WEBVTT - Best of Risky Business: Life After Poker (with Vanessa Selbst) 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:28.284 Pushkin, Hey, risky business listeners. 0:00:28.324 --> 0:00:31.124 As you listen this episode, we're probably still recovering from 0:00:31.124 --> 0:00:35.084 New Year's Eve or in a crowded airport somewhere. So 0:00:35.164 --> 0:00:36.964 today we're bringing you one of our favorite interviews in 0:00:37.004 --> 0:00:39.724 twenty twenty five to help bring in twenty twenty six. 0:00:40.244 --> 0:00:42.724 Yeah, and this is an interview with one of our 0:00:42.844 --> 0:00:46.444 favorite poker players and favorite people in the poker world. 0:00:46.564 --> 0:00:54.004 Please enjoy. Today on the show, we have a very 0:00:54.124 --> 0:00:59.644 special guest, Vanessa Seltst. Vanessa and I first met when 0:00:59.644 --> 0:01:04.004 we were both Poker Stars Team pros. I was just 0:01:04.044 --> 0:01:06.924 starting out playing poker and Vanessa was just getting the 0:01:06.924 --> 0:01:11.324 hell out of there. And Vanessa remains one of the 0:01:11.364 --> 0:01:14.644 most impressive people I have ever met in or out 0:01:14.684 --> 0:01:20.484 of poker. Yale Undergrad, Yale Law School. Only female poker 0:01:20.524 --> 0:01:24.164 player ever to have reached number one on the GPI 0:01:24.284 --> 0:01:29.684 that's Global Poker Index rankings overall, so both men and 0:01:29.724 --> 0:01:33.564 women like just number one, period, but only female to 0:01:33.644 --> 0:01:37.044 have ever done that. Over eleven million in earnings, three 0:01:37.084 --> 0:01:40.804 World Series of Poker bracelets, and then left it all behind, 0:01:41.164 --> 0:01:46.444 left that glamorous life behind to join Bridgewater Associates and 0:01:46.724 --> 0:01:50.644 go into the Hedge Fund World, after which she went 0:01:50.764 --> 0:01:54.164 to Jane Street Capital, which is where we find her today. 0:01:54.684 --> 0:01:56.324 Welcome to the show, Vanessa. 0:01:56.124 --> 0:02:01.164 Thanks Maria, thank you for that intro. Definitely more than 0:02:01.164 --> 0:02:03.644 I deserve, but I appreciate it nonetheless. 0:02:04.484 --> 0:02:06.084 And Nate, how long have you known Vanessa? 0:02:07.004 --> 0:02:09.244 I think I knew her kind of about the time, 0:02:09.604 --> 0:02:11.924 maybe when she quit. Maybe I reached out and I'm like, oh, 0:02:12.044 --> 0:02:13.884 you know, if you've kind of left poke for other things. 0:02:14.004 --> 0:02:16.404 I know, since it was stupid cold email, I think 0:02:16.524 --> 0:02:18.724 we wound up becoming friends and we have a lot 0:02:18.764 --> 0:02:21.364 in common, and so I'm a huge admirer of Vanessa 0:02:21.404 --> 0:02:21.844 as well. 0:02:22.204 --> 0:02:23.284 That's not right at all, Nate. 0:02:23.444 --> 0:02:28.284 We met at a really awkward well, my wife was joking, 0:02:28.364 --> 0:02:29.444 was like a really awkward date. 0:02:29.524 --> 0:02:31.964 You don't remember this, And at Aussie Millions and like. 0:02:31.804 --> 0:02:34.044 Oh millions, okay, when are we. 0:02:34.204 --> 0:02:36.324 Twelve or twenty fourteen? I don't even know what year 0:02:36.324 --> 0:02:39.084 it was, but like I don't know. The people at 0:02:39.084 --> 0:02:42.204 Austin Millions were like, Nate Silver wants to meet you. 0:02:42.324 --> 0:02:43.604 I was like, oh, I want to meet him, and 0:02:43.604 --> 0:02:46.364 then we went on like like at dinner. But it 0:02:46.404 --> 0:02:48.364 was just like super awkward and funny, but like, it 0:02:48.364 --> 0:02:48.924 was a good time. 0:02:49.004 --> 0:02:49.804 I super. 0:02:53.124 --> 0:02:55.364 And then, uh so that was when we first hung out, 0:02:55.364 --> 0:02:56.844 but then we didn't really start hanging out till a 0:02:56.884 --> 0:02:58.964 few years later, so I just didn't know. That was 0:02:59.004 --> 0:03:02.244 a very special one of my awkwardest states that I've 0:03:02.284 --> 0:03:06.004 ever had, so I guess it was more meaningfully awkward 0:03:06.044 --> 0:03:08.084 to me, but that's okay, it was it was a 0:03:08.084 --> 0:03:08.484 good time. 0:03:08.724 --> 0:03:10.724 So I actually I remember the first time I met 0:03:10.764 --> 0:03:14.124 you was in Monte Carlo. It was my first ever 0:03:14.204 --> 0:03:18.244 Poker Stars stop and it was my first ever major, 0:03:18.364 --> 0:03:22.484 kind of major tournament period. I knew, you know, I 0:03:22.524 --> 0:03:26.324 had known nothing about poker, and kind of there I was, 0:03:26.444 --> 0:03:30.804 and Eric Sidell introduced us. Eric Sidell, obviously you know 0:03:30.844 --> 0:03:33.364 who he is, and listeners of the show, no, he is, 0:03:33.444 --> 0:03:35.164 you know, one of the greatest players of all time, 0:03:35.524 --> 0:03:37.364 became my coach and he was like, I want you 0:03:37.404 --> 0:03:40.444 to meet Vanessa Selts. She's really really impressive. And I 0:03:40.484 --> 0:03:43.044 was like, I don't want to meet Vanessa. She's scarce me. 0:03:45.764 --> 0:03:46.964 Yeah, that's funny. 0:03:47.004 --> 0:03:49.164 And then and then we met and at first I 0:03:49.204 --> 0:03:51.724 was like, I don't think she likes me, and Eric's like, no, no, 0:03:51.884 --> 0:03:53.844 she likes you, and then we became friends and I 0:03:53.924 --> 0:03:55.924 realized that you were actually pretty amazing. 0:03:56.764 --> 0:03:58.964 Well thanks, Yeah, it was great, great to meet the 0:03:59.004 --> 0:04:01.804 beginning of a great friendship. You know, it is funny 0:04:01.804 --> 0:04:03.844 that you say that, because there is this thing where 0:04:03.844 --> 0:04:06.844 there's this like, you know, not to get to like 0:04:07.644 --> 0:04:11.764 whatever serious about kind of a lighthearted anecdote, and it's like, 0:04:12.164 --> 0:04:14.484 there really is this thing where you're on TV and 0:04:14.524 --> 0:04:16.404 you're or you're just playing poker in general, not even 0:04:16.484 --> 0:04:18.644 on TV, where you know, you're like you have your 0:04:18.684 --> 0:04:21.244 game face, you're like in the zone, and I get 0:04:21.244 --> 0:04:23.924 really intense when I'm playing and I'm like really concentrating, 0:04:23.964 --> 0:04:27.164 and I'm also often like playing pretty aggressive. So there's 0:04:27.164 --> 0:04:30.524 this like weird like crossover between your poker style and 0:04:30.564 --> 0:04:32.964 your personality, right, and so I can come across it's 0:04:33.044 --> 0:04:36.044 like really intense, and I get really intense sometimes, like 0:04:36.084 --> 0:04:38.524 I'm really in the moment, and I think sometimes it 0:04:38.564 --> 0:04:40.564 would just be like really intense and people will be like, 0:04:40.604 --> 0:04:42.044 oh my god, who is this person? 