1 00:00:02,990 --> 00:00:06,090 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,940 --> 00:00:14,940 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name's 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: Robert Lamb, and today I'm sharing an interview I conducted 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,580 Speaker 2: with none other than author and journalist Michael Pollan. Most 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,100 Speaker 2: of you are aware of his multiple bestselling and highly 6 00:00:25,140 --> 00:00:30,770 Speaker 2: impactful nonfiction books, including 2001's The Botany of Desire. 2018's 7 00:00:30,810 --> 00:00:34,669 Speaker 2: How to Change Your Mind and 2021's This is Your 8 00:00:34,710 --> 00:00:37,730 Speaker 2: Mind on Plants. We've cited his writings many times on 9 00:00:37,750 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: the show, and if you're like me, you've been hearing 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: his soothing voice on his own audiobooks as well as 11 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:50,180 Speaker 2: NPR interviews for years. His latest book, 2026's A World Appears, 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,670 Speaker 2: concerns human consciousness, but this year also marks the 20th 13 00:00:54,710 --> 00:01:00,450 Speaker 2: anniversary of his groundbreaking 2006 book, The Omnivore's Dilemma. It's 14 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,180 Speaker 2: now out in a new edition with an introduction, brand 15 00:01:03,220 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: new introduction, reflecting on the book's legacy and current place 16 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,420 Speaker 2: in our understanding of food. I'm also pleased to mention 17 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: that there's a new updated audio book that features narration 18 00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:17,110 Speaker 2: by Michael Pollan himself. So without further ado, let's jump 19 00:01:17,330 --> 00:01:22,830 Speaker 2: right into the interview. Hi, Michael. Thanks for coming on 20 00:01:22,850 --> 00:01:23,130 Speaker 2: the show. 21 00:01:23,610 --> 00:01:24,610 Speaker 1: Sure, Rob. Good to be here. 22 00:01:25,290 --> 00:01:27,210 Speaker 2: Excellent. How has your garden performed this year? 23 00:01:28,350 --> 00:01:29,170 Speaker 1: Not a great year. 24 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:29,690 Speaker 2: Yeah? 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had more squirrels than usual, and they wiped 26 00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: out several of my fruit trees. I got like six 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:46,210 Speaker 1: figs and zero persimmons. Tomatoes were okay. But anyway, I've 28 00:01:46,250 --> 00:01:48,350 Speaker 1: got a real war going with the squirrels, and I'm 29 00:01:48,370 --> 00:01:51,210 Speaker 1: not sure exactly how to control them. 30 00:01:51,770 --> 00:01:54,990 Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Are they mostly ground squirrels, ground and tree squirrels? 31 00:01:55,690 --> 00:01:56,790 Speaker 1: I think they're tree squirrels. 32 00:01:57,190 --> 00:01:57,390 Speaker 2: Okay. 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,340 Speaker 1: But they've gotten, I don't know, more plentiful and more 34 00:02:01,380 --> 00:02:06,780 Speaker 1: aggressive in recent times. Anyway, they're not interested in my kale. 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,130 Speaker 1: I have plenty of kale. But very few pests are 36 00:02:11,169 --> 00:02:11,970 Speaker 1: interested in my kale. 37 00:02:13,169 --> 00:02:16,610 Speaker 2: All right. Well, we're here to talk about the 20th 38 00:02:16,650 --> 00:02:19,169 Speaker 2: anniversary of the omnivorous dilemma. I'm going to go ahead 39 00:02:19,190 --> 00:02:21,750 Speaker 2: and hold my copy up here for the folks watching 40 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:26,169 Speaker 2: on Netflix. And I want to start just chatting with 41 00:02:26,210 --> 00:02:28,370 Speaker 2: you here about where the book really takes off. And 42 00:02:28,389 --> 00:02:32,130 Speaker 2: that's with you standing in an Iowa cornfield 20 years ago. 43 00:02:33,030 --> 00:02:35,820 Speaker 2: How did that environment strike you then? And how do 44 00:02:35,860 --> 00:02:36,899 Speaker 2: you look back on it now? 45 00:02:38,540 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: Well, you know, the whole premise of the book was 46 00:02:42,020 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: seeing if I could trace some meals back to their source. 47 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,260 Speaker 1: We've so lost touch with the fact that when we eat, 48 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,279 Speaker 1: we are engaging with the natural world. not with McDonald's, 49 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: not with our local butcher, that all this food begins 50 00:02:56,820 --> 00:03:02,590 Speaker 1: somewhere under the sun, in the soil. And when I 51 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:08,430 Speaker 1: was doing my investigations of the industrial food chain, whether 52 00:03:08,510 --> 00:03:12,169 Speaker 1: I was looking at Coca-Cola or a McDonald's meal or 53 00:03:12,690 --> 00:03:16,450 Speaker 1: a Twinkie or any number of processed foods, that's where 54 00:03:16,490 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: they all began. And so I ended up going out 55 00:03:19,290 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: to Iowa I spent several days there in the company 56 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: of a wonderful farmer named George Naylor, who really explained 57 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: a lot to me about how American agriculture works. And, 58 00:03:30,419 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: you know, Iowa is an amazing place. Endless vistas of 59 00:03:34,540 --> 00:03:41,380 Speaker 1: corn and soy. I mean, gigantic farms now. Farms that 60 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: used to be highly diverse. Yeah, farmers would have their corn. 61 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:51,230 Speaker 1: Maybe they had soy. But they also had some cows 62 00:03:51,290 --> 00:03:55,890 Speaker 1: and they had some chickens and pigs and then sweet corn. 63 00:03:56,690 --> 00:03:58,110 Speaker 1: The kind of corn they grow, by the way, is 64 00:03:58,170 --> 00:04:02,460 Speaker 1: not sweet corn. It's inedible. It's number two field corn, 65 00:04:03,420 --> 00:04:07,860 Speaker 1: which is not food exactly. It's the building blocks of 66 00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:10,820 Speaker 1: processed food. It gets turned into high fructose corn syrup 67 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: and all those strange ingredients on the side packet of 68 00:04:15,260 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: a Twinkie. So I realized there I was at the 69 00:04:19,150 --> 00:04:24,179 Speaker 1: beginning of the food chain. And although since I really 70 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:27,300 Speaker 1: love connecting dots, it's kind of like what I do, 71 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:34,380 Speaker 1: I realized behind those cornfields were oil fields. Because the 72 00:04:34,420 --> 00:04:38,099 Speaker 1: way you grow that much corn, you need a lot 73 00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: of fossil fuel, mostly in the fertilizer, the ammonium nitrate 74 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,099 Speaker 1: that the corn just sucks up and turns into food. 75 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:49,930 Speaker 1: but also all the diesel that is involved in the process, 76 00:04:49,970 --> 00:04:52,790 Speaker 1: the fossil fuel that goes into processing and harvesting and 77 00:04:52,970 --> 00:04:57,220 Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was a 78 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: big moment, my first moment in an Iowa cornfield. And 79 00:05:02,140 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: they're amazing places because the corn now grows so close together. 80 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,980 Speaker 1: The way we get these incredible yields that we get now, 81 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,550 Speaker 1: hundreds of bushels per acre, is that we figured out 82 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:18,330 Speaker 1: a way to breed corn so that, um, it could 83 00:05:18,450 --> 00:05:21,750 Speaker 1: live like cheek by jowl with other corn plants and 84 00:05:22,470 --> 00:05:25,890 Speaker 1: they wouldn't compete, um, because they were genetically identical. So, 85 00:05:26,110 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: so they didn't race for the sun, um, which would 86 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: have let, left them leggy and they'd fall over and 87 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: things like that. So, um, it's like a city of corn. 88 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's, it's like Manhattan. It's so, um, so, 89 00:05:39,380 --> 00:05:43,620 Speaker 1: so tight. You can't walk between these plants. Um, So, yeah, 90 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,609 Speaker 1: it was a big moment. I tried eating a corn 91 00:05:45,630 --> 00:05:49,750 Speaker 1: cob and almost broke my teeth. It was pretty nasty. 92 00:05:51,410 --> 00:05:55,770 Speaker 1: But it's an amazing plant. It's amazing what it can do. 93 00:05:56,650 --> 00:05:59,710 Speaker 1: It's had incredible success in our world because of its, 94 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, if you want to maximize carbohydrate calories on 95 00:06:04,580 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: a piece of land anywhere in the world, corn is 96 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: the way to go. 97 00:06:09,010 --> 00:06:11,790 Speaker 2: In revisiting your book, I was just taken aback again 98 00:06:11,830 --> 00:06:16,229 Speaker 2: at just how sort of fundamentally weird and unnatural corn 99 00:06:16,270 --> 00:06:18,910 Speaker 2: as we know it is, even like removed from the 100 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:21,150 Speaker 2: modern and industrial trappings of the scenario. 