1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: going to have to start making better content. I think 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 4 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 5 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're 6 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen. 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Atlantia. Can you believe we're in August? No? 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: Where does it go? Anyway? We're going. We're going somewhere, 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: somewhere really good. So excited to have Nancy Hill the 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: media sharp slash agency sharp slash, just sharp. But you 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: need to know, you need to know. So. Nancy is 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: the former president and CEO of the four A's, the 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: AD industry trade organization, as well as a former executive 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: at many of the top UM agencies around the country 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: the world. We're excited to have her because she has 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: this really broad view of what's happening in the industry, 19 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: from UH female and diversity issues to creativity and the organization. 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: The new organizational structure that agencies need to be thinking about. 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: So I think that if you're going to take someone 22 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: and all of their experience in a career and be 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: able to kind of pluck, you know, key bits of knowledge, 24 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: Nancy Hill is one of those people. Yeah, one podcast, 25 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Hill is one of those people that you want 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: to have with you doing that. Yeah. I think, you know, 27 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: we talk a lot about old guard, new garden. I 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: think it's been interesting UM to see Nancy sort of 29 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: take what she knows and be able to apply those 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: lessons now to sort of the next generation of independent 31 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: shops and really helping UM to consult in building their 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: model and their staffing structures and their culture quite frankly, 33 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: to make sure that you know, they're not only able 34 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: to bring a new business of course, but also retain talent, 35 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: which as we know has been an ongoing topic on 36 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: this show UM and what drives UM the next generation 37 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: to want to be a part of this industry. And 38 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think we've talked about 39 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: so much is the whole idea of like, don't just 40 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: butts and seeds, don't just staff, don't just resource, both 41 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: on the marketing side, right and on the agency side, 42 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: and what marketers are asking their agencies for look for talent. 43 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 1: I haven't We've talked about that, like um philosophically, right, 44 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: but I haven't met anyone who's actually helping agencies operationalize 45 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: that and actually take the dream and actually make it real. 46 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: And I think what's interesting is Nancy as a really 47 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: um strong and very clear perspective on what it takes 48 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: to do that and some of the kind of what 49 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: I would say is really simple but balls things that 50 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: agencies have to do to to start enacting a totally 51 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: cultural a bigger cultural change and therefore putting out better 52 00:02:52,480 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: quality work with that. Nancy Hill up next. Yeah, and 53 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: we're back in the studio with Nancy Hill. Welcome to 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: the show, Nancy, Nancy, Happy to be here, ladies. Nancy 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: is the founder of Media Sherpas, which is a consultancy 56 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: and Nancy is the agency Sherpa. In addition to founding 57 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: Media sharp Is, Nancy has had an epic career in 58 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: our industry. Previously um president and CEO of the Four A's, 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: as well as the executive at a number of big 60 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: agencies including big and small, b B d O, T 61 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: b W, A, Shide Day, Donor I've worked in Baltimore, St. Louis, 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: l A, San Francisco, and then New York. Nancy, what 63 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: sort of been the biggest change you've seen over the 64 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: course of your career that's been the most notable. I'd 65 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: say the most notable change for me is that we've 66 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: moved from a place where we would have a hard time, 67 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 1: uh saying we would We would never have a hard 68 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: time saying no to a client, and now we say 69 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: yes to everything. And I think it's really important for agencies, 70 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: especially young agencies, to learn that N and O form 71 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: a word, because they just chased the shiny objects too 72 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: many times and they get themselves into a lot of trouble. 73 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: The second thing, and they're kind of related to each other, 74 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: weirdly enough, is that we used to be an industry 75 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: that we could we had no trouble finding people to 76 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: come into the industry, and now the war on talent, 77 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: which you hear about odd nauseam, I know um, has 78 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: put us in a position where we as an industry 79 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: have to really really work hard to get the talent, 80 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: but even work harder once we get them in our 81 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: doors to keep them because they have so many other 82 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: options and I think if there's anything that I talked 83 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: to agencies about over and over and over again, it's 84 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: making sure that you have a culture that both attracts 85 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: great clients and great people at the same time, because 86 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: they're equally important. Is there the shiny object syndrome though? 