Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in
Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here
Speaker 1: back for another episode, as we, of course break down
Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties on today's episode for our
Speaker 1: twelve days of guests, I want to talk about something
Speaker 1: that I have really wanted to speak to since the
Speaker 1: day I started this podcast. I remember this very topic
Speaker 1: being on my first ever list of topics that I
Speaker 1: wanted to cover, and it's still been on that list
Speaker 1: since twenty twenty one, but I knew I needed to
Speaker 1: find the right guests to talk about it. Today, we're
Speaker 1: finally getting to it. We're going to be tackling a
Speaker 1: topic that runs very deep, which is sexism or misogyny
Speaker 1: in our twenties, in our workplaces, in our friendships, in dating,
Speaker 1: but also our own internalized misogyny and how to deal
Speaker 1: with that. What are some of the psychological consequences of
Speaker 1: experiencing misogyny during this decade? How do you put your
Speaker 1: foot down? How do you stand up for yourself when
Speaker 1: you don't feel like you have power? What does it
Speaker 1: mean when other women tear each other down. Why do
Speaker 1: we criticize each other. There's so many behaviors and beliefs
Speaker 1: and systems attached to this, but at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, it is quite a psychological experience. It's rooted
Speaker 1: in social structures and messaging that has been ingrained in
Speaker 1: us since a young age. And I'm really excited to
Speaker 1: explore the psychology behind these patterns and this experience, and
Speaker 1: also to welcome on our amazing expert guest, a friend
Speaker 1: of the show, Hannah ferguson Friend of the Show. I
Speaker 1: love that, Dah.
Speaker 2: I am a friend of the show genuinely.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Before this we were just having like a massive,
Speaker 1: massive chat. Then we be like, wait, we actually have
Speaker 1: a job to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's crazy because we're in the depths right
Speaker 2: now of each other's personal lives. Let's snap back into
Speaker 2: reality and get into the questions.
Speaker 1: I love that energy, though, I know, I know this
Speaker 1: is like true female bonding. Like we're talking about misogyny
Speaker 1: and there's like none of it here, so it's not
Speaker 1: present in the room with us right now, no, I know. Also,
Speaker 1: it's so nice to have an Australian guest on. But
Speaker 1: I'm so privileged to be here, thank you, and we're
Speaker 1: the same room for once. I know, I think this
Speaker 1: never happens with the guests like you, very very rarely
Speaker 1: can you tell the listeners a little bit about who
Speaker 1: you are, what you do, if it's like a complete
Speaker 1: wrap sheet, and how you got here.
Speaker 2: So I am the founder and CEO of Cheek Media Co.
Speaker 2: Which is mainly a sort of news commentary platform for
Speaker 2: left wing opinions through Instagram so at cheekmedia dot Co.
Speaker 2: I'm also the co host of news and pop culture
Speaker 2: podcast Big Small Talk. And I'm the best selling author
Speaker 2: of bite Back and my new book Taboo has just
Speaker 2: come out as well, and that's really about sex, dating
Speaker 2: relationships and like what it means to be a woman
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: And bite Back for those of you who have not
Speaker 1: read that book, incredible. My mum read that book. Oh
Speaker 1: that's really nice. I thought it for her and she
Speaker 1: was like, this is incredible.
Speaker 2: Ah, I love that.
Speaker 1: And bite Back it's a book about feminism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a book about like feminism, media and politics
Speaker 2: and how we change the systems.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is literally the perfect segue into what we're
Speaker 1: talking about today, which is misogyny and of course you
Speaker 1: talk about this a lot, both on cheek but also
Speaker 1: on a podcast.
Speaker 2: In your books.
Speaker 1: I want to really begin by focusing on misogyny from
Speaker 1: women to women, yep, because I think that's like the
Speaker 1: most complex issue that I wrap my head around. Is like,
Speaker 1: you kind of expect misogyny from men at times, but
Speaker 1: never from someone perhaps of your same gender, who understands
Speaker 1: your experience. How do you think it kind of looks different?
Speaker 1: What do we like typically expect misogyny to look like
Speaker 1: versus what are the ways that we actually encounter it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like for people, And I think it's really
Speaker 2: important to make the note at the start that misogyny
Speaker 2: is the hatred of women, of femininity, of these sort
Speaker 2: of traits that we consider and associate with women and girls.
Speaker 2: And I think that needs to be really contrast against sexism,
Speaker 2: which is just a singular act. So misogyny is this
Speaker 2: deep rooted hatred, right, and when it's experienced to all ourselves,
Speaker 2: when it's experienced towards other women, as women and girls,
Speaker 2: it's called internalized misogyny because we are internalizing a system
Speaker 2: of patriarchy that has conditioned us to see women and
Speaker 2: girls as less than less than men, and it's anyone
Speaker 2: who really it's it's the gender spectrum, it's people who
Speaker 2: are not men, and how we are treated as less
Speaker 2: than as inequal to men, and then how we apply
Speaker 2: that kind of thinking that has been conditioned into us
Speaker 2: since birth towards ourselves and other women and girls. So
Speaker 2: it could be, and there's there's so many examples of this,
Speaker 2: but I would say, like the beauty industry and body
Speaker 2: image standards, the way we feel about ourselves and treat
Speaker 2: ourselves about our bodies, that's an active internalized misogyny. The
Speaker 2: way that we judge other women. And I'm not saying
Speaker 2: just general judgment. Of course, we're going to have natural
Speaker 2: judgment and criticism for others, but internalized misogyny is really
Speaker 2: focusing on feminized parts of ourselves and qualities, traits, behaviors
Speaker 2: that patriarch key shames and oppresses, those things in other
Speaker 2: women that we critique. So maybe the way someone wears
Speaker 2: their hair, the way someone does their makeup, their body,
Speaker 2: their opinion on feminism, the way that we treat other
Speaker 2: women in those senses is internalized misogyny coming out.