101 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's gone through this transformation. I mean, if 102 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: you look at the kind of corn that was grown 103 00:06:27,100 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: in the 1920s, say, it's really a different plant. You know, 104 00:06:32,980 --> 00:06:36,270 Speaker 1: we have thrown... It's like we put all our chips 105 00:06:36,350 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: on this one plant. This is what we did the 106 00:06:38,380 --> 00:06:44,620 Speaker 1: most research on, the most breeding work. And corn is 107 00:06:45,220 --> 00:06:48,620 Speaker 1: a very good plant to invest in because you can 108 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,890 Speaker 1: really protect your intellectual property. An F1 hybrid, as they're called, 109 00:06:56,510 --> 00:06:58,570 Speaker 1: will not come true. In other words, if you took 110 00:06:58,610 --> 00:07:02,330 Speaker 1: the seeds from the kind of hybrid corn we're growing 111 00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: and planted it, you would not get the incredible yield 112 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: and all these qualities that we bred into it. It 113 00:07:09,110 --> 00:07:14,690 Speaker 1: would revert to some earlier, crummier version of itself. So 114 00:07:14,770 --> 00:07:18,190 Speaker 1: because of the nature of hybridization and corn in particular, 115 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:22,750 Speaker 1: you could, it paid, you got your investment back because 116 00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:25,830 Speaker 1: nobody could rip you off by stealing your seeds. And 117 00:07:25,890 --> 00:07:27,929 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the reasons so much capital 118 00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:30,770 Speaker 1: went into corn, into breeding it. But it was a 119 00:07:30,830 --> 00:07:34,900 Speaker 1: government plan too. I mean, the government, Since the 70s, 120 00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:41,230 Speaker 1: where we really have a change in government policy around agriculture, 121 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: moving toward, you know, Earl Butts was the Secretary of Agriculture, 122 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,860 Speaker 1: you know, plant fence row to fence row, get bigger, 123 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:55,180 Speaker 1: get out. You know, just this consolidation, yield at all costs, 124 00:07:56,910 --> 00:07:59,530 Speaker 1: because he was trying very hard to make food cheap. 125 00:08:00,190 --> 00:08:04,700 Speaker 1: And cheap food is always popular. In our case, it's 126 00:08:04,740 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: had terrible side effects. I mean, it's led to obesity 127 00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: and type 2 diabetes and all the problems that are 128 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,500 Speaker 1: traced to the Western diet that corn really directly contributes to. 129 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,430 Speaker 1: I mean, we're subsidizing high fructose corn syrup, which is 130 00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:25,630 Speaker 1: giving people diabetes, which the government then pays to treat. 131 00:08:26,630 --> 00:08:28,250 Speaker 1: So it's kind of a screwed up situation. 132 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:32,450 Speaker 2: You describe a food chain in our country that's just 133 00:08:32,590 --> 00:08:35,230 Speaker 2: fundamentally linked to both corn and fossil fuels at pretty 134 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:39,290 Speaker 2: much every level. 20 years on, has this changed much? 135 00:08:40,570 --> 00:08:45,050 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to report that it hasn't. The way we 136 00:08:45,490 --> 00:08:51,300 Speaker 1: subsidize agriculture has changed somewhat. We've gone from writing subsidy 137 00:08:51,340 --> 00:08:56,460 Speaker 1: checks to farmers to crop insurance. but it's still set 138 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,179 Speaker 1: up in such a way that it just increases this 139 00:09:00,260 --> 00:09:04,740 Speaker 1: path dependence on corn. Nobody's getting out of corn. I mean, 140 00:09:04,780 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: there are a couple innovative farmers who have figured out 141 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,090 Speaker 1: ways to bring animals back on the land, for example, 142 00:09:14,210 --> 00:09:18,130 Speaker 1: but we haven't diversified these monocultures. I mean, what you 143 00:09:18,150 --> 00:09:22,089 Speaker 1: would have hoped would happen in the 20 years since 144 00:09:22,150 --> 00:09:26,610 Speaker 1: Omnivore's Dilemma is a return to diversified farms. Because we 145 00:09:26,670 --> 00:09:30,490 Speaker 1: know diversified farms don't need the chemicals to fight the pests. 146 00:09:31,429 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: You really only need those chemicals because you have a monoculture. 147 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:42,020 Speaker 1: Pests love monocultures. Their populations explode because there's so much food. 148 00:09:42,820 --> 00:09:46,570 Speaker 1: But if you truly rotate, either in time or space, 149 00:09:46,710 --> 00:09:51,500 Speaker 1: you break that chain of... of population growth and you 150 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,300 Speaker 1: don't need the chemicals that we're now spraying on our fields. 151 00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: um so no things haven't changed i mean i think 152 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,230 Speaker 1: in the culture things have changed around food i think 153 00:10:03,250 --> 00:10:07,550 Speaker 1: there's a lot more awareness around uh where our food 154 00:10:07,610 --> 00:10:12,010 Speaker 1: comes from and curiosity about it you do have um 155 00:10:12,850 --> 00:10:18,380 Speaker 1: probably $ 75 billion alternative food economy if you roll together 156 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: organic and grass-fed or pastured animal agriculture and local food. 157 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:29,770 Speaker 1: So there are people who are checking out of the 158 00:10:29,830 --> 00:10:33,929 Speaker 1: industrial food economy, and that number continues to grow. But 159 00:10:33,970 --> 00:10:39,390 Speaker 1: the main thrust of American agriculture hasn't really been touched. 160 00:10:40,590 --> 00:10:42,329 Speaker 2: There are a number of questions I feel like I 161 00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:45,490 Speaker 2: could ask you about the cultural, even political impact of 162 00:10:45,550 --> 00:10:48,189 Speaker 2: the book, The Omnivore's Dilemma. But these are, of course, 163 00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:50,790 Speaker 2: questions that you really answer very well in the new 164 00:10:50,830 --> 00:10:53,590 Speaker 2: introduction to the book, which I encourage everyone to pick up. 165 00:10:54,410 --> 00:10:58,180 Speaker 2: But I was chatting with my wife before the interview here, 166 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: and we were reflecting on how our own diets really 167 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: began to shift in the wake of The Omnivore's Dilemma 168 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,020 Speaker 2: in direct response to the book, but also the cultural 169 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: waves that this book helped generate when it came out. 170 00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:14,210 Speaker 2: And so, you know, in the new intro, you discussed that, 171 00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:16,170 Speaker 2: you know, not all the earlier promises of the food 172 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:19,610 Speaker 2: movement panned out, you know, certainly politically, as everyone had hoped. 173 00:11:20,130 --> 00:11:22,670 Speaker 2: But I hope enough people tell you just how impactful 174 00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:26,060 Speaker 2: the ideas presented here were for their own personal relationship 175 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 2: with food. 176 00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:29,740 Speaker 1: I hear that all the time, and it's incredibly gratifying. 177 00:11:30,179 --> 00:11:33,179 Speaker 1: And it's people being more sensitive to where their food 178 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: comes from, how it was produced, taking an interest in farming, 179 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,050 Speaker 1: you know. When I wrote that book, most Americans, if 180 00:11:41,090 --> 00:11:43,090 Speaker 1: you asked them where their food came from, would say 181 00:11:43,170 --> 00:11:46,620 Speaker 1: from the supermarket. And they really didn't think past that. 182 00:11:46,820 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: And our supermarkets are really opaque. You know, usually the 183 00:11:50,780 --> 00:11:54,780 Speaker 1: meat comes, you know, shrink-wrapped. There are no bones anymore. 184 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: So it just looks like this piece of protoplasm without any, 185 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,939 Speaker 1: you know, no connection to animals, no reminder that it 186 00:12:00,980 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: was an animal. We no longer see butchers at work 187 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,260 Speaker 1: cutting up things. And so. 188 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: The irony is that when I wrote this book, early 2000s, 189 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,260 Speaker 1: the fact that you needed an investigative journalist to know 190 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,479 Speaker 1: where your food came from, when you think about it, 191 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,810 Speaker 1: that's crazy. You go back to the turn of, say, 192 00:12:24,809 --> 00:12:28,990 Speaker 1: 1920 or 1900, and 40% of Americans were farmers. And 193 00:12:29,210 --> 00:12:32,030 Speaker 1: everybody knew a farmer or had one in their family 194 00:12:32,090 --> 00:12:35,770 Speaker 1: or visited a farmer. But agriculture now is just something 195 00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: that happens far away. And so I think one of 196 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: the legacies of the book that I'm very proud of 197 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:48,420 Speaker 1: is it increased our consciousness about food and where it 198 00:12:48,460 --> 00:12:52,190 Speaker 1: comes from. I think along with some chefs who were 199 00:12:52,210 --> 00:12:55,829 Speaker 1: doing something similar at the same time, it's shown a 200 00:12:55,929 --> 00:12:59,550 Speaker 1: light on farmers and how important they are to our 201 00:12:59,610 --> 00:13:02,870 Speaker 1: culture and how dependent we are on them and how 202 00:13:02,950 --> 00:13:07,329 Speaker 1: hard they work and how innovative some of them are. Um, so, 203 