1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: back for another episode, as we, of course break down 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties on today's episode for our 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: twelve days of guests, I want to talk about something 7 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: that I have really wanted to speak to since the 8 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: day I started this podcast. I remember this very topic 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: being on my first ever list of topics that I 10 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: wanted to cover, and it's still been on that list 11 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: since twenty twenty one, but I knew I needed to 12 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: find the right guests to talk about it. Today, we're 13 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: finally getting to it. We're going to be tackling a 14 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: topic that runs very deep, which is sexism or misogyny 15 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: in our twenties, in our workplaces, in our friendships, in dating, 16 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: but also our own internalized misogyny and how to deal 17 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: with that. What are some of the psychological consequences of 18 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: experiencing misogyny during this decade? How do you put your 19 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: foot down? How do you stand up for yourself when 20 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: you don't feel like you have power? What does it 21 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: mean when other women tear each other down. Why do 22 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: we criticize each other. There's so many behaviors and beliefs 23 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: and systems attached to this, but at the end of 24 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: the day, it is quite a psychological experience. It's rooted 25 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: in social structures and messaging that has been ingrained in 26 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: us since a young age. And I'm really excited to 27 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: explore the psychology behind these patterns and this experience, and 28 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: also to welcome on our amazing expert guest, a friend 29 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: of the show, Hannah ferguson Friend of the Show. I 30 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: love that, Dah. 31 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 2: I am a friend of the show genuinely. 32 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Before this we were just having like a massive, 33 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: massive chat. Then we be like, wait, we actually have 34 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: a job to do. 35 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's crazy because we're in the depths right 36 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 2: now of each other's personal lives. Let's snap back into 37 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: reality and get into the questions. 38 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: I love that energy, though, I know, I know this 39 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: is like true female bonding. Like we're talking about misogyny 40 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: and there's like none of it here, so it's not 41 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: present in the room with us right now, no, I know. Also, 42 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: it's so nice to have an Australian guest on. But 43 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm so privileged to be here, thank you, and we're 44 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: the same room for once. I know, I think this 45 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: never happens with the guests like you, very very rarely 46 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: can you tell the listeners a little bit about who 47 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: you are, what you do, if it's like a complete 48 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: wrap sheet, and how you got here. 49 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: So I am the founder and CEO of Cheek Media Co. 50 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: Which is mainly a sort of news commentary platform for 51 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: left wing opinions through Instagram so at cheekmedia dot Co. 52 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: I'm also the co host of news and pop culture 53 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: podcast Big Small Talk. And I'm the best selling author 54 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 2: of bite Back and my new book Taboo has just 55 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: come out as well, and that's really about sex, dating 56 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 2: relationships and like what it means to be a woman 57 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four. 58 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: And bite Back for those of you who have not 59 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: read that book, incredible. My mum read that book. Oh 60 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: that's really nice. I thought it for her and she 61 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: was like, this is incredible. 62 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: Ah, I love that. 63 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: And bite Back it's a book about feminism. 64 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a book about like feminism, media and politics 65 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: and how we change the systems. 66 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is literally the perfect segue into what we're 67 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: talking about today, which is misogyny and of course you 68 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: talk about this a lot, both on cheek but also 69 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: on a podcast. 70 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: In your books. 71 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: I want to really begin by focusing on misogyny from 72 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: women to women, yep, because I think that's like the 73 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: most complex issue that I wrap my head around. Is like, 74 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: you kind of expect misogyny from men at times, but 75 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: never from someone perhaps of your same gender, who understands 76 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: your experience. How do you think it kind of looks different? 77 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: What do we like typically expect misogyny to look like 78 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: versus what are the ways that we actually encounter it? 79 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like for people, And I think it's really 80 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: important to make the note at the start that misogyny 81 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: is the hatred of women, of femininity, of these sort 82 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: of traits that we consider and associate with women and girls. 83 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: And I think that needs to be really contrast against sexism, 84 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: which is just a singular act. So misogyny is this 85 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: deep rooted hatred, right, and when it's experienced to all ourselves, 86 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: when it's experienced towards other women, as women and girls, 87 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: it's called internalized misogyny because we are internalizing a system 88 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: of patriarchy that has conditioned us to see women and 89 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: girls as less than less than men, and it's anyone 90 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: who really it's it's the gender spectrum, it's people who 91 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: are not men, and how we are treated as less 92 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: than as inequal to men, and then how we apply 93 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: that kind of thinking that has been conditioned into us 94 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: since birth towards ourselves and other women and girls. So 95 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: it could be, and there's there's so many examples of this, 96 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: but I would say, like the beauty industry and body 97 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 2: image standards, the way we feel about ourselves and treat 98 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: ourselves about our bodies, that's an active internalized misogyny. The 99 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: way that we judge other women. And I'm not saying 100 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: just general judgment. Of course, we're going to have natural 101 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: judgment and criticism for others, but internalized misogyny is really 102 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 2: focusing on feminized parts of ourselves and qualities, traits, behaviors 103 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: that patriarch key shames and oppresses, those things in other 104 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 2: women that we critique. So maybe the way someone wears 105 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: their hair, the way someone does their makeup, their body, 106 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: their opinion on feminism, the way that we treat other 107 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: women in those senses is internalized misogyny coming out. 108 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: And I really like how you pointed out that it's 109 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: almost a hatred of things that are typically female. 