1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Induction. A posteriory would have brought phrenology to admit an 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: innate and primitive principle of human action, a paradoxical something 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: which we may call perverseness for want of a more 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: characteristic term. In the sense I intend, it is in 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: fact a mobile without a motive, a motive not motivert 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: through its promptings we act without comprehensible object or, if 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: this shall be understood as a contradiction in terms, we 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: may so far modify the proposition as to say that, 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: through its promptings we act for the reason that we 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: should not. In theory, no reason can be more unreasonable. 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: But in fact there is none more strong. With certain minds, 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: under certain conditions, it becomes absolutely irresistible. I am not 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: more certain that I breathe than that the assurance of 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: the wrong or error of any action is often the 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: one unconquerable force which impels us, and alone impels us 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: to its prosecution. Nor will this overwhelming tendency to do 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: wrong for the wrong sake admit of analysis or resolution 18 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: into ulterior elements. It is a radical, a primitive impulse, 19 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: elementary welcome to stuff to blow your mind, a production 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios, how stuff works. Hey, you welcome 21 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: to Stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert 22 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And if you recognize that 23 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: opening reading, you must be into the deep cuts of 24 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: Edgar Allan Poe. The story didn't even have him burying 25 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: anybody alive. Yeah, this is This is not like you said. 26 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: This is this is not going to be a hit 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: single from Poe by any means. This is this is 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: more of a deep cut. Uh. You're probably far more 29 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: familiar with the Tell Tale Heart or the Black Cat, 30 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: two stories that contains similar elements, and then we'll touch 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: on later in this episode. Yeah. So this is from 32 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: Edgar Allan poet short story The Imp of the Perverse, 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: And we start with this today because in this short story, 34 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: Poe brings up this concept of the imp of the 35 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: perverse or this, uh, this motive toward perversity, the idea 36 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: of doing something exclusively for the reason that you know 37 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: it should not be done and not for any other reason. 38 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: And in this story the Imp of the Perverse, there 39 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: is actually a murder. You don't get to the murder 40 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: for a while. Poe makes you wait before before any 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: plot there's just this long musing complete with lots of 42 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: references to the pseudoscience of phrenology. But it's amusing on 43 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: this particular impulse of perverseness, the powerful urge to do 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: what we should not and to do it simply for 45 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: the reason that it should not be done. And so 46 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: Pope goes on to analyze this concept throughout the sort 47 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: of s say section of the story. He calls it 48 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: a radical primitive impulse uh, and he contrasts it with 49 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: other types of drives that we have, which he frames 50 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: in terms of the pseudoscience of phrenology. Again, he says 51 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: it's different from mere combativeness because combativeness stems from an 52 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: instinct for self defense. Right, It's rooted in the desire 53 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: to be well and to protect yourself from injury. So 54 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: Poe writes, quote, but in the case of that something 55 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: which I term perverseness, the desire to be well is 56 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: not only not aroused, but a strongly antagonistical sentiment exists. 57 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: So I take that to mean he's trying to make 58 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: clear he's not talking about any kind of self defensive 59 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: combativeness or antagonism, but rather a kind of suicidal antagonism, 60 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: a thwarting of one's own best interests simply because you 61 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: have a desire to do something that you shouldn't do. Now, 62 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: the example that Poe uses here, of course, is one 63 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: that I think most of us can't directly relate to, 64 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: the idea of of of this impulse to confess a 65 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: secret murder that you committed, but the the idea of 66 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: being tempted to do something that you absolutely know you 67 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: shouldn't do, like for for no logical reason interest, right, Like, 68 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: I think we can all relate to that on some level. 69 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: Like I often think about this kind of thing when 70 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: I'm in meetings. If I'm saying, like a one on 71 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: one meeting with my boss, I say it's a you know, 72 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: a performance review or you know, what have you, I'll 73 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: suddenly I'll be sitting there nodding, listening, absorbing the information, 74 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: and then like this random thought will occur, like what 75 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: if I licked the desk right now? But if what 76 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: if I started eating an ink pen, just chewing on it, 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: but just like really uh, you know, showing down on it. 78 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: And I'm not logically tempted to do these things. But 79 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: then once the ideas in my mind, uh, I just 80 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: keep thinking about it. I mean it's different from like, 81 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: they are two very different ways to have a desire 82 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: to say something inappropriate during a meeting with one's boss 83 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: or something. One reason would be, well, maybe you've you know, 84 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: you've got all these kinds of pent up feelings about 85 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: your boss, and you're very angry and you think you've 86 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: been wronged or something like that, and then that would 87 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: be a sort of natural desire to express your feelings 88 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: and rebel against some kind of injustice or get revenge 89 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: by saying what you really think. That would be one thing. 90 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: You're talking about something different and post talking about something 91 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: different when when all those feelings aren't even necessarily they're 92 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: just wanting, having this impulse to say something or do 93 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: something completely inappropriate for no good reason at all. I 94 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about. I often have this 95 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: thought when I'm in like a meeting or you have 96 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: something's going on. Sometimes something just flashes into my head, 97 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: like I could utter the following sentence and it would 98 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: destroy my career, yeah, or or just do you think, like, well, 99 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: what if I, like crab walked out of this meeting 100 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: right now? You know, it wouldn't be that difficult to do, 101 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: and yet it would totally uh, it would it would 102 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: totally change everyone's perceptions of how I, uh, you know, 103 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: how I experience reality and you know, the seriousness with 104 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: which I take my job, that sort of thing. Um 105 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: And and I guess, as as we'll come back to 106 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: in this episode, a lot of it comes down to 107 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: just that that weird dividing line between thought and action. Yeah. Yeah, 108 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: it's almost as if whenever you do this, you're exploring 109 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: what it means to contemplate an action without doing it. 110 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of the same way. It's almost like you're 111 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: feeling the texture of something in those moments where you 112 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: wonder what it would be like to swerve into oncoming 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: traffic or to jump off of a tall ledge. I mean, 114 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: you remember a while back you did an episode with 115 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: Christian about the idea of the call of the void, 116 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: and I think this touches on some similar stuff. Right. 