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Speaker 1: Who baby, my baby, I need you, Oh how I

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Speaker 1: need you? What do you you expect? As a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, I'm your host Heidi Murkoff, and I'm

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Speaker 1: a mom on a mission, a mission to help you

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Speaker 1: know what to expect every step of the way. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you always pictured yourself cradling your baby at your breast,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that's precisely how it played out for months,

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Speaker 1: even years of blissful breastfeeding. Or maybe you had every

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Speaker 1: intention of going the breastfeeding distance six months, a year more,

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Speaker 1: but only made it through the first week or two.

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Speaker 1: Maybe your little one wouldn't latch, or your supply it

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Speaker 1: just wasn't up to babies demand. Maybe your nipples cracked

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Speaker 1: until they bled, or maybe your heart just wasn't in it.

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Speaker 1: Your body, your baby, your feeding choice. It sounds reasonable,

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Speaker 1: but is it always that simple. Actually it's not. For

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Speaker 1: far too many moms I've talked to, turning to a

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Speaker 1: bottle for whatever reason, even doctor's orders turns on the

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Speaker 1: judgment and turns up the stress, the pressure, the guilt.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly everyone's the parent police and you're the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: bad mom. Mm hmm, not on my watch. There is

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Speaker 1: no shame in the feeding game in my book. So

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Speaker 1: today we are here to help you move past that

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Speaker 1: guilt and move on to the joy, because ultimately, the

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Speaker 1: very best way to feed your baby is with love.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of moms who struggled with breastfeeding, I'm here with Emma. Hey, Emma, Hi, mom, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you were the little girl who breastfed all of your

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Speaker 1: dolls and your teddy bears when I was breastfeeding Wyatt,

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Speaker 1: your baby, even when I was like twelve years old.

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Speaker 1: That we're gonna be honest, Okay, but we're talking about

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Speaker 1: when you were a little girl, and and you know,

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Speaker 1: when when it came time to have your own baby, Lenox,

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Speaker 1: you didn't register for anything bottle feeding related. You didn't

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Speaker 1: register even for a pump or bottle um. Why would

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Speaker 1: I know exactly? So that's how sure you were you

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Speaker 1: were going to breastfeed Lenox, but it ended up being

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Speaker 1: a completely different story. So why don't you you share

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Speaker 1: your story? Okay? So I had Lennox and he was

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Speaker 1: born on time. He was tiny, he was like five

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Speaker 1: pounds fifteen ounces, but he was an IVF baby. So

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Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, that's I think it's more

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Speaker 1: normal for them to be on the smaller side. Yes, um.

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Speaker 1: But because of that, he was losing weight in the hospital,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the lactation consultants in the hospital. Eventually

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Speaker 1: we're like, okay, well, okay, he needs to eat something. Um,

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Speaker 1: your milk isn't coming, so let's introduce him to some formula.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh no, no, my baby is

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Speaker 1: not having a drop of formula hit his lips honey

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Speaker 1: from a bottle. Oh no. Yeah. So I became this

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Speaker 1: huge deal and eventually they convinced me. They're like, your

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Speaker 1: baby needs to get nourished, otherwise there's going to be

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Speaker 1: some major issues. So I gave it. Eventually, I Um.

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Speaker 1: I remember I was like, mom, is it okay? Is

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Speaker 1: it okay? Can he have formulas? Okay? You like, yes,

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Speaker 1: let them have formula. And I feel like in that moment,

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Speaker 1: like it started to unravel because in my mind, I

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Speaker 1: never was going to let my baby have formula, but

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Speaker 1: I had no choice. So that was when the threads

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Speaker 1: started to come undone. I remember pumping constantly. I would

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Speaker 1: stay up all night pumping. Um, you were closet, you

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Speaker 1: were a closet, I know. I would pump in the

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Speaker 1: closet literally, Um, when no one was looking, because everyone said,

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Speaker 1: you need stopped pumping. My nipple was hanging by a

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Speaker 1: thread at one point and I almost lost my nipple. Um.