00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:11,050 Speaker 1: you know, that, um, when I hear from farmers, especially that's, 204 00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:15,390 Speaker 1: that's really gratifying. Um, and they talk about, you know, uh, 205 00:13:15,970 --> 00:13:22,530 Speaker 1: before Omnivore and after Omnivore and, uh, and certainly farmers markets, uh, and, uh, CSAs, 206 00:13:22,570 --> 00:13:25,790 Speaker 1: you know, subscription farms. Um, I think they got a 207 00:13:25,809 --> 00:13:30,090 Speaker 1: big boost from it and, and people who also, um, are, 208 00:13:30,270 --> 00:13:34,010 Speaker 1: are producing grass fed or pastured livestock. which was not 209 00:13:34,070 --> 00:13:36,690 Speaker 1: really a thing in 2006. It was very hard to 210 00:13:36,750 --> 00:13:39,730 Speaker 1: find pastured eggs or, uh, you know, these are eggs 211 00:13:39,770 --> 00:13:42,290 Speaker 1: from chickens that graze on grass and get to eat 212 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:46,570 Speaker 1: bugs and they're much more flavorful and much more humane or, um, 213 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,699 Speaker 1: grass fed, um, beef, um, which was also very hard 214 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,500 Speaker 1: to find. And now you can find it at, at 215 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,420 Speaker 1: Whole Foods at least and many other places as well. So, um, yeah, 216 00:13:58,460 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: that gratifies me a lot, but I still feel frustrated that, um, 217 00:14:02,750 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: The changes in policy we were seeking, we didn't have 218 00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:09,239 Speaker 1: great luck with. And I think we were naive. I 219 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: was naive. I'm not a political activist. I'm a journalist. 220 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,709 Speaker 1: And when the industry decided to fight back, which took 221 00:14:18,750 --> 00:14:21,930 Speaker 1: a couple of years, it really isn't until 2008 or so. 222 00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:28,010 Speaker 1: And it was, I really think on the release of Food, Inc., 223 00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:32,490 Speaker 1: the documentary, which was a big deal in, I think 224 00:14:32,510 --> 00:14:37,030 Speaker 1: it was 2008. And that movie was based half on 225 00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:41,430 Speaker 1: Omnivore's Dilemma, half on Eric Schlosser's great book, Fast Food Nation. 226 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: And it was kind of a mind meld of those 227 00:14:43,980 --> 00:14:48,700 Speaker 1: two books. And at that point, the industry woke up 228 00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: and started fighting us. And I don't think we were 229 00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:56,940 Speaker 1: well prepared. And there are two powerful lobbies involved here. 230 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,330 Speaker 1: You have what we call big food, which is all 231 00:14:59,350 --> 00:15:04,030 Speaker 1: the food processors, uh, the manufacturers, the fast food companies. 232 00:15:04,410 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: And then you have big ag, uh, which is, you know, 233 00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:11,900 Speaker 1: represents all the monoculture farmers, but really represents the people 234 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,140 Speaker 1: who sell to monoculture farmers. Um, the, the, the makers 235 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: of equipment, the, um, the people who sell fertilizer and seed, uh, 236 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: the Monsantos of the world, or then they were called Monsanto. 237 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,550 Speaker 1: Now it's Bayer. Um, and, uh, so we had quite 238 00:15:28,570 --> 00:15:31,470 Speaker 1: a fight on our hands and, and Obama, you know, 239 00:15:31,550 --> 00:15:33,750 Speaker 1: went through this. I mean, he was very sympathetic to 240 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: the critique of, of, uh, of the industrial food chain 241 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: that I was writing about. And in fact, I quoted, uh, 242 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,940 Speaker 1: an article of mine approvingly during the campaign in 2008, 243 00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:48,700 Speaker 1: but very quickly. And then Michelle Obama, of course, made 244 00:15:48,740 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: this her issue. And she planted an organic garden at 245 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,780 Speaker 1: the white house and worked really hard to reform school 246 00:15:54,820 --> 00:15:59,300 Speaker 1: lunch and made some progress there. Um, but they got 247 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: slammed by the industry at every moment. I remember when 248 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: she put in her garden, a chemical industry front group 249 00:16:09,450 --> 00:16:13,090 Speaker 1: attacked her as organic limousine liberals and said she should 250 00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:15,970 Speaker 1: be using pesticides, even though she didn't need any pesticides 251 00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:21,050 Speaker 1: because it was a diversified garden. So there were a 252 00:16:21,150 --> 00:16:25,630 Speaker 1: few steps in the right direction during the Obama administration, 253 00:16:25,710 --> 00:16:30,850 Speaker 1: but I regret to say that he pulled back under 254 00:16:30,890 --> 00:16:37,810 Speaker 1: pressure a couple times. So anyway, it's taught me something. 255 00:16:38,690 --> 00:16:40,470 Speaker 1: It's taught me a lot about politics and how it 256 00:16:40,530 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: works and how money plays a role in politics. Because 257 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: this system really doesn't serve anyone, with the one exception 258 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:55,980 Speaker 1: that it does provide lots of cheap calories. I know 259 00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: they don't feel cheap today because we have this inflation, 260 00:16:59,370 --> 00:17:03,930 Speaker 1: but the fact that Americans can eat, you know, 200 261 00:17:03,930 --> 00:17:09,510 Speaker 1: pounds of meat a year, no people in the history 262 00:17:09,530 --> 00:17:13,209 Speaker 1: of humankind have been able to eat meat so profligately. 263 00:17:13,330 --> 00:17:16,950 Speaker 1: I mean, meat is a luxury good and usually a 264 00:17:17,010 --> 00:17:20,110 Speaker 1: sign of, you know, status or wealth in most cultures. 265 00:17:21,090 --> 00:17:23,390 Speaker 1: But we can have meat three times a day, and 266 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: many people do. So that's the one great accomplishment of 267 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:35,420 Speaker 1: the industrial food system is cheapness. And the problem is, though, 268 00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:39,570 Speaker 1: it has so many externalities. I mean, what it's done 269 00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:43,270 Speaker 1: to the soil in Iowa, half the topsoil in Iowa 270 00:17:43,330 --> 00:17:47,410 Speaker 1: is just gone. That's how much they had. You've got 271 00:17:47,450 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: chemical runoff. You have very high rates of cancer in Iowa. 272 00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: You see this happening right now with the politics shifting 273 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,619 Speaker 1: in Iowa. A lot of that is over water and 274 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: what nitrogen fertilizer is doing to the water supply and 275 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: what glyphosate is doing to the farmers. This is a 276 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: weed killer that has been linked to lymphoma and the 277 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:18,689 Speaker 1: Trump administration is urging us to eat more of. basically. So, 278 00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:22,470 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to paint, you know, such 279 00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:24,870 Speaker 1: a dark picture of things, but we still have work 280 00:18:24,890 --> 00:18:25,109 Speaker 1: to do. 281 00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: Another thing about the book that definitely influenced it out 282 00:18:40,060 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: of me was it was one of these books that 283 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,340 Speaker 2: really made me rethink about not only the food chain 284 00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:47,250 Speaker 2: and and the crops like corn or where our meat 285 00:18:47,330 --> 00:18:50,100 Speaker 2: comes from, but also like what we are like thinking 286 00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:52,660 Speaker 2: of ourselves as this kind of, you know, essentially still 287 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: a biologically a hunter gatherer who is just in a 288 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,620 Speaker 2: different like non-hunter gatherer world that we've made for ourselves. Yeah. 289 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: Um, you know, I looked at it, I looked at 290 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,430 Speaker 1: this whole question of if we are eating so much corn, 291 00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:10,770 Speaker 1: is it, is there any way to measure that? And, um, 292 00:19:11,670 --> 00:19:15,340 Speaker 1: And I learned that, in fact, you can take a 293 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:21,980 Speaker 1: sample of hair or skin or nails and put it 294 00:19:22,020 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: through a mass spectrometer and actually determine how much of 295 00:19:26,140 --> 00:19:28,980 Speaker 1: the carbon, and of course, we're mostly, right, the carbon 296 00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:33,010 Speaker 1: life form, it's the bulk of our bodies are carbon, 297 00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:37,610 Speaker 1: how much of that was originally derived from corn. And 298 00:19:37,630 --> 00:19:39,889 Speaker 1: I didn't know this was possible, but corn has a 299 00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: very special isotope. And it's recognizable. And this scientist at Berkeley, 300 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: where I was teaching at the time, said, oh yeah, 301 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: we can do this. And he's done it himself. And 302 00:19:54,619 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 1: he said, we just look like corn chips. That's who 303 00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:07,790 Speaker 1: we are. Yeah, so it's penetrated us, you know, deeply. Deeply, deeply, deeply. Now, 304 00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:10,470 Speaker 1: is that bad to be made of corn? Not necessarily, 305 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:12,470 Speaker 1: but I think it would be a sign of good 306 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,780 Speaker 1: health if there were more diversity in the diet. One 307 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: of the things we've learned since 2006, it really wasn't 308 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,420 Speaker 1: on the radar then, is the importance of the gut 309 00:20:21,460 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: microbiome to our health. And we have this semi-organ in 310 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,230 Speaker 1: our large intestine full of bacteria, trillions of bacteria, that 311 00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:36,530 Speaker 1: are producing really important chemicals that we need to be healthy, 312 00:20:36,910 --> 00:20:41,889 Speaker 1: that are training our immune system and managing our immune system. 