117 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily that people, I mean, people do have 118 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: suicidal ideation that is more deeply rooted in in in 119 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: ongoing problems they have, but there's also just the sort 120 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: of like momentary fleeting impulses that don't even seem to 121 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: be connected to anything larger. Yeah, yeah, that was I 122 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: definitely recommend listeners go back to that episode because we 123 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: touched on not only know how that we get these 124 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 1: ideas in our head, this weird temptation when we're saying, um, 125 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, a top of tall building or on the 126 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: cliff side. But in that episode, I shared how in 127 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: the past I've also felt like this weird feeling like 128 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: I need to press my wallet to the bottom of 129 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: my pocket for fear that I'll take my wallet out 130 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: and say throw it, throw it over the railing of 131 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: the Empire State Building, And you know, which is something 132 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: I definitely don't want to do. But then once the 133 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: idea has entered my head, it does sort of feel 134 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: like I should take steps to keep it from happening. Yeah, 135 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: And you almost feel like you wonder, for a second, 136 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: am I going to be able to stop myself. In 137 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: this long section where Poe talks about the idea of 138 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: peering into an abyss in in the story, he says, quote, 139 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: there is no passion in nature so demoniacally impatient as 140 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: that of him who, shuddering upon the edge of a precipice, 141 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: thus meditates a plunge to indulge for a moment in 142 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: any attempt at thought is not to be inevitably lost 143 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: for reflection, but urges us to forbear. And therefore it 144 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: is I say that we cannot if there be no 145 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: friendly arm to check us, or if we fail in 146 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: a sudden effort to prostrate ourselves backwards from the abyss, 147 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: we plunge and are destroyed. So it's this weird thing 148 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: where he's almost like saying, you've got to depend on 149 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: some kind of part of you to suddenly be the guard. 150 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: What if that part of you the guard, isn't paying 151 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,599 Speaker 1: attention in some moment. I believe I mentioned this in 152 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: the call the Void episode, but stuff like this always 153 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: makes me think of uh. The author Robert Graves his 154 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: partial autobiography Goodbye to All that he talks about his 155 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: experiences in the war, but also of a mountain climbing, 156 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: and if memory serves, there's this one part where he 157 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: talks about climbing scaling these uh you know, these cliff 158 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: sides with some friends and how like the scariest moment 159 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: was when birds were sailing close by and and having 160 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: to sort of wrestle with this this weird illogical feeling 161 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: of love. What have I let go? What if? What 162 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: if like the birds were sort of tempting them with 163 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: this siren song of like, you know, let go and 164 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: fly with us. I don't know if this is inspired 165 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: by that, but I seem to recall a kind of 166 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: stock scene and a lot of cartoons, like Wiley coyote 167 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: type cartoons where a character, often the kind of bumbling, 168 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, prone to injury kind of character, would be 169 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: out over allege on a precipice or on a tight 170 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: rope or something and would be harassed by a bird 171 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: fluttering fluttering around nearby. There's something that does seem to 172 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: go deep about you being vulnerable at the edge and 173 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: then a creature that has powers that you can't just 174 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: floating around as light as a breeze. Oh yeah, I've 175 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: definitely experienced it. Say, standing at the edge of the 176 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon, We're not the edge, several feetback, but still 177 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: watching a bird traverse these to this drastic change in 178 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: elevation with without any issue at all. Now, personally, Robert, 179 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: do you find yourself to be I think the term 180 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: would be criminophobic and having a fear of sharp drop 181 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: offs and precipices. Yeah, at times, Yeah, like we we 182 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: have another episode that we are currently researching and recording 183 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: soon on mountains, and just looking at certain pictures of mountains, 184 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:43,479 Speaker 1: looking at um specifically walkways carved into the sides of mountains, 185 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: at times, they made me cringe a little bit because 186 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: and I could just imagine myself crawling upward down those 187 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: stairs as opposed to you know, walking up and down 188 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: them like a normal pilgrim or something. This is funny 189 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: because I have tons of fears. I'm full of anxieties 190 00:10:58,160 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: about all kinds of things in the world, but not 191 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: this I I do. I'm almost kind of drawn to 192 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: sharp drop offs. I always want to go right up 193 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: to them and look over. Yeah, well, not not me, 194 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: but of course it's always it's always a challenge taking 195 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: a small child to these places because because my son 196 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: he definitely wants to go up and check out the edge, 197 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: and it just that that annurbs me even more. Well, 198 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: I can imagine that would change everything I I my 199 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: whole life. I've had the experience of being told to 200 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: stay away from the edge even now. Yeah, well I 201 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: I had this issue before a kid was in my life, 202 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: for sure, though, it's just the the edge is too close. 203 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: Well anyway, sorry, So to come back to the ed 204 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: Garland post story. Uh, the story goes on to tell 205 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: of how the narrator he goes he gives this long essay, 206 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: this kind of speech about phrenology and about the mp 207 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: of the perverse, and then he tells a very brief 208 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: version of his story, which is that he came up 209 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: with an ingenious plan to get away with murder, and 210 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: the way he did it was he murdered someone with 211 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: a poisoned candlestick because he knew they would light a 212 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: candle to read in bed at night, and so he 213 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: gets away with the murder undetected. But then years later, 214 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: having totally gotten away with it, he is seized with 215 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: this uncontrollable urge to confess in public, which he does 216 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: kind of raving in the middle of a public you know, 217 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: marketplace type area, which of course lands him in chains 218 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: and sentenced to hang for his crime. And that's where 219 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: he is as he tells the story. But the story 220 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: itself might not be all that remarkable as far as 221 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: post stories go, but it does bring up this interesting 222 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: idea personifies this imp of the perverse, the idea of 223 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: wanting to do something simply because it is something that 224 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: should not be done, either like morally, you know, maybe 225 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: it's a violation of norms, or because it's against one's 226 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: own interest. That there's just some compelling force telling you 227 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: not to do it, and that's the very reason you 228 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: can't stop thinking about doing it. Yeah. I mentioned the 229 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: tell Tale Heart earlier, and I think that's that's I 230 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: think most would agree that's probably a better story that 231 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: deals with with with with a very similar premise. The idea, 232 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: of course, and that if you haven't read it, is 233 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 1: that this guy killed an old man and buried him 234 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: under the boards, and is what is living room. I 235 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: believe the police come to ask questions and he just 236 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: hears the thumping of the heart until it drives him bonkers, 237 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: and he just starts pulling up the boards right or 238 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: or or telling the the investigators like, look, he's under there, 239 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: pull up the boards. I killed him, and his you know, 240 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: his heart is beating um uh. And in that he's 241 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: dealing with the imp of the perverse as well, manifested 242 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: as this this nagging beating heart. Now, it's been a 243 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: while since I've read The tell Tale Heart. Maybe you 244 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: can answer this better than I, um, do you think 245 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: that does guilt play a role in that story? Is 246 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: he guilty for about what he has done and is 247 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: a feeling of guilt driving him towards his confession, or 248 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: is it more like the imp of the perverse where 249 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: he doesn't even seem to feel bad about it, He's 250 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: just got this urged to tell Well, you know, it's 251 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: been a once since I've read it, or I remember 252 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: seeing like a stage adaptation of it as as a kid. Uh, 253 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: it's been a while since i've I've I've interacted with either, 254 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: but I remember I used to think it was more 255 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: the guilt issue, because that seems like the the obvious trope, right, 256 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: the idea that you're you're just you've done this horrible thing, 257 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: and the weight of the thing you've done eventually pulls 258 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: out the confession. But having become acquainted with the imp 259 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: of the perverse now, which which I've before reached researching 260 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: this episode I was not familiar with, I think it 261 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: really makes me realize that Poe was probably thinking about 262 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: other ideas here, and he was dealing with something a 263 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: little more complicated in the human mind as opposed to 264 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: this more cliched Uh. Imbalancing in the human heart. So 265 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: maybe his his urge to confess was not a moral 266 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: urge but more just kind of uh, the imp of 267 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: the perverse, it was a neuroticism. Yeah, So one thing 268 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: I think about, especially given all the references to phrenology 269 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: in this post. Sorry, I guess you know, before you 270 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: had psychology, you had pseudoscience like phrenology, And it makes 271 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: me think about me, you know, what's the kind of 272 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: bridge between these two worlds, you know, getting getting to 273 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: modern psychology, and that makes me go to Freudian is Um. 274 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if your brain kind of goes to 275 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: the same place there, but I mean you see echoes 276 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: of things like the imp of the perverse in the 277 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: writings in the psychoanalysis style of Freud, right, where he 278 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: talked about things like a death drive or or a 279 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: death instinct. Right, And would that be sort of related? Yeah, 280 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: I believe so, and I've and I found you know, 281 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: a few authors that have chimed in on this. So 282 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: Sigmund Freud, just to refresh it, lived eighteen fifty six 283 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: through nine nine, and he's best remembered for his work 284 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: on the unconscious mind, but he also theorized about the 285 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: role of powerful instincts that energize the mind. And these 286 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: instincts are numerous and varied, but he grouped them into 287 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: two main categories. There's aros uh the the life instinct, 288 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: and then there's Thanatos, the death instinct. And these names, 289 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: of course refer to the Greek mythological gods of life 290 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: and death. So the sexual influence of the libido only 291 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: concerns only connects directly to the instincts of aros of 292 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: One of the instincts of Thanatos focus on aggression, self destruction, 293 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: and cruelty. So I think it would be reasonable to 294 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,119 Speaker 1: situate the imp of the reverse within the Freudian instinct 295 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: family of Thanatos. Now, I was looking around for papers 296 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: on this and I found a really good one from 297 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: Laura Lai Carraman, and she explored this in a two 298 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen paper titled the Urge to tell Versus the 299 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: need to conceal confession as narrative desire, impose the black Cat, 300 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: the tail, tale Heart, and the imp of the Perverse, 301 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: And this was published in American and British Studies Annual, 302 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: and as the title indicates, um the author Karaman points 303 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: out that that Poe considered the drive to confess in 304 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: not only The Imp but also in the more well 305 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: known Black Cat and the tell Tale Heart quote. What 306 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: is noteworthy is the nature of these confessions, their inexplicable, 307 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: irrational quality, as if driven by a certain kind of 308 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: urgency by a foreseemingly independent of their will. If the 309 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: crimes committed appear more or less calculated, their confessions, by contrast, 310 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: are almost unaccountably impulsive. That's yeah, that's totally accurate to 311 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: the actual writing of the story, the imp of the perverse. 312 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean, the author is cold and calculating and psychopathic 313 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: about the crime. You know, he thinks it through, he 314 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: plans it out, he doesn't appear to feel bad about it. 315 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: But then the can the desire to confess comes on 316 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: as just this kind of like obsession from out of 317 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: nowhere that he can't keep his mouth closed. He's running 318 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: around thinking I'm about to blurt it out, and then does. Yeah. 319 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: In this paper, the author points out that the past critics, 320 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: such as Author Brown and Henry Sussman, have taken you know, 321 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: all of this apart, with the latter Sussmen pointing out 322 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: that the actor can of confession in these tales is 323 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: a quote transgression of the boundaries between the private and 324 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: the public kind of way. Again, that that that gray 325 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: line between thought and action of essence. Um. So you know, 326 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: in these stories we see something that exists in the 327 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: mind leaking out. Uh, you know, the desire to tell 328 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: overpowers the desire for concealment. Um. Well, you know, one 329 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: thing I wonder about with the references to phrenology in 330 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: the story is that in the nineteenth century there could 331 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: easily have been anxieties about the idea of an emerging 332 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: science of the mind. Do you ever think about this 333 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: like that? You're so a person always has their private thoughts, 334 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: their thoughts or their own or maybe there between them 335 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: and the god they believe in or whatever, but their 336 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: private in some way other people can't know about them. 337 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: But I wonder if you live in a world where 338 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: there are all these burgeoning sciences, and the sciences are 339 00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: increasingly uh, intruding into domains like light and you know, 340 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: in the social sciences and the mind itself, and you know, 341 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: the emerging fields like psychology, you have to start to wonder, 342 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: will people be able to read my mind with these sciences? 343 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: Is there is there going to be a diminution of 344 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: the private privilege with one's own thoughts? How Yeah, when 345 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: we see this kind of anxiety reflected in so many 346 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: works of science fiction over the years, you know, the 347 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: idea of of thought police, um, you know, determining what 348 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: what's going on inside your head, of of passing through 349 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: that boundary between action and thought. I was, in fact 350 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: just reading a Peter Watts short story about this very topic. Um. 351 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: But but but in these stories, something that Carmen point 352 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: points out and drives home and referencing the work of 353 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: these other um scholars, is that, you know, it's ultimately 354 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: it's not as simple as oh, this character is mad 355 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: well and that's why they did their crime and or 356 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: blurted it out, but that there's something going on in 357 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: the unconscious that is by definition unreadable. And that's the 358 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: ultimate spooky, scary, mysterious part. That there's something, uh, there's 359 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: something going on in there, that there are these contradictory 360 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: drives in the subconscious and uh, and we don't really 361 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: know what to expect from