1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Websett's Podcast. My 2 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: guest today is Dennis McNally, who has a new book, 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: The Last Great Dream, How Bohemians became Hippies and created 4 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: the Sixties. Dennis, why this book? 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: Why now? 6 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 3: I find myself, you know, in my age as apparently 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 3: the self appointed historian of the counterculture in America since 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 3: World War Two. I did books on Kerouac and The 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 3: Grateful Dead and the sort of the deeper background of 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 3: it all, and then I sort of paused, and in 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen I was invited to curate a photo show 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 3: about the Summer of Love for the California Historical Society. 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: Every museum in the Bay Area was going wild over, 14 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 3: you know, celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Summer of Love. 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: So I started on that. I started with the beats 16 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 3: and sort of started poking around. It was it was 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 3: it was a treasure hunt, really, and it was great fun. 18 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: And after a few months I went, this is a book. 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 3: This is the origins of the sixties, of what we 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 3: think of as the sixties, which is in considerable part 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 3: starts starts in the Haye Ashbury. Although it has kindred 22 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 3: spirits in many places, specifically la New York and London, 23 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 3: which is what I studied. 24 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 2: Okay, some of the similar vintages you but many people 25 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: were not alive at the sixties. What do people not 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: get about how the sixties really were? 27 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 3: The media, you know, there's a fascinating article by a 28 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 3: guy named Hendrik Hertzberg, who would turn out to be 29 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 3: the writer for The New Yorker and a very distinguished guy, 30 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: and he probably he was a beat reporter for Newsweek 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 3: in the late sixties, and he the went to the 32 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 3: Haye Ashbury quite early, and for whatever reason, it's a 33 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 3: brilliant article. And if news We could actually run it 34 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: instead of what they ended up doing, because of course 35 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: different people write, and he was just a traveling reporter, 36 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: they would have had the best thing ever written about 37 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: the hate. Because what happened was the media after the 38 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 3: BN which exploded the whole story with an enormous turnout 39 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 3: in Golden Gate Park in January of sixty seven. The 40 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 3: media descended on the hate, and unfortunately, these are people 41 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 3: who basically couldn't see past what they saw, which was flowers, 42 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 3: unusual people, stoned people, and they couldn't see the basically 43 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 3: spiritual and anti material aspects of that culture and how 44 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: it had all sort of ended up in the music. 45 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: And all they knew was these people were weird and 46 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 3: they didn't understand them, and that's the way they wrote 47 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 3: about them. And that's really lasted many years. I teach 48 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: a high occasionally go and lecture high school class that 49 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 3: focuses on the sixties. And the point I keep trying 50 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 3: to make to these students, because they're fascinated with the sixties. 51 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: Now a few of them, you know, have hippie parents 52 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: or just you know, some fascination with like the music 53 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 3: little you know, young deadheads for instance. But what I 54 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 3: keep trying to emphasize with them is, in my opinion 55 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 3: that the reason they're interested in the sixties is that 56 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: it's never gone away the issues that were raised, whether 57 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 3: it's organic food or Asian studies or sexual you know, 58 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 3: the whole idea of the gentle male hippie, which evolved 59 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 3: into gay liberal into a welcoming gays to San Francisco 60 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 3: in the seventies. And you know, now with the issue 61 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 3: is trans people, what we have actually is, you know, 62 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 3: an exact reversal of those values with the values of 63 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 3: the president administration, which you have to remember. One of 64 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 3: the side effects of the Hayde Ashbury and the free 65 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: speech movement and the Wats rebellion was the election of 66 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: Ronald Reagan as governor in nineteen sixty six and then 67 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: president in nineteen eighty. And from Reagan to Trump is 68 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: you know, pretty much a direct line of resistance to 69 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: the sixties. That's really, you know, to some extent, what 70 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 3: it's about. 71 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: Okay, what was in the water in California? Why did 72 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: this started in California? 73 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: San Francisco is the only city in America. New Orleans 74 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 3: is slightly different for the reason that it was a 75 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 3: colonial city and it's just different. But San Francisco is 76 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 3: the only cities evolved as economic institutions. You know, people 77 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 3: come together and they do business. But San Francisco as 78 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: a city was created by frankly, slightly crazy people who 79 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 3: were not fitting in with their world on the East Coast, 80 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 3: or in Chile or in China, and they came to 81 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: San Francisco on a gamble and they were gambling on gold, 82 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: of course, and it left this ethos that even though 83 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: you know, it became a city and it had a 84 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: conventional political structure and churches and normal you know, superficial 85 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 3: normal things. But it left a heritage of tolerance for 86 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: craziness that is unique in American in American cities, the 87 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: example being a man named Emperor Norton. Norton had been, uh, 88 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 3: went crazy basically after he went busted in the stock market, 89 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 3: and he dubbed himself Emperor Norton and then proceeded to 90 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 3: print up Emperor Norton banknotes. Now, you know, every city 91 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 3: has its crazies, and and you know there's no great 92 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: surprise in that. But what is different about San Francisco 93 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 3: was that the bartenders and the restaurant people in San 94 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 3: Francisco accepted these clearly not real dollars and fed him 95 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: out of admiration for his craziness. That's the only way 96 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: I can explain it. And and that's just something that's 97 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: always been a little part of San Francis. 98 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: When did Emperor Norton live. 99 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: In the eighteen sixties and seventies. 100 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: Okay, eighteen sixties, seventies, the beginning of the century, there's 101 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: an earthquake. You're saying that this ethos pre dates all 102 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: of this, It really starts around the time of the 103 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: gold Rush. 104 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's just you know, there's a quote in my 105 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 3: book from Robert Duncan, one of the poets I studied, 106 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: that talks about San Francisco is the Western edge of dreams. 107 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: You know, it's you start talking about geography, and it 108 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,679 Speaker 3: gets a little mystical, and some people get very nervous. 109 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 3: But the fact is that San Francisco, you know, so 110 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: called Western civilization, which were theoretically least part of starts 111 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 3: in generally around Europe, Europe and the Middle East, and 112 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: proceeds west, and it gets across America, and it gets 113 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: to the Pacific, and it, you know, stops in the sense, 114 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 3: and San Francisco was the edge, and in fact, from 115 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 3: the beginning looked west to Asia just as almost just 116 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 3: as much as it did back east to you know, 117 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: Boston and New York and the centers of American so 118 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 3: called civilization. 119 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: Okay, you talked about the roots being in San Francisco, 120 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: Los Angeles, in New York. Let's stay in California for 121 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 2: a second. What was going on in Los Angeles? 122 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 3: Los Angeless is somewhat different from San Francisco. As I say, 123 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 3: the tolerance for crazy, well, it came out different, and 124 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 3: Los Angeles unusually did not have this big tradition. I 125 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: mean it was founded by Roman Catholic priests, of course, 126 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: and then around the turn of the century and heading 127 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 3: toward the era when Hollywood sort of brought many people 128 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 3: to Los Angeles, it did not have that tradition. But 129 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: what it did have, and I don't particularly have an 130 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 3: explanation for it, is an openness to unusual religions, so 131 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 3: that theosophy prospered there. They brought in I've just gone 132 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:28,359 Speaker 3: blank on his name. Do to Christian Murdy, who they 133 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: decided was the new Jesus. He said, nah, I'm just 134 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: a teacher. But stayed in Los Angeles and they're all kinds, 135 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: you know, esoteric occult astrology. Joseph Campbell, the great historian 136 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 3: of art, came to San Francisco, I mean Los Angeles 137 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: in the thirties and was bemoaning the fact that everybody 138 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 3: in Los Angeles seemed to be into astrology, which he 139 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 3: regarded with some reserve, shall we say. And you know, 140 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: so there was this this receptiveness and then what happened eventually, Uh, 141 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: and the most interesting for me, other than for instance, 142 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 3: the the the music world, which Los Angeles contributed John 143 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 3: Cage to the world. And uh, but the the main 144 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:29,599 Speaker 3: line of cultural transference was in art. Los Angeles immediately 145 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: immediately became in a narrow way. I mean, it wasn't 146 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: like it was in the Los Angeles times. But the 147 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: fact is that that modern art, uh and abstract expressionism 148 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 3: and then later pop art, you know, it just came 149 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: straight out of Los Angeles. Andie Warhol's first show was 150 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: in Los Angeles, and there was a receptiveness to to 151 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 3: experimental art that Los Angeles, Uh, you know gave really 152 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 3: gave the United States. 153 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: Now you talk about third point of the triangle in 154 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 2: New York. How does New York figure into your sixties thesis? 155 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, New York was the capital of freethinking in America, 156 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 3: at least since Walt Whitman, you know, held court at Fafts, 157 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 3: which was this bar in the Bowery, which is to say, 158 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: just on the edge of Greenwich Village. And for whatever reason, 159 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 3: Greenwich Village became the home of freethinking from really the beginning, 160 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 3: in particular the beginning of the twentieth century and through 161 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 3: what they call it the introduction of modernism in American 162 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 3: art and literature, and there was the Masses and Robert 163 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 3: Eastman and all kinds of things. Mabel Dodge Lewin was 164 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 3: doing peyote in the village in nineteen teens before she 165 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 3: and d Lawrence moved out to uh to Santa Fe 166 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: or Taos, I should say, and you know, there's there's 167 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 3: always been this, you know, froth the the hippie specific 168 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 3: hippie thing was tricked to me. The the catalyst, the 169 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: trigger of it was LSD. 170 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: But before before, before you get there, okay, so we 171 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: have the landscape, the ground is tilled with all of 172 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: this craziness, insight, astrology, different thinking. When does it start 173 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: to Germany? You know, you talk about Norton in the 174 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,599 Speaker 2: eighteen sixties. When did these things start to flower? Is 175 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: it all as we say, post war, post World War two? 176 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: Is it before that? When does it start to coalesce? 177 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 2: We not coalesced. When did it start to germinate? 178 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: Well, that's a very good question. I would say it 179 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 3: started to germinate again in the introduction of the modern 180 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: to an openness, to a culture that was not explicitly 181 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 3: Christian for instance, that was you know that anticipated a 182 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: certain looseness and freedom that runs into the rest of 183 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 3: the twentieth century. By the you know, one of the elements, 184 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 3: for instance, in an important element ethical element in the 185 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 3: scene of Greenwich Village was Dorothy Day and the Catholic Workers, 186 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: and that started in the thirties, for instance, again as 187 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 3: a conscious communal attempt. She had started out as a 188 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 3: left wing socialist and then decided that it just it 189 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: lacked soul. She adopted Catholicism, but was concerned that the 190 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: Church did not have enough social concerns for you know, 191 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: the the less privileged, and created the Catholic Workers, which 192 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 3: had a real impact in the Greenish village, particularly in 193 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: their pacifism. But yet so it germinates in various strands. 194 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: Before World War Two, but you have this devastating depression 195 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 3: which you know, people generally speaking it was more important 196 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 3: to survive than to try and create something new in 197 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: many ways during the thirties. Then you have this complete 198 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: unified effort during World War two in which everyone whether 199 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 3: it was women going to you know, work in factories 200 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 3: or boy scouts collecting newspapers for you know, recycling dribes. 201 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: Everyone was rationed sugar and meat and tires and whatnot. 202 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 3: So you have this unified effort against fascism. And then 203 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 3: what happens is we get to the end of World 204 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: War Two and we should be you know cha la lah, 205 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 3: a happy day, except that we're immediately in a Cold War. 206 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: And the problem with the Cold War is that a 207 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: lot of Americans said, wait a minute, you know, we 208 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: fought this war. We deserve you know, we deserve a win. 209 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: What is this with, you know, continuing yet another war. 210 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 3: And the problem is that rather than accept that, hey, 211 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 3: eighteen million Soviet people died in that war, you know, 212 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: they have their reasons for doing what they're doing. There 213 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 3: was a large trend towards blaming internal flaws in the 214 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: American resistance, which is to say, the Roosevelt administration, and 215 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: they called it communism. They say, oh, there must be communists, 216 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 3: there must be a We all know now that sometimes 217 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 3: people will grab a conspiracy theory as a more satisfying 218 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: answer to why things are the way they are, rather 219 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 3: than saying, well, the objective forces of history look at this. 220 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: Of course they're you know, going to resist the Soviets. 