WEBVTT - 255. The psychology of misogyny ft. Hannah Ferguson 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.320 Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:07.320 the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.000 the world, it is so great to have you here 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.280 back for another episode, as we, of course break down 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.680 the psychology of our twenties on today's episode for our 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:17.600 twelve days of guests, I want to talk about something 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.560 that I have really wanted to speak to since the 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.840 day I started this podcast. I remember this very topic 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:26.880 being on my first ever list of topics that I 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.160 wanted to cover, and it's still been on that list 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.479 since twenty twenty one, but I knew I needed to 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:33.279 find the right guests to talk about it. Today, we're 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.279 finally getting to it. We're going to be tackling a 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:40.040 topic that runs very deep, which is sexism or misogyny 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:43.720 in our twenties, in our workplaces, in our friendships, in dating, 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.800 but also our own internalized misogyny and how to deal 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.800 with that. What are some of the psychological consequences of 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.400 experiencing misogyny during this decade? How do you put your 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.360 foot down? How do you stand up for yourself when 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.800 you don't feel like you have power? What does it 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.200 mean when other women tear each other down. Why do 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.959 we criticize each other. There's so many behaviors and beliefs 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.640 and systems attached to this, but at the end of 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.440 the day, it is quite a psychological experience. It's rooted 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.800 in social structures and messaging that has been ingrained in 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.720 us since a young age. And I'm really excited to 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:24.200 explore the psychology behind these patterns and this experience, and 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:28.960 also to welcome on our amazing expert guest, a friend 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.880 of the show, Hannah ferguson Friend of the Show. I 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:33.119 love that, Dah. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:34.759 I am a friend of the show genuinely. 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.000 Yeah. Before this we were just having like a massive, 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.000 massive chat. Then we be like, wait, we actually have 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:39.560 a job to do. 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:41.720 Yeah, and that's crazy because we're in the depths right 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.119 now of each other's personal lives. Let's snap back into 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:45.560 reality and get into the questions. 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.000 I love that energy, though, I know, I know this 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.640 is like true female bonding. Like we're talking about misogyny 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:52.840 and there's like none of it here, so it's not 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.960 present in the room with us right now, no, I know. Also, 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.000 it's so nice to have an Australian guest on. But 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.880 I'm so privileged to be here, thank you, and we're 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.480 the same room for once. I know, I think this 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.800 never happens with the guests like you, very very rarely 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.959 can you tell the listeners a little bit about who 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.920 you are, what you do, if it's like a complete 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.440 wrap sheet, and how you got here. 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:18.440 So I am the founder and CEO of Cheek Media Co. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.320 Which is mainly a sort of news commentary platform for 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.760 left wing opinions through Instagram so at cheekmedia dot Co. 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.200 I'm also the co host of news and pop culture 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.280 podcast Big Small Talk. And I'm the best selling author 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.239 of bite Back and my new book Taboo has just 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.720 come out as well, and that's really about sex, dating 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.119 relationships and like what it means to be a woman 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:39.120 in twenty twenty four. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.520 And bite Back for those of you who have not 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.000 read that book, incredible. My mum read that book. Oh 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.040 that's really nice. I thought it for her and she 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:47.400 was like, this is incredible. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:48.760 Ah, I love that. 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:50.880 And bite Back it's a book about feminism. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.240 Yeah, it's a book about like feminism, media and politics 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:54.720 and how we change the systems. 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.639 Yeah, which is literally the perfect segue into what we're 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.040 talking about today, which is misogyny and of course you 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.240 talk about this a lot, both on cheek but also 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:06.160 on a podcast. 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:06.800 In your books. 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:12.079 I want to really begin by focusing on misogyny from 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.640 women to women, yep, because I think that's like the 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.760 most complex issue that I wrap my head around. Is like, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:24.880 you kind of expect misogyny from men at times, but 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.040 never from someone perhaps of your same gender, who understands 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.360 your experience. How do you think it kind of looks different? 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.360 What do we like typically expect misogyny to look like 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.000 versus what are the ways that we actually encounter it? 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.360 Yeah, and like for people, And I think it's really 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:42.920 important to make the note at the start that misogyny 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.760 is the hatred of women, of femininity, of these sort 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.320 of traits that we consider and associate with women and girls. 