WEBVTT - The Imp of the Perverse 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:05.240 Induction. A posteriory would have brought phrenology to admit an 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:10.639 innate and primitive principle of human action, a paradoxical something 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:15.200 which we may call perverseness for want of a more 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:19.200 characteristic term. In the sense I intend, it is in 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.920 fact a mobile without a motive, a motive not motivert 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:29.080 through its promptings we act without comprehensible object or, if 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.400 this shall be understood as a contradiction in terms, we 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.840 may so far modify the proposition as to say that, 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:39.519 through its promptings we act for the reason that we 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:44.279 should not. In theory, no reason can be more unreasonable. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.320 But in fact there is none more strong. With certain minds, 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:53.199 under certain conditions, it becomes absolutely irresistible. I am not 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.760 more certain that I breathe than that the assurance of 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.800 the wrong or error of any action is often the 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:05.280 one unconquerable force which impels us, and alone impels us 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.360 to its prosecution. Nor will this overwhelming tendency to do 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.880 wrong for the wrong sake admit of analysis or resolution 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:18.319 into ulterior elements. It is a radical, a primitive impulse, 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:25.720 elementary welcome to stuff to blow your mind, a production 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:34.520 of I Heart Radios, how stuff works. Hey, you welcome 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:36.320 to Stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.880 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And if you recognize that 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.240 opening reading, you must be into the deep cuts of 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.160 Edgar Allan Poe. The story didn't even have him burying 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.080 anybody alive. Yeah, this is This is not like you said. 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:49.520 This is this is not going to be a hit 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.120 single from Poe by any means. This is this is 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.600 more of a deep cut. Uh. You're probably far more 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.000 familiar with the Tell Tale Heart or the Black Cat, 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.080 two stories that contains similar elements, and then we'll touch 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.840 on later in this episode. Yeah. So this is from 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:11.160 Edgar Allan poet short story The Imp of the Perverse, 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.400 And we start with this today because in this short story, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.560 Poe brings up this concept of the imp of the 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:22.280 perverse or this, uh, this motive toward perversity, the idea 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.680 of doing something exclusively for the reason that you know 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.960 it should not be done and not for any other reason. 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.359 And in this story the Imp of the Perverse, there 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.560 is actually a murder. You don't get to the murder 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.760 for a while. Poe makes you wait before before any 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.720 plot there's just this long musing complete with lots of 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.960 references to the pseudoscience of phrenology. But it's amusing on 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.799 this particular impulse of perverseness, the powerful urge to do 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.360 what we should not and to do it simply for 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.280 the reason that it should not be done. And so 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.639 Pope goes on to analyze this concept throughout the sort 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.360 of s say section of the story. He calls it 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.280 a radical primitive impulse uh, and he contrasts it with 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.120 other types of drives that we have, which he frames 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.960 in terms of the pseudoscience of phrenology. Again, he says 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:17.280 it's different from mere combativeness because combativeness stems from an 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.320 instinct for self defense. Right, It's rooted in the desire 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.840 to be well and to protect yourself from injury. So 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.000 Poe writes, quote, but in the case of that something 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.400 which I term perverseness, the desire to be well is 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:36.040 not only not aroused, but a strongly antagonistical sentiment exists. 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.960 So I take that to mean he's trying to make 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.240 clear he's not talking about any kind of self defensive 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:47.400 combativeness or antagonism, but rather a kind of suicidal antagonism, 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:51.440 a thwarting of one's own best interests simply because you 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.040 have a desire to do something that you shouldn't do. Now, 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.360 the example that Poe uses here, of course, is one 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.960 that I think most of us can't directly relate to, 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.560 the idea of of of this impulse to confess a 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.240 secret murder that you committed, but the the idea of 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.960 being tempted to do something that you absolutely know you 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:19.640 shouldn't do, like for for no logical reason interest, right, Like, 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.000 I think we can all relate to that on some level. 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.200 Like I often think about this kind of thing when 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.280 I'm in meetings. If I'm saying, like a one on 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.880 one meeting with my boss, I say it's a you know, 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.920 a performance review or you know, what have you, I'll 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.839 suddenly I'll be sitting there nodding, listening, absorbing the information, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.560 and then like this random thought will occur, like what 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.800 if I licked the desk right now? But if what 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.560 if I started eating an ink pen, just chewing on it, 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.920 but just like really uh, you know, showing down on it. 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.080 And I'm not logically tempted to do these things. But 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.680 then once the ideas in my mind, uh, I just 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.400 keep thinking about it. I mean it's different from like, 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.440 they are two very different ways to have a desire 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.800 to say something inappropriate during a meeting with one's boss 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.440 or something. One reason would be, well, maybe you've you know, 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.919 you've got all these kinds of pent up feelings about 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.160 your boss, and you're very angry and you think you've 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.880 been wronged or something like that, and then that would 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:21.720 be a sort of natural desire to express your feelings 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.760 and rebel against some kind of injustice or get revenge 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.360 by saying what you really think. That would be one thing. 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.440 You're talking about something different and post talking about something 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:34.240 different when when all those feelings aren't even necessarily they're 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.840 just wanting, having this impulse to say something or do 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.880 something completely inappropriate for no good reason at all. I 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.400 know exactly what you're talking about. I often have this 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:47.760 thought when I'm in like a meeting or you have 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.800 something's going on. Sometimes something just flashes into my head, 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.000 like I could utter the following sentence and it would 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.719 destroy my career, yeah, or or just do you think, like, well, 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.320 what if I, like crab walked out of this meeting 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.240 right now? You know, it wouldn't be that difficult to do, 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.000 and yet it would totally uh, it would it would 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:12.600 totally change everyone's perceptions of how I, uh, you know, 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.640 how I experience reality and you know, the seriousness with 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.880 which I take my job, that sort of thing. Um 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:20.960 And and I guess, as as we'll come back to 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:22.839 in this episode, a lot of it comes down to 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.520 just that that weird dividing line between thought and action. Yeah. Yeah, 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.240 it's almost as if whenever you do this, you're exploring 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:33.600 what it means to contemplate an action without doing it. 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.480 It's kind of the same way. It's almost like you're 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.480 feeling the texture of something in those moments where you 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.800 wonder what it would be like to swerve into oncoming 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.280 traffic or to jump off of a tall ledge. I mean, 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.640 you remember a while back you did an episode with 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.240 Christian about the idea of the call of the void, 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.240 and I think this touches on some similar stuff. Right. 