1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: I'm Fair Dowdy and I'm Deblina Choko reporting. And in 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: a recent episode we talked about the famous Wanna La 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: Loca or Joanna the mad Um, a frequent listener request, 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: very frequent request, and, as I admitted in the last show, 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: a subject I originally considered covering during Halloween. But I 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: don't even really want to call her Wanna Lia Loca anymore. 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: Once you research her story, it starts to sound kind 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: of mean. For a lot of reasons. Wanna of Castile 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: was a queen in her own right, and one who 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: seemed to be um pretty badly treated by some of 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: the most important people in her life, her father Ferdinand 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: as in Ferdinand and Isabella, her husband Philip of Burgundy, 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: and her son Charles Um. It's a disturbing story, partly 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: because it still is so unclear how bad off was 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: Laanna really and why did she make the decisions that 18 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: she made, And we may speculate about that a little 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: bit in this part too. But where we left off 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: last time, Juanna had come into a very unlikely inheritance 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: She was the third child of her parents, Fernand and 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: Isabella of Spain, but through a series of unfortunate deaths, 23 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,279 Speaker 1: she became their heir. I Wanna return to Spain after 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: receiving that news, along with her husband Philip. For some years, 25 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: Philip and Juanna had had a pretty explosive relationship, one 26 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: where Philip was certainly mentally abusive towards Wanna, perhaps physically abusive, 27 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: and her parents were disturbed, not just because of the 28 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: personal relationship her daughter had with her husband, but also 29 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: because of Philip's own politics. He wasn't unabashedly pro Spanish. 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: They were concerned that eventually their kingdoms, Ferdinand's Arragon and 31 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: Isabella's Castille, would come under foreign control, and they weren't 32 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: exactly happy with that. So they tried to get Wanna 33 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: to stay in Spain when Philip went back to Burgundy, 34 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: but for some reason which we can't quite surmise, she 35 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: decided to go back to him anyway, and in fact, 36 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: even through a series of tantrums in order to be 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: able to go back to him. So that's sort of 38 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: where we're picking up now. She's gone back to him, 39 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: and those tantrums that are really key part of the 40 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: story too, because they were public. They were disturbing Wanna, 41 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: you know it, first tried to reason with her mother 42 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: about returning to Philip. You know, my children are there, 43 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: it's my husband, it's my duty, um. But Isabella was 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: not interested in hearing that, you know. She wanted to 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: keep Wanna with her, raise her up to to be 46 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: an independent monarch um. So yeah, Wanna. Wanna reacted by 47 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: not eating and not sleeping and not talk walking and 48 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: standing out in the rain and all of it. Finally 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: did result, like you just said, in her being allowed 50 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: to return to her husband. But it also upset Isabella, 51 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: and it gave the public, uh the barest hint that 52 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: maybe Wanna was unstable, and this was kind of a 53 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: perfect setup for Philip. Wanna was back in Burgundy by 54 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: May fifteen o four, and if she thought her public 55 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: demonstration of loyalty to Philip was going to be met 56 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: with love or respect from him, she was dead wrong. 57 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Rumors about the couple went from bad to worse. She 58 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: physically attacked a woman that she believed Philip was sleeping with. 59 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: He as a result, had her locked up in her rooms, 60 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: and he sent away her ladies and her favorite servant. 61 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: He may have hit her, and he circulated rumors that 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: she was mad, unhinged, and unfit to rule, though anyone 63 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: who saw in public I thought that this was pretty 64 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: much entirely untrue. Seemed like a perfectly competent, respectable lady 65 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: and m According to the Women in World History Encyclopedia, 66 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: it's likely that Juanna had manic depression, and that would 67 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: partly explain the ups and downs and the entirely rational 68 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: behavior that she exhibited when she was in public or 69 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: with guests. And uh that entry actually suggested that this 70 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: never would have been reason enough to disqualify a male ruler, 71 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: but in Juanna it could be considered deabilitating madness, something 72 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: that meant Philip or perhaps Ferdinand, her father, should rule 73 