110 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 111 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: So it's not like, oh, I hate their body the 112 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: way that oh, you know, I'm judging their body the 113 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,119 Speaker 1: way that you can judge anyone's body. It's I'm judging 114 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: their body because they are a woman, or because of 115 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: something about them that seems feminine or seems maybe sexual. 116 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, it's a double standard. That's 117 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: the word that always is like is it the heart 118 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: of any conversation around this. There is one world for 119 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: women and girls, people who identify as women, and then 120 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: there is this other world for people who aren't women, 121 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: who are men. 122 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: The standard is raised, there's a different set of criteria. 123 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: There's things that you notice every single day and apply 124 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: criticism to that you would never focus on for men. 125 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: And it feels so weird when that's coming from another woman. Yes, 126 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: Like it's so strange when you're like, wait, I thought 127 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: we were meant to be like buddies. 128 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god. And it's you can you can 129 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 2: feel it in your bones when I'm talking about it. 130 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: You know, when you go to a you know, a 131 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: lunch with your family and your grandma points out that 132 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: you've put on weight, or that you're eating too much, 133 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: or that your skirt or your hair or something ripped jeans. 134 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: Like there's so many examples of like different qualities, traits, 135 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: behaviors again that are like you would never see that 136 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: happen to your your brother, your cousin who's male. Like 137 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: you can see and feel the difference in the moment 138 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: about the standard women are held to. 139 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: Have you ever had any experiences of this? Like have 140 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: you ever like it's a rhetorical question the run sheet, Yeah, yeah, 141 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: Like what was your reaction though, you know, being torn 142 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: down by another woman? And obviously you have like an 143 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: online presence, right, it happens all the time. Yeah, was 144 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 1: it pity? Anger, or like sadness? What's the main emotional 145 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: action for you? 146 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 2: I feel like there's obviously like a spectrum and like 147 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: a pattern of behavior as to how this runs for me. 148 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 2: So firstly, it's like rage and I'm offended, right, I'm 149 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: obviously hurt, I'm wounded, And at first it's this I 150 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: am being unfairly targeted and something is being pointed out 151 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 2: about my appearance or it feels like it's tied inherently 152 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: to my identity because that's the other thing. Women's identity 153 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: and appearance is so inherently linked, so so many of 154 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 2: these feminized characteristics feel like an attack on your personhood, 155 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: your humanity. Right, there's this rage that something so personal 156 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: is being criticized. Then it turns for me to a 157 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: particular kind of hurt. And that hurt is when men 158 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: make comments about my body. They do so because they 159 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: feel entitled to do that, and they've never had my 160 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: lived experience. It hurts more from women, fair or not. 161 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: It hurts more for women for me personally, because I 162 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: know that they know what it feels like, Oh my gosh, right, 163 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: and so it hurts more because you expect understanding, and 164 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: you know empathy is present, You know empathy is possible, 165 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: and so to have them use it and weaponize it 166 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: against you feel so deeply wounding. Then it turns to 167 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: pity for me because I realized that at some point 168 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: in their life they felt it was so shameful to 169 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: lean into these parts of themselves that they instead decided 170 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: to become and lean into masculine, patriarchal tactics and use 171 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: it against me. And I feel sorry for them that 172 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: that happened. It's like a full closure circle as well. 173 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: I like that you kind of finish on pity, because, like, 174 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: what is more winning than pity? I think about that 175 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: all the time. I guess my problem, though, is when 176 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: pity doesn't lead to should I challenge this? 177 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, I think. I think I 178 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: don't because I know that, especially like online, I'm like 179 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: the systems that have made you this run a lot 180 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: deeper than what I can handle on an Instagram comment, 181 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: of course, So I'm gonna be pulled in and I'm 182 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: just gonna feel worse, and people might look at that 183 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: and actually become even more angry. It's a hard It's 184 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: a hard job, isn't it. 185 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: It's circumstantially it depends on what you think you can 186 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: do with that certain comment. And often the only reason 187 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 2: I'll comment back to someone on Instagram is if I 188 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: think that my comment can employ like a certain tone 189 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: and emotion that it's not necessarily to convince the person commenting, 190 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: but for other people watching to know and learn how 191 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: to articulate how to do that. Yeah, I only ever 192 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: do it as like, Okay, if I'm gonna call this 193 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: person in, I need to make sure it's in a 194 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: sense and in a way that I think others could 195 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: benefit from two, not just this person. 196 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: See, my approach is like just be so absolutely deliciously 197 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: kind to them that they then are like, oh wait, 198 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: am I the asshole here? Yeah? And I'm like, actually, 199 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: this is going to make you really reflect back hopefully. Also, 200 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: you can't go anywhere else once. I honestly think that 201 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: like kindness or or even like complete knowledge or education, 202 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: it just corners someone and you're like you can't hurt 203 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: me anymore, Like there's there is nothing more that you 204 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: can do. I've exited this conversation. I've left my like 205 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: sparkly Faerydale, so I've left my knowledge and I'm not 206 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: gonna respond to this anymore. Yeah, And you're so right. 207 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: I feel like when you get comments from men, I'm like, 208 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: you're gonna hate me no matter what. And one of 209 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: my friends, Violet actually, who has a bit of like 210 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 1: an online presence, I was getting like all these mean comments. 211 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,599 Speaker 1: Maybe like like midway through this year, had like a 212 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: random video go viral if you remember, it was like 213 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: maybe that trans like I'm looking for a man in finance, 214 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: And the video that I posted was like I'm just 215 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: looking for a man in therapy. He can be anyone, 216 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: any size, any eyes. I just want him to be 217 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: self aware. 