1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: From the studio who brought you the number one podcast, 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: The Pikedon Massacre. This is Death Island, just a few 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: miles off the Thailand coast. The island of Kotau looks 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: like a postcard. It's almost like if you were going 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: to imagine a paradise island, they'll draw a picture of one. 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: That's what Kata looks like. Young tourists from all over 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: the world visit the pristine beaches and crystal clear water, 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: but underneath the surface lies something sinister. In the last 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: two decades, dozens of tourists have died mysteriously on the island. 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: A dark cloud has come over the island and cast 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: its shadow death, mystery, and danger. I'm journalist Connor Powell. 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: Even while making this podcast, another death on the island 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: just happened. One thing is certain in this beautiful place, 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: no coast is clear. This is Death Island. That's like 15 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: murdering someone in fine sweat and saying there's no witnesses. 16 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: A production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. On April seventh, seventeen, 17 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: a woman's body was found hanging from a tree island. 18 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: Locals became suspicious that something was wrong when a monitor 19 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: lizard kept going back and forth in the jungle. Following 20 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: the animal, they discovered a woman's body tied up with 21 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: shirts and nylon rope used for boats. The woman's body 22 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: was half suspended, her lower extremities on the ground. By 23 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: the time the victim was found, her remains were decomposing, 24 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: half eaten by lizards. There was a small empty gas 25 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: tank found beside her on the ground. Using dental records, 26 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: authorities identified the body as thirty year old Belgian national 27 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: Elise del Magna. Thai police quickly ruled the death a suicide, 28 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: but Elisa's mother questioned the explanation given by local authorities 29 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: and the death of her daughter. Welcome to Death Island, 30 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. Episode one, The 31 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: Case of Elise del Magna. I'm Connor Powell, an investigative 32 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: journalist at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew 33 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: ar Now and Jeff Shane. We've been working on this 34 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: story for years now, and the question still remains, how 35 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: is it possible? Dozens of people have died in so 36 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: many different horrific and unexplained ways, and nobody wants to 37 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: seem to get to the bottom of what's happening there, 38 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: not even the family members of the victims. They don't 39 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: even have answers. Yeah, and why are all of these 40 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: cases allegedly being underinvestigated by TIE authorities As of this recording. 41 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: There was yet another mysterious death this week, this time 42 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: a completely healthy Scooba instructor. What's so scary about this 43 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: place is that it looks so beautiful and perfect. If 44 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: you've ever seen the movie At the Beach with Leonardo DiCaprio, 45 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: it kind of looks like that, and it attracts young 46 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: people who want to backpack and go on adventure despite 47 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: the fact that it's incredibly dangerous. What we didn't know 48 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: until we started working on this story is that there 49 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who are trying to keep 50 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: anybody from talking about what's happening on kotoul. This island 51 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: has a nickname of death Island for a reason. It 52 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: makes it dangerous to talk to people. It makes it 53 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: dangerous to even do this podcast. But why is there 54 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: a cult, a serial killer or a cover up. One 55 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: of the people that I was able to talk to 56 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: was a friend of Elisa's, and she didn't want to 57 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: be recorded. She's very hesitant, but you know, she told 58 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: me that anything that helps bring some light to the 59 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: mystery of how Elise died on Kotoo, you know, she 60 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: would be willing to help. And so we exchanged a 61 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: lot of messages over the course of several weeks. But 62 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: her friend described Elise as somebody who was a free spirit, 63 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: somebody who was just really kind, really happy. She said 64 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: she had a lot of friends, she loved to travel, 65 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: she loved life. Elisa Magna was born and raised in Belgium. 66 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: In looking at her photos, you can see she's incredibly fit, 67 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: athletic and has gorgeous brown hair and a large smile. 68 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: She described Elise as somebody who was really interested in 69 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: spiritualism and meditation, and it started out as sort of 70 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: an interest, but it grew over time. And then Elisa's 71 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: friend told me she went to Thailand first to do 72 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,559 Speaker 1: an internship in yoga, and then she decided she wanted 73 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: to go back to Thailand lived there, and she had 74 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: always wanted to live abroad, and it was it was 75 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: sort of the spiritual connection that really drew a lease 76 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: to Thailand. She went to meet a group of people 77 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: that you know, I think we would describe I think 78 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: most people would describe it as sort of a cult. 79 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: And it started with a communication when Elise was in Belgium, 80 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: and then she went there and she joined this group. 