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: in her stead. Just months after Juanna's return, though, this 74 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: really became an issue because until now it wasn't. Isabella 75 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: was still ruling Castile, Ferdinand was still ruling Aragon. But 76 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: in November fifteen o four, Isabella suddenly died. Isabella was 77 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: a woman who was certainly interested in looking after the 78 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: future of her kingdom then, especially this fragile unity between 79 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: her kingdom and her husband's and she was concerned with 80 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: what she had seen of Juanna's rages and concerned by 81 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: Philip's influence over her. We just mentioned that as as 82 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: a foreigner, she was afraid he wouldn't be entirely in 83 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: Spain's own best interests, since he didn't act interested at all. No, 84 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: he didn't act interested. That's a that's another good point. Um. 85 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: Isabel also accounted for the possibility that her daughter might 86 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: not be fit to rule, and try to make sure that, 87 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: however that went down, it would be Ferdinand and not 88 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: Philip who stood up in Juanna's place as regent. So 89 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: in her will, Isabella said that Wanna, her quote beloved daughter, 90 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: was her heiress, but in case quote she might not 91 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: like or might be unable to reign or govern, the 92 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: government should be somehow carried on her nominee until little 93 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: Charles came of age. Was Ferdinand, of course, who had 94 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: quote great experience of the government of the said kingdoms. 95 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: And a lot has been made of that wording, especially 96 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: the first part you read to Plina that she might 97 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: not like or might be unable to reign or govern. 98 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: And well, it's clear that Wanna was eventually betrayed by 99 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: her husband, by her father and by her son Charles. 100 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: Her mother's role in that is a little bit less clear, right. 101 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: Was Isabella opening up an official path for Wanna to 102 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: be declared insane or was she honestly concerned by Wanna's actions? 103 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: Was she just worried that Wanna was under Philip's thumb 104 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: and quote might not like to reign because it would 105 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: cause marital strife. I mean, the possibilities are kind of 106 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: endless there, they really are. But even if Juanna and 107 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: Philip did rule, Isabella had a little catch in in 108 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: her orders here that made sure Ferdinand was still in 109 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: the loops somehow. She wrote that they should obey him 110 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: quote as good and obedient children. Um. So it was 111 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: pretty important for Ferdinand to get this official nod from 112 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: his dying wife since he had no personal claim to Castile. 113 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: And we described this a more length than the last podcast, 114 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: but he was just the king of Aragon, and that 115 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: partnership between the two kingdoms than Castile was the more 116 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: powerful of the two and the larger of the two 117 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: really relied on both of them being alive. So at 118 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: first he played humble, you know, he put on a 119 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: show like he accepted this publicly acknowledged his daughter as 120 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: the new Queen of Castile renounced any claims he had there. 121 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: But there was a delay of fifteen months before Juanna 122 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: and Philip again returned to Spain, and that gave both 123 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: Ferdinand and Philip time to make their own plans against Wanna. 124 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: So Philip, for his part, proclaimed himself king, and so 125 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: did Ferdinand. He announced this at the Council of Toro, 126 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: said that his daughter was unfit to rule, so sort 127 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: of like thanks for that convenient insanity story to look 128 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: up that story. He also made a French alliance, marrying 129 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: Germaine de Foix, the niece of Louis the twelfth, and 130 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: so if they had a son, at least Aragon would 131 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: slip out of Juana's inheritance and Philip's control. But Castilian 132 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: nobles were not fans of Ferdinand at all, and this 133 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: new French marriage only made things worse, and so when 134 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: Philip and Juana arrived in April fifteen o six, they 135 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: offered up their support to Philip and Juanna, and finally Ferdinand, 136 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: who was seeing how the situation really was, finally decided 137 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: that it might be better to work with Philip than 138 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: risk war alienating him, and so in June of fifteen 139 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: o six, the two men signed a treaty. Just Juanna 140 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: was not included in this at all, unsurprisingly, and they 141 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: acknowledged that she was unfit to rule. Almost immediately though, 142 