221 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: So anyway, you end up with what we call McCarthyism. 222 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 3: Except it was a great deal more than than Joe McCarthy, 223 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 3: and uh so there's this incredible repression and and uh, 224 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: you know, intolerance of any deviating viewpoint, in particular sexual. 225 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: I mean, a great deal of the of the the 226 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: government attacks on on, you know, so called investigating so 227 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: called disloyal people ended up being about gay people and 228 00:16:54,200 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: about anybody. That nudism was considered subversive. And it literally 229 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 3: it's in the law that Eisenhower passed or his executive order. 230 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: So and then on top of all that, you have 231 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 3: this incredible burst again after the depression of prosperity during 232 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 3: the fifties, and everybody's you know, gobbling up their prosperity, 233 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 3: and you know, you can't blame them, but the price 234 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 3: of that prosperity was silence. You know, don't don't push it, 235 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 3: don't challenge things. I was interviewing Michael McClure, the beat poet, 236 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 3: and I said, you know, why did on the Road howl? 237 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: But howl in a more rarefied way, because it's one 238 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty people heard it. First. On the Road 239 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 3: was this best seller, and you know, a whole raft 240 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: of people, starting with Janis Joplin, David Bowie, Bob Dylan 241 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 3: and Jerry Garcia just as examples of sixties. We people 242 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 3: we associate with sixties read Kerouac and went, yes, this 243 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 3: is a world I want to be part of. And 244 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 3: it was basically about spiritual freedom, about looseness, about exploring 245 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 3: rather than conforming. And it had this incredible impact. So 246 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 3: I interviewed Michael mclaur and I said, why did this 247 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 3: book have such a powerful influence. I read it and 248 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 3: I like it and it's important to me. But and 249 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 3: he just looked at me. I was young, and he 250 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 3: looked at me and he said, Dennis, did you live 251 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: in the fifties? And I said, well, you know, I 252 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 3: was ten when they ended, so I kind of sort 253 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 3: of but not. And he went, well, if you had, 254 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 3: you'd understand why. It just it was radical, and you know, 255 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 3: it was denounced by the right, and it had the 256 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: extraordinary good fortune of having its first great review, its 257 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 3: first review, you it's important review done not by the 258 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: main critic of the New York Times, a guy named 259 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:12,719 Speaker 3: Orville Prescott, nicknamed Prissy, who would have lunched it, and 260 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 3: instead by a young editor who was very interested in 261 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: this stuff named Gilbert milsted it's one of the discovering 262 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 3: him was one of the the uh the great successes 263 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 3: of my research on Kerouac, because nobody had talked to 264 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 3: him before, and that was you know that he was 265 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 3: open to it, and he wrote a review that that 266 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 3: said that On the Road was the fifties version of 267 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: The Sun Also Rises, and you know it's never stopped 268 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: since God only knows how many copies it'd sold. 269 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 2: Okay, in your book, you talk about the poets Kenneth 270 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: rex Roth, Lawrence Ferlingetti. How does that end up in 271 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: San France, Cisco, and how does that Germany? 272 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 3: If you decide that you're going to be a poet 273 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 3: and you're not at an academic institution, you right away 274 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 3: put yourself outside normal culture because you're not going to 275 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 3: make any money and you're going to have to, you know, 276 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:24,239 Speaker 3: find a way to preserve your voice. Rex Roth, I 277 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 3: start the book, you know, when I was doing that 278 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 3: photo curation, I had started with the obvious, which was 279 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 3: how and which was in nineteen fifty five. But how 280 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 3: and Allen Ginsberg, who was of course an import from 281 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 3: New York, along with Grolengetty, all came into San Francisco 282 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 3: in the mid fifties that had already had a really 283 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: thriving poetry scene. It was sort of led because he 284 00:20:54,840 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 3: literally had he had salons classes in two things, poetry 285 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 3: and anarchism, various flavors of anarchism, and anarchism not as 286 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 3: throwing rocks or bombs or whatever, but anarchism as in 287 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 3: freedom of thought. And that, you know, that's rex Roft's 288 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 3: fundamental connection. So when I went to start the book 289 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 3: as a book, I decided that the connection of rex 290 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 3: Roth and Robert Duncan, who was raised by theosophists and 291 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:33,479 Speaker 3: occultists and various you know, mystic, very mystical family, he 292 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 3: brought in again an openness to shall we say, the mysterious, 293 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: and together they generated a scene that quickly included Philip Lamontilla. 294 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 3: It was very interesting pairing because of course Duncan was 295 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 3: very gay, to the extent that he had literally outed 296 00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: himself in nineteen forty four, which is remarkable, ended up, 297 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 3: which resulted in him being basically completely ignored by the 298 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: Eastern literary establishment for the rest of his life. That 299 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 3: that's just simply seemed seemed to revolt people on the 300 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 3: East Coast. It didn't bother anybody in San Francisco. Interestingly, 301 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: Rexcroft was you know, occasionally periodically homophobic, and somehow it 302 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 3: didn't matter to him at any rate. They together, they 303 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: sort of stirred up this interest in in poetry that 304 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 3: led to you know, many other poets, James Brown and 305 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 3: Helen Adam and all kinds of people, and there was 306 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: this very active poetry scene and it was all about poetry, 307 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 3: to oversimplify, but poetry that came from the heart, that 308 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 3: was that was individual, individually focused. At that point, the 309 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 3: the new critics that dominated American poetry, mostly from the 310 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 3: East Coast, basically prized uh, precision, irony, distance, lack of emotion, 311 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: all the kinds of things that San Franciscans, the San 312 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 3: Francisco poets said now and among other things, it was 313 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 3: in San Francisco was poetry made to be read out 314 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 3: loud and performed, and they, you know, poetry readings became 315 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: a standard feature of San Francisco poetry. That message or 316 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 3: that you know, that that that practice that the poets developed, spread, 317 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 3: among other things, to the students at what was then 318 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: called the California School of Fine Arts and later the 319 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 3: San Francisco Art Institute and students there in particular, started 320 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 3: as the fifties went along, spreading that message in their 321 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 3: own lives. The classic example of that is a guy 322 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 3: named Wally Hedrick. Wally Hedrick was a student at CSFA 323 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 3: and then eventually taught there and became a very distinguished 324 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 3: assemblage what they called funk Art that was, you know, 325 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 3: associated was the beat painting or in his case, metalwork 326 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 3: version of poetry in nineteen fifty eight. To skip ahead, 327 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: but really, in some ways the crux of my whole book, 328 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 3: you know, you can talk about it is he's teaching. 329 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 3: Wally is teaching at the Institute what was going to 330 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 3: become the Institute Saturday class to high school students, and 331 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 3: one of his students was a young man named Jerry Garcia. 332 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 3: And one of the things that Wally did in his 333 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 3: classes was play acoustic blues like Big Bill Brunsi and such, 334 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 3: which resulted in Jerry Garcia. When he got an accordion 335 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 3: for his birthday that year, Piston moaned and cried and 336 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 3: told his mother, no, no, no, it has to be a guitar, 337 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 3: and you know it, and there he went for the 338 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 3: rest of his life. But at the same time, he 339 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 3: and his buddies said, because remember this is nineteen fifty eight, 340 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 3: this is you know, current bestseller, front page news and 341 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 3: top of the bestseller list. He said, what is this 342 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 3: beat thing? You know we keep reading about it. And 343 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 3: Wally replied, you're a beat. Go down a City Lights, 344 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 3: get this book and you know, on the road and 345 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 3: you know you'll see. And he did, and it was 346 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 3: his bible for the really for the rest of his life. 347 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: His role model, carok was his role model. Which is 348 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 3: why thirty years later or twenty years later, whenever it 349 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: was that I popped up, I sent him a copy 350 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 3: of my biography of Kdillac and he eventually turned to 351 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 3: me and said, why don't you do us? And I said, 352 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 3: good idea. And that led me into the next stage. 353 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 3: I had already sort of been adet head, and that 354 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 3: led me to this next stage after the Beats, which 355 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 3: was hippies and the Grateful Dead. 356 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 2: Okay, you mentioned City Lights, which opens in nineteen fifty 357 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 2: three in Los Angeles. There are issues with the government 358 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: and there are riots downtown. If you were not downtown 359 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 2: and there wasn't a newspaper, you would have no idea 360 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: this was happening. When City lights opened to what did 361 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: we was the general population aware of this? And was 362 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: Jerry Garcia just lucky he was in the right place 363 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: at the right time taking this class or was this 364 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: in the water such that other people were flowering at 365 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: the same time. 366 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 3: It was kind of in the water, but it was 367 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 3: also you know, luck, but not just look, Jerry Garcia 368 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 3: was consciously sort of skeptical of the conventional culture and 369 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 3: as a paint again, as a paint if you identify 370 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 3: yourself as an artist, poet or artist paint or whatever, 371 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: you automatic you automatically, you know, challenge conventional norms. I mean, 372 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: you know, you're you're you're looking for a different path. 373 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 3: And he he Uh so it wasn't just luck that 374 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 3: he popped up in that in that classroom. Uh, but uh, 375 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 3: it was important, of course that that Fri Lnghetti who 376 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 3: took over city lights from a guy named Peter Martin 377 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 3: and made it what it was that you know, he 378 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 3: he got he was a trained poet. I mean he 379 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 3: had gone to he had gotten his doctorate at the 380 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 3: Sorbonne after World War Two on the GI Bill, and uh, 381 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 3: he gets he wants to live in a city that 382 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 3: that has some soul. That's that's what he said. And 383 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,239 Speaker 3: he took it through the train to San Francisco and 384 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 3: immediately went Yes, he said, he found again a poetry 385 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 3: culture that was what he said, provincial but liberating. And 386 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 3: he created a clubhouse, you know, a social gathering like 387 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 3: the Beats or or you know, any hippies later needs 388 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 3: physical institutions to get, you know, to gather around. And 389 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 3: for for the Beats, it was city lights and then 390 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 3: a bar called The Place on Grant Avenue, and things flowered, 391 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 3: people connected, and you know, how people find these directions 392 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 3: these paths is one of those eternal questions that you 393 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 3: have to ask each individual. And unfortunately nobody was going 394 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 3: around saying, so why are you here in those days. 395 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 3: It's a pity. Speaking as a historian, I would have 396 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 3: loved to have come across that research. 397 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: But okay, you mentioned, let's get back to LSD. How 398 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: does LSD start and permeate the culture and why in 399 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:29,719 Speaker 2: San Francisco. 400 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 3: The first introduction in any significant way into American culture 401 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: of psychedelics, and it was originally psilocybin, and which is 402 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 3: a derivative from peyote, but you know, so organic in 403 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 3: that sense, versus LSD, which is sort of you know, 404 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: laboratory created was of course from la and that was 405 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 3: Aldos Huxley's The Doors of Perception. Aldus Huxley had left 406 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 3: England fleeing World War two and come to Los Angeles 407 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 3: for two reasons. One was that openness to alternative religion, 408 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 3: which he was quite aware of, and he studied with 409 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 3: Vedanta and a lot of stuff like that, and also 410 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 3: the weather. Frankly, you know, it's a pleasant change from 411 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 3: from London. And eventually but he was, you know, again 412 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 3: an omnivorous seeker. And he read an article by a 413 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 3: guy named Humphrey Osmond who was doing very sane, sober 414 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 3: research on the effect of psychedelics and alcoholism in edmund 415 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: Don't ask me why, but Edmonton, Canada, and he wrote 416 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 3: an article. Huxley read it and said, you know, at 417 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 3: that time they largely called psychedelics, and in particular when 418 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 3: they got to LSD, uh psychoto neumenic which means imitating schizophrenia, 419 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 3: that they thought it duplicated when people tripping were duplicating schizophrenia. 