81 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: We got a hold of an ex boyfriend of Elise's 82 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: who traveled with her to Thailand. For his safety and privacy, 83 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: we will not reveal his name. That's one thing I 84 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: didn't expect when we started this project was just how 85 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: unwilling a lot of people connected to Kotao would be 86 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: with regards to talking. So we've reached out to a 87 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: lot of people connected to Kotaw, family members who've lost 88 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: loved ones, friends who've lost loved ones, and just people 89 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: who've lived on the island over the course of the 90 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: last twenty years. And what we keep coming up across 91 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: is really an unwillingness to talk. A whole bunch of 92 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: people who lived on the island are scared to talk. 93 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: They're scared of the time mafia, they're scared of Thai officials, 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: and the other thing that really surprises me is they're 95 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: scared of being harassed online. And this is something that 96 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: we keep coming across when I've spoken to people or 97 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: spoken to friends of friends is there has been an 98 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: online attack of anyone who talks negatively about Kotel for 99 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: years now. People speaking anonymously will be common in this 100 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: podcast because frankly, it's dangerous to talk. Can you just 101 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about who she was as 102 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: a person and how you knew her? I met the 103 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: Lise on a Duner festival and she was a very 104 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: remarkable person. Elise was a dancer and she loved to move. 105 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: She had a very light kind the way she walked 106 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: and talked like she would have wings. I used to 107 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: call her an angel. Can you talk a little bit 108 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: about what drew her to a place like Thailand and 109 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: personally she graduated a school of buyernergetics, and she was 110 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: working as a healer or professional healer and therapist, and 111 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: she was given session to people from all around the world. 112 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: And Thailand was the place where a lot of virtual 113 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: people used to meet, and this was like a hub 114 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: for for country community and for yoga schools. We went 115 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: there to get her on an island Kopangang and stayed 116 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: there for some months. While in Kopenyang, Alice joined a 117 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: tantra community called Sacred This group is an offshoot of 118 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: the saiab abaccult and was led by self described guru Ramanandreis. 119 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: For a little more than a year, Alice studied with 120 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: ramenandres on the island of Kopenyang, about a two hour 121 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: ferry ride from Katao. At some point in twenty seventeen, 122 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: Alice decides to leave Copenyang and flee Sacred. Here's Andrew 123 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: and Connor and you're referring to Sacred, which is kind 124 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: of splinter sect of a Sai Baba religion or cult 125 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: if you will, Yeah, exactly, this group that was not 126 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: on Kotal but was on another island in the sort 127 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: of Gulf of Thailand area, and that's where Alise spent 128 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: a long period of time. She apparently got very into 129 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: this group. And over a period of time, Alise just 130 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: stopped communicating with people, with her friends back in Belgium, 131 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: She closed her Facebook account, She just sort of cut 132 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: herself off from everybody, from her friends. But it's definitely 133 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: a cause for concern anytime somebody leaves their home, goes 134 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: to another country and then cuts off communication. Then over time, 135 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: Alise came to the realization that she needed to get 136 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: out of this group, out of this cult, and that's 137 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: when she flees. That began a sequence of horrible and 138 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: unfortunate events, ultimately leading to her demise and some really 139 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: puzzling questions here, Stephanie. What's particularly odd about her story 140 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: is that Elise was actually set to leave Katao. In fact, 141 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: she already sent her bags back to the mainland and 142 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: was slated to return home. However, sadly she'd never made 143 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: it there and you know, as we know, her lifeless 144 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: body was found on April twenty seventeen, hanging in the jungle, 145 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: half eaten by lizards. That is an unspeakable crime that 146 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: somebody committed. Police determined it was a suicide, but Elisa's 147 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: parents had serious doubts from the beginning. Alice showed no 148 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: signs of depression, there was no note left, and why 149 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: would Elise send her bags home if she planned on 150 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: taking her own life. Elisa's mother had questions about her 151 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: daughter's death and got in touch with Sam Gruber, a 152 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: German journalist who now lives on Kofaniang. Sam speaking to 153 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: us that remote island in Thailand, which is why you'll 154 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: hear jungle noises in the background. He has been helping 155 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: Elsa's mother search for answers. I don't like the term 156 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: death island because it throws everybody in the same bucket. 157 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: I say, the majority in Coulde how they do decent business. 158 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: It's one of the most beautiful remote islands in the world. 159 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: But we cannot deny that CVA cases. We had murders, rapes, 160 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: people disappeared for good and in such numbers that there 161 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: must be some suspicion and it must be allowed to 162 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: ask questions. And this is how I see there's something wrong. 