0:04:42.164 --> 0:04:46.884 But you're you're very self I mean you're very self possessed. 0:04:47.004 --> 0:04:50.804 And I never want to make assumptions about someone's inner 0:04:51.004 --> 0:04:53.444 confidence level versus how they project outwardly? But did you 0:04:53.444 --> 0:04:56.364 feel like it was an advantage to be on TV? 0:04:58.844 --> 0:04:59.044 Oh? 0:04:59.524 --> 0:05:01.404 Like, was it an advantage that I got to be 0:05:01.444 --> 0:05:02.364 on TV playing poker? 0:05:02.484 --> 0:05:03.284 Like? Absolutely? 0:05:04.084 --> 0:05:05.804 Do you feel I guess do you feel like you 0:05:05.844 --> 0:05:10.724 played better on TV? Relative? You know, maybe everyone plays 0:05:10.764 --> 0:05:12.484 worse because there's more external factors to deal with. But 0:05:12.524 --> 0:05:16.164 did you like if you are told I'm at whatever 0:05:16.204 --> 0:05:18.684 day of the World Series main event, right you're at 0:05:18.684 --> 0:05:20.644 the future table? Is are you happy about that or not? 0:05:22.204 --> 0:05:22.404 Oh? 0:05:22.444 --> 0:05:24.444 Man, that's a complicated question. That's a good Question's a 0:05:24.484 --> 0:05:27.724 complicated question because I didn't actually like the. 0:05:27.644 --> 0:05:28.964 Act of like being on TV. 0:05:29.124 --> 0:05:31.564 If you will it just like I definitely added advantage 0:05:31.564 --> 0:05:33.724 over my competitors that are random World Series tournament where 0:05:33.724 --> 0:05:36.284 I've been on that stage a million times and they haven't, 0:05:37.084 --> 0:05:40.124 and I'm gonna make better decisions and stuff. But I 0:05:40.244 --> 0:05:43.004 just didn't like it on like a visceral level. But 0:05:43.404 --> 0:05:45.244 being on TV was actually a huge advantage for me. 0:05:45.284 --> 0:05:48.644 I kind of like utilized that. Basically. What I mean 0:05:48.684 --> 0:05:50.484 to say is like I got a reputation the first 0:05:50.484 --> 0:05:51.484 time I was ever on TV. 0:05:51.644 --> 0:05:53.244 I made this like really. 0:05:53.044 --> 0:05:55.684 Crazy bluff I four bet all in with you with 0:05:55.764 --> 0:05:58.564 two five suited. It was a thing that happens now 0:05:58.604 --> 0:06:00.724 occasionally is still considered a reckless play, but at the 0:06:00.764 --> 0:06:03.164 time it was two thousand and six and no one 0:06:03.204 --> 0:06:05.564 had ever seen anyone do that or like had any idea, 0:06:05.684 --> 0:06:07.084 you know what I mean. You re raised with like 0:06:07.124 --> 0:06:09.764 pocket aces, maybe as king if you were feeling like fluffy, 0:06:10.324 --> 0:06:13.404 you know at the time. And so when that happened, 0:06:13.484 --> 0:06:16.804 I got this reputation as being like the craziest person 0:06:17.084 --> 0:06:18.284 in the world, you know, in poker. 0:06:18.364 --> 0:06:20.524 And by the way, you managed to run into aces 0:06:20.564 --> 0:06:21.524 in that hand. 0:06:21.444 --> 0:06:23.244 I did manage to run to aces, and I don't 0:06:23.284 --> 0:06:26.044 know if that was a coincidence. Having just explained that 0:06:26.084 --> 0:06:29.924 most people at three bet usually had aces, So the 0:06:29.964 --> 0:06:31.644 point just being like it was this crazy play, and 0:06:31.684 --> 0:06:34.684 everybody kind of took notice, you know, They're like, I 0:06:34.684 --> 0:06:36.804 don't look like your typical poker player. It wasn't playing 0:06:36.844 --> 0:06:38.924 like your typical poker player, Like who is this person? 0:06:39.524 --> 0:06:41.484 And I think that stuck out in people's mind so 0:06:41.564 --> 0:06:45.164 much that I just instantly got this reputation for being 0:06:45.164 --> 0:06:48.124 this like crazy, crazy player, to the point where I 0:06:48.124 --> 0:06:50.844 would play games and I you know, I would end 0:06:50.964 --> 0:06:54.484 up in like a thousand big blind pots, meaning for 0:06:54.524 --> 0:06:56.924 the average viewer, were meaning pods that were like way 0:06:56.964 --> 0:06:59.684 bigger than your average pot, like just a giant, giant, 0:06:59.724 --> 0:07:01.844 giant pot. And I would like go all in on 0:07:01.884 --> 0:07:04.244 the river, and I would get called by like Ace High, 0:07:04.564 --> 0:07:05.964 and You're just like, how do I end up in 0:07:06.004 --> 0:07:08.204 a situation where there's like a thousand big blinds in 0:07:08.244 --> 0:07:09.964 the middle and I'm being called by A And so, 0:07:10.204 --> 0:07:11.884 anyway to get back to the original point of what 0:07:11.924 --> 0:07:13.964 I was saying, like I was just as crazy player. 0:07:14.044 --> 0:07:16.004 I was never gonna shake that image. 0:07:16.044 --> 0:07:18.484 And so it's honestly part of what led me to 0:07:18.564 --> 0:07:20.564 retire from poker, because it was pretty boring. I like 0:07:20.604 --> 0:07:23.044 really just couldn't bluff nearly as much as your average person. 0:07:23.124 --> 0:07:25.164 Like every story was like so I knew they had 0:07:25.204 --> 0:07:28.764 third pair, so I just gave up, or like, you know, 0:07:28.964 --> 0:07:30.724 or I decided I was either gonna put in you know, 0:07:30.804 --> 0:07:34.084 my entire stack or give up. And so what I 0:07:34.204 --> 0:07:36.804 ended up doing was realizing I was like, Okay, I 0:07:36.884 --> 0:07:39.924 literally I get the most action of any player ever, 0:07:40.484 --> 0:07:42.004 so I just have to play tight. This is the 0:07:42.084 --> 0:07:46.524 most profitable strategy by far. So whenever I went on TV. 0:07:47.364 --> 0:07:49.964 If there was ever a close decision between like making 0:07:50.044 --> 0:07:53.364 aggressive action like bluff or rays or just like folder call, 0:07:53.404 --> 0:07:56.004 I always took the aggressive action. And sometimes even when 0:07:56.004 --> 0:07:57.924 it wasn't a close decision, you know, like when I, 0:07:58.364 --> 0:08:00.564 you know, five bet shove with Jackson Suitor whoever. I 0:08:00.804 --> 0:08:02.804 wasn't trying to light money on fire, but it was 0:08:02.844 --> 0:08:05.004 this really weird real thing where it was like I 0:08:05.004 --> 0:08:06.564 would give up a little bit of equity or a 0:08:06.564 --> 0:08:09.204 lot of equity sometimes to just kind of maintain this 0:08:09.204 --> 0:08:11.884 crazy image because you know, and I can say this 0:08:11.964 --> 0:08:13.884 now because I don't play poker anymore, but it was 0:08:13.924 --> 0:08:17.564 like a decade of me just like playing I would say, 0:08:17.684 --> 0:08:20.564 I mean, postlop I was pretty aggressive, but like preflop 0:08:20.564 --> 0:08:22.404 I was probably tighter than like ninety percent of the 0:08:22.404 --> 0:08:26.724 table honestly, because I couldn't never shake that image anyway. 