WEBVTT - Sink or Swim: An Agency Model Revolution 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.800 I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:05.640 going to have to start making better content. I think 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:07.160 we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.200 When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:12.280 I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.640 trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.200 happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:29.280 really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen. 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.040 Welcome back to Atlantia. Can you believe we're in August? No? 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:37.559 Where does it go? Anyway? We're going. We're going somewhere, 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:41.519 somewhere really good. So excited to have Nancy Hill the 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.879 media sharp slash agency sharp slash, just sharp. But you 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.760 need to know, you need to know. So. Nancy is 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.720 the former president and CEO of the four A's, the 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.600 AD industry trade organization, as well as a former executive 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:59.800 at many of the top UM agencies around the country 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:02.560 the world. We're excited to have her because she has 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:07.120 this really broad view of what's happening in the industry, 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:14.280 from UH female and diversity issues to creativity and the organization. 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.360 The new organizational structure that agencies need to be thinking about. 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.720 So I think that if you're going to take someone 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.399 and all of their experience in a career and be 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.320 able to kind of pluck, you know, key bits of knowledge, 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.920 Nancy Hill is one of those people. Yeah, one podcast, 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:31.800 Nancy Hill is one of those people that you want 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.360 to have with you doing that. Yeah. I think, you know, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.120 we talk a lot about old guard, new garden. I 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.319 think it's been interesting UM to see Nancy sort of 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:42.759 take what she knows and be able to apply those 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.400 lessons now to sort of the next generation of independent 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.080 shops and really helping UM to consult in building their 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.720 model and their staffing structures and their culture quite frankly, 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:54.880 to make sure that you know, they're not only able 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.480 to bring a new business of course, but also retain talent, 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.760 which as we know has been an ongoing topic on 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.960 this show UM and what drives UM the next generation 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:06.160 to want to be a part of this industry. And 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.079 one of the things that I think we've talked about 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.280 so much is the whole idea of like, don't just 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.160 butts and seeds, don't just staff, don't just resource, both 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.440 on the marketing side, right and on the agency side, 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.200 and what marketers are asking their agencies for look for talent. 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:24.119 I haven't We've talked about that, like um philosophically, right, 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:29.079 but I haven't met anyone who's actually helping agencies operationalize 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.840 that and actually take the dream and actually make it real. 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.040 And I think what's interesting is Nancy as a really 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.760 um strong and very clear perspective on what it takes 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.440 to do that and some of the kind of what 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.679 I would say is really simple but balls things that 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.760 agencies have to do to to start enacting a totally 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.360 cultural a bigger cultural change and therefore putting out better 0:02:52.480 --> 0:03:08.760 quality work with that. Nancy Hill up next. Yeah, and 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.320 we're back in the studio with Nancy Hill. Welcome to 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.840 the show, Nancy, Nancy, Happy to be here, ladies. Nancy 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.720 is the founder of Media Sherpas, which is a consultancy 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.600 and Nancy is the agency Sherpa. In addition to founding 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.280 Media sharp Is, Nancy has had an epic career in 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.680 our industry. Previously um president and CEO of the Four A's, 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.480 as well as the executive at a number of big 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.960 agencies including big and small, b B d O, T 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.960 b W, A, Shide Day, Donor I've worked in Baltimore, St. Louis, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.160 l A, San Francisco, and then New York. Nancy, what 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.000 sort of been the biggest change you've seen over the 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.520 course of your career that's been the most notable. I'd 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.640 say the most notable change for me is that we've 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:01.280 moved from a place where we would have a hard time, 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:04.839 uh saying we would We would never have a hard 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.640 time saying no to a client, and now we say 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:12.560 yes to everything. And I think it's really important for agencies, 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.080 especially young agencies, to learn that N and O form 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.800 a word, because they just chased the shiny objects too 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.240 many times and they get themselves into a lot of trouble. 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.080 The second thing, and they're kind of related to each other, 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.720 weirdly enough, is that we used to be an industry 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.599 that we could we had no trouble finding people to 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.279 come into the industry, and now the war on talent, 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.680 which you hear about odd nauseam, I know um, has 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.040 put us in a position where we as an industry 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.080 have to really really work hard to get the talent, 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.760 but even work harder once we get them in our 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.440 doors to keep them because they have so many other 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.640 options and I think if there's anything that I talked 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.760 to agencies about over and over and over again, it's 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.719 making sure that you have a culture that both attracts 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.839 great clients and great people at the same time, because 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:06.160 they're equally important. Is there the shiny object syndrome though? 