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.520 It's not necessarily that people, I mean, people do have 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.719 suicidal ideation that is more deeply rooted in in in 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.640 ongoing problems they have, but there's also just the sort 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.039 of like momentary fleeting impulses that don't even seem to 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.840 be connected to anything larger. Yeah, yeah, that was I 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.120 definitely recommend listeners go back to that episode because we 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.280 touched on not only know how that we get these 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:22.239 ideas in our head, this weird temptation when we're saying, um, 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.040 you know, a top of tall building or on the 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.160 cliff side. But in that episode, I shared how in 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.520 the past I've also felt like this weird feeling like 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.720 I need to press my wallet to the bottom of 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.400 my pocket for fear that I'll take my wallet out 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.320 and say throw it, throw it over the railing of 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.280 the Empire State Building, And you know, which is something 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.120 I definitely don't want to do. But then once the 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.280 idea has entered my head, it does sort of feel 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.200 like I should take steps to keep it from happening. Yeah, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.560 And you almost feel like you wonder, for a second, 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.600 am I going to be able to stop myself. In 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.480 this long section where Poe talks about the idea of 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.400 peering into an abyss in in the story, he says, quote, 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.400 there is no passion in nature so demoniacally impatient as 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.600 that of him who, shuddering upon the edge of a precipice, 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.480 thus meditates a plunge to indulge for a moment in 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.080 any attempt at thought is not to be inevitably lost 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.800 for reflection, but urges us to forbear. And therefore it 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.680 is I say that we cannot if there be no 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.400 friendly arm to check us, or if we fail in 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:30.120 a sudden effort to prostrate ourselves backwards from the abyss, 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.839 we plunge and are destroyed. So it's this weird thing 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.720 where he's almost like saying, you've got to depend on 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.240 some kind of part of you to suddenly be the guard. 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:42.800 What if that part of you the guard, isn't paying 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.599 attention in some moment. I believe I mentioned this in 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:47.640 the call the Void episode, but stuff like this always 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.120 makes me think of uh. The author Robert Graves his 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:56.680 partial autobiography Goodbye to All that he talks about his 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.440 experiences in the war, but also of a mountain climbing, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.640 and if memory serves, there's this one part where he 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.720 talks about climbing scaling these uh you know, these cliff 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.960 sides with some friends and how like the scariest moment 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.800 was when birds were sailing close by and and having 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.680 to sort of wrestle with this this weird illogical feeling 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.240 of love. What have I let go? What if? What 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.559 if like the birds were sort of tempting them with 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.440 this siren song of like, you know, let go and 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.439 fly with us. I don't know if this is inspired 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.120 by that, but I seem to recall a kind of 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.800 stock scene and a lot of cartoons, like Wiley coyote 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.880 type cartoons where a character, often the kind of bumbling, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.400 you know, prone to injury kind of character, would be 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.959 out over allege on a precipice or on a tight 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.600 rope or something and would be harassed by a bird 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.240 fluttering fluttering around nearby. There's something that does seem to 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.240 go deep about you being vulnerable at the edge and 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.040 then a creature that has powers that you can't just 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.720 floating around as light as a breeze. Oh yeah, I've 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.199 definitely experienced it. Say, standing at the edge of the 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:10.680 Grand Canyon, We're not the edge, several feetback, but still 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.200 watching a bird traverse these to this drastic change in 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.680 elevation with without any issue at all. Now, personally, Robert, 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.559 do you find yourself to be I think the term 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.640 would be criminophobic and having a fear of sharp drop 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:29.200 offs and precipices. Yeah, at times, Yeah, like we we 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.840 have another episode that we are currently researching and recording 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:37.600 soon on mountains, and just looking at certain pictures of mountains, 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:43.479 looking at um specifically walkways carved into the sides of mountains, 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:45.959 at times, they made me cringe a little bit because 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.280 and I could just imagine myself crawling upward down those 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:52.960 stairs as opposed to you know, walking up and down 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.520 them like a normal pilgrim or something. This is funny 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.160 because I have tons of fears. I'm full of anxieties 0:10:58.160 --> 0:10:59.800 about all kinds of things in the world, but not 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.920 this I I do. I'm almost kind of drawn to 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.320 sharp drop offs. I always want to go right up 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.960 to them and look over. Yeah, well, not not me, 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.440 but of course it's always it's always a challenge taking 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.960 a small child to these places because because my son 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.040 he definitely wants to go up and check out the edge, 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.000 and it just that that annurbs me even more. Well, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.280 I can imagine that would change everything I I my 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.400 whole life. I've had the experience of being told to 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.920 stay away from the edge even now. Yeah, well I 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.360 I had this issue before a kid was in my life, 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.640 for sure, though, it's just the the edge is too close. 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:35.880 Well anyway, sorry, So to come back to the ed 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.960 Garland post story. Uh, the story goes on to tell 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.440 of how the narrator he goes he gives this long essay, 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.520 this kind of speech about phrenology and about the mp 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.960 of the perverse, and then he tells a very brief 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:50.960 version of his story, which is that he came up 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.400 with an ingenious plan to get away with murder, and 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:56.480 the way he did it was he murdered someone with 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.520 a poisoned candlestick because he knew they would light a 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.240 candle to read in bed at night, and so he 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.120 gets away with the murder undetected. But then years later, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.480 having totally gotten away with it, he is seized with 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.439 this uncontrollable urge to confess in public, which he does 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.320 kind of raving in the middle of a public you know, 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:19.080 marketplace type area, which of course lands him in chains 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.880 and sentenced to hang for his crime. And that's where 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.040 he is as he tells the story. But the story 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.600 itself might not be all that remarkable as far as 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.920 post stories go, but it does bring up this interesting 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.200 idea personifies this imp of the perverse, the idea of 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.920 wanting to do something simply because it is something that 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.520 should not be done, either like morally, you know, maybe 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.120 it's a violation of norms, or because it's against one's 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.800 own interest. That there's just some compelling force telling you 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.160 not to do it, and that's the very reason you 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.840 can't stop thinking about doing it. Yeah. I mentioned the 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.800 tell Tale Heart earlier, and I think that's that's I 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.360 think most would agree that's probably a better story that 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.760 