1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discuss the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We are on vacation, but that doesn't 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: mean we don't have a fabulous show for you Today. 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: Sister in law's own Joys Fans stops by to talk 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: about her new book, Giving Up Is Unforgivable, a Manual 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: for keeping a Democracy. Then we'll talk to Julian Brave 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: Noisecat about his new book, We Survived the Night. Welcome 9 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Joys Vans. 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: I love you, like I know. I think the mutual 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: people find it very annoying when I like say how 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: much I love the guests, so I won't say it. 14 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: But you're a person who a lot of people love 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: because you're smart, you have had these really important jobs 16 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: in government, and you also are fucking brave. So explain 17 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: to us what this book is. It's a little bit different. 18 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: It's not Trump book. It's something completely different. Talk to 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: us about Giving Up is Unforgivable. 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I'm not sure I deserve the introduction, but 21 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: thank you. I bet everybody remembers that moment after the 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: election when Kamala Harris lost, and people seemed ready to 23 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: just give up. They had given it everything that they 24 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: had hadn't worked. You know, people were gobsmeckt by that. 25 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: My fear in that moment was that it would become 26 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: easy to walk away from democracy as a failed experiment. 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: And I thought the consequences of walking away, especially with 28 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: the specter of second Trump presidency, were very dire. And 29 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 2: so I began looking for points in our history where 30 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: it looked like the rule of law had just not 31 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: been up to the task of preserving democracy. And the 32 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: more I thought about that, I thought, you know, there's 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: a powerful lesson here when you're in a moment where 34 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: one or two institutions that were used to taking for granted, 35 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: when those institutions fail, other institutions step up. And so 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: there are, for example, issues involving the dread Scott case, 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: which is an old Supreme Court case that reached the 38 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: regrettable conclusion that black people weren't American citizens. It was 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: a horrible moment in American history. It took the bloody 40 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 2: Civil War to transform the country, but ultimately Congress saw 41 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: fit to make clear through legislation that yes, black people 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: were not only citizens, they had the right to vote 43 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: to sue, they had a right to equal treatment. And 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: so the point that I wanted to make was in 45 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: the moment, things can look really terrible and it can 46 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: even take a long time to create change, but our 47 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: long term trajectory in this country is progress, and I 48 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: didn't want us to give up on making progress. 49 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: So slavery is a great example. I mean, it's not 50 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: a great example of anything, but it's a great example. 51 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: But it illustrates right the country that we face as 52 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 2: a nation that has really lost its way. 53 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: What other a moment. 54 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: So there's a case called a Supreme Court case called Kamatsu. 55 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: It's a World War II era case. So I'm a 56 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: native California and I'm from Los Angeles. This was the 57 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: story of many of my friends growing up, of their families. 58 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: I know, every Japanese American over the age of fourteen 59 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: gets declared an enemy alien during World War two. Absolutely 60 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: no basis for that. Japanese people lose their homes, their businesses, 61 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: their interned in camps. They essentially are just removed from 62 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: their citizenship. And you know, this is a tragic story. 63 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: Fred Kooramatsu doesn't want to cave into this, and he 64 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: ends up after he's arrested for violating the ban on 65 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: Japanese people not being in the stockade in the Palisades. 66 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: He sues, and ultimately there's not a happy resolution of 67 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: Japanese interment until Donald Trump, during his first presidency invokes 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: the muzzle ban. Yeah, and in the course of the 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: Supreme Court signing off on the Muslim ban, the justices 70 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: in Descent, Justice Cake and in Justice So to my 71 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: oor make the point that what the Supreme Court is 72 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: signing off on is just as bad as the Coromanzu 73 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: case which denied Fred Kuromantzu's citizenship and participation in American citizenship, 74 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: and Chief Justice Roberts only then, all of those decades 75 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: later says no, no, no, Kamazu was wrongly decided. 76 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: It was. 77 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: It was wrong when we did it, it's wrong now. 78 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: It can't be the law in the United States of America. 79 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: This is, I think, in many ways, a tragic sort 80 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: of a reminder that the Supreme Court can get it 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: right and take decades to fix it. But the reality 82 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: is again in that situation, if we don't give up, 83 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: there is a fix. And what happens if we just 84 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: give up and walk away from democracy. Right, All of 85 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: the problems that we care about become that much more 86 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: difficult to deal with when you have a king and 87 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: his minions. If anything benefits people like you and me, 88 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: Molly and the rest of us, that's just an incidental 89 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: benefit that happens to us, you know, because for whatever 90 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: reason it doesn't conflict with the king's whims. If we 91 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: want to be able to take on problems like climate 92 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: change that are essential for future, then we have to 93 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 2: remain a democracy. It's our only chance. 