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.200 Isn't it based a little bit on like the fear 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:14.640 of the fee? Right, That's what it's really been predicated on, 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:19.440 is like, we're losing retainers, We're losing you know, the big, 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.640 the big kind of um agency of record positions. Let's 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.279 go chase the dollars and everything, And if you think 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.440 about it, it's becoming a lot more like the way 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.240 architectural firms work, because if you think about the way 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.640 they work, it's always on a project basis. It's never 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:40.280 on an architectural firm of record. They've never had that, 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.800 but they've been light years ahead of us. And how 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.479 to make sure that they're getting paid for that and 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.799 get getting paid appropriately. I think, you know, we've always 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.360 compared ourselves to consultancies and to law firms. I think 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.640 we have to really take a step back and start 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.560 to think more along the lines of architecture firms and 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.360 brand design companies because that's the way they've always been hired. 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.880 I think some of the young agency is now because 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.280 they've had to work that way from the beginning, are 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.360 having a much easier time understanding how to work with 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.440 clients that way than some of the bigger agencies who 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.280 are kind of having a retrofit around the whole thing. Well, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.440 it's positioning, right, It's it's about actually having like a 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.560 real internal compass and having a real positioning for the 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.800 agency outside of a mission statement. That's not it's not 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.679 just a mission statement. It's not just a mission statement. 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.440 But it's also having the courage to say no um. 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.120 I remember working with a creative director many years ago 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.799 who when we were sitting around making a decision about 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.600 a piece of business that could have changed the agency overnight, 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:42.760 one of the things he said is we have to 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.560 be really careful about what we eat, because a minute 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.200 on the lips forever on the hips. It's the same 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:56.120 thing about So you recently spoke out in l A 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.279 at the at Age Small Agency Summit about culture. So 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.039 obviously these things you've described in terms of some of 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.880 the challenges like the word know, as well as how 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.720 we're retaining talent sort of fit into how culture might 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.720 be an important part of the mix. How are you 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:17.320 seeing the change happen in agency culture and sort of 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.080 what is the thing that some of the bigger companies 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.680 might not be seeing that the newer agencies have where 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.560 they're starting to become a magnet for talent. Well, I 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:28.960 think one of the things that we as an industry 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.880 have done a disservice to young people coming in is 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.200 that because we all worked our asses off, we all 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.320 got paid little money, we just assume that they're all 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.560 going to come in and do their time just like 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.120 we did. And the unfortunate part for us as an 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.720 industry is that they're not willing to do that. And 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.520 if you talk to young people these days about the 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.280 way they want to work, they even define themselves in 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.679 a completely different way than we did when we first 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.640 came into the business. So we have to be mindful 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.160 of that because they're the first generation who's not going 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.480 to bend over backwards to work the way we did. 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.080 We they want us to adapt to them, not the 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.720 other way around. And one of the things that I 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.560 talked about a lot is that burnout doesn't happen because 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.880 of hard work. Burnout happens because you think your hard 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.960 work isn't being recognized and value exactly, and and that's 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.840 where you get burnout. And you can see it when 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.880 you talk to young people in the industry. They almost 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.760 have a dejected look that comes from the top of 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.280 their head down and it'll just wash over their whole 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.920 face when you're having a conversation with them, because they're 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.000 just tired of not being recognized. Now, you could go 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.439 into the whole generational thing about whether they were recognized 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.240 too much growing up or not, but the reality is 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.280 that they're not like us, and they're not going to 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.680 work like us, and we have to recognize that. I 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.400 used to tell an example about a kid that I 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.120 knew who worked for me in San Francisco, and one 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.160 day he walked in and quit. He didn't work for 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.160 me directly, but he worked for the agency. And I 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.240 did a little digging and I said, here's this kid 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.200 who came out of a stellar at program and we 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:05.000 stuck him in the corner doing spreadsheets. He's excited about 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:06.880 being in advertising. He doesn't want to go sit in 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.760 a corner and do spreadsheets. We have to be mindful 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.160 about bringing people in and putting them in the appropriate 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.360 jobs for not only the skill set that they bring, 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.319 but the passion that they bring. How do you do that? 