them. Well, yeah, I can 362 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: see this story situated again in kind of a bridge 363 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: land between an old model that might often like an 364 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: old model of the mind that might have often said, 365 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: if you have drives or desires that don't feel like yours, 366 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 1: that's a demon, you know, like that you could actually 367 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: have the devil whispering in your ear, that it's an 368 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: imp you know. And there then you've got devil possession 369 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: and all that. And then you've got this, uh, this 370 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: new way of thinking about things where where well, maybe 371 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: you don't consciously understand all of your own drives and 372 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: desires and motivations. Yeah, absolutely, um, you know, and all 373 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: of this I can't help but think back to Um. 374 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: I can't remember the exact biblical whole passage, but the 375 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: basic idea that you see reflected in a lot of 376 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: Christian theology that um, if you do something in your heart, 377 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: it is is it is as if you did it 378 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: in real life, as if you actually committed the act. 379 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: And um again like even that without getting into kind 380 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: of like the you know, the theological discourse on it, 381 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: that's kind of dealing in this this this thin line 382 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: or this time seemingly thin line between thought and action, 383 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: between contemplation of theological and and the you know, and 384 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: committing the illogical. Yeah, and in in that whole thing. 385 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I can see arguments on on both sides 386 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: of the whole like if you are whoever has felt 387 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: wrath against his brother has committed murder in his heart. 388 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: On one hand, I mean, that seems like that's kind 389 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: of almost kind of a very bad lesson to teach people, 390 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: right like that, you know, it's it's just as bad 391 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: to think about doing something bad as it is to 392 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: actually do it. It kind of blurs the line of 393 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: like resistance to evil, right, and especially as we proceed 394 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: through the there's this episode, we're going to get into 395 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: some areas where it really shows how problematic that is. 396 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: Because I don't think that, you know, try to think 397 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: something else. But I mean it does highlights even if 398 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: we can say that's maybe bad advice, it does highlight something. 399 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: And what it highlights is that, um, you know, if 400 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: you allow yourself to contemplate something that you know you 401 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: should not do a lot, you may very well wear 402 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: down your resistance to doing it right. All right, Well, 403 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: on that note, let's let's take a quick break and 404 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: when we come back, we will chase the imp a 405 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: little bit more through this subconscious than Thank alright, we're back, 406 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: So We've been discussing this idea of the imp of 407 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: the perverse that comes from this Ed Garland post short 408 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: story from the eighteen forties, where there is this strong 409 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: impulse to do something just because you shouldn't do it 410 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: and not for other reasons. So I was reading an 411 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: article about this in Psychology today by Meal Bruno, who 412 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: is a professor at u PEN, and it brought up 413 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: a few interesting things. So this article tells an interesting 414 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: story about the imp and inhibition and neuroscience. And the 415 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: story starts when Bruno was in graduate school and he 416 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: talks about how he witnessed a neuropathology examination of a 417 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: deceased patient. And so a neuropathology examination involves cutting open 418 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: the brain and examining it and figuring out, you know it, 419 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: was there any damaged tissues or a neural degeneration. And 420 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: also present at this examination was a social worker who 421 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: had known the patient before he died. And so the 422 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: autopsy revealed degeneration in the prefrontal cortex, especially of the 423 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: dorso lateral prefrontal cortex. And this is the outer part 424 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: of the brain, starting above the temples and sort of 425 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: reaching up onto the outside of the forehead, and Bruno 426 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: mentions that this area is important for cognitive control. I 427 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: was reading about its role in cognition and behavior, and 428 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: it's generally believed to have a lot to do with 429 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: many different kinds of executive function. This includes things like 430 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: selective attention, choosing what to pay attention to and what 431 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: to think about, things like working memory and meta memory. 432 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: So meta memory is the cognitive management of memories, like 433 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: judging whether a particular memory is relevant or correct. But 434 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: this area also appears to have things to do with planning, 435 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: with regulating and overriding emotions, and crucially with inhibition. And 436 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: the management of inhibition also appears to be a major 437 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: function of the prefrontal cortex in general, which remember, showed 438 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: damage all over in this patient. So because of this 439 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: physical neuropathology, the doctor performing the autopsy asked the man's 440 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: social worker if he had had any issues with impulsiveness 441 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: and control, and the social workers said yes. In fact, 442 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: later in life, this man had repeatedly had a problem 443 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: with jumping out of moving cars. Jumping out of moving cars, 444 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: and I thought that's really interesting because that's not just 445 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: something like, you know, taking food out of somebody's hand. 446 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: Or or sexually inappropriate behavior, things that are certainly wrong, 447 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: but that you can see how disinhibition would allow just 448 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: sort of natural urges that people have otherwise to to 449 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: come out without being mediated by the thought I shouldn't 450 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: do that. With jumping out of moving cars, you have 451 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: to wonder more like, where does that urge come from 452 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: to begin with? And in fact, this kind of thing 453 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: is more common than we might normally imagine. Berno himself 454 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: rights that quote. Fifty seven percent of people with fronto 455 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: temporal dementia, which is neural degeneration that targets the frontal 456 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: and temporal lobes violate social norms, engaging in sexual transgressions 457 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: and public nudity, shoplifting in front of store managers, eating 458 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: out of the trash. It is common knowledge in the 459 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: field of neuroscience now that these behaviors are due to 460 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: a problem of disinhibition because of a deterioration of the 461 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: cognitive control network of the lateral prefrontal cortex. And so 462 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: I was looking into this more uh and I found 463 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: even more support for the role of the prefrontal cortex 464 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: and inhibiting imp like behaviors, and more evidence that when 465 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: the prefrontal cortex is impaired, inhibition suffers, and we be 466 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: we begin to act out transgressive and inappropriate behaviors. So 467 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: one study I looked at was called Diagnosis and Management 468 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: of Behavioral Issues in front of temporal Dementia by Menu, 469 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: Carry and Huey. In current neurology and neuroscience reports from 470 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: and they write that behavioral disinhibition is a classic hallmark 471 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: of the behavioral variant of fronto temporal dementia quote. Within 472 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: the first several years of symptoms, patients can behave contrary 473 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: to social norms. They may inappropriately touch or aggressively approach strangers, 474 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: or even engage in theft or other criminal behaviors. Patients 475 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: may also disregard al or social norms to make offensive 476 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: jokes or sexual remarks, encroach on the personal space of others, 477 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: and exhibit childish behavior and a general lack of etiquette. 