163 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: Sam has uncovered more details about the circumstances surrounding Elisa's death. 164 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: She is a very tragic case because she was extraordinary, 165 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: beautiful woman, very smart, from a great background in Belgion, 166 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: and she moved to Kopangan, which is the neighboring the 167 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: bigger island, and then she came into this yoga spirit 168 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: to see was she in communication with her mom? Was 169 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: she the tail of person that didn't talk to her 170 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: mom her family for weeks? Her mother said there was 171 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: regular communication, maybe sometimes not for weeks, because when you 172 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: live here in Thailand, it's it's a different word. Especially 173 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:19,239 Speaker 1: Kan there are cultural communities and they stay among themselves. 174 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: It's like a hippie post hippie bird. And when she 175 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: finally decided to go back to her parents and turned 176 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: it back to Thailand, then she booked the boat. And 177 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: there is a boat from Kopangan which stops over in 178 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: Kotau and from there it continues to the mainland chump On, 179 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: which is further up in the north. You enter the 180 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: bus and you in Bankok within six hours. So that's 181 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: the normal regular travel route for backpackers. And we have 182 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: no idea but on this day she left the boat 183 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: in Kotau, but her luckage stayed on the boat. Here's 184 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: Stephanie at least did make it to her hotel in 185 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: Syre Beach. And this is known because there's CCTV or 186 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: survey As cameras that are there for security purposes that 187 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: captured her. Just to give some contacts about Syree Beach. 188 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: It's a major attraction and what really lures people there. 189 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: It's basically the stretch of uninterrupted beach on the island's 190 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: west coast that is littered with hotels and restaurants and 191 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: bars and clubs and dive shops. We've been told people 192 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: are always barefoot and kind of in party mode. And 193 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: the Syree Beach area is also the location where nearly 194 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: every suspicious death has happened on Katao in the last decade. 195 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: And despite the police from their families who have lost 196 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: loved ones on this island and the growing number of 197 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: suspicious fatalities, Katao still remains a very very popular destination. 198 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: We do know that she rented a hotel room somewhere 199 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: between Maya and Syree Beach, and that she stayed there 200 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: for one night, and somehow in that same night that 201 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: bungalow down and there were witnesses people saw her running 202 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: away from her hut and that was it. While helping 203 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: Elise's mother, Sam Cooper, is able to get receipts. These 204 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: receipts were able to sort of piece together a picture 205 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: of what happened after Elise fled the hut and was 206 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: seen on camera at her first hotel again, Elise checked 207 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: in to another hotel and she used this really strange 208 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: fake name, Elise Dua. What we found out is then 209 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: she moved to the other side, to Canopay, and she 210 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: booked in a hotel there. Three days before she disappeared 211 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: for good. She booked a flight home and I have 212 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: the ticket, I have everything. I like to find out 213 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: what happened. Why did she book? And she paid by 214 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: credit card with Kata Air and the ticket was confirmed 215 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: and the next day she disappeared. We have to see 216 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: that this young lady, she was scared. Obviously, she was 217 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: fleeing Copangan by what reason ever, and she was all 218 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: on herself. But she communicated with her family, she booked 219 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: the ticket and then something must have happened. You have 220 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: no idea why she left the boat in Quotau. There 221 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: are a lot of questions surrounding Elisa's final days. Why 222 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: did Eliza get off the boat on Kotau when she 223 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: could have made it to the mainland and then home. 224 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: Why did she use the fake name? Was she fleeing 225 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: or trying to throw someone off her trail? And what 226 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: caused the first bungalow that she stayed in to burn down? 227 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: Is there any evidence in investigation into what caused the fire? 228 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: I never saw a report. Did really said okay the 229 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: fire was caused by this and that I'm curious that 230 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: Elisa's mum did anything that was a valuable, worthwhile report 231 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: from the police. As far as I recall she waited 232 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: for a police reporter forensic report for months. When I 233 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: talked to her, she was always upset because she had 234 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: no information and she didn't have much hit by the 235 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: Patian embassy in Bangkok either, she felt lost and alone. 