87 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: Isn't it based a little bit on like the fear 88 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: of the fee? Right, That's what it's really been predicated on, 89 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: is like, we're losing retainers, We're losing you know, the big, 90 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: the big kind of um agency of record positions. Let's 91 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: go chase the dollars and everything, And if you think 92 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: about it, it's becoming a lot more like the way 93 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: architectural firms work, because if you think about the way 94 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: they work, it's always on a project basis. It's never 95 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: on an architectural firm of record. They've never had that, 96 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: but they've been light years ahead of us. And how 97 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: to make sure that they're getting paid for that and 98 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: get getting paid appropriately. I think, you know, we've always 99 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: compared ourselves to consultancies and to law firms. I think 100 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: we have to really take a step back and start 101 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: to think more along the lines of architecture firms and 102 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: brand design companies because that's the way they've always been hired. 103 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: I think some of the young agency is now because 104 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: they've had to work that way from the beginning, are 105 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: having a much easier time understanding how to work with 106 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: clients that way than some of the bigger agencies who 107 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: are kind of having a retrofit around the whole thing. Well, 108 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: it's positioning, right, It's it's about actually having like a 109 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: real internal compass and having a real positioning for the 110 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: agency outside of a mission statement. That's not it's not 111 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: just a mission statement. It's not just a mission statement. 112 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: But it's also having the courage to say no um. 113 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: I remember working with a creative director many years ago 114 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 1: who when we were sitting around making a decision about 115 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: a piece of business that could have changed the agency overnight, 116 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: one of the things he said is we have to 117 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: be really careful about what we eat, because a minute 118 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: on the lips forever on the hips. It's the same 119 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: thing about So you recently spoke out in l A 120 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: at the at Age Small Agency Summit about culture. So 121 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: obviously these things you've described in terms of some of 122 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: the challenges like the word know, as well as how 123 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: we're retaining talent sort of fit into how culture might 124 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: be an important part of the mix. How are you 125 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: seeing the change happen in agency culture and sort of 126 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: what is the thing that some of the bigger companies 127 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: might not be seeing that the newer agencies have where 128 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: they're starting to become a magnet for talent. Well, I 129 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: think one of the things that we as an industry 130 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: have done a disservice to young people coming in is 131 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: that because we all worked our asses off, we all 132 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: got paid little money, we just assume that they're all 133 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: going to come in and do their time just like 134 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: we did. And the unfortunate part for us as an 135 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: industry is that they're not willing to do that. And 136 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: if you talk to young people these days about the 137 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: way they want to work, they even define themselves in 138 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 1: a completely different way than we did when we first 139 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: came into the business. So we have to be mindful 140 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: of that because they're the first generation who's not going 141 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: to bend over backwards to work the way we did. 142 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: We they want us to adapt to them, not the 143 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: other way around. And one of the things that I 144 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: talked about a lot is that burnout doesn't happen because 145 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: of hard work. Burnout happens because you think your hard 146 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: work isn't being recognized and value exactly, and and that's 147 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: where you get burnout. And you can see it when 148 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: you talk to young people in the industry. They almost 149 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: have a dejected look that comes from the top of 150 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: their head down and it'll just wash over their whole 151 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: face when you're having a conversation with them, because they're 152 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: just tired of not being recognized. Now, you could go 153 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: into the whole generational thing about whether they were recognized 154 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: too much growing up or not, but the reality is 155 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: that they're not like us, and they're not going to 156 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: work like us, and we have to recognize that. I 157 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: used to tell an example about a kid that I 158 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: knew who worked for me in San Francisco, and one 159 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: day he walked in and quit. He didn't work for 160 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: me directly, but he worked for the agency. And I 161 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: did a little digging and I said, here's this kid 162 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: who came out of a stellar at program and we 163 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: stuck him in the corner doing spreadsheets. He's excited about 164 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: being in advertising. He doesn't want to go sit in 165 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: a corner and do spreadsheets. We have to be mindful 166 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: about bringing people in and putting them in the appropriate 167 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: jobs for not only the skill set that they bring, 168 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: but the passion that they bring. How do you do that? 169 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: How do you balance groundwork with that passion? Well? I 170 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: think you know, I talked about this a little bit 171 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: last week in the speech that I gave, and I 172 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: think we have to institutionalize some knowledge of what people's 173 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: passions are um and I I think that, Uh, the 174 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: example that I gave is that when I started in 175 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: this business and somebody asked me when I was twenty 176 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: seven or twenty eight years old, what I did, I 177 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: would say, I'm an account person and an AD agency. 