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: fernand backed out of the treaty. He said it interfered 143 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: with his daughter's rights. And it's around this point too 144 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: that Juanna, who had been using her best political tactic 145 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: of delay the entire time she was in Spain, you know, 146 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: not signing anything saying that she wanted to meet with 147 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: her father first, she wanted counsel first, most of at 148 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: this point, finally decided that Philip was not working in 149 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: her own interests and attempted an escaped from him on horseback, 150 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, she claimed she was going out for a 151 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: light horseback ride, made a dash for it, trying to 152 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: reach her father, who had by this point left Castile 153 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: for Aragon. She was quickly caught by philips soldiers. So 154 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: this gave Philip a pretty clear sign that Wanna was 155 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: a threat to him or to his claims. And he 156 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: also had the approval of the Castilian Cortes in his favor, 157 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: so he had legitimacy for his regency on behalf of her. 158 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: So he was ready to imprison her, to lock her up. 159 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about how he had done that 160 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: before back home um and he thought that his stories 161 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: he had been circulating for so long now that she 162 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: is mentally unbalanced, had enough traction that the public would 163 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: accept it, that they would accept him. But just like 164 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: the last episode where there were repeated unexpected illnesses and 165 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: sudden death, unexpected illness struck again and Philip became desperately 166 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: ill with a fever. Wanna, who was five months pregnant 167 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: at this point, nursed him for six days before he 168 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: died September in fifteen o six at only age. So 169 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: what happened next is kind of the core of the 170 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: Wuannala Loca legend. For a period of several months, wanted 171 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: just froze while the country fell into complete disorder. She 172 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: needed to make a plan to find a way to 173 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: claim her throne without arden supporters or any money. So 174 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: by December eighteenth she finally swung into action. She canceled 175 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: Phillip's appointments and concessions and trying to set up a counsel, 176 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: and in a fateful decision, she ordered Philip's body to 177 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: be removed to Granada, where her mother was buried. It 178 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: made sense from a dynastic perspective. While Philip may have 179 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: been abusive and manipulative in life, it would have made 180 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: a statement about him in death that he was this 181 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: powerful ruler from a powerful family that deserved to be 182 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: buried near Queen Isabella. So this was important for Wanna's 183 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: son's future in a way, she thought as a good 184 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: pr move almost but it turned out to be a 185 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: bad decision, especially when the elaborate funeral procession had to 186 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: stop just a few days after starting for wanted to 187 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: give birth to her daughter, Catalina. Her insistence that the 188 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: procession begin again gave her enemies the opportunity to categorize 189 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: her as this deranged widow, someone who would open the 190 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: coffin to look at her husband. But it's interesting to 191 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: add here that Julia Fox, the author of Sister Queen's 192 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: notes that there really is no mention of coffin opening 193 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: from the chronicler who was on the trip, and even 194 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: if it was opened, it was probably just so Wanna 195 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: could I d Philip. Meanwhile, though, with this maccabre procession 196 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: going on and rumors building around it. The country was 197 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: suffering from famine, and civil war seemed imminent, and fernand 198 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: came swooping back into Castile too to handle everything. He 199 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: took over Juanna's money, took over her household, took away 200 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: Prince Ferdinand that was the son who had been born 201 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: when when she and Philip first returned to Spain. Her 202 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: elder children were being raised off in Burgundy still, but 203 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: Wanna didn't and wouldn't actually relinquish her rights to her father. 204 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: She wouldn't sign the papers that renounced her claim as queen. 