236 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: Could a Maverick umber of Sacred have come after a 237 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: lease or did the trauma of separating from the cult 238 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: make her suicidal as the type police have suggested. Forensic 239 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: expert Joseph Scott Morgan explores the theory that it was 240 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: a suicide at Lease was found. I believe hanging wrapped 241 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: in T shirts next to an empty gas can. How 242 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: common is it when forensic investigators discover bodies for them 243 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: to be covered if they're ruled a suicide. Well, it 244 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: all depends on who the individuals were that discovered her, 245 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: and it all depends on where the covering is. Okay, 246 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: So let's just take what we refer to as face covering, 247 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: which is a manifestation that you see in homicides and 248 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: also to a certain degree in suicides too, and generally 249 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: that indicates a level of intimacy. You see it in 250 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: families many times, or in the sense of a homicide 251 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: that involves an intimate, okay, because the psychology that's behind 252 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: all this is kind of fascinating. If they do face covering, 253 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: even after they're dead, the perpetrators staring at the body, 254 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: they have the appearance the dead will have the appearance 255 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: that they're staring back at them. Makes people very uncomfortable, 256 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: so they cover the face. Then you have a group 257 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: of people that will cover bodies in order to conceal bodies. 258 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: That's completely different, different kind of worms at that point, 259 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: because you're you're dealing with somebody that if they're trying 260 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: to conceal a death. First off, as an old death investigator, 261 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, the first thing I'm thinking is that they're perpetrator. 262 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: They've brought about the death, and so that's one of 263 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: the things that you would begin to think about when 264 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: you're looking and trying to profile the individual. You know, why, 265 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: why in the world would you would you have clothing 266 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: covering a body. I've read a couple of things relative 267 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: to at least where some had said that she was 268 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: suspended from a tree. Some have said she was laying down, 269 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: and some said that there was a partial suspension. Now 270 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: there there are deaths involving partial suspensions. I've worked many 271 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: of them over the course of my career. I think, 272 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: you know, people always think that in order to hang 273 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: oneself you have to be completely suspended in the air, 274 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, you're just kind of hanging there like an 275 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: ornament on a tree. That's not the case. If people 276 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: have the will, they will actually, you know, place a 277 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: ligature around their neck, tied off and then essentially sit 278 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: down and asphyxiate themselves that way. It's not a traditional 279 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: hanging like many people think. So that's within the investigative 280 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: around the possibility. Let's stop here for a break. We'll 281 00:17:46,600 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. Forensic expert Joseph got Morgan 282 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: has a lot of questions regarding the investigation that the 283 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: Thai police carried out. I think the question I would 284 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: ask is, on that same day, how many other bungalows 285 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: burned down on this island. Why was it that Elise's bungalow, 286 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: the ones she had been assigned to, burned down. I'd 287 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: want to know the origin of the fire, the causality, 288 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: why it takes so long to discover her body. You know, 289 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: by the time they find her body, you've got animal activity, 290 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, you've got monitor lizards, that are out there, 291 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: they're looking, they're looking for things to ingest, and so 292 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: that's that's the course of nature. That's that's what happens. 293 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: And here she is laying on the floor of this jungle. 294 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's bizarre. The half eaten body was 295 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: decomposing and attached to a tree by a blue nylon rope. 296 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: Elise was covered up by several t shirts and curiously, 297 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: resting just a few feet away was a small can 298 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: of gasoline. Tai police immediately ruled out foul play and 299 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: claimed a lead had stolen the gas canister and rope, 300 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: and declared her death is suicide. Here again, Sam Gruber, 301 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: do you really get a nylon rope, steve gasoline, walk 302 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: up there and hang your safe up there, and you 303 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: book just a ticket flight home one or two days before. 304 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me. Sam has some reservations 305 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: about how Thai police handled the investigation. What disturbed me 306 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: was in the first place that there was no notice 307 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: of her findings. So normally, when you know Kutao already 308 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: has a reputation, why don't you come straightforward with information 309 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: and you build up some credibility. You say, today the 310 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: police found this and this and give her body of 311 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: forensic examination. Everything would have been fine. Sam and Lisa's 312 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: mother put pressure on Hi police by continuing to ask 313 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: questions even after they ruled her death of suicide. Soon 314 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: local and western media began to notice. At that point, 315 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: Hi police reopened the investigation into Elsa's death in June 316 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen, three months after her body was found. 