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Speaker 1: I would be pumping blood into the pump and pus um.

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Speaker 1: I had an herbalist come in and put needles behind

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Speaker 1: my ears. I drank a non alcoholic beer. I had

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Speaker 1: a diet that consisted solely of root vegetables. I took

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Speaker 1: tons of herbs. I drank teas, which I hate. Look

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Speaker 1: coffee girl all the way. I've never had tea in

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Speaker 1: my life, but to make milk, I was gonna have tea.

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Speaker 1: It was a really hard time. I did cupping. My

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Speaker 1: back was covered in bruises. But you know what. We

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Speaker 1: live in l A, so I felt kind of cool.

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Speaker 1: I was like a celebrity. I'm copping. I would walk

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Speaker 1: outside with my cupping all over my back and a

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Speaker 1: tank topping. Yeah. I cupped so honestly. At that point,

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Speaker 1: it got to where I was bonding with my pump.

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Speaker 1: My pump was my baby. My pump was constantly on

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Speaker 1: my lap, and my baby wasn't because I because I

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Speaker 1: didn't make milk. I had the Madela and adustrial strength pump,

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Speaker 1: so that that thing, if you know, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: big one, it's not tiny. So I had someone else

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Speaker 1: holding the baby or if the baby sleeping, and I

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Speaker 1: was pumping. And also, didn't you try this the supplemental

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Speaker 1: nursing system with it? Yeah? I did the S and

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Speaker 1: S and that just made me and the baby cry

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Speaker 1: because you know, it works great for some people, but

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Speaker 1: for me, you know, I had these massive boobs and

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Speaker 1: these like giant nipples and then this giant boob was

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Speaker 1: coming towards my like five pound baby's face with like

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Speaker 1: attached to it, and He's like no, and he was hungry.

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Speaker 1: He was hungry. He was hungry. But yeah, yeah, so

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Speaker 1: he was like, no, I would rather starve than drink

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Speaker 1: out of that damn S and S. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It didn't work for me, um, but it does work

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people. It does. It's actually really

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Speaker 1: great for people who have adopted and want to breastfeed.

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Speaker 1: So my breastfeeding adventure wasn't that's great? What did it

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Speaker 1: take ultimately for you to it? Um? When I almost

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Speaker 1: lost my nipple for the second time, Also when I

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Speaker 1: also was losing my connection to my child, which I

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Speaker 1: with IVF. You try for that baby, you inject yourself

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Speaker 1: like thirty times a day. I wanted that baby, and

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Speaker 1: then afterwards I had my baby finally, and yet I

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Speaker 1: was so consumed with producing milk. Then I kind of

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Speaker 1: you were disconnected. You have just disconnected, and that was

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Speaker 1: the last thing I wanted. So eventually I was like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I have to accept this. You can't.

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Speaker 1: You have to cold turkey this because you can't slow

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Speaker 1: it down. You have to go cold turkey. Otherwise it's

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Speaker 1: just never going to change. And we kind of did

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Speaker 1: an intervention, right the doctors. I had doctor you know what,

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Speaker 1: the biggest one though, with the lactation consultant, she's like

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Speaker 1: their friend stopped. She's like the biggest breastfeeding advocate, and like,

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Speaker 1: you need to stop. This is not healthy. And she

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Speaker 1: is the one who will tell everybody to breast feed

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Speaker 1: from the top of a mountain. And she said you

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Speaker 1: need to stop. Stop stop. You say you felt like

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Speaker 1: a failure. One of the most moving things that I

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Speaker 1: heard from you is when you went to your first

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Speaker 1: mommy and me class, which ended up being your last

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Speaker 1: mommy and me class, and and you left sobbing. I

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Speaker 1: was mad at you because you suggested that I went

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Speaker 1: and I was like, how could you put me through this?

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Speaker 1: I didn't how Okay? So it was basically it was

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Speaker 1: your faults every well, you're my mom, um, it was

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Speaker 1: your fault. Um. So it was when Lennox hold was

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Speaker 1: he was like a month or two old, or maybe

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Speaker 1: three months, and I went to a mommy and me.