94 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: Yes, and Trump is not going to be some benevolent monarch. 95 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: We've already seen that's not his play. 96 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: So I mean, I write in the book that king 97 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: is a nice word for a dictator. In this context. 98 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: We talk a lot about guardrails and how there aren't 99 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: really guardrails in this moment. I think that the No 100 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: King's rally second largest protest after Earth They in nineteen 101 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: ninety one when I was like twelve, That is sort 102 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: of the guardrail at this moment, is that we can 103 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: be the guardrail. Do you think that's right? Because people 104 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: are quick to dismiss that march and say, yeah, but 105 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: what now? But I don't think that's the right way 106 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: to think about it, And I wonder what you think. 107 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I totally agree. You know, I think that 108 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: we're the cavalry right the public. We actually are a guardrail. 109 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: We're a democratic institution in this country. There will be 110 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 2: elections in twenty twenty six. The fight will be to 111 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: keep them free and fair. I see the No Kings 112 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: March as the summoning point for that effort to protect 113 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: the vote. But I think there are other interesting guardrails that. 114 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: Are re emerging. 115 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: You know. One of the great things about our country, 116 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: I think an advantage that we have over, for instance, 117 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: countries like Hungary that we're re emerging from communism and 118 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 2: trying to establish democracy and then backslid. The advantage that 119 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 2: we have is federalism. We have democracy at every level 120 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: of government, federal, state, local. It's so deeply ingrained that 121 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: we elect our class presidents as elementary school kids in 122 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: democratic fashion. And that means when there is a flunk 123 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: out in the federal system, which is what we are 124 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: experiencing right now. You know, Congress, supine on the floor, 125 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: Supreme Court complicit, and much of what Trump wants to do, 126 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: Trump trying to gather all the power of government for 127 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: the executive branch, and now we see governors re emerging 128 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: and asserting themselves. The state's attorneys generals are one of 129 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: the unsung songs of this moment because we have a 130 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: group of blue state Democratic attorneys general who are filing 131 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: lawsuit after lawsuit, and these are high quality lawsuits. They've 132 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: been strategic, they've been successful, They've blocked some of the 133 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: worst Trump excesses. So I believe those guardrails are there 134 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: if we're willing to look for them and support them. 135 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: But yes, you're absolutely correct. Ultimately we are the most 136 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 2: important guardrail. 137 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: As someone who runs a podcast that does politics, I 138 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: have interviewed a lot of Democratic attorneys general, so many 139 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: so sometimes i'm I'm like, ah, it's Rob Bunta. I 140 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: know that guy. Ah, it's Raoul, my buddy, Raoul. I 141 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: know that. When I interviewed Raoul from New Mexico, he's 142 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: the attorney general of New Mexico. He actually said in 143 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: July that he did not think Harris was going to 144 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: win and that this crew had been meeting to try 145 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: to figure out what the game plan was. These Democratic 146 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: attorney generals have been trying have known that they have 147 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: this responsibility. Talk to us about that this sort of 148 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: power of attorney's general. 149 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 150 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: So, you know, especially in this moment that we're facing 151 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: where the Supreme Court is making it more difficult to 152 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: file lawsuits protecting the right to vote, state's attorneys general 153 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: are in a unique position because they will almost always 154 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: either have the standing to challenge measures that are anti 155 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: democratic or being able to support lawsuits that will advance 156 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: those sorts of causes. And so you make the point 157 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,479 Speaker 2: about California's Attorney General Bontis. You know, he's a legitimate 158 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: constitutional law scholar. He's a lawyer's lawyer in Rhode Island. 159 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: Peter Narona, my former US attorney's colleague, an outstanding prosecutor, 160 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: really doing a great job as an attorney general. Some 161 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: of the cases have been situated in Rhode Island and 162 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: they've done very well. And so when we're seeing cases 163 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: that support the rights of educational institutions or restore funding 164 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 2: grants for public health, in many cases, that's the result 165 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: of exactly what you've talked about, strategic moves by a 166 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: group of attorneys general who saw that they were going 167 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: to have the responsibility for acting in a uniquely coordinated fashion. 168 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: And something I'm especially a fan of that they're doing 169 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: is that they have shown restraint. They have not filed 170 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: a lawsuit every single time the executive branch jumps. They 171 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 2: wait for the good lawsuits, they file the good lawsuits. 