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.680 How do you balance groundwork with that passion? Well? I 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.880 think you know, I talked about this a little bit 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.120 last week in the speech that I gave, and I 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.240 think we have to institutionalize some knowledge of what people's 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:38.080 passions are um and I I think that, Uh, the 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.200 example that I gave is that when I started in 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.400 this business and somebody asked me when I was twenty 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:44.199 seven or twenty eight years old, what I did, I 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.800 would say, I'm an account person and an AD agency. 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.080 Will you talk to this generation coming into the business now? 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.960 They might say, I'm an account person and an AD agency, 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:55.040 and I have a fashion blog and I'm a DJ 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.199 on the weekends and photography is my real passion. What 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.240 we don't ask that, we don't know that. So how 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.480 are we going to when we have a pitch or 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.840 some project that we're working on, No, to bring Sally 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.360 in because she happens to be a passionate photographer. We 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.079 don't know that if we don't ask. And I think 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.000 we have to get better at making sure that we're 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.199 bringing letting people bring their whole self, whatever that looks like, 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.440 to the office every single day and not just stick 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.880 them in the corner to do spreadsheets. We've talked about 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.160 this a lot. Yeah, there's been a phrase floating around 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.640 UM that I think all of us are are starting 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.400 to not our heads on. Is this idea of a 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.760 culture ad not a culture fit. I many years ago 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.840 was calling somebody for a reference. And when I got 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.000 this person, very well known guy. In fact, it was 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.480 Bob Jeffrey, who was worldwide um j WT for years. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:44.800 I got him on the phone for this reference and 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.000 he said, before we even go any further, I just 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.280 want you to know she is one of those people 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.000 I want in my lifeboat. And I had my whole 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:54.520 list of questions I was going to ask, and I 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.000 was like, Okay, I'm gonna stop right there. That is 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.800 such a perfect way to think about the people that 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.960 you put on your team, because it doesn't necessarily mean 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.160 that they're going to fit in. It means that when 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.080 push comes to shove and you're in an emergency situation, 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.600 that's somebody you can depend on who's going to be 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.600 resourceful and is going to add to that team. That 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.560 has to get you out of whatever it is you're in. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.480 And I love that notion. Is there a role for 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.679 the marketer the client actually to say, stop staffing my 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:28.160 business with resources, start staffing my business with talent, and 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.480 make sure that they are well that these are people 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.040 who are not just going home at one am in 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.520 the morning to their community to Connecticut right and getting 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.679 up at four basically and hating their life, but that 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.840 they actually have side projects and side passions that they're 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.560 bringing in. Because I'm trying to get to that generation 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.840 of people anyway, I'm trying to sell to that generation 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.320 of people anyway, So I need their voice, Like, what's 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.280 the role of the marketer here, what's the role of 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.800 the client here. Well, you've seen some of that movement 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.400 with the marketers pushing for a more diverse workforce from 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.199 the agents. You saw certainly what Antonio Lucia did with 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.240 HP and CAN and taking people to CAN to expose 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.360 them and make sure that he was giving them the 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.440 opportunity that they might not otherwise get. So I think 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.360 you're going to have some enlightened marketers who are going 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.720 to push on that. Unfortunately, we still live and die 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.200 by the contracts that we have and filling bodies and 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.720 seats based on f t s and all of those 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.520 other things. And that's the other thing that I like 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.000 to work with with the agencies that I work with 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.360 on getting away from those kind of compensation agreements, because 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.360 all that does is put butts and seats and it 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.400 doesn't let people bring their whole self to work, because 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.319 you're ticking off a box, Alex. I love the transition 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.520 you talk about between resources to talent um, and you 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:49.880 know something that's been on my mind a lot lately. 