420 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 3: And Osmond said, no, no, no, you know that that's 421 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 3: probably not fair. How about psychedelic and he created the 422 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 3: term psychedelic, which means mind manifesting. You know, whatever's there 423 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: is gonna, you know, be shown to you in the 424 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 3: course of your your experience. And Ousley said, I mean, 425 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: Huxley said, bring it. And OsmAnd came to Los Angeles 426 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 3: for a conference and brought some mescaline with him, which 427 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 3: is psilocybin, and he took it, and being Huxley immediately 428 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 3: wrote a small book about it called The Doors of Perception, 429 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 3: which is really the first sort of message and to 430 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 3: anybody he's sort of exploring these sorts of issues in 431 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 3: America that there's this thing. Now. During the fifties, the 432 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 3: use of CIA was largely controlled by the CIA. They 433 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: had a program and this is not conspiracy theory, you know, 434 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 3: it's it's it's well documented history. They had thought that 435 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 3: it might be a really good truth stroke, which turned 436 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 3: out not to be. So, you know, you it revealed 437 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 3: all you could never figure out what, you know, what 438 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 3: was literal and what was you know, imaginary. But they 439 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 3: there were experimenters, and they used to a combinate a 440 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 3: network of psychologists and various strange people, a lot of 441 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 3: strange people that grafted themselves onto the psychedelic earliest psychedelic. 442 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 3: There was a guy named Captain L. Hubbard, who, among 443 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 3: other things, turned on some you know, was was involved 444 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 3: with introducing LSD to Henry Luce. Okay, Henry Luce was 445 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 3: the owner of Time magazine, a very you know, big deal, 446 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 3: and he and his wife they lost their daughter and 447 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: in her sorrow missus Luce Claire Claire Booth Loose reached 448 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 3: out to various people, including one of Huxley's friends, Gerald Hurd, 449 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 3: and tried psychedelics so, you know, many times as grief 450 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 3: therapy basically, and I think it worked for Loose did 451 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 3: it once? It ended up meaning that psychedelics was covered 452 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 3: for a long time rather favorably by Time and Life. 453 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 3: There were very positive articles about including one great article 454 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 3: about Carry Grant addressing his alcoholism with with psychedelics. So 455 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 3: you know, this is one of the again one of 456 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 3: the weird threads that that that introduced it to people. 457 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 3: The reason it had and in particular in a big 458 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 3: time way in the San Francisco area, was the work 459 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 3: of a fellow named Owsley Stanley. Owsley Stanley was a 460 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 3: It was a fascinating character, brilliant and also in my opinion, 461 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 3: probably on the autism spectrum, because his relationships with people 462 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 3: were always fraught. But but he got interested and ended 463 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 3: up making five million hits of LSD, very strong hits 464 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 3: on my Dad, so that the scene, the San Francisco, 465 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 3: you know, summer Lolove scene, so called the hippie scene, 466 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 3: had fuel. In other words, there were people. There are 467 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 3: a lot of people, you know, through the fifties, artists 468 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 3: of all stripes, theater and ants and whatnot, but in 469 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 3: particular in the Bay Area, but elsewhere, and they all 470 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 3: are experimenting and they get to LSD and whatever else 471 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 3: you say about LSD, and you can say a lot 472 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 3: people have. The fact is that if you've taken LSD, 473 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 3: you realize, to quote Jerry Garcia, that it reveals that 474 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 3: there's a lot more going on in life in reality. 475 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 3: Then you've been taught that it has many layers and 476 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 3: many possibilities, and it's all much more interesting. It can 477 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 3: be frightening, it can be whatever. But there's more there 478 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 3: than just being told, well, you know, live your life, 479 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 3: you're gonna die, you know, make babies and be normal 480 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 3: quote unquote. And LSD was a key to exploration. 481 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 2: Let's just stay with Jerry Garcia for Mario so called 482 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 2: Captain Tripps. He starts with LSD, but has his life ensues. 483 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 2: He ends up being hooked on Heroin. Where is the connection, 484 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 2: if any, between LSD and on that journey for Jerry. 485 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 3: Garcia, well, psychedelics, whether it was pot which is a 486 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 3: very mild psychedelic and LSD opened him up to, you know, 487 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 3: many things, including opening his his playing, which was based 488 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 3: on improvisation, into you know, an entire musical world. His 489 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 3: problem and was that, unfortunately, among other things, he became 490 00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 3: deified to the point where, uh, when you're stuck in 491 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 3: your hotel room for an entire tour because you literally 492 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 3: can't take a walk, you can't you can't go to 493 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 3: the museum. You know, you're in New York and you 494 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 3: can't go to the Museum of Modern Art because you're 495 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 3: gonna get blombed on eventually, and lots of other stuff. 496 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 3: I could go, you know, great length, but unresolved issues 497 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 3: from his childhood ended up fighting depression, which which he 498 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 3: would never acknowledge and which people never saw because he 499 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 3: was an unusual guy in that even depressed, he was 500 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 3: endlessly curious about the outside world. He would talk with 501 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 3: strangers and people that you would ordinarily go you know eh, 502 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 3: or interviews, which is why people love to interview, because 503 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 3: he did not do merchandising. He wanted to have a conversation, 504 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 3: which frankly, you know people from Rolling Stone would go, wow, 505 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 3: he just wants to talk. I once, as the grateful 506 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 3: that's publicist. I once started. I begged him to promote 507 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 3: a side issue something he'd done with David Grisman. I 508 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 3: think to this interview he was doing with Rolling Stone, 509 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 3: and you know, there's one paragraph on half a paragraph 510 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 3: and there's this long passage about Jerry's daughter then daughter, 511 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 3: three year old daughter, and I was about ready to 512 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 3: just read the Riot Act to the editor who had 513 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 3: done the interview, and he said, listen. I tried, and 514 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 3: I realized he was telling the truth. I tried to 515 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 3: ask him about the music. He just wanted to talk 516 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 3: about his fascination with you know, what was going on 517 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 3: in his daughter's mind as he was growing up. Well, 518 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 3: that's that's Jerry. But unfortunately, as I say, unacknowledged depression. 519 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 3: He's self medicated and that you know, he he was 520 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 3: anti authoritarian, so he wouldn't go to a doctor. So 521 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 3: he chose something. 522 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 2: Okay, Jerry is obviously not here, but inside relevant of 523 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,280 Speaker 2: what he verbalized, he was testifying about the powers of LSD. 524 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: Was he convincing themselves there were other powers of insight 525 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 2: in the other drugs he ultimately gravitated to. Or would 526 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 2: he admit really, at his core this was self medication? 527 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 3: Oh? I think you know? He yes, he would admit it. 528 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 3: A friend of his, John McIntyre, had been with the 529 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 3: band and that had gone away and had come back 530 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 3: and saw Jerry, I want to say, in the early 531 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 3: middle eighties, at which time he was already pretty well addicted, 532 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 3: and John said how are you? And Jerry said, well, 533 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 3: mostly I'm just becoming a junkie. He knew what was 534 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 3: going on, he he you know, he uh, he could 535 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 3: acknowledge it. But you know, he once said that it 536 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 3: wasn't that he could be ornery about things like his 537 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 3: personal space. You know, people tried to, oh, Jerry, you're 538 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 3: hurting yourself, and you know this is more than once. 539 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 3: Many deadheads come up to me or you know, anybody 540 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 3: associated with the band and said, why didn't you save him? 541 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 3: And my response is, have you ever you know, known 542 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 3: someone deeply addicted, and you know, until they're ready to 543 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 3: confront this, it ain't gonna work. And it didn't. 544 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 2: Okay, let's go back to LSD. You know, LSD is 545 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 2: not illegal till a certain point in the sixties. Honestly, 546 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 2: stan Lee makes his doses. Is this a small qude 547 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 2: of people, or is when does LSD start to spread? 548 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 2: You know, the country at large was a number of 549 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 2: years behind San Francisco, but certainly from sixty to sixty 550 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 2: four to sixty five, the rest of the country was oblivious. 551 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 2: It was almost to hangover the fifties. What was going 552 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 2: on in San Francisco. 553 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 3: Well, there was, certainly there was a community. There's a 554 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 3: community of seekers, of people that were comfortable. There was 555 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 3: a place called the Tape Music Center, which opened its 556 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 3: main thing in nineteen sixty three. Now what made it 557 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 3: interesting This was electronic composers a guy named Mortzebotnik, Pauline 558 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 3: Oliverro's and Ramon Sender. And they're producing music that is 559 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,280 Speaker 3: not popular, I mean in the capital pre popular sense. 560 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 3: It's you know, bleeps and blurbs and very you know, 561 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 3: very limited market. It had a much greater influence than 562 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 3: it had any business doing because among other things. When 563 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 3: they opened, they had this building. They rented this building 564 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 3: and very near the Hate. It was part of the 565 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,879 Speaker 3: transition from of Bohemia or whatever you want to call it, 566 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 3: from North Beach to the Hate. But they included in 567 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 3: their building KPFA, which was sort of a voice of 568 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 3: cultural descent in the Bay Area, very unusual in America 569 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 3: when it started in the fifties and through the sixties, 570 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 3: and the Anhelprint Dance Workshop, which was again a very 571 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 3: revolutionary new approach to dance, very very much in line 572 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 3: with what else was going on, but for dance. And 573 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,359 Speaker 3: they started spinning off all these cultural fusions where you'd 574 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 3: have events which combine art and dance and theater and 575 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 3: music and whatnot. And one of these, for instance, took 576 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 3: place one of the spinoffs at one of the aligned 577 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 3: groups was called the Mime Troop, and the Mime Troop 578 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 3: had a setup at a church on Cap Street in 579 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 3: the Mission District of San Francisco, and they did this 580 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 3: benefit for a guy who got arrested for pot and 581 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 3: it combined all those things. One of the musicians was 582 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 3: a young man, an unknown named Phil Lesh and as 583 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 3: he later wrote, he didn't really know you know why 584 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 3: he was I mean, he was there because it was fun, 585 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 3: but he didn't exactly know what they were doing, whether 586 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 3: they were just trying to you know, apati that has 587 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 3: smacked the bourgeois or what. He just knew that it 588 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,479 Speaker 3: was incredible fun and that it led into improvisation, which 589 00:43:54,520 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 3: two years later he leaving the musical familiar that he 590 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,439 Speaker 3: had been in, which was either big banjazz or neo 591 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 3: classical modernist stuff, and started playing improvisational music with Jerry Garcia. 592 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 3: But you know, that stuff just sort of flowers in 593 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 3: the early sixties, and these are the kind of people that, 594 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:27,399 Speaker 3: when said you should try this, it's amazing experience, they did. 595 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 3: The thing about the Hayde Ashbury was that it took 596 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 3: what were the anti mainstream opinions of the artists, the 597 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 3: avant garde artists of the fifties, and combined it with 598 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 3: the music. And what had also happened in parallel was 599 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,240 Speaker 3: the folk scene, which is overtly political and had always 600 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 3: been again associated with what had started out as the 601 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 3: IWW and was now would he Guthrie and through the 602 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 3: fifties as they gently left wing mode and all these 603 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 3: folkies here are the Beatles yet another major influence, and 604 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,240 Speaker 3: start and go, No, this rock and roll thing sounds 605 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 3: like fun. And they started playing rock and roll in 606 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 3: in particular in San Francisco and for instance in La 607 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:29,919 Speaker 3: with the Birds, and in folk rock in New York 608 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 3: City with the Love and Spoonful and so forth. And 609 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 3: the end result is and then they encounter LSD by 610 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 3: and large in just about that order, and they start 611 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 3: creating an improvisational not always improvisational. The Jefferson Airplane, which 612 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,799 Speaker 3: was by far the more influential of the bands at 613 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 3: that point. Then you certainly more than the Grateful Dead 614 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 3: used only you know, certain elements of improvisation, and they 615 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 3: were actually much more well for starters. They could sing, 616 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,359 Speaker 3: unlike the Dead in the early days. And the end 617 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 3: result was you have this this fusion of message and mode, 618 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 3: namely psychedelic rock, and it all comes together in San 619 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 3: in particular the Birds triggered you know, mirrored it or 620 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:29,240 Speaker 3: started it really in some ways in at Zero's where 621 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 3: again they combined dancing LSD some LCA. I don't know 622 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 3: how much. It is very clear. There's a great article 623 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 3: in the Free Press which was, by the way, the 624 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 3: first way that people in La had to sort of 625 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 3: connect with