218 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: Yep. 219 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: And I did not think that that was a controversial 220 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: thing to be saying. Oh my god, did I get 221 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: ripped apart by all these men And they were like, well, 222 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: your teeth are terrible, Well you're fat, well you're this 223 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: that like, you have all all these terrible qualities. And 224 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: then it was like these women being like, yeah, get it. 225 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: And my friend Violet was like, they're gonna say that 226 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: to you no matter what you look like, no matter 227 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: who you are, because they have learned that to be 228 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: a woman that's an insult. They go done, like you're 229 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: already just the fact that being like anything you do 230 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: as an insult. Anything that you are, if there is 231 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: woman or female or girl before or she or her, 232 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: is offensive in their eyes. 233 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 2: But what's ironic is that so many men constantly talk 234 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 2: about the need for men's mental health to be prioritized 235 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 2: and acknowledged. And yes, your video is in the like 236 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: meme viral, right, But all you were asking for was 237 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: I want men to engage in mental health practices and 238 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: to have a level of self awareness and emotional intelligence, 239 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: which is quite a low bar and expectation. Right, it's 240 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: nothing for physical appearance. It's purely psychological and well being related. Yeah, 241 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: and to have that turned on you is proving the 242 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: point one, but also establishing that men's standards for women 243 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: are nothing to do with our emotional health, way what 244 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: we can bring to the table in our personal lives 245 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: and all to do. And that's not to say all 246 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: men obviously, yeah, but it's to say that the response 247 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: was purely appearance based, proves how little therapy that those 248 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: people are. Yeah, exactly right. 249 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: That was one of the main comments with this guy 250 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: was like, well then why would I want you? And 251 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: I was like, you've literally just proved my point, Like 252 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: you just proved it, like in a second, that you 253 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: this is the person who needs this, like the fact 254 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: that it's not even a demand. It's like, I'm looking 255 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: for this. You don't have to be this. I'm looking 256 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: for this. This is a joke. This is like a 257 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: viral hook. And you were taking it so personally that 258 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: you've like insulted me. Anyhow, We've gotten completely off track. 259 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: The people that really interested me though in that comment 260 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: section was the women. Was the women who were like, God, 261 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: that's just like, why would you want such a feminine man? 262 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: Why would you want someone who like why would I 263 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: want a man in therapy? All these things? And that 264 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: kind of brings me to talking about the pick me girl, 265 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: because when you were explaining your kind of your cycle 266 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: of truth, when you get a hate comment from another woman, 267 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: it ends in sympathy. And I honestly feel so much 268 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: sympathy towards pick me girls, and I want to see 269 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: if you feel the same way. What does that? What 270 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: does a pick me girl look like to you? Though? 271 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: A pick me girl sits alongside terms like cool girl 272 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: or not like other girls. There's a really fantastic additional 273 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: phrase that was coined by Australian journalist Amy Ramikis, which 274 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: is a crumb maiden. A crumb maiden being someone who 275 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: rises up within systems and uses that very system and 276 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: that power to oppress a group that they're part of. 277 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: Julie Bishop perfect, Sorry, just gonna ac hurt. People who 278 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: are in Australian won't know who that is. 279 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 2: Julie Bishop and Pauline Hanson. If you are, if you 280 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: are in Australia, if you're in Australia, have a Google. Yeah, 281 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: raisy hands. Yeah, the search goes up. But I think 282 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 2: that the way to think of a pick me girl, 283 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: and when we say pick me, it's this woman who 284 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 2: wants to be chosen by men. So this is a 285 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 2: woman in our minds who engages and prioritizes male attention, 286 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: male interests, the male gaze in order to garner attention 287 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: and approval from men to the exclusion of women, so 288 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: to distance themselves from groups of girls, to not want 289 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: to be a girl's girl in quotations, and someone who 290 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: really pursues systems of patriarchy to find themselves more privileged 291 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: than other women within that system. 292 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: And it's honestly, very very interesting because I think once 293 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: you start noticing it, you're like, oh, sometimes I do that, Yeah, sometimes, 294 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: And I can see myself having done that when I 295 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: was younger a lot. 296 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: Well, I think that starting from a place of sympathy 297 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: towards this when you're a teenage girl, I've never met 298 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: someone who didn't engage in pickny girl behavior. Yeah, because 299 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 2: we've got to really step back from this and understand 300 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: that the idea of a pick me is that they 301 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: want to be chosen, they want to be loved, they 302 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: want to be seen to an extent right by men, 303 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: and we exist in society that teaches women from a 304 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: very young age that the worst thing they could be 305 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: a single and child free. So in that context, of course, 306 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: young girls, especially in our early teen years and as 307 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: we become adults, really lean into I need to have 308 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: a boyfriend, I need to be desirable, to be seen, 309 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: to be loved. Means in a patriarchal society for women 310 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: to be beautiful and enticing to men, And that takes 311 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,359 Speaker 2: a lot of time to sort of dismantle, to decenter 312 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: that need, and it takes a lot of self awareness 313 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: and growth. 