178 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: Will you talk to this generation coming into the business now? 179 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: They might say, I'm an account person and an AD agency, 180 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: and I have a fashion blog and I'm a DJ 181 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: on the weekends and photography is my real passion. What 182 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: we don't ask that, we don't know that. So how 183 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: are we going to when we have a pitch or 184 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: some project that we're working on, No, to bring Sally 185 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: in because she happens to be a passionate photographer. We 186 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: don't know that if we don't ask. And I think 187 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: we have to get better at making sure that we're 188 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: bringing letting people bring their whole self, whatever that looks like, 189 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: to the office every single day and not just stick 190 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: them in the corner to do spreadsheets. We've talked about 191 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: this a lot. Yeah, there's been a phrase floating around 192 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: UM that I think all of us are are starting 193 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: to not our heads on. Is this idea of a 194 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: culture ad not a culture fit. I many years ago 195 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: was calling somebody for a reference. And when I got 196 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: this person, very well known guy. In fact, it was 197 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: Bob Jeffrey, who was worldwide um j WT for years. 198 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: I got him on the phone for this reference and 199 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: he said, before we even go any further, I just 200 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: want you to know she is one of those people 201 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: I want in my lifeboat. And I had my whole 202 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: list of questions I was going to ask, and I 203 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I'm gonna stop right there. That is 204 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: such a perfect way to think about the people that 205 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: you put on your team, because it doesn't necessarily mean 206 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: that they're going to fit in. It means that when 207 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: push comes to shove and you're in an emergency situation, 208 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: that's somebody you can depend on who's going to be 209 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: resourceful and is going to add to that team. That 210 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: has to get you out of whatever it is you're in. 211 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: And I love that notion. Is there a role for 212 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: the marketer the client actually to say, stop staffing my 213 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: business with resources, start staffing my business with talent, and 214 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: make sure that they are well that these are people 215 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: who are not just going home at one am in 216 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: the morning to their community to Connecticut right and getting 217 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: up at four basically and hating their life, but that 218 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: they actually have side projects and side passions that they're 219 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: bringing in. Because I'm trying to get to that generation 220 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: of people anyway, I'm trying to sell to that generation 221 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: of people anyway, So I need their voice, Like, what's 222 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: the role of the marketer here, what's the role of 223 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: the client here. Well, you've seen some of that movement 224 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: with the marketers pushing for a more diverse workforce from 225 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: the agents. You saw certainly what Antonio Lucia did with 226 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: HP and CAN and taking people to CAN to expose 227 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: them and make sure that he was giving them the 228 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: opportunity that they might not otherwise get. So I think 229 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: you're going to have some enlightened marketers who are going 230 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: to push on that. Unfortunately, we still live and die 231 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: by the contracts that we have and filling bodies and 232 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: seats based on f t s and all of those 233 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: other things. And that's the other thing that I like 234 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: to work with with the agencies that I work with 235 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: on getting away from those kind of compensation agreements, because 236 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: all that does is put butts and seats and it 237 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: doesn't let people bring their whole self to work, because 238 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: you're ticking off a box, Alex. I love the transition 239 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: you talk about between resources to talent um, and you 240 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: know something that's been on my mind a lot lately. 