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.120 It's just the idea of evaluating people based on the 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.840 percentage of time that they spend on enough business as 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.720 opposed to the value of the work that they're bringing 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.920 to the table. So I'm curious, Nancy. You know you 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.800 obviously worked at the fouries and a lot of them. Sure, 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.920 these conversations around models and change and transition were a 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:12.360 part of your daily um routine. What about the industry 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.240 do you wish would just go away? And what are 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.760 the things that you think will never learn from I 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.960 think the thing that I wish would go away is 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.720 being valued on a list of f t s and 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.200 some kind of arbitrary rate per hour that's even blended, 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.240 which is the words that that was the blended rate, 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.160 blended rate. It just makes no sense. And we we 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.640 let this happen to ourselves when we got off the 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.400 commission system and couldn't figure out exactly how to get paid. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.000 I think we have to move back to and I 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.480 know everybody's going to be rolling their eyes saying, oh, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.080 easier said than done to just make that move, But 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.240 I think we have to have some courage in the 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.760 way that we price what we do with our clients. 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.200 I remember so vividly sitting in a meeting with a 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.240 client and the client asking leek ow how long does 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.200 it take to come up with an idea? And lead 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.440 just sat there for a second, just let the beat pause, 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.440 and said five minutes. The problem is, I don't know 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.959 when that five minutes is going to happen. And that 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.560 gets to your point of the value that a person 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.760 brings that based is based on thirty five years experience 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.560 behind them, that has nothing to do with that hour 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.080 that you're spending at that moment. And I think we 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.560 have to get better at understanding that and getting away 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.640 from well, this person spends percent of their time and 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.400 that person spends thirty percent of the time. How do 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.280 you cut people up like that? You don't. The thing is, 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:40.720 we don't write because it was all bullshit. It's always 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.600 been bullshit, right, that's exactly. Are there models, Nancy that 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.920 you imagine in this sort of utopia of of the 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.440 agency world, UM, that you think could help address that? Yeah? 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.040 There are, and I UM. I have worked with several 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.840 of my clients and I've worked at the four ways 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.400 and been very public of about them. I think it 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:06.040 starts with separating what we do into thinking about it 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.640 from a standpoint of idea generation, idea management, and an 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.360 idea execution, which really have very different weights on them 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.120 in terms of long term value to a client. And 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.560 if we start talking to clients about it from that 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.320 perspective and move away from the day to day that 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:27.520 it really doesn't bring long term brand value to them, 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.080 then we can start talking about the value that the 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.840 idea comes in. But you know, the other question you 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.240 asked me is um one of the things that we'll 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.080 just never learn is to say no UM. And again, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.840 I think part of it is, you know, especially with 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.200 young agencies, they're small businesses, they're afraid that if they 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:48.120 say no, that the clients never going to come back. 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.880 They're afraid that if they say no to a proposal, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:52.680 that the clients never going to come back. I'll just 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.520 tell you one other quick story. I had a client 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.160 when I was at the four A's who needed to 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:03.040 have a conversation with me moderating a conversation with one 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.440 of their agencies about something that they wanted in the 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.920 contract that the agency did not. And after that we 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.080 got off the phone, the client called me separately and said, Nancy, 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.320 I just want you to know we've had this. We've 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.200 had that contract in front of twenty six agencies. This 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.360 is the only one that pushed back. And that clause 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.440 that was in that contract was terrible for agencies, and 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.720 it just I think that we're really doing ourselves a 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.440 disservice when we don't value what we do enough to 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.320 be confident about it. I also always took exception going 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.840 back to even to the commission system, that it put 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.440 uh the emphasis in the wrong place. It put an 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.520 emphasis on volume, non quality. We have to get back 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.280 to a place where we're emphasizing the quality that we're 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.280 bringing to the table. And again, I hate to beat 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.440 the architecture model to death. But when you hire an 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.400 architectural firm to do your house or your business or 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.000 you're you're never looking at how much you're paying each 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.840 employee on an hour by hour base. Yes, that's right, 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.720 So what does this actually what could this look like? 