317 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: It was actually me coming back and rolling the first stone, 318 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: and then the whole thing blew up, and weeks later 319 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: suddenly the biggest police came in an helicopter and started 320 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: to investigate a case which was actually that the spot 321 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: of the findings the crimes in There was nothing more 322 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: to be found, so we have to rely on people 323 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: who lied about the finding the circumstances and didn't come 324 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: up with a forensic report in the beginning, so we 325 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: have to rely on their expertise. Weeks later. It doesn't 326 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: make me feel good, does it? Again? No suicide note 327 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: was ever found. Do you think she committed suicide? As 328 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: the Thai officials have said, I see, dearly, dearly thought it. 329 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: You have a nylon rope, you have a container of gasoline, 330 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: you have a fire in a previous hotel room, a bungalow, 331 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: and you have her leaving the barry without her own luggage. 332 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: So you have four things that could possibly be investigated 333 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: and used as some stepping stone to trying to find 334 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: out at least part of the story. Yes, and yet 335 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: you pointed out police didn't seem to investigate any of 336 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: these and like, there's a lot of cases where there's 337 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: no evidence, there's no information, and yet here you have four, 338 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: I think pieces of evidence that would be a possibility 339 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: to lead to a clue to some inside as to 340 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: what had happened. Police don't even touch these things, do they. 341 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: We never heard anything by the police. The parents found 342 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: a luggage, not the police. When the parents came in, 343 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: they investigated, they found the luggage. It was still in 344 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: the storage in Tromponi Ty. Police justified their decision to 345 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: rule the cause of death as suicide by pointing to 346 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: Elisa's troubled past. It was always the suicide version because 347 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: it was the most for them, the most comfy, comfy explanation. 348 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: So they always come up with some arguments bringing the 349 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: victims into a paid light, and they never come up 350 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: with the re effects. This is what story pieces meals. 351 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: We decided to look deeper into Alisa's involvement with Sacred, 352 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: the yoga community slash cult she'd been involved with before 353 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: her death. Here again Connor speaking with the Lisa's friend 354 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: who wishes to remain anonymous, and when she joins the 355 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: Sacred group of Saia Baba, would you know if she 356 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 1: was attracted to the Saia Baba or to Raman Andres 357 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: Did you have any sense of what sort of came first? 358 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: First was Saia Baba because she used to talk about 359 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: this spiritual guru and she had some good thoughts about him, 360 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: and that was one of her favorite teachers. And then 361 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: she became connected to the Sacred Cop and Yang group. Right. Yes, 362 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: Sai Baba as a movement would be considered a new 363 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: religious movement in academic terms, because it's relatively new twentieth 364 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: century phenomena. We reached out to called expert Joseph Simhart 365 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: to have him tell us more about this community. He's 366 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: been researching cults and helping people exit them for more 367 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: than forty years. The person himself, Sai Baba or Sicha 368 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: Sai Baba as they call him, was a magician when 369 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: he was young who learned how to convince people he 370 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: was doing miracles. He's quite narcissistic, So he took on 371 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: this name Sai Baba as a reincarnation of a true 372 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: holy man called Sherty Sai Baba and India, who was 373 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: well respected. So Sai Baba claimed to be carrying on 374 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: that energy or whatever as an avatar, and being Sai 375 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: Baba came to view himself and sell himself off as 376 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: the Avatar of the age. In other words, he was 377 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: Christ for Christians, the Imam Mahdi for Muslims, the tenth 378 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: Avatar for Hindus, all roll up into one guy, you know, 379 00:23:53,960 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: with a bushy haircut. And he gathered a large following, 380 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: very popular in India, millions of followers. The Sciath Sai 381 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: Baba organization reported in twenty and ten that there was 382 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: an estimated twelve hundred centers in twenty six countries around 383 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: the world. Sai Baba supposedly transferred this Guru avatar energy 384 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: and franchise rights to Roman Andreas Ramanan Joyce's group promoted 385 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: itself as the local Sia Sai Baba sect, and in 386 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: twenty and sixteen, Elise was deeply involved with Sacred and 387 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: growing close to Andreas Connor asked Elise's friend what he 388 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: thought of Sacred You had some reservations about the way 389 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: that group operated or way the leader operated. Right, Well, Yes, 390 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: I connected with the leader of the group, and he 391 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: explained to me how do they operate, and introduced me 392 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: to his tribe. But when as soon as I started 393 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: asking questions, he became very nervous and he didn't want 394 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: to me to expose him in any way in front 395 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 1: of his disciples, so he very soon asked me to leave. 