Speaker 1: And I really like how you pointed out that it's
Speaker 1: almost a hatred of things that are typically female.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's not like, oh, I hate their body the
Speaker 1: way that oh, you know, I'm judging their body the
Speaker 1: way that you can judge anyone's body. It's I'm judging
Speaker 1: their body because they are a woman, or because of
Speaker 1: something about them that seems feminine or seems maybe sexual.
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, it's a double standard. That's
Speaker 1: the word that always is like is it the heart
Speaker 1: of any conversation around this. There is one world for
Speaker 1: women and girls, people who identify as women, and then
Speaker 1: there is this other world for people who aren't women,
Speaker 1: who are men.
Speaker 2: The standard is raised, there's a different set of criteria.
Speaker 2: There's things that you notice every single day and apply
Speaker 2: criticism to that you would never focus on for men.
Speaker 1: And it feels so weird when that's coming from another woman. Yes,
Speaker 1: Like it's so strange when you're like, wait, I thought
Speaker 1: we were meant to be like buddies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god. And it's you can you can
Speaker 2: feel it in your bones when I'm talking about it.
Speaker 2: You know, when you go to a you know, a
Speaker 2: lunch with your family and your grandma points out that
Speaker 2: you've put on weight, or that you're eating too much,
Speaker 2: or that your skirt or your hair or something ripped jeans.
Speaker 2: Like there's so many examples of like different qualities, traits,
Speaker 2: behaviors again that are like you would never see that
Speaker 2: happen to your your brother, your cousin who's male. Like
Speaker 2: you can see and feel the difference in the moment
Speaker 2: about the standard women are held to.
Speaker 1: Have you ever had any experiences of this? Like have
Speaker 1: you ever like it's a rhetorical question the run sheet, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Like what was your reaction though, you know, being torn
Speaker 1: down by another woman? And obviously you have like an
Speaker 1: online presence, right, it happens all the time. Yeah, was
Speaker 1: it pity? Anger, or like sadness? What's the main emotional
Speaker 1: action for you?
Speaker 2: I feel like there's obviously like a spectrum and like
Speaker 2: a pattern of behavior as to how this runs for me.
Speaker 2: So firstly, it's like rage and I'm offended, right, I'm
Speaker 2: obviously hurt, I'm wounded, And at first it's this I
Speaker 2: am being unfairly targeted and something is being pointed out
Speaker 2: about my appearance or it feels like it's tied inherently
Speaker 2: to my identity because that's the other thing. Women's identity
Speaker 2: and appearance is so inherently linked, so so many of
Speaker 2: these feminized characteristics feel like an attack on your personhood,
Speaker 2: your humanity. Right, there's this rage that something so personal
Speaker 2: is being criticized. Then it turns for me to a
Speaker 2: particular kind of hurt. And that hurt is when men
Speaker 2: make comments about my body. They do so because they
Speaker 2: feel entitled to do that, and they've never had my
Speaker 2: lived experience. It hurts more from women, fair or not.
Speaker 2: It hurts more for women for me personally, because I
Speaker 2: know that they know what it feels like, Oh my gosh, right,
Speaker 2: and so it hurts more because you expect understanding, and
Speaker 2: you know empathy is present, You know empathy is possible,
Speaker 2: and so to have them use it and weaponize it
Speaker 2: against you feel so deeply wounding. Then it turns to
Speaker 2: pity for me because I realized that at some point
Speaker 2: in their life they felt it was so shameful to
Speaker 2: lean into these parts of themselves that they instead decided
Speaker 2: to become and lean into masculine, patriarchal tactics and use
Speaker 2: it against me. And I feel sorry for them that
Speaker 2: that happened. It's like a full closure circle as well.
Speaker 2: I like that you kind of finish on pity, because, like,
Speaker 2: what is more winning than pity? I think about that
Speaker 2: all the time. I guess my problem, though, is when
Speaker 2: pity doesn't lead to should I challenge this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, I think. I think I
Speaker 1: don't because I know that, especially like online, I'm like
Speaker 1: the systems that have made you this run a lot
Speaker 1: deeper than what I can handle on an Instagram comment,
Speaker 1: of course, So I'm gonna be pulled in and I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna feel worse, and people might look at that
Speaker 1: and actually become even more angry. It's a hard It's
Speaker 1: a hard job, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's circumstantially it depends on what you think you can
Speaker 2: do with that certain comment. And often the only reason
Speaker 2: I'll comment back to someone on Instagram is if I
Speaker 2: think that my comment can employ like a certain tone
Speaker 2: and emotion that it's not necessarily to convince the person commenting,
Speaker 2: but for other people watching to know and learn how
Speaker 2: to articulate how to do that. Yeah, I only ever
Speaker 2: do it as like, Okay, if I'm gonna call this
Speaker 2: person in, I need to make sure it's in a
Speaker 2: sense and in a way that I think others could
Speaker 2: benefit from two, not just this person.
Speaker 1: See, my approach is like just be so absolutely deliciously
Speaker 1: kind to them that they then are like, oh wait,
Speaker 1: am I the asshole here? Yeah? And I'm like, actually,
Speaker 1: this is going to make you really reflect back hopefully. Also,
Speaker 1: you can't go anywhere else once. I honestly think that
Speaker 1: like kindness or or even like complete knowledge or education,
Speaker 1: it just corners someone and you're like you can't hurt
Speaker 1: me anymore, Like there's there is nothing more that you
Speaker 1: can do. I've exited this conversation. I've left my like
Speaker 1: sparkly Faerydale, so I've left my knowledge and I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna respond to this anymore. Yeah, And you're so right.
Speaker 1: I feel like when you get comments from men, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you're gonna hate me no matter what. And one of
Speaker 1: my friends, Violet actually, who has a bit of like
Speaker 1: an online presence, I was getting like all these mean comments.