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.160 Because when you say courage, I'm like, what does courage 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.520 really mean? You know, largely my practice is focused on 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.879 independence and for independence who may eventually become part of 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.080 the holding companies, but right now they have the ability 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.119 to make those decisions themselves and say no to clients 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.400 um and be willing to take a risk that this 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.600 client is not really the right client for them. If 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:31.639 that's all the client is focused on, how do they 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:37.320 go about designing the their mindset right and their process 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.040 to evaluate right and wrong a right client versus a 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.800 wrong client outside of gut, outside of just intellectual right 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.719 like power and chemistry and gut like, what what are 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.440 those things that you're helping them design culturally and other 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.359 things that are prompts for that? Well, I think you 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.840 have to ask a lot of questions. And I'm a 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.120 big believer in and garbage and garbage out and so 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.720 totally if you're not getting the right answers to the 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.360 questions that you have about the brief, about the project, 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.840 about what success looks like, what the budget is. I 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:13.840 can't tell you how many times clients walk in and 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:15.680 they don't know what the budget is and they ask 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.719 you to tell them. That is a huge red flag 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.040 because that says to me that they really haven't given 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.639 this the consideration that they really need to in terms 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:28.480 of not only what they're willing to spend, but what 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.160 they're willing to pay you. Um. And so when they 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.879 get down to the negotiations, the last thing on their 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:35.600 mind is how much I have to pay the agency. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.960 It's how much of a I spending in total. I 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.520 think that there are a lot of questions that you 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.760 can ask clients, just like you would a potential employee, 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.160 about what it is that they're bringing to the table, 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.879 just as much as you're bringing to the table. I agree. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.840 So talking about trade organizations, what's their role today and 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.320 how do they live on in the future. Well, one 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.080 of the things about trade organization sens is it's kind 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.520 of like the utilities. You don't really notice that they're 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.040 not there until the electricity goes off. Um. And so 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.679 many people don't understand what trade organizations actually do for 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:17.280 the industry. It's it's it's that was really awesome analogy. 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.000 It's very complicated, and even when I got to the Forays, 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.159 it took me a good year to understand everything that 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.000 they did. I there was not a day that went 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:27.960 by and went we do that. Really, I didn't know. 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.639 And I've been in the industry for over thirty years 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.919 at that point, and so it doesn't surprise me that 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.159 people look at it from the outside and say that 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.520 they're old and they're dusty, and they need to do 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.600 things to stay relevant. So all of that said, in 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.399 terms of their like a utility, there are things that 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.399 they could be doing, I think to reach the young people. 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.840 The fact of the matter is that they're stretched. They're 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.600 stretched on the number of staff they have. They're stretched 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.480 because of the money that they're bringing in every year. 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.000 That's a relatively small budget um for it's a non 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.320 in profit. People probably don't even realize that um and 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.600 so there's only so much you can do. And I 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.440 think that and this is also true of any business. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.360 I have a phrase that somebody said to me one 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:17.159 time that I've never forgotten, which is Nancy. Anything is possible, 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.960 everything is not, and when you think about it, it's 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.640 it's really a good thing to keep in mind because 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.800 anything is possible, there's no question, but you can't do 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:28.639 all of it, and you can't do all of it 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.800 because you don't have the resources, either financially or people wise. 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.880 I think that engaging young people was something that I 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.399 was really focused on. But what happened for me two 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:43.160 things UM in my last five years at the Four Ways. 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.720 One was the whole discussion on transparency and more personally, 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.320 the whole discussion about women in the in the industry. 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:54.360 It was personal, it was important UM. I was always 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.399 a champion of diversity and inclusion, but I came I 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.399 became a very loud and vocal voice on the front 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.760 of women UM because I felt like somebody had to 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.960 and I think too many people were too quiet for 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:11.000 too long, and then we absolutely as an industry had 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:15.560 our me to moment um. But I think sometimes the 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.680 trade and trade associations can take a stand on these 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.280 things that nobody else can because they have political reasons 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.240