241 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: It's just the idea of evaluating people based on the 242 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: percentage of time that they spend on enough business as 243 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: opposed to the value of the work that they're bringing 244 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: to the table. So I'm curious, Nancy. You know you 245 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: obviously worked at the fouries and a lot of them. Sure, 246 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: these conversations around models and change and transition were a 247 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: part of your daily um routine. What about the industry 248 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: do you wish would just go away? And what are 249 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: the things that you think will never learn from I 250 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: think the thing that I wish would go away is 251 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: being valued on a list of f t s and 252 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: some kind of arbitrary rate per hour that's even blended, 253 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: which is the words that that was the blended rate, 254 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: blended rate. It just makes no sense. And we we 255 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: let this happen to ourselves when we got off the 256 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: commission system and couldn't figure out exactly how to get paid. 257 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: I think we have to move back to and I 258 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: know everybody's going to be rolling their eyes saying, oh, 259 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: easier said than done to just make that move, But 260 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: I think we have to have some courage in the 261 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: way that we price what we do with our clients. 262 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: I remember so vividly sitting in a meeting with a 263 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: client and the client asking leek ow how long does 264 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: it take to come up with an idea? And lead 265 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: just sat there for a second, just let the beat pause, 266 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: and said five minutes. The problem is, I don't know 267 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: when that five minutes is going to happen. And that 268 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: gets to your point of the value that a person 269 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: brings that based is based on thirty five years experience 270 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: behind them, that has nothing to do with that hour 271 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: that you're spending at that moment. And I think we 272 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: have to get better at understanding that and getting away 273 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: from well, this person spends percent of their time and 274 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: that person spends thirty percent of the time. How do 275 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: you cut people up like that? You don't. The thing is, 276 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: we don't write because it was all bullshit. It's always 277 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: been bullshit, right, that's exactly. Are there models, Nancy that 278 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: you imagine in this sort of utopia of of the 279 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: agency world, UM, that you think could help address that? Yeah? 280 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: There are, and I UM. I have worked with several 281 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: of my clients and I've worked at the four ways 282 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: and been very public of about them. I think it 283 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: starts with separating what we do into thinking about it 284 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: from a standpoint of idea generation, idea management, and an 285 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: idea execution, which really have very different weights on them 286 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: in terms of long term value to a client. And 287 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: if we start talking to clients about it from that 288 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: perspective and move away from the day to day that 289 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: it really doesn't bring long term brand value to them, 290 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: then we can start talking about the value that the 291 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: idea comes in. But you know, the other question you 292 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: asked me is um one of the things that we'll 293 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: just never learn is to say no UM. And again, 294 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: I think part of it is, you know, especially with 295 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: young agencies, they're small businesses, they're afraid that if they 296 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: say no, that the clients never going to come back. 297 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: They're afraid that if they say no to a proposal, 298 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: that the clients never going to come back. I'll just 299 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: tell you one other quick story. I had a client 300 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: when I was at the four A's who needed to 301 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: have a conversation with me moderating a conversation with one 302 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: of their agencies about something that they wanted in the 303 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: contract that the agency did not. And after that we 304 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: got off the phone, the client called me separately and said, Nancy, 305 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: I just want you to know we've had this. We've 306 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: had that contract in front of twenty six agencies. This 307 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: is the only one that pushed back. And that clause 308 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: that was in that contract was terrible for agencies, and 309 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: it just I think that we're really doing ourselves a 310 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: disservice when we don't value what we do enough to 311 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: be confident about it. I also always took exception going 312 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: back to even to the commission system, that it put 313 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: uh the emphasis in the wrong place. It put an 314 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: emphasis on volume, non quality. We have to get back 315 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: to a place where we're emphasizing the quality that we're 316 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: bringing to the table. And again, I hate to beat 317 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: the architecture model to death. But when you hire an 318 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: architectural firm to do your house or your business or 319 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: you're you're never looking at how much you're paying each 320 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: employee on an hour by hour base. Yes, that's right, 321 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: So what does this actually what could this look like? 322 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: Because when you say courage, I'm like, what does courage 323 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: really mean? You know, largely my practice is focused on 324 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: independence and for independence who may eventually become part of 325 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: the holding companies, but right now they have the ability 326 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: to make those decisions themselves and say no to clients 327 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: um and be willing to take a risk that this 328 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: client is not really the right client for them. If 329 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: that's all the