478 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: Disinhibition may also be exhibited in the form of rash 479 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: or impulsive actions like gambling or repeatedly falling for financial scams. 480 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: The largest autopsy confirmed study of b v F t D, 481 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: or behavioral variant front of temporal dementia, found seventy six 482 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: percent of patients exhibited behavioral dis disinhibition or impulsivity. So 483 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: it seems like when something happens to this part of 484 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: the brain, when you've got impairment of the front of 485 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: temporal area. You see this almost all the time, that 486 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: there is there is a problem with regulating one's behavior, 487 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: and you see people acting out things that they might 488 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: think about but wouldn't normally do. And this is all 489 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: quite an impt to consider because again we're getting back 490 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: to the the idea that the choice is kind of 491 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: being taken out of our hands, right, Um, in this case, 492 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: it's we're getting down to uh, essentially in a brain injury. Yeah, 493 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: I mean, this kind of thing really always makes me 494 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: consider stuff like criminal justice, you know, the the idea 495 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: that um that okay, so we we say we want 496 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: to live in a society where people are held accountable 497 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: for their actions, and that that seems to make sense 498 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: to me intuitively. You don't want people to just go 499 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: around wantonly harming other people and getting away with it 500 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: and not facing any consequences. But then at the same time, 501 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: it's hard to look at stuff like this and and 502 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: think that it really makes sense to punish people for 503 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: their behaviors when our behavior, you know, we can we 504 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: can go out and hurt people because we have a 505 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: tumor in a certain part of our brain, or because 506 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: we're experiencing we're experiencing dementia due to old age or 507 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: some kind of brain disease, or because we have a 508 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: head injury, all kinds of physical facts that we would 509 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: agree people are not at all to blame for control 510 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: tribute to them doing things that violate social norms and 511 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: harm other people. And so if that's the case, also 512 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: people didn't I mean pick the brain they were born with. 513 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: Either you didn't, you didn't ask to be born with 514 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: a brain that makes you more likely to be aggressive 515 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: or invade people's personal space. And yet then again we 516 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: can't like encourage those behaviors. I don't know it. This 517 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing leaves you in a real pickle in 518 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: thinking about how to deal with with human misbehavior. Yeah, 519 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: I do feel like a lot of it does, kind 520 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, spring forth from older ideas about 521 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: you know, in which you know, committing a you know, 522 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: an improper act is a is a statement on a 523 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, a pure moral failing. Yeah, um, you know, 524 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: some problem in the soul as opposed to something that 525 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: is you know more that is a medical issue. But 526 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: I was also further wondering about the the idea of 527 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 1: like impulses and impulse control, because Okay, so we know 528 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: that certain parts of the brain are very corton for 529 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: keeping the imp of the perverse from taking control of 530 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: the wheel, right from the prefrontal cortex, the frontal temporal regions. 531 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: These play some kind of major role in inhibition, and 532 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: if there's injury to them or something is wrong in there, 533 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: you can suddenly start doing things that you normally would 534 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: stop yourself before acting out. But I wonder about the 535 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: first half of the equation, like the urges themselves, Where 536 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: do the urges to do the wrong thing come from 537 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: in the first place? In this article I was talking 538 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: about a minute ago, Bruno identifies the orbitofrontal cortex is 539 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: a likely seat of impulses like this, and he he 540 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: links this to the way that like tumors in the 541 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: orbitofrontal cortex can sometimes cause people to suddenly start engaging 542 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: in criminal behaviors that they never would have before. And 543 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: like the the awful history of of frontal lobotomy, you 544 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: know that went into the orbitofrontal cortex and severed connections 545 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: in there through the eye socket, and the idea that 546 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: this would reduce aggression and inappropriate behaviors, which it often did, 547 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: but also just did general damage to people's brains and 548 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: personalities in many cases. And that's a that's a kind 549 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: of horrible story in the history of medical neuroscience. Absolutely, 550 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the real life horror stories 551 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: kind of circling around all of this. Yeah. But but anyway, 552 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: so I looked this up, and based on all the 553 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: literature I was reading, it also seems like the orbit 554 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: of frontal cortex placed some major role in decision making 555 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: and emotions and behavioral inhibition, such that injuries or tumors 556 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: or degenerative disease in the o f C can lead 557 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: to disinhibited behavior. Though I'm no neuroscientists, obviously, but reading around, 558 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: I can't see quite exactly the reason that the imp 559 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: would necessarily be there, except to say that, like the 560 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: lateral prefrontal cortex, the orbit orbit of frontal cortex is 561 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: generally important for value based decision making and behavioral control. 562 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: For example, I was looking at a paper in Social 563 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Cognitive of an affective neuroscience by Corpina at all, they 564 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 1: just found a strange thing that it increases in the 565 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: volume of the prefrontal cortex and intra prefrontal functional connectivity 566 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: were related to impulsive and antisocial psychopathic traits. But anyways, 567 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: multiple regions of the prefrontal cortex do appear to play 568 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: a significant role in the generation of impulses to act 569 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: out and in the control and inhibition of those impulses 570 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: when we judge them inappropriate. You want to do something bad, 571 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: but you stop yourself from doing that bad thing. A 572 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: lot of what's going on there seems to depend on 573 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: and happen in the prefrontal cortex. But I guess in 574 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,719 Speaker 1: any of these cases you do have to ask the question, 575 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: is this the imp of the perverse or is this 576 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: just a desire for something that you would normally be 577 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: able to inhibit with your with you know, with your 578 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: behavioral control, with your executive function, or is it really 579 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: the perversity that motivates the action in the first place, 580 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: Like they're all kinds of things we could do in 581 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: order to get something that is an otherwise normal intrinsic desire. 582 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: People with disinhibition patterns. Violet norms and act inappropriately to 583 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: get food, to get sexual gratification, to get revenge, or 584 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: to get items, they want to express power over people, 585 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: and they're they're good reasons for not doing all these 586 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: things based on our morals, But the underlying motivations to 587 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: do them exist independently. So I wonder what provides the 588 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: impulse to act perversely in the true spirit of the 589 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: post story. Are there cases where we can only understand 590 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: why the brain would act contrary to its awareness of 591 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: norms for the reason that that action is contrary to 592 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: norms with no identifiable other motivation. Cases where the perversity 593 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: is clearly what causes the action in the first place. Fortunately, 594 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: we have a very interesting theory to discuss about where 595 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: a lot of this is coming from. Yeah, so we're 596 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: gonna take one more break. When we them back, we're 597 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: going to discuss the ironic process of mental control. Thank alright, 598 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: we're back. So, Robert, we're asking the question, have we 599 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: ever been able to identify any cases where there is 600 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: something like the imp of the perverse where the perversity 601 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: of a thought or impulse or action actually does tend 602 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: to cause the brain to favor it. And one place 603 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: we can take this line of thought is to the 604 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: Harvard psychology professor Daniel M. Wagner, who passed away in 605 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: but who wrote about this idea of the ironic process 606 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: of mental control. That's right, and he actually begins the 607 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: paper with a passage from Po from them of the perverse. 