172 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: They focus their recalce versus They serve very well not 173 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: only the people who've elected them, but all of us. 174 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: But by doing that in a really strong fashion. 175 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, can we talk for a minute about what federalism 176 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: looks like now? So you have a situation where and 177 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: I think Pritzker is such a good example, but could 178 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: certainly make this example with California and knew somebody. I 179 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: think Pritzker is a better example because Chicago is being 180 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: in un David would Trump be fuckery. So here's the 181 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,479 Speaker 1: state pays in a lot of money to the federal government. 182 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: In return, has programs canceled, has them held up, has them, 183 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, is being treated in a way that federalism 184 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: never meant to really treated. What kind of power does 185 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: the state of Illinois have? I mean, I asked Chris 186 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: Murphy about this, and I think there's anxiety about upping 187 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: the ante. But I also think if you are a 188 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: state that's paying these humongous tes axes, and you find 189 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: yourself a hostage of Donald Trump's America, Like, how long 190 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: until you decide that's not the move? 191 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: You know, it's an incredibly ironic moment, right. I live 192 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: in Alabama, the Deep South. For years we heard states' rights. 193 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: We don't want the federal government interfering with the state's 194 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: self management. There's even in the last couple of weeks 195 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: been a little bit of a heartbeat from Republicans on 196 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: that issue, as we see Trump sending deploying, activating National 197 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 2: guardsmen and sending them into democratic led cities over claims 198 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: that crime is rampant, which are of course untrue. I mean, 199 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: that's that's the move, right, that effort to use power 200 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: and override the states, which should have every Republican in 201 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: the country in an uproar, and it doesn't. So states 202 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: like my home state Alabama, which pay far less in 203 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: taxes than they receive in from the federal government, seem 204 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 2: happy for that to be the case. And in essence, 205 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: we're letting states like Illinois and California pay for a 206 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: lot of that aid that comes back to our state. 207 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: So I guess the question that you're asking is at 208 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: what point does it make sense for Blue states to 209 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: go to war with Donald Trump over that inequity. And 210 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: I think that that's a question for the political types. 211 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: So I'm going to duck a little bit since I'm 212 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: a lawyer, but I will say at some point, Blue 213 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: state governors will need to consider whether it's worth crafting 214 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: a legal strategy to challenge the way Donald Trump is 215 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: using the power of the purse, which should, of course 216 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: belong to Congress and does belong to Congress if Congress 217 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 2: chooses to assert it in order to address that situation. 218 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: We've all seen these pictures right of Donald Trump tearing 219 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: down part of the White House, which is just I 220 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: think horrifying it as cellular life to have to see 221 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: that's happening during a shutdown. Federal employees are not getting paid, 222 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: the government is not supposed to be spending money, and 223 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: yet here we are. You know, the question is who's 224 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 2: willing to step up and curb that abuse of power 225 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: by the president. 226 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: A real, real, real important question. So that and I 227 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: think that is a real question, and it's so far 228 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: it seems like no one except the libertarians talk to 229 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: me about the libertarians. That's a weird dynamic, are you 230 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: what are you surprised by that? 231 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 3: You know? 232 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much on the political spectrum that 233 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: should be opposed to what Donald Trump is doing. 234 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: Right. 235 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: We always hear that libertarian voice from Rand Paul, who 236 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: still maintains that he's a fervent Thomas man of the presidents, 237 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: but that he will step in when he disagrees with activity, 238 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: and often that's on the libertarian end of the spectrum. 239 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 2: Politics make strange bedfellows, and I think it's not unlikely 240 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: that we'll see a coalition re emerge, that we'll try 241 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 2: to constrain at least some of the spending, perhaps some 242 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: of the tariff activity, which should offend those sensibilities. But 243 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: we live in a moment where and I think we 244 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: just have to say this out loud. It's something that 245 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 2: we've come to accept about Donald Trump and take for granted, 246 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: where people simply don't push back in the way that 247 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: they would if it was any other president. Right, imagine 248 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: Barack Obama repainting a room in the White House, let 249 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 2: alone cutting out a wall and tearing it down there. 250 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: There would be an uproar. It is time for us 251 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: to start challenging our elected officials, to ask them why 252 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: they are not doing their jobs with regard to this president. 