313 00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:44,630 Speaker 1: They're doing all sorts of things for us. And they 314 00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:49,139 Speaker 1: depend on a diet of plants, not processed corn, but 315 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:55,020 Speaker 1: real plants, because these microbes need fiber to ferment. And 316 00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: they ferment fiber into all these metabolites that are critically 317 00:20:58,740 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: important to our health. And processed food does not feed them. 318 00:21:03,420 --> 00:21:09,250 Speaker 1: because it's all easily absorbed fats and sugars that enter 319 00:21:09,290 --> 00:21:12,290 Speaker 1: the bloodstream in the small intestine and don't get to 320 00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:19,790 Speaker 1: the large intestine. So it's interesting, this finding, because it's 321 00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:22,510 Speaker 1: telling us what we knew then, that we should be 322 00:21:22,770 --> 00:21:26,869 Speaker 1: eating more plants, less meat, less fat. But now we 323 00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:29,300 Speaker 1: have another reason for it or another explanation for why 324 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:29,910 Speaker 1: it's important. 325 00:21:31,450 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: Coming back to foraging, I love your tidbits about foraging 326 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,660 Speaker 2: chanterelles in Northern California, especially when you had the one 327 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: that you were tempted to drive back across the bridge 328 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,820 Speaker 2: to get identified. Yeah. 329 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,530 Speaker 1: So, you know, part of the book is about the 330 00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:49,690 Speaker 1: industrial food chain. And then I start looking at other 331 00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:54,869 Speaker 1: food chains and I culminate in the most primordial food chain, 332 00:21:54,890 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: which is food that we hunt, gather ourselves. And so 333 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,700 Speaker 1: I had to learn a bunch of skills I didn't have. 334 00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: One was mushroom hunting, and another was hunting hunting. I 335 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: went hunting for feral pigs or wild boar. And this 336 00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: was the most enjoyable part of the book. Probably the 337 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:19,940 Speaker 1: most enjoyable to read as well, but certainly the most 338 00:22:20,030 --> 00:22:24,610 Speaker 1: enjoyable to research and write. And mushroom hunting's really interesting. 339 00:22:27,530 --> 00:22:30,250 Speaker 1: It puts you back in touch with a head that 340 00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:33,730 Speaker 1: we once had, which knows how to scan a landscape 341 00:22:33,780 --> 00:22:39,660 Speaker 1: for a very particular pattern. And mushroom hunters talk about 342 00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:43,379 Speaker 1: getting your eyes on. So you enter the woods and 343 00:22:43,420 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: you don't see anything. You just see woods. And then 344 00:22:46,940 --> 00:22:50,790 Speaker 1: gradually you start seeing there's a visual pattern tied to 345 00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:53,930 Speaker 1: a chanterelle or to a porcini or something like that. 346 00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:57,740 Speaker 1: And it's called the pop-out effect. And once you've seen 347 00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:02,030 Speaker 1: it once, your brain has erected a kind of filter 348 00:23:02,109 --> 00:23:04,450 Speaker 1: on the landscape and it will pop out at you 349 00:23:05,170 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: as you walk around once you have your eyes on. 350 00:23:07,869 --> 00:23:11,820 Speaker 1: It's hard to get your eyes on. But the professionals 351 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,940 Speaker 1: I was hunting with would always find one, not pick 352 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,740 Speaker 1: it in a certain area in a like six foot 353 00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: by six foot square and say, okay, there's one in there. 354 00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: See if you can find it. And it would take 355 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: me a really long time for something that they just saw. 356 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:30,660 Speaker 1: But once I saw it the first time, I could 357 00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:34,990 Speaker 1: see it everywhere. And that was incredibly satisfying. It's a 358 00:23:35,030 --> 00:23:37,510 Speaker 1: wonderful way to be in the woods with something to 359 00:23:37,570 --> 00:23:40,709 Speaker 1: do as opposed to just, you know, forest bathing or 360 00:23:40,750 --> 00:23:46,129 Speaker 1: walking through it. But having the confidence to eat a 361 00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:50,490 Speaker 1: mushroom you have found yourself is a whole other question. 362 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,129 Speaker 1: And so I went, I started looking for mushrooms everywhere 363 00:23:54,170 --> 00:23:56,010 Speaker 1: I went. And I do a lot of hiking in 364 00:23:56,030 --> 00:24:00,190 Speaker 1: the Berkeley Hills. And I found what I was like 90% 365 00:24:00,190 --> 00:24:05,530 Speaker 1: sure was some big, fat, beautiful orange chanterelles. And I 366 00:24:05,570 --> 00:24:06,970 Speaker 1: looked them up in the books when I got home. 367 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:08,570 Speaker 1: I picked them. And I looked them up in the 368 00:24:08,609 --> 00:24:11,149 Speaker 1: books when I got home. And they looked right. And 369 00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:15,649 Speaker 1: the gills matched. Or the pseudo gills matched. And the 370 00:24:15,710 --> 00:24:19,770 Speaker 1: color matched. And the smell matched. But I didn't have. 371 00:24:20,180 --> 00:24:24,460 Speaker 1: the guts to eat it, um, until I could show 372 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,909 Speaker 1: it to somebody who knew, who knew his stuff. And, uh, 373 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: and he said, yes, that's a chanterelle. From the moment 374 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: that happened, I have total confidence when I find a chanterelle, 375 00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: I will eat it. Um, so there's a kind of 376 00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:41,139 Speaker 1: knowledge that I think has to be conveyed human to 377 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,970 Speaker 1: human on something as consequential as eating a wild mushroom. Um, 378 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,380 Speaker 1: And the mushrooms I will find and eat myself now 379 00:24:50,940 --> 00:24:56,290 Speaker 1: are really pretty limited. It's chanterelles, porcini, black trumpets. I mean, 380 00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:58,710 Speaker 1: those are really the main ones. Chicken of the woods, 381 00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:02,490 Speaker 1: I guess. And that's all because I had a human 382 00:25:02,530 --> 00:25:06,030 Speaker 1: interaction with someone who knew them. And now I trust myself. 383 00:25:06,490 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: But I wouldn't on anything else that I hadn't had 384 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: that experience with. So that's kind of curious. It's an 385 00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: argument for the limitations of book learning. 