608 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: But the first paragraph of this paper is just pretty 609 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: spot on, I think, and in terms of like sort 610 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: of you know, striking a chord with with something that 611 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: we can all relate to quote, it sometimes seems that 612 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: our desires to control our minds are met by an 613 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: inordinate measure of failure. Whether we want to stop a worry, 614 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: concentrate on the task, go to sleep, escape a bad mood, 615 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: distract ourselves from pain, be humble, relax, avoid prejudice, or 616 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: serve yet other mental goals, we find ourselves faltering again 617 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: and again. Indeed, our attempts at mental control falls short 618 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: so often then we may stop to wonder, along with Po, 619 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: whether there is some part of our minds, an imp 620 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: of the perverse, that ironically strives to compel our errors. 621 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: The theory of ironic processes of mental control make precisely 622 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: this claim, and so in his Ironic process theory which 623 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: he presents in this paper. He argues that quote, the 624 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: ironies of mental life or not just happenstance examples of 625 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: the frailty of human endeavors, but rather are logically entailed 626 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: by the nature of mental control. So he's arguing that 627 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: the very nature of the way cognition happens tends to 628 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: favor us thinking about things that we're trying not to 629 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: think about. Exactly. Yeah, he's saying that, you know, when 630 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: we attempt to exert mental control via what he refers 631 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: to as the operating process, to fill the mind with 632 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: the desired array of emotions or thoughts, you know, like 633 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna cheer up, where I'm gonna, I'm gonna get 634 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: into a calm state of mind, whatever the desires worrying, Yeah, 635 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop wearing UM. When we do that, the 636 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: monitoring process kicks in to ask is this the case? 637 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: Is this the is this working? Is this how I'm 638 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: actually feeling? Um? So it not only searches for failure, 639 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: but quote tends to create the failure. Yes, yeah, so 640 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: that's what he's saying. It's not just that we're not 641 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: very good at controlling the contents of our brains. Often 642 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: the attempt to control the contents of our not just 643 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: our brains, our minds. The attempt to control the contents 644 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: of our minds backfires spectacularly. Yeah. It's like we're saying, 645 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: I would rather not be sad right now. Um, I'm 646 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and load happiness, and then the monitoring 647 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: process says, let me check. Nope, you're sad. We're gonna 648 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: schedule down for another hour of set. Uh. So this 649 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: is this is a wonderful paper. The title is Ironic 650 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: Processes of Mental Control by Daniel M. Vegner W E 651 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: G N E R. Published in the Psychological Review in 652 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: and if you if you search around, you can you 653 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: can find this one online pretty easily. Um. But he 654 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: presents some other individuals work just to support this idea. 655 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: One of them is UH is the work of French 656 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: chemist Michel Chevroule, and he is UH known for Chevroule's pendulum. 657 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: So he debunked a spiritualist illusion in eighteen thirty three 658 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: in which awaited body suspended by a string from the 659 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: fingers was found to oscillate back and forth when concentrated upon. 660 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: Similar to this is pretty well, it's the same the 661 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: best way to explain it, because I think most of 662 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: us have probably not manipulated this pendulum. But if you've 663 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: ever played with Auiji board, well then you have experienced 664 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: the same thing. It is a kinesthetic illusion. The you know, 665 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: the the idea the causation of movement is is occurring 666 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: without the perception of our own conscious muscle movement, also 667 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: known as the ideometer phenomenon, and it's connected to automatic writing, 668 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: to dowsing, and other alleged supernatural acts. Anything that involves 669 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: you not moving something, feeling like you're not moving something, 670 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: but actually moving something. Yeah. Though it also reminds me 671 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: of the psychomotor problem known as target fixation, which I'd 672 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 1: read about years ago but just recently came to my mind. 673 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: So this is something that occurs in driving and piloting. 674 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: I've read about it primarily with respect to operating a 675 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: motorcycle for some reason. I don't know why a motorcycle specifically, 676 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: and not other vehicles. But here's the basic idea. Robert, 677 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: and you're steering a vehicle and you suddenly notice an 678 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: obstacle or threat that you need to avoid, and then 679 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: you steer directly into the obstacle and An example I've 680 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: read about is that say you're on a motorcycle in 681 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: a motorcycle race on a closed track, and then one 682 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: cycle veers off the track and crashes. UH. It's apparently, 683 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: in this case not unusual for cycles going along behind 684 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 1: it to steer off and follow the crashed motorcycle. And 685 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: this is usually described as a panic reflex, Like you 686 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: see an obstacle or crash or something threatening or dangerous, 687 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: and you immediately, because it's threatening and dangerous, focus all 688 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: your attention on that thing so as not to run 689 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: into it. But because you focus all your attention on 690 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: that thing, you unconsciously steer your vehicle directly toward it. 691 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,479 Speaker 1: I am curious why this UH is mainly talked about 692 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: with motorcycles and not so much with other motor vehicles. 693 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: It could just be that the motorcycles and motorcyclists who 694 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: talk about this are often operating at a faster speed. 695 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: I don't know. It does seem to line up with 696 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: a number of the principles we're talking about here right 697 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: in Vegnar's theory, And now Vegnar also brings up Freud's 698 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: counter will to bring it back to segment freud Um 699 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: Freud's read on what's happening here is that we can't 700 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: do the thing we want to do sometimes, uh, as 701 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: if there's another will within us countering the will to 702 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: do the thing. Uh. And he employed this in his 703 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: consideration of hysteria. He also brought up the law of 704 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: reversed effort by Charles Bodwin from and this is kind 705 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,720 Speaker 1: of an early hit on the same ideas of involved 706 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: in the ironic process theory, but but in the ironic 707 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: process theory paper, Vegner lays out a model of how 708 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: this goes down, for first with the effortful operating process 709 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: and then the effortless monitoring process. And that's part of 710 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 1: the maddening thing about it, right, It is like you can, 711 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: you can, you can exert so much will to try 712 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: and change your mind state, but then the resistance is 713 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: just it's it's it's like it's an alien force that 714 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: has its own reserves