maybe I lived,

754
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: says someone in the California area when this one serial

755
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: killer is operative and this is an important time in

756
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: my life.

757
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: I get that part of it. What I'm saying is

758
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 3: a roundabout way to get rich for the killer. That's

759
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 3: a thing for someone to go like if you're super

760
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 3: poor and you go to jail, but you can sell

761
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 3: all the stuff you murdered all these people with.

762
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: But the son of Sam Law is like that. You

763
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: said they're different in different states, But isn't generally kind

764
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: of the law of the land.

765
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it's generally. The only state that has never

766
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: had any law like that is New Hampshire and the

767
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 1: ones that the other ones on that list they had

768
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: one and then it got struck down, but they're supposedly

769
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: working on a new one.

770
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: So that's the safeguard. I mean, like you know, in theory,

771
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 2: unless you launder it and figure out some roundabout way

772
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 2: of getting paid, you can't really a state can't really

773
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: benefit from this. And I think the big part of

774
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: the reason for this law was so that people couldn't

775
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: sell the rights to their story to like movies, and

776
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: doesn't it you think you mentioned that at the top

777
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: of the show. But people find other ways of getting

778
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: this stuff, don't they, Because if it's coming directly from

779
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: incarcerated criminals and they're making this work, they want to

780
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: find a way for it to benefit them while they're alive.

781
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: Even if they can't make money directly, people will find

782
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: other ways of helping them out in order to get

783
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: this murder bilia right.

784
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: Blue payment in kind let me bring you some stuff, right.

785
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: It's like what you were talking about with people actually

786
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: being banned from going into prisons. Because this is you know,

787
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: it's a sketchy territory, right.

788
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. But there are still legitimate reasons that

789
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: someone would conduct some of this stuff. Like the Vice

790
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: article that you have mentioned has a story about a

791
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: East Coast academic I believe who's conducting research on school shooters,

792
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: and he buys almost every school shooter letter that's available

793
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: because it's part of his research. So that's one argument.

794
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: But still it feels like those moments of understandable rational

795
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: action for this are few and far between, not going

796
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: to say, not gonna say impossible, just few and far between.

797
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: And right now, even though it's sort of a hidden industry,

798
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: right now, you can go, should you so choose, to

799
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 1: these websites, and you can find you can find all

800
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: sorts of stuff on offer. Be aware that some of

801
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: it could quite possibly be fraudulent, can't speak to it,

802
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: and then you have to ask yourself, is it worse

803
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: if it's fraudulent or it's worth Is it worse if

804
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: it's real? So the harder the guy we have mentioned

805
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: who got banned, he noted that he has a minimum

806
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: of one thousand active users on his website. There are

807
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: probably a lot of people who just read about this,

808
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: you know, or vicariously experienced it. I will say, I

809
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: don't know what you guys think, but I will say,

810
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: after researching this episode, I've come to the conclusion that

811
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: I'm not getting I'm not getting you guys anything like

812
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: this for for your birthdays.

813
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm good.

814
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 3: Thank you, Ben, I really appreciate it. Thanks for thinking about.

815
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 4: Us, and likewise not to be too much of a diva,

816
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 4: but please just no sericular stuff for me either.

817
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: Ah.

818
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: Right, And here's the thing. No matter what kind of

819
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: laws get passed, this is gonna this trade is going

820
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: to continue.

821
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, black markets, green markets. I think there are ways

822
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 3: around it, and it will continue to happen.

823
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: And it's impossible to stamp it out because the only

824
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: way you can stamp this stuff out, the most effective

825
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: way to do it would be denying incarcerated prisoners any

826
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: and all access of any sort to the outside world.

827
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 3: But even then, you've got sisters, brothers, fathers, other members

828
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 3: of families of killers who may need money.

829
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: Who are free. I see what you're saying.

830
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know.

831
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: Then what would you do? You would have to entirely

832
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: violate human rights.

833
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, here's a question.

834
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: What about folks that let's say I wanted to design

835
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: a line of serial killer themed trading cards or a

836
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: line of really high detailed serial killer themed action figures.

837
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 2: Who do I have to pay for the right to

838
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 2: do that? Do I have to pay anyone? Am I

839
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: allowed to do that if I'm making it and paying

840
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: for it myself and selling it directly?

841
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah?

842
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: How does that work?

843
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 3: Yeah? Who owns the IP of serial Killers?

844
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: That's the thing, because it is public domain. I mean,

845
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 2: this stuff was reported in the public and obviously the

846
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: killers themselves can't benefit from the IP of their image.

847
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 2: They are public figures.

848
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: I think, you know, oddly, UF the action figure thing

849
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: might might be an easier route because of the trading cards.