deals with with with with a very similar premise. The idea, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.280 of course, and that if you haven't read it, is 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.719 that this guy killed an old man and buried him 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.720 under the boards, and is what is living room. I 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.120 believe the police come to ask questions and he just 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.400 hears the thumping of the heart until it drives him bonkers, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.640 and he just starts pulling up the boards right or 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.600 or or telling the the investigators like, look, he's under there, 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.600 pull up the boards. I killed him, and his you know, 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.880 his heart is beating um uh. And in that he's 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.840 dealing with the imp of the perverse as well, manifested 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.079 as this this nagging beating heart. Now, it's been a 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.480 while since I've read The tell Tale Heart. Maybe you 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.200 can answer this better than I, um, do you think 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.640 that does guilt play a role in that story? Is 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.480 he guilty for about what he has done and is 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.760 a feeling of guilt driving him towards his confession, or 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:56.920 is it more like the imp of the perverse where 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.120 he doesn't even seem to feel bad about it, He's 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.160 just got this urged to tell Well, you know, it's 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.320 been a once since I've read it, or I remember 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.720 seeing like a stage adaptation of it as as a kid. Uh, 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.560 it's been a while since i've I've I've interacted with either, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.480 but I remember I used to think it was more 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.520 the guilt issue, because that seems like the the obvious trope, right, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.400 the idea that you're you're just you've done this horrible thing, 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:21.920 and the weight of the thing you've done eventually pulls 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.800 out the confession. But having become acquainted with the imp 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.200 of the perverse now, which which I've before reached researching 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.640 this episode I was not familiar with, I think it 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.400 really makes me realize that Poe was probably thinking about 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.360 other ideas here, and he was dealing with something a 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:42.040 little more complicated in the human mind as opposed to 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:47.720 this more cliched Uh. Imbalancing in the human heart. So 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.440 maybe his his urge to confess was not a moral 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.040 urge but more just kind of uh, the imp of 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.880 the perverse, it was a neuroticism. Yeah, So one thing 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.280 I think about, especially given all the references to phrenology 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.200 in this post. Sorry, I guess you know, before you 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:05.600 had psychology, you had pseudoscience like phrenology, And it makes 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:07.120 me think about me, you know, what's the kind of 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.000 bridge between these two worlds, you know, getting getting to 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.960 modern psychology, and that makes me go to Freudian is Um. 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:14.640 I don't know if your brain kind of goes to 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:19.120 the same place there, but I mean you see echoes 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:21.360 of things like the imp of the perverse in the 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.480 writings in the psychoanalysis style of Freud, right, where he 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.120 talked about things like a death drive or or a 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.600 death instinct. Right, And would that be sort of related? Yeah, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.800 I believe so, and I've and I found you know, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.800 a few authors that have chimed in on this. So 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.920 Sigmund Freud, just to refresh it, lived eighteen fifty six 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.400 through nine nine, and he's best remembered for his work 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.320 on the unconscious mind, but he also theorized about the 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:50.960 role of powerful instincts that energize the mind. And these 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.800 instincts are numerous and varied, but he grouped them into 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:59.200 two main categories. There's aros uh the the life instinct, 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.400 and then there's Thanatos, the death instinct. And these names, 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.480 of course refer to the Greek mythological gods of life 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.640 and death. So the sexual influence of the libido only 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.400 concerns only connects directly to the instincts of aros of 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:18.520 One of the instincts of Thanatos focus on aggression, self destruction, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.080 and cruelty. So I think it would be reasonable to 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.119 situate the imp of the reverse within the Freudian instinct 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:29.320 family of Thanatos. Now, I was looking around for papers 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:30.840 on this and I found a really good one from 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.360 Laura Lai Carraman, and she explored this in a two 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.640 thousand fourteen paper titled the Urge to tell Versus the 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.920 need to conceal confession as narrative desire, impose the black Cat, 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.760 the tail, tale Heart, and the imp of the Perverse, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.360 And this was published in American and British Studies Annual, 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.720 and as the title indicates, um the author Karaman points 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.840 out that that Poe considered the drive to confess in 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.600 not only The Imp but also in the more well 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.920 known Black Cat and the tell Tale Heart quote. What 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.159 is noteworthy is the nature of these confessions, their inexplicable, 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.480 irrational quality, as if driven by a certain kind of 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.000 urgency by a foreseemingly independent of their will. If the 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.159 crimes committed appear more or less calculated, their confessions, by contrast, 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:23.080 are almost unaccountably impulsive. That's yeah, that's totally accurate to 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.360 the actual writing of the story, the imp of the perverse. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.200 I mean, the author is cold and calculating and psychopathic 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.800 about the crime. You know, he thinks it through, he 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.320 plans it out, he doesn't appear to feel bad about it. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.359 But then the can the desire to confess comes on 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.240 as just this kind of like obsession from out of 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.440 nowhere that he can't keep his mouth closed. He's running 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.720 around thinking I'm about to blurt it out, and then does. Yeah. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.800 In this paper, the author points out that the past critics, 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:56.159 such as Author Brown and Henry Sussman, have taken you know, 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.120 all of this apart, with the latter Sussmen pointing out 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.600 that the actor can of confession in these tales is 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.960 a quote transgression of the boundaries between the private and 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.600 the public kind of way. Again, that that that gray 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:11.760 line between thought and action of essence. Um. So you know, 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.439 in these stories we see something that exists in the 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.160 mind leaking out. Uh, you know, the desire to tell 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.280 overpowers the desire for concealment. Um. Well, you know, one 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.879 thing I wonder about with the references to phrenology in 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.760 the story is that in the nineteenth century there could 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.800 easily have been anxieties about the idea of an emerging 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.120 science of the mind. Do you ever think about this 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.880 like that? You're so a person always has their private thoughts, 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.359 their thoughts or their own or maybe there between them 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.680 and the god they believe in or whatever, but their 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.320 private in some way other people can't know about them. 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.120 But I wonder if you live in a world where 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.360 there are all these burgeoning sciences, and the sciences are 0:18:55.359 --> 0:19:01.040 increasingly uh, intruding into domains like light and you know, 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:04.600 in the social sciences and the mind itself, and you know, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.800 the emerging fields like psychology, you have to start to wonder, 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.480 will people be able to read my mind with these sciences? 