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Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I need to make some girlfriends,

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Speaker 1: you know, mom friends. My intentions were good. Your intentions

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Speaker 1: were good. However, all babies get hungry at that age,

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Speaker 1: like all the time. So everyone whips out there boobs

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Speaker 1: and I'm whipping out a bottle with formula, and I

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Speaker 1: felt like the elephant in the room. I was the

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Speaker 1: one who was having a bottle while everyone's boob was out. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was really depressing. It was really sad, and I

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Speaker 1: was like choking back tears the whole entire time. As

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Speaker 1: soon as like they said okay, class dismissed, I bolted

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Speaker 1: out of there and I got to my car and

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Speaker 1: I started crying and calling you, like how could you

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Speaker 1: pupp me through this? Yeah? But do you think that

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Speaker 1: they were actually judging or do you feel like maybe

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Speaker 1: you were judging yourself. I mean, it's it's it's sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's hard to gauge. I mean, come on, must be honest.

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Speaker 1: There ain't no one more judging than the mom. That's true.

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Speaker 1: So why do you think, why do you think there's

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Speaker 1: so much judgment and shame around breastfeeding? Well, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of it is that we're all not one

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Speaker 1: secure and how in what we're doing is moms, And

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Speaker 1: I think that like kind of like makes us feel

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Speaker 1: judgment towards other moms who maybe are doing what we'd

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Speaker 1: like to be doing or what we think we should

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Speaker 1: be doing, but we don't have it in us to do.

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Speaker 1: And I mean that's part of it. But I also

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Speaker 1: just think that you know, we're just a judge, you bunch,

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Speaker 1: Yes we are. It's funny because dads don't judge each other.

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Speaker 1: Only moms judge each other. They're like high five beer

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Speaker 1: high five. And guess what, they don't judge themselves. They're

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Speaker 1: totally cool with the way they are, and we judge

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Speaker 1: ourselves and that brings out the judgment against other moms,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's really unfortunate. So we're gonna break that

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Speaker 1: cycle right here, right now. Yeah, we are break those chains.

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Speaker 1: So let's take a quick break, and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: I'm answering the biggest questions you have about breastfeeding shame. Okay, mom,

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Speaker 1: let's break down the biggest questions our listeners have about

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding shame. What's your best advice for a new mom

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Speaker 1: who's this thing now, who's struggling with breastfeeding and wondering

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Speaker 1: that she should just give up and throw in the towel.

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Speaker 1: So here's the first thing that this mam has got

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Speaker 1: to know. Breastfeeding is a natural process. Moms and babies

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Speaker 1: have been doing it ever since the were moms and babies.

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Speaker 1: But it's a natural process that doesn't always come naturally,

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Speaker 1: at least not without lots and lots of support. And

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Speaker 1: there are so many obstacles that moms can stumble over

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Speaker 1: along the way. You've got your clog ducks and your

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Speaker 1: yeast infections and your cracked nipples, and you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: your baby won't latch, But they don't always have to

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Speaker 1: stop breastfeeding in its tracks. Sometimes they do, but sometimes

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Speaker 1: they don't, not if you have the right lectation support.

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Speaker 1: So here's my advice. If you are not ready to

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Speaker 1: throw in the nursing towel. Don't, at least not without

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Speaker 1: getting the support to see if it helps from a

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Speaker 1: lactation consultant. So we'll let che Lee wick a breastfeeding

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Speaker 1: support group, your pediatrician, even a pediatric dentist, if you

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Speaker 1: have a hunch that maybe your baby has got a

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Speaker 1: lip tie or a tongue tie that's keeping them from

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Speaker 1: latching on properly. And if that support helps, great, and

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Speaker 1: if it doesn't, still great because you tried. And the

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Speaker 1: other thing. I think it's really important to keep in

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Speaker 1: mind breastfeeding is not a binary choice. So lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of moms have the idea that either you breastfeed

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Speaker 1: exclusively or you formula feed exclusively. Either it's all breasts

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Speaker 1: or it's all bottle and that's just not true. You

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Speaker 1: can actually combine breastfeeding and bottle feeding, breast milk and

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Speaker 1: formula in any combination that ends up working for you.