0:08:26.764 --> 0:08:28.884 So I was just like, let me use these last 0:08:28.924 --> 0:08:31.084 like TV time as a way to kind of keep 0:08:31.164 --> 0:08:33.604 up my reputation, and people just believe what they see on. 0:08:33.604 --> 0:08:36.124 TV, and that was just the most profitable way to play. 0:08:36.364 --> 0:08:39.124 Yeah, So I think you're raising a really interesting point, 0:08:39.164 --> 0:08:41.844 which is that you know, when you're talking about you know, 0:08:41.884 --> 0:08:44.124 we we love poker on this show, not just because 0:08:44.124 --> 0:08:46.204 we all play poker, but because it's such a great 0:08:46.204 --> 0:08:49.084 way of looking at decision making. And I think you 0:08:49.084 --> 0:08:51.684 you're raising a really important point, which is that no 0:08:51.804 --> 0:08:53.164 decision is made in a vacuum. 0:08:53.244 --> 0:08:53.404 Right. 0:08:53.684 --> 0:08:57.284 I have a very different reputation from yours, but you know, 0:08:57.324 --> 0:08:59.244 I've been a bounty in big events and I hate 0:08:59.284 --> 0:09:01.364 it because you can't bluff, right. It's kind of the 0:09:01.364 --> 0:09:01.764 same thing. 0:09:02.124 --> 0:09:03.884 Funny thing. We're like, we'll talk up. So you've said, 0:09:03.924 --> 0:09:06.284 I think a couple of times, Maria, we're like, okay, 0:09:06.764 --> 0:09:09.164 when you make a big shove or a big bet 0:09:09.204 --> 0:09:13.284 on the river and an opponent tanks, and if you're 0:09:13.284 --> 0:09:15.564 not a poker fan, that means they're waiting, you know, 0:09:16.684 --> 0:09:18.644 at least half a minute to several minutes to make 0:09:18.684 --> 0:09:21.444 a decision. Right. In my experience, when they tank against me, 0:09:21.524 --> 0:09:24.404 they fold two thirds of the time, right, And you 0:09:24.404 --> 0:09:25.724 said it's the opposite for me. 0:09:25.684 --> 0:09:28.004 They call right for me. The longer they tank, the 0:09:28.004 --> 0:09:30.684 more I'm like, okay, motherfucker, just call already, right, like, 0:09:31.444 --> 0:09:34.164 you know, just stop, take me out of my misery hand. 0:09:34.524 --> 0:09:37.444 And it is, you know, it is so incredibly. You know, 0:09:37.484 --> 0:09:40.084 there's I think that's one of the interesting things about poker, 0:09:40.124 --> 0:09:42.964 and I'm curious, you know how it how you see 0:09:43.004 --> 0:09:45.524 it both in poker and outside of poker, kind of 0:09:45.524 --> 0:09:48.644 that added layer to it, right, that there is it's 0:09:48.684 --> 0:09:52.364 not just the math, right, that every single risk assessment, 0:09:52.484 --> 0:09:56.644 every single decision is so dependent on the player, on 0:09:56.724 --> 0:09:59.564 the situation, on the dynamics, on all of those things. 0:09:59.724 --> 0:10:02.124 The math is there, right, the math, The math matters. 0:10:02.804 --> 0:10:05.324 But but but there's so much more going on. 0:10:05.124 --> 0:10:05.884 One hundred percent. 0:10:05.924 --> 0:10:07.804 And I think your point about like the longer it 0:10:07.844 --> 0:10:10.724 takes that being the key point of vergence is like 0:10:10.764 --> 0:10:14.404 a really a really great perception because I think that 0:10:14.644 --> 0:10:18.124 is like we have all these kind of emotional biases, 0:10:18.404 --> 0:10:22.204 and you know, like if you usually your brain is 0:10:22.244 --> 0:10:24.844 kind of leading the charge for the first like beginning 0:10:24.844 --> 0:10:27.684 of your decision making, right, and then eventually it's like 0:10:27.724 --> 0:10:31.124 the emotional the monkey brain or whatever it takes over. 0:10:31.524 --> 0:10:33.124 And that's what I used to say about, you know, 0:10:33.364 --> 0:10:35.404 to go back to that story about how people would 0:10:35.444 --> 0:10:37.644 call me with these crazy, crazy hands, and it's like 0:10:38.444 --> 0:10:40.564 there were hands where the only way to correct call 0:10:40.604 --> 0:10:43.964 if I'm like bluffing with a part of my range, 0:10:44.004 --> 0:10:46.484 Like we're in spots, you're supposed to bluff like fifteen percent. 0:10:46.524 --> 0:10:48.124 They would have to have assumed I was bluffing like 0:10:48.124 --> 0:10:51.604 eighty percent to make the call. And it's like, Okay, 0:10:51.644 --> 0:10:54.044 you see a person who's had like very good poker results. 0:10:54.604 --> 0:10:57.044 Could I be like the one point oh one percent 0:10:57.124 --> 0:10:59.764 luckiest person and just a terrible poker player. I guess 0:10:59.844 --> 0:11:03.484 it's possible, although like from a Baysian perspective, like probably, 0:11:03.564 --> 0:11:07.444 like if the other priors that like you're wrong about 0:11:07.564 --> 0:11:10.484 my range, like probably that's be a stronger prior, but 0:11:10.604 --> 0:11:13.884 like hey, never mind, So you know, people would make 0:11:13.924 --> 0:11:17.044 these calls where I'm like, Okay, the only way that 0:11:17.124 --> 0:11:18.884 this call could be correct is if I'm just a 0:11:18.964 --> 0:11:21.404 terrible player and getting lucky all the time. Like there's 0:11:21.404 --> 0:11:23.244 no way that I could be a successful player and 0:11:23.284 --> 0:11:25.284 be bluffing the frequency that it needs to be. But 0:11:25.324 --> 0:11:27.804 it didn't matter, Like it was just like I've seen 0:11:27.844 --> 0:11:29.164 you on TV. I call you know what I mean, 0:11:29.284 --> 0:11:31.284 or like I'm not going to be bluffed by you. 0:11:31.324 --> 0:11:34.964 I'm not going to be bullied by you. And it's 0:11:35.004 --> 0:11:38.844 truly incredible because if you really just thought about it 0:11:39.204 --> 0:11:42.244 from a logical decision making, like rational perspective, it would 0:11:42.284 --> 0:11:44.684 just be an absurd way to play against anyone. 