396 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: Later on, I heard that he's been using some hypnosism 397 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: people just to get them to do what he wants, 398 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: and I could see how some people were blindly believing 399 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: in him. Two other people told me that his group 400 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: was while it included men, it was almost overwhelmingly young 401 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: women sort of searching for stuff a fair characterization. Yes, 402 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: there were women at his place where and I was 403 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: visiting him, and he told me that he likes to 404 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: have those girls, and he was bragging about it a lot. 405 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: Did you think it was a healthy environment for somebody? Well, 406 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: I could feel that there was something fishy around that, 407 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: because I've seen different spiritual teachers there and around the world, 408 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: and you can feel if someone is genuine and do 409 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: it from his heart. Then this guy was more like 410 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: a narcissist. He was mostly boosed on himself and really 411 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: wanted others to admire him, and I could feel that 412 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: his intention wasn't quite pure. Did you ever say anything 413 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: to at least or express your concerns about Ramen Andreis. 414 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: We didn't have much time to talk about it, but 415 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: I would probably have to warn her more about this guy, 416 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: which I didn't, and I regret that obviously she failed 417 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: for him. They were in love. I don't know both sides, 418 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: but she definitely was, and she was living there and 419 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: they had some sea trouble in obviously because ran away, 420 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: but she was deep in deserted the Thaie government and 421 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: the months before she was killed they sort of said 422 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: that she was having mental problems to try to kill herself. 423 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: Do you think she's the type of person who would 424 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: try to kill herself. Absolutely not. I don't believe that 425 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: she wasn't suicidal at all, and she never had these 426 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: temptations or I never could see anything depressive so that 427 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: she would be capable of doing that. But when I 428 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: heard the news that she probably killed herself. That was 429 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: like a nonsense. I couldn't believe that because it didn't 430 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: make any sense. Knowing at least, I never believe that 431 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: she would be a suicidal that's for sure. Yeah, I 432 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: mean that's what another friend told me as well. Absolutely, 433 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: let's stop here for another break. It seems the more 434 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: we dig into a Lease's story, the more questions we 435 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: had about what the Tie police did or didn't do 436 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: during the investigation. Everything about Elise's death screams, you know, 437 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: red light, something's not right here, something's really wrong. Both 438 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: fleeing a cult on another island, why she stopped off 439 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: in Katao, why she was in one bungalow that burned 440 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: down and then checked into another hotel bungalow under a 441 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: fake name, and then how did she end up in 442 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: the sort of hills and mountains the non touristy part 443 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: of Katao. And what is a canister of gasoline doing there? 444 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: Why is there blued islon rope there? And how does 445 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: she die? There's a lot of questions surrounding why Elise 446 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: left sacred There's no doubt so much in there. It's 447 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: like brainwashing. I went into the guy's history, it is 448 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: urun and uh, I don't think he's a nice guy. 449 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: He fled, he escaped because never ever anybody heard of 450 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: him again. So the whole story is very mysterious, and 451 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: the police never investigated. The parents of Alice thought he 452 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: might have been involved somehow, and I don't know where 453 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: that somebody follows her to cook out points down a. 454 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: Is there any feeling or suspicion based on the people 455 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: you talked to understanding the dynamics that somebody from the 456 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: cult that she was a part of and it was 457 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: spending time with it, they had any role in her death. 458 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: They could have at least checked the footage is from 459 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: there from the videos and see whether this guy was 460 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: following her, but it was all too late. Tie police 461 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: they can work very very well. I've seen cases they 462 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: solved in an extreme professional manner, but in this case 463 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: I think it was another body oops and they wanted 464 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: to keep it low. They wanted to keep a low 465 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: level and it didn't work out the game. It alayspac 466 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: fires because of the way the Tie police conducted the investigation, 467 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: the window to obtain evidence of foul play appears to 468 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: have closed. If police wasn't suicidal and she was laying 469 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: the cult. Could someone from Sacred have played a part 470 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: in her death. Here's Andrew speaking with cult expert Joseph Simhart. 471 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: Given that this is right after she left Sacred, one 472 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: would assume she's trying not to be found from them. 473 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: How common is it when people are leaving groups like 474 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: this that they need to actually run away and hide 475 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: and how common is it for people that leave groups 476 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: like this to end up dead? Yeah, no, it's not common. 477 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: It might be more common in some types of groups 478 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: to want to hide for quite a while. When some 479 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: groups will go after you, it's kind of like, you know, 480 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: turning your back on the mafia. And if you become 481 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: a snitch or say anything, you're walking dead. You know 482 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: they will come after you and hurt you someway. So 483 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: that's true of a lot of cults. So the majority 484 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: of these New Age groups or Bible cults or whatever 485 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: aren't going to necessarily attack you in any really harsh way. 486 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: That really depends on the group, and it depends what 487 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: kind of secrets you know about the group. If, for instance, 488 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: this young woman as if she knew some secrets about 489 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: this guru, and she said, listen, I'm tired of your bullshit. 