253 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: Is it illegal for Donald Trump to tear into the 254 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: East Wing like that? 255 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: So? 256 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: I think illegal is a term of art. If you're 257 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: asking is it criminal, you know it's not because the 258 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: Supreme Court has said the president cannot can do what 259 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: we're doing. Act Does that make it right? It's certainly 260 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: to the extent that it's lawful, it's awful. I think 261 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: that there are civil challenges that could be brought against it. 262 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: I'm surprised we haven't yet seen some group moving to 263 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: enjoin what he's doing to the White House. It's certainly 264 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: a travesty. And you know, the way that I read it, 265 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: this is just me personally. I see this as an 266 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: expression from Donald Trump saying I can do anything. I 267 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: can even tear down the White House. And my thought is, 268 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: will no one with the power to do it in 269 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: government step up and stop this man. 270 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: I think those pictures hurt Trump in a way that 271 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff hasn't like. I think people are 272 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: really affected by those pictures. 273 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: I think it just cuts to the core, and I think, 274 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: you know, school kids who've visited that building, Folks who've 275 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: worked their members of Congress. I don't really know who 276 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: is not offended by those pictures, you know, and the 277 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: old thing in the Oval office was bad enough. 278 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: I think you're right. 279 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: I think we've seen a number of steps by the way, 280 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: Molly that may help people summon their moral courage and 281 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 2: continue the work that was begun in the No Kings march. 282 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: You know, there is this moment of physically tearing down 283 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: the White House. There are revenge prosecutions underwaigh, clear abuse 284 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 2: of the criminal justice system. There's the prospect of absolutely 285 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: outrageous insurance premiums in twenty twenty six that will bankrupt 286 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: people or prevent them from getting healthcare. All of this 287 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: going on as Trump continues to glad handle and hold 288 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: parties in the you know whatever that parking lot pavement 289 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 2: over the Rose Garden is. I think we've reached a 290 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: turning point. 291 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: It's called the Rose Garden Club, and it's a Trump 292 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: branded property where you or your Republican friends can order 293 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: a delicious snack. Is that legal? That seems illegal? 294 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: You know, so much of this would seem to violate 295 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: common sense law, right, I mean, but do you remember 296 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: the moment where they decided to hold the Republican Convention 297 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 2: in the White House for the twenty twenty election cycle, 298 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 2: clearly something that would violate the Hatch Act. And of 299 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: course the Hatch Act simply no longer matters because Donald 300 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: Trump has decreed it so, And this is sort of 301 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 2: the point that I make in the book. Donald Trump 302 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: wants Americans to believe that his assent to power is inevitable. 303 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 2: In the last couple of weeks, we've seen the Trump 304 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight nonsense that he's putting on his social 305 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: media feeds. You know, there is that picture of him 306 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: in the Oval Office with a hat that said Trump 307 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight. 308 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: And this is the thing. 309 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 2: About people who want to take control, people who want 310 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: to be dictators. They will push as far as they 311 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: can push until somebody stops them. This is the moment 312 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: where instead of accepting that Trump is inevitable, he's literally 313 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 2: waiting to see what we will do. But it can't 314 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: be one and done. It has to be a continuous push. 315 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 2: That means Americans talking to their elected officials and demanding more. 316 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: That means preparing for the twenty twenty sixth election, because 317 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: it's clear that Trump and his supporters will try to 318 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: make it more difficult to vote. That may mean launching 319 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: a sustained nationwide initiative to make sure that people have 320 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 2: identification that proves that they're American citizens. It's expensive to 321 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: get a passport, that's out of reach for a lot 322 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 2: of people. We're going to have to come together to 323 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: make sure that that happens, so that every eligible citizen 324 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: can vote, no matter what hurdles they throw up. I mean, 325 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 2: this is our moment as Americans. You know, this is 326 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 2: our battle. We're not going to fight on the shores 327 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: in Normandy. We're going to fight on American soil in 328 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: a peaceful way, in in voting booths to make sure 329 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: that we don't lose our democracy and everything we spend, 330 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 2: you know, a couple decades of our lives doing this. 331 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not what I plan to do in 332 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 2: my sixties and seventies. 333 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: I would also, I just want to add one fact 334 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: check here, and I'm not really fact checking you. It's 335 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: really just an aside. In twenty twenty eight, Donald Trump 336 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: will be eighty seven years old. Now he is the 337 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: fittest man to ever be president. Was because of his 338 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: fabulous arian ges. 339 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: I heard you make this point on MSNBC I think 340 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: over the weekend, and I thought you were dead on 341 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: the money. Joe Biden. You know all of the talk 342 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: about his declining mental health, and we're watching this with 343 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: Donald Trump every day and there's not really much of 344 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: a glimmer about it. 345 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 1: Nope, yet it is not. Thank you, toys, you are 346 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: the best. I'm so happy. Julian Brave Noisecat is the 347 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: author of We Survived the Night. Welcome to Fast Politics. 