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.920 And I think that needs to be really contrast against sexism, 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.320 which is just a singular act. So misogyny is this 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.880 deep rooted hatred, right, and when it's experienced to all ourselves, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.200 when it's experienced towards other women, as women and girls, 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:08.880 it's called internalized misogyny because we are internalizing a system 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.120 of patriarchy that has conditioned us to see women and 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.800 girls as less than less than men, and it's anyone 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.960 who really it's it's the gender spectrum, it's people who 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.520 are not men, and how we are treated as less 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.039 than as inequal to men, and then how we apply 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:27.839 that kind of thinking that has been conditioned into us 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.520 since birth towards ourselves and other women and girls. So 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.440 it could be, and there's there's so many examples of this, 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.159 but I would say, like the beauty industry and body 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.919 image standards, the way we feel about ourselves and treat 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.400 ourselves about our bodies, that's an active internalized misogyny. The 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.760 way that we judge other women. And I'm not saying 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.080 just general judgment. Of course, we're going to have natural 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.680 judgment and criticism for others, but internalized misogyny is really 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:58.599 focusing on feminized parts of ourselves and qualities, traits, behaviors 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:03.400 that patriarch key shames and oppresses, those things in other 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.159 women that we critique. So maybe the way someone wears 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.080 their hair, the way someone does their makeup, their body, 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.760 their opinion on feminism, the way that we treat other 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.680 women in those senses is internalized misogyny coming out. 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.960 And I really like how you pointed out that it's 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.800 almost a hatred of things that are typically female. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:25.520 Yeah. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.479 So it's not like, oh, I hate their body the 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.520 way that oh, you know, I'm judging their body the 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.119 way that you can judge anyone's body. It's I'm judging 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.039 their body because they are a woman, or because of 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.760 something about them that seems feminine or seems maybe sexual. 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.080 So it's like, you know, it's a double standard. That's 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.440 the word that always is like is it the heart 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.400 of any conversation around this. There is one world for 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.360 women and girls, people who identify as women, and then 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.840 there is this other world for people who aren't women, 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:55.440 who are men. 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.200 The standard is raised, there's a different set of criteria. 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.120 There's things that you notice every single day and apply 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.360 criticism to that you would never focus on for men. 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.640 And it feels so weird when that's coming from another woman. Yes, 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:08.760 Like it's so strange when you're like, wait, I thought 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:10.000 we were meant to be like buddies. 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.479 Yeah, oh my god. And it's you can you can 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:14.039 feel it in your bones when I'm talking about it. 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.039 You know, when you go to a you know, a 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.039 lunch with your family and your grandma points out that 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.520 you've put on weight, or that you're eating too much, 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.320 or that your skirt or your hair or something ripped jeans. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.720 Like there's so many examples of like different qualities, traits, 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.719 behaviors again that are like you would never see that 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.000 happen to your your brother, your cousin who's male. Like 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.080 you can see and feel the difference in the moment 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:37.400 about the standard women are held to. 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.880 Have you ever had any experiences of this? Like have 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.240 you ever like it's a rhetorical question the run sheet, Yeah, yeah, 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.200 Like what was your reaction though, you know, being torn 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:51.919 down by another woman? And obviously you have like an 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:56.719 online presence, right, it happens all the time. Yeah, was 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.799 it pity? Anger, or like sadness? What's the main emotional 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:00.760 action for you? 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.280 I feel like there's obviously like a spectrum and like 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:05.440 a pattern of behavior as to how this runs for me. 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.280 So firstly, it's like rage and I'm offended, right, I'm 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.960 obviously hurt, I'm wounded, And at first it's this I 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.440 am being unfairly targeted and something is being pointed out 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.400 about my appearance or it feels like it's tied inherently 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.280 to my identity because that's the other thing. Women's identity 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.000 and appearance is so inherently linked, so so many of 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.680 these feminized characteristics feel like an attack on your personhood, 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:34.280 your humanity. Right, there's this rage that something so personal 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.200 is being criticized. Then it turns for me to a 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.160 particular kind of hurt. And that hurt is when men 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.800 make comments about my body. They do so because they 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:45.560 feel entitled to do that, and they've never had my 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.520 lived experience. It hurts more from women, fair or not. 