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Speaker 1: You could begin every feeding with breasts and then top

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Speaker 1: off with a bottle. You can switch off every other feeding,

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Speaker 1: or you can, and moms are incredulous to hear this,

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Speaker 1: you can mix even a tiny drop a breast milk

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Speaker 1: into a bottle of formula. You know, if that's all

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Speaker 1: the breast milk that you could pump, and the enzymes

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Speaker 1: in the breast milk help your baby digests the formula

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Speaker 1: so they actually do mix, you can do the combo.

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Speaker 1: But just as importantly, and I can't emphasize this enough, Emma,

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Speaker 1: you know this. You've got to know your limits and

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Speaker 1: your baby's limits, and you've got to know when it's

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Speaker 1: time to call it quits on breastfeeding. Whenever that time comes,

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Speaker 1: whatever the reason, you know, maybe baby is not getting fed,

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Speaker 1: or maybe you're just fed up with the struggle, just

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Speaker 1: do it. Just do it and don't look back, because

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Speaker 1: then you can look forward. You can look forward to

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Speaker 1: feedings that you actually look forward to instead of dreading

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Speaker 1: you know, that are fun and and filled with joy

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Speaker 1: and free of pain and stress. So my advice then

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Speaker 1: is just fill up that bottle of formula and get

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Speaker 1: busy without a single ounce of regret. Okay, how can

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Speaker 1: consultants in the hospital that can feel like pressure is

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Speaker 1: an effective way to deflect those stressful interactions? Well, look,

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Speaker 1: you know you know this, Emma. I am a huge

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Speaker 1: supporter of breastfeeding support, and I will defend a mom's

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Speaker 1: for as long as she needs it. But when breastfeating

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Speaker 1: support leads to pressure, even policing, whether that's by electation,

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Speaker 1: staff for its nurses, even doctors, or it could be

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Speaker 1: from friends and family, that's not okay. Support has to

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Speaker 1: be gentle, it has to be respectful, It has to

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Speaker 1: be mindful of a mom's mindset and her personal physical

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Speaker 1: and emotional space, and most important, it has to factor

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Speaker 1: in her feelings. And most breastfeeding support that's offered in

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Speaker 1: hospitals is absolutely all of those things. I've seen it

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Speaker 1: in action hundreds of times, but once in a while,

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Speaker 1: once in a while, and even with the best of intentions,

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Speaker 1: because they meanwhile, it can get over zealous. Sometimes it

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Speaker 1: gets pushy, and sometimes it gets judge and you're feeling

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Speaker 1: really at your most vulnerable and also your most naked

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Speaker 1: right because you are literally half naked, and someone is

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Speaker 1: taking your breast and physically maneuvering and molding your breast

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Speaker 1: into like all kinds of pretzel positions that that may

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Speaker 1: in that moment feel uncomfortable to you. Or awkward by

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Speaker 1: all means, take advantage of flactation support in the hospital

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to give breastfeeding your best shot, and

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Speaker 1: then plan on continuing that support as needed once you

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Speaker 1: get out of the hospital, because, let's face the most

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding problems don't come up in the hospital. They come

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Speaker 1: up once you get home. In your breasts are you know,

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Speaker 1: the breast of eight Manhattan. They're giant, they're and gorge,

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Speaker 1: they're painful, and baby can't get a grip. So that's

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Speaker 1: when you're gonna need to support the most. But if

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Speaker 1: a nurse or a lactation consultant, or anyone in the

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Speaker 1: hospital or outside the hospital, if you'd rather they step away,

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Speaker 1: at least for the moment, tell them, just tell them

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Speaker 1: it's fine to say nicely, or even not so nicely,

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Speaker 1: or even better, let someone else. Can Daddy do that?