348 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 3: Julian, thank you so much for having me, Mollie. 349 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: I'm so delighted to have you so talk to us 350 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: about what's going on. 351 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 4: Well, what's going on in the world is a whole 352 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 4: lot of trickster business in my opinion. But I'm thinking 353 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 4: a lot about trickster's because I just wrote a book 354 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 4: called We Survived the Night about indigenous life in North America, 355 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 4: ranging from everything from my personal family story to a 356 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 4: sort of continent wide portrait through reportage and criticism of 357 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 4: the first peoples of this land. 358 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 3: I tell that story in the form of. 359 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 4: A trickster narrative, which is a traditional story for my 360 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 4: people's culture or where we account for the world and 361 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 4: the way things are through tricksters and the tricks that 362 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 4: they play on all of us. And I just feel 363 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 4: like we're kind of living through a trickster time right now. 364 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 3: That's where I'm at. 365 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: So I got to know you through Sugarcane, which is 366 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: incredible documentary that you made. 367 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 3: Thank you. 368 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: Whenever there's a story about indigenous people, my ears proke up, 369 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: especially in America, because you guys were here first. So 370 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: it seems very important people make movies and write books 371 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: about the experience, but not as many as there should be, 372 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: and not as much as I'd like, And wonder why 373 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: you think that is? 374 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think that there's a a culture 375 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 4: of purposefully erasing and forgetting Native people because contend with 376 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 4: our presence would be to contend with our enduring and 377 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 4: rightful claim to land, to self governance. And I think 378 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 4: it would also require us to rethink the way that 379 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 4: we tell the story of this land, of this continent. 380 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 4: You know, I think that there's this general crisis of 381 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 4: the way that America imagines itself at the moment. You know, 382 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 4: I do believe that that indigenous stories, you know, people 383 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 4: who have experienced a form of authoritarianism here, you know, 384 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 4: as we sort of demonstrate in a way in Sugarcane, 385 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 4: you know, an experience. 386 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 3: Of people having the right to raise their kids. 387 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 4: In their own culture and being violated and experiencing immense violence. 388 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 4: You know, that happened right here through a system of 389 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 4: schools that operated until the nineties in some places. 390 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: I'm in on the flip side, you know. 391 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 4: I also think there are perspectives in indigenous relationships to land, 392 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 4: and also in the way that indigenous peoples narrate how 393 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 4: change and transformation have happened here that I think might 394 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 4: actually more accurately tell the story of this continent. And 395 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 4: I think that it's sometimes hard for us to imagine 396 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 4: that these people who are you know, my people, who 397 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 4: are often positioned as sort of backwards and savage and primitive, 398 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 4: you know, might have something to say to the broader 399 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 4: world that that, in fact the story of us needing 400 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: to be replaced in order for progress to happen, might 401 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 4: get it exactly backwards. 402 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: You feel a huge amount of pressure basically representing a 403 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: huge swath of people who are otherwise not being represented 404 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: in art and culture. 405 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 4: Sometimes, but then I also remember that I'm part of 406 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 4: a broader community and movement and moment. You know, this 407 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 4: is a moment where you know, I agree that there's 408 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 4: gross underrepresentation and misrepresentation of Native peoples and our cultures 409 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 4: and our stories, and at the same time there is 410 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 4: a slight resurgence of Indigenous stories and media and film 411 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 4: and writing. I think it feels reassuring to me to 412 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 4: be part of a community of storytellers and artists who 413 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 4: are trying to restore you know, of people's place in 414 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 4: the story of North America more broadly in the world, 415 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 4: even more broadly than that, who are also trying to 416 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 4: bring back, you know, ways of being and seeing the world, 417 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 4: ways of telling stories as well and making art that 418 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 4: actually have something to say to broader humanity. So I 419 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 4: think that that is a big responsibility, but it's one 420 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 4: that I see myself as sharing with an entire group 421 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 4: of people who see things the same way as I do. 422 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: I do think the current crisis we're in right now 423 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: does actually speak to the first original sin of the 424 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: way that Native people were treated. Do you and do 425 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: you think there are lessons from that that we can 426 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: extrapolate right now? 427 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 3: I do? You know, I think that my people tell. 428 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 4: The story of the world and why things are the 429 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 4: way they are through an account of how change happens. 