205 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: I think this is one of the most fascinating parts 206 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: of the story. Um her insistence on this point. I mean, 207 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: clearly being queen was important to her, regardless of anything 208 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: else that happens. That didn't matter though to Ferdinand. He 209 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: could forge the documents, and by the spring of fifteen 210 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: o nine, Juanna's father had her and baby Catalina and 211 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: Philip spot He all sent off to Tortosa Castle. The 212 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: body was put into the care of the nuns of St. Clair, 213 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: which was nearby. Wanna was twenty nine years old, and 214 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: she spent the next forty six years in Tortoise. If 215 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: it was of course important for Ferdinand during this time 216 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: to keep Juanna alive because without her, little Charles would 217 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: become king, and since he was often Burgundy being raised 218 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: by his aunt Margaret, it was likely that Ferdinand would 219 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: have to deal with plenty of interference from the boy's 220 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: paternal grandfather, Maximilian, who was the Holy Roman Emperor, a 221 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: worthy opponent to Ferdinand exactly. But aside from that, there 222 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: were a few considerations made for one at all. Tortoise 223 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: Us was a favorite old retreat of queens, but it 224 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: was extremely isolated, so Wanna had luxurious possessions like tapestries 225 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: and fine clothes, but she only had two rooms to 226 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: live in. She had a large religious library and was 227 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: sometimes allowed out to the convent, and she educated to 228 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: Catalina herself. That was really her her main purpose in life, 229 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: it seemed, educating her daughter Um because nobody else was around. Really. Ferdinand, 230 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: who only visited her twice in seven years, would pass 231 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: on information to her from time to time, but he 232 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: didn't allow her to write, and there are no records 233 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: of her having written anything again from when she goes 234 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: into Torti see Us at age nine. Um. Sometimes she 235 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: did show unhinged behavior. You know, she would refuse to 236 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: eat her sleep, she attacked her women guards. But it 237 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: was also clear by the care that was taken to 238 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: keep her out of the public eye, that she was 239 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: not insane. She was not the woman um rumors had 240 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: her being. If anyone really saw her, Ferdinand was afraid 241 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: that they would know she was being imprisoned unjustly. When 242 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: Ferdinand died in January January fifteen sixteen, having failed to 243 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: have a surviving son with his second wife, it left Wanna, 244 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: technically a queen of Castile and Aragon want a son. Charles, though, 245 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: maintained the same policy that his grandfather had, and he 246 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: quickly claimed throne for himself. And Charles wasn't popular. He 247 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: had been raised abroad, and the Castilians really resented his 248 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: immediate assumption that he would just bypass his mother and 249 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: take the throne. So Charles had an uphill battle to 250 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: gain control over Castile and Aragon. But he had a 251 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: more immediate problem as well. The people of tortoise Us 252 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: rebelled against wanna treatment. They had long heard the rumors 253 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: that want his caretaker, Mossain Ferrer, was abusing the queen, 254 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: and upon Ferdman's death, they decided to chase Ferrer out 255 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: of town. And so after this, Charles sent a cardinal 256 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: Sinairos to stop the riots and to investigate these claims. 257 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: And the cardinal was actually disturbed enough to order Ferrer 258 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: never to be let near the Queen again. And in fact, 259 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: letters from Ferrer do suggest that he was willing to 260 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: put her on the rack and stop her self harm 261 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: protests like starvation, though Fox says it's more likely that 262 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: she was beaten. I mean, still not good. No, And 263 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: this is I think probably a good point to to 264 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: mention that while a lot has been speculated about Juanna's 265 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: mental state, certainly situations like this would not have helped 266 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: it over the years. And what more than forty years 267 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: of imprisonment would eventually do to somebody, especially under circumstances 268 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: like this, where you're possibly threatened or beaten um because 269 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: of protesting and the only way you can it's not 270 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: gonna help matters. But Charles may not have wanted his 271 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: mother beaten. You know, he he removed this guy, but 272 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: he didn't exactly swoop in to save the day either, 273 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, to remove her, to to return her to 274 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: court or certainly to allow her to to rule, and 275 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: in fact, he played off Ferdinand as the bad guy. 276 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: He visited his mother in fifteen seventeen for the first 277 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: time since he was a child. I don't think they 278 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: had seen each other since she left Burgundy to go 279 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: to Spain. But he didn't tell her that Ferdinand was dead. 280 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: You know. It was just around the castle. Thought I'd 281 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: swing by for a visit, um, And in reality he 282 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: just kept her thinking Ferdinand was alive. He was the 283 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: guy behind her imprisonment, and this decision to not tell 284 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: her about Fernand kind of exposes the full duplicity of 285 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: of Charles's story. You know, he proclaimed that Juanna had 286 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: given him her blessing. He was trying to get that approval, 287 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, not looking like he was just completely bypassing, 288 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: bypassing or skipping over his mother. Um said she had 289 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: given him her blessing, But how could she have done that, 290 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: of course, if she didn't even know that Ferdinand was dead. Um. 291 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: Charles did some housekeeping too while he was there. He 292 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: replaced her temporary guard with a guard of his choice. 293 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: The Marquis of Dania and his wife, and the Danny 294 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: is really cracked down on Juanna's already pretty limited life. Yeah, 295 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: they no longer even allowed her to visit the convent, 296 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: and she protested this by not hearing mass at all. 297 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: They stopped her also from meeting any of the nobles 298 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: who tried to see her. They even stole from her. 299 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: They wrote to Charles saying, quote, the torture might help 300 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: her condition. There's no record that he approved this though. 301 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: They even tried to avoid doctors coming in in case 302 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: word got out that Wanna was saying. At one point, 303 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: Wanna even had a ten day fever and they wouldn't 304 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: let a doctor come in to help her get well. 305 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: And you know, the same goes for Catalina too, who 306 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: is growing up here. She was sick at one point 307 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: and wasn't allowed to see a doctor for quite some time. 308 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: Daniel was really obsessive to very paranoid. He was obsessed 309 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: with gossiping ladies, maids and servants, and he even wrote 310 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: to Charles at one point, quote it cannot be permitted 311 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: that she speak with anybody because she would convince anyone. 312 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: So that's that's pretty damning, I'd say. But Charles is 313 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: a bit of an enigma because of the way he's 314 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: treating his his mother, but also the close frigard he 315 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: had for a lot of other family members, and of 316 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: course the most famous of those was Catherine of Aragon, 317 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: his aunt, who was in her terrible situation with Henry 318 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: the Eighth, eventually trying to unload her to marry Anne Boleyn. 319 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: He was a staunch supporter of hers, but also with 320 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: his younger sister Catalina, who had grown up in Tortos 321 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: see Us with her mother. She was eleven years old 322 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: at the time Charles inherited, and when he tried to 323 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: remove her, he thought she should be socialized a little bit. 324 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: Want To just spiral deeper and deeper into depression. And 325 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: so Charles at least knew enough to keep his mother 326 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: alive and and to keep her happy enough by returning 327 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: Catalina to her want to. From then on tried to 328 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: keep her daughter in sight and told Dania that she'd 329 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: kill herself if they took Catalina away again. And when 330 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: the time family came for a teenage Catalina to leave, 331 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: and Mary Wanna stood at the last point that she 332 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: saw Catalina for twenty four hours. So just another note 333 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: here Catalina's complaining letters to Charles made it clear that 334 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: he knew all about how the Daniels were treating his mother, 335 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: the stealing and all of that, and he still didn't 336 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: do anything about it. Plus, if he thought that his 337 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: mother was truly insane, why would he allow his sister 338 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: to say, and I find Catalina the really fascinating part 339 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: of the story. It's like somebody should write a historical 340 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: novel about her experiences growing up in the castle and 341 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: the um, let's do it to Palina Um. It's easy, though, 342 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: to wonder why Charles didn't free his mother, especially if 343 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: he knew she was not insane, but just like his father, 344 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: like his grandfather before him. He did know that his 345 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: power relied on Juanna being alive but out of commission 346 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: um and as an unpopular foreigner, especially when eating the Inquisition, 347 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 1: one who had brought his own click with him from 348 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: Burgundy um thrown out Spanish guys. He was especially concerned 349 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: that Castilians might choose his mother over him, even if 350 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: they didn't necessarily allow her to rule in her own right. 