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Speaker 1: Paddy can't do that. I'm not about that, Like no,

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Speaker 1: and you're feeling so homnitable. It's so much better if

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Speaker 1: someone else sends that message. But if you have made

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Speaker 1: that decision, this wasn't you, emma. But if you've made

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Speaker 1: that decision already in the hospital, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: breastfeed for whatever reason. Maybe you can't breastfeed. Don't feel

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Speaker 1: compelled to explain that decision. Just say I plan to

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Speaker 1: feed my baby with love. I mean, who's going to

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Speaker 1: argue with that? I could not agree more. Preach that

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Speaker 1: I'm preaching. I'm pretty preach it, Mama, preach it. Okay.

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Speaker 1: How can a mom handle the pressure from friends, family, mothers,

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Speaker 1: mother in laws to breastfeed? Well, I hope I didn't

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Speaker 1: apply that pressure to you, emma, but you know it.

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Speaker 1: I think it starts in pregnancy, right, Like everybody's giving

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Speaker 1: you advice that you didn't ask for, and everybody's rubbing

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Speaker 1: your belly without permission. They say it takes a village

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Speaker 1: to raise a child, and it does, but for some reason,

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Speaker 1: people take that expression just way too literally, and they

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Speaker 1: see pregnant bellies and babies as some kind of community property,

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Speaker 1: like they're up for grabs. Everybody gets a piece, right,

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Speaker 1: And what happens is, instead of finding the village of support,

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Speaker 1: which every mom needs every mom benefits from, it becomes

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Speaker 1: kind of like a pregnancy and parenting police state where

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Speaker 1: everybody and your mother and your mother in law and

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Speaker 1: those strangers in the park on the park bench are

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Speaker 1: telling you what to do and what not to do.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing got to remember. Parenting isn't something

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Speaker 1: that's supposed to be done by committee. Everybody doesn't get

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Speaker 1: a vote. Only parents get a vote, you know, once

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Speaker 1: they've consulted with their pediatrician. Of course, I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about your parents. I'm not talking about your mother and

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Speaker 1: your mother in law. I'm talking about you and your partner.

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Speaker 1: Because your mom, your parents, they found their way with

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Speaker 1: their their own babies, and now it's your your time

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Speaker 1: to find your way with yours. But the fact is

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Speaker 1: nobody knows what's best for your baby better than you do, right.

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Speaker 1: You know your body best, your baby best, your situation best.

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Speaker 1: And the bottom line is your breast your baby your business.

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Speaker 1: Why is anyone's business are you breastfeeding? That's like asking

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Speaker 1: how old you are? Like, okay, mind your business. People

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Speaker 1: have done that to me too, Mind your business? Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I okay. How can a mother navigate the guilt of

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding her first child but not her second. We've all

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Speaker 1: got to remember our mommy mantra. What's our mommy mantra?

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Speaker 1: Let's repeat after me. Every mom is different Every baby

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Speaker 1: is different, every breastfeeding journey is different. And some journeys

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Speaker 1: never get off the ground, and that's okay. And some

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Speaker 1: journeys go on forever and ever into the into the

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Speaker 1: preschool years, and that's okay too. And for the same mom,

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Speaker 1: two journeys can be completely different and that's okay. So

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Speaker 1: first time could be the charm, second could be the struggle,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it's the other way around. It does not matter.

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Speaker 1: As long as all of your babies are fed and

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Speaker 1: loved and nurtured and nourished, healthy and safe, it's a

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Speaker 1: good day. And when we come back, it's helped me, Heidi,

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Speaker 1: And now it's time for help me, Heidi. We're all

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Speaker 1: answer you're pressing pregnancy and parenting questions, no holds barred,

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Speaker 1: no field allowed, t m I, no such thing. We're

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Speaker 1: all moms here or dad's chances are if you have

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Speaker 1: the question, other parents due to you are not alone.

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Speaker 1: Motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood, and we're here to help

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Speaker 1: a sister out. So Emma, who needs help today? Okay.