client is focused on, how do they 330 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: go about designing the their mindset right and their process 331 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: to evaluate right and wrong a right client versus a 332 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: wrong client outside of gut, outside of just intellectual right 333 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,719 Speaker 1: like power and chemistry and gut like, what what are 334 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: those things that you're helping them design culturally and other 335 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: things that are prompts for that? Well, I think you 336 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: have to ask a lot of questions. And I'm a 337 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: big believer in and garbage and garbage out and so 338 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: totally if you're not getting the right answers to the 339 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: questions that you have about the brief, about the project, 340 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: about what success looks like, what the budget is. I 341 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times clients walk in and 342 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: they don't know what the budget is and they ask 343 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,719 Speaker 1: you to tell them. That is a huge red flag 344 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: because that says to me that they really haven't given 345 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: this the consideration that they really need to in terms 346 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: of not only what they're willing to spend, but what 347 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: they're willing to pay you. Um. And so when they 348 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: get down to the negotiations, the last thing on their 349 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: mind is how much I have to pay the agency. 350 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: It's how much of a I spending in total. I 351 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: think that there are a lot of questions that you 352 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: can ask clients, just like you would a potential employee, 353 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: about what it is that they're bringing to the table, 354 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: just as much as you're bringing to the table. I agree. 355 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: So talking about trade organizations, what's their role today and 356 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: how do they live on in the future. Well, one 357 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: of the things about trade organization sens is it's kind 358 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: of like the utilities. You don't really notice that they're 359 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: not there until the electricity goes off. Um. And so 360 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: many people don't understand what trade organizations actually do for 361 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: the industry. It's it's it's that was really awesome analogy. 362 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: It's very complicated, and even when I got to the Forays, 363 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: it took me a good year to understand everything that 364 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: they did. I there was not a day that went 365 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: by and went we do that. Really, I didn't know. 366 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: And I've been in the industry for over thirty years 367 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: at that point, and so it doesn't surprise me that 368 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: people look at it from the outside and say that 369 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: they're old and they're dusty, and they need to do 370 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: things to stay relevant. So all of that said, in 371 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: terms of their like a utility, there are things that 372 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: they could be doing, I think to reach the young people. 373 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: The fact of the matter is that they're stretched. They're 374 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: stretched on the number of staff they have. They're stretched 375 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: because of the money that they're bringing in every year. 376 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: That's a relatively small budget um for it's a non 377 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: in profit. People probably don't even realize that um and 378 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: so there's only so much you can do. And I 379 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: think that and this is also true of any business. 380 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: I have a phrase that somebody said to me one 381 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: time that I've never forgotten, which is Nancy. Anything is possible, 382 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: everything is not, and when you think about it, it's 383 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: it's really a good thing to keep in mind because 384 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: anything is possible, there's no question, but you can't do 385 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: all of it, and you can't do all of it 386 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: because you don't have the resources, either financially or people wise. 387 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: I think that engaging young people was something that I 388 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: was really focused on. But what happened for me two 389 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: things UM in my last five years at the Four Ways. 390 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: One was the whole discussion on transparency and more personally, 391 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: the whole discussion about women in the in the industry. 392 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: It was personal, it was important UM. I was always 393 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: a champion of diversity and inclusion, but I came I 394 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: became a very loud and vocal voice on the front 395 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: of women UM because I felt like somebody had to 396 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: and I think too many people were too quiet for 397 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: too long, and then we absolutely as an industry had 398 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: our me to moment um. But I think sometimes the 399 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: trade and trade associations can take a stand on these 400 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: things that nobody else can because they have political reasons 401 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: they can't, they have client reasons that they can't. And 402 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: the one thing that the trade associations can do is 403 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 1: be the voice, and they are. I think they're starting 404 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: to to to do that more. At the IB just 405 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: had a women Visionaries UM conference that was I was there. 