314 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: You know what's really fascinating was I was talking to 315 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: one of my friends about this and she's recently come 316 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: out as lesbian, and I was bringing this up. I 317 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: was like, I'm gonna go talk to Hannah about pick 318 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: me girls, Like do you think that like this impacted 319 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: you despite you never really feeling like any kind of 320 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: sexual desire towards men. And she was like, yes, yeah, 321 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: one hundred percent. She was like, even as a teenager, 322 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: I did all these things because I wanted and she 323 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: had boyfriends and she wanted a boyfriend. She's like, I 324 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: had absolutely no sexual interest in them. But there was 325 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: a part of me, almost this like part of me 326 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: and my DNA, that realized that winning the favor and 327 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: the approval of men would benefit me, would be powerful 328 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: for me, would offer me like some form of protection, 329 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, like if I was chosen, maybe I was 330 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: not going to be judged as much, maybe I would 331 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: be protected from scrutiny. So it's really fascinating to recognize 332 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: that it doesn't just come down to yeah, sex arousal 333 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: like romantic attachment. It is actually a level deeper than 334 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: that psychologically, and it has to do with power and 335 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: safety and security. And I never thought that I'd find 336 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: myself like sympathizing with like the pick me girls who 337 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: were like freaking fifty and sixty. But I'm like, you 338 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: were raised in an environment and in a society where 339 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: what was your other option? 340 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: And we still, you know, we us in a society 341 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: where I have friends who have chosen to be child free. 342 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: I have lots of single friends, but we are still 343 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: kind of charting the course for the first time, because 344 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: while women have been choosing to this for a long time, 345 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: it's never been the majority. It's never been a third 346 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: it's never been. 347 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 3: A quarter, it's never been visible as well as visible, 348 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 3: so we don't know what it looks like to have 349 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 3: entire friendship circles and you know, context where women are 350 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 3: invited to really challenge those milestones, because women have been 351 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: taught that the most valuable parts of their lives, that 352 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 3: their milestones. 353 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: Are things where they give up agency and independence, marriage, children, 354 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: Like when you really think about that, the things we 355 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 2: are most celebrated and pedestaled for are the things where 356 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: we revoke our freedom. 357 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: And it's hard to not buy into that system because 358 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: and this isn't to say that if you want children 359 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: and if you want to be married that somehow you're 360 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: like anti feminist or whatever. It's a choice that, like 361 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, you make. There are every single choice you make, 362 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: you give up something, yeap, not just to do with 363 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: what we're talking about, any choice for anything, like work. 364 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: We're giving up time, we're giving up about you know, 365 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 2: that's labor, that's a lot of brain space. Like when 366 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: we think about lots of things that we're doing, it's 367 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: always making choice like that. 368 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: Buying anything, you're giving up the possibility of buying something 369 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: else with that money. 370 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: Like so it's not. 371 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't come from a place of judgment. But I 372 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: do think that it's very interesting to see that a 373 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: lot of them are like, oh, maybe that's not what 374 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: I want. Maybe that's not what I want. And previously, 375 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: you know, my mother, my grandmother, my ancestors were not 376 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: given that choice. And the fact that so many people 377 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: are embracing that shows that maybe there is a deeper 378 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: desire to not have those things at times that previously 379 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: it would have been more normalized if we'd let that 380 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: desire be more present earlier. Yes, and the people who 381 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: didn't desire it, that would have been fine as well, 382 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: Like everyone would have just been able to do with 383 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: them and the fuck they wanted whatever that choice was. 384 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's like a really important place that 385 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: we're getting to. We're going to take a short break, 386 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: but when we return, we're to discuss how to unlearn 387 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: some of our own internalized misogyny, deal with misogyny in 388 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: the workplace, how to assert ourselves, how to be confident, 389 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: be outspoken, be loud, ask for what you want, all 390 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: of that and more after this short break. All right, 391 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: so we're back with Hannah, and I have another question 392 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: for you. Of course, because this is an interview. That's 393 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: how that works. Now that I'm gonna sit here. Yeah, 394 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: so I'm just going to monologue speaking of mylogues, when 395 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: how internal monologue is really saying, Okay, there are certain 396 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: things I need to do to be accepted in this environment, 397 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: to be picked. You know, I do want love and 398 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: I want to get married. Is that going to cost 399 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: me giving up certain things? Should I just not be myself? 400 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: How do we counter wrap that narrative that is very 401 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: much I think maybe like rooted in our own internalized misogyny, 402 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: the narrative that you have to be different or you 403 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: have to suppress the parts of you that are you know, female, 404 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: that are individual, in order to fit into like society's box. 405 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 2: I had this quote a few months ago in an 406 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: interview on the Imperfect podcast We Love Them, We Love Them, 407 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: and the quote was one of the celebrities interviewed said 408 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: the more me I am, the better it goes. And 409 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: I think about that a lot in the context of 410 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: the way I choose relationships and which work opportunities to pursue, 411 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 2: because I don't want to say to anyone, stop repressing everything, 412 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: stop compromising. But like the nature of relationships is that 413 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: we're going to have conflict, We're going to have compromise, 414 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: We're going to have boundaries, We're going to have needs 415 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: and wants. When we're talking about our own internal monologue 416 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: of like being the cool girl or you know, suppressing 417 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 2: our femininity or performing in a certain way, we can 418 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 2: understand that beauty standards under patriarchy and the male gays 419 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: have a very specific idea of what is hot. But 420 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: the person you actually want to be with and the 421 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 2: person that is best for you if you choose so 422 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: choose also seek longterm relationships, partnered, monogamous, whatever that may be, 423 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: is the person that sees you as you want to 424 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: be and allow yourself to be seen. Because I think 425 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: that part of my issue, especially in my own personal 426 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: life of dating, was so for so long I was 427 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 2: so worried, especially running a feminist media company Congo Walmart, 428 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: was that every time I told a man, they'd be like, oh, 429 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 2: I find your success hot, but not your personality and 430 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: your values. Like I was so worried about the sort 431 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: of are they truly here for the right reasons and 432 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: actually align with me? And they don't have to align 433 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 2: with everything I think that's not what we're aiming for either. 