386 00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:18,190 Speaker 2: I like what you said, though, about the human connection, 387 00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:20,389 Speaker 2: because I think my wife does a little bit of 388 00:25:20,430 --> 00:25:24,899 Speaker 2: mushroom foraging and mostly for chandrels and chicken woods. And 389 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 2: I'm a bit more nervous about the identification process. And, 390 00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:31,660 Speaker 2: you know, we have all these different apps and so 391 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:33,739 Speaker 2: forth that do ID, but really most of it ends 392 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: up falling back on, OK, show the photo to this 393 00:25:36,980 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: person and we'll let that person tell us if we 394 00:25:39,340 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: can trust it or not. 395 00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: Well, it's funny. The other mushroom I now have confidence 396 00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:48,730 Speaker 1: for is morels, which are rare and hard to find. 397 00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:52,450 Speaker 1: But one day, my wife was taking a hike with 398 00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:57,690 Speaker 1: a friend along a new rail trail in Northwest Connecticut, 399 00:25:57,990 --> 00:26:02,740 Speaker 1: and they found a massive flush of morels. And they 400 00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: picked them, and they had pounds of them, and she 401 00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:08,740 Speaker 1: brought them home. And this is before I learned anything 402 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,100 Speaker 1: about mushroom hunting. And I said, you know, are we 403 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,340 Speaker 1: going to eat these? You know, I don't feel comfortable 404 00:26:14,380 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: eating these. I mean, how do we know these are 405 00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:18,139 Speaker 1: really morels? And she said, well, my friend thought they 406 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,340 Speaker 1: were and they look right and they smell right. And 407 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,350 Speaker 1: I said, I have an idea. Your friend had half 408 00:26:23,390 --> 00:26:25,109 Speaker 1: the bag. You had the other half of the bag. 409 00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:28,609 Speaker 1: Let's wait till tomorrow. Presumably he's eating them for dinner. 410 00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:29,810 Speaker 2: Yes. 411 00:26:29,970 --> 00:26:32,650 Speaker 1: And we'll call him in the morning. And if he's 412 00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: still alive, we will eat them. And that's exactly what happened. 413 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: Since then, I'm pretty confident about morels. 414 00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:45,030 Speaker 2: Well, speaking of mushrooms, I'd be remiss if I didn't 415 00:26:45,090 --> 00:26:47,790 Speaker 2: ask you at least one question about another of your 416 00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:51,810 Speaker 2: most influential books, 2018's How to Change Your Mind, which 417 00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:56,350 Speaker 2: I know personally impacted countless readers like myself, but also 418 00:26:56,390 --> 00:27:00,130 Speaker 2: played a major role in helping to reignite mainstream acceptance 419 00:27:00,250 --> 00:27:04,050 Speaker 2: and scientific study of psychedelics in the U.S. So we're 420 00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:05,990 Speaker 2: not even 10 years into the life of that book, 421 00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:09,810 Speaker 2: but how would you compare its impact with the impact 422 00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:10,790 Speaker 2: of The Omnivore's Dilemma? 423 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,260 Speaker 1: Well, to me, it's really interesting and kind of surprising 424 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: that two books I wrote ignited a conversation, a cultural conversation, uh, 425 00:27:21,810 --> 00:27:24,989 Speaker 1: one about food, one about psychedelics. And I don't know 426 00:27:25,050 --> 00:27:27,830 Speaker 1: why that is. Um, it may have to do with 427 00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:30,550 Speaker 1: the fact that as journalists, we're trained to kind of 428 00:27:30,609 --> 00:27:33,550 Speaker 1: have some feel for the zeitgeist and where it's, where 429 00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:37,010 Speaker 1: it's blowing. And, um, and you know, we're supposed to 430 00:27:37,050 --> 00:27:40,929 Speaker 1: be able to look around a corner and, um, I 431 00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:42,930 Speaker 1: don't know that that's what it is or just good 432 00:27:42,970 --> 00:27:45,820 Speaker 1: luck to. I mean, in both cases, I felt a 433 00:27:45,859 --> 00:27:49,820 Speaker 1: wave building under me. When I was writing Omnivore's Dilemma, 434 00:27:49,859 --> 00:27:52,900 Speaker 1: if you asked my wife, she would say, that whole 435 00:27:52,940 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: time you're writing that, you kept saying, I got to 436 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,740 Speaker 1: get this book out. I'm late. I'm late. I'm late. 437 00:27:56,830 --> 00:28:00,370 Speaker 1: Because there was something happening in the culture. It just 438 00:28:00,430 --> 00:28:03,590 Speaker 1: hadn't reached a very high level. Two books had come 439 00:28:03,650 --> 00:28:06,190 Speaker 1: out before mine that were influential. One was Fast Food 440 00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:08,330 Speaker 1: Nation by Eric Schlosser. And the other was a book, 441 00:28:08,590 --> 00:28:11,629 Speaker 1: a wonderful book that taught me a lot. by Marion 442 00:28:11,690 --> 00:28:14,830 Speaker 1: Nestle called Food Politics. And those both came out a 443 00:28:14,850 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 1: couple years before Omnivore's Dilemma. But there was a lot 444 00:28:17,410 --> 00:28:22,180 Speaker 1: of interest in slow food and farmer's markets and stuff, 445 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: so I felt late. With psychedelics, I was like, where 446 00:28:25,619 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: is everybody? This is such a great topic and no 447 00:28:28,180 --> 00:28:37,020 Speaker 1: one's writing about it, except in the fringe press. But 448 00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:45,100 Speaker 1: comparing the two, the ripples from both, psychedelics has made 449 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: more progress in changing the culture in winning acceptance I 450 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,740 Speaker 1: think than change we've seen in the food system and 451 00:28:55,790 --> 00:29:01,709 Speaker 1: the reason is that psychedelics as a therapy psychedelics as 452 00:29:01,790 --> 00:29:07,130 Speaker 1: a therapy doesn't have any opposition so there's a kind 453 00:29:07,150 --> 00:29:13,150 Speaker 1: of open field politically and which has been enhanced by 454 00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:17,710 Speaker 1: the fact that we now have a right-wing constituency interested 455 00:29:17,730 --> 00:29:21,830 Speaker 1: in psychedelics. The president, I mean, signed an executive order 456 00:29:21,870 --> 00:29:25,330 Speaker 1: a couple months ago, speeding the approval of psychedelics. 457 00:29:25,890 --> 00:29:26,190 Speaker 2: Why? 458 00:29:26,530 --> 00:29:29,750 Speaker 1: Well, Joe Rogan sent him a text was one reason, 459 00:29:29,930 --> 00:29:33,550 Speaker 1: and he needed Joe Rogan's audience, or was hoping to 460 00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:38,150 Speaker 1: reclaim it after losing it. But also because veterans had 461 00:29:38,190 --> 00:29:42,660 Speaker 1: a stake in psychedelics. Veterans were finding them very helpful 462 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: in treating their PTSD. And for some reason, Big Pharma, 463 00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:53,430 Speaker 1: the big drug companies, did not get involved either as 464 00:29:53,490 --> 00:29:55,990 Speaker 1: a lobby to stop it because it is a threat 465 00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:59,580 Speaker 1: to their business model in some ways. I mean, certainly 466 00:29:59,620 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: to SSRI antidepressants, which is a huge category for them. 467 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,740 Speaker 1: But they just kind of hung back and were watching 468 00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: and not putting up a lot of opposition. So the 469 00:30:12,740 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: progress in getting psychedelics accepted in the culture and approved 470 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: by the government, which may be imminent, in just eight 471 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,700 Speaker 1: years is quite remarkable. Um, and it, I think it's 472 00:30:27,740 --> 00:30:29,739 Speaker 1: just a lesson in how politics work and that you 473 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: really need to have support on the right and the left. 474 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,650 Speaker 1: And the food movement by comparison was really coded liberal 475 00:30:37,690 --> 00:30:42,770 Speaker 1: or left. It was a coastal phenomenon, um, tended to 476 00:30:42,810 --> 00:30:47,390 Speaker 1: be more affluent people who could afford organic food. Um, 477 00:30:47,570 --> 00:30:50,620 Speaker 1: but that's changing now, of course. or may change because 478 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: of the so-called Maha movement, the Make America Healthy Again movement. 479 00:30:56,100 --> 00:31:00,190 Speaker 1: And for the first time in modern times, we have 480 00:31:01,110 --> 00:31:05,970 Speaker 1: a right-wing constituency in favor of some aspects of food reform, 481 00:31:06,390 --> 00:31:10,950 Speaker 1: getting ultra-processed food out of the school lunch programs and 482 00:31:11,050 --> 00:31:14,870 Speaker 1: getting pesticides out of our food and also dyes out 483 00:31:14,910 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: of our processed food. And I mean, there's lots of 484 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:26,910 Speaker 1: areas of non-overlap between the food movement from 2006 or 485 00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:31,770 Speaker 1: so and Maha now, but there's also some significant overlap. 486 00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:35,969 Speaker 1: And the potential, when the right leadership emerges, to join 487 00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:40,940 Speaker 1: these constituencies, and maybe then we could get some change. 488 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: So I think the food movement could learn something from 489 00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: the psychedelic movement on how to proceed And I remember 490 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:53,780 Speaker 1: in psychedelics, it was very controversial when Rick Doblin, who's 491 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,060 Speaker 1: a real leader in the psychedelic movement, he started a 492 00:31:57,100 --> 00:32:02,010 Speaker 1: group called MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies, that 493 00:32:02,250 --> 00:32:07,890 Speaker 1: really did the research on MDMA for trauma and will 494 00:32:07,910 --> 00:32:11,850 Speaker 1: be responsible when that gets approved for having done the science. 