490 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell people, Well, there might have been something 491 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: that he didn't want leaked out, and something could have happened, 492 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, that would be one way to look for 493 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: a motive. Could at least have known a secret about 494 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: raman Andreis or of Sacred that the Guru didn't want 495 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: getting out to the public. Here again, Connor and Andrew, 496 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: Does sai baba have a history this sect or enlarge 497 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: historically across the entire cult? Do they have a history 498 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: of violence against people who leave? It's not known as 499 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: a sai baba called trade to go after X members. 500 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: A leader might not say attack, attack that man. The 501 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: devotees might be so fanatic that they don't want their 502 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: leader to be hurt. So you can have a maverick 503 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: person just on their own go after you for criticizing 504 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: the guru. So that's always a danger. Over recent years, 505 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: a dark cloud has come over the island and cast 506 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: its shadow, which is sadly one of death. And actually 507 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: I think danger really for youngsters. And if I was 508 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: in my twenties now and a backpacker and thinking about 509 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: going to Thailand, I may think twice about going to 510 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: Katau simply because of its recent history. Here again Connor, 511 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: Andrew and Stephanie. So, I guess the thing that's so 512 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: troubling about Elisa's death is just there really isn't sort 513 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: of a scenario you can paint that says, Okay, this 514 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: is logically how she ended up dying. It's clear, I 515 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: think if you look at the evidence that she didn't 516 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: commit suicide. So how did she end up being dead? 517 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: Was she killed by somebody? Was that somebody connected to 518 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: the cult. Was that somebody connected to the island. If 519 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: you paint the scenario that she was fleeing the coult 520 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: and that somebody from the cult essentially tractor allowed her, 521 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: and that that was the person who killed her on 522 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: the island, the problem with that scenario is that that 523 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: takes some local knowledge, right, like to be able to 524 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: dump the body up in the mountains, the hills, the 525 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: sort of off the beat and track of Kotao. That 526 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: doesn't strike you as somebody who's coming from another island 527 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: who may or may not know Kotao. Because a lot 528 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: of the stuff that was used in her death, if 529 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: we believe it wasn't a suicide, you know, it does 530 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: seem to come from the local community there. Yeah, for 531 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: the most part. But then on the other hand, you know, 532 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: she was found in the jungle not too far from 533 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: where her hotel was. It wasn't necessarily some secret spot. Additionally, 534 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: you get everywhere by boat in Katao. You can't get 535 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: there any other way, So that means that there's going 536 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: to be lots of ropes laying around from boats, and 537 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: lots of gas cans for all the boats that need gas. 538 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: So I don't know. Actually, now it seems to me 539 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: maybe you don't necessarily need to have that intimate of 540 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: a knowledge of Katao to pull this off, because they're 541 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: things that aren't necessarily impossible to find, right, It's not 542 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: like you need to know a rope guy to get 543 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: a blue nylon rope. Yeah, that's a fair point. There 544 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: is the possibility that the person who killed her just 545 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: grabbed those local materials that said, like, there was a 546 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: bunch of T shirts. Where did the T shirts come from? 547 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: That doesn't appear to have been hers, So did that 548 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: person who came from another island bring those T shirts? 549 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: They grab them from somewhere else. Also, you could look 550 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 1: at it from a different angle, which says it had 551 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: to have been somebody local, and then that raises the 552 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: question of well, why would somebody from Kotao kill Alise. 553 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: The thing that keeps me scratching my head though every 554 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: time I think about this is what's the motive. The 555 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: only people to me that seemed like they have a 556 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: motive would be people trying to prevent her from getting away. Yeah, 557 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: and it's hard to look at Alisa's death and not 558 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: keep coming back to the connection to this cult on 559 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: Copenyang and Ramenandres because there's just so little information about him, 560 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, from a distance, but he just looks like 561 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: a dodgy figure. You hear the word Culton, immediately I 562 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: know my mind goes to the worst. And so my 563 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: mind keeps coming back with Elisa's death to what role 564 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: did Roman Andre's playing this. We know that the cult 565 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: leader fled Thailand very shortly after Elisa's death, and once 566 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: police started asking questions, he claims no interaction or reasonfully 567 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: convenient time for a visa run. Yeah exactly. I mean 568 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: that was sort of Roman Andreasa's excuses that he had 569 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: to go do a visa. He just happened to leave 570 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: the country for a couple of years. It looks like 571 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: somebody who felt some heat decided to get out of 572 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: town and then returned to Thailand once the heat had 573 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: died down. Yeah, I agree, it looks awfully suspicious, and 574 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: we've tried a few times reaching out to him the email, yeah, 575 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: to hear anything back. But I think the point that 576 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: we've heard from others, and it needs to be stressed, 577 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: is that there isn't really any evidence that this cult 578 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: on Cope and Yang with Rama Andres has a history 579 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: of violence that would lead you to think like, yeah, 580 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: of course they could kill Elise while she's fleeing them. 581 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: There are other people who have left the cult, and 582 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: there doesn't appear to have been any deaths connected. It 583 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: still leads with too many unanswered questions. After hearing everything 584 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: about Elise's death, her personality forensic, I still feel like 585 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: we don't have any real concrete answers. I hope as 586 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: we go through this process looking at all these deaths 587 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: in these cases on Kotao, I hope that somewhere we 588 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: are able to answer some questions. The families and the 589 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: loved ones, the friends of these people who have died 590 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: on Kotao, they deserve it. But I can tell you 591 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: looking at the data, looking all the research, talking to people. 592 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: Every time we get a little bit of information on Hotel, 593 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: more questions seemed to spring up. What do we not 594 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: know about her that is important to her story? Not 595 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: her death, forget about her death for a second, but like, 596 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: what do we not know about her that's important to 597 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: who she was as a person, to her story as 598 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: the person on the planet. There was something very fascinating 599 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: about this human being because I was in a very 600 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: deep depression and I was asking for help, for angels 601 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: or for some guidance to help me from this whole 602 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: that I was in. And on the first night we 603 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: met each other and we stayed together ever since for 604 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: months ahead, and she healed me in a way that 605 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: I could get out of my depression. And my life 606 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: changed completely after meeting her. So I somehow I can 607 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: save and she saved my life because I was on 608 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: the edge of a suicide when she came into my 609 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: life and completely changed that. And this was like a 610 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: miracle for me that someone was trusting her inner voice 611 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: and went to another country to meet someone for the 612 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: first time, and this was like a life changer for you. 613 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: Do you think you were unique in your experience with 614 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 1: at Last or do you think there are other people 615 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: who had these sort of life changing moments. Definitely there 616 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: are others as well, because that was her mission. She 617 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: was constantly traveling the world and helping people. It's absolutely 618 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: horrific the number of people who died going to Katao, 619 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: and you know, in lots of instances, the circumces in 620 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: which they've died is just not in any way satisfactory 621 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: to the family. He's finding out what truly happened, whether 622 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: it's somebody jumping off the roof of a building into 623 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: a swimming pool and then dying as a result, or 624 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: somebody dying while scuba die or somebody dying with their 625 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: hands tied behind their back but they're supposed to have 626 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: hanged themselves. You know, all of those deaths are absolutely 627 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: tragic and it must be awful as so much, so 628 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: much with this investigation. There's a lot of heat, but 629 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: not a lot of light. I know from speak of 630 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: the families myself, it's just not good enough not to 631 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 1: know what happened, and you just want to know the truth, 632 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: and the questions won't at a stop unless you've got 633 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: confidence in the authorities to get to the bottom of it. 634 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: I will just continue to dig away and get more 635 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: and more, and hopefully I can at least find the truth. 636 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: And we think we know who's to blame. It's just 637 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: a measure of pun pointing it. Getting justice will be 638 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: another issue. The problem is that an Katao, there's dozens 639 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: of questionable deaths that straddle the line, dozens of last 640 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: souls whose families are looking for closure. If you have 641 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: any information about at least aDNA, please contact us at 642 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: producers at kat dash studios dot com. Death Island is 643 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Jeff Shane, 644 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 1: Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 645 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,959 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Tis. Music by Vanacore Music. Death 646 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: Island is a production of iHeartRadio and kat Studios. For 647 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 648 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.