434 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 2: What we're aiming for is to be so comfortable with 435 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: ourselves and what we want and who we're looking for 436 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: in our lives that we go and actually allow ourselves 437 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 2: to seek out that person by being honest with ourselves 438 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: about what it will take for us to be seen 439 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 2: and loved in the way that we want. I know 440 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 2: that I engage in a lot of bad relationships because 441 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 2: I performed what I thought I was supposed to do 442 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: and it never made me feel good, and. 443 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: Also just out of a need for validation at times 444 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: as well. Absolutely, we can have like all the knowledge 445 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: about misogyny, some all these things, how we're going to 446 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: treat it, how they've been conditioned to behave, and then 447 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: still you find yourself being like, but I really really 448 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: want this validation. 449 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 2: Of course, and things like dating apps give us so 450 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: much instant gratification right over these things that we then 451 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: feel this need to like fake appear like, we need 452 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: to fake our personalities, fake our prompts, fit in the 453 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: mainstream all of these things, right, But ultimately that is 454 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: just serving a narrative that is not going to fulfill you. 455 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's really. 456 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: Hard to come to terms with that, because what I 457 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: always say too is healthy relationships are harder. I have 458 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: found traditionally that when I have dated men and like 459 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: kind of performed what it means to be like a 460 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: heterosexual woman in twenty twenty four, I've often found it 461 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: easy because if they treat me poorly, like ghosting behaviors 462 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: or like poor conflict management, I'm like, you're the problem, 463 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 2: You're emotionally unintelligent. When I've been in feminist relationships that 464 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 2: really allowed me to be seen and heard, it turned 465 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: back on me my own behaviors and issues when I 466 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: was met with an emotional equal who challenge me in 467 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: the way I challenge them. So it's actually quite hard 468 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: to recognize when you're not having like the big sparks 469 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 2: and the chemical reactions and you're actually in a feminist 470 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: relationship where you're not playing into that internalized misogyny. Now 471 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: you're presented with like, oh my god, there's so much 472 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: I haven't discovered about myself while I've been kind of 473 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: suppressing and toning down and listening to that internal monologue. 474 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: And what do they say, what's the happiest group of 475 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: people on the planet? Single women and women's single women 476 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: in the fifties. 477 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. 478 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: And it's the women who have been like I've been there, 479 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: done that, got the T shirt. Yep, I sought the validation. 480 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: I had these relationships that you know, weren't feminist, and 481 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm opting out. Yeah, I'm opting out, Like I just 482 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: I'm at the stage where I don't need that anymore. 483 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 2: It's like there will be Goldberg quote like I don't 484 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: want someone in my house, like. 485 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: I don't in my house like kind of it's so 486 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: clean normally. Yeah, it's just you, and I feel like 487 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: it's this whole thing where it's like, Okay, well I 488 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: had kids and I got married, so he did what 489 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: you expect me to. But now you're like not paying 490 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: attention to me because I've aged out of the male gaze. 491 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: So I can just chill, yeap, I can just chill 492 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: and I can just like eat whatever the fuck I want, 493 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: and I can look however I want, and I can 494 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: wear whatever colors and clothes. I don't have to be 495 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: attractive anymore, and I don't need to find a husband, 496 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: and I don't need to be a mother. But you're 497 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: still a mother. 498 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 2: But is it then like, and this is really the question. 499 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 2: Is it when the women who have found themselves in 500 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 2: these predicaments, who have sought out relationships, long term monogamous 501 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: heterosexual relationships, got married, had the kids started to age 502 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: out of that male gaze, and then discovered like it 503 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: didn't matter no matter what effort they put in, it 504 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: didn't matter anymore. That then become that internalized misogyny megaphone. 505 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god, do you think so like the women 506 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: who are. 507 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 2: Like holding on gripping the remains of that feeling. 508 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so, Yeah, And honestly got again the sympathy. 509 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: That's what I mean. 510 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: It must be awful, it. 511 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: Must be so so hard, and especially if you are 512 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: still in the environments I'm thinking about where I grew up, 513 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: And I grew up in like Queensland in Australia, which 514 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: is like Florida, right, the Florida of Australia. 515 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 2: I spent sixteiars in Queensland too. 516 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you grew up in like the fucking Alabama 517 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: I did. 518 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: Orange, Yeah, Orange. Yeah. 519 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: We're not going to get into it. 520 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: No, but we both have these experiences, yes, yeah. 521 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: And sometimes I see people from there here and I'm 522 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, I can just see that 523 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: you're angry, and you're angry because you don't know who 524 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: you are, and you're angry because you've been buying into 525 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: this system. But you don't realize that's why you're angry, 526 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: Like you don't realize that like all of these feelings 527 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: and this like hatred that you are projecting towards primarily 528 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: younger women. And I see this with a lot of 529 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: older women in my like where I grew up. All 530 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: this anger that you're like projecting towards younger women's actually 531 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: not like you're not angry at them, Like you're angry 532 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: that you didn't get that. Yeah, and you were like 533 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: play by the rules because I had to. I had 534 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,479 Speaker 1: to do all these things that i'd actually, you know, 535 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: innately like my deep inner like self concept did not 536 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: want me to do these things because it wasn't free 537 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: and it wasn't liberating. But I did them anyways, So 538 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: now you should have to. And that's where I think 539 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: it comes from. 540 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 2: It is kind of this. We see this with the 541 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: feminist waves too. We see this regression almost where older 542 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: women of previous waves resent the choices we now have. 543 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: And yes, and It's interesting because all I hope for 544 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: myself is that when I become an older woman, that 545 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: I champion the next generation of women. Yeah, and the 546 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: changes they want to make, because they might be different 547 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: fights to mine, but they are reflective of the new 548 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: frontier of what they're seeking next. And it must be 549 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: hard to be left out of that. If you have 550 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: two choices though, you can lie down and complain or 551 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: you can get up and join them. 552 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know who I think is so great at that. Like, 553 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna give a shout out to my grandma, 554 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: who's like, oh my god, the truest feminists that ever 555 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: fucking lived. Like, she is just so open and curious. 