495 00:32:13,410 --> 00:32:16,820 Speaker 1: He reached out to people on the right. to veterans groups, 496 00:32:17,020 --> 00:32:21,550 Speaker 1: to Rick Perry, a former governor of Texas, to Rebecca Mercer, 497 00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:25,510 Speaker 1: who was a funder of Trump One, to fund this movement. 498 00:32:25,970 --> 00:32:29,370 Speaker 1: And in retrospect, I think that was visionary on his. 499 00:32:36,530 --> 00:32:41,780 Speaker 2: Part. I like a lot of people. I've been reading 500 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,890 Speaker 2: you for years, but I've also been listening to you 501 00:32:43,930 --> 00:32:48,790 Speaker 2: for years in documentaries, your many NPR appearances. And my 502 00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:52,870 Speaker 2: whole family really enjoyed your self-narrated audiobooks, Caffeine and This 503 00:32:52,930 --> 00:32:55,550 Speaker 2: Is Your Mind on Plants, during some road trips we 504 00:32:55,570 --> 00:32:58,460 Speaker 2: took in recent years. Oh, thank you. I was wondering, though, 505 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,660 Speaker 2: how did you come to start narrating your own audiobooks? 506 00:33:02,060 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 2: And did anyone, yourself included, need convincing to make that happen? 507 00:33:05,780 --> 00:33:09,420 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes. So, by the way, with the republication 508 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: of this book, there is a new audio book that 509 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,820 Speaker 1: I'm reading. When the book came out in 2006, the 510 00:33:16,860 --> 00:33:19,900 Speaker 1: conventional wisdom was that you had to have an actor 511 00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: or a professional read books, nonfiction books. And I really 512 00:33:25,660 --> 00:33:27,860 Speaker 1: bridled at this because I write in the first person 513 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,090 Speaker 1: and my readers want to hear me. And I don't 514 00:33:30,110 --> 00:33:32,350 Speaker 1: have a terrible voice and I don't have an accent 515 00:33:32,370 --> 00:33:34,740 Speaker 1: and I don't have a lisp. Um, so why not? 516 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,020 Speaker 1: But that was the conventional wisdom. They wouldn't let you 517 00:33:37,060 --> 00:33:41,020 Speaker 1: do it then. Um, but in the years since, I 518 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: think there's a general recognition that people do want to 519 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,380 Speaker 1: hear the author, at least when the book is first 520 00:33:46,420 --> 00:33:49,570 Speaker 1: person in a memoir or first person piece of journalism. 521 00:33:49,910 --> 00:33:52,190 Speaker 1: I get it for novels where you need to do 522 00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:57,790 Speaker 1: voices and, and, and some acting chops is helpful. Um, But, uh, 523 00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:02,110 Speaker 1: so I've been gradually, um, doing audio books of my 524 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,850 Speaker 1: earlier books. And, um, and when the idea of republishing 525 00:34:08,390 --> 00:34:12,529 Speaker 1: or doing a 20th anniversary edition of Omnivore's Dilemma came up, 526 00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:14,650 Speaker 1: I said, great, but we have to do a new 527 00:34:14,730 --> 00:34:17,299 Speaker 1: audio book. So I, I got to go back and 528 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,859 Speaker 1: read it, um, earlier this year. And, um, and that 529 00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: was a trip cause you don't normally read your books, uh, again. Um, 530 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: at least I don't. Um, but I've done, I think 531 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:30,020 Speaker 1: most of my books, I think there may be one 532 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,540 Speaker 1: I haven't done now in audio book. And there was 533 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,500 Speaker 1: a guy named Scott Brick who used to do them 534 00:34:34,540 --> 00:34:36,940 Speaker 1: all the time. He was perfectly good, but I would 535 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: hear from readers saying, that's not you. Um, so anyway, I, I, um, 536 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: it's important to me and, um, and I, I don't 537 00:34:45,219 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: mind doing it. It's a, it's a grueling week in 538 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:53,090 Speaker 1: a studio. Um, but I learned something from it. Um, and, uh, 539 00:34:53,140 --> 00:34:56,569 Speaker 1: so now when I'm doing a new book, um, I 540 00:34:56,630 --> 00:34:59,489 Speaker 1: do the audio book early enough in the process that 541 00:34:59,530 --> 00:35:01,850 Speaker 1: I can make changes based on what I'm hearing. Because 542 00:35:01,890 --> 00:35:04,230 Speaker 1: when you read things aloud, as I tell my students 543 00:35:04,290 --> 00:35:07,610 Speaker 1: all the time, you will find mistakes. You will find 544 00:35:07,610 --> 00:35:10,730 Speaker 1: $ 10 words you don't need. You will find sentences that 545 00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:14,089 Speaker 1: are run on. So I always record an audio book 546 00:35:14,370 --> 00:35:16,790 Speaker 1: with plenty of time to make changes. 547 00:35:16,810 --> 00:35:19,590 Speaker 2: It's the last step of editing. 548 00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: Oh, wow. 549 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,259 Speaker 2: That's amazing. That was one of my questions I was 550 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,859 Speaker 2: going to ask, if audio book recording has changed your 551 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:27,390 Speaker 2: writing approach. 552 00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah oh it has i think it's pushed my writing 553 00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:34,620 Speaker 1: in a more conversational direction and slightly less pretentious direction 554 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,379 Speaker 1: when i go back to my first books um which 555 00:35:38,420 --> 00:35:40,859 Speaker 1: were you know a little showy as everybody's first books 556 00:35:40,969 --> 00:35:44,549 Speaker 1: are um but yeah i mean i tend to i've 557 00:35:44,590 --> 00:35:48,230 Speaker 1: also done i'm working on another audible original like the 558 00:35:48,250 --> 00:35:51,810 Speaker 1: caffeine piece and you know writing that that the only 559 00:35:51,850 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: way well i the only way you think it's going 560 00:35:55,140 --> 00:35:57,620 Speaker 1: to be get out there is in an audio book. And, 561 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,620 Speaker 1: and that writing, I think that does affect your writing. 562 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: I think you tend to avoid long sentences. You tend 563 00:36:04,540 --> 00:36:09,790 Speaker 1: to avoid getting too technical, um, you know, avoiding details 564 00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:11,430 Speaker 1: that would be very hard to hold in your mind 565 00:36:11,469 --> 00:36:13,210 Speaker 1: or the, the kinds of things you would want to 566 00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:18,630 Speaker 1: go back and read. Um, so, uh, and, and definitely 567 00:36:18,650 --> 00:36:21,810 Speaker 1: a more conversational, uh, and, and maybe a little more 568 00:36:21,850 --> 00:36:26,089 Speaker 1: emphasis on humor. Um, So anyway, so I'm doing another 569 00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:28,710 Speaker 1: one of those right now. And I think, yeah, I 570 00:36:28,750 --> 00:36:32,710 Speaker 1: think it's funny how your writing, my writing changes when 571 00:36:32,750 --> 00:36:36,700 Speaker 1: you know the context. Like when I, when I first 572 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,779 Speaker 1: wrote for the New Yorker, which is like 2013 or 573 00:36:40,820 --> 00:36:44,700 Speaker 1: something like that, it was like this piece came out 574 00:36:44,739 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: that sounded like a New Yorker piece. And that's not 575 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: the way I normally write. And it had a long 576 00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:52,170 Speaker 1: historical lead. I would never do that for the New 577 00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:56,130 Speaker 1: York Times. So it's kind of interesting how when you 578 00:36:56,170 --> 00:37:00,089 Speaker 1: know you're writing for this market or that market, you 579 00:37:00,870 --> 00:37:04,770 Speaker 1: subtly change what you do. And I mean, it's what 580 00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:07,109 Speaker 1: we all do in life, right? When we're talking to 581 00:37:07,290 --> 00:37:09,529 Speaker 1: different kinds of people, we talk in a slightly different way. 582 00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:12,170 Speaker 1: And I think that definitely happens with writers. 583 00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:17,109 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's funny because as I was rereading the book, 584 00:37:17,570 --> 00:37:20,610 Speaker 2: they'd send me the physical copy. I had an advanced PDF. 585 00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:22,529 Speaker 2: And I didn't know that the new audio book was 586 00:37:22,570 --> 00:37:24,069 Speaker 2: coming out. And my wife was like, why don't you 587 00:37:24,110 --> 00:37:25,419 Speaker 2: listen to it? We're about to go on this trip. 588 00:37:25,460 --> 00:37:27,980 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, it's not Michael Pollan reading it. 589 00:37:28,340 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: You know, this is an older narration. I don't know 590 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,460 Speaker 2: if I can do that. And then we got back 591 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,540 Speaker 2: from the trip and Audible sent me a little update saying, hey, 592 00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:37,290 Speaker 2: there's a new audio book for Michael Pollan. Oh, good. 593 00:37:37,390 --> 00:37:39,610 Speaker 1: I'm so glad they got it out there. Yeah, I 594 00:37:39,650 --> 00:37:42,590 Speaker 1: enjoyed doing it. It was very interesting to go back 595 00:37:42,670 --> 00:37:45,969 Speaker 1: and think about what's happened since. And that became the 596 00:37:46,010 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: basis of the introduction. looking at the changes that have 597 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: happened and the changes that haven't happened. And, you know, 598 00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:55,690 Speaker 1: the two biggies that I talk about, um, and I, 599 00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:59,150 Speaker 1: you know, there were others I could have talked about, but, uh, 600 00:37:59,430 --> 00:38:03,250 Speaker 1: one is, um, the rise of the Maha movement and 601 00:38:03,770 --> 00:38:06,510 Speaker 1: the fact that we now have a constituency for change 602 00:38:06,590 --> 00:38:08,350 Speaker 1: on the right, as well as the left, and that 603 00:38:08,410 --> 00:38:11,739 Speaker 1: that gives me some grounds for hope. I mean, there 604 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,790 Speaker 1: are things about the Maha movement that are absolutely, you know, crazy, but, um, 605 00:38:16,820 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you have to hold your nose when 606 00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:22,859 Speaker 1: you're making a political alliance. And I'm a pragmatic person. 