Speaker 1: Maybe like like midway through this year, had like a
Speaker 1: random video go viral if you remember, it was like
Speaker 1: maybe that trans like I'm looking for a man in finance,
Speaker 1: And the video that I posted was like I'm just
Speaker 1: looking for a man in therapy. He can be anyone,
Speaker 1: any size, any eyes. I just want him to be
Speaker 1: self aware.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: And I did not think that that was a controversial
Speaker 1: thing to be saying. Oh my god, did I get
Speaker 1: ripped apart by all these men And they were like, well,
Speaker 1: your teeth are terrible, Well you're fat, well you're this
Speaker 1: that like, you have all all these terrible qualities. And
Speaker 1: then it was like these women being like, yeah, get it.
Speaker 1: And my friend Violet was like, they're gonna say that
Speaker 1: to you no matter what you look like, no matter
Speaker 1: who you are, because they have learned that to be
Speaker 1: a woman that's an insult. They go done, like you're
Speaker 1: already just the fact that being like anything you do
Speaker 1: as an insult. Anything that you are, if there is
Speaker 1: woman or female or girl before or she or her,
Speaker 1: is offensive in their eyes.
Speaker 2: But what's ironic is that so many men constantly talk
Speaker 2: about the need for men's mental health to be prioritized
Speaker 2: and acknowledged. And yes, your video is in the like
Speaker 2: meme viral, right, But all you were asking for was
Speaker 2: I want men to engage in mental health practices and
Speaker 2: to have a level of self awareness and emotional intelligence,
Speaker 2: which is quite a low bar and expectation. Right, it's
Speaker 2: nothing for physical appearance. It's purely psychological and well being related. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and to have that turned on you is proving the
Speaker 2: point one, but also establishing that men's standards for women
Speaker 2: are nothing to do with our emotional health, way what
Speaker 2: we can bring to the table in our personal lives
Speaker 2: and all to do. And that's not to say all
Speaker 2: men obviously, yeah, but it's to say that the response
Speaker 2: was purely appearance based, proves how little therapy that those
Speaker 2: people are. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1: That was one of the main comments with this guy
Speaker 1: was like, well then why would I want you? And
Speaker 1: I was like, you've literally just proved my point, Like
Speaker 1: you just proved it, like in a second, that you
Speaker 1: this is the person who needs this, like the fact
Speaker 1: that it's not even a demand. It's like, I'm looking
Speaker 1: for this. You don't have to be this. I'm looking
Speaker 1: for this. This is a joke. This is like a
Speaker 1: viral hook. And you were taking it so personally that
Speaker 1: you've like insulted me. Anyhow, We've gotten completely off track.
Speaker 1: The people that really interested me though in that comment
Speaker 1: section was the women. Was the women who were like, God,
Speaker 1: that's just like, why would you want such a feminine man?
Speaker 1: Why would you want someone who like why would I
Speaker 1: want a man in therapy? All these things? And that
Speaker 1: kind of brings me to talking about the pick me girl,
Speaker 1: because when you were explaining your kind of your cycle
Speaker 1: of truth, when you get a hate comment from another woman,
Speaker 1: it ends in sympathy. And I honestly feel so much
Speaker 1: sympathy towards pick me girls, and I want to see
Speaker 1: if you feel the same way. What does that? What
Speaker 1: does a pick me girl look like to you? Though?
Speaker 2: A pick me girl sits alongside terms like cool girl
Speaker 2: or not like other girls. There's a really fantastic additional
Speaker 2: phrase that was coined by Australian journalist Amy Ramikis, which
Speaker 2: is a crumb maiden. A crumb maiden being someone who
Speaker 2: rises up within systems and uses that very system and
Speaker 2: that power to oppress a group that they're part of.
Speaker 1: Julie Bishop perfect, Sorry, just gonna ac hurt. People who
Speaker 1: are in Australian won't know who that is.
Speaker 2: Julie Bishop and Pauline Hanson. If you are, if you
Speaker 2: are in Australia, if you're in Australia, have a Google. Yeah,
Speaker 2: raisy hands. Yeah, the search goes up. But I think
Speaker 2: that the way to think of a pick me girl,
Speaker 2: and when we say pick me, it's this woman who
Speaker 2: wants to be chosen by men. So this is a
Speaker 2: woman in our minds who engages and prioritizes male attention,
Speaker 2: male interests, the male gaze in order to garner attention
Speaker 2: and approval from men to the exclusion of women, so
Speaker 2: to distance themselves from groups of girls, to not want
Speaker 2: to be a girl's girl in quotations, and someone who
Speaker 2: really pursues systems of patriarchy to find themselves more privileged
Speaker 2: than other women within that system.
Speaker 1: And it's honestly, very very interesting because I think once
Speaker 1: you start noticing it, you're like, oh, sometimes I do that, Yeah, sometimes,
Speaker 1: And I can see myself having done that when I
Speaker 1: was younger a lot.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that starting from a place of sympathy
Speaker 2: towards this when you're a teenage girl, I've never met
Speaker 2: someone who didn't engage in pickny girl behavior. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: we've got to really step back from this and understand
Speaker 2: that the idea of a pick me is that they
Speaker 2: want to be chosen, they want to be loved, they
Speaker 2: want to be seen to an extent right by men,
Speaker 2: and we exist in society that teaches women from a
Speaker 2: very young age that the worst thing they could be
Speaker 2: a single and child free. So in that context, of course,
Speaker 2: young girls, especially in our early teen years and as
Speaker 2: we become adults, really lean into I need to have
Speaker 2: a boyfriend, I need to be desirable, to be seen,
Speaker 2: to be loved. Means in a patriarchal society for women
Speaker 2: to be beautiful and enticing to men, And that takes
Speaker 2: a lot of time to sort of dismantle, to decenter
Speaker 2: that need, and it takes a lot of self awareness
Speaker 2: and growth.