of energy to draw on limitless 715 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: even and then he goes on to consider the evidence 716 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: from experiments into movement, prejudice, self presentation, belief, disbelief, sleep, wakefulness, pain. Uh. 717 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: It's it's really a robust paper in this regard, and 718 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: he did a bunch of empirical research in this area, 719 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: I mean doing experiments to show directly uh. And in fact, 720 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: in some ways it is not hard to demonstrate. For example, 721 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: by asking people to verbalize a stream of consciousness, you 722 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: can find quite easily the people are who are told 723 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: to try hard not to think about something end up 724 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: thinking about it a lot. And in this section on 725 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: chronic production of ironic effects, he discusses how all of 726 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: this can potentially lead to a positive feedback loop of 727 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: ironic effects, wearing you down with increased mental load as 728 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: everything quote is magnified toward uh, psychopathological extremes um which 729 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, even though you know he's talking about something, 730 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: he's talking about this in the sense that you know 731 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: this is how our minds seem to work. But on 732 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: the other hand, this sounds just completely awful. This sounds 733 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,919 Speaker 1: like like a terrible system right where you just keep 734 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: running up against, you know, a potential positive feedback loop 735 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: of of you know, increasingly worrisome effects like this. It 736 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of you know, of what is 737 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 1: referred to in psychology as catastrophic thinking, you know, where 738 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: you end up obsessing over extreme and or irrational worst 739 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: case scenarios. Yeah, catastrophizing. Yeah, this is a tendency to 740 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: always look out for and your loved ones or when 741 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: you catch yourself doing it, because I mean, it can 742 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: be a sign that something's really wrong with your thought 743 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: patterns when you you're always trying to imagine what's the 744 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: worst way things could possibly go. Yeah, I mean it 745 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: brings me back again to something we've discussed in the 746 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: show before. You know, we talked about chronosthesia mental time travel, 747 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: all right, as well as theory of mind and uh, 748 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: and how both of these playing in our ability to 749 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: uh sort of run uh simulations of how the future 750 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: might go. Uh. And so when we're going into that 751 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: meeting with our boss, you know, we have various simulated 752 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: ideas of how things will go. Uh. You know, probably 753 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: some that are very reasonable, but then you're gonna have 754 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: some that are extreme. Maybe you're you're overly optimistic, and 755 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: there's one that's just a fantasy where you get like, 756 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, the the billion dollar raise or something. And 757 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: then there are the ones that are more catastrophic in nature, uh, 758 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: ones that are maybe getting into the territory of the 759 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: the imp of the perverse. What if I look at 760 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: the table or eat a pin, that sort of thing. 761 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: But then aren't we not like wasting our efforts on 762 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: these models when we should be using our mental energy 763 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: towards the models that are more possible. I mean, on 764 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: one hand, yeah, it does seem like it. There is 765 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: adaptive value in being able to simulate future events, but 766 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 1: it does seem like we waste a lot of this 767 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: uh potential, we have this ability, we have to simulate 768 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: future events in our minds on yeah, just just ruining 769 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: ourselves and ruining our emotional state by obsessing with things 770 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: that are not helpful. And yeah, it can be hard 771 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: to understand exactly why that happens. Anyway, back to Wagner here, 772 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: he yeah. He ultimately argues that the ironic process theory 773 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: could explain a lot of about our mental control, but 774 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: he also brings it back to the imp saying quote. 775 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 1: The theory also accounts for one further class of effects, 776 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: the class that cries out for explanation and from which 777 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 1: we often cry out for relief. The theory suggests that 778 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: the ironic monitor is responsible for the instances in which 779 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: we find that we do, say, think, or feel precisely 780 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: what we least intend. Yeah. I mean I think when 781 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: you consider, like the model we were talking about earlier, 782 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: that clearly within the brain there are probably there are 783 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: subsystems for generating impulses to action, and then there are 784 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: other systems that provide inhibitory control. You know, executive function 785 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: of the brain says, to some impulses, no, let's not 786 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: do that. But when there is a when there is 787 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: say a thought that you were repeatedly returning to, especially 788 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,319 Speaker 1: because you're trying to avoid thinking it due to the 789 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: ironic process of mental control, you keep thinking, am I 790 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: not thinking about it? And every time you think that 791 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: you think it that that's bringing it constantly to mind. 792 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: And then if there's ever a failure of inhibition for 793 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: whatever reason, you know, either just a kind of like 794 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: momentary glitch or because you've got a neurodegenerative disease or 795 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: a tumor or whatever, that impulse generated by the ironic 796 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: process by checking on your own mind to make sure 797 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: you're not thinking about the thing you're not supposed to 798 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: think about, turns into an action. Now all of this 799 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: sounds overwhelming really, Uh, Like, OK, I guess the MP 800 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: wins like you know that what what can one do 801 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 1: against this? Uh, this kind of situation? How can we possibly? 802 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 1: It's depressing to think that we would we have such 803 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: a difficulty in in changing our mind state, even though 804 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: we we obviously put a lot of energy into trying 805 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: to do so. Um. So it might lead some of 806 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: you to wonder, well, Okay, well what did Wagner have 807 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 1: to say about this? Did he have any advice for 808 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: dealing with these forces? Yeah? And so Wagner actually gave 809 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: a presentation about the imp of the perverse and about 810 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: thought suppression to the American Psychological Association in two thousand 811 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: eleven where he reviewed his research over his career on 812 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: this subject. And there was an article discussing this presentation 813 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: in the A p A Journal by Leah Weinerman uh, 814 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: and it discusses how Wagner said in his presentation that 815 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: is clear from the research that attempting not to think 816 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,800 Speaker 1: about something not only doesn't work, it makes you more 817 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: likely to think about that thing. But what people always 818 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: want to know is what you're just asking about, Robert. Okay, 819 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: if the imp is there, and simply attempting not to 820 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: think about something will make you think about it more 821 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: and maybe even make you more likely to do it. Possibly, 822 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: is there anything you can do to defeat the imp 823 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,240 Speaker 1: There does not, unfortunately, appear to be a fool proof method, 824 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: But Wagner laid out several methods that he and his 825 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,799 Speaker 1: colleagues had discovered which had some degrees of success and 826 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: empirical support. UH Number one is, instead of trying not 827 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: to think about the thing you don't want to think about, 828 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,839 Speaker 1: think about something else. Busy your mind with other contents. 