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.240 Is there is there going to be a diminution of 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.520 the private privilege with one's own thoughts? How Yeah, when 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.120 we see this kind of anxiety reflected in so many 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.159 works of science fiction over the years, you know, the 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:31.080 idea of of thought police, um, you know, determining what 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.919 what's going on inside your head, of of passing through 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.680 that boundary between action and thought. I was, in fact 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.600 just reading a Peter Watts short story about this very topic. Um. 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.280 But but but in these stories, something that Carmen point 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.679 points out and drives home and referencing the work of 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.760 these other um scholars, is that, you know, it's ultimately 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.320 it's not as simple as oh, this character is mad 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.080 well and that's why they did their crime and or 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.119 blurted it out, but that there's something going on in 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:06.080 the unconscious that is by definition unreadable. And that's the 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:12.360 ultimate spooky, scary, mysterious part. That there's something, uh, there's 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.600 something going on in there, that there are these contradictory 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:18.480 drives in the subconscious and uh, and we don't really 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.159 know what to expect from them. Well, yeah, I can 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.640 see this story situated again in kind of a bridge 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:27.320 land between an old model that might often like an 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.359 old model of the mind that might have often said, 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.240 if you have drives or desires that don't feel like yours, 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.719 that's a demon, you know, like that you could actually 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.520 have the devil whispering in your ear, that it's an 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.480 imp you know. And there then you've got devil possession 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.480 and all that. And then you've got this, uh, this 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.040 new way of thinking about things where where well, maybe 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.040 you don't consciously understand all of your own drives and 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.440 desires and motivations. Yeah, absolutely, um, you know, and all 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.439 of this I can't help but think back to Um. 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.199 I can't remember the exact biblical whole passage, but the 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.919 basic idea that you see reflected in a lot of 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.520 Christian theology that um, if you do something in your heart, 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.399 it is is it is as if you did it 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.440 in real life, as if you actually committed the act. 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:18.280 And um again like even that without getting into kind 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.679 of like the you know, the theological discourse on it, 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.000 that's kind of dealing in this this this thin line 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.520 or this time seemingly thin line between thought and action, 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:33.399 between contemplation of theological and and the you know, and 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.520 committing the illogical. Yeah, and in in that whole thing. 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.240 I mean, I can see arguments on on both sides 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.520 of the whole like if you are whoever has felt 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.040 wrath against his brother has committed murder in his heart. 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.439 On one hand, I mean, that seems like that's kind 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:50.879 of almost kind of a very bad lesson to teach people, 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.080 right like that, you know, it's it's just as bad 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.159 to think about doing something bad as it is to 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.199 actually do it. It kind of blurs the line of 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.200 like resistance to evil, right, and especially as we proceed 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.359 through the there's this episode, we're going to get into 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:06.639 some areas where it really shows how problematic that is. 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:09.480 Because I don't think that, you know, try to think 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.920 something else. But I mean it does highlights even if 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:16.480 we can say that's maybe bad advice, it does highlight something. 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.600 And what it highlights is that, um, you know, if 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:24.359 you allow yourself to contemplate something that you know you 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.960 should not do a lot, you may very well wear 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.320 down your resistance to doing it right. All right, Well, 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:32.280 on that note, let's let's take a quick break and 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.480 when we come back, we will chase the imp a 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:41.640 little bit more through this subconscious than Thank alright, we're back, 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:43.960 So We've been discussing this idea of the imp of 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:46.480 the perverse that comes from this Ed Garland post short 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.000 story from the eighteen forties, where there is this strong 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:53.880 impulse to do something just because you shouldn't do it 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.399 and not for other reasons. So I was reading an 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.080 article about this in Psychology today by Meal Bruno, who 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:04.480 is a professor at u PEN, and it brought up 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.440 a few interesting things. So this article tells an interesting 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.800 story about the imp and inhibition and neuroscience. And the 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:13.400 story starts when Bruno was in graduate school and he 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.840 talks about how he witnessed a neuropathology examination of a 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:21.040 deceased patient. And so a neuropathology examination involves cutting open 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.119 the brain and examining it and figuring out, you know it, 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:28.520 was there any damaged tissues or a neural degeneration. And 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.000 also present at this examination was a social worker who 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.760 had known the patient before he died. And so the 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.879 autopsy revealed degeneration in the prefrontal cortex, especially of the 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:44.200 dorso lateral prefrontal cortex. And this is the outer part 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:46.800 of the brain, starting above the temples and sort of 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:50.320 reaching up onto the outside of the forehead, and Bruno 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:54.320 mentions that this area is important for cognitive control. I 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:56.840 was reading about its role in cognition and behavior, and 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:59.680 it's generally believed to have a lot to do with 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:03.359 many different kinds of executive function. This includes things like 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.880 selective attention, choosing what to pay attention to and what 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:10.880 to think about, things like working memory and meta memory. 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:15.480 So meta memory is the cognitive management of memories, like 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.760 judging whether a particular memory is relevant or correct. But 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:22.520 this area also appears to have things to do with planning, 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:28.399 with regulating and overriding emotions, and crucially with inhibition. And 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:31.960 the management of inhibition also appears to be a major 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:36.280 function of the prefrontal cortex in general, which remember, showed 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.800 damage all over in this patient. So because of this 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:43.879 physical neuropathology, the doctor performing the autopsy asked the man's 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:48.160 social worker if he had had any issues with impulsiveness 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.640 and control, and the social workers said yes. In fact, 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:54.919 later in life, this man had repeatedly had a problem 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:59.919 with jumping out of moving cars. Jumping out of moving cars, 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:04.080 and I thought that's really interesting because that's not just 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:08.160 something like, you know, taking food out of somebody's hand. 