Speaker 1: You know what's really fascinating was I was talking to
Speaker 1: one of my friends about this and she's recently come
Speaker 1: out as lesbian, and I was bringing this up. I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm gonna go talk to Hannah about pick
Speaker 1: me girls, Like do you think that like this impacted
Speaker 1: you despite you never really feeling like any kind of
Speaker 1: sexual desire towards men. And she was like, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. She was like, even as a teenager,
Speaker 1: I did all these things because I wanted and she
Speaker 1: had boyfriends and she wanted a boyfriend. She's like, I
Speaker 1: had absolutely no sexual interest in them. But there was
Speaker 1: a part of me, almost this like part of me
Speaker 1: and my DNA, that realized that winning the favor and
Speaker 1: the approval of men would benefit me, would be powerful
Speaker 1: for me, would offer me like some form of protection,
Speaker 1: you know, like if I was chosen, maybe I was
Speaker 1: not going to be judged as much, maybe I would
Speaker 1: be protected from scrutiny. So it's really fascinating to recognize
Speaker 1: that it doesn't just come down to yeah, sex arousal
Speaker 1: like romantic attachment. It is actually a level deeper than
Speaker 1: that psychologically, and it has to do with power and
Speaker 1: safety and security. And I never thought that I'd find
Speaker 1: myself like sympathizing with like the pick me girls who
Speaker 1: were like freaking fifty and sixty. But I'm like, you
Speaker 1: were raised in an environment and in a society where
Speaker 1: what was your other option?
Speaker 2: And we still, you know, we us in a society
Speaker 2: where I have friends who have chosen to be child free.
Speaker 2: I have lots of single friends, but we are still
Speaker 2: kind of charting the course for the first time, because
Speaker 2: while women have been choosing to this for a long time,
Speaker 2: it's never been the majority. It's never been a third
Speaker 2: it's never been.
Speaker 3: A quarter, it's never been visible as well as visible,
Speaker 3: so we don't know what it looks like to have
Speaker 3: entire friendship circles and you know, context where women are
Speaker 3: invited to really challenge those milestones, because women have been
Speaker 3: taught that the most valuable parts of their lives, that
Speaker 3: their milestones.
Speaker 2: Are things where they give up agency and independence, marriage, children,
Speaker 2: Like when you really think about that, the things we
Speaker 2: are most celebrated and pedestaled for are the things where
Speaker 2: we revoke our freedom.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to not buy into that system because
Speaker 1: and this isn't to say that if you want children
Speaker 1: and if you want to be married that somehow you're
Speaker 1: like anti feminist or whatever. It's a choice that, like
Speaker 1: you know, you make. There are every single choice you make,
Speaker 1: you give up something, yeap, not just to do with
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, any choice for anything, like work.
Speaker 2: We're giving up time, we're giving up about you know,
Speaker 2: that's labor, that's a lot of brain space. Like when
Speaker 2: we think about lots of things that we're doing, it's
Speaker 2: always making choice like that.
Speaker 1: Buying anything, you're giving up the possibility of buying something
Speaker 1: else with that money.
Speaker 2: Like so it's not.
Speaker 1: It doesn't come from a place of judgment. But I
Speaker 1: do think that it's very interesting to see that a
Speaker 1: lot of them are like, oh, maybe that's not what
Speaker 1: I want. Maybe that's not what I want. And previously,
Speaker 1: you know, my mother, my grandmother, my ancestors were not
Speaker 1: given that choice. And the fact that so many people
Speaker 1: are embracing that shows that maybe there is a deeper
Speaker 1: desire to not have those things at times that previously
Speaker 1: it would have been more normalized if we'd let that
Speaker 1: desire be more present earlier. Yes, and the people who
Speaker 1: didn't desire it, that would have been fine as well,
Speaker 1: Like everyone would have just been able to do with
Speaker 1: them and the fuck they wanted whatever that choice was.
Speaker 1: And I think that's like a really important place that
Speaker 1: we're getting to. We're going to take a short break,
Speaker 1: but when we return, we're to discuss how to unlearn
Speaker 1: some of our own internalized misogyny, deal with misogyny in
Speaker 1: the workplace, how to assert ourselves, how to be confident,
Speaker 1: be outspoken, be loud, ask for what you want, all
Speaker 1: of that and more after this short break. All right,
Speaker 1: so we're back with Hannah, and I have another question
Speaker 1: for you. Of course, because this is an interview. That's
Speaker 1: how that works. Now that I'm gonna sit here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm just going to monologue speaking of mylogues, when
Speaker 1: how internal monologue is really saying, Okay, there are certain
Speaker 1: things I need to do to be accepted in this environment,
Speaker 1: to be picked. You know, I do want love and
Speaker 1: I want to get married. Is that going to cost
Speaker 1: me giving up certain things? Should I just not be myself?
Speaker 1: How do we counter wrap that narrative that is very
Speaker 1: much I think maybe like rooted in our own internalized misogyny,
Speaker 1: the narrative that you have to be different or you
Speaker 1: have to suppress the parts of you that are you know, female,
Speaker 1: that are individual, in order to fit into like society's box.
Speaker 2: I had this quote a few months ago in an
Speaker 2: interview on the Imperfect podcast We Love Them, We Love Them,
Speaker 2: and the quote was one of the celebrities interviewed said
Speaker 2: the more me I am, the better it goes. And
Speaker 2: I think about that a lot in the context of
Speaker 2: the way I choose relationships and which work opportunities to pursue,
Speaker 2: because I don't want to say to anyone, stop repressing everything,
Speaker 2: stop compromising. But like the nature of relationships is that
Speaker 2: we're going to have conflict, We're going to have compromise,
Speaker 2: We're going to have boundaries, We're going to have needs
Speaker 2: and wants. When we're talking about our own internal monologue
Speaker 2: of like being the cool girl or you know, suppressing
Speaker 2: our femininity or performing in a certain way, we can
Speaker 2: understand that beauty standards under patriarchy and the male gays
Speaker 2: have a very specific idea of what is hot. But
Speaker 2: the person you actually want to be with and the
Speaker 2: person that is best for you if you choose so
Speaker 2: choose also seek longterm relationships, partnered, monogamous, whatever that may be,
Speaker 2: is the person that sees you as you want to
Speaker 2: be and allow yourself to be seen. Because I think
Speaker 2: that part of my issue, especially in my own personal
Speaker 2: life of dating, was so for so long I was
Speaker 2: so worried, especially running a feminist media company Congo Walmart,
Speaker 2: was that every time I told a man, they'd be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I find your success hot, but not your personality and
Speaker 2: your values. Like I was so worried about the sort
Speaker 2: of are they truly here for the right reasons and
Speaker 2: actually align with me? And they don't have to align
Speaker 2: with everything I think that's not what we're aiming for either.