430 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 4: That leaves room for, you know, the self serving nature 431 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 4: of people, the fact that sometimes things are done through tricks. 432 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 4: And you know, one of the greatest tricks in the 433 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 4: history of man kind was the stealing of an entire 434 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 4: two continents worth of land. It's first people, It's hard 435 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 4: to come up with a bigger trick than that. I 436 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 4: think that there is something in that reality, in the 437 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 4: reality that the United States was in large part built 438 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 4: on stolen land as well as stolen labor of people 439 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 4: taken from Africa. That gets to the underlying criminality often 440 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 4: of the society. And I think that we often told 441 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 4: a different story about ourselves as Americans, for you know, 442 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 4: much of our history we were the Promised Land, the 443 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 4: land of opportunity and democracy. And I think that as 444 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 4: those myths, you know, we as we watch them dying 445 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 4: in real time, you know, seemingly every news cycle, I 446 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 4: think that it might be time to reconsider the way 447 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 4: that we narrate the story of this continent, of this land, 448 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 4: and that there are prior ways of telling the story 449 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 4: that belong to people who've been here for thousands and 450 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 4: thousands of years, much longer than this country has been around. 451 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 4: That might get at the truth a mission that I 452 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 4: do feel very committed to, even though sometimes it feels 453 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 4: like you're kind of talking into a void. 454 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: You know, you did a documentary, you wrote a book, 455 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: totally different genres, but you know about the same community, 456 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: about the same kind of little bit in certain ways, 457 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: the story of a book culture. Which genre do you prefer, 458 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: Which genre do you feel like you got more out of, 459 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: and what are you going to do next? 460 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 3: I was a writer first. 461 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 4: I always dreamed of becoming a writer, and then making 462 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 4: a documentary was something that kind of happened to me 463 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 4: in a sort of fateful way. Former colleague from my 464 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 4: days as a journalist, Emily Cassie, reached out to me 465 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 4: and asked if I'd be willing to collaborate with her. 466 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 4: I had just signed the book contract for We Survived 467 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 4: the Night, and I'd never written a book before her, 468 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 4: and I'd ever directed a film of any length, not 469 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 4: even like a TikTok. 470 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 471 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 4: I had to think about it, and obviously it was 472 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 4: a pretty significant, heavy subject. They were just starting to 473 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 4: discover unmarked Graves at the school's family was sent to, 474 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 4: and she came back around and asked me if i'd 475 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 4: be open to collaboring with her. Two weeks later, I 476 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 4: thought about it. I said, yeah, I'd be open to 477 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 4: doing it, and she told me that she'd identified school 478 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 4: to follow search out, and then that school was actually 479 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 4: the same one that my family was sent to and 480 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 4: where my father was born. And so, you know, in 481 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 4: a certain way, the documentary felt like it was something 482 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 4: that found me a lot more than writing, which is 483 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 4: something that I've always wanted to and felt called to do. 484 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 4: But more broadly, you know, I think that I just 485 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 4: love telling stories, and I feel really grateful that I 486 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 4: get to work across storytelling mediums. I now sort of 487 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 4: think about the stories that I try to tell in 488 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 4: a way of like, what is the right medium for 489 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 4: this kind of story? You know, which one might suit 490 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 4: a more visual storytelling medium better, and what might be 491 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 4: you know, more liberated in the written word. And I 492 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 4: do have some projects that I'm actually starting to work 493 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 4: on now after we survived the Night my first novel, actually, 494 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 4: I'm hoping to get that proposal all signed and you know, 495 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 4: moved forward with with my editor and who actually has 496 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 4: it right as we speak. And I also have a 497 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 4: proposal for another documentary that I'm going to start. 498 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: How is your family? How was that experience of the movie? 499 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: And like, I mean, there's certainly some cultural absolutely terrified 500 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: animosity towards mainstream media, as there is with many different cultures. 501 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 4: You know, there's really good reasons for Native people not 502 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 4: to trust the media. I mean, like the entire Hollywood 503 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 4: was built in large part sterns that portrayed our people 504 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 4: in not the best way to say, at least, you know, 505 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 4: I was making a documentary that, let's be honest, it 506 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 4: was like a kind of crazy thing to do in 507 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 4: a certain sense, like to bring cameras in to people, 508 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 4: to tell a story that we didn't even really tell ourselves. 