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:13.720 Or or sexually inappropriate behavior, things that are certainly wrong, 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:17.639 but that you can see how disinhibition would allow just 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:21.639 sort of natural urges that people have otherwise to to 0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:25.120 come out without being mediated by the thought I shouldn't 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:27.840 do that. With jumping out of moving cars, you have 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:30.520 to wonder more like, where does that urge come from 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:32.960 to begin with? And in fact, this kind of thing 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:36.040 is more common than we might normally imagine. Berno himself 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:39.800 rights that quote. Fifty seven percent of people with fronto 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:43.640 temporal dementia, which is neural degeneration that targets the frontal 0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:49.480 and temporal lobes violate social norms, engaging in sexual transgressions 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:53.720 and public nudity, shoplifting in front of store managers, eating 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.359 out of the trash. It is common knowledge in the 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:59.159 field of neuroscience now that these behaviors are due to 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:03.159 a problem of disinhibition because of a deterioration of the 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:07.840 cognitive control network of the lateral prefrontal cortex. And so 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:10.200 I was looking into this more uh and I found 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:12.840 even more support for the role of the prefrontal cortex 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:16.920 and inhibiting imp like behaviors, and more evidence that when 0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:20.600 the prefrontal cortex is impaired, inhibition suffers, and we be 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:24.919 we begin to act out transgressive and inappropriate behaviors. So 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:28.439 one study I looked at was called Diagnosis and Management 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:32.320 of Behavioral Issues in front of temporal Dementia by Menu, 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:37.920 Carry and Huey. In current neurology and neuroscience reports from 0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:41.600 and they write that behavioral disinhibition is a classic hallmark 0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:46.080 of the behavioral variant of fronto temporal dementia quote. Within 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.480 the first several years of symptoms, patients can behave contrary 0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:54.520 to social norms. They may inappropriately touch or aggressively approach strangers, 0:26:54.880 --> 0:26:58.520 or even engage in theft or other criminal behaviors. Patients 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:01.920 may also disregard al or social norms to make offensive 0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:06.080 jokes or sexual remarks, encroach on the personal space of others, 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:09.720 and exhibit childish behavior and a general lack of etiquette. 0:27:10.000 --> 0:27:12.919 Disinhibition may also be exhibited in the form of rash 0:27:13.119 --> 0:27:18.200 or impulsive actions like gambling or repeatedly falling for financial scams. 0:27:18.680 --> 0:27:21.879 The largest autopsy confirmed study of b v F t D, 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:26.680 or behavioral variant front of temporal dementia, found seventy six 0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:31.679 percent of patients exhibited behavioral dis disinhibition or impulsivity. So 0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:35.080 it seems like when something happens to this part of 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.280 the brain, when you've got impairment of the front of 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:41.320 temporal area. You see this almost all the time, that 0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:44.760 there is there is a problem with regulating one's behavior, 0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:47.960 and you see people acting out things that they might 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:51.439 think about but wouldn't normally do. And this is all 0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:53.640 quite an impt to consider because again we're getting back 0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:58.000 to the the idea that the choice is kind of 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:01.520 being taken out of our hands, right, Um, in this case, 0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:06.720 it's we're getting down to uh, essentially in a brain injury. Yeah, 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.199 I mean, this kind of thing really always makes me 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:14.040 consider stuff like criminal justice, you know, the the idea 0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:17.640 that um that okay, so we we say we want 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:19.919 to live in a society where people are held accountable 0:28:19.920 --> 0:28:23.040 for their actions, and that that seems to make sense 0:28:23.040 --> 0:28:25.119 to me intuitively. You don't want people to just go 0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:28.199 around wantonly harming other people and getting away with it 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:32.080 and not facing any consequences. But then at the same time, 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:35.560 it's hard to look at stuff like this and and 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.520 think that it really makes sense to punish people for 0:28:38.560 --> 0:28:42.160 their behaviors when our behavior, you know, we can we 0:28:42.200 --> 0:28:45.240 can go out and hurt people because we have a 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:47.600 tumor in a certain part of our brain, or because 0:28:47.640 --> 0:28:51.600 we're experiencing we're experiencing dementia due to old age or 0:28:51.640 --> 0:28:54.040 some kind of brain disease, or because we have a 0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:56.920 head injury, all kinds of physical facts that we would 0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:59.960 agree people are not at all to blame for control 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.840 tribute to them doing things that violate social norms and 0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:07.920 harm other people. And so if that's the case, also 0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:10.720 people didn't I mean pick the brain they were born with. 0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:13.320 Either you didn't, you didn't ask to be born with 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:16.040 a brain that makes you more likely to be aggressive 0:29:16.160 --> 0:29:19.080 or invade people's personal space. And yet then again we 0:29:19.160 --> 0:29:22.320 can't like encourage those behaviors. I don't know it. This 0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:24.200 kind of thing leaves you in a real pickle in 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:28.880 thinking about how to deal with with human misbehavior. Yeah, 0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:31.280 I do feel like a lot of it does, kind 0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:35.640 of uh, you know, spring forth from older ideas about 0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:38.440 you know, in which you know, committing a you know, 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:42.280 an improper act is a is a statement on a 0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:45.520 you know, a pure moral failing. Yeah, um, you know, 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.680 some problem in the soul as opposed to something that 0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:51.480 is you know more that is a medical issue. But 0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:54.400 I was also further wondering about the the idea of 0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:57.479 like impulses and impulse control, because Okay, so we know 0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:00.480 that certain parts of the brain are very corton for 0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:03.600 keeping the imp of the perverse from taking control of 0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:09.200 the wheel, right from the prefrontal cortex, the frontal temporal regions. 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:12.280 These play some kind of major role in inhibition, and 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:14.960 if there's injury to them or something is wrong in there, 0:30:15.440 --> 0:30:19.000 you can suddenly start doing things that you normally would 0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:22.400 stop yourself before acting out. But I wonder about the 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:25.520 first half of the equation, like the urges themselves, Where 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:28.440 do the urges to do the wrong thing come from 0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:30.920 in the first place? In this article I was talking 0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:34.520 about a minute ago, Bruno identifies the orbitofrontal cortex is 0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:37.520 a likely seat of impulses like this, and he he 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:39.640 links this to the way that like tumors in the 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:44.040 orbitofrontal cortex can sometimes cause people to suddenly start engaging 0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:47.280 in criminal behaviors that they never would have before. And 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:51.440 like the the awful history of of frontal lobotomy, you 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:54.800 know that went into the orbitofrontal cortex and severed connections 0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:57.600 in there through the eye socket, and the idea that 0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:02.520 this would reduce aggression and inappropriate behaviors, which it often did, 0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.600 but also just did general damage to people's brains and 0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:08.640 personalities in many cases. And that's a that's a kind 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:12.280 of horrible story in the history of medical neuroscience. Absolutely, 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:15.160 I mean, that's one of the real life horror stories 0:31:15.240 --> 0:31:18.800 kind of circling around all of this. Yeah. But but anyway, 0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:21.440 so I looked this up, and based on all the 0:31:21.520 --> 0:31:24.360 literature I was reading, it also seems like the orbit 0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:27.400 of frontal cortex placed some major role in decision making 0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:32.400 and emotions and behavioral inhibition, such that injuries or tumors 0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:35.720 or degenerative disease in the o f C can lead 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:40.280 to disinhibited behavior. Though I'm no neuroscientists, obviously, but reading around, 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:43.800 I can't see quite exactly the reason that the imp 0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:47.360 would necessarily be there, except to say that, like the 0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:51.200 lateral prefrontal cortex, the orbit orbit of frontal cortex is 0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:56.200 generally important for value based decision making and behavioral control. 