556 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: And she you know, she said this to me the 557 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: other day. She's American and she had to vote in 558 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: the recent election, and she said, whenever I vote, like, 559 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,719 Speaker 1: I choose to vote for the for the person in 560 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: who I imagine is doing it the hardest. And I think, 561 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: what how would they vote? And I vote that way? 562 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: This is exactly right. Use your vote for someone less 563 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: privileged than yourself. Yeah, And she brings out to like 564 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: her feminist principles as well. She's like, I don't understand it. 565 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're doing, but like cool down 566 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: for that, don't care. Her big thing is like cosmetic surgery. 567 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: That's my big thing too. 568 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,959 Speaker 1: Actually yeah, and she's and that's like her big thing. 569 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: Where it's like it is the ultimate frontier of like 570 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: I think in my mind, like it's the ultimate frontier 571 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: of internalized misogyny versus like freedom of women to do 572 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: what they want. But then like, are the insecurity is 573 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: only coming from it's a whole. 574 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 2: Well, I think that that's what the pick me conversation 575 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: is about too, because are we just being sort of 576 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: playing into the problem by criticizing other women. But then 577 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 2: it comes back to this idea of what choice feminism is, 578 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: which is the idea which I disagree with, that anything 579 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: that a woman does is inherently feminist because a woman 580 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 2: made that decision. But it's about individualism, it's about individualism 581 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: versus collective action. Then too, and when we are playing 582 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 2: into a system that hates us, we are still feeding, 583 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: monetizing and continuing a vicious cycle. And cosmetic procedures is 584 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: another way pick me girls play into the male gaze. 585 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 2: And it's not everyone that gets botox or has cosmetic 586 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: privigues as a pick me. God, That's not what I'm saying, 587 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: but we do need to assess at a higher level 588 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: and step back from our immediate want to remove an 589 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: insecurity and think who am I doing this for? 590 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's act like the exact best 591 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: way to think about it is all right, this is 592 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: still your choice and it will always be your choice, 593 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: but part of the choice is like a thought process 594 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: behind it. With any choice, again, it's fact like the 595 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: thing we were talking about with like marriage or choosing 596 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: to be child free, any choice, like you give up something, 597 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: and interrogating the reason that you choose to do something 598 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: I think is important and I know that like previously 599 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: it was like makeup, I think we've all gotten to 600 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: the point where like no, no makeup is self expression 601 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: as well as like a asking in insecurity. And I wonder, 602 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: like where that discussion is gonna go with cosmetic surgery, 603 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: because I honestly don't have an opinion on it. I'm 604 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: completely stuck on the fence with it. 605 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 2: I am anti cosmetic surgery, but I love having conversations 606 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: about this because I'm so willing to change your mind 607 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 2: on this, and I think we should all be like 608 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: that with a range of topics. But one of the 609 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: conversations I had with the follower of mine when I 610 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: was posting about this recently was she said, you actually 611 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: haven't aged yet, and so it's very easy from you 612 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: from a twenty six year old's body to say I'm 613 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: against engaging in and feeding into the anti aging industry, 614 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: the beauty industry, when actually you have the privilege of 615 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: youth still and you don't know how you'll feel about 616 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: your body and what that means to see it change 617 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: down the line. I thought that was a fantastic criticism 618 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: that really made me think about my argument. 619 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: Wow, I've never thought of that. I kind of got chills. 620 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was amazing. I don't think I've changed my position. Yeah, 621 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: I really thought about it, and it's I'm never applying 622 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: a judgment to an individual for making the choice. I 623 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: want us as individuals to come together and critique the 624 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: system that has made us feel we need to do this. 625 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: And the other thing that I actually saw I had 626 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: a similar conversation with someone offline and she was like, Okay, 627 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: but don't you understand like being hot makes you powerful? 628 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: So and it's true, it's like it is very very true. 629 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: So maybe it's like you accept, you embrace the evil 630 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: for the good. I did. I on the fence about it. 631 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: Didn't agree, now that agreed nor disagreed. Thought it was 632 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: an interesting point. She was like, Okay, if I want 633 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: to be someone who breaks the glass ceiling, and that's 634 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: the first step, right, we just want to break the ceiling, 635 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: get the hole open so all the other birdies can 636 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: fly out. That was not a metaphor the women just 637 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: you know, it was a metaphor for an a trim 638 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: like that Bertie is that's so funny anyhow, And she 639 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: was like, okay, so if I want to be someone 640 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: who can like walk in a room and like you know, 641 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: change policy or change change like institutions, or convince people 642 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,239 Speaker 1: to donate more to a charity or this or that, 643 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: or support the arts, like if I'm hot, I can 644 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: do that better. And so is that like I've decided 645 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: to play into the game for the greater good. And 646 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: she made this like very interesting argument for it. 647 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 2: I think it's a compelling argument, but I think it's 648 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 2: immediately tarnished in a way by saying that is a 649 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: woman locking the door behind her because there are other 650 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 2: women who do not have the same privilege or baseline. 