509 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 4: That was one of the most painful stories that we'd 510 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 4: ever endured. It was a little bit more than a 511 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 4: leap of faith. And I think that I'm just really 512 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 4: grateful that they understood and felt the intention with which 513 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 4: the documentary was being made, which was to you know, 514 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 4: help people tell their truths, to help them heal, and 515 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 4: to help you know, people who didn't know about this 516 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 4: story to come to better understanding of it. I am 517 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 4: also incredibly grateful that it has ultimately been that sort 518 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 4: of a healing thing for them. 519 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 3: You know, my dad got a little lot closer to 520 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 3: his mother. I got a lot closer to him. 521 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 4: We actually moved in with him for two days while 522 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 4: I worked on the doctor in the book, and I 523 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 4: consider him like, you know, one of my best friends 524 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 4: in the film has now traveled all over the world. 525 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 4: I mean, like today, for example, I'm talking to you 526 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 4: from Norway, where we just brought the film to the 527 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 4: same the indigenous peoples of Scandinavia. 528 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: You know, there's been so much unease about the way 529 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: that indigenous people have been treated in Canada, in America, 530 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: just so much sort of bad feeling about what happened 531 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: in a sort of bit of trying to make it right, 532 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: but mostly not. What's your feeling about where we are 533 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: with that? 534 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 4: You know, I think that there was a moment in 535 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 4: time where and it felt like we were starting to 536 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: really wrestle with this thing. Just a little over a 537 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 4: year ago, the last president, Joe Biden, actually apologized to 538 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 4: the survivors of the Native American boarding schools in a formal, 539 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 4: big gathered apology. You know, the Catholic Church actually apologized 540 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 4: in a sort of like mealy mouthed way, but they apologize. 541 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: And you also had an Indigenous woman in the government. 542 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, we also had Deb Holland as the first ever 543 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 4: Native American cabinet secretary. Actually the only political outcome I 544 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 4: ever had any influence don in. 545 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: My entire life. Wait tell me why. 546 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 3: It was actually my idea. Yeah. 547 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 4: So before I started on the book and on the documentary, 548 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 4: I actually lived in DC for four years and I 549 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 4: worked in politics. I was sort of, broadly speaking, in 550 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 4: the progressive environmental circles. There was this idea that I 551 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 4: came up with. I worked at this think tank called 552 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 4: dataa Progress. We put out this list of potential cabinet 553 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,959 Speaker 4: picks for would be Biden administration. I threw Deb Holland's 554 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 4: name on there because I thought be really cool to have, 555 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 4: you know, a Native woman leading the Interior Department, the 556 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 4: department that governs our lands and Native affairs. And I 557 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 4: didn't think much of it, you know, like, we put 558 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of crazy names. 559 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: On our list, Like who was the craziest name? 560 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 3: We had Barbara Leeve for like a secretary of or something. 561 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, oh, because she voted against the Iraq War. 562 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: She was the one person who voted against the Iraq War. 563 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 3: Yes, the authorization used to force in the Iraq War. 564 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 4: We had Keith Ellison for AG because that would piss 565 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 4: off all the right people. You know, we might as 566 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 4: well put like the Lorax for epa secretary like that 567 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 4: was kind of where I was at. But for some 568 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 4: reason the deb Hollan thing really stuck. And because of 569 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 4: my position, as you know, a writer and thinker and activist, 570 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 4: I became somewhat of a like public advocate for her appointment, 571 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 4: and I did a bunch of reporting about it, and 572 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 4: eventually we actually got them to do it, which was 573 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 4: not what they were initially going to do. They were 574 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 4: initially going to give the job to the retiring Senator Udall, 575 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 4: even though his dad had actually already been the Interior Secretary. 576 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 4: So my point in general was like, give this job 577 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 4: to two Udalls before we give it to a single 578 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 4: neighbor person ever, And that ultimately, along with a number 579 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 4: of other arguments, and interestingly actually a positive vote from 580 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 4: the Republican senator from Alaska who feels a lot of 581 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 4: fealty towards natives who make up twenty percent of her 582 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 4: eight right, Lisa Marokowski, and also who's an adopted member 583 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 4: of a Tlinket clan. We ultimately got debed through. It 584 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 4: was a high water moment and definitely in retrospect, talk 585 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 4: to me. 586 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: About Democrats and how they can do better, Like that 587 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: story gets me into like a place of just such despair, 588 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: the idea that they were going to give that job 589 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: to a retiring male senator. Just give me two minutes 590 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: on like how they could do better. 591 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think that people want a party 592 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 4: of courage, you know, I think that people want a 593 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: party that's gonna not necessarily always chase the most electorally 594 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 4: you know, expedient sort of position, which nobody really knows anyways. 595 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 4: Everybody pretends like, you know, the outcomes for these elections. 