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Speaker 1: So this comes from a listener who says, so, I've

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Speaker 1: decided to bottle feed after three weeks of trying my

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Speaker 1: hardest to breastfeed my baby. I feel your girl, but

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Speaker 1: I feel so guilty and so worried that he and

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Speaker 1: I won't have the bond that comes from breastfeeding. Help Um, Mama,

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Speaker 1: you know I've always got your back, Emma's got your back,

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Speaker 1: but you've also got to have your own back, and

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Speaker 1: right this minute, you've got to give yourself a big, giant, loving,

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Speaker 1: accepting pat on your own back like you mean it. First,

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Speaker 1: you've got to congratulate yourself on those three weeks of

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding you put in. I cannot say this enough. Any

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Speaker 1: drop of breast melting makes its way into your baby

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Speaker 1: or colossrum is something to celebrate. Next, you've got to

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Speaker 1: congratulate yourself on making a decision that was yours alone

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Speaker 1: to make in the first place, and that, for you,

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Speaker 1: is the decision that's right for you and your baby,

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Speaker 1: because remember this, if it's not right for you, it

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Speaker 1: is not going to be right for your baby. And

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Speaker 1: you've heard the expression fed is best and it's absolutely true.

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Speaker 1: Baby's got to eat and eat enough to grow and thrive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: formula isn't an exact replica a breast milk, because in

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Speaker 1: you've still got the trademark on that secret sauce, and

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Speaker 1: it comes at a price. But still, the right kind

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Speaker 1: of formula makes a great substitute for breast milk or

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Speaker 1: or supplement to it. But here's how I like to

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Speaker 1: put it. Fed with love is best. The most important

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Speaker 1: ingredient in any feeding is the love. That's what puts

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Speaker 1: the nurture in nourishment. Think about it. Breastfeeding builds that

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Speaker 1: mom baby connection right into the feeding. You can't, as

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Speaker 1: I often point out, prop your breasts and leave the room.

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Speaker 1: Your baby is naturally positioned at precisely the right distance,

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Speaker 1: the one she can see your face best at to

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Speaker 1: soak up your smiles. Gaze back into your adoring eyes.

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Speaker 1: Here your whispers of love. So bottle feed the same way,

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Speaker 1: open your shirt, cuddle up close, position your baby as

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Speaker 1: you would at your breast. Use feedings as bonding time,

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Speaker 1: which by the way, will be a lot easier to

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Speaker 1: do if you're both relaxed and not stressed out about

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Speaker 1: how much milk you're making or how much your nipples hurt.

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Speaker 1: Take your time to go slow with the flow and

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Speaker 1: paste the feeding pause often as your baby would naturally

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Speaker 1: during breastfeeding, and Bottle feeding doesn't have to be fast food.

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Speaker 1: Keep your baby in a more upright position and tilt

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Speaker 1: the bottle only slightly so the milk fills the nipple

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Speaker 1: only gradually. The perks to paste bottle feeding less gas,

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Speaker 1: less fit up, more time for building that bond. When

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Speaker 1: when when? So, here's the feeding your baby with love,

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Speaker 1: no matter how you're filling her tummy. Who babylf my baby,

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Speaker 1: belof I need you, Oh how I need you. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening. Remember I'm always here for you. What to

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Speaker 1: Expect is always here for you. We're all in this together.

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Speaker 1: For more on what you heard on today's episode, visit

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Speaker 1: what to Expect dot com slash podcasts. You can also

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Speaker 1: check out What to Expect when You're Expecting, What to

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Speaker 1: Expect the First Year, and the What to Expect app

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Speaker 1: And we want to hear from you. Connect with us

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Speaker 1: on our community message board or on our social media.

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Speaker 1: You can find me at Heidi Murkoff and Emma at

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Speaker 1: Emma bing w t E and of course at What

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Speaker 1: to Expect. Baby Love is performed by Riley Peterer. What

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Speaker 1: to Expect is a production of I Heart Radio. From

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Speaker 1: more shows from I Heart Radio, check out the i

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Speaker 1: Heart radio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows. In my arms, what don't you stay

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Speaker 1: Neja Needa, baby, Baby,