each other in that you know, Milliere, but 626 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 3: this guy and right now I'm going blank on his name, 627 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 3: but the guy who wrote the article, it clearly clearly 628 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,720 Speaker 3: had done LSD. And I suspect some of the people 629 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 3: in the audience at Zero's had because again, you know, 630 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 3: nobody was concealing anything in in San Francisco, and everybody 631 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,839 Speaker 3: in San Francisco knows somebody in Los Angeles, so there 632 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 3: was there was already a flow, and the end result 633 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 3: is the so called Summer of love. 634 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:20,799 Speaker 2: Wait, wait, before we get to the Summer of a 635 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 2: hold on a second. Yeah, you have the mind true benefit. Okay, 636 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,720 Speaker 2: obviously if you're hipped to that world, you know about it. Really, 637 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 2: by the seventies, every city has a local free rag 638 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 2: where it has all the listings. If I'm living in 639 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 2: San Francisco in the early sixties, am I aware? They say? 640 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 3: Oh? 641 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a San Francisco My troop not interested, 642 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 2: but I know it's there, or is it? Nineteen sixty 643 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,359 Speaker 2: six sixty seven? Also, this was happening right under my nose. 644 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:54,240 Speaker 2: I had no idea. 645 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 3: No, the mind troop had, you know, the benefit for 646 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,240 Speaker 3: the Mine Troop, which was in November of sixty five 647 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 3: for starters, they had been arrested for performing without a 648 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,719 Speaker 3: license in the parks. They had gotten their permits. They 649 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 3: had permits for forty nine shows all over the city. 650 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:27,399 Speaker 3: And then one of the one of the supervisors, not supervisors, 651 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,880 Speaker 3: but the members of the Park and Rec Commission said no, no, no, 652 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 3: they're vulgar. We can't allow this. After what he saw 653 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 3: the first performance. Then they went no, we're canceling. Well, 654 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 3: this is called freedom of speech, and in fact that's 655 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 3: what the judge decided not terribly long thereafter. So they 656 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 3: went to the park, didn't set up a stage because 657 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,840 Speaker 3: that would have violated their lack of permit. But Ronnie Davis, 658 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,880 Speaker 3: the leader of the Mine Troope, said, you know, in 659 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 3: the usual introduction, ladies and gentlemen and the Mime Troop 660 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 3: of San Francisco presents of us, and they really immediately 661 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,760 Speaker 3: just for talking, they busted it. So it's in the paper, 662 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,720 Speaker 3: so you know, if you're if you're you know, again, 663 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,759 Speaker 3: it's sort of in the air in San Francisco who 664 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 3: they are. But the San Francisco scene in a way, 665 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,840 Speaker 3: for instance, the Los Angeles to the best of my knowledge, 666 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 3: didn't have other than the Freak, which you know is 667 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 3: a very important connector. But in San Francisco it was 668 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 3: in the daily paper because the San Francisco Chronicle had 669 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 3: two people that covered the emerging counterculture from the fifties, 670 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 3: namely a guy named Tom Albright, who was the art 671 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 3: critic and very sympathetic to Wally Hedrick and all the rest, 672 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 3: and a very important guy named Ralph Gleeson. Ralph Gleeson 673 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 3: had been was a jazz started out as a jazz critic. 674 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 3: He was the first daily first jazz critic, regular jazz 675 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,400 Speaker 3: critic at a daily American newspapers. I have read. I 676 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 3: assume it's correct, but he's open to all kinds of music. 677 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 3: So in the fall of nineteen sixty five, these four 678 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 3: people who call themselves the Family Dog went to meet 679 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 3: with him and told him that they were going to 680 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 3: put on some shows and that the reason to that 681 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 3: point rock and roll had been produced at the Cow Palace, 682 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 3: and there were the sort of standard rock and roll 683 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 3: shows of the era where you had ten bands that 684 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,720 Speaker 3: each played five songs, and you couldn't dance. You're getting arrested. 685 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 3: People were getting arrested if they danced, and as Luria Castell, 686 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,520 Speaker 3: the kind of the leader of the dog said, you 687 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 3: know the only problem is that they can't dance. We're 688 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,920 Speaker 3: going to have a show where everybody can dance. You know, 689 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 3: there's not going to be any problems, which was quite correct. 690 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:02,279 Speaker 3: And they started shows in as I say, in the fall, 691 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 3: and Gleeson was all over it. So it didn't you know, 692 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,120 Speaker 3: you didn't have to be hip. You didn't have to 693 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 3: be you know. All you had to do is read 694 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,000 Speaker 3: the daily paper and read Ralph Gleeson, and he told 695 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,799 Speaker 3: you where to including the mind Troop benefit and other 696 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 3: benefits there were three. In fact, he covered it all, 697 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:25,880 Speaker 3: so all you had to do is read the paper. 698 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 3: So it was a lot easier because of Gleeson. Uh, 699 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 3: this kind of information dissemination was much easier than almost 700 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:35,240 Speaker 3: anywhere else. 701 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,560 Speaker 2: Okay, let's do some cleanup work. You talk about the 702 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 2: migration from North Beach to the heat. 703 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 3: Why and when The departure from from North Beach, of course, 704 00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,839 Speaker 3: was obviously a cause of two things. One was there 705 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 3: was an influx influx of tourists thronging Grand Avenue, and 706 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 3: you know, sometimes dumb young young guys who get you know, 707 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,959 Speaker 3: sloshed and looked for trouble. At least one cop who 708 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,839 Speaker 3: hated interracial couples and harassed some of the poets who 709 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:23,040 Speaker 3: were in interracial couples, and just in general, rents went 710 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:24,920 Speaker 3: up and it just you know, North Beach sort of 711 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,960 Speaker 3: lost its luster. The interesting thing about the Hate was, 712 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:37,320 Speaker 3: first it was it had been a student neighborhood since 713 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 3: the early fifties. San Francisco State University was originally at 714 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,399 Speaker 3: the located at the corner of Hate and Laguna, one 715 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:51,400 Speaker 3: end the east end of Hate Street, so it became 716 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,040 Speaker 3: you know, people were attending it. They lived in the Hate, 717 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,400 Speaker 3: which had been a very elegant neighborhood through the thirties, 718 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,399 Speaker 3: but in the third the Depression, it was cut off. 719 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,640 Speaker 3: These really magnificent buildings were cut up into apartments, very 720 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,600 Speaker 3: pretty expensive apartments. In fifty four, I don't know when 721 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,359 Speaker 3: they started there, frankly, maybe the thirties even, but in 722 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 3: fifty four they moved to the current location, which is 723 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,120 Speaker 3: out in a residential neighborhood called the Sunset Far Away, 724 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 3: but fortunately a straight streetcar ride to the Hate, so 725 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,879 Speaker 3: it stayed a student neighborhood. The other important thing was that, 726 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:39,320 Speaker 3: in their magnificent ignorance, the Dwight Eisenhower created the National 727 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:45,240 Speaker 3: Defense Highway Act and the engineers started building interstate freeways, 728 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 3: which was fine in between say San Francisco and Reno, 729 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 3: but they planned on doing having nine of them criss 730 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,920 Speaker 3: crossing San Francisco, dividing the city into little boxes. Fortunately, 731 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,320 Speaker 3: the supervisors resisted all but of it, and the last 732 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,719 Speaker 3: two were the last. The last one to be rejected 733 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,840 Speaker 3: was going to run straight up the Haye Ashbury neighborhood 734 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,880 Speaker 3: through Golden Gate Park so that you get to the 735 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:19,880 Speaker 3: Golden Gate Bridge faster. Locals were not having it, and fortunately, 736 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 3: by March of sixty six it was rejected as you know, 737 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 3: not not being useful. The result, however, had been that 738 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 3: property values in the Hatue were like rock bottom, so 739 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:38,800 Speaker 3: it made it a very inexpensive neighborhood. As I say, 740 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 3: uh the uh. The Tape Music Center sort of brought 741 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,560 Speaker 3: a lot of adventurous souls into an area with like 742 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,440 Speaker 3: literally one block off Hate Street and bit by bit 743 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,400 Speaker 3: and there was some other There's a place a coffee 744 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,799 Speaker 3: house called the Blue Uni Corn, which again brought but 745 00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,880 Speaker 3: The fundamental reason was it was cheap. I mean you 746 00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,799 Speaker 3: can to get you know, some friends and end up 747 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 3: paying twenty or thirty dollars a month a person to 748 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,160 Speaker 3: live in the hate and this gives you you know, 749 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:15,080 Speaker 3: most people can scavenge together that much money even then, 750 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:20,200 Speaker 3: and you could live there. And that was the journal, 751 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 3: you know, the nucleus of what became this psychedelic neighborhood. 752 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,759 Speaker 2: Okay, let's go from sixty to sixty five, sixty five, 753 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,920 Speaker 2: there's a lot of change before that. Jerry Garcia is 754 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,799 Speaker 2: influenced by the yard scene. He is not the only one. 755 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,600 Speaker 2: You have Jerry Garcia and a jug band, you have 756 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,240 Speaker 2: Dan Hicks. What's going on musically then. 757 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:50,319 Speaker 3: Well, again, primarily before the Beatles, it was what you 758 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,680 Speaker 3: call folk. Jerry had, as I say, heard Big Bill 759 00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,680 Speaker 3: Brunsey and gotten started studying the blues and just generally 760 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,960 Speaker 3: that also he actually played some early early rock and roll, 761 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,720 Speaker 3: which again was African American music modified by country music 762 00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:17,239 Speaker 3: and creating this new new genre. But various things, as 763 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 3: we all know, happened. You know, little Richard uh got religion, 764 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,479 Speaker 3: Chuck Barry, you know, Elvis went into the army, Chuck 765 00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:31,759 Speaker 3: Barry got arrested. So the end result was this phenomenon 766 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,319 Speaker 3: called folk music, in which which had been sort of 767 00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:40,520 Speaker 3: around but not you know, focused on, and a a 768 00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:46,560 Speaker 3: sort of sanitized version, namely, the Kingston Trio made a 769 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,840 Speaker 3: hit and people got interested and they and people like 770 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,319 Speaker 3: Jerry got interested in not just you know, in Kingston Trio, 771 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,560 Speaker 3: but in all the varieties of American music, whether it 772 00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:02,040 Speaker 3: was Cajun or you know, Elizabeth Cotton or you know, 773 00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 3: you name it, and he started studying that and then 774 00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 3: eventually he encountered what in some ways was his greatest love, 775 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,480 Speaker 3: which was bluegrass music and specifically the bluegrass banjo. And 776 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,120 Speaker 3: so he went off in, you know, in this highly 777 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:25,000 Speaker 3: demanding technical Uh there was a very strong folks sing 778 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:30,360 Speaker 3: in Berkeley that was a little more you know, sort 779 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,280 Speaker 3: of laid back. You know. Bluegrass is actually is not 780 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,160 Speaker 3: a folk music. It's a professional music created by professional musicians, 781 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,520 Speaker 3: and it's demanding and it's it's it's challenging to play. 782 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 3: And he was into that. But the Berkeley people, they 783 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,800 Speaker 3: created a band called the Crabgrassers to make gentle fun 784 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:55,440 Speaker 3: of bluegrass because they felt it was all too too technical, 785 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,960 Speaker 3: too demanding, and to to to seeking virtueos of virtual 786 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:07,200 Speaker 3: rather than the community spirit of folk music. At any rate, 787 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:12,480 Speaker 3: he wasn't the only one. David Freiberg was a part 788 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,880 Speaker 3: of a folk duo called David and Michaela and eventually 789 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,640 Speaker 3: he fell in with low company like John Chippolina and 790 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,800 Speaker 3: they created Quicksilver Messenger Service and on and on, and 791 00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:27,400 Speaker 3: Paul Cantner was a folkyu and Marty Ballen spotted him 792 00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,520 Speaker 3: and said, you look right, you want to join a band. 793 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,040 Speaker 3: And you know, Jerry garcia Is, just after he had 794 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:39,200 Speaker 3: started playing electric music with what was then the Warlocks 795 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,880 Speaker 3: and would become the Grateful deb ran into his buddy, 796 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 3: another blues guitarist by the name of Jorma Caalcanan, and 797 00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 3: Ormas says, you know, it's amazingly I'm in this electric band, 798 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,080 Speaker 3: and Jerry said that's funny, so am I And you 799 00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,680 Speaker 3: know you Ormis was of course the Jefferson Airplane. So 800 00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 3: you have this span of musicians, almost all of them 801 00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 3: from folk roots. And as I say, then they can 802 00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,280 Speaker 3: encounter first the Beatles and then in many cases LSD 803 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,160 Speaker 3: and things change. 804 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:17,000 Speaker 2: Okay, talking about the heat. As the sixties continue to 805 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:22,280 Speaker 2: play out, we have the hippies. The image is people 806 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,320 Speaker 2: who are essentially living on nothing. They're not violent. You 807 00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:31,040 Speaker 2: have Emmic Grogan and the diggers providing food. When does 808 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,680 Speaker 2: that lifestyle start and why? 809 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,880 Speaker 3: Well, in some ways it's sort of had always been 810 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 3: a you know, the idea of anti materialism, you know, 811 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:47,360 Speaker 3: started with throw you know, frankly, that's what my third 812 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:54,400 Speaker 3: books about is. You know, the background, the roots. You know, 813 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,560 Speaker 3: there's no there's no plan this this stuff. You know, 814 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,960 Speaker 3: nobody was saying, ah, we'll start, you know, to some extent, 815 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:07,600 Speaker 3: you know, it just happened. The hay Ashbury was San 816 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,960 Speaker 3: Francisco had a certain level of tolerance which made it, 817 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:16,160 Speaker 3: which encouraged it to happen there. It has a connection 818 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,480 Speaker 3: to nature that for instance New York, with all due respect, 819 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,840 Speaker 3: doesn't you know, you just don't feel the world of 820 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:26,280 Speaker 3: nature when you're in Tompkins Square Park and there is 821 01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 3: some kind of connection. And I won't go too far 822 01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:36,920 Speaker 3: with this, but between appreciation for nature and the psychedelic experience, well, 823 01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,280 Speaker 3: you know, it's one thing to be on h Street 824 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,280 Speaker 3: and you know you're really high and down the end 825 01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,120 Speaker 3: of the block is Golden Gate Park and you know, 826 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,400 Speaker 3: you want to go experience nature there it is or 827 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,400 Speaker 3: quite close by an accessible marine county and tam and 828 01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,760 Speaker 3: all this good stuff, unlike New York, which is you 829 01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,080 Speaker 3: know which sort of you had to fight the fact 830 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:05,840 Speaker 3: that there's eight million people all around you. So you know, 831 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:13,120 Speaker 3: it's so at any rate, it coalesces in the hate 832 01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:18,000 Speaker 3: just because just because it was it was, it was cheap, 833 01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,680 Speaker 3: it was it was fun and for the year in 834 01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,640 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty six at least it worked like a charm. 