351 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it was made clear after years of this 352 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: that Wanna could be successfully used as a figurehead while 353 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: somebody else actually did the work of the government, and 354 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: this became especially worrisome for Charles in fifteen nineteen, it 355 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: was just two years after he had arrived in Spain 356 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: when his paternal grandfather Maximilian died, And we mentioned in 357 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: the last episode that the position of Holy Roman Emperor 358 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: was not inherited, but you had to have good connections, 359 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: and Charles certainly had them. He was a likely candidate 360 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: up against guys like Henry the eighth Francis the first 361 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: of France Um. But to to increase the likelihood he 362 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: would get to become Holy Roman Emperor, it meant he 363 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: had to leave Spain in for a little bit right 364 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: at the shaky, nerve racking sort of time. And as 365 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: a side note here, Fox writes how again Wanna wasn't 366 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: told Maximilian's death, just that he had abdicated. So when 367 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: Daniel suggested she write a note of thanks to Maximilian 368 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: for the quote favor he had shown her son, Wanna 369 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: was like, maybe you should do it, because I haven't 370 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: written to him since I've been in prison this whole time. Well, 371 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: and Fox notes too that that's kind of a might 372 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: have been Daniel hoping to get even more ammunition against 373 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: the Wanna is crazy, especially when it comes to dead people. 374 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: If she's this lady who followed her husband around and 375 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: kissed his dead body's feet, maybe it wouldn't be too 376 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: surprising that she was writing letters off to her dead 377 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: father in law. But Castille did in fact take this 378 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: opportunity to rise up against Charles when he was out 379 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: of the country and a group of rebels started what 380 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: was called the Communero revolt. On August, a group of 381 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: Communero officials finally got as Dania in order to plead 382 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: before the queen. They offered her castile. They begged her 383 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: to help her people and asked her to sign her approval. 384 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: For about one hundred days. Wanna met with the rebels 385 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: and listen to their offers. She took up her favorite 386 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: political tactic again, though here she started to delay. She 387 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't sign anything until she could call a council of 388 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: her own. Finally, though miraculously almost, she chose her family again, 389 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: even all after all that had happened to her, saying, 390 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: if Charles quote all that belonged to her was his 391 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: and he would take good care of it. Super sad, 392 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's yeah, it's more unexpected than miraculous, 393 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: at least from Juanna's perspective, because as soon as the 394 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: rebellion was put down, you know, Charles didn't come in saying, oh, 395 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: it's really glad to hear what you what you said. Instead, 396 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: he rewarded her loyalty with an even stricter regime at 397 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: Tortoise if she was cut down to one room. Eventually, 398 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: of course, Elena was taken away, um, and she was 399 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: stuck with the hated Daniels too. She would complain about 400 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: them bitterly. Apparently just the sound of their voices became 401 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: agonizing for her to hear, and they were the only 402 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: ones she heard a people there. Um, And so just 403 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, we can't go into too 404 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: much more detail about that, just similar days, day in 405 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: day out, for decade after decade, forty six years. Um. 406 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: The strangest part of this story though, is that there 407 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: are these little bright spots in it. You think this 408 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: woman would be a hundred percent shunned by her family 409 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: if they were willing to do this to her, But 410 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: that wasn't the case. Her family did visit her sometime. 411 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: They would bring the kids, bring the grandkids um. They 412 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: certainly weren't considering her a deranged woman who might be 413 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: dangerous to the hopes of their kingdoms. But they also 414 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: didn't exactly let her back into the family circle. No, no, certainly, 415 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: not even as Charles position became more secure to I 416 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: think this surprised me, and this is just um, um, 417 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: it's just hard to imagine why you would keep your 418 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: family member in prison for so long, but why they 419 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: didn't let her back in as some sort of dowager 420 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: queen type role, especially if she grew older. According to Fox, Though, 421 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: there were sixteen family visits between fifteen thirty five. Yeah, 422 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: recorded visits, um. And like I said, bringing the grandkids, 423 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: bringing the kids, her grandfon Philip, stopping before he married 424 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: a cousin, and then stopping before he married another cousin 425 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: that time married Tudor. Very but I don't know, just 426 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: so part I can't really understand of this story. She 427 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: did have them on one point, though, and that was religion. 