0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:59.520 For example, I was looking at a paper in Social 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:03.880 Cognitive of an affective neuroscience by Corpina at all, they 0:32:04.000 --> 0:32:07.239 just found a strange thing that it increases in the 0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:12.440 volume of the prefrontal cortex and intra prefrontal functional connectivity 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:19.080 were related to impulsive and antisocial psychopathic traits. But anyways, 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:22.640 multiple regions of the prefrontal cortex do appear to play 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:26.240 a significant role in the generation of impulses to act 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:29.720 out and in the control and inhibition of those impulses 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:33.080 when we judge them inappropriate. You want to do something bad, 0:32:33.440 --> 0:32:36.080 but you stop yourself from doing that bad thing. A 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:38.440 lot of what's going on there seems to depend on 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:41.360 and happen in the prefrontal cortex. But I guess in 0:32:41.400 --> 0:32:43.719 any of these cases you do have to ask the question, 0:32:44.160 --> 0:32:46.320 is this the imp of the perverse or is this 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:49.880 just a desire for something that you would normally be 0:32:50.000 --> 0:32:52.880 able to inhibit with your with you know, with your 0:32:52.920 --> 0:32:56.200 behavioral control, with your executive function, or is it really 0:32:56.240 --> 0:33:00.320 the perversity that motivates the action in the first place, 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:03.280 Like they're all kinds of things we could do in 0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:08.080 order to get something that is an otherwise normal intrinsic desire. 0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:12.320 People with disinhibition patterns. Violet norms and act inappropriately to 0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:16.240 get food, to get sexual gratification, to get revenge, or 0:33:16.280 --> 0:33:19.240 to get items, they want to express power over people, 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.000 and they're they're good reasons for not doing all these 0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:25.400 things based on our morals, But the underlying motivations to 0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:29.920 do them exist independently. So I wonder what provides the 0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:33.200 impulse to act perversely in the true spirit of the 0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:36.640 post story. Are there cases where we can only understand 0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:40.120 why the brain would act contrary to its awareness of 0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:44.000 norms for the reason that that action is contrary to 0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:49.040 norms with no identifiable other motivation. Cases where the perversity 0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:53.000 is clearly what causes the action in the first place. Fortunately, 0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:56.640 we have a very interesting theory to discuss about where 0:33:56.720 --> 0:33:58.680 a lot of this is coming from. Yeah, so we're 0:33:58.680 --> 0:34:01.240 gonna take one more break. When we them back, we're 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:07.040 going to discuss the ironic process of mental control. Thank alright, 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:09.840 we're back. So, Robert, we're asking the question, have we 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:12.960 ever been able to identify any cases where there is 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:16.080 something like the imp of the perverse where the perversity 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:19.319 of a thought or impulse or action actually does tend 0:34:19.360 --> 0:34:22.520 to cause the brain to favor it. And one place 0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:25.239 we can take this line of thought is to the 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:28.920 Harvard psychology professor Daniel M. Wagner, who passed away in 0:34:30.360 --> 0:34:33.560 but who wrote about this idea of the ironic process 0:34:33.680 --> 0:34:37.279 of mental control. That's right, and he actually begins the 0:34:37.320 --> 0:34:41.160 paper with a passage from Po from them of the perverse. 0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:45.560 But the first paragraph of this paper is just pretty 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:47.759 spot on, I think, and in terms of like sort 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:50.320 of you know, striking a chord with with something that 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:53.719 we can all relate to quote, it sometimes seems that 0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:56.960 our desires to control our minds are met by an 0:34:56.960 --> 0:35:01.200 inordinate measure of failure. Whether we want to stop a worry, 0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:04.520 concentrate on the task, go to sleep, escape a bad mood, 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:08.640 distract ourselves from pain, be humble, relax, avoid prejudice, or 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:12.920 serve yet other mental goals, we find ourselves faltering again 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:15.799 and again. Indeed, our attempts at mental control falls short 0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:19.080 so often then we may stop to wonder, along with Po, 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:21.960 whether there is some part of our minds, an imp 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:25.240 of the perverse, that ironically strives to compel our errors. 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:30.120 The theory of ironic processes of mental control make precisely 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:33.799 this claim, and so in his Ironic process theory which 0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:36.480 he presents in this paper. He argues that quote, the 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:39.520 ironies of mental life or not just happenstance examples of 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:43.280 the frailty of human endeavors, but rather are logically entailed 0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:46.319 by the nature of mental control. So he's arguing that 0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:50.640 the very nature of the way cognition happens tends to 0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:54.680 favor us thinking about things that we're trying not to 0:35:54.719 --> 0:35:58.040 think about. Exactly. Yeah, he's saying that, you know, when 0:35:58.040 --> 0:36:01.520 we attempt to exert mental control via what he refers 0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:04.560 to as the operating process, to fill the mind with 0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:06.840 the desired array of emotions or thoughts, you know, like 0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:08.920 I'm gonna cheer up, where I'm gonna, I'm gonna get 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:11.719 into a calm state of mind, whatever the desires worrying, Yeah, 0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:16.000 I'm gonna stop wearing UM. When we do that, the 0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:19.279 monitoring process kicks in to ask is this the case? 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:21.120 Is this the is this working? Is this how I'm 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:24.720 actually feeling? Um? So it not only searches for failure, 0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:28.480 but quote tends to create the failure. Yes, yeah, so 0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:31.040 that's what he's saying. It's not just that we're not 0:36:31.280 --> 0:36:34.840 very good at controlling the contents of our brains. Often 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:37.799 the attempt to control the contents of our not just 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:41.000 our brains, our minds. The attempt to control the contents 0:36:41.000 --> 0:36:45.759 of our minds backfires spectacularly. Yeah. It's like we're saying, 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:48.279 I would rather not be sad right now. Um, I'm 0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:51.520 gonna go ahead and load happiness, and then the monitoring 0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:54.000 process says, let me check. Nope, you're sad. We're gonna 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:58.560 schedule down for another hour of set. Uh. So this 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:01.040 is this is a wonderful paper. The title is Ironic 0:37:01.080 --> 0:37:05.840 Processes of Mental Control by Daniel M. Vegner W E 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:09.160 G N E R. Published in the Psychological Review in 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:12.279 and if you if you search around, you can you 0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:15.960 can find this one online pretty easily. Um. But he 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:21.440 presents some other individuals work just to support this idea. 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:25.240 One of them is UH is the work of French 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:30.840 chemist Michel Chevroule, and he is UH known for Chevroule's pendulum. 0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:34.560 So he debunked a spiritualist illusion in eighteen thirty three 0:37:34.880 --> 0:37:37.480 in which awaited body suspended by a string from the 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:42.279 fingers was found to oscillate back and forth when concentrated upon. 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:47.600 Similar to this is pretty well, it's the same the 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:49.200 best way to explain it, because I think most of 0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:52.040 us have probably not manipulated this pendulum. But if you've 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:55.040 ever played with Auiji board, well then you have experienced 0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:59.360 the same thing. It is a kinesthetic illusion. The you know, 0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:03.320 the the idea the causation of movement is is occurring 0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:06.800 without the perception of our own conscious muscle movement, also 0:38:06.880 --> 0:38:11.760 known as the ideometer phenomenon, and it's connected to automatic writing, 0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:16.920 to dowsing, and other alleged supernatural acts. Anything that involves 0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:21.120 you not moving something, feeling like you're not moving something, 0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:25.120 but actually moving something. Yeah. Though it also reminds me 0:38:25.360 --> 0:38:29.359 of the psychomotor problem known as target fixation, which I'd 0:38:29.360 --> 0:38:31.720 read about years ago but just recently came to my mind. 0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:34.680 So this is something that occurs in driving and piloting. 0:38:34.880 --> 0:38:37.520 I've read about it primarily with respect to operating a 0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:41.000 motorcycle for some reason. I don't know why a motorcycle specifically, 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:43.960 and not other vehicles. But here's the basic idea. Robert, 0:38:44.120 --> 0:38:47.319 and you're steering a vehicle and you suddenly notice an 0:38:47.320 --> 0:38:50.600 obstacle or threat that you need to avoid, and then 0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:55.000 you steer directly into the obstacle and An example I've 0:38:55.040 --> 0:38:58.000 read about is that say you're on a motorcycle in 0:38:58.040 --> 0:39:01.080 a motorcycle race on a closed track, and then one 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:05.120 cycle veers off the track and crashes. UH. It's apparently, 0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:09.600 in this case not unusual for cycles going along behind 0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:14.879 it to steer off and follow the crashed motorcycle. And 0:39:14.960 --> 0:39:17.400 this is usually described as a panic reflex, Like you 0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:21.000 see an obstacle or crash or something threatening or dangerous, 0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:25.000 and you immediately, because it's threatening and dangerous, focus all 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:27.560 your attention on that thing so as not to run 0:39:27.600 --> 0:39:30.680 into it. But because you focus all your attention on 0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:35.200 that thing, you unconsciously steer your vehicle directly toward it. 0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:39.479 I am curious why this UH is mainly talked about 0:39:39.480 --> 0:39:42.040 with motorcycles and not so much with other motor vehicles. 