596 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 4: Nobody knows how they're going to go. And I think 597 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 4: in a particularly moment like this one, I think that 598 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 4: they want leadership who's going to you know, take courageous 599 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 4: and sometimes risky stands for things that we believe in 600 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 4: at the same time. You know, I think that as 601 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 4: someone who came from sort of the activist side of 602 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 4: the Democratic Party broadly speaking, you know, I think that 603 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 4: we we have to also be honest about like what 604 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 4: we understand to be the ways that change happens, which 605 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 4: I think is remains a little bit of a complicated 606 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 4: and you know, a slightly unknown process. 607 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 3: You know. 608 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 4: I think, for example, younger in my career, I would 609 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 4: have been the kind of person who really believed in 610 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 4: like you know, direct action and protest and you know, 611 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 4: people like locking themselves to doors and things of that 612 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 4: nature as being what causes change. And what was really 613 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 4: interesting about, you know, the campaign to make deb the 614 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 4: Interior secretary is what we ended up doing was we 615 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 4: kind of we were an outsider group that used some 616 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 4: outsider tactics. You know. We got together progressive groups and 617 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 4: environmentalists and native groups, and we you know, really lobbied 618 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 4: hard from the outside to get this thing to happen. 619 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 4: But we also I think spoke the language of politics 620 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 4: and the people who make decisions. You know, we essentially 621 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 4: won a number of arguments over you know, the course 622 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 4: of a couple months to get her in there. We 623 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 4: convinced them that you know, they could replace her and 624 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 4: they wouldn't lose her seat in the House of Representatives. 625 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 4: We convinced them that by letting her leave the House 626 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 4: of Representatives, you know, they were actually going to signal 627 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 4: the strength of their majority because they weren't going to, 628 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 4: you know, deny a woman who'd been a great member 629 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 4: of the Democratic Caucus the promotion that she deserved. And 630 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 4: you know, also we managed to get some conservatives behind 631 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 4: the thing, which was a really interesting detail. And I 632 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 4: think something that is perhaps unique about Native issues in 633 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 4: politics in the United States. You know, very often Native 634 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 4: people come from rural parts of the country. You know, 635 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 4: our congressional representatives are often Republicans, and so we have 636 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 4: to know how to work across dial and there is 637 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 4: something unique about our issues that, you know, when we 638 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 4: need more spending for much needed social services, we can 639 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 4: talk to Democrats, and when we want a little bit 640 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 4: more freedom from the federal government, you know, the libertarian 641 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 4: streak in the Republican Party sometimes can find alliance with 642 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 4: people who see the federal government as a colonizer. And 643 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 4: I think that has been a really unique way that 644 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 4: Natives have been able to play both sides and get 645 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 4: what we need sometimes. 646 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: And also still deeply deeply screwed, largely by the federal government. 647 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 4: I mean, we have to be able to place both 648 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 4: sides because we are screwed, right. 649 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I've been to a bunch of different reservations 650 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: in New Mexico, and like, you know, for every casino, 651 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: there's twenty five. 652 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 4: Cooorest people in the country with the lowest outcomes on 653 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 4: every single measurement of misery, which necessitates being able to 654 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 4: figure out how to get stuff done with whoever the 655 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 4: heck is in power. 656 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I mean I think of 657 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 1: deb Holland as really a bright spot in that administration 658 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: and as a moment when the administration was able to 659 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: like really deliver on a promise. 660 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 3: I very much agree. 661 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: And Secretary of the Interior in this Republican administration is 662 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: just you know. 663 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 4: It hasn't been a significant focus of the media coverage 664 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 4: because there's so many going on, but I do think 665 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 4: it's worth, you know, just ruminating on the fact that 666 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 4: the last Interior Secretary was the first Native American cabinet 667 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 4: secretary in United States history, and that she, among other things, 668 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 4: you know, presided over a federal inquiry into the four 669 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 4: hundred and seventeen Native American boarding schools that Native children 670 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 4: were forcibly removed to and that that ultimately resulted in 671 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 4: an apology from the President of the United States because 672 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 4: of her work and the work of Indian country. And 673 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 4: now America's back on sale, you know, like and now 674 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 4: it's how much of the you know, federal lands can 675 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 4: be opened up to drilling, and you know how much 676 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 4: of the federal workforce that helps conserve these public lands? 677 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 4: You know, can we slash and burn so that we 678 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 4: can pay for the tax cuts for billionaires? 679 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: Julian, thank you so much for joining us. I hope 680 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: you'll come back. 681 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. May I'd love to come back. 682 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 683 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 684 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 685 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 686 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.