Speaker 2: What we're aiming for is to be so comfortable with
Speaker 2: ourselves and what we want and who we're looking for
Speaker 2: in our lives that we go and actually allow ourselves
Speaker 2: to seek out that person by being honest with ourselves
Speaker 2: about what it will take for us to be seen
Speaker 2: and loved in the way that we want. I know
Speaker 2: that I engage in a lot of bad relationships because
Speaker 2: I performed what I thought I was supposed to do
Speaker 2: and it never made me feel good, and.
Speaker 1: Also just out of a need for validation at times
Speaker 1: as well. Absolutely, we can have like all the knowledge
Speaker 1: about misogyny, some all these things, how we're going to
Speaker 1: treat it, how they've been conditioned to behave, and then
Speaker 1: still you find yourself being like, but I really really
Speaker 1: want this validation.
Speaker 2: Of course, and things like dating apps give us so
Speaker 2: much instant gratification right over these things that we then
Speaker 2: feel this need to like fake appear like, we need
Speaker 2: to fake our personalities, fake our prompts, fit in the
Speaker 2: mainstream all of these things, right, But ultimately that is
Speaker 2: just serving a narrative that is not going to fulfill you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's really.
Speaker 2: Hard to come to terms with that, because what I
Speaker 2: always say too is healthy relationships are harder. I have
Speaker 2: found traditionally that when I have dated men and like
Speaker 2: kind of performed what it means to be like a
Speaker 2: heterosexual woman in twenty twenty four, I've often found it
Speaker 2: easy because if they treat me poorly, like ghosting behaviors
Speaker 2: or like poor conflict management, I'm like, you're the problem,
Speaker 2: You're emotionally unintelligent. When I've been in feminist relationships that
Speaker 2: really allowed me to be seen and heard, it turned
Speaker 2: back on me my own behaviors and issues when I
Speaker 2: was met with an emotional equal who challenge me in
Speaker 2: the way I challenge them. So it's actually quite hard
Speaker 2: to recognize when you're not having like the big sparks
Speaker 2: and the chemical reactions and you're actually in a feminist
Speaker 2: relationship where you're not playing into that internalized misogyny. Now
Speaker 2: you're presented with like, oh my god, there's so much
Speaker 2: I haven't discovered about myself while I've been kind of
Speaker 2: suppressing and toning down and listening to that internal monologue.
Speaker 1: And what do they say, what's the happiest group of
Speaker 1: people on the planet? Single women and women's single women
Speaker 1: in the fifties.
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: And it's the women who have been like I've been there,
Speaker 1: done that, got the T shirt. Yep, I sought the validation.
Speaker 1: I had these relationships that you know, weren't feminist, and
Speaker 1: I'm opting out. Yeah, I'm opting out, Like I just
Speaker 1: I'm at the stage where I don't need that anymore.
Speaker 2: It's like there will be Goldberg quote like I don't
Speaker 2: want someone in my house, like.
Speaker 1: I don't in my house like kind of it's so
Speaker 1: clean normally. Yeah, it's just you, and I feel like
Speaker 1: it's this whole thing where it's like, Okay, well I
Speaker 1: had kids and I got married, so he did what
Speaker 1: you expect me to. But now you're like not paying
Speaker 1: attention to me because I've aged out of the male gaze.
Speaker 1: So I can just chill, yeap, I can just chill
Speaker 1: and I can just like eat whatever the fuck I want,
Speaker 1: and I can look however I want, and I can
Speaker 1: wear whatever colors and clothes. I don't have to be
Speaker 1: attractive anymore, and I don't need to find a husband,
Speaker 1: and I don't need to be a mother. But you're
Speaker 1: still a mother.
Speaker 2: But is it then like, and this is really the question.
Speaker 2: Is it when the women who have found themselves in
Speaker 2: these predicaments, who have sought out relationships, long term monogamous
Speaker 2: heterosexual relationships, got married, had the kids started to age
Speaker 2: out of that male gaze, and then discovered like it
Speaker 2: didn't matter no matter what effort they put in, it
Speaker 2: didn't matter anymore. That then become that internalized misogyny megaphone.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, do you think so like the women
Speaker 1: who are.
Speaker 2: Like holding on gripping the remains of that feeling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so, Yeah, And honestly got again the sympathy.
Speaker 1: That's what I mean.
Speaker 2: It must be awful, it.
Speaker 1: Must be so so hard, and especially if you are
Speaker 1: still in the environments I'm thinking about where I grew up,
Speaker 1: And I grew up in like Queensland in Australia, which
Speaker 1: is like Florida, right, the Florida of Australia.
Speaker 2: I spent sixteiars in Queensland too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you grew up in like the fucking Alabama
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 2: Orange, Yeah, Orange. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We're not going to get into it.
Speaker 2: No, but we both have these experiences, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I see people from there here and I'm
Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, I can just see that
Speaker 1: you're angry, and you're angry because you don't know who
Speaker 1: you are, and you're angry because you've been buying into
Speaker 1: this system. But you don't realize that's why you're angry,
Speaker 1: Like you don't realize that like all of these feelings
Speaker 1: and this like hatred that you are projecting towards primarily
Speaker 1: younger women. And I see this with a lot of
Speaker 1: older women in my like where I grew up. All
Speaker 1: this anger that you're like projecting towards younger women's actually
Speaker 1: not like you're not angry at them, Like you're angry
Speaker 1: that you didn't get that. Yeah, and you were like
Speaker 1: play by the rules because I had to. I had
Speaker 1: to do all these things that i'd actually, you know,
Speaker 1: innately like my deep inner like self concept did not
Speaker 1: want me to do these things because it wasn't free
Speaker 1: and it wasn't liberating. But I did them anyways, So
Speaker 1: now you should have to. And that's where I think
Speaker 1: it comes from.