0:11:44.764 --> 0:11:47.044 So I'm curious. So you think when people take longer 0:11:47.084 --> 0:11:50.124 to make a decision that they get more emotional because 0:11:50.124 --> 0:11:52.644 people would say, well, I'm going through all the all 0:11:52.644 --> 0:11:55.044 the different combinations and thinking through things carefully. You think 0:11:55.044 --> 0:11:56.324 that like actually kind of like. 0:11:56.324 --> 0:12:00.364 I think mostly there, yeah, a few people are thinking 0:12:00.444 --> 0:12:01.364 through the combinations. 0:12:01.404 --> 0:12:02.724 But even if you're thinking. 0:12:02.484 --> 0:12:04.764 Through the combinations, I think, like, even in a really 0:12:04.804 --> 0:12:07.804 complicated way, it takes you like max thirty seconds to 0:12:07.804 --> 0:12:09.964 get like ninety percent of the way there. Like, I 0:12:10.044 --> 0:12:13.724 just think that time is allowing so much more emotional 0:12:13.764 --> 0:12:17.084 stuff to creep in that it's just like the ratio 0:12:17.164 --> 0:12:20.604 of like math to emotion is just like definitely going 0:12:20.684 --> 0:12:21.684 down over time. 0:12:21.884 --> 0:12:22.564 Totally agree. 0:12:22.644 --> 0:12:25.604 If you so you were kind of playing in the 0:12:25.644 --> 0:12:29.164 era before solvers became quite so ubiquitous, if. 0:12:29.084 --> 0:12:30.964 I don't think they existed at the beginning when. 0:12:30.844 --> 0:12:32.484 I've literally never used a solver before. 0:12:32.564 --> 0:12:36.324 So, and a solver, if you're not aware at home, 0:12:36.564 --> 0:12:40.444 is a product that literally solves the Nash equilibrium for 0:12:40.484 --> 0:12:40.844 a poker. 0:12:40.964 --> 0:12:42.524 Literally since it doesn't actually exist. 0:12:42.564 --> 0:12:45.404 But yes, wait, what do you mean? Well, there's because 0:12:45.404 --> 0:12:46.564 you abrium Truther. 0:12:46.924 --> 0:12:50.244 No, but because poker is an unsolved game, it approximates 0:12:50.244 --> 0:12:50.764 a solution. 0:12:50.964 --> 0:12:52.484 But that's true, it does break down. 0:12:53.604 --> 0:12:59.724 It's wow, wow, sorry, that is true technically. Actually, you know, 0:12:59.964 --> 0:13:02.444 I feel like when you need that means literally Truther. 0:13:02.724 --> 0:13:06.724 So yeah, would you how would you play differently today? 0:13:06.804 --> 0:13:10.124 Do you think you'd try to be more quote unquote 0:13:10.164 --> 0:13:12.804 GTO driven or even or less so or this or 0:13:12.804 --> 0:13:13.124 the same? 0:13:13.244 --> 0:13:14.284 That's a great question. 0:13:14.324 --> 0:13:16.284 And so my goal is just to make the most money, right, 0:13:16.284 --> 0:13:18.644 It's not to like play in a way that makes 0:13:18.684 --> 0:13:21.444 Jane Street look more like a reasonable place and not 0:13:21.484 --> 0:13:25.404 make crazy bluffs. Right. So okay, just under that premise, 0:13:25.444 --> 0:13:30.204 I would say, I think I mean so in my career, 0:13:30.644 --> 0:13:33.844 I'm a trader, like poker player, trader whatever it is, 0:13:33.884 --> 0:13:36.124 Like you think about where does your edge come from? 0:13:37.124 --> 0:13:41.444 And it's certainly for me not in playing GTO better 0:13:41.484 --> 0:13:45.124 than anybody else at this point, Like I've literally never 0:13:45.364 --> 0:13:47.764 used to solver, I've never studied it. I'm also very 0:13:47.804 --> 0:13:51.124 unpracticed from the game, and so I don't even remember 0:13:51.284 --> 0:13:53.364 like what the lines I'm supposed to take in various spots. 0:13:53.364 --> 0:13:55.204 Are like I used to come close enough to what 0:13:55.244 --> 0:13:56.804 the solvers would say if I had used them. 0:13:56.804 --> 0:13:58.164 It was actually like pretty cool. 0:13:58.164 --> 0:13:59.604 I would ask my friends, and I'd be like, I 0:13:59.684 --> 0:14:01.724 kind of got there, you know, just from understanding the 0:14:01.724 --> 0:14:05.204 theoretical underpinnings of the game. And I'm pretty far from 0:14:05.204 --> 0:14:07.484 that because I really play maybe once or twice a 0:14:07.604 --> 0:14:10.124 year at this point for the last most decades, so 0:14:11.364 --> 0:14:14.364 you know, I don't have to play less GGO. My 0:14:14.444 --> 0:14:16.644 strategy back then was to put people, you know, people 0:14:16.644 --> 0:14:18.404 that were trying to play gto that I thought were 0:14:18.444 --> 0:14:21.724 just kind of like memorizing and like there was there's 0:14:21.724 --> 0:14:23.964 this class of poker players that was like successful because 0:14:23.964 --> 0:14:26.484 they were good at memorizing things and not not that 0:14:26.564 --> 0:14:29.604 great at thinking through things. And so I was like, Okay, 0:14:29.684 --> 0:14:31.844 let me sacrifice a little bit of EV on an 0:14:31.884 --> 0:14:35.164 early part of the hand in order to get them 0:14:35.204 --> 0:14:37.524 into a spot they're very unused to, uncomfortable with, and 0:14:37.564 --> 0:14:39.524 just outreason them in a spot where the pot is 0:14:39.604 --> 0:14:42.884 much bigger. And I would just do that repeatedly, and 0:14:42.964 --> 0:14:46.004 kind of through doing that, I would you know, kind 0:14:46.004 --> 0:14:49.044 of figure out where the population where most players were 0:14:49.044 --> 0:14:52.884 making the most mistakes, and you know, and so I 0:14:52.884 --> 0:14:55.084 think I would just do that, but even more because 0:14:55.884 --> 0:14:58.044 I think my edge there is probably still similar to 0:14:58.044 --> 0:14:59.924 what it is now. You know, it would take me 0:14:59.924 --> 0:15:01.924 a while. I probably wouldn't be winning at first doing that, 0:15:02.004 --> 0:15:04.724 because I think part of the reason that was such 0:15:04.724 --> 0:15:07.764 a successful strategy for me was like I would just 0:15:07.804 --> 0:15:10.284 see the same thing over and over. I would be like, 0:15:10.604 --> 0:15:12.684 you