607 00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:27,989 Speaker 1: The other thing is the rise of this term and 608 00:38:28,370 --> 00:38:32,090 Speaker 1: everything that goes with it, ultra-processed food. And that is 609 00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:34,870 Speaker 1: a term that doesn't appear in Omnivore's Dilemma. We talked 610 00:38:34,910 --> 00:38:39,100 Speaker 1: about processed food and junk food, but the refining of 611 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,860 Speaker 1: a definition of ultra-processed food as a kind of food 612 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:49,890 Speaker 1: that's ready to eat, that you can't produce yourself at home. 613 00:38:50,190 --> 00:38:53,430 Speaker 1: You need a factory to produce and all these chemicals 614 00:38:53,469 --> 00:38:56,430 Speaker 1: that nobody would have in their pantry. And that this 615 00:38:56,590 --> 00:39:01,450 Speaker 1: now is 55% of our diet and 72% of kids' diets. 616 00:39:02,050 --> 00:39:05,109 Speaker 1: And we now know there's been enough research on this 617 00:39:05,150 --> 00:39:10,069 Speaker 1: category that it is worse for your health and more 618 00:39:10,140 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: likely to induce you to overeat. And there was a 619 00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:18,580 Speaker 1: Brazilian epidemiologist who put forward this idea. His name is 620 00:39:18,620 --> 00:39:22,250 Speaker 1: Carlos Monteiro. And he didn't, I think, put forward this 621 00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:27,310 Speaker 1: idea until 2009. But it's had legs and it's really penetrated. 622 00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: And there's an active conversation in the government about how 623 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,620 Speaker 1: to define ultra-processed food and what to do about it. 624 00:39:33,020 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: Not that this administration will do anything about it, but 625 00:39:35,940 --> 00:39:39,410 Speaker 1: they're going through the motions and laying the groundwork, I think, 626 00:39:39,469 --> 00:39:43,810 Speaker 1: for another administration to really look at this category of food, 627 00:39:43,870 --> 00:39:48,189 Speaker 1: which is the food that's making us sick. 628 00:39:49,250 --> 00:39:51,770 Speaker 2: Now, coming back to the audiobook, you're talking about revisiting 629 00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 2: Omnivore's Dilemma. Part of the reading experience for us on 630 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: the reader's end is that you transport us to these 631 00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:02,980 Speaker 2: places and we travel with you to the Iowa fields 632 00:40:03,020 --> 00:40:06,420 Speaker 2: or to the feedlots or out foraging in the forests. 633 00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:10,770 Speaker 2: And I was wondering, had enough time passed that you 634 00:40:10,810 --> 00:40:14,450 Speaker 2: felt transported as well, or were you still very much 635 00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:17,270 Speaker 2: engaging with the text as the author of that text? 636 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,469 Speaker 1: No, it brought me back. I mean, I had powerful memories. 637 00:40:23,130 --> 00:40:27,130 Speaker 1: As a reporting, I don't think I had written a 638 00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:31,270 Speaker 1: book that was so reported or investigated as this was. 639 00:40:31,390 --> 00:40:33,890 Speaker 1: I was learning a lot about how to do journalism 640 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,700 Speaker 1: at that point. So I had written a lot of 641 00:40:36,739 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: personal essays, and I was writing a lot about my 642 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: garden and what I was learning about nature and how 643 00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:48,190 Speaker 1: to behave in nature. So I came up through this 644 00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 1: essay mode and then I started looking at the food system. 645 00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it was kind of a natural outgrowth. I 646 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,100 Speaker 1: was interested in plants and gardens and that got me 647 00:41:00,140 --> 00:41:03,240 Speaker 1: interested in farming and how farmers do what they do 648 00:41:03,380 --> 00:41:07,850 Speaker 1: and how do they deal with pests, for example. I mean, 649 00:41:08,070 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: it's the same issues. And so... you know, finding my way, 650 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,009 Speaker 1: getting onto feedlots and getting into slaughterhouses and getting into 651 00:41:19,090 --> 00:41:24,569 Speaker 1: hog confinement operations. These were all difficult journalistic, uh, adventures, um, 652 00:41:24,730 --> 00:41:28,270 Speaker 1: that took some doing and persuasion, you know? So, you know, 653 00:41:28,350 --> 00:41:32,629 Speaker 1: there's a chapter where I follow one cow steer really 654 00:41:32,670 --> 00:41:37,050 Speaker 1: through the whole system from insemination to slaughter. And that 655 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: was a, that took a lot of, uh, you know, 656 00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:44,380 Speaker 1: persuasion to get people to let me that close to 657 00:41:44,420 --> 00:41:49,610 Speaker 1: the process. And, um, uh, so yeah, it brought me back. Um, 658 00:41:50,030 --> 00:41:52,509 Speaker 1: the first day I went to garden city, Kansas and 659 00:41:52,690 --> 00:41:55,090 Speaker 1: found myself on a feedlot, which is, is a mind 660 00:41:55,130 --> 00:42:00,070 Speaker 1: blowing place to be. Um, I remember getting in, in 661 00:42:00,110 --> 00:42:04,260 Speaker 1: a rental car, landing late at night in garden city, Kansas, 662 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,930 Speaker 1: which is really where feedlots began. Um, and, uh, getting 663 00:42:09,969 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: in this car and driving toward the town where my 664 00:42:13,340 --> 00:42:18,299 Speaker 1: hotel was and the smell was just overwhelming. And I 665 00:42:18,380 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: thought like, did something happen in the backseat to this car? 666 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:29,129 Speaker 1: Did the last person lose it? And then I opened 667 00:42:29,150 --> 00:42:32,049 Speaker 1: the window and no, it's outside, it's all around me. 668 00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:35,570 Speaker 1: And just the stench of these feedlots, I had no idea. 669 00:42:37,610 --> 00:42:42,850 Speaker 1: And spending a day on the feedlot was mind blowing. 670 00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:46,350 Speaker 1: So many scenes came back to me, powerful scenes. And 671 00:42:46,370 --> 00:42:51,370 Speaker 1: then the happy scenes, like mushroom hunting and cooking and 672 00:42:53,210 --> 00:42:56,129 Speaker 1: spending time on Joel Salatin's farm. I spent a lot 673 00:42:56,170 --> 00:43:01,490 Speaker 1: of time looking at a really model animal farm where 674 00:43:01,969 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: animals live a very happy life and are treated with 675 00:43:05,580 --> 00:43:09,790 Speaker 1: incredible dignity. And as they say, have only one bad day. 676 00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:16,710 Speaker 1: And learning about, I mean, we talked about how the 677 00:43:16,830 --> 00:43:19,469 Speaker 1: oil fields lay behind the corn fields. And if you 678 00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:22,110 Speaker 1: really wanna follow it all the way, here was a 679 00:43:22,170 --> 00:43:26,569 Speaker 1: farm that was based not on corn, but grass, which 680 00:43:26,750 --> 00:43:31,660 Speaker 1: in turn was fed by the sun. So you had 681 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: this contrasting food chain that was sun feeding grass, grass 682 00:43:35,540 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: feeding animals, animals feeding us, much more beautiful food chain, 683 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: as opposed to oil feeding corn and corn feeding us 684 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:49,580 Speaker 1: meat or processed food. So there were scenes that to 685 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:54,650 Speaker 1: me were very powerful rereading them. And then the hunting scene, 686 00:43:54,750 --> 00:43:56,989 Speaker 1: I mean, where I, you know, fired a gun for 687 00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:59,350 Speaker 1: the first time and killed an animal for the first 688 00:43:59,410 --> 00:44:01,650 Speaker 1: time was very. 689 00:44:02,890 --> 00:44:03,350 Speaker 2: Powerful. 