835 01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So in nineteen sixty six, how many of these 836 01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:34,400 Speaker 2: people were just living with cheap rent, working somewhere doing something, 837 01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,960 Speaker 2: And how many were hippies, which people in that era 838 01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:43,800 Speaker 2: might label free loaders or you know, hangers on in 839 01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,000 Speaker 2: that era, how big an element was. 840 01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:50,240 Speaker 3: That well, you know, even hippies had to work occasionally. 841 01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:55,000 Speaker 3: The classic example is Danny Rifkin, who was one of 842 01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,680 Speaker 3: the first managers of The Grateful Dad. He was the 843 01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,200 Speaker 3: guy who managed, He was the house manager. Sure, here's 844 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,680 Speaker 3: an example. He was the house manager at seven to 845 01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,480 Speaker 3: ten Ashbury Street, which later became the home of The 846 01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,880 Speaker 3: Grateful Dad, and you know, sort of a legendary place. 847 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,080 Speaker 3: So he was getting his rent free. He was working 848 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:17,440 Speaker 3: very part time at the post office, and you know, 849 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:19,880 Speaker 3: so if you work, you could work ten hours a 850 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,360 Speaker 3: week or you know, at some dull mail sorting job 851 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,520 Speaker 3: and spend the rest of the time being happy. So 852 01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,720 Speaker 3: you know that's not to say I mean freeloaders, no, 853 01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:33,800 Speaker 3: you know not, I mean people found a way to 854 01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:40,960 Speaker 3: live on the margin and have the time. You know. 855 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,520 Speaker 3: My personal favorite slogan is time is more important than money, 856 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,840 Speaker 3: because you know, time can buy you money, but you know, 857 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:52,400 Speaker 3: money can't really buy you time. And the the you know, 858 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:56,520 Speaker 3: and that was certainly Rifkins you know philosophy. Then he 859 01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:02,040 Speaker 3: lived modestly and as a result could spend most of 860 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,640 Speaker 3: his time doing you know what he chose, and that was, 861 01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 3: among other things, to later to become the Dead's manager. 862 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:15,360 Speaker 3: An unmanageable bunch, but there you go. It worked for him. 863 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,960 Speaker 3: And so the people that were coming to the hay 864 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:25,640 Speaker 3: again were almost all, you know, having an affinity for 865 01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:30,200 Speaker 3: living on the outside of the standard world. The neighborhood 866 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:37,120 Speaker 3: became identified as hippie simply because well it started with 867 01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:43,360 Speaker 3: a lady named Peggy Caserta. Peggy Caserta was I happened 868 01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,720 Speaker 3: to be a lesbian, was what was then called a 869 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,240 Speaker 3: stewardess for Delta Airlines, and then I think she worked 870 01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,680 Speaker 3: in the you know as anyway, she came to San Francisco, 871 01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:59,120 Speaker 3: fell in love with the city, and eventually opened Narsitica. 872 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:03,680 Speaker 3: Narsitica was named after one of Sappho who was you know, 873 01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:08,000 Speaker 3: sort of the not role model, what's the word, the 874 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:15,200 Speaker 3: icon of lesbian culture, and Asitica was one of her lovers. 875 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,520 Speaker 3: And she opened this clothing store in nineteen sixty five. 876 01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,800 Speaker 3: Actually it was sort of a mod store and it 877 01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:27,360 Speaker 3: sold mod fashions. Then she took LSD and it became 878 01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,320 Speaker 3: a psychedelic store. The Grateful Dead model for her not 879 01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,920 Speaker 3: very good looking models by and large, but you know, 880 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,880 Speaker 3: she took what she could get her best. Her best 881 01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,240 Speaker 3: customer was Marty Ballen, who was probably the most stylish 882 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:46,400 Speaker 3: guy in the hate and he kept her going and she, 883 01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:51,560 Speaker 3: among other things, helped introduce bell bottom jeans to America 884 01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:57,240 Speaker 3: because her all of her male friends were wearing boots 885 01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:03,040 Speaker 3: and they needed, you know, none stove pipe jeans to 886 01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:08,160 Speaker 3: get them over their boots. The fact. And then shortly 887 01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,680 Speaker 3: thereafter there were a lot of other stores, including the 888 01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:14,680 Speaker 3: psychedelic shop, which were these two brothers, Ron and Jay Felon, 889 01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:20,040 Speaker 3: who decided, you know, what we need is a store 890 01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:24,280 Speaker 3: where you can go learn how to take a good trip, 891 01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:29,120 Speaker 3: to prepare yourself, that it's an important activity. And they bought. 892 01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:36,480 Speaker 3: They sold books, obviously, they sold Huxley, they sold Archie 893 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:41,440 Speaker 3: Shep and you know avant garde jazz, John Coltrane, of 894 01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:47,160 Speaker 3: course music and you know all the chachkes that what 895 01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:51,240 Speaker 3: we think of as being part of hippie culture, incense 896 01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:57,120 Speaker 3: and decorations and such. And it happened, and you know, 897 01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:58,440 Speaker 3: more stores came. 898 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:06,080 Speaker 2: There was Okay, to what degree was there a migration 899 01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:10,960 Speaker 2: and what was the motivation prior to nineteen sixty seven, 900 01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,920 Speaker 2: the BN in the Summer of Love, people like Janis Joplin, 901 01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,520 Speaker 2: How did they get the memo? And what drove them 902 01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:19,760 Speaker 2: to San Francisco. 903 01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:24,440 Speaker 3: Janie, There's an easy answer to that, which is she 904 01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,960 Speaker 3: read about on the road in time. She was already 905 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:33,160 Speaker 3: not your average Port Arthur's person because she had glombed 906 01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,840 Speaker 3: onto the blues early in her teens. She heard I 907 01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:42,600 Speaker 3: think she heard Elvis Costello, Elvis Presley doing Jailhouse Rock. No, 908 01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:49,280 Speaker 3: not Jailhouse rock Big Mama Thornton's song a Humdog, and 909 01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,400 Speaker 3: then she went to Big Mama Thornton and she was 910 01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:54,160 Speaker 3: hooked on the blues. So that made her a very 911 01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:58,280 Speaker 3: unusual person. And she was from this factory town or 912 01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:03,600 Speaker 3: oil refinery town in Texas called Port Arthur. And then 913 01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,800 Speaker 3: she read about on the Road in time somehow managed 914 01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,200 Speaker 3: to get a copy of the book. I don't think 915 01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:11,680 Speaker 3: they sold a lot of copies in Port Arthur and 916 01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:15,880 Speaker 3: said this is it. I'm a beat Nick. And again 917 01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:22,440 Speaker 3: it was her bible. Dan Hicks of Dan you know 918 01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,640 Speaker 3: Dan Hicks and the Hot Legs said that, you know, 919 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,720 Speaker 3: I met her as in her first visit to San Francisco, 920 01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 3: because it was obviously in on the road to San 921 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,040 Speaker 3: Francisco was where it was at. So she headed out 922 01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:36,880 Speaker 3: to San Francisco, didn't do very well. She was a 923 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:41,120 Speaker 3: folky by then, but didn't didn't hit as it were, 924 01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:46,360 Speaker 3: and but what's his name? Hicks describes meeting her as 925 01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:54,840 Speaker 3: this big, tough, lesbian beatnick and she, you know, Janie 926 01:07:54,880 --> 01:08:00,200 Speaker 3: got around who's clearly by but at any rate, but yeah, 927 01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:04,120 Speaker 3: it was on the road that taught her that. And 928 01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:10,000 Speaker 3: it was the scene in the fifties, for instance, the 929 01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:15,080 Speaker 3: one of the essential fountains of alternative culture was a 930 01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,680 Speaker 3: place called the Black Mountain College, which was actually in 931 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:22,080 Speaker 3: North Carolina, but it was where almost all of the 932 01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,200 Speaker 3: avant garde artists on the East many of the avant 933 01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:28,000 Speaker 3: garde artists and poets of the East Coast, starting with 934 01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,320 Speaker 3: John Cage and Joseph Alberts and all these people taught 935 01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:36,640 Speaker 3: and their students heard about San Francisco, That's all I 936 01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,720 Speaker 3: can say. And they migrated, and one of them was 937 01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:43,840 Speaker 3: became the bartender at the place, and another was a 938 01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:46,479 Speaker 3: woman who was not really so much part of that scene, 939 01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,439 Speaker 3: but was an important artist in San Francisco by the 940 01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:53,000 Speaker 3: name of Ruth Osawa, who did these sculptures that are just, 941 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:58,840 Speaker 3: you know, a marvel. At any rate, The fact is 942 01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:12,960 Speaker 3: that if you wanted to know, you found out. 943 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:15,960 Speaker 2: Okay, what is the antecedents of the ben? How does 944 01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:17,040 Speaker 2: the ben happen? 945 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:17,920 Speaker 3: In? 946 01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,280 Speaker 2: What is the BN experience? 947 01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:25,800 Speaker 3: So Haye Ashbury in nineteen sixty six, as I say, 948 01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:30,880 Speaker 3: was pretty low key. Nobody was paying any you know, 949 01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,439 Speaker 3: neither the police nor city fathers were paying particular attention 950 01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:40,040 Speaker 3: to it. It was just this funky neighborhood where oddly 951 01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:46,000 Speaker 3: dressed people had started to emerge, very colorful, but you know, 952 01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:52,520 Speaker 3: nobody paid much attention to them. One of the institutions 953 01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:58,120 Speaker 3: that flowered in the fall of sixty six was The Oracle, 954 01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,280 Speaker 3: which was the local what you would definitely call the 955 01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:07,280 Speaker 3: hippie newspaper, mystical involved with a lot of astrology and 956 01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:11,040 Speaker 3: a lot of you know, mystical painting and third eye 957 01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:16,519 Speaker 3: and you know, the sort of explorative stuff, and obviously 958 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:21,200 Speaker 3: very much connected to LSD. It was run by a poet, 959 01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:26,040 Speaker 3: you know, what would you expect and and uh, the leader, 960 01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,400 Speaker 3: the art director of the the Oracle was a guy 961 01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:32,919 Speaker 3: named Michael Bowen, who again came out of that mystical tradition. 962 01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:38,200 Speaker 3: And I might add, just to throw in a curveball, 963 01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:43,599 Speaker 3: that his his role model. Oh god, I'm forgetting his name, 964 01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:47,400 Speaker 3: but is a man John somebody or other who lived 965 01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:53,080 Speaker 3: in Mexico and whose brother in law was an important 966 01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:56,880 Speaker 3: figure in the CIA. And they are all these what 967 01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:03,439 Speaker 3: I regard is fairly daffy conspiracy theories that say that, 968 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,640 Speaker 3: you know, the whole of the sixties was just a 969 01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:11,000 Speaker 3: function of you know, it was actually a CIA front. 970 01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:16,519 Speaker 3: Now I think that's incorrect, And I don't think Jerry 971 01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:19,320 Speaker 3: Garcia was running for anybody or any of those guys. 972 01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,960 Speaker 3: The fact that the CIA had introduced LSD to America 973 01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:28,200 Speaker 3: is a fact. But after that, frankly, I think they 974 01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:32,639 Speaker 3: lost control. And you know, individuals did what individuals do. 975 01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:38,280 Speaker 3: But at any rate, Bowen and others they had. On 976 01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:42,440 Speaker 3: October sixth, nineteen sixty six, LSD became illegal in California, 977 01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:50,600 Speaker 3: and the people at the Oracle, being profound, profoundly anti negativity, 978 01:11:51,720 --> 01:12:00,440 Speaker 3: announced that they would instead of resisting, instead of protests, 979 01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,439 Speaker 3: they would simply celebrate, celebrate the joy of the day. 980 01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:07,519 Speaker 3: So on October sixth, nineteen sixty six, they got the 981 01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,439 Speaker 3: Grateful Dead and I think the airplane to come down 982 01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,480 Speaker 3: and play on flatbed trucks set up in the Panhandle. 983 01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:18,920 Speaker 3: The panhandles, this long, thin extension of Golden Gate Park. 984 01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,200 Speaker 3: It's like one block wide. It's between two big streets. 