651 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, because we know. 652 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 2: That pretty beautiful beauty exists on a spectrum. And as 653 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: much as I want, we want to say everyone's beautiful, 654 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: we know that it's still hierarchical and that Western beauty 655 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: standards mean that it's like thin white women that benefit, right, Yeah, 656 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: And so I would always say, like, of course, do 657 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: what you want to do. I do want people to 658 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: lean in if they want to wear a certain thing 659 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: and fashion and make up our art forms. The woman 660 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: talking about being hot and pretty privilege, Yes, that's an 661 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 2: argument that I think is really interesting to explore. But 662 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: are you just again locking that door and pulling up 663 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: the ladder from behind you for other women who cannot 664 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: reach that same height. 665 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to bring that back to her. Maybe she's 666 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: listening to this episode. I want to see what she says, 667 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: all right. I want to finish up by just talking 668 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: about something that I get asked about a lot from listeners. 669 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: Is a lot of my female listeners will be like, 670 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: I've just sided a new job, got my first big 671 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: girl job. I'm in the corporate environment, I'm in finance, 672 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: I'm in whatever. How do I asert myself in this 673 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: male dominated space, Like, how do I say I just 674 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: love to be here without feeling like I'm going to 675 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: be thinking about someone that messaged me recently? And I'm paraphrasing, 676 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: but she was basically like, how do I do this? 677 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: How do I stand out? How do I be myself 678 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: without feeling like I'm going to be punished for that. 679 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 2: I think that there's a few elements here. First is communication, 680 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: and I would say keeping records of things. That sounds 681 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: a bit suspicious in all these things, but I think 682 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: that in corporate workplaces, I actually used to work for 683 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: a union and be like in sort of employment law 684 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: and defending people, so like a lot of my role 685 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 2: was protection self protection for people. What I mean by 686 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: this is when you want to prove what you're doing 687 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: at work and assert your worth and the role you're 688 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 2: playing here in this ecosystem, keep records of achievements, keep 689 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: records of well done projects and tasks, keep records of 690 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: great emails, keep records of problems you find in the workplace. 691 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: If you've asserted a policy problem, if you've asserted lacking organizations, 692 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 2: if you've asserted concerns about a particular employee, like are 693 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: you someone who's harassing you or something? Keep a written 694 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: record of what's going on is one thing. Two is 695 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 2: make sure you're getting paid what you're worth. There is 696 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 2: nothing like organizing like pay reviews six monthly, talking about metrics, 697 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 2: where your hierarchy work, what your dreams and visions are, 698 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: what your plan is, what you actually are interested in, 699 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: pursuing your passions in the workplace, and where you want 700 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: to go. I think a lot of this before we 701 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: get to the stage of like how do I assert 702 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 2: myself at work? Is getting really comfortable knowing what you're after. 703 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: Because when you know what you're seeking, and you have goals, 704 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 2: and you have a plan and an outline, and you 705 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 2: know what you're good at and you believe in that, 706 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: that means that when you are in the workplace, you 707 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 2: feel a lot more comfortable having tough conversations, whether it 708 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: be with other employees in conflict, whether it be with management, 709 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: in seeking reviews, performance updates, going further in the workplace. 710 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: But I think that this can be difficult because we 711 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 2: know there's a lot of tox workplaces around. But knowing 712 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: your rights at work, knowing what you can and can't do, 713 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 2: and knowing which boundaries you want to push, which boundaries 714 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: you want to respect, and what you want to make change. 715 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: Doing is incredibly important because I'm not going to say 716 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 2: to you like get in there and go and start 717 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: a fight, or you know, like get in the morning 718 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 2: tea and no. 719 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: No. 720 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 2: I think that we need to understand which rules are 721 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: worth breaking and why. And I think we need to 722 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 2: understand what we want from work because I think it's 723 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 2: also about putting in place boundaries like I don't go 724 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 2: home after six pm because I don't want to start 725 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 2: setting the boundary that I will do anything to stay back, 726 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 2: and I work much harder than others. There's this fine 727 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 2: balance between kind of emerging out of a girl Boss era. 728 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 2: So we don't want people killing themselves at work for 729 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 2: crumbs and being walked on. I want people to assert 730 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 2: their worth in the workplace by getting things done well, 731 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: asking the right questions, asking and expecting better for themselves, 732 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: working hard but working smart too. 733 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: Well way that I do this and I like what 734 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: you said about you know, we're exiting the boss era. 735 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: We are moving on from that. We're all about respecting 736 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: our self worth as people who aren't just machines. But 737 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: in any interaction anything where I have to as sert 738 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: a boundary, I just imagine the person that I admire 739 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: most doing that for me. So I think, like I'm 740 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: trying to think about, like who I would choose for 741 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,919 Speaker 1: this example, for like a workplace example, had a really 742 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: amazing boss manager when I was a management consultant. Her 743 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: name was Heidi and she's just a legend. And sometimes 744 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: when I'd have to like assert myself and be like, no, 745 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: I'm going home because it's my grandma's birthday or I'm 746 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: going home because of X y Z, I would just 747 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: imagine that she was there instead being like, oh, yeah, 748 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: by the way, Jemy needs to leave. Yeah, And I 749 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: would just like picture that like she was right there 750 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: with me, or I would picture that I was her, 751 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: and what would she say in that circumstance, what would 752 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: she do? How would she act? I use this in 753 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: every situation. 