690 00:44:03,830 --> 00:44:06,930 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a, That to me is a momentous 691 00:44:06,989 --> 00:44:11,460 Speaker 1: thing to do. And I had such complicated feelings about it. 692 00:44:13,210 --> 00:44:17,090 Speaker 1: I mean, I had some sense of shame that I 693 00:44:17,130 --> 00:44:21,410 Speaker 1: was doing this, these beautiful animals. On the other hand, 694 00:44:21,530 --> 00:44:26,149 Speaker 1: as soon as I succeeded after multiple tries of tracking 695 00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:29,149 Speaker 1: and trying to shoot feral pigs who were not easy 696 00:44:29,170 --> 00:44:34,509 Speaker 1: to find during the day, I had this flush of 697 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,940 Speaker 1: pride Um, and I have this picture of me holding 698 00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: a gun behind with one hand on this large sow, 699 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: like 500 pound feral pig. And I have this shit 700 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: eating grin on my face that I I've never shown 701 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: this picture to anyone. It's just really embarrassing. Um, but 702 00:44:56,739 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: I get it. I mean, talk about being hunter gatherers, 703 00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:04,380 Speaker 1: you know? this was success. This was a very important, 704 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,299 Speaker 1: it still is in certain tribes, um, to get the 705 00:45:07,340 --> 00:45:11,980 Speaker 1: big animal, you're going to feed your family and your community. And, um, 706 00:45:12,540 --> 00:45:15,620 Speaker 1: it's a, it's a real accomplishment. Uh, on the other hand, 707 00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:18,710 Speaker 1: it's inflected by all these doubts and shame that we 708 00:45:18,750 --> 00:45:22,710 Speaker 1: have about killing animals. So yeah, all this came back 709 00:45:22,750 --> 00:45:25,620 Speaker 1: to me reading it, um, reading it over and, uh, 710 00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: some of it I'd forgotten. And, um, so it was, 711 00:45:28,739 --> 00:45:32,710 Speaker 1: it was a positive experience rereading it. Um, The only 712 00:45:32,770 --> 00:45:35,509 Speaker 1: negative was, God, I wish more had changed. I wish 713 00:45:35,550 --> 00:45:39,299 Speaker 1: this book were completely out of date, because that would 714 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,060 Speaker 1: have been a good sign. 715 00:45:42,260 --> 00:45:45,100 Speaker 2: You mentioned the Roman poet Virgil several times in the book, 716 00:45:45,540 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 2: especially when you meet your foraging Virgil, Angela Garo. Did 717 00:45:49,820 --> 00:45:51,540 Speaker 2: you ever think of yourself as a kind of Dante 718 00:45:51,620 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 2: figure elsewhere in your travels for the book, visiting these 719 00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:58,890 Speaker 2: alien cornfields and field lots? Feedlots, rather. 720 00:45:59,710 --> 00:46:02,190 Speaker 1: No, I didn't think of myself as Dante. But I 721 00:46:02,250 --> 00:46:07,259 Speaker 1: did think of myself as an amateur. And, you know, 722 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,240 Speaker 1: I love writing at the beginning of the learning curve. 723 00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:14,700 Speaker 1: I don't write as an expert. I don't like writing 724 00:46:14,739 --> 00:46:17,720 Speaker 1: as an expert. I like writing as a learner. And 725 00:46:19,410 --> 00:46:22,750 Speaker 1: so I have to find my guides, my Virgils, whatever 726 00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:26,050 Speaker 1: I'm doing. This person who is trustworthy and can guide 727 00:46:26,090 --> 00:46:29,069 Speaker 1: me into a world that's very foreign to me. And 728 00:46:29,090 --> 00:46:31,390 Speaker 1: then I become sort of a guide for my reader. 729 00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: But if you read my work, almost always on page one, 730 00:46:36,620 --> 00:46:39,739 Speaker 1: I'm sort of an idiot. You know, I've got questions. 731 00:46:39,820 --> 00:46:42,460 Speaker 1: I don't have answers. I don't like to write. I 732 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,410 Speaker 1: don't like to lecture the reader. I really like to 733 00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:48,850 Speaker 1: take them by the hand and take them on my 734 00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:53,230 Speaker 1: journey with me. And so the books, I think this 735 00:46:53,290 --> 00:46:56,150 Speaker 1: is true. All my books is that there is an 736 00:46:56,270 --> 00:47:00,130 Speaker 1: arc from ignorance to some mastery of a subject. And 737 00:47:00,150 --> 00:47:03,509 Speaker 1: I don't start with that. The way an academic would, 738 00:47:03,550 --> 00:47:09,620 Speaker 1: for example. If you read an academic article, the abstract 739 00:47:09,940 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: gives it all away. And the piece is written from 740 00:47:12,140 --> 00:47:17,140 Speaker 1: this position of complete authority and expertise. And that's true 741 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,090 Speaker 1: in the way, you know, a lot of nonfiction is written, 742 00:47:20,270 --> 00:47:24,210 Speaker 1: that you're being told what the truth is beginning on 743 00:47:24,250 --> 00:47:29,430 Speaker 1: page one. I find that really deadening as a reader. 744 00:47:29,890 --> 00:47:35,590 Speaker 1: And I'd much rather recreate my ignorance at the beginning 745 00:47:35,610 --> 00:47:38,629 Speaker 1: of the book and then walk people through the process 746 00:47:38,810 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: of learning and the surprise. I think questions are generally 747 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,650 Speaker 1: more interesting than answers, and curiosity is the great driver 748 00:47:47,130 --> 00:47:51,270 Speaker 1: of good nonfiction. So I want to recreate in the 749 00:47:51,330 --> 00:47:55,780 Speaker 1: reader's mind the questions and the curiosity that I felt. 750 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons I didn't stay with 751 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: food as a subject. I wrote like four books about food, 752 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,590 Speaker 1: but now I'm an expert on that, and I can't 753 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,130 Speaker 1: write the same way. Maybe if I wrote about fisheries, 754 00:48:09,489 --> 00:48:14,060 Speaker 1: I don't know anything about fisheries, I could recreate that ignorance. 755 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 1: But it's one of the reasons I move on and 756 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,500 Speaker 1: moved on to psychedelics and from psychedelics to consciousness. I 757 00:48:21,580 --> 00:48:25,020 Speaker 1: really like being in that state of, I don't know 758 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,140 Speaker 1: what's going on, but I really want to know and 759 00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:31,900 Speaker 1: I have these questions. So yeah, curiosity is the great driver. 760 00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:35,180 Speaker 1: And a question gives you suspense, right? Is he going 761 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,649 Speaker 1: to be able to answer this question? it turns every 762 00:48:38,690 --> 00:48:42,650 Speaker 1: story into a kind of detective story. And the question 763 00:48:42,690 --> 00:48:45,390 Speaker 1: in Omnivore's Dilemma is very simple, like where does this 764 00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:51,140 Speaker 1: food come from? How was it made? But a simple 765 00:48:51,180 --> 00:48:53,779 Speaker 1: question like that can lead you to all sorts of 766 00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:55,660 Speaker 1: unexpected places. 767 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,399 Speaker 2: Well, Michael, thank you for chatting with me here today. Again, 768 00:49:00,420 --> 00:49:03,020 Speaker 2: I'm gonna hold it up for folks watching. This is 769 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:08,140 Speaker 2: the Omnivore's Dilemma 20th anniversary edition. I don't want to 770 00:49:08,219 --> 00:49:11,259 Speaker 2: overstate things, but I was talking with my wife and 771 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 2: I was like, what other books and what other authors 772 00:49:13,460 --> 00:49:15,310 Speaker 2: that I've had the opportunity to chat with can I 773 00:49:15,370 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 2: say like that their work actually changed the way I 774 00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 2: live my life day to day? And I really couldn't 775 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,920 Speaker 2: come up with another answer other than the On the 776 00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:25,100 Speaker 2: Wars Dilemma. So thank you for writing. 777 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:27,360 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, Rob. That means a lot to me. 778 00:49:27,660 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Very generous. 779 00:49:29,940 --> 00:49:35,020 Speaker 2: Thank you. It's been an honor. Thanks once more to 780 00:49:35,060 --> 00:49:37,500 Speaker 2: Michael Pollan for coming on the show. Again, the 20th 781 00:49:37,540 --> 00:49:41,270 Speaker 2: anniversary edition of The Omnivore's Dilemma is out now in 782 00:49:41,350 --> 00:49:44,569 Speaker 2: all formats, and that includes the updated audio book that 783 00:49:44,610 --> 00:49:48,129 Speaker 2: we were talking about in the interview. His latest new book, 784 00:49:48,250 --> 00:49:51,529 Speaker 2: A World Appears, is also out in all formats. Read 785 00:49:51,610 --> 00:49:58,049 Speaker 2: more about his work at michaelpollan.com. As for our own show, 786 00:49:58,070 --> 00:49:59,810 Speaker 2: we'll just remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind 787 00:49:59,890 --> 00:50:02,850 Speaker 2: is primarily a science and culture podcast with four episodes 788 00:50:02,890 --> 00:50:06,030 Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do a short-form episode on Wednesdays, 789 00:50:06,090 --> 00:50:08,580 Speaker 2: and on Fridays, we just set aside most serious concerns 790 00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:11,340 Speaker 2: to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 791 00:50:11,940 --> 00:50:18,020 Speaker 2: As always, if you have questions, comments, interview suggestions, write in. 792 00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:20,530 Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you. Thanks, as always, 793 00:50:20,590 --> 00:50:23,569 Speaker 2: to the excellent J.J. Possway for producing the show, and 794 00:50:23,590 --> 00:50:27,470 Speaker 2: you can reach out to us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com. 795 00:50:36,420 --> 00:50:38,850 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. 796 00:50:39,230 --> 00:50:42,009 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. 797 00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:44,940 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.