985 01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:31,840 Speaker 3: But literally they threw electric cords over from a second 986 01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:36,000 Speaker 3: floor apartment to the trees in the Panhandle to power 987 01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:41,519 Speaker 3: you could do it then with simple you know, extension cords, 988 01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:48,920 Speaker 3: the equipment and the bands played. It was called the 989 01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:54,720 Speaker 3: Love Pageant Rally. And two thousand people showed up and 990 01:12:54,840 --> 01:13:01,479 Speaker 3: had a wonderful time. So this germinated, and eventually the 991 01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:05,400 Speaker 3: people at the Oracle and the others said, let's let's 992 01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:07,760 Speaker 3: have a bigger celebration. Let's get you know, all the 993 01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,920 Speaker 3: people that are connected with us, which included, among other things, 994 01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:16,639 Speaker 3: all the people very political Berkeley people, and generally speaking 995 01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,240 Speaker 3: historians say, oh, the Berkeleys are political, and the Hippies 996 01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:23,599 Speaker 3: were a political and no connection. Well, no, the Berkeley 997 01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:29,120 Speaker 3: smoke pod, the hippies were certainly not for the war. 998 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,639 Speaker 3: They may be a little less active, but the fact 999 01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:38,400 Speaker 3: is that there's a great deal more shared than antagonistic 1000 01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:44,880 Speaker 3: book between them. Michael Rossman, who wrote a wonderful book 1001 01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:47,120 Speaker 3: called The Wedding Within the War and was very much 1002 01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,400 Speaker 3: part of the free speech movement, called the Hayte Ashbury 1003 01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:55,400 Speaker 3: our mark one ghetto. That it was that they were 1004 01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:59,960 Speaker 3: kindred and they decided to have a party and celebrate. Now, 1005 01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:04,200 Speaker 3: you know, nothing wrong with that. Day to day life 1006 01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:07,000 Speaker 3: in the hate was kind of a celebration. What they 1007 01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:10,680 Speaker 3: did not expect and what I don't think anybody could have, 1008 01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:15,679 Speaker 3: especially San Francisco Police Department, was that somewhere between thirty 1009 01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,320 Speaker 3: and fifty thousand people showed up, and you had the poets, 1010 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:23,960 Speaker 3: the beat poets who were their mentors, read and then 1011 01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:26,280 Speaker 3: you had rock and roll and it was this marvelous 1012 01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:29,880 Speaker 3: day that celebrated nothing in particular except let's have a 1013 01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:37,720 Speaker 3: good time. One of the Berkeley politicos, a guy, the 1014 01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:43,679 Speaker 3: guy who produced Country Joe and the Fish, said that 1015 01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,840 Speaker 3: there was a great opportunity to rally the people and 1016 01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:49,080 Speaker 3: they blew it. And you know, most of the people 1017 01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:52,400 Speaker 3: that were there would say, nah, you know, I had 1018 01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,040 Speaker 3: a wonderful time, and you know, it was kind of 1019 01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:58,240 Speaker 3: a perfect day. But the problem, of course with the 1020 01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:02,800 Speaker 3: b N was can't conceal fifty thousand people. When I 1021 01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:06,800 Speaker 3: say that the police department ignored it, that's because the 1022 01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:13,280 Speaker 3: entire security. Think about this now, the entire security police 1023 01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:21,719 Speaker 3: security for this event. We're two mounted patrolmen horse patrolman looking, 1024 01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:25,519 Speaker 3: you know, down on thirty forty fifty thousand people. And 1025 01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:28,680 Speaker 3: the lady came up to them and said, officer, you 1026 01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:30,800 Speaker 3: have to help me. I've lost my child and you know, 1027 01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:33,080 Speaker 3: I don't know how to find them. And they and 1028 01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:36,599 Speaker 3: the cops said, lady, we can't go down there. They're 1029 01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:40,559 Speaker 3: smoking pot, go to the stage, ask them to make 1030 01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:43,000 Speaker 3: an announcement. They'll find you know, you'll find your child. 1031 01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:45,320 Speaker 3: It won't be a prog And of course that's the 1032 01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:49,639 Speaker 3: way it worked out. I might add that they then 1033 01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:53,160 Speaker 3: messed up their perfect record by arresting about one hundred 1034 01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,360 Speaker 3: kids when they were walking after the event and they're 1035 01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:59,960 Speaker 3: walking home down h Street, and they were started arrest 1036 01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:05,519 Speaker 3: people for obstructing traffic. But anyway, on the whole, you know, 1037 01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,679 Speaker 3: it came out of nowhere, and that's sort of proof 1038 01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,880 Speaker 3: about how much out of nowhere it came. But it 1039 01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:16,160 Speaker 3: was never going to be nowhere after that, because then 1040 01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:21,880 Speaker 3: you have a flood of media from all over the 1041 01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:26,519 Speaker 3: country descending on the hate. You know, what's going on here. 1042 01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:30,720 Speaker 3: And as I say, they basically just didn't have a 1043 01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:35,200 Speaker 3: clue as to what was underlying what was going on. 1044 01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:38,719 Speaker 3: All they saw was literally what they could see. 1045 01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:43,680 Speaker 2: Okay, it's at this point from the outside, you can 1046 01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,320 Speaker 2: tell us the real story that people start to come 1047 01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:51,479 Speaker 2: from all over the country in sixty seven is the 1048 01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:54,280 Speaker 2: summer of love. At this point, the I mean I'm 1049 01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:58,599 Speaker 2: living outside San Francisco, I mean the other coast. People 1050 01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:00,800 Speaker 2: were aware of something. I really didn't know what was 1051 01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,599 Speaker 2: going on until really the year after. So my point 1052 01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:10,479 Speaker 2: is was sixty seven flowers and fun and when did 1053 01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:14,960 Speaker 2: it start to go downhill? Overrun? With people coming? 1054 01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:19,960 Speaker 3: It started to go downhill, you know, by March or April, 1055 01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:26,879 Speaker 3: everybody in San Francisco again with the eruption of media coverage. 1056 01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:32,879 Speaker 3: The people in San Francisco, including the diggers, were aware 1057 01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:38,040 Speaker 3: that new people, more people would become, particularly after school 1058 01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:41,720 Speaker 3: got out, high school kids, college kids in other words, 1059 01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:45,320 Speaker 3: people with very little money and you know, very young 1060 01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:51,120 Speaker 3: and not a lot of emotional or occupational resources. The 1061 01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,719 Speaker 3: people that had been in the hate in sixty six 1062 01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:59,839 Speaker 3: were all, generally speaking, mostly in their twenties. They did something. 1063 01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:04,120 Speaker 3: They they found, you know, they they they, as I say, 1064 01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,920 Speaker 3: lived lived on the margins, but clearly knew how to 1065 01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:13,360 Speaker 3: you know, how to get by by the summer you had. 1066 01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,240 Speaker 3: And nobody knows how many could have been as many 1067 01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:20,920 Speaker 3: as one hundred thousand people came to San Francisco and 1068 01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:24,200 Speaker 3: they basically came in and they said, feed me, find 1069 01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,879 Speaker 3: me a place to sleep. They were you know, mostly dependent, 1070 01:18:28,360 --> 01:18:31,320 Speaker 3: I'm not you know, they were seekers and and and 1071 01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:36,360 Speaker 3: you know, bless them, but it flooded a very small 1072 01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:42,479 Speaker 3: neighborhood and pretty much destroyed almost immediately the so called 1073 01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:45,840 Speaker 3: good vibes, not so called they were there were very 1074 01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:52,360 Speaker 3: legitimately good vibes. But with this kind of overload, uh it. 1075 01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:57,880 Speaker 3: You know, the diggers. There was a wonderful institution called 1076 01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:01,760 Speaker 3: All Saints Church that and the neighborhood in general did 1077 01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,760 Speaker 3: their very best to take care of these newcomers. But 1078 01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:09,280 Speaker 3: it was, you know, it was dysfunctional. It was simply 1079 01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:12,400 Speaker 3: it was too many people and too much at once. 1080 01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:18,240 Speaker 3: So the reason, frankly, and I'll freely confess to cheating, 1081 01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:21,120 Speaker 3: which is the reason my book ends with the Monterey 1082 01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:27,320 Speaker 3: Pop Festival, is that this is the high point discounting 1083 01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:33,040 Speaker 3: the anxiety of the spring, the legend of the Summer 1084 01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:36,400 Speaker 3: of Love, which when they first asked me to do 1085 01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:38,360 Speaker 3: that photo, showice that you realize that the Summer of 1086 01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:41,400 Speaker 3: Love was in fact the fall of sixty six, because 1087 01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:45,360 Speaker 3: a that's when San Francisco has its best weather, and 1088 01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,360 Speaker 3: b you know, it was, as I say, low key 1089 01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:49,200 Speaker 3: and under the radar. 1090 01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,000 Speaker 2: The peak. 1091 01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:57,559 Speaker 3: The image that people have of the Summer of Love 1092 01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:00,840 Speaker 3: is sort of be a tific young pe people with 1093 01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,880 Speaker 3: flowers in their hair, listening to you know, fabulous music, 1094 01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:09,080 Speaker 3: tripping their socks off, and being as peaceful and benign 1095 01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:13,240 Speaker 3: as you could ever imagine. And at Monterey this was 1096 01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:17,040 Speaker 3: the truth. There were seven thousand seats in the arena 1097 01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:20,439 Speaker 3: at Monterey that could actually listen directly to the music, 1098 01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:26,480 Speaker 3: although you could hear it all around. There were probably 1099 01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:34,479 Speaker 3: twenty five thousand people hippies at Monterey, and nothing bad happened. 1100 01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:39,040 Speaker 3: I mean the police, I can't imagine what was going 1101 01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:44,640 Speaker 3: on Friday afternoon. This ran Friday, Satday, Sunday. And Bob Marinello, 1102 01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:47,439 Speaker 3: I think his name is Bob Marinello, the police chief 1103 01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:51,680 Speaker 3: of Monterey. I can't imagine what was going through his 1104 01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:57,160 Speaker 3: mind as the floods of people arrived. And if they 1105 01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:01,320 Speaker 3: had wanted to, you know, create trouble, they could have. 1106 01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:06,280 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, simply by numbers. I just got 1107 01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:12,000 Speaker 3: this most wonderful story just the other day, and now 1108 01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:13,800 Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember who it was that told me. 1109 01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:18,040 Speaker 3: She's an Asian woman and she was telling me about 1110 01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:23,800 Speaker 3: her mother who lived near the Monterey Fairgrounds and who 1111 01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,400 Speaker 3: you know, didn't know what was going on, knew nothing 1112 01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:31,679 Speaker 3: about the festival. All she knew was that on Friday 1113 01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:33,799 Speaker 3: there were a couple of hippies that were like sleeping 1114 01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:37,599 Speaker 3: on her lawn and she just sort of went, oh, 1115 01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:40,040 Speaker 3: you know, never mind, I'm not going to get involved 1116 01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:43,519 Speaker 3: with it. And on Saturday they were like several they 1117 01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:45,320 Speaker 3: were sleeping under her house, you know, they were all 1118 01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:47,920 Speaker 3: over the place, and she's basically calling her daughter saying, 1119 01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:50,960 Speaker 3: what the hell is going on, and her daughter's trying 1120 01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,280 Speaker 3: to explain it to her. And then on Sunday they 1121 01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:57,479 Speaker 3: already all these people sleeping on her lawn and vanished, 1122 01:21:57,520 --> 01:21:59,960 Speaker 3: and she went, oh, okay, well at least it was temper, 1123 01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:05,000 Speaker 3: no harm done. The fact is, and it's my my 1124 01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:12,200 Speaker 3: favorite picture in my book is the peacefulness of what 1125 01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:15,400 Speaker 3: happened in Monterey when it you know, it just could 1126 01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:20,880 Speaker 3: have been a disaster. Was There's a marvelous picture of 1127 01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:25,160 Speaker 3: a police officer. They the organizers had put orchids on 1128 01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:30,639 Speaker 3: the seats of all the seats in the arena, and uh, 1129 01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:34,519 Speaker 3: this this there's a picture of this police officer, motorcycle officer, 1130 01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:38,559 Speaker 3: stringing orchids on the that he had picked up on 1131 01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:42,360 Speaker 3: the aerial of his motorcycle, smiling, you know, it's just 1132 01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:47,360 Speaker 3: completely unbusy, and he's just fooling with flowers, which is 1133 01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:50,120 Speaker 3: you know, of course, the way we'd all like in 1134 01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:52,679 Speaker 3: a mass gathering for the police to you know, feel 1135 01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:57,320 Speaker 3: that there are no stress, no need to to come 1136 01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:00,360 Speaker 3: up with attitude. And that's you know, that sort of 1137 01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:03,679 Speaker 3: the magic of Monterey, and frankly, that's why I decided 1138 01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:09,280 Speaker 3: to end it, because everything after Monterey gets more complicated. 1139 01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:12,400 Speaker 3: As I say, the Hate stops being fun city and 1140 01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:17,920 Speaker 3: becomes among other things, the police department changed Hate Street 1141 01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:21,479 Speaker 3: into a one way street and put up crime lights 1142 01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:25,680 Speaker 3: these you know, really ugly yellow It looked like it 1143 01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:27,920 Speaker 3: looked like the outskirts of the Berlin Wall or something, 1144 01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:33,640 Speaker 3: and made it as unattractive as possible. And given you know, 1145 01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,200 Speaker 3: the thousands of people that were just sort of wandering 1146 01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:39,519 Speaker 3: around and didn't quite know where to go, you know, 1147 01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:44,040 Speaker 3: it became less than charming. So what happened really in 1148 01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:48,439 Speaker 3: many ways is that things simply dispersed. They went out 1149 01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:52,679 Speaker 3: into the country, California country, so that you have even 1150 01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:58,519 Speaker 3: more people up in the Humboldt down in Carmel and 1151 01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:02,280 Speaker 3: you know, all the way around, or they went back 1152 01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:05,160 Speaker 3: and you know took up in in on the East 1153 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:11,280 Speaker 3: coast wherever, or the Midwest. My favorite example of all that. 1154 01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:13,640 Speaker 3: And one of the things that that you know is 1155 01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:19,000 Speaker 3: really I think really significant about what The important thing 1156 01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:21,479 Speaker 3: to remember about the hate is it had very I 1157 01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:25,479 Speaker 3: think it had very little impact politically. There was a 1158 01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:29,960 Speaker 3: certain it certainly benefited the anti war movement, but other 1159 01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:35,720 Speaker 3: than that, not so much politically. Culturally, however, endless elements 1160 01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:38,080 Speaker 3: of what happened in the hate are still part of 1161 01:24:38,120 --> 01:24:40,680 Speaker 3: our lives today. That's one of the reasons why what 1162 01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,360 Speaker 3: I tell these these high school kids that are interested is, 1163 01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:46,520 Speaker 3: you know, none of this has went away. The fact 1164 01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:52,760 Speaker 3: that the hated Ashbury sort of created and advertised the 1165 01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:57,400 Speaker 3: gentle male hippie, which was one of the archetypes I think, 1166 01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:02,519 Speaker 3: led to things like uptons and promote a promotion of 1167 01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:07,000 Speaker 3: gay liberation, which you know, the next decade you had 1168 01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:13,000 Speaker 3: the influx the created gay neighborhoods in San Francisco, and 1169 01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:16,320 Speaker 3: now we're dealing with with an administration that wants to 1170 01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:20,759 Speaker 3: deny the existence of trans people. You know, the wars 1171 01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:29,240 Speaker 3: go on part I mean organic food sam The experience 1172 01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:33,439 Speaker 3: of LSD led people in the hate to be very 1173 01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:38,000 Speaker 3: sensitive to things like like sugar and artificial food and 1174 01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:44,400 Speaker 3: things like you know, plastic clothing, polyestic clothing, that sort 1175 01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:48,680 Speaker 3: of thing. And you know, now organic food is a 1176 01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:52,439 Speaker 3: forty billion dollar a year industry. One of the people 1177 01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:55,519 Speaker 3: who was critical in all that was a guy named 1178 01:25:55,600 --> 01:26:00,120 Speaker 3: Roger Hilliard. Roger Hilliard was the was one of of 1179 01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:03,680 Speaker 3: the light show artists at the Avalon Ballroom with a 1180 01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:07,880 Speaker 3: guy named Ben bean Meter and eventually he and a 1181 01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,880 Speaker 3: guy named Hawken Stephen Hawkin. No, I'm thinking of the 1182 01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:19,479 Speaker 3: physicist Ah Paul hawk anyway, who later with Smith and 1183 01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:24,880 Speaker 3: Hawkin the fairly famous store chain of supplies. But in 1184 01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:29,080 Speaker 3: the seventies they went east and near Boston they created 1185 01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:32,240 Speaker 3: erewon E E R E W h O N, which 1186 01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:37,360 Speaker 3: was a major influence on the wholesaling as it were, 1187 01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:45,879 Speaker 3: organic food and such things all across America. And you know, now, uh, 1188 01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,360 Speaker 3: you know, one of the sources, one of the primary 1189 01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:54,040 Speaker 3: sources of organic food is the Midwest because they noticed 1190 01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:58,080 Speaker 3: the poisons, you know as much as we do, so uh, 1191 01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:02,559 Speaker 3: you know, and it goes on. I mean, there's my 1192 01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:07,120 Speaker 3: favorite example of all this actually, and again it's not 1193 01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:10,880 Speaker 3: overt there's a marvelous book that I recommend to everybody 1194 01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:16,000 Speaker 3: called What the Dormouse Said. What the Dormouse Said is 1195 01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:19,000 Speaker 3: a history of Silicon Valley and LSD. It's by a 1196 01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:22,720 Speaker 3: guy named John Markoff, who covered Silicon Valley for the 1197 01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,639 Speaker 3: New York Times for years and had, you know, did 1198 01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:30,680 Speaker 3: a really excellent book about the connection between LSD and 1199 01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:33,920 Speaker 3: the people who created the personal computer. Now there's a 1200 01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:41,360 Speaker 3: reason why Silicon Valley where the individual home computer happened 1201 01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:44,840 Speaker 3: in Silicon Valley rather than say, near Mit. And that's 1202 01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:49,479 Speaker 3: because there was a guy who created the Institute for 1203 01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:52,680 Speaker 3: not Advanced Studies. I'm mixing it up with somebody, but 1204 01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:56,960 Speaker 3: at any rate started distributing this is when it was 1205 01:27:57,000 --> 01:28:00,800 Speaker 3: still legal LSD to all these engineers in the Silicon Valley, 1206 01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:04,439 Speaker 3: and some of them were part of the Homebrew Computing Club, 1207 01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:10,200 Speaker 3: among them Steven Jobs and Steve Wasney, and they went 1208 01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:15,680 Speaker 3: on and again. This is clearly influenced by Ellis Date 1209 01:28:16,320 --> 01:28:22,200 Speaker 3: with Apple, and you know, there you have it. That's 1210 01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:26,360 Speaker 3: an essential part of American culture today. Obviously, now I'm 1211 01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:29,640 Speaker 3: not saying it. You know, it only exists because of 1212 01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:34,360 Speaker 3: the psychedelic connection, but it's influence. 