Speaker 2: It is kind of this. We see this with the
Speaker 2: feminist waves too. We see this regression almost where older
Speaker 2: women of previous waves resent the choices we now have.
Speaker 2: And yes, and It's interesting because all I hope for
Speaker 2: myself is that when I become an older woman, that
Speaker 2: I champion the next generation of women. Yeah, and the
Speaker 2: changes they want to make, because they might be different
Speaker 2: fights to mine, but they are reflective of the new
Speaker 2: frontier of what they're seeking next. And it must be
Speaker 2: hard to be left out of that. If you have
Speaker 2: two choices though, you can lie down and complain or
Speaker 2: you can get up and join them.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know who I think is so great at that. Like,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna give a shout out to my grandma,
Speaker 1: who's like, oh my god, the truest feminists that ever
Speaker 1: fucking lived. Like, she is just so open and curious.
Speaker 1: And she you know, she said this to me the
Speaker 1: other day. She's American and she had to vote in
Speaker 1: the recent election, and she said, whenever I vote, like,
Speaker 1: I choose to vote for the for the person in
Speaker 1: who I imagine is doing it the hardest. And I think,
Speaker 1: what how would they vote? And I vote that way?
Speaker 1: This is exactly right. Use your vote for someone less
Speaker 1: privileged than yourself. Yeah, And she brings out to like
Speaker 1: her feminist principles as well. She's like, I don't understand it.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're doing, but like cool down
Speaker 1: for that, don't care. Her big thing is like cosmetic surgery.
Speaker 2: That's my big thing too.
Speaker 1: Actually yeah, and she's and that's like her big thing.
Speaker 1: Where it's like it is the ultimate frontier of like
Speaker 1: I think in my mind, like it's the ultimate frontier
Speaker 1: of internalized misogyny versus like freedom of women to do
Speaker 1: what they want. But then like, are the insecurity is
Speaker 1: only coming from it's a whole.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that that's what the pick me conversation
Speaker 2: is about too, because are we just being sort of
Speaker 2: playing into the problem by criticizing other women. But then
Speaker 2: it comes back to this idea of what choice feminism is,
Speaker 2: which is the idea which I disagree with, that anything
Speaker 2: that a woman does is inherently feminist because a woman
Speaker 2: made that decision. But it's about individualism, it's about individualism
Speaker 2: versus collective action. Then too, and when we are playing
Speaker 2: into a system that hates us, we are still feeding,
Speaker 2: monetizing and continuing a vicious cycle. And cosmetic procedures is
Speaker 2: another way pick me girls play into the male gaze.
Speaker 2: And it's not everyone that gets botox or has cosmetic
Speaker 2: privigues as a pick me. God, That's not what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: but we do need to assess at a higher level
Speaker 2: and step back from our immediate want to remove an
Speaker 2: insecurity and think who am I doing this for?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's act like the exact best
Speaker 1: way to think about it is all right, this is
Speaker 1: still your choice and it will always be your choice,
Speaker 1: but part of the choice is like a thought process
Speaker 1: behind it. With any choice, again, it's fact like the
Speaker 1: thing we were talking about with like marriage or choosing
Speaker 1: to be child free, any choice, like you give up something,
Speaker 1: and interrogating the reason that you choose to do something
Speaker 1: I think is important and I know that like previously
Speaker 1: it was like makeup, I think we've all gotten to
Speaker 1: the point where like no, no makeup is self expression
Speaker 1: as well as like a asking in insecurity. And I wonder,
Speaker 1: like where that discussion is gonna go with cosmetic surgery,
Speaker 1: because I honestly don't have an opinion on it. I'm
Speaker 1: completely stuck on the fence with it.
Speaker 2: I am anti cosmetic surgery, but I love having conversations
Speaker 2: about this because I'm so willing to change your mind
Speaker 2: on this, and I think we should all be like
Speaker 2: that with a range of topics. But one of the
Speaker 2: conversations I had with the follower of mine when I
Speaker 2: was posting about this recently was she said, you actually
Speaker 2: haven't aged yet, and so it's very easy from you
Speaker 2: from a twenty six year old's body to say I'm
Speaker 2: against engaging in and feeding into the anti aging industry,
Speaker 2: the beauty industry, when actually you have the privilege of
Speaker 2: youth still and you don't know how you'll feel about
Speaker 2: your body and what that means to see it change
Speaker 2: down the line. I thought that was a fantastic criticism
Speaker 2: that really made me think about my argument.
Speaker 1: Wow, I've never thought of that. I kind of got chills.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was amazing. I don't think I've changed my position. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I really thought about it, and it's I'm never applying
Speaker 2: a judgment to an individual for making the choice. I
Speaker 2: want us as individuals to come together and critique the
Speaker 2: system that has made us feel we need to do this.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I actually saw I had
Speaker 1: a similar conversation with someone offline and she was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: but don't you understand like being hot makes you powerful?
Speaker 1: So and it's true, it's like it is very very true.
Speaker 1: So maybe it's like you accept, you embrace the evil
Speaker 1: for the good. I did. I on the fence about it.
Speaker 1: Didn't agree, now that agreed nor disagreed. Thought it was
Speaker 1: an interesting point. She was like, Okay, if I want
Speaker 1: to be someone who breaks the glass ceiling, and that's
Speaker 1: the first step, right, we just want to break the ceiling,
Speaker 1: get the hole open so all the other birdies can
Speaker 1: fly out. That was not a metaphor the women just
Speaker 1: you know, it was a metaphor for an a trim
Speaker 1: like that Bertie is that's so funny anyhow, And she
Speaker 1: was like, okay, so if I want to be someone
Speaker 1: who can like walk in a room and like you know,
Speaker 1: change policy or change change like institutions, or convince people
Speaker 1: to donate more to a charity or this or that,
Speaker 1: or support the arts, like if I'm hot, I can
Speaker 1: do that better. And so is that like I've decided
Speaker 1: to play into the game for the greater good. And
Speaker 1: she made this like very interesting argument for it.