know, I don't know, not to make it too pokery, 0:15:12.684 --> 0:15:14.404 but I'd be like, oh, I check the turn in 0:15:14.444 --> 0:15:16.044 a spot that no one would and then I would 0:15:16.084 --> 0:15:18.604 like raise small and then you know whatever, like some 0:15:18.684 --> 0:15:20.484 weird line that no one dates. But I would take 0:15:20.484 --> 0:15:22.524 it a lot, And so I would see how people 0:15:22.564 --> 0:15:25.684 would react over and over again. But I think, like 0:15:25.724 --> 0:15:28.204 whenever you're making any decision, and I think this applies 0:15:28.284 --> 0:15:30.844 to trading way even more than poker, it's just like 0:15:30.884 --> 0:15:34.604 thinking through really really carefully, like where does your edge 0:15:34.644 --> 0:15:36.564 come from? Where does my edge not come from? Where 0:15:36.604 --> 0:15:39.164 am I getting out played? And so that would have 0:15:39.244 --> 0:15:39.924 to be the answers. 0:15:40.004 --> 0:15:43.924 No, I would much rather play against like a gto 0:15:45.084 --> 0:15:47.804 perfect player than like Vanessa. 0:15:48.004 --> 0:15:50.324 I think it's such a smart strategy both in poke 0:15:50.364 --> 0:15:53.644 around in life, to put people in parts of the 0:15:53.684 --> 0:15:56.684 game tree where they're not as familiar, right, get them 0:15:56.764 --> 0:15:59.324 out of their comfort zone. And I've been on the 0:15:59.364 --> 0:16:01.444 receiving end of that when I was just starting out. 0:16:01.484 --> 0:16:03.604 There are some people who are very exploitive players. I 0:16:03.644 --> 0:16:06.084 still remember a hand I played against someone, you know, 0:16:06.204 --> 0:16:10.004 Vanessa Joe Chong, and he defended the blinds. I was 0:16:10.044 --> 0:16:12.484 the pre flop raiser. He checked, I bet, and then 0:16:12.524 --> 0:16:15.644 he led the turn and I was already planning to 0:16:16.084 --> 0:16:18.524 bet that turn. I was. It was a perfect barrel cart, 0:16:18.564 --> 0:16:21.164 and he led it. I was like, what the hell 0:16:21.764 --> 0:16:21.964 are you? 0:16:22.044 --> 0:16:22.764 What are you doing? 0:16:23.324 --> 0:16:26.684 And it really I messed up. I ended up busting 0:16:26.724 --> 0:16:27.724 the tournament on that hand. 0:16:28.564 --> 0:16:30.404 And he's probably done that a bunch of times, and 0:16:30.484 --> 0:16:32.964 now he kind of understands how people in their first 0:16:32.964 --> 0:16:35.964 time reacting to that react and you know, the mistakes 0:16:35.964 --> 0:16:36.924 wind up being way bigger. 0:16:37.004 --> 0:16:38.204 Yeah, so he's making. 0:16:38.004 --> 0:16:38.804 A conscious decision. 0:16:38.884 --> 0:16:39.004 You know. 0:16:39.044 --> 0:16:39.884 It's really interesting. 0:16:40.044 --> 0:16:41.884 One thing I have heard that Once again, I don't 0:16:41.884 --> 0:16:43.884 know anything about this, so if i'm I might be 0:16:43.884 --> 0:16:45.804 speaking on my ass, But I think you can like 0:16:45.844 --> 0:16:49.644 do things like node lock. So if you make some 0:16:50.044 --> 0:16:53.044 assumptions about you know, the way or player will react 0:16:53.684 --> 0:16:56.684 in a certain spot. You can like, you know, that's 0:16:56.684 --> 0:16:58.484 different than GTO. I think you can node luck and 0:16:58.524 --> 0:17:00.124 then you can like kind of go back and say, okay, 0:17:00.164 --> 0:17:04.004 like conditional on them reacting a certain way, what is 0:17:04.044 --> 0:17:06.244 my GTO play and like that's what GGO is about. 0:17:06.284 --> 0:17:08.444 It's not or that's what like just I guess solid 0:17:08.444 --> 0:17:10.964 strategy and anything is. It's not like supposed to be 0:17:11.004 --> 0:17:13.444 this rigid thing. It's supposed to be a way to say, okay, 0:17:13.724 --> 0:17:17.044 conditional on these assumptions I'm making about the world, what 0:17:17.204 --> 0:17:19.444 is the best course of action? The problem is that 0:17:19.644 --> 0:17:23.164 gdo pure GTO. The assumption that it's relying on is 0:17:23.164 --> 0:17:26.724 that everybody else is going to play perfectly. And then 0:17:26.764 --> 0:17:29.004 if you condition on different assumptions, it's going to tell 0:17:29.044 --> 0:17:30.164 you like different things. 0:17:30.364 --> 0:17:31.524 And so that's pretty cool. 0:17:35.804 --> 0:17:48.924 And we'll be back right after this. You have a 0:17:49.004 --> 0:17:53.484 unique background for people who went into the world of poker, 0:17:54.004 --> 0:17:56.084 and I mean, I think something that unites a lot 0:17:56.124 --> 0:17:59.324 of what you've done is kind of the competitive edge 0:17:59.364 --> 0:18:02.124 to it, the love of games. But you went to 0:18:02.204 --> 0:18:05.124 undergrad you studied political science, right, and then you played 0:18:05.164 --> 0:18:09.364 poker after that, but then even though you were ridiculously successful, 0:18:09.764 --> 0:18:13.444 you didn't go pro. You went to law school. And 0:18:13.644 --> 0:18:16.724 only then after law school did you did you go 0:18:16.764 --> 0:18:20.444 into professional poker. Can you talk us through that and 0:18:20.484 --> 0:18:24.044 how kind of how that thinking went and kind of 0:18:24.084 --> 0:18:27.604 what what the strand, whether the strand that I have 0:18:27.764 --> 0:18:29.764 picked out, kind of the competition and kind of the 0:18:29.804 --> 0:18:32.284 game aspect of it is correct or not? You know, 0:18:32.324 --> 0:18:33.404 how did that all work out? 0:18:33.444 --> 0:18:34.884 It's not that deep for me. 0:18:35.004 --> 0:18:37.884 It was mostly me trying to convince myself I'm not 0:18:37.884 --> 0:18:43.884 a degenerate, when in fact I am a degenerate. So yeah, 0:18:43.964 --> 0:18:46.724 that was I mean, honestly, it was a lot of like, oh, 0:18:46.804 --> 0:18:48.684 this isn't actually what I'm doing for a career, right, 0:18:48.724 --> 0:18:52.004 Like that's not a real career, and so it was 0:18:52.084 --> 0:18:53.684 much more like a hobby. And honestly, it kind of 0:18:53.684 --> 0:18:54.844 always was a hobby for me. 0:18:55.204 --> 0:18:56.204 When did you start playing? 