406 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: It was impressive, it was exciting and the energy in 407 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: the room it was probably three they were at capacity 408 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: or over capacity at three people, and it felt like 409 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: two people were in the room because the energy was 410 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: so personal when I love what Randall and team have 411 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: been doing over the IB is bridging the gap between 412 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: sort of the traditional players and some of the legacy 413 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: UM speakers that have been on the circuit and up 414 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: and really making I think a great effort to find 415 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: new and interesting UM talent in the space to to 416 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: mix up the conversation. Why, Nancy, do you think the 417 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: trade organizations have struggled to either understand or adapt or 418 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: engage the next generation. Again, it's really hard to be 419 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: all things to all people, and when you have limited resources, 420 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: you have to focus on the big meatya industry issues UM. 421 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: The Forays in particular did try to tackle getting the 422 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,959 Speaker 1: younger generation involved UM and it became something that was 423 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: just beyond our resources. When I was there, UM, I 424 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: think that there's a ground swell right now going on 425 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: in the industry with younger, younger generation. That's basically saying 426 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: I want to be involved, get me involved. And what 427 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: I will say to that generation is, okay, you raise 428 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: your hand. You're about to get called on. Once we 429 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: get to a place where we're breaking down the old 430 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: mentality and I will say white male mentality, because that's 431 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: what it has been. And that's not a bashing of 432 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: white males, but that's just the circle we've lived in. 433 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: Until we get past that, we're never going to create 434 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: an environment where people feel safe having those conversations. Is 435 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: there one thing that you look back at your early 436 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: career self and say, I wish I wish I knew 437 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: this all. I wish I could tell myself this, I 438 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: would have taken better care of myself earlier. It's not 439 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: just about diet, It's about everything. It's about diet and 440 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: exercise and family and travel and reading and all of 441 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: the things that feed my soul and making sure that 442 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: I had time for that because I just worked my 443 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: ass off. Um And while I recognize that as an 444 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: industry that it kind of requires us to, I think 445 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: that even if I had given myself more balance, I 446 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: would have been a happier person earlier. I feel really 447 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: good about where I am now, but it took me 448 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: a long time to get here. Now that you're sort 449 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: of on the periphery, sort of looking and advising the 450 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: thing that's happening, UM at the core of the industry. Um, 451 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: are there things that surprise you looking from that vantage 452 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: point that you didn't realize while you were on the 453 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: inside sort of running agencies. Uh, well, I've I've had 454 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: a lot more honest conversations with clients and the last 455 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: I'd say probably five to eight years because I'm not 456 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: courting them, so I I haven't had to have the 457 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: kinds of dance conversations that you have about I don't 458 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: want to piss this person off because they might be 459 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: a client, so I can ask pointed questions. And I 460 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: think the thing that surprises me is how much agencies 461 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: still to this day don't realize that clients see right 462 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: through them when they either do or say certain things. Um. 463 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: The fact that agencies will walk in and tell a 464 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: client that they're very different because of this, this, this, 465 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: and this, and the client will look at me and say, 466 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: every agency says the exact same thing. UM. And I 467 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: think and that's been going on for as long as 468 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: I can remember, so none of that has changed. You'd 469 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: like to think it has changed, especially with a new 470 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: generation coming in, but clients see straight through that. I 471 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: think one of the things I try to emphasize with 472 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: the agencies that I work with now is don't try 473 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: to bullshir your clients. Be transparent. And when I say that, 474 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is let them know exactly 475 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: what they're going to get. Let your employees know exactly 476 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: what they're going to get, because guess what, if you 477 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: think you're hiding something from them, you're not. They're going 478 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: to find out. And I think that all of these 479 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: things bode well for the industry as we start to 480 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: move through this next generation. And dare I say the 481 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: next creative revolution that's going to happen, because I think 482 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: everybody's going to be a lot healthier and happier. But 483 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: until we get to a place where people stopped playing games, 484 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: it's just not going to happen. Do you think that 485 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: the next creative revolution is somewhat dependent on this new 486 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: kind of structure that you're talking about in terms of absolutely, absolutely, 487 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: because I think that we have to put ourselves in 488 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: the best position possible to do the best work possible. 