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:45.279 It could just be that the motorcycles and motorcyclists who 0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:48.000 talk about this are often operating at a faster speed. 0:39:48.120 --> 0:39:49.799 I don't know. It does seem to line up with 0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:52.880 a number of the principles we're talking about here right 0:39:53.080 --> 0:39:57.360 in Vegnar's theory, And now Vegnar also brings up Freud's 0:39:57.400 --> 0:40:00.200 counter will to bring it back to segment freud Um 0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:03.640 Freud's read on what's happening here is that we can't 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:07.000 do the thing we want to do sometimes, uh, as 0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:09.759 if there's another will within us countering the will to 0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:12.440 do the thing. Uh. And he employed this in his 0:40:12.520 --> 0:40:16.880 consideration of hysteria. He also brought up the law of 0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:22.440 reversed effort by Charles Bodwin from and this is kind 0:40:22.480 --> 0:40:25.720 of an early hit on the same ideas of involved 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:29.120 in the ironic process theory, but but in the ironic 0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:32.560 process theory paper, Vegner lays out a model of how 0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:36.560 this goes down, for first with the effortful operating process 0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:39.480 and then the effortless monitoring process. And that's part of 0:40:39.520 --> 0:40:41.399 the maddening thing about it, right, It is like you can, 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:44.680 you can, you can exert so much will to try 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:48.319 and change your mind state, but then the resistance is 0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:51.400 just it's it's it's like it's an alien force that 0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:54.920 has its own reserves of energy to draw on limitless 0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:57.680 even and then he goes on to consider the evidence 0:40:57.719 --> 0:41:05.400 from experiments into movement, prejudice, self presentation, belief, disbelief, sleep, wakefulness, pain. Uh. 0:41:05.440 --> 0:41:07.920 It's it's really a robust paper in this regard, and 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:10.120 he did a bunch of empirical research in this area, 0:41:10.160 --> 0:41:14.080 I mean doing experiments to show directly uh. And in fact, 0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:16.560 in some ways it is not hard to demonstrate. For example, 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:20.000 by asking people to verbalize a stream of consciousness, you 0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:23.160 can find quite easily the people are who are told 0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:25.560 to try hard not to think about something end up 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:28.600 thinking about it a lot. And in this section on 0:41:28.800 --> 0:41:32.560 chronic production of ironic effects, he discusses how all of 0:41:32.560 --> 0:41:35.560 this can potentially lead to a positive feedback loop of 0:41:35.640 --> 0:41:39.319 ironic effects, wearing you down with increased mental load as 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:46.120 everything quote is magnified toward uh, psychopathological extremes um which 0:41:46.440 --> 0:41:49.480 you know, even though you know he's talking about something, 0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:52.160 he's talking about this in the sense that you know 0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:55.200 this is how our minds seem to work. But on 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:58.880 the other hand, this sounds just completely awful. This sounds 0:41:58.920 --> 0:42:01.919 like like a terrible system right where you just keep 0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:04.920 running up against, you know, a potential positive feedback loop 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:08.560 of of you know, increasingly worrisome effects like this. It 0:42:08.600 --> 0:42:11.560 reminds me a lot of you know, of what is 0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:15.839 referred to in psychology as catastrophic thinking, you know, where 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:20.120 you end up obsessing over extreme and or irrational worst 0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:24.600 case scenarios. Yeah, catastrophizing. Yeah, this is a tendency to 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:26.759 always look out for and your loved ones or when 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:28.759 you catch yourself doing it, because I mean, it can 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:31.239 be a sign that something's really wrong with your thought 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:34.520 patterns when you you're always trying to imagine what's the 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:39.680 worst way things could possibly go. Yeah, I mean it 0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:41.920 brings me back again to something we've discussed in the 0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:44.720 show before. You know, we talked about chronosthesia mental time travel, 0:42:45.080 --> 0:42:48.120 all right, as well as theory of mind and uh, 0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:50.200 and how both of these playing in our ability to 0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:54.960 uh sort of run uh simulations of how the future 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:57.920 might go. Uh. And so when we're going into that 0:42:57.960 --> 0:43:02.080 meeting with our boss, you know, we have various simulated 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:05.440 ideas of how things will go. Uh. You know, probably 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:07.560 some that are very reasonable, but then you're gonna have 0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:11.040 some that are extreme. Maybe you're you're overly optimistic, and 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:13.640 there's one that's just a fantasy where you get like, 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:17.840 you know, the the billion dollar raise or something. And 0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:21.319 then there are the ones that are more catastrophic in nature, uh, 0:43:21.640 --> 0:43:24.160 ones that are maybe getting into the territory of the 0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:25.719 the imp of the perverse. What if I look at 0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:27.600 the table or eat a pin, that sort of thing. 0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:31.200 But then aren't we not like wasting our efforts on 0:43:31.239 --> 0:43:35.440 these models when we should be using our mental energy 0:43:35.440 --> 0:43:38.000 towards the models that are more possible. I mean, on 0:43:38.000 --> 0:43:40.360 one hand, yeah, it does seem like it. There is 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:44.120 adaptive value in being able to simulate future events, but 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:47.280 it does seem like we waste a lot of this 0:43:47.760 --> 0:43:51.320 uh potential, we have this ability, we have to simulate 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:56.360 future events in our minds on yeah, just just ruining 0:43:56.360 --> 0:44:00.680 ourselves and ruining our emotional state by obsessing with things 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:03.719 that are not helpful. And yeah, it can be hard 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:07.560 to understand exactly why that happens. Anyway, back to Wagner here, 0:44:07.600 --> 0:44:10.719 he yeah. He ultimately argues that the ironic process theory 0:44:10.719 --> 0:44:13.759 could explain a lot of about our mental control, but 0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:16.600 he also brings it back to the imp saying quote. 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:19.800 The theory also accounts for one further class of effects, 0:44:19.840 --> 0:44:22.799 the class that cries out for explanation and from which 0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:25.800 we often cry out for relief. The theory suggests that 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:29.120 the ironic monitor is responsible for the instances in which 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:32.680 we find that we do, say, think, or feel precisely 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:36.759 what we least intend. Yeah. I mean I think when 0:44:36.840 --> 0:44:39.440 you consider, like the model we were talking about earlier, 0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:43.120 that clearly within the brain there are probably there are 0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:47.120 subsystems for generating impulses to action, and then there are 0:44:47.120 --> 0:44:51.560 other systems that provide inhibitory control. You know, executive function 0:44:51.600 --> 0:44:54.640 of the brain says, to some impulses, no, let's not 0:44:54.760 --> 0:44:58.320 do that. But when there is a when there is 0:44:58.360 --> 0:45:02.400 say a thought that you were repeatedly returning to, especially 0:45:02.480 --> 0:45:05.319 because you're trying to avoid thinking it due to the 0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:08.600 ironic process of mental control, you keep thinking, am I 0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:10.920 not thinking about it? And every time you think that 0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:14.400 you think it that that's bringing it constantly to mind. 0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:17.480 And then if there's ever a failure of inhibition for 0:45:17.560 --> 0:45:20.080 whatever reason, you know, either just a kind of like 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:23.880 momentary glitch or because you've got a neurodegenerative disease or 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:27.680 a tumor or whatever, that impulse generated by the ironic 0:45:27.719 --> 0:45:30.520 process by checking on your own mind to make sure 0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:32.640 you're not thinking about the thing you're not supposed to 0:45:32.640 --> 0:45:35.440 think about, turns into an action. Now all of this 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:40.239 sounds overwhelming really, Uh, Like, OK, I guess the MP 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:42.759 wins like you know that what what can one do 0:45:42.960 --> 0:45:45.800 against this? Uh, this kind of situation? How can we possibly? 