Speaker 2: I think it's a compelling argument, but I think it's
Speaker 2: immediately tarnished in a way by saying that is a
Speaker 2: woman locking the door behind her because there are other
Speaker 2: women who do not have the same privilege or baseline.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we know.
Speaker 2: That pretty beautiful beauty exists on a spectrum. And as
Speaker 2: much as I want, we want to say everyone's beautiful,
Speaker 2: we know that it's still hierarchical and that Western beauty
Speaker 2: standards mean that it's like thin white women that benefit, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so I would always say, like, of course, do
Speaker 2: what you want to do. I do want people to
Speaker 2: lean in if they want to wear a certain thing
Speaker 2: and fashion and make up our art forms. The woman
Speaker 2: talking about being hot and pretty privilege, Yes, that's an
Speaker 2: argument that I think is really interesting to explore. But
Speaker 2: are you just again locking that door and pulling up
Speaker 2: the ladder from behind you for other women who cannot
Speaker 2: reach that same height.
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring that back to her. Maybe she's
Speaker 1: listening to this episode. I want to see what she says,
Speaker 1: all right. I want to finish up by just talking
Speaker 1: about something that I get asked about a lot from listeners.
Speaker 1: Is a lot of my female listeners will be like,
Speaker 1: I've just sided a new job, got my first big
Speaker 1: girl job. I'm in the corporate environment, I'm in finance,
Speaker 1: I'm in whatever. How do I asert myself in this
Speaker 1: male dominated space, Like, how do I say I just
Speaker 1: love to be here without feeling like I'm going to
Speaker 1: be thinking about someone that messaged me recently? And I'm paraphrasing,
Speaker 1: but she was basically like, how do I do this?
Speaker 1: How do I stand out? How do I be myself
Speaker 1: without feeling like I'm going to be punished for that.
Speaker 2: I think that there's a few elements here. First is communication,
Speaker 2: and I would say keeping records of things. That sounds
Speaker 2: a bit suspicious in all these things, but I think
Speaker 2: that in corporate workplaces, I actually used to work for
Speaker 2: a union and be like in sort of employment law
Speaker 2: and defending people, so like a lot of my role
Speaker 2: was protection self protection for people. What I mean by
Speaker 2: this is when you want to prove what you're doing
Speaker 2: at work and assert your worth and the role you're
Speaker 2: playing here in this ecosystem, keep records of achievements, keep
Speaker 2: records of well done projects and tasks, keep records of
Speaker 2: great emails, keep records of problems you find in the workplace.
Speaker 2: If you've asserted a policy problem, if you've asserted lacking organizations,
Speaker 2: if you've asserted concerns about a particular employee, like are
Speaker 2: you someone who's harassing you or something? Keep a written
Speaker 2: record of what's going on is one thing. Two is
Speaker 2: make sure you're getting paid what you're worth. There is
Speaker 2: nothing like organizing like pay reviews six monthly, talking about metrics,
Speaker 2: where your hierarchy work, what your dreams and visions are,
Speaker 2: what your plan is, what you actually are interested in,
Speaker 2: pursuing your passions in the workplace, and where you want
Speaker 2: to go. I think a lot of this before we
Speaker 2: get to the stage of like how do I assert
Speaker 2: myself at work? Is getting really comfortable knowing what you're after.
Speaker 2: Because when you know what you're seeking, and you have goals,
Speaker 2: and you have a plan and an outline, and you
Speaker 2: know what you're good at and you believe in that,
Speaker 2: that means that when you are in the workplace, you
Speaker 2: feel a lot more comfortable having tough conversations, whether it
Speaker 2: be with other employees in conflict, whether it be with management,
Speaker 2: in seeking reviews, performance updates, going further in the workplace.
Speaker 2: But I think that this can be difficult because we
Speaker 2: know there's a lot of tox workplaces around. But knowing
Speaker 2: your rights at work, knowing what you can and can't do,
Speaker 2: and knowing which boundaries you want to push, which boundaries
Speaker 2: you want to respect, and what you want to make change.
Speaker 2: Doing is incredibly important because I'm not going to say
Speaker 2: to you like get in there and go and start
Speaker 2: a fight, or you know, like get in the morning
Speaker 2: tea and no.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I think that we need to understand which rules are
Speaker 2: worth breaking and why. And I think we need to
Speaker 2: understand what we want from work because I think it's
Speaker 2: also about putting in place boundaries like I don't go
Speaker 2: home after six pm because I don't want to start
Speaker 2: setting the boundary that I will do anything to stay back,
Speaker 2: and I work much harder than others. There's this fine
Speaker 2: balance between kind of emerging out of a girl Boss era.
Speaker 2: So we don't want people killing themselves at work for
Speaker 2: crumbs and being walked on. I want people to assert
Speaker 2: their worth in the workplace by getting things done well,
Speaker 2: asking the right questions, asking and expecting better for themselves,
Speaker 2: working hard but working smart too.
Speaker 1: Well way that I do this and I like what
Speaker 1: you said about you know, we're exiting the boss era.
Speaker 1: We are moving on from that. We're all about respecting
Speaker 1: our self worth as people who aren't just machines. But
Speaker 1: in any interaction anything where I have to as sert
Speaker 1: a boundary, I just imagine the person that I admire
Speaker 1: most doing that for me. So I think, like I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think about, like who I would choose for
Speaker 1: this example, for like a workplace example, had a really
Speaker 1: amazing boss manager when I was a management consultant. Her
Speaker 1: name was Heidi and she's just a legend. And sometimes
Speaker 1: when I'd have to like assert myself and be like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm going home because it's my grandma's birthday or I'm
Speaker 1: going home because of X y Z, I would just
Speaker 1: imagine that she was there instead being like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: by the way, Jemy needs to leave. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: would just like picture that like she was right there
Speaker 1: with me, or I would picture that I was her,
Speaker 1: and what would she say in that circumstance, what would
Speaker 1: she do? How would she act? I use this in
Speaker 1: every situation.