489 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: And right now, with the structure that we've had with 490 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: the contractual arrangements with clients, were not in the best position. 491 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: I mean, let's just take the percentage of the person's 492 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: time each week. Okay, you get of this person. Does 493 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: that mean they stop working at Does that mean the 494 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: ideas as big and grand as it could be because 495 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: they just stopped working? It just makes no sense. That's 496 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: like expecting I'm going to stop at the appetizer, Like 497 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: it's not stuff I'm not going to like. Again, that's 498 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: made up. Like have you ever stopped work even though 499 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: you're staffed fIF on someone's business? No? I know. But 500 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: now you've got people in agencies because they have to 501 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: making sure that they're managing scope and and chicking off 502 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: every time that somebody's time sheets are coming in because 503 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: and they're telling people to stop working because they have 504 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: to um and because because they're stretched at that cross 505 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: three or four clients. And it's just impossible to do 506 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 1: your best work when you're being told that you only 507 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: have a certain amount of time to work on a project. Yeah, 508 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: it goes back to the five minute rule. That's exactly right. 509 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: So we're going to slow ourselves down and tell me 510 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: I think restructure. That's really what it sounds like. I 511 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: think we have to so, Nancy, some of the things 512 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: that we're seeing in the market, it sounds like as 513 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: much as things change, they stay the same. Are there 514 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: signals to you of great leaders um, whether leaders of 515 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: years past or or of the future, that you see 516 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: consistent in terms of the qualities or skill sets that 517 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: it requires to go from one creative revolution to the next. 518 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: I think the thing that is most important for anybody 519 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: who's in a leadership position in a creative organization is 520 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: to recognize that your job as a leader in that 521 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: organization is to create an environment where people can do 522 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: their best work. Period. That's your job. I don't care 523 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: what form that takes, because it's going to be a 524 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: little bit different for every person in every rnzation. But 525 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: if you start thinking about the fact that you are 526 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: a servant leader in service to the work, through the 527 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: people that you have employed there and to the clients 528 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: that you bring in, and start making that your focus 529 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: every single day, then there's no limit to what you're 530 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: going to be able to produce coming out of that 531 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: kind of an environment. I say that on the marketing 532 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: side as well, and not just on the agency. I 533 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: actually think on the marketing side, on the client side, 534 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: it's as important in some cases, if not more important, 535 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: because we are so dictating how our agencies show up, 536 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: how they're staffed, what we allow them to come to 537 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: us about, and not because we shut down ideas all 538 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: the time. I think that on the marketing side it's 539 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: um probably even more important that that leaders are are 540 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: are kind of that. Well, it's time to hear from 541 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: the sharper herself what you would kill buy and d I, 542 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: y you are up? What would you kill? I would 543 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: kill all the FTE model yes, check, I would buy 544 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: Facebook stock right now. You would give us down? They 545 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: will rebound. There was no question in my mind. And 546 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: do I why I would say a new network of 547 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: some sort and I don't mean broadcast network, but I 548 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: think some new network that allows for all of the 549 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: creative people, not just in the advertising industry, to work 550 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: with each other on an easier basis. I love that. 551 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: I love that actually may come back and we'll talk 552 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: about that design that one. So, Nancy, if people want 553 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: to have you consult or sharpen them. Where can they 554 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: reach you? So my Twitter handle is at an H. Hill. 555 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 1: My middle name is Howard. I'm letting that so the 556 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: initial in the middle is an H. Hill and and 557 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: my email address, which is the easiest way to find 558 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: me as Nancy H. At the agency sherpa dot com. Nancy, 559 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you, Nancy. Did you know 560 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: Nancy's middle name was Howard by the way, I didn't, 561 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: But you know, if there's any sharp I want in 562 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: my life, I want to Nancy Howard Hill. Thank you 563 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: so much Nancy for dropping in and sharing all of 564 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: your insight and knowledge with us. And I think I 565 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: hope the industry will take some of her words um 566 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: to good use and put them into practice, because I 567 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: think we'll be better for it. Thank you. Our producer, 568 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: Dana Matt Turk, Andy Bowers, all of our friends and 569 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: family at Panoply at Landia will talk to you in 570 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: two weeks. Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.