829 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,280 Speaker 1: Wagner and colleagues found in at least one other study 830 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: that when they asked people to think about a red 831 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: Volkswagen instead of a white bear, the people were somewhat 832 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: more successful than when they were just told not to 833 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: think of a white bear. Trying not to think about 834 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: something is a losing game. But if you positively think 835 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: about something else instead, then you then you have a 836 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: better chance. And I'd say this is one case where 837 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: the empirical research he does seem to line up with UH. 838 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: With I don't know, at least the what seems to 839 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: be reasonable conventional wisdom. Right, you can't just obsess about 840 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,840 Speaker 1: not wanting to feel what you're feeling. You should find 841 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,720 Speaker 1: something to do. Right when you find something to do 842 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: when you find another project, then your mind become sort 843 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 1: of full of other things rather than just like avoid 844 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 1: or a vacuum that you're trying to keep the bad 845 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 1: stuff out of. Next thing he recommends is mentally postpone 846 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: unwanted thoughts. I thought this was kind of interesting. Apparently, 847 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: some research has found that if you just give people 848 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,720 Speaker 1: a designated period of thirty minutes to worry about something, 849 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: they worry less about it at other times. So if 850 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,879 Speaker 1: the imp of the perverse is continually turning your mind 851 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: to an unwanted subject, Wagner suggests telling yourself, I'm going 852 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: to think about that, uh sometime next Wednesday, and I 853 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: won't think about it until then, And somehow this is 854 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: actually or at least apparently this is somewhat effective. Another 855 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: strategy he recommends is lighten your mental load or avoid multitasking. Quote. 856 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 1: One study found that people under increased mental load show 857 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 1: an increase in the availability of thoughts of death, one 858 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,399 Speaker 1: of the great unwanted thoughts for most people. Uh, though, 859 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 1: I mean I kind of wonder about this one. I mean, 860 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 1: this could be seems like it could be resulted distress 861 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: and a lot of different things. Next one apparently is 862 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: exposure therapy. You think about the unwanted thought deliberately in 863 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,280 Speaker 1: controlled ways, in controlled settings, and it may become less 864 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: intrusive at other times. And this strikes me as perhaps 865 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 1: one of the benefits that benefits of something like traditional 866 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,360 Speaker 1: talk therapy. It provides a positive and controlled setting to 867 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: pay attention to unpleasant and unwanted thoughts so that they 868 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:30,000 Speaker 1: become less persistent and intrusive at other times. And then finally, 869 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,400 Speaker 1: the last one is he recommends mindfulness meditation, learning how 870 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: to manage your attention and consciousness through mindfulness meditation practice. 871 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,239 Speaker 1: That this does appear somewhat helpful, and this makes sense 872 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 1: to me. If you've never tried mindfulness meditation, it's worth 873 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: I think everybody should try to give it at least 874 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: one shot and see what you think about it. There 875 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,759 Speaker 1: are many different kinds of meditation practice. Mindfulness specifically is 876 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: about attention and experience. It's usually done by having an 877 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 1: object of focus. Your own breath is a common one, 878 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: and you just try to pay intense, unbroken attention to 879 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 1: a thing. Now, of course you will, you know, your 880 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: mind will wander, and then you just sort of continually 881 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,719 Speaker 1: notice your own mental experiences and return your attention to 882 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 1: the object of focus. It tends to make you calmer 883 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:24,439 Speaker 1: and better at understanding the way your own attention works. Yeah, 884 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: and of course what we've we've discussed meditation on the 885 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 1: show before. Uh So, if if anyone wants, you know, 886 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,920 Speaker 1: a deeper dive into that, certainly look back in the 887 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: archives for this show. But this gives us a little 888 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 1: bit of hope. It it does provide hopefully we can 889 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: we can close out this episode with some hope for 890 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: all of us dealing with our own personal imps totally 891 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,480 Speaker 1: and especially feel for for me, and I think for 892 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people these days, their internet imps, the 893 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: internet imps come in at us all the time. I 894 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: feel like our brains are especially vulnerable these days because 895 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,799 Speaker 1: of social media and online headlines and all that. Our 896 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: electronic connectedness has made us all the more vulnerable to 897 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 1: uh to, to impish behavior from the information world. Now, 898 00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: in this episode we talked about intrusive thoughts a good bit. 899 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: We talked about, you know, the call of the void, etcetera. 900 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 1: So I think it is good to to to a 901 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,480 Speaker 1: close out by just reminding everybody that if you know, 902 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: if you're dealing with intrusive thoughts of of say suicide. Um, 903 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, a sympathetic ear is only a phone call away. 904 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: In the United States, consider calling the National Suicide Prevention 905 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 1: Hotline at one eight hundred to seven three, eight to 906 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: five five, and visit UH Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot org 907 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,279 Speaker 1: for additional resources tailored towards general and specific needs, such 908 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: as those of youth, disaster survivors, Native Americans, veterans, lost survivors, 909 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,759 Speaker 1: l g B, t Q, and attempt survivors. You'll find 910 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 1: a list of international suicide hotlines at suicide dot org. 911 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: But to close things out on a lighter note, Joe, 912 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 1: the imp of the perverse? Did you imagine it looking 913 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,879 Speaker 1: like a googley, a gremlin, a hobgoblin, or some other 914 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 1: cinematic diminutive monster. Oh, the imp of the perverse is 915 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,000 Speaker 1: job of the huts. Little buddy. What's it called? Oh? Yes, 916 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,640 Speaker 1: Oh goodness, I'm blanking on his name. Something like a 917 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:25,240 Speaker 1: little beak dog, Yes, yes, uh, something like scarlets fudge, 918 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 1: but not scarlets fudge. Why what did you picture? Robert? 919 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: I pictured a hobgoblin from the movie hob Goblins. For sure, 920 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,440 Speaker 1: that's very, very good choice, but a Gremlin or Google 921 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 1: would also be acceptable. I know you're partial to Googley's. Yeah, 922 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 1: I mean Googies are pretty terrifying. Uh that yeah, that's 923 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,880 Speaker 1: probably what came to my mind when I first imagined 924 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,280 Speaker 1: the MP of the perverse. Alright, so we're gonna close 925 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: it out. If you want to check out more episodes 926 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,440 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head on over to 927 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mother ship. 928 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,080 Speaker 1: That's where we'll find all the episodes. H and also 929 00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,839 Speaker 1: be sure to check out our other show, Invention. It's 930 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 1: an invention by invention. Uh, exploration of human technoe history. 931 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,839 Speaker 1: Are you not subscribed to Invention yet? If not, get 932 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,319 Speaker 1: on that go right over. It's called Invention. You can 933 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,920 Speaker 1: get it anywhere you get podcasts. Go and subscribe now. 934 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,960 Speaker 1: If you like this show, we think you'll love that one. 935 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,960 Speaker 1: So anyway, huge thanks to our excellent audio producers Alex 936 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 1: Williams and Tor Harrison. If you would like to get 937 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,880 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 938 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,360 Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or 939 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 940 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:42,719 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot Com. Stuff to 941 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,719 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's How 942 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 1: Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 943 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,080 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 944 00:53:50,120 --> 00:54:04,720 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Bist proper