0:18:57.204 --> 0:18:59.644 And like, well, I mean I started playing in high school, 0:18:59.684 --> 0:19:02.604 like when we watched rounders. Oh, my friends and I 0:19:02.644 --> 0:19:07.124 love to play. Yeah, old school and so yeah, my 0:19:07.164 --> 0:19:08.764 friends and I used to play in like the lunch room. 0:19:08.844 --> 0:19:11.804 But but I started getting more serious at Yale there 0:19:11.844 --> 0:19:15.004 was a like a game where like a bunch of 0:19:15.004 --> 0:19:16.764 people were like getting pretty serious about the game. And 0:19:16.804 --> 0:19:18.564 I discovered two plus two and I started going to 0:19:18.564 --> 0:19:21.724 Foxwits every week, and you know, so the story goes 0:19:22.884 --> 0:19:24.764 and then so I played for a few years and 0:19:24.804 --> 0:19:26.484 it was okay. But then I don't know, I just 0:19:26.524 --> 0:19:29.484 like thought, I don't know, you know, like you're from 0:19:29.604 --> 0:19:32.404 like an upper middle class Jewish background. You're like, you know, 0:19:32.444 --> 0:19:34.884 you're taught like education, blah blah blah, like I'd done 0:19:34.924 --> 0:19:36.764 well in school. I thought that was kind of just 0:19:36.804 --> 0:19:38.204 like the path. I thought this was just kind of 0:19:38.204 --> 0:19:42.924 like a fun sidetrack thing for me. And so yeah, 0:19:42.964 --> 0:19:44.524 I took all my money offline when I went to 0:19:44.604 --> 0:19:46.604 law school, and I was like, I'm not not doing this. 0:19:46.684 --> 0:19:49.284 I'm not gonna like fall into playing pograming nor my studies. 0:19:49.324 --> 0:19:51.124 This is like a great opportunity. That's what I always 0:19:51.164 --> 0:19:51.684 wanted to do. 0:19:52.684 --> 0:19:54.484 And you'd always wanted to be a lawyer. 0:19:55.044 --> 0:19:56.924 Yeah, yeah, I thought I did. 0:19:57.004 --> 0:19:58.924 I mean that, you know, there's like, you know, you 0:19:58.924 --> 0:20:01.924 don't know what careers actually are available to when you're younger, but. 0:20:02.124 --> 0:20:03.484 It's kind of done that they make you pick when 0:20:03.484 --> 0:20:03.884 you're young. 0:20:04.724 --> 0:20:08.484 Yeah, I know, but uh yeah, so I had no idea, 0:20:08.484 --> 0:20:11.804 so thought I wanted to be a layer, and I 0:20:11.844 --> 0:20:14.004 just ended up falling back into poker because I just 0:20:14.124 --> 0:20:16.644 ran like hotter than the sun. In law school, Like 0:20:16.684 --> 0:20:20.644 there were these four tournaments that I played, like two 0:20:20.804 --> 0:20:22.564 there was one tournament fox that it's in one tournament 0:20:22.644 --> 0:20:26.604 Mohigan both years, and I played some like it was 0:20:26.684 --> 0:20:28.804 like you know, a three K, a three k there 0:20:28.844 --> 0:20:30.644 was a main event or and I just like won 0:20:30.724 --> 0:20:32.044 three of them and got third in. 0:20:32.004 --> 0:20:36.364 The other one. It was like, yeah, it was really dumb. 0:20:36.404 --> 0:20:37.764 It was, I mean, part of it was probably like 0:20:37.764 --> 0:20:39.724 I was not being in my own head anymore about 0:20:39.804 --> 0:20:41.164 like I was still not far enough from a move 0:20:41.204 --> 0:20:42.324 poker that was still pretty good at it. 0:20:42.364 --> 0:20:43.524 Everybody else was terrible at. 0:20:43.404 --> 0:20:47.364 That time, and I was just like feeling it, you 0:20:47.404 --> 0:20:48.684 know what I mean, I didn't care. I was just 0:20:48.684 --> 0:20:50.844 playing my game and stuff. So I obviously I was 0:20:50.844 --> 0:20:53.524 also running hotter than the sun, and so I kind 0:20:53.524 --> 0:20:54.724 of just fell back into it at that point. 0:20:54.764 --> 0:20:56.804 Have you seen twenty one, which is a movie adaptation 0:20:56.844 --> 0:20:59.844 to bring down the House? Right, They like fly back 0:20:59.924 --> 0:21:03.324 from like Vegas with like tens of thousands of dollars 0:21:03.364 --> 0:21:04.884 in their pockets, right, and they have to like go 0:21:05.004 --> 0:21:07.764 to their fucking like Monday morning classes where you feel 0:21:07.804 --> 0:21:11.164 like I am cooler and or smarter than these people. 0:21:11.644 --> 0:21:13.804 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean not cooler or smarter. That 0:21:13.844 --> 0:21:15.924 definitely was smarter, was definitely not up there. 0:21:15.964 --> 0:21:16.564 But I was like. 0:21:16.484 --> 0:21:18.764 Definitely, like, honestly, I would better, you know what I mean. 0:21:18.804 --> 0:21:20.844 I felt like on top of the world for sure. 0:21:21.364 --> 0:21:22.364 It was always really fun. 0:21:22.404 --> 0:21:24.124 So how long were you kind of doing the whole 0:21:25.084 --> 0:21:28.564 poker tournament live world travel scene and like just because 0:21:28.644 --> 0:21:30.724 like not many people do that, right, And yeah, I'm 0:21:30.764 --> 0:21:32.964 interested in you because you're not somebody I think if you, 0:21:32.964 --> 0:21:35.244 you know, you have a lot of attitude Panessa at 0:21:35.964 --> 0:21:38.244 a lot of a lot of things. Yeah, so you 0:21:38.324 --> 0:21:40.004 might not always find your way into this. But like, 0:21:40.044 --> 0:21:43.324 what's it like for someone like you, young, openly gay, 0:21:43.404 --> 0:21:46.284 very bright, has you know, is interested in politics in 0:21:46.284 --> 0:21:48.444 the world. What's it like kind of being on the 0:21:48.484 --> 0:21:51.004 poker scene for a few years, the kind of grindiness 0:21:51.004 --> 0:21:52.284 of it or the glamour of it. 0:21:53.044 --> 0:21:59.004 Yeah, honestly, I like never really felt like a poker pro. 0:21:59.084 --> 0:22:00.964 And I know that's weird to say, to answer your question, 0:22:01.004 --> 0:22:04.164 I played. I would say it was like close as 0:22:04.164 --> 0:22:06.404 close to full time as I ever was from twenty 0:22:06.484 --> 0:22:09.564 eleven to twenty seventeen. So that was kind of like 0:22:09.564 --> 0:22:11.764 the main part of my poker career when I was 0:22:11.844 --> 0:22:15.924 mostly not doing other things, although I still dabbled, dabbled 0:22:15.964 --> 0:22:18.164 in law because I think I was still always trying 0:22:18.164 --> 0:22:21.364 to convince myself that I wasn't really a poker player 0:22:21.524 --> 0:22:21.924 or something. 0:22:22.484 --> 0:22:25.924 But yeah, because honestly, it was hard. 0:22:25.924 --> 0:22:28.364 It was, like I think, it can be really fun, 0:22:28.684 --> 0:22:31.284 you know, you you know like it it's you know, 0:22:31.324 --> 0:22:34.324 you're playing poker. It's the ultimate lifestyle. You're seeing the world. 