Speaker 2: It reminds me of like my approach to dating last
Speaker 2: year was be the person you want to date.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 2: Applying it to this is like be the person you'd
Speaker 2: want to employ. Yeah, So it doesn't mean working a
Speaker 2: fourteen hour day. You wouldn't want that of your employee,
Speaker 2: because we don't expect that of our employees, right. We
Speaker 2: would want someone who turns up to work on time
Speaker 2: or lets us know why, communicates clearly, communicates kindly, has
Speaker 2: you know, brings their personality to work, is respectful and
Speaker 2: has great conversations and does high quality work and challenges themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the other thing is like work does
Speaker 1: feel like a huge part of your personality, but it's
Speaker 1: not your entire identity. No, And you actually can't be
Speaker 1: someone who is a good employee who's going to get
Speaker 1: ahead if you give everything to your workplace and leave
Speaker 1: nothing for yourself. So I love that.
Speaker 2: As a self employed people too, I'm like, I need
Speaker 2: to take my own advice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it doesn't apply to us stuff I've got dah.
Speaker 2: But that's the other thing I would say. And it's
Speaker 2: to do with all of this. So often our views
Speaker 2: are more progressive and what would be what would you
Speaker 2: say to your friend? But not what are you not
Speaker 2: applying to yourself in these circumstances? Something to really reflect
Speaker 2: on too.
Speaker 1: I do this to my sister all the time, Like
Speaker 1: my sister's a professional athlete, and I'm always like, no,
Speaker 1: like stand off for yourself, like, don't let them boss
Speaker 1: you around demand more money. And then in my situations,
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I don't think I've ever been out
Speaker 1: on the podcast before, but it is how it is.
Speaker 1: All right, we're going to wrap up. But I asked
Speaker 1: this final question of everyone, and I just love to
Speaker 1: hear what they have to say. What is one piece
Speaker 1: of advice you would have for people in their twenties.
Speaker 1: Doesn't have to be about what we talked about today.
Speaker 2: This is a bit random. I've actually never given this advice,
Speaker 2: like in a formal way on podcasts. Is usually reserved
Speaker 2: for my closest friends. And it might sound a bit
Speaker 2: strange because there's so much more inspirational, pinteresty sort of
Speaker 2: stuff that I could go for here. But in your relationships,
Speaker 2: your close relationships, whether it be romantic friendship, whenever someone's
Speaker 2: going through a hard conflict at work, whatever with their
Speaker 2: romantic partner, I always say, what is your threshold at
Speaker 2: the basement, And like, what I mean is how low
Speaker 2: are you willing to go? Because what I've found over
Speaker 2: the last few years in dating and in friendships and
Speaker 2: things is when I get upset in a relationship I'm struggling.
Speaker 2: Often you're being depleted one percent at a time, so
Speaker 2: I think like, oh, you know, they did this last
Speaker 2: week and they did this this week. But neither of
Speaker 2: those things feel like an adequate amount to cause a
Speaker 2: problem over or start a conflict. And what ends up
Speaker 2: happening often is you end up twenty five percent depleted
Speaker 2: and not knowing how you got there, how You're like
Speaker 2: all of these one percent items, these tiny little things
Speaker 2: have built up, and it feels ridiculous to bring them up,
Speaker 2: but I'm not happy. And the advice I would give
Speaker 2: is to find really clearly where your bottom line is
Speaker 2: in your relationships, because for a lot of people it's
Speaker 2: like cheating or like a friend like fundamentally betraying you
Speaker 2: in some very significant way. And I think we need
Speaker 2: to improve our boundaries and understanding of ourselves and what
Speaker 2: we expect from our relationships. So instead of waiting to
Speaker 2: find the basement, I would say to people, know where
Speaker 2: your basement is, because it allows you a sense of
Speaker 2: self respect and understanding, and it helps you raise conflict
Speaker 2: and concerns earlier.
Speaker 1: That's fabulous advice and no one's given it before. Oh thanks,
Speaker 1: it's a really really good one know where your basement is,
Speaker 1: how low you go limbo a limbo job.
Speaker 2: I think it's because often we just find ourselves like
Speaker 2: I can't believe I got here because it's been seven
Speaker 2: minor or medium things. Yeah, and it's it's gone past
Speaker 2: the basement and you don't know how you got there.
Speaker 2: And I never want people to feel like that.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure people listening to this you're probably thinking
Speaker 1: of your own example right now, Like in your brain,
Speaker 1: you're thinking about a friendship or a relationship, or a
Speaker 1: work instance or a nahbor whatever that you have not
Speaker 1: done this for and now you can do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the show,
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I'm going to link every single
Speaker 1: place that you can find her in the show description,
Speaker 1: including her amazing podcast Big Small Talk and Big Talk.
Speaker 2: And soon to be another one another one you could
Speaker 2: probably guess what it's called.
Speaker 1: Yeah, leave your suggestions in the comments. And also I
Speaker 1: would really really tell you if you liked this conversation
Speaker 1: to follow cheek Media because it's incredible where I get
Speaker 1: so much little tidbits of information from. As always, if
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you give us
Speaker 1: a five star review. Follow along, leave a comment, leave
Speaker 1: some kind words. Follow us on Instagram at that Psychology
Speaker 1: Podcast if you want to see what new episodes we
Speaker 1: have coming out, if you want to leave a comment
Speaker 1: or leave a suggestion, or have a discussion about what
Speaker 1: we talked about in this episode. If you agree, if
Speaker 1: you disagree, we still love to hear from you regardless,
Speaker 1: and until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle
Speaker 1: with yourself as we enter the holiday's season, and we
Speaker 1: will talk very very soon.