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.760 It hurts more for women for me personally, because I 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.200 know that they know what it feels like, Oh my gosh, right, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.320 and so it hurts more because you expect understanding, and 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.520 you know empathy is present, You know empathy is possible, 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.360 and so to have them use it and weaponize it 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:12.520 against you feel so deeply wounding. Then it turns to 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.040 pity for me because I realized that at some point 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.920 in their life they felt it was so shameful to 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.680 lean into these parts of themselves that they instead decided 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:28.640 to become and lean into masculine, patriarchal tactics and use 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.280 it against me. And I feel sorry for them that 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.680 that happened. It's like a full closure circle as well. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.400 I like that you kind of finish on pity, because, like, 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.280 what is more winning than pity? I think about that 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.720 all the time. I guess my problem, though, is when 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.559 pity doesn't lead to should I challenge this? 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.400 Yeah, that's a good point, I think. I think I 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.880 don't because I know that, especially like online, I'm like 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.319 the systems that have made you this run a lot 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:00.520 deeper than what I can handle on an Instagram comment, 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.120 of course, So I'm gonna be pulled in and I'm 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.040 just gonna feel worse, and people might look at that 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:11.480 and actually become even more angry. It's a hard It's 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:12.559 a hard job, isn't it. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.040 It's circumstantially it depends on what you think you can 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.680 do with that certain comment. And often the only reason 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.679 I'll comment back to someone on Instagram is if I 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.040 think that my comment can employ like a certain tone 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.040 and emotion that it's not necessarily to convince the person commenting, 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.280 but for other people watching to know and learn how 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.240 to articulate how to do that. Yeah, I only ever 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.120 do it as like, Okay, if I'm gonna call this 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:36.960 person in, I need to make sure it's in a 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.520 sense and in a way that I think others could 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.320 benefit from two, not just this person. 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.840 See, my approach is like just be so absolutely deliciously 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.120 kind to them that they then are like, oh wait, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.080 am I the asshole here? Yeah? And I'm like, actually, 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.440 this is going to make you really reflect back hopefully. Also, 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.120 you can't go anywhere else once. I honestly think that 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.280 like kindness or or even like complete knowledge or education, 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.439 it just corners someone and you're like you can't hurt 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.760 me anymore, Like there's there is nothing more that you 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.680 can do. I've exited this conversation. I've left my like 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.880 sparkly Faerydale, so I've left my knowledge and I'm not 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.520 gonna respond to this anymore. Yeah, And you're so right. 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.480 I feel like when you get comments from men, I'm like, 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.240 you're gonna hate me no matter what. And one of 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.520 my friends, Violet actually, who has a bit of like 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.199 an online presence, I was getting like all these mean comments. 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.599 Maybe like like midway through this year, had like a 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.360 random video go viral if you remember, it was like 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.800 maybe that trans like I'm looking for a man in finance, 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.160 And the video that I posted was like I'm just 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.720 looking for a man in therapy. He can be anyone, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:45.640 any size, any eyes. I just want him to be 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:46.200 self aware. 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:46.520 Yep. 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.680 And I did not think that that was a controversial 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:51.959 thing to be saying. Oh my god, did I get 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.120 ripped apart by all these men And they were like, well, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.840 your teeth are terrible, Well you're fat, well you're this 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.400 that like, you have all all these terrible qualities. And 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.199 then it was like these women being like, yeah, get it. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:09.160 And my friend Violet was like, they're gonna say that 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.040 to you no matter what you look like, no matter 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.280 who you are, because they have learned that to be 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.280 a woman that's an insult. They go done, like you're 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.400 already just the fact that being like anything you do 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.480 as an insult. Anything that you are, if there is 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.280 woman or female or girl before or she or her, 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:28.280 is offensive in their eyes. 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.319 But what's ironic is that so many men constantly talk 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.680 about the need for men's mental health to be prioritized 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.440 and acknowledged. And yes, your video is in the like 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.640 meme viral, right, But all you were asking for was 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.640 I want men to engage in mental health practices and 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:44.840 to have a level of self awareness and emotional intelligence, 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.160 which is quite a low bar and expectation. Right, it's 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:51.160 nothing for physical appearance. It's purely psychological and well being related. Yeah, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.880 and to have that turned on you is proving the 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:58.000 point one, but also establishing that men's standards for women 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.120 are nothing to do with our emotional health, way what 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:01.960 we can bring to the table in our personal lives 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.200 and all to do. And that's not to say all 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.400 men obviously, yeah, but it's to say that the response 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.280 was purely appearance based, proves how little therapy that those 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:11.760 people are. Yeah, exactly right. 