0:22:34.364 --> 0:22:36.324 I mean, I don't want to dumplay like it was. 0:22:36.484 --> 0:22:38.284 It was really great and it was really fun. You're 0:22:38.444 --> 0:22:41.564 you're seeing the world, you know, traveling from country to 0:22:41.604 --> 0:22:45.004 country or whatever. You get to play a game pretty 0:22:45.044 --> 0:22:46.764 much all day every day if you want to. If 0:22:46.764 --> 0:22:48.324 you wake up and you don't feel like going to work, 0:22:48.324 --> 0:22:50.604 you don't go to work like you you know, you're 0:22:51.004 --> 0:22:54.164 in ultimate control of everything, and at the end of 0:22:54.164 --> 0:22:56.524 the day it's really fun. You're meeting really interesting people 0:22:56.524 --> 0:22:59.564 from all over the world. I did find it hard. 0:22:59.604 --> 0:23:04.204 I guess to kind of stay informed and stay kind 0:23:04.244 --> 0:23:07.124 of doing things that felt like meaningful. I think a 0:23:07.124 --> 0:23:09.244 lot of poker players struggle with that, like finding meeting 0:23:09.484 --> 0:23:11.764 Like when you're just playing a card game all the time, 0:23:11.804 --> 0:23:13.084 it's like kind of what is the point of this? 0:23:13.204 --> 0:23:16.044 You know, When I was doing law, my goal was 0:23:16.084 --> 0:23:19.044 to be a civil rights attorney, but I just you know, 0:23:19.204 --> 0:23:20.764 my brain is built in a certain way, and I 0:23:20.764 --> 0:23:23.604 tried being a lawyer, but it was horribly inefficient and 0:23:23.764 --> 0:23:27.124 just like I just couldn't do it, Like it just 0:23:27.164 --> 0:23:30.404 felt really slow and not like fun. And I think 0:23:30.444 --> 0:23:32.444 poker and trading is the thing that gets me really 0:23:32.444 --> 0:23:34.884 excited in terms of the strategy, Like you're constantly making 0:23:34.964 --> 0:23:38.604 strategic decisions like every second of the day. So for me, 0:23:39.284 --> 0:23:40.924 it was just sort of like an evolution of my 0:23:41.204 --> 0:23:43.324 understanding of self that I that I knew this is 0:23:43.364 --> 0:23:45.684 what like made me happy, and then what do I 0:23:45.724 --> 0:23:48.324 have to do to make meaning for myself in the world. 0:23:48.364 --> 0:23:50.444 And so being in the poker world, it was just 0:23:50.484 --> 0:23:53.444 like hard to kind of be more well rounded, like 0:23:53.564 --> 0:23:55.644 have interests in different places. It was like, you know, 0:23:55.684 --> 0:23:57.924 when you're traveling, there's this weird disoriented thing of like 0:23:57.964 --> 0:24:01.524 being your physical environment kind of dictates like what you're 0:24:01.564 --> 0:24:03.404 thinking about or what you're focusing on. And so for me, 0:24:03.444 --> 0:24:05.964 it's like, now I have a boring routine. I have kids, 0:24:06.084 --> 0:24:08.524 I wake up, I like have my boring commute. I 0:24:08.564 --> 0:24:09.324 like go to the office, you know. 0:24:09.444 --> 0:24:11.324 I mean like I just kind of like understand what 0:24:11.364 --> 0:24:11.764 life is. 0:24:12.364 --> 0:24:14.684 If you have a big trade on, do you enjoy 0:24:14.724 --> 0:24:15.404 the sweat of that? 0:24:16.724 --> 0:24:19.724 What he's asking is, are you still a djen Vanessa? 0:24:19.884 --> 0:24:21.244 Am I still a DGEN? Yeah? 0:24:21.404 --> 0:24:24.084 No, for sure, I'm still a DGEN, much more so 0:24:24.204 --> 0:24:26.804 than anybody else. I'm like, for sure, I like to, 0:24:26.964 --> 0:24:28.924 you know, sweat the outcome of trades and stuff. But 0:24:29.044 --> 0:24:31.564 you're you know, but but much less than poker than I. 0:24:31.644 --> 0:24:33.964 You know, it's not like the most DGEN exciting stuff. 0:24:34.004 --> 0:24:38.084 Okay, so you're playing poker. I can imagine a very 0:24:38.204 --> 0:24:41.804 very particular skills set. I don't know if I want 0:24:41.844 --> 0:24:43.644 to stereot type people. I can imagine a very particular 0:24:43.644 --> 0:24:48.604 type person has like poor social skills and it's very undisciplined, 0:24:48.644 --> 0:24:51.604 right for whom like poker is a maximizing amount of money, 0:24:51.604 --> 0:24:56.204 But for for ninety seven percent of good players, then 0:24:56.524 --> 0:24:59.404 you can probably make more money doing something else if 0:24:59.404 --> 0:25:00.844 you still want to be a DJ, and then you 0:25:00.844 --> 0:25:03.164 can go work for Hedge fund or something. But like, 0:25:03.524 --> 0:25:06.804 I mean, when you shots fired, how did you get 0:25:06.844 --> 0:25:07.484 into this industry? 0:25:07.524 --> 0:25:07.564 That? 0:25:07.564 --> 0:25:10.324 Because I mean you you you quit and literally the 0:25:10.324 --> 0:25:13.044 New York Times wrote about you. That's pretty cool. Yeah, 0:25:13.644 --> 0:25:16.604 did you find Bridgewater or they found you or or 0:25:16.764 --> 0:25:18.604 you found them through friends or how did this relationship 0:25:18.604 --> 0:25:19.044 come about? 0:25:20.324 --> 0:25:20.564 Yeah? 0:25:21.004 --> 0:25:23.964 It was just Galen, like Galen Hall, another really successful 0:25:24.004 --> 0:25:27.124 poker player. Like, I didn't know anything about finance. I 0:25:28.644 --> 0:25:30.804 kind of thought of it as like you know, the 0:25:30.844 --> 0:25:33.404 Wolf of Wall Street kind of situation, you know. 0:25:33.764 --> 0:25:35.964 So Galen was working at. 0:25:35.844 --> 0:25:37.604 Bridgewater and he was like, oh yeah, this place like 0:25:37.644 --> 0:25:39.084 they'll higher you. They have a really good the kind 0:25:39.124 --> 0:25:41.044 of like education program. And so I was just thrilled 0:25:41.044 --> 0:25:43.764 that I had heard about finance and like kind of 0:25:43.804 --> 0:25:45.604 how it was similar to poker. And my mom actually 0:25:45.644 --> 0:25:48.884 had been an options trader when an avid poker player. 0:25:48.964 --> 0:25:49.524 That's amazing. 0:25:49.964 --> 0:25:50.804 What year was that? 0:25:51.524 --> 0:25:52.484 How did that happen? 0:25:54.004 --> 0:25:54.284 Yeah? 0:25:54.324 --> 0:25:58.084 She played poker like basically to put herself through college, 0:25:59.204 --> 0:26:01.964 which I guess was in like seventy three or seventy 0:26:02.004 --> 0:26:07.564 two and then was an option trader like in the nineties. Yeah, 0:26:07.844 --> 0:26:09.324 on the American stocky strain. 