1213 01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:46,519 Speaker 2: Okay, So in the spring of sixty seven you have 1214 01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:50,360 Speaker 2: Scott mckenz who the hit if You're Going to San Francisco, 1215 01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:53,759 Speaker 2: and the Jeffery Souperent Airplane breakthrough with their first album 1216 01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:57,280 Speaker 2: with Gray Slick, their second album, Somebody to Love to 1217 01:28:57,400 --> 01:29:02,160 Speaker 2: What do you believe that drove people to San Francisco? 1218 01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,599 Speaker 3: Not so much Summer Somebody Loved. I mean, it was 1219 01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,080 Speaker 3: a it was a song that brought people to pay 1220 01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:13,880 Speaker 3: attention to to the airplane. But the song that came 1221 01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:18,719 Speaker 3: out of the hate that brought everyone to the Summer 1222 01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:23,160 Speaker 3: of Love was White Rabbit. White Rabbit. To this day 1223 01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:27,679 Speaker 3: is this very very potent song. It's it's mysterious, it's inviting, 1224 01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:33,559 Speaker 3: it's seductive, and it's also misunderstood because, among other things, 1225 01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,479 Speaker 3: the the you know, the final chorus is feed your head, 1226 01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:44,479 Speaker 3: and uh, Grace Slick sincerely intended that as a way 1227 01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:48,519 Speaker 3: of you know, growing, not just stuffing drugs in your head, 1228 01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:51,920 Speaker 3: but learning and art, music and very you know whatever, 1229 01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:56,720 Speaker 3: but grow. And people heard that and it was the 1230 01:29:56,760 --> 01:30:02,160 Speaker 3: first message to you know, young people listening to the 1231 01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:06,760 Speaker 3: radio that was pure. That is to say, it wasn't 1232 01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:09,280 Speaker 3: modulated by the media. It was just what the air 1233 01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:14,560 Speaker 3: what the airplane thought, and it you know, it worked. 1234 01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:21,840 Speaker 3: McKenzie saw. I attended a lecture by Lou Adler. Okay, 1235 01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:25,840 Speaker 3: so what happened with Monterey where the roots of Monterey 1236 01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:32,920 Speaker 3: was in the fall of sixty six, there were a 1237 01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:36,519 Speaker 3: number of clubs, music clubs on the Sunset Strip where 1238 01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:41,360 Speaker 3: there was about a mile long strip of many clubs, 1239 01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:48,960 Speaker 3: and the kids thronged the clubs fair enough, and local 1240 01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:53,479 Speaker 3: business owners didn't you know. It created traffic jams. There's LA. 1241 01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:57,839 Speaker 3: Well that's a new thing in La, traffic jams. But anyway, 1242 01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:02,920 Speaker 3: they they have acted and in the fall of sixty six, 1243 01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:08,640 Speaker 3: Ronald Reagan, Conservative is elected governor. So the LAPD decides 1244 01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:12,200 Speaker 3: to kind of crack down on all this traffic and 1245 01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:16,160 Speaker 3: they start arresting people and these kids don't appreciate it 1246 01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:22,720 Speaker 3: and resist, not violently. Any violence was the cops, but 1247 01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:27,160 Speaker 3: they so they were called the Censet Strip riots. Well, 1248 01:31:27,240 --> 01:31:30,519 Speaker 3: you know, again, it's easy to call the riots. These 1249 01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:34,080 Speaker 3: were nineteen year olds sitting down on the street and 1250 01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:42,320 Speaker 3: getting arrested, and people in the rock scene, in particular 1251 01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:46,080 Speaker 3: the manager of the Birds and Derek Taylor, who was 1252 01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:48,280 Speaker 3: the publicist for the Birds, who had been the publicist 1253 01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:52,160 Speaker 3: for the Beatles that was kind of a charismatic figure 1254 01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:58,680 Speaker 3: in LA and others created a campaign, you know, to 1255 01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:03,000 Speaker 3: resid that, to resist the idea that these kids were 1256 01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:08,160 Speaker 3: causing riots. And they had a benefit in February, and 1257 01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:12,639 Speaker 3: then they decided to plan another benefit, a bigger show 1258 01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:20,000 Speaker 3: in Monterey in June. Louis, I mean they go, the 1259 01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:24,320 Speaker 3: organizers go to the sort of reigning king and queen 1260 01:32:24,400 --> 01:32:27,479 Speaker 3: of rock and roll in LA at that moment, rock 1261 01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:31,759 Speaker 3: and roll but music, John and Michelle Phillips of Mamas 1262 01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:36,519 Speaker 3: and the Pappas, who were tremendously popular, and they loved 1263 01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:38,479 Speaker 3: the idea, and they said, no, let's turn it into 1264 01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:41,400 Speaker 3: a benefit. The only person that was paid at Monterey 1265 01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:44,040 Speaker 3: was Robbie Shankark because they had signed his contract early 1266 01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:48,920 Speaker 3: and earliest and they had, you know, they acknowledged it. Otherwise, 1267 01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:51,759 Speaker 3: they bought out that people who had invested the early 1268 01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:56,560 Speaker 3: money and went to work and they created the festival. 1269 01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:00,680 Speaker 3: Now I had the pleasure of listening to or talk 1270 01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:05,320 Speaker 3: about all this and among other things, for what it's worth, 1271 01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:12,679 Speaker 3: he denied the idea that the Scott McKenzie song written 1272 01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:16,960 Speaker 3: by John Phillips was kind of an advertisement for Monterey Pop. 1273 01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:22,120 Speaker 3: It's the only time he spoke that I went, I don't, well, 1274 01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:28,000 Speaker 3: I just it's kind of too perfect an invitation a promo. 1275 01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:32,240 Speaker 3: You know, really, you know, really you didn't that didn't 1276 01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:35,200 Speaker 3: occur to you because you certainly engaged when that came out. 1277 01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:39,160 Speaker 3: They were engaged with the creation of Monterey Leave it, 1278 01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:42,519 Speaker 3: you know, leave that as it as it is. Certainly 1279 01:33:42,560 --> 01:33:46,439 Speaker 3: that song had that impact of attracting, you know, more 1280 01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:50,120 Speaker 3: people to San Francisco and in particular to the festival. 1281 01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:58,519 Speaker 3: So what happened was very quickly they they realize that 1282 01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:00,640 Speaker 3: what they're really doing, what they're really going to be 1283 01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:05,520 Speaker 3: doing at Monterey's celebrating psychedelic music. That's their their advertising 1284 01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:08,840 Speaker 3: is about, you know, bring bring bells, bring flowers, you know, 1285 01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:14,639 Speaker 3: be a hippie. And they run into a problem because, 1286 01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:17,639 Speaker 3: among other things, The Grateful the Grateful Dead and other 1287 01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:21,960 Speaker 3: bands from San Francisco are very very puristic and they 1288 01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:24,360 Speaker 3: wanted to be free, and it's like, well, you know, 1289 01:34:24,400 --> 01:34:27,559 Speaker 3: how do how do we pay for the stage? And 1290 01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:33,160 Speaker 3: long story short, this wonderful, weird thing happened, which was 1291 01:34:33,400 --> 01:34:36,200 Speaker 3: one of the they had a board which included people 1292 01:34:36,240 --> 01:34:41,559 Speaker 3: like Smokey Robinson and Paul Simon, and because of Derek Taylor, 1293 01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:48,280 Speaker 3: Paul McCartney McCartney. After they finished recording Uh Sergeant Pepper, 1294 01:34:48,360 --> 01:34:51,439 Speaker 3: he took a brief vacation, went to l A was 1295 01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:54,920 Speaker 3: hanging out with Derek and started telling them about this 1296 01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:59,760 Speaker 3: fantastic new music, new musician in London by the name 1297 01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:04,360 Speaker 3: of Amy Hendricks. So they go okay, and they already 1298 01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:07,960 Speaker 3: had thought about the who. And then there is this 1299 01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:10,800 Speaker 3: friction with the San Francisco bands, who are, as I say, 1300 01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:16,120 Speaker 3: are very puristic and very suspicious, just inherently suspicious of 1301 01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:23,160 Speaker 3: Lou Adler and John Phillips. And what happens is John 1302 01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:27,639 Speaker 3: gets Paul Simon, who is also on the board and 1303 01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:30,040 Speaker 3: who the hippies are a fond of because he had 1304 01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:32,719 Speaker 3: written a song called Feeling Groovy. I know this sounds 1305 01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:36,280 Speaker 3: maybe even a little ridiculous, but they trusted Paul because 1306 01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:40,679 Speaker 3: of that song. And Paul literally comes to San Francisco 1307 01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:45,439 Speaker 3: and talks with everybody and as as Rock Scully wrote 1308 01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:49,479 Speaker 3: in his memoir, and Paul convinced them that, you know, 1309 01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:51,920 Speaker 3: it was too good idea, an idea to pass up. 1310 01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:59,320 Speaker 3: Go So they went, and of course the airplane among others. 1311 01:35:59,640 --> 01:36:06,400 Speaker 3: The Grateful Dead had the wonderful experience of playing in 1312 01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:11,840 Speaker 3: between The Who their American debut virtually American debut, and 1313 01:36:11,920 --> 01:36:16,519 Speaker 3: Jimmy Hendrix's American debut, which means actually one of the 1314 01:36:16,560 --> 01:36:19,760 Speaker 3: critics said that some of the guitar playing in the 1315 01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:21,559 Speaker 3: Grateful Dead set was some of the best in the 1316 01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:24,519 Speaker 3: in the weekend, he for whatever reason did not really 1317 01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:29,200 Speaker 3: dig Hendricks. But of course, as I have written several times, 1318 01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:33,280 Speaker 3: who would remember, you know, between those two two sets, 1319 01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:36,960 Speaker 3: it was, you know, very minor. But what happened at 1320 01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:42,800 Speaker 3: Monterey was well a number of things. I listed four heroes, 1321 01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:46,880 Speaker 3: four or five heroes. The first hero was the audience, which, 1322 01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:51,639 Speaker 3: as I said, was overwhelming and yet you know all 1323 01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:57,400 Speaker 3: that you could ask from an audience. The second was 1324 01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:00,519 Speaker 3: Janis Joplin and Big Brother, Who's again was one of 1325 01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:05,320 Speaker 3: those purest. In the last little while before the event, 1326 01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:09,720 Speaker 3: John Adler had made a deal with d H. D 1327 01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:13,840 Speaker 3: a pennamaker who had done the just released Don't Look Back, 1328 01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:19,320 Speaker 3: which was the documentary about Dylan brilliant, brilliant movie, and 1329 01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:23,719 Speaker 3: asked him to shoot, well, you know that smells movies money, 1330 01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:26,400 Speaker 3: and the San Francisco bands were all saying, no, we 1331 01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:31,000 Speaker 3: won't be in the movie, and the grateful Dad never worked. 1332 01:37:31,360 --> 01:37:34,200 Speaker 3: The Airplane was managed by Bill Graham, who was a 1333 01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:37,519 Speaker 3: little smarter, and he said, be in the movie. So 1334 01:37:38,160 --> 01:37:40,640 Speaker 3: the air the Big Brother, which was managed by a 1335 01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:43,639 Speaker 3: guy named Julius Carpen who was an ex prankster and 1336 01:37:44,439 --> 01:37:49,120 Speaker 3: as purest as anybody else. They they do their set, 1337 01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:51,639 Speaker 3: they ripped the place apart. I mean, you know, Janie 1338 01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:55,120 Speaker 3: is just Jannish Dooplin, and nobody had heard of them 1339 01:37:55,160 --> 01:37:58,200 Speaker 3: outside of San Francisco at that point. They hadn't released 1340 01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:02,439 Speaker 3: an album, and it was just shocked to the a 1341 01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:06,719 Speaker 3: pleasant shock to the system. They come off the stage 1342 01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:12,599 Speaker 3: and Pennebaker is like begging them to be in the movie. 1343 01:38:13,800 --> 01:38:16,320 Speaker 3: And of course the cameras were down when they were 1344 01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:22,200 Speaker 3: when they did the set. So Albert Grossman, who's after all, 1345 01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:28,160 Speaker 3: Bob Dylan's manager Capital you know all Caps, says you know. 1346 01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:30,920 Speaker 3: They go to him and they say, you know, should 1347 01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:33,400 Speaker 3: we be in the movie, And Albert says, be in 1348 01:38:33,439 --> 01:38:39,200 Speaker 3: the movie. It'll do you good. And so they overrule 1349 01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:43,439 Speaker 3: their manager and they get a second set on Sunday, 1350 01:38:44,240 --> 01:38:49,439 Speaker 3: evening and rip up the place again and that's that's 1351 01:38:49,479 --> 01:38:53,080 Speaker 3: boom one uh and and it's a set boom too, 1352 01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:57,880 Speaker 3: and it's a you know, it's an enormous flash the airplane. 1353 01:38:58,040 --> 01:39:00,560 Speaker 3: And it's really interesting. Even even Grace Slick, who was 1354 01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:03,720 Speaker 3: among the more critical people on the planet and who 1355 01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:09,400 Speaker 3: rarely raved about her own performance or the band's performance, 1356 01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:15,599 Speaker 3: was just ecstatic that day. It just connected. It was magic. 1357 01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:22,240 Speaker 3: And so that's boom two three, boom four is And 1358 01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:25,479 Speaker 3: I might add that the number one song at the 1359 01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:31,400 Speaker 3: time of Monterey Pop was Aretha Franklin's Respect and standing 1360 01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:35,440 Speaker 3: in for Her and jam and all of the incredible 1361 01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:40,840 Speaker 3: black music of that period, whether it was motown or 1362 01:39:41,439 --> 01:39:45,599 Speaker 3: in this case Stacks. Vote is Otis read it again, 1363 01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:48,639 Speaker 3: a guy that most you know, not so many white 1364 01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:54,040 Speaker 3: people are so terribly afraid of, and otis redding Kills. 1365 01:39:54,560 --> 01:40:00,880 Speaker 3: And that's boom whatever it is. And finally the two 1366 01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:05,080 Speaker 3: final which is the Who which played on Sunday Night 1367 01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:13,200 Speaker 3: and the Dead which and then Jimmy Hendricks and there's 1368 01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:18,840 Speaker 3: a wonderful story about that that I found, which was that, yeah, 1369 01:40:19,240 --> 01:40:21,360 Speaker 3: the Gravel that were not the only people that played 1370 01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:26,679 Speaker 3: on LSD and Jimmy. Jimmy Hendricks was certainly a great fan. 1371 01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:32,080 Speaker 3: And he Ousley is there and he's passing out to 1372 01:40:32,080 --> 01:40:39,320 Speaker 3: these incredibly strong doses of LSD and Jimmy takes a handful. 