754 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 2: It reminds me of like my approach to dating last 755 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 2: year was be the person you want to date. 756 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: I like that. 757 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 2: Applying it to this is like be the person you'd 758 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: want to employ. Yeah, So it doesn't mean working a 759 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 2: fourteen hour day. You wouldn't want that of your employee, 760 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: because we don't expect that of our employees, right. We 761 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 2: would want someone who turns up to work on time 762 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 2: or lets us know why, communicates clearly, communicates kindly, has 763 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 2: you know, brings their personality to work, is respectful and 764 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 2: has great conversations and does high quality work and challenges themselves. 765 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the other thing is like work does 766 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: feel like a huge part of your personality, but it's 767 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: not your entire identity. No, And you actually can't be 768 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: someone who is a good employee who's going to get 769 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 1: ahead if you give everything to your workplace and leave 770 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: nothing for yourself. So I love that. 771 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 2: As a self employed people too, I'm like, I need 772 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 2: to take my own advice. 773 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it doesn't apply to us stuff I've got dah. 774 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 2: But that's the other thing I would say. And it's 775 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 2: to do with all of this. So often our views 776 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 2: are more progressive and what would be what would you 777 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 2: say to your friend? But not what are you not 778 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: applying to yourself in these circumstances? Something to really reflect 779 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 2: on too. 780 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: I do this to my sister all the time, Like 781 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: my sister's a professional athlete, and I'm always like, no, 782 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: like stand off for yourself, like, don't let them boss 783 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: you around demand more money. And then in my situations, 784 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I don't think I've ever been out 785 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: on the podcast before, but it is how it is. 786 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 1: All right, we're going to wrap up. But I asked 787 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: this final question of everyone, and I just love to 788 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: hear what they have to say. What is one piece 789 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: of advice you would have for people in their twenties. 790 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: Doesn't have to be about what we talked about today. 791 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 2: This is a bit random. I've actually never given this advice, 792 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 2: like in a formal way on podcasts. Is usually reserved 793 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 2: for my closest friends. And it might sound a bit 794 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 2: strange because there's so much more inspirational, pinteresty sort of 795 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 2: stuff that I could go for here. But in your relationships, 796 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: your close relationships, whether it be romantic friendship, whenever someone's 797 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 2: going through a hard conflict at work, whatever with their 798 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 2: romantic partner, I always say, what is your threshold at 799 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 2: the basement, And like, what I mean is how low 800 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,399 Speaker 2: are you willing to go? Because what I've found over 801 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: the last few years in dating and in friendships and 802 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: things is when I get upset in a relationship I'm struggling. 803 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 2: Often you're being depleted one percent at a time, so 804 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 2: I think like, oh, you know, they did this last 805 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 2: week and they did this this week. But neither of 806 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 2: those things feel like an adequate amount to cause a 807 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 2: problem over or start a conflict. And what ends up 808 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 2: happening often is you end up twenty five percent depleted 809 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 2: and not knowing how you got there, how You're like 810 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: all of these one percent items, these tiny little things 811 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: have built up, and it feels ridiculous to bring them up, 812 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 2: but I'm not happy. And the advice I would give 813 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 2: is to find really clearly where your bottom line is 814 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 2: in your relationships, because for a lot of people it's 815 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 2: like cheating or like a friend like fundamentally betraying you 816 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 2: in some very significant way. And I think we need 817 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 2: to improve our boundaries and understanding of ourselves and what 818 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 2: we expect from our relationships. So instead of waiting to 819 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 2: find the basement, I would say to people, know where 820 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 2: your basement is, because it allows you a sense of 821 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 2: self respect and understanding, and it helps you raise conflict 822 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 2: and concerns earlier. 823 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: That's fabulous advice and no one's given it before. Oh thanks, 824 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: it's a really really good one know where your basement is, 825 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: how low you go limbo a limbo job. 826 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 2: I think it's because often we just find ourselves like 827 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 2: I can't believe I got here because it's been seven 828 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 2: minor or medium things. Yeah, and it's it's gone past 829 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 2: the basement and you don't know how you got there. 830 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 2: And I never want people to feel like that. 831 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: And I'm sure people listening to this you're probably thinking 832 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: of your own example right now, Like in your brain, 833 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: you're thinking about a friendship or a relationship, or a 834 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: work instance or a nahbor whatever that you have not 835 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: done this for and now you can do it. 836 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 837 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,439 Speaker 1: So, Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the show, 838 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I'm going to link every single 839 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: place that you can find her in the show description, 840 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: including her amazing podcast Big Small Talk and Big Talk. 841 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 2: And soon to be another one another one you could 842 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 2: probably guess what it's called. 843 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, leave your suggestions in the comments. And also I 844 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: would really really tell you if you liked this conversation 845 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: to follow cheek Media because it's incredible where I get 846 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: so much little tidbits of information from. As always, if 847 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you give us 848 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: a five star review. Follow along, leave a comment, leave 849 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: some kind words. Follow us on Instagram at that Psychology 850 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: Podcast if you want to see what new episodes we 851 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: have coming out, if you want to leave a comment 852 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: or leave a suggestion, or have a discussion about what 853 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: we talked about in this episode. If you agree, if 854 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 1: you disagree, we still love to hear from you regardless, 855 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: and until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle 856 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: with yourself as we enter the holiday's season, and we 857 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: will talk very very soon.