428 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: It was sort of the one thing that she could 429 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: really control. So after her confessor was dismissed in fifty three, 430 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: she just stopped making a full in fashion. And this 431 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: was something that really immensely disturbed. Charles and his son 432 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: Philip as well and her granddaughters. Everyone just couldn't handle 433 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: this for some reason. No, they were. They were deeply 434 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: concerned about Nah's soul, the state of her soul, what 435 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: would happen should she die? Um. By age seventy five, 436 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: those fears became pretty major, four of them. She was 437 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: getting very frail. She did die April eleven or twelfth, 438 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: and fifteen fifty five. Before her death, she was willing 439 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: to make a partial confession because her family was desperate 440 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: at this point trying to get her to do it, 441 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: but she held out on the full deal, kind of 442 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: feisty to the end here and once she was dead too. 443 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: This is again where the story changes. She's not somebody 444 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 1: to be hidden away anymore. She's somebody for the family 445 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: to celebrate. She was entombed in Granada with her husband Philip. 446 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: He ended up there just where she wanted him to be. Ultimately, Um, 447 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: Ferdinand and Isabella, little Prince Miguel, Um, all of them 448 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: end up where Wanna was expecting them to. So she, finally, 449 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: I guess, wasn't accepted part of the family after all 450 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: those years of being shunned. After she died. So it's 451 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: a sad ending to a story that was really entirely unexpected. 452 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: It is. I certainly went into it expecting and knowing 453 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: that there was a lot of controversy over whether she 454 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: was really Wanta a Loca Joanna the mad um and um. 455 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: You know how much the power play among her family 456 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: members had to do with her long imprisonment. But it's 457 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: one crazy thing. I mean, not to make a bad pun, 458 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: there is if you go around reading stories about Wanna 459 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 1: uh difference versus still treat her condition as insanity, you know, 460 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: like she was in prison because she was insane. Um, 461 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: rather than getting into the full story behind it. You 462 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: know how her mental state is is troubled clearly, but 463 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: certainly not to the level that her family claimed it was, 464 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: although it degraded to over time, well as it would 465 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: when you're imprisoned for that long and unable to to 466 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: talk to to leave, or to do anything that you 467 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: want to do, to even to write. But I think 468 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: in a sense it's probably almost easier just to say, well, 469 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: choose crazy, because even if you know the full story, 470 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: you can speculate forever about why the decisions, why she 471 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: made the decisions that she made and why her family 472 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: made the decisions they made too, I mean power aside 473 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,239 Speaker 1: um why some of the things that happened happened. But 474 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: certainly a fascinating story. I'm glad that we finally covered 475 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: this one. I hope all those listeners who suggested it 476 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. Uh And you know, sorry, it's not a 477 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: super Macob kiss in the Dead Body Foot episode, but 478 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: it's just not how it turned out. So to Bolina, 479 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: we have a really fascinating listener mail today. Yeah, you 480 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: were saying it comes from Facebook. Not all listener mail 481 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: comes from email. That was very true. And it's from 482 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: listener Ellen, who was writing about our episode on the 483 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,959 Speaker 1: real Tokyo Rose Eva to Guri Uh, an episode both 484 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: of us really enjoyed learning about, and one I think 485 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: is kind of stuck with us too, just as another 486 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: tragic sort of story. Um. But Ellen wrote in to 487 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: say that she knew Eva growing up. In fact, her 488 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: mother was Eva's best friend. After after the imprisonment and 489 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: all of that, remember from the episode, she moved to Chicago, 490 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: where her father ran a very successful store and lived 491 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: in Chicago, so that's where Ellen's mother um met Eva. 492 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: But it's it's a great message, and I'm just going 493 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: to read part of it. But the part that I 494 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: found really touching were Ellen's memories of Eva and how 495 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: she really kept a lot of humor in her life, 496 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: something that was incredibly surprising to us considering all she 497 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: had been through. But just to read a little bit 498 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: of that she wrote, Eva was a little fireball into 499 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: her old age. She was full of energy and humor, 500 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: very quick to make you laugh and share hilarious stories. 501 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: She had that voice that was so amazing that I 502 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: can still hear it today. Listening to the old radio 503 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: broadcast on the podcast brought back many happy memories. Eva 504 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: never let her hard life show on her face or 505 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: in her personality. No one really knew who she was 506 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: when they came into the store and was checking out 507 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: their stuff the register. She liked to remain anonymous to 508 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: the outside world because she always considered herself an American 509 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: and was deeply proud of that. She didn't want to 510 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: stir up attention to her past for herself and for 511 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: her father's business. So this was a really touching email, 512 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: and and she she went on to say too that um, 513 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: she didn't really realize who she was or how famous 514 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: she was. Ellen didn't rather until she was older. UM, 515 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: just because Eva always focused on on others. Really, but 516 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: that's kind of an example of some of the cool 517 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: personal connections we sometimes fear about between listeners and the podcast. 518 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: That is pretty amazing. Thank you for sharing and that story, 519 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: Like you said, I think it it really touched both 520 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: of us a lot. And the quote that we mentioned 521 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: about the tiger changing its stripes. When when we were 522 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: reading that quote, I was reading that quote during the episode, 523 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: I got really choked up. And the funny thing is 524 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: I got choked up when I read it the first time, 525 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: and when I read it again, and when I read 526 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: it on the podcast, and then later I was repeating 527 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: it to my husband and I was retelling the story, 528 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: and I got choked up then too. It's just something 529 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: about it. It's just and and this is the story 530 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: I've offen. I retold it to my fiance, I retold 531 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: it to a woman we work with. UM not something 532 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: I usually. I'm not sure if listeners imagine we're just 533 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: always telling these podcasts to our friends. I try to 534 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: avoid that. I usually think, you know, if people want 535 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: to hear it, they can listen. UM. But yeah, I 536 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: just felt like I had to tell other people this story, 537 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: and um I was happy to to hear that Eva's 538 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: later life did seem fulfilling to that certainly added something 539 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: to my understanding of the subject. So thank you so 540 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: much Ellen for writing in too to share such a 541 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: touching story. If you guys want to share any personal 542 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: connections to subjects, I don't know how many folks are 543 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: going to have Wanna li loca connections unless you're European 544 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: royalty than or probably the right to us definitely, or 545 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: just suggestions, you know, the drill, whatever, whatever you guys, 546 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: I want to say. We are at History Podcast at 547 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com. We're also on Twitter at missed in History, 548 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: and we're on Facebook, and again we mentioned it a 549 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: few times during the podcast, but Julia Fox's book on 550 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: Wanna is really interesting. It's actually a dual biography called 551 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: Sister Queens, covering Juanna's life and her sister Catherine of Aragon, who, 552 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: as people always say, would make another fabulous subject. So true. 553 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: And if you want to learn a little bit more 554 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: about Captain of Aragon's famous husband, Henry the Eighth, we 555 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: have an article about that. It's ten heads that roll 556 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: roll during Henry the Eighth's reign, and you can look 557 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: up that one by visiting our homepage at www dot 558 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: how staff works dot com for more on this and 559 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how staff works dot 560 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: com