1373 01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:42,800 Speaker 3: I mean the guy. The witness said at least three 1374 01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:45,880 Speaker 3: or four, I mean, you know, and he's like, he 1375 01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:48,720 Speaker 3: goes down. He's just crumpled in the corner. He looks like, 1376 01:40:49,040 --> 01:40:52,719 Speaker 3: you know, dirty laundry. And his time on stage comes 1377 01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:56,559 Speaker 3: and two crew members come up, pick him up, walk 1378 01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:58,240 Speaker 3: him out, and as he hits the stage, he turns 1379 01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:03,040 Speaker 3: into Jimmy Hendrix. You know, God only knows, and rips 1380 01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:06,360 Speaker 3: the place apart. As you know. It's just it's one 1381 01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:11,160 Speaker 3: of the more extraordinary introductions of a talent. This is 1382 01:41:11,200 --> 01:41:19,400 Speaker 3: his first significant show in America and it's the beginning 1383 01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:24,000 Speaker 3: of what was a all too short, you know, genius 1384 01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:28,760 Speaker 3: genius career. I might add that the mamas and the 1385 01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:31,880 Speaker 3: papas closed the show, and I don't know how many 1386 01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:34,880 Speaker 3: I've always wondered how many people stayed in their seats 1387 01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:38,360 Speaker 3: to wait for them after Jimmy, because you know, how 1388 01:41:38,360 --> 01:41:41,640 Speaker 3: do you follow that? You know, you can't. That's one 1389 01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:44,720 Speaker 3: of the reasons by the way that the who preceded 1390 01:41:44,760 --> 01:41:48,719 Speaker 3: them because Pete Townsend had seen Jimmy Hendrix in London 1391 01:41:49,360 --> 01:41:52,479 Speaker 3: and did not want to follow it, and so they 1392 01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:56,400 Speaker 3: flipped a coin and Pete won and said, no, we'll 1393 01:41:56,400 --> 01:41:59,920 Speaker 3: go first. We'll do fine. Now you do your thing. 1394 01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:09,639 Speaker 2: Okay. To what degree does an underground alternative universe still exist? 1395 01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:14,680 Speaker 2: Into what degree is it or not in San Francisco. 1396 01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:22,960 Speaker 3: When you're talking about today twenty twenty five. Yes, yeah, 1397 01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:26,120 Speaker 3: I don't know if there's an underground universe. 1398 01:42:27,560 --> 01:42:28,160 Speaker 2: There is. 1399 01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:31,200 Speaker 3: As I say, so many of the issues of the 1400 01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:34,720 Speaker 3: sixties that came into prominence in the sixties, there are 1401 01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:44,600 Speaker 3: issues that go way way back. Alternative viewpoints about America. 1402 01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:47,919 Speaker 3: Is it a universe? I don't know. It's a collection 1403 01:42:48,000 --> 01:42:54,320 Speaker 3: of ideas that many, many people hold on to. I mean, 1404 01:42:55,320 --> 01:43:03,040 Speaker 3: we have a putting it politely and extremely extremely conservative administration, 1405 01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:07,920 Speaker 3: and all the numbers say that it's not a universal 1406 01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:11,320 Speaker 3: viewpoint by any means. It acts like it's a universal viewpoint. 1407 01:43:11,360 --> 01:43:15,680 Speaker 3: It ignores alternative viewpoints, it represses alternative viewpoints, which is 1408 01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:20,479 Speaker 3: the shocking and Unamerican thing about it. But you know, 1409 01:43:21,040 --> 01:43:26,519 Speaker 3: most people don't think that, you know, all immigrants are 1410 01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:30,840 Speaker 3: evil and should be immediately evicted, etc. I could make 1411 01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:34,320 Speaker 3: a list, a long, long list, so as I say, 1412 01:43:34,880 --> 01:43:40,280 Speaker 3: other than for instance, dead heads, who are very real, 1413 01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:44,120 Speaker 3: very you know, quite a lot of them, and many 1414 01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:48,200 Speaker 3: of them, you know, we're not born when Jerry Garcia died. 1415 01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:53,120 Speaker 3: And yet I've talked with a lot of them, and 1416 01:43:53,320 --> 01:43:55,519 Speaker 3: they basically they get I mean, you know, they get 1417 01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:58,599 Speaker 3: what the Grateful deads stand for. They don't know much 1418 01:43:58,640 --> 01:44:00,719 Speaker 3: about the history of the Grateful Dead, but they definitely 1419 01:44:00,960 --> 01:44:06,440 Speaker 3: got to read my book. But they they absolutely grasp 1420 01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:14,839 Speaker 3: the notion of community, of peacefulness, of you know, standing 1421 01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:21,200 Speaker 3: against racism, and uh, you know it's it's it's not 1422 01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:25,040 Speaker 3: like it's gone at the moment. You know, the other side, 1423 01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:28,080 Speaker 3: if that's the way it is, is getting you know, 1424 01:44:28,760 --> 01:44:30,880 Speaker 3: has all the power and is getting a lot more 1425 01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:34,760 Speaker 3: pr but it's not, you know, it's not everybody. 1426 01:44:35,720 --> 01:44:40,840 Speaker 2: Okay, music drove the culture in this era. Let's just 1427 01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:44,880 Speaker 2: even say the whole decade was that a moment in 1428 01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:49,720 Speaker 2: time and many stars aligned. You know, how do you 1429 01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:51,400 Speaker 2: do it with radio? I don't want to go through 1430 01:44:51,400 --> 01:44:58,880 Speaker 2: a whole litany now. You say the ideas remain, Is 1431 01:44:58,920 --> 01:45:03,120 Speaker 2: it that we don't have the right music speaking to 1432 01:45:03,240 --> 01:45:08,040 Speaker 2: these ideas, or is it that was a moment. In 1433 01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:10,559 Speaker 2: that moment may or may not return, but it's not 1434 01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:11,280 Speaker 2: happening now. 1435 01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:15,640 Speaker 3: I'd say the latter that that that was, it was 1436 01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:18,679 Speaker 3: an extraordinary moment. You're absolutely right. 1437 01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:19,040 Speaker 2: Uh. 1438 01:45:19,120 --> 01:45:24,559 Speaker 3: You know, music became the convey the container for all 1439 01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:28,240 Speaker 3: those values, going back to rex Roth and Duncan, the 1440 01:45:28,320 --> 01:45:35,280 Speaker 3: values again of non violence and and just generally of 1441 01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:40,880 Speaker 3: of a freedom of thought and sensuality and so forth. 1442 01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:46,360 Speaker 3: And it connected with LSDA, connected with with rock and roll, 1443 01:45:46,720 --> 01:45:51,439 Speaker 3: connected with volume. There's something about LSD and volume that link. 1444 01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:59,559 Speaker 3: I'm I'm not a scientist, but uh. And as you say, 1445 01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:05,639 Speaker 3: music was the binding agent for my general our generation. 1446 01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:08,200 Speaker 3: That is this, you know, the mid late sixties and 1447 01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:15,000 Speaker 3: into the well into the seventies, and eventually, as all 1448 01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:20,000 Speaker 3: things must, it loses its juice. It became a little 1449 01:46:20,120 --> 01:46:24,720 Speaker 3: artificial what they called arena rock, which is, you know, 1450 01:46:25,200 --> 01:46:28,760 Speaker 3: among other things, not improvisational. It's it's it's showbiz theater, 1451 01:46:30,040 --> 01:46:33,599 Speaker 3: which for many, you know, was great, but it did 1452 01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:39,680 Speaker 3: not have quite the purity of the earlier efforts. And 1453 01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:41,840 Speaker 3: then there's a reaction to it and it's called punk 1454 01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:45,960 Speaker 3: and you know, not unreasonable and very anti virtuosic, among 1455 01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:53,800 Speaker 3: other things. And yes, I think that, among other things, 1456 01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:58,639 Speaker 3: in addition to being the container rock music galvanized all 1457 01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:03,880 Speaker 3: that stuff into sex, drugs and rock and roll that 1458 01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:07,800 Speaker 3: people really, you know, that that was a motivating force 1459 01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:12,600 Speaker 3: for a whole bunch of people, including me. Now I 1460 01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:15,080 Speaker 3: might add that because I was in the backwoods of 1461 01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:21,200 Speaker 3: Maine in high school, graduating in sixty seven, and then 1462 01:47:21,439 --> 01:47:23,680 Speaker 3: college in upstate New York, I missed all of it, 1463 01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:26,240 Speaker 3: which is apparently why I spent the last fifty years 1464 01:47:26,240 --> 01:47:31,200 Speaker 3: researching it, researching these stories, because you know, I wasn't 1465 01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:35,479 Speaker 3: there for the party. But you know, I do think 1466 01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:40,960 Speaker 3: that that the music did galvanize things, united people and 1467 01:47:41,840 --> 01:47:45,960 Speaker 3: whatever you say about current music. And I have you know, 1468 01:47:46,280 --> 01:47:52,920 Speaker 3: great respect for Taylor Sweat, for instance, it's not overtly 1469 01:47:53,000 --> 01:48:00,439 Speaker 3: at least certainly about an alternative culture, although she's certainly 1470 01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:06,400 Speaker 3: not worshiping it at the feet of the current current reality. 1471 01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:10,000 Speaker 2: Okay, so what's your favorite Grateful Dead album? 1472 01:48:13,560 --> 01:48:15,560 Speaker 3: Probably Live Dead. 1473 01:48:15,720 --> 01:48:19,200 Speaker 2: Which lead with the original Live Dead, the one before 1474 01:48:19,240 --> 01:48:20,439 Speaker 2: Working Man's Dead. 1475 01:48:21,240 --> 01:48:25,200 Speaker 3: Right exactly. The Live Dead was a you know, a 1476 01:48:25,240 --> 01:48:29,879 Speaker 3: live album. It's the first I believe sixteen track live albums, 1477 01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:34,080 Speaker 3: so it has you know, extraordinary sound and it's them 1478 01:48:34,280 --> 01:48:40,960 Speaker 3: at their most experimental and highly improvisational. I mean there 1479 01:48:40,960 --> 01:48:42,960 Speaker 3: are songs that go on for you know, thirty minutes 1480 01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:46,920 Speaker 3: with one minute of singing and twenty nine minutes of improvisation, 1481 01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:51,920 Speaker 3: and you know, that's sort of my my fave. There's 1482 01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:58,120 Speaker 3: a second album that they did that I really really love, 1483 01:48:58,720 --> 01:49:02,639 Speaker 3: and it's in part because it was the classic Grateful Dead, 1484 01:49:02,840 --> 01:49:05,760 Speaker 3: you know, weird. They finally took a year off and 1485 01:49:05,840 --> 01:49:09,439 Speaker 3: during their vacation in nineteen seventy five, they recorded this. 1486 01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:13,240 Speaker 3: They started recording this album very slow, you know, kind 1487 01:49:13,280 --> 01:49:15,880 Speaker 3: of just with They went into the studio with nothing. 1488 01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:19,400 Speaker 3: They just started seeing what was there and it's called 1489 01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:24,080 Speaker 3: Blues for Allah and some wonderful stuff there. And then, 1490 01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:28,840 Speaker 3: in classic Grateful Dead fashion, they had gotten into it. 1491 01:49:28,880 --> 01:49:32,719 Speaker 3: They had some marvelous material. And then their record company, 1492 01:49:32,760 --> 01:49:36,960 Speaker 3: which at the time was themselves, basically their record company 1493 01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:39,040 Speaker 3: guy comes to them and says, we have to have 1494 01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:41,040 Speaker 3: the album. In three weeks we signed a contract. Blah 1495 01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:44,000 Speaker 3: blah blah, which is a typical Grateful Dead business, you know, 1496 01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:48,040 Speaker 3: very bad business decision they made a lot of If 1497 01:49:48,080 --> 01:49:53,400 Speaker 3: they'd spent three more months, that album might be remembered 1498 01:49:53,520 --> 01:49:56,360 Speaker 3: very differently. But you know that's them, Okay. 1499 01:49:56,720 --> 01:50:01,400 Speaker 2: In the gatefold cover of Live Dead, it's the Grateful 1500 01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:06,280 Speaker 2: Dead playing in a street. What is the background in 1501 01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:07,759 Speaker 2: story of that photo. 1502 01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:13,280 Speaker 3: It's a marvelous photo. It's by Jim Marshall, who's the 1503 01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:17,599 Speaker 3: great photographer, one of the great photographers ever and certainly 1504 01:50:17,840 --> 01:50:22,400 Speaker 3: a great photographer of the San Francisco scene. It's on 1505 01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:27,840 Speaker 3: H Street and this is in the spring I want 1506 01:50:27,880 --> 01:50:32,679 Speaker 3: to say, of sixty if I recall correctly, of sixty eight. 1507 01:50:33,040 --> 01:50:36,000 Speaker 3: Actually so, it's a slightly old, a year old picture. 1508 01:50:38,960 --> 01:50:41,400 Speaker 3: And what happened was that in the fall of sixty seven, 1509 01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:46,439 Speaker 3: two horrible things happened. One was that briefly gray Lines, 1510 01:50:46,520 --> 01:50:51,760 Speaker 3: the tourist bus people created what they call the Hippie Hop, 1511 01:50:51,800 --> 01:50:57,479 Speaker 3: which was a bus tour of the hate, which is, 1512 01:50:57,520 --> 01:50:59,720 Speaker 3: you know, you can imagine being in the Grateful Dead, 1513 01:50:59,720 --> 01:51:02,439 Speaker 3: and way up to and on your left is a 1514 01:51:02,840 --> 01:51:06,400 Speaker 3: is the home of the Grateful Oh my god. In addition, 1515 01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:12,400 Speaker 3: in October, after the visitors of the summer sort of 1516 01:51:12,439 --> 01:51:17,160 Speaker 3: you know, slowed down the San Francisco Police Department raided 1517 01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:19,240 Speaker 3: a number of homes, one of which was the Bedful 1518 01:51:19,320 --> 01:51:26,000 Speaker 3: deads for pot in the city and the bust among 1519 01:51:26,040 --> 01:51:28,320 Speaker 3: other you know, persuaded the dead that maybe it was 1520 01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:32,280 Speaker 3: time to leave the hate. I might add that the 1521 01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:34,519 Speaker 3: two people that they the band member, they were arrested. 1522 01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:37,160 Speaker 3: Everybody that was in the house, which was mostly non 1523 01:51:37,240 --> 01:51:39,200 Speaker 3: band members. There were two people that were in the 1524 01:51:39,240 --> 01:51:42,320 Speaker 3: house that were band members. Didn't smoke pot, pig pan 1525 01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:45,479 Speaker 3: and bob wear, but leave it be. They also missed 1526 01:51:46,120 --> 01:51:48,880 Speaker 3: a kilo that was in the kitchen cabinet, but they 1527 01:51:48,880 --> 01:51:52,479 Speaker 3: did find one hundred dollars bill in somebody's desk, which 1528 01:51:53,400 --> 01:51:59,360 Speaker 3: amazingly was was not there the next day. And so, 1529 01:51:59,560 --> 01:52:02,120 Speaker 3: as I say, they decided, you know, may maybe it's 1530 01:52:02,120 --> 01:52:04,519 Speaker 3: time to go. And bit by bit the band members 1531 01:52:04,520 --> 01:52:08,000 Speaker 3: start going to Marin and you know, h no longer 1532 01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:13,400 Speaker 3: living communally, and you know, that's fine, but they wanted 1533 01:52:13,400 --> 01:52:20,599 Speaker 3: to say goodbye. So they plot and uh, the word 1534 01:52:20,680 --> 01:52:25,679 Speaker 3: goes out underground that they're going to play on such 1535 01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:31,080 Speaker 3: and such a date, and with the cooperation of a 1536 01:52:31,160 --> 01:52:35,960 Speaker 3: cop that knew them and that they liked, the city 1537 01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:40,640 Speaker 3: had blocked off the street because just generally it was 1538 01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:45,519 Speaker 3: going to be a block party, and suddenly from two 1539 01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:50,280 Speaker 3: different directions they pull in flatbed trucks loaded with their 1540 01:52:50,280 --> 01:52:58,160 Speaker 3: gear and start playing. And of course there's that marvelous 1541 01:52:58,160 --> 01:53:00,800 Speaker 3: picture of you know, people as far as the eye 1542 01:53:00,840 --> 01:53:04,120 Speaker 3: can see down h Street, the tops of every house 1543 01:53:04,120 --> 01:53:08,920 Speaker 3: that looked down, you know, the windows and whatnot, and 1544 01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:13,560 Speaker 3: it's it's it's a it's a celebration, and it's a 1545 01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:18,320 Speaker 3: goodbye and worked like a charm. 1546 01:53:18,680 --> 01:53:22,320 Speaker 2: And what is the personal best grateful dead show that 1547 01:53:22,400 --> 01:53:23,920 Speaker 2: you were actually at. 1548 01:53:25,920 --> 01:53:30,439 Speaker 3: I don't know about a whole show. You know, for me, 1549 01:53:31,960 --> 01:53:39,480 Speaker 3: the most enthralled and just mind blown at the virtuosity 1550 01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:44,960 Speaker 3: that I ever heard was a show I'm gonna be 1551 01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:48,160 Speaker 3: such a dead hit here on I want to say 1552 01:53:48,200 --> 01:53:52,280 Speaker 3: June thirtieth, nineteen seventy four, which was the wall of sound, 1553 01:53:52,320 --> 01:53:54,040 Speaker 3: which had something to do with it because it was 1554 01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:57,600 Speaker 3: listening to it was an extraordinary experience, even though I 1555 01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:02,519 Speaker 3: was inside. And they ended the first set with a 1556 01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:07,519 Speaker 3: forty five minute jam of playing in the band into 1557 01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:11,400 Speaker 3: Uncle John's band into playing in the band, and I 1558 01:54:11,800 --> 01:54:16,320 Speaker 3: just my jaw dropped almost I mean, you know, my 1559 01:54:16,400 --> 01:54:19,599 Speaker 3: jaw dropped a fair number of times. The first time 1560 01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:22,240 Speaker 3: I heard Dark Star, you know, blah blah blah, but 1561 01:54:22,360 --> 01:54:25,400 Speaker 3: this was just so sustained. It was just so they 1562 01:54:25,439 --> 01:54:30,439 Speaker 3: were so on top of it that, you know, yeah, 1563 01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:33,480 Speaker 3: go good, you know. And I haven't listened to it since, 1564 01:54:33,520 --> 01:54:36,400 Speaker 3: I don't think, but at any rate, I would recommend 1565 01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:39,520 Speaker 3: that anybody if you want to hear Grateful Dad at 1566 01:54:39,560 --> 01:54:42,120 Speaker 3: what I think, for what it's worth, is there some 1567 01:54:42,200 --> 01:54:44,480 Speaker 3: of their finest that would be the moment. 1568 01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:49,440 Speaker 2: Okay, I've been talking to Dennis McNally, whose new book 1569 01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:53,320 Speaker 2: is The Last Great Dream. He talks about the music 1570 01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:57,080 Speaker 2: in San Francisco, but the roots of music and hippie 1571 01:54:57,120 --> 01:55:00,840 Speaker 2: dumb and hate Ashbury. Dennis, I want to thank you 1572 01:55:00,880 --> 01:55:03,960 Speaker 2: so much for taking this time with my audience. 1573 01:55:04,320 --> 01:55:06,400 Speaker 3: My pleasure. I've been you know, I've been reading your 1574 01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:09,200 Speaker 3: your stuff for a very long time and enjoying it. 1575 01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:15,000 Speaker 3: Somebody asked me what your names first started getting around, 1576 01:55:15,000 --> 01:55:17,720 Speaker 3: and somebody says, have you been reading left sets? And 1577 01:55:17,720 --> 01:55:21,040 Speaker 3: I said, yeah, he's you know, he's pointing out that 1578 01:55:21,080 --> 01:55:24,120 Speaker 3: the record companies don't have a clue. Gee. We knew that, 1579 01:55:24,400 --> 01:55:26,200 Speaker 3: but you know, somebody said it. 1580 01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:31,840 Speaker 2: And on that note, we're needed for today till next time. 1581 01:55:32,040 --> 01:55:33,480 Speaker 2: This is Bob left sex