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:13.559 That was one of the main comments with this guy 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.400 was like, well then why would I want you? And 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:17.960 I was like, you've literally just proved my point, Like 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.040 you just proved it, like in a second, that you 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.840 this is the person who needs this, like the fact 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.400 that it's not even a demand. It's like, I'm looking 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.800 for this. You don't have to be this. I'm looking 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:29.720 for this. This is a joke. This is like a 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.840 viral hook. And you were taking it so personally that 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.920 you've like insulted me. Anyhow, We've gotten completely off track. 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.520 The people that really interested me though in that comment 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.800 section was the women. Was the women who were like, God, 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.240 that's just like, why would you want such a feminine man? 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.520 Why would you want someone who like why would I 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.120 want a man in therapy? All these things? And that 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.400 kind of brings me to talking about the pick me girl, 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.120 because when you were explaining your kind of your cycle 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.360 of truth, when you get a hate comment from another woman, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.040 it ends in sympathy. And I honestly feel so much 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.400 sympathy towards pick me girls, and I want to see 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.560 if you feel the same way. What does that? What 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:11.200 does a pick me girl look like to you? Though? 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.800 A pick me girl sits alongside terms like cool girl 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.720 or not like other girls. There's a really fantastic additional 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.800 phrase that was coined by Australian journalist Amy Ramikis, which 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:27.040 is a crumb maiden. A crumb maiden being someone who 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.760 rises up within systems and uses that very system and 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.080 that power to oppress a group that they're part of. 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.240 Julie Bishop perfect, Sorry, just gonna ac hurt. People who 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:39.600 are in Australian won't know who that is. 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.560 Julie Bishop and Pauline Hanson. If you are, if you 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.440 are in Australia, if you're in Australia, have a Google. Yeah, 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:52.040 raisy hands. Yeah, the search goes up. But I think 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:53.959 that the way to think of a pick me girl, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.560 and when we say pick me, it's this woman who 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.080 wants to be chosen by men. So this is a 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:07.079 woman in our minds who engages and prioritizes male attention, 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:11.880 male interests, the male gaze in order to garner attention 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.040 and approval from men to the exclusion of women, so 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.920 to distance themselves from groups of girls, to not want 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.400 to be a girl's girl in quotations, and someone who 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.520 really pursues systems of patriarchy to find themselves more privileged 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.000 than other women within that system. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.360 And it's honestly, very very interesting because I think once 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:35.480 you start noticing it, you're like, oh, sometimes I do that, Yeah, sometimes, 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.280 And I can see myself having done that when I 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:38.080 was younger a lot. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.320 Well, I think that starting from a place of sympathy 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.720 towards this when you're a teenage girl, I've never met 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.800 someone who didn't engage in pickny girl behavior. Yeah, because 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.680 we've got to really step back from this and understand 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.720 that the idea of a pick me is that they 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.200 want to be chosen, they want to be loved, they 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.880 want to be seen to an extent right by men, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.880 and we exist in society that teaches women from a 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.120 very young age that the worst thing they could be 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.320 a single and child free. So in that context, of course, 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.440 young girls, especially in our early teen years and as 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.120 we become adults, really lean into I need to have 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.280 a boyfriend, I need to be desirable, to be seen, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:19.920 to be loved. Means in a patriarchal society for women 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.880 to be beautiful and enticing to men, And that takes 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.359 a lot of time to sort of dismantle, to decenter 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.600 that need, and it takes a lot of self awareness 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:31.000 and growth. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:33.720 You know what's really fascinating was I was talking to 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:35.720 one of my friends about this and she's recently come 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.800 out as lesbian, and I was bringing this up. I 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:40.440 was like, I'm gonna go talk to Hannah about pick 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.400 me girls, Like do you think that like this impacted 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.160 you despite you never really feeling like any kind of 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.040 sexual desire towards men. And she was like, yes, yeah, 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.120 one hundred percent. She was like, even as a teenager, 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.400 I did all these things because I wanted and she 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.680 had boyfriends and she wanted a boyfriend. She's like, I 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.560 had absolutely no sexual interest in them. But there was 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.840 a part of me, almost this like part of me 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.600 and my DNA, that realized that winning the favor and 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.680 the approval of men would benefit me, would be powerful 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:10.960 for me, would offer me like some form of protection, 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:13.920 you know, like if I was chosen, maybe I was 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.520 not going to be judged as much, maybe I would 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:21.280 be protected from scrutiny. So it's really fascinating to recognize 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:26.240 that it doesn't just come down to yeah, sex arousal 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:31.640 like romantic attachment. It is actually a level deeper than 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.840 that psychologically, and it has to do with power and 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.440 safety and security. And I never thought that I'd find 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.000 myself like sympathizing with like the pick me girls who 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.680 were like freaking fifty and sixty. But I'm like, you 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.520 were raised in an environment and in a society where 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.160 what was your other option? 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:52.960 And we still, you know, we us in a society 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.040 where I have friends who have chosen to be child free. 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.800 I have lots of single friends, but we are still 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.480 kind of charting the course for the first time, because 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:02.560 while women have been choosing to this for a long time, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:04.680 it's never been the majority. It's never been a third 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:05.280 it's never been. 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.720 A quarter, it's never been visible as well as visible, 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:09.359 so we don't know what it looks like to have 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.760 entire friendship circles and you know, context where women are 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:17.159 invited to really challenge those milestones, because women have been 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.720 taught that the most valuable parts of their lives, that 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.879 their milestones. 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.920 Are things where they give up agency and independence, marriage, children, 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.280 Like when you really think about that, the things we 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.120 are most celebrated and pedestaled for are the things where 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.560 we revoke our freedom. 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.679 And it's hard to not buy into that system because 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.280 and this isn't to say that if you want children 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.160 and if you want to be married that somehow you're 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.919 like anti feminist or whatever. It's a choice that, like 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.600 you know, you make. There are every single choice you make, 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.000 you give up something, yeap, not just to do with 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.240 what we're talking about, any choice for anything, like work. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:55.040 We're giving up time, we're giving up about you know, 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.679 that's labor, that's a lot of brain space. Like when 0:17:57.720 --> 0:17:59.400 we think about lots of things that we're doing, it's 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:00.760 always making choice like that. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.200 Buying anything, you're giving up the possibility of buying something 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:03.800 else with that money. 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:04.800 Like so it's not. 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:06.800 It doesn't come from a place of judgment. But I 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.600 do think that it's very interesting to see that a 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:11.159 lot of them are like, oh, maybe that's not what 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.840 I want. Maybe that's not what I want. And previously, 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.159 you know, my mother, my grandmother, my ancestors were not 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.480 given that choice. And the fact that so many people 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.560 are embracing that shows that maybe there is a deeper 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.000 desire to not have those things at times that previously 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.280 it would have been more normalized if we'd let that 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.719 desire be more present earlier. Yes, and the people who 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.520 didn't desire it, that would have been fine as well, 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.320 Like everyone would have just been able to do with 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.119 them and the fuck they wanted whatever that choice was. 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.080 And I think that's like a really important place that 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.639 we're getting to. We're going to take a short break, 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.520 but when we return, we're to discuss how to unlearn 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.000 some of our own internalized misogyny, deal with misogyny in 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.360 the workplace, how to assert ourselves, how to be confident, 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.800 be outspoken, be loud, ask for what you want, all 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:07.600 of that and more after this short break. All right, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:09.800 so we're back with Hannah, and I have another question 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.240 for you. Of course, because this is an interview. That's 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.720 how that works. Now that I'm gonna sit here. Yeah, 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.480 so I'm just going to monologue speaking of mylogues, when 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.320 how internal monologue is really saying, Okay, there are certain 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.440 things I need to do to be accepted in this environment, 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:28.800 to be picked. You know, I do want love and 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.080 I want to get married. Is that going to cost 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.760 me giving up certain things? Should I just not be myself? 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.320 How do we counter wrap that narrative that is very 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.800