850
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: Depending on the image you use, you have to pay

851
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: somebody on h unless it's a mugshotters.

852
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: That's right, That's right. But I'm actually I looked this

853
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 2: up just now. Just look up serial killer action figures.

854
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: There are a ton of them out there, bobbleheads, action figures,

855
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: plush dolls. There's a Jeffrey Dahmer. It's called the Peekaboo

856
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Dahmer Slay set, and it is Jeffrey Dahmer in

857
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 2: his prison reds, you know, the full body suit with

858
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: the ankle, you know, cuffs and everything on, and it

859
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: comes with a little bucket of like it's meant to

860
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: be acid, I guess because he would dissolve bodies and acid.

861
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 3: Od god.

862
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's pretty pretty hideous and tasteless, but is

863
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: but it's it. Is it legal?

864
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: You know? I yeah, I think it is probably technically.

865
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: And there are some people who go further and say

866
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: is it art? Which is an argument maybe for another day,

867
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're absolutely right, it is. It is legal.

868
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: People are doing it. You don't have to pay for

869
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: the rights to a real person. You would have to

870
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,879
Speaker 1: go through a bunch of licensing stuff to make. It's

871
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: actually more difficult to make an action figure of say

872
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: Mike Myers or Jason Voorhees than it is for Jeffrey

873
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: Dahmer or something.

874
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: That's because the license holders of those properties have like

875
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: people they pay to look around online constantly for people

876
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: doing like derivative kind of like there's a lot of

877
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: fan communities that make t shirts and prints based on

878
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 2: popular products, and they can very easily get shut down

879
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: if they're you know, making money off of it. But

880
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: a lot of times the studios and stuff will let

881
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 2: that stuff ride. But it's not the case. I don't

882
00:50:58,640 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: think with that.

883
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a real kick in the pants, you know,

884
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: because these are horrible people and they get action figures.

885
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: There are any action figures of us.

886
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: We can change that. You know, there's a place at

887
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 2: the to Cab Mall here in Atlanta, the North to

888
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: Cab Mall where you can get a three D photograph

889
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: taken of you and your family and they will print

890
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 2: it into an action figure set of you and your

891
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 2: of your family.

892
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: Did you do it?

893
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 3: No?

894
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: I haven't done it yet, but I'm interested.

895
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: We've got to do it.

896
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: We should do it. For the for the team.

897
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: We should do it. We should. Uh, let's see, Paul,

898
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: would you be interested in that?

899
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 3: Yes?

900
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, we got a pretty enthusiastic nod wow from

901
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: Paul Mission control decade wow.

902
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 3: So send us some links.

903
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let us know as well. What what do

904
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: you think? Where do you fall in this debate? Do

905
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: you believe that it is unethical and we should do

906
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: anything possible as a society to prevent this trade. Do

907
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 1: you believe that the past is the past, and these

908
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: things should be allowed to freely float through the world

909
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: as they will. Should they only be a museum's Should

910
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: they be destroyed entirely? Should we obliterate the traces of

911
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: these people like the way the Chinese government obliterated traces

912
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: of people in tianam and Square right, or the way

913
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: you stalin erased people from photographs.

914
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 3: Well, when you think about it that way, it seems

915
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 3: like maybe we shouldn't. But anyway, what do you think?

916
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 1: What do you think? As always, thank you so much

917
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: for tuning in. You can let us know on Instagram

918
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: where we are a conspiracy stuff show.

919
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 3: Or Twitter or Facebook where we are conspiracy stuff. Definitely

920
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 3: put all of your information into Facebook and talk to

921
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 3: us there because your data is completely safe. But it

922
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 3: is a great way to talk to us, especially no,

923
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 3: especially on our here's where it gets crazy. What do

924
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 3: we call that? Our page where we can all hang out.

925
00:52:57,920 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 3: We've been doing all kinds of stuff on there lately.

926
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 3: And just remember, if you are going to go there,

927
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 3: be inquisitive. Yeah, you can be intense, don't you just sick? Yeah,

928
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 3: that's it, okay.

929
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 2: Because we will destroy you. We will wipe all traces

930
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 2: of you from the group.

931
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, okay, So we're not about just putting this

932
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 3: out there. We are not about censorship. But there's just

933
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 3: there's some things that you just don't want to say.

934
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 3: There's a line, and that's the end of this classic episode.

935
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 3: If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,

936
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 3: you can get into contact with us in a number

937
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 3: of different ways. One of the best is to give

938
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 3: us a call. Our number is one eight three three

939
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 3: std WYTK. If you don't want to do that, you

940
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 3: can send us a good old fashioned email.

941
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

942
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 3: Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production

943
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

944
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.