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:49.399 It's depressing to think that we would we have such 0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:52.759 a difficulty in in changing our mind state, even though 0:45:52.800 --> 0:45:55.200 we we obviously put a lot of energy into trying 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:57.799 to do so. Um. So it might lead some of 0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:00.520 you to wonder, well, Okay, well what did Wagner have 0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:03.560 to say about this? Did he have any advice for 0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:07.200 dealing with these forces? Yeah? And so Wagner actually gave 0:46:07.239 --> 0:46:10.200 a presentation about the imp of the perverse and about 0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:14.440 thought suppression to the American Psychological Association in two thousand 0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:17.520 eleven where he reviewed his research over his career on 0:46:17.560 --> 0:46:20.680 this subject. And there was an article discussing this presentation 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:23.719 in the A p A Journal by Leah Weinerman uh, 0:46:23.719 --> 0:46:27.000 and it discusses how Wagner said in his presentation that 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:30.160 is clear from the research that attempting not to think 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:33.800 about something not only doesn't work, it makes you more 0:46:33.880 --> 0:46:37.000 likely to think about that thing. But what people always 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.160 want to know is what you're just asking about, Robert. Okay, 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:42.080 if the imp is there, and simply attempting not to 0:46:42.160 --> 0:46:44.200 think about something will make you think about it more 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:47.120 and maybe even make you more likely to do it. Possibly, 0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:50.800 is there anything you can do to defeat the imp 0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:54.240 There does not, unfortunately, appear to be a fool proof method, 0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:57.160 But Wagner laid out several methods that he and his 0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:00.799 colleagues had discovered which had some degrees of success and 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:05.279 empirical support. UH Number one is, instead of trying not 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:07.759 to think about the thing you don't want to think about, 0:47:08.200 --> 0:47:11.839 think about something else. Busy your mind with other contents. 0:47:12.440 --> 0:47:15.280 Wagner and colleagues found in at least one other study 0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:18.560 that when they asked people to think about a red 0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:22.600 Volkswagen instead of a white bear, the people were somewhat 0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:25.200 more successful than when they were just told not to 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:28.239 think of a white bear. Trying not to think about 0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:31.160 something is a losing game. But if you positively think 0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:34.120 about something else instead, then you then you have a 0:47:34.120 --> 0:47:36.560 better chance. And I'd say this is one case where 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:39.520 the empirical research he does seem to line up with UH. 0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:41.640 With I don't know, at least the what seems to 0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:46.200 be reasonable conventional wisdom. Right, you can't just obsess about 0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:49.840 not wanting to feel what you're feeling. You should find 0:47:49.880 --> 0:47:52.720 something to do. Right when you find something to do 0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:56.200 when you find another project, then your mind become sort 0:47:56.200 --> 0:47:59.800 of full of other things rather than just like avoid 0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:02.080 or a vacuum that you're trying to keep the bad 0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:06.440 stuff out of. Next thing he recommends is mentally postpone 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:09.560 unwanted thoughts. I thought this was kind of interesting. Apparently, 0:48:09.600 --> 0:48:12.680 some research has found that if you just give people 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:16.720 a designated period of thirty minutes to worry about something, 0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:19.960 they worry less about it at other times. So if 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:22.879 the imp of the perverse is continually turning your mind 0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:26.600 to an unwanted subject, Wagner suggests telling yourself, I'm going 0:48:26.680 --> 0:48:29.880 to think about that, uh sometime next Wednesday, and I 0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:32.680 won't think about it until then, And somehow this is 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:37.000 actually or at least apparently this is somewhat effective. Another 0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:42.560 strategy he recommends is lighten your mental load or avoid multitasking. Quote. 0:48:42.640 --> 0:48:45.680 One study found that people under increased mental load show 0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:48.920 an increase in the availability of thoughts of death, one 0:48:48.920 --> 0:48:52.399 of the great unwanted thoughts for most people. Uh, though, 0:48:52.440 --> 0:48:54.319 I mean I kind of wonder about this one. I mean, 0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:57.200 this could be seems like it could be resulted distress 0:48:57.320 --> 0:49:00.719 and a lot of different things. Next one apparently is 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:05.160 exposure therapy. You think about the unwanted thought deliberately in 0:49:05.239 --> 0:49:09.280 controlled ways, in controlled settings, and it may become less 0:49:09.320 --> 0:49:13.480 intrusive at other times. And this strikes me as perhaps 0:49:13.560 --> 0:49:17.360 one of the benefits that benefits of something like traditional 0:49:17.400 --> 0:49:21.360 talk therapy. It provides a positive and controlled setting to 0:49:21.520 --> 0:49:25.440 pay attention to unpleasant and unwanted thoughts so that they 0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:30.000 become less persistent and intrusive at other times. And then finally, 0:49:30.040 --> 0:49:33.400 the last one is he recommends mindfulness meditation, learning how 0:49:33.440 --> 0:49:38.400 to manage your attention and consciousness through mindfulness meditation practice. 0:49:38.520 --> 0:49:41.239 That this does appear somewhat helpful, and this makes sense 0:49:41.280 --> 0:49:44.360 to me. If you've never tried mindfulness meditation, it's worth 0:49:44.719 --> 0:49:47.080 I think everybody should try to give it at least 0:49:47.080 --> 0:49:49.680 one shot and see what you think about it. There 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:53.759 are many different kinds of meditation practice. Mindfulness specifically is 0:49:53.800 --> 0:49:58.239 about attention and experience. It's usually done by having an 0:49:58.280 --> 0:50:01.359 object of focus. Your own breath is a common one, 0:50:01.760 --> 0:50:05.960 and you just try to pay intense, unbroken attention to 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:08.279 a thing. Now, of course you will, you know, your 0:50:08.480 --> 0:50:11.600 mind will wander, and then you just sort of continually 0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:15.719 notice your own mental experiences and return your attention to 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:20.040 the object of focus. It tends to make you calmer 0:50:20.040 --> 0:50:24.439 and better at understanding the way your own attention works. Yeah, 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:26.560 and of course what we've we've discussed meditation on the 0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:29.880 show before. Uh So, if if anyone wants, you know, 0:50:29.920 --> 0:50:32.920 a deeper dive into that, certainly look back in the 0:50:33.080 --> 0:50:36.719 archives for this show. But this gives us a little 0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:39.279 bit of hope. It it does provide hopefully we can 0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:42.560 we can close out this episode with some hope for 0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:45.600 all of us dealing with our own personal imps totally 0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:48.480 and especially feel for for me, and I think for 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:51.000 a lot of people these days, their internet imps, the 0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:53.480 internet imps come in at us all the time. I 0:50:53.480 --> 0:50:57.520 feel like our brains are especially vulnerable these days because 0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:01.799 of social media and online headlines and all that. Our 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:05.040 electronic connectedness has made us all the more vulnerable to 0:51:05.880 --> 0:51:10.560 uh to, to impish behavior from the information world. Now, 0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:13.080 in this episode we talked about intrusive thoughts a good bit. 0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:16.200 We talked about, you know, the call of the void, etcetera. 0:51:16.719 --> 0:51:18.840 So I think it is good to to to a 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:21.480 close out by just reminding everybody that if you know, 0:51:21.480 --> 0:51:26.120 if you're dealing with intrusive thoughts of of say suicide. Um, 0:51:26.320 --> 0:51:28.880 you know, a sympathetic ear is only a phone call away. 0:51:28.960 --> 0:51:31.960 In the United States, consider calling the National Suicide Prevention 0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:34.960 Hotline at one eight hundred to seven three, eight to 0:51:35.200 --> 0:51:40.279 five five, and visit UH Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot org 0:51:40.400 --> 0:51:44.279 for additional resources tailored towards general and specific needs, such 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:50.200 as those of youth, disaster survivors, Native Americans, veterans, lost survivors, 0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:53.759 l g B, t Q, and attempt survivors. You'll find 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:57.680 a list of international suicide hotlines at suicide dot org. 0:51:57.840 --> 0:52:00.560 But to close things out on a lighter note, Joe, 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.040 the imp of the perverse? Did you imagine it looking 0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:08.879 like a googley, a gremlin, a hobgoblin, or some other 0:52:09.000 --> 0:52:12.640 cinematic diminutive monster. Oh, the imp of the perverse is 0:52:12.719 --> 0:52:16.000 job of the huts. Little buddy. What's it called? Oh? Yes, 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:20.640 Oh goodness, I'm blanking on his name. Something like a 0:52:21.080 --> 0:52:25.240 little beak dog, Yes, yes, uh, something like scarlets fudge, 0:52:25.480 --> 0:52:28.480 but not scarlets fudge. Why what did you picture? Robert? 0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:31.200 I pictured a hobgoblin from the movie hob Goblins. For sure, 0:52:31.280 --> 0:52:34.440 that's very, very good choice, but a Gremlin or Google 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:37.600 would also be acceptable. I know you're partial to Googley's. Yeah, 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:41.520 I mean Googies are pretty terrifying. Uh that yeah, that's 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:43.880 probably what came to my mind when I first imagined 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:47.280 the MP of the perverse. Alright, so we're gonna close 0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:49.120 it out. If you want to check out more episodes 0:52:49.120 --> 0:52:50.440 of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head on over to 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:52.480 Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mother ship. 0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:55.080 That's where we'll find all the episodes. H and also 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:57.839 be sure to check out our other show, Invention. It's 0:52:57.920 --> 0:53:03.000 an invention by invention. Uh, exploration of human technoe history. 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:05.839 Are you not subscribed to Invention yet? If not, get 0:53:05.880 --> 0:53:08.319 on that go right over. It's called Invention. You can 0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:10.920 get it anywhere you get podcasts. 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