0:26:09.604 --> 0:26:12.284 It's pretty crazy. The only woman I think. 0:26:12.244 --> 0:26:14.124 I was gonna say there might m must not have 0:26:14.164 --> 0:26:14.884 been married many. 0:26:14.924 --> 0:26:18.204 It was basically just her and so so I'd heard 0:26:18.204 --> 0:26:19.804 about it, but I but I didn't know much about it, 0:26:19.804 --> 0:26:22.084 and so Galen was like, yeah, they'll they'll teach you 0:26:22.164 --> 0:26:23.684 and whatever. So I was just told someone was like 0:26:23.724 --> 0:26:26.484 willing to give me a job. But yeah, ultimately it wasn't. 0:26:26.524 --> 0:26:28.364 It wasn't like the right fit. And they're like kind 0:26:28.364 --> 0:26:31.004 of more they do like kind of like long term 0:26:31.044 --> 0:26:36.404 investment strategy stuff, and so it felt more like a 0:26:36.404 --> 0:26:37.804 think tank. Like I would try to get people to 0:26:37.804 --> 0:26:39.524 gamble with me on stuff and they were just like no, 0:26:39.724 --> 0:26:41.964 and I'm like, what, like what you know, don't we 0:26:42.004 --> 0:26:44.244 work at a Like I would finally get people to 0:26:44.284 --> 0:26:46.244 gamble with me. They'd owe me like, you know, seven 0:26:46.284 --> 0:26:48.244 dollars and sixty cents because like that's what they were 0:26:48.244 --> 0:26:50.484 comfortable gambling for and they were like or like whatever, 0:26:50.724 --> 0:26:52.644 and they're like, okay, can you pay me? And I'm 0:26:52.684 --> 0:26:54.524 like yeah, like let's just flip until it's like one 0:26:54.604 --> 0:26:57.764 hundred or zero, and you actually liked this story. Literally, 0:26:57.764 --> 0:26:59.644 I'd have debts of like thirteen dollars that I would 0:26:59.724 --> 0:27:01.284 have to pay, and so I'd be like, okay, let's 0:27:01.284 --> 0:27:03.004 just flip, like, let's roll a hundred sid to die 0:27:03.044 --> 0:27:05.284 and you know, I'll take thirteen number or you can 0:27:05.284 --> 0:27:07.404 take thirteen numbers and you know, if you get one 0:27:07.444 --> 0:27:07.924 of them, I'll. 0:27:07.764 --> 0:27:08.444 Give you a hundred bucks. 0:27:08.444 --> 0:27:11.404 And they're like no, I'm just like, they're like, I 0:27:11.444 --> 0:27:14.164 don't campl like, I can't deal with this. So what 0:27:14.284 --> 0:27:19.204 I I went to the bank and I got a 0:27:19.204 --> 0:27:22.884 lot of rolls of pennies and some nickels, and I 0:27:22.964 --> 0:27:25.244 unrolled them all, a lot of them, like one hundred 0:27:25.324 --> 0:27:27.564 rolls of pennies and like one hundred rolls of nickels, 0:27:27.604 --> 0:27:29.284 and I put them in a bag under my desk, 0:27:29.324 --> 0:27:32.404 and anytime someone wanted me to pay them a debt 0:27:32.724 --> 0:27:35.844 and a number that wasn't a round number, I used 0:27:35.844 --> 0:27:38.044 to just sort through my bag of pennies and nickels 0:27:38.084 --> 0:27:38.764 and pay the debt. 0:27:38.804 --> 0:27:42.564 That way is the best. 0:27:42.644 --> 0:27:46.844 Yeah, And when when I left, actually, my old coworkers 0:27:46.844 --> 0:27:49.444 met up at some point, like a few months later, 0:27:49.444 --> 0:27:49.684 and they. 0:27:49.644 --> 0:27:52.164 Were like, Oh, we found this bag of pennies under 0:27:52.204 --> 0:27:53.124 your desk? Did you want that? 0:27:53.604 --> 0:27:53.684 Like? 0:27:53.764 --> 0:27:56.284 No, no, no, So you worked with a bunch of nets, Vanessa, 0:27:56.724 --> 0:27:58.204 is what you're trying? 0:27:59.084 --> 0:28:01.404 I was like, literally, do you guys remember that this? 0:28:01.804 --> 0:28:04.164 But anyway, so it wasn't it wasn't the same kind 0:28:04.164 --> 0:28:06.484 of fit. But luckily that's where I heard about Jane Street, 0:28:06.484 --> 0:28:07.564 which is a much better fit. 0:28:07.684 --> 0:28:13.284 So do you feel like poker has kind of enabled 0:28:13.324 --> 0:28:15.484 you to excel in that kind of environment? Was it 0:28:15.484 --> 0:28:18.684 transferable or were both of these things that you kind 0:28:18.724 --> 0:28:21.124 of carried with you both to poker and now to 0:28:21.684 --> 0:28:24.924 Bridgewater and then and then Jane straight like is it 0:28:24.964 --> 0:28:28.324 what you're bringing to it or did it impart knowledge 0:28:28.324 --> 0:28:29.564 that you're now using as well? 0:28:30.124 --> 0:28:32.724 Oh? I mean, like of course, Like it's a completely 0:28:32.764 --> 0:28:34.604 different sphere, Like there was a ton to learn. There's 0:28:34.604 --> 0:28:36.724 still a ton to learn, like learning all the time. 0:28:36.804 --> 0:28:42.124 It's it's like such a complicated complex like world, but poker. 0:28:42.284 --> 0:28:45.284 I mean, I didn't realize just how much it mattered, 0:28:45.284 --> 0:28:48.604 Like how much whether it's just poker or just general 0:28:48.804 --> 0:28:51.564 strategic thinking, Like I think the way that poker players 0:28:51.604 --> 0:28:54.764 think is the way that traders think like just thinking 0:28:54.764 --> 0:28:57.564 about things and expected values, but also just like thinking 0:28:57.564 --> 0:29:00.444 about the different players in a game and your motivations, 0:29:00.484 --> 0:29:02.084 because if you're trading, someone else is on the other 0:29:02.124 --> 0:29:05.964 side of the trade, and particularly I trade options and options 0:29:05.964 --> 0:29:08.844 are like really complex things where there's like a lot 0:29:08.844 --> 0:29:12.044 of different kinds of risk and different like kind of 0:29:12.444 --> 0:29:15.404 distributions of returns and whatever, and so you really have 0:29:15.444 --> 0:29:18.204 to think through like the different possible situations, the probabilities 0:29:18.204 --> 0:29:22.124 of them, what someone's motivation, the whole concept of average selection. 0:29:22.284 --> 0:29:24.844 Who am I trading against? What is their motivation? It 0:29:24.884 --> 0:29:27.644 really does feel like being in a poker game, and 0:29:27.644 --> 0:29:29.324 and there's the reason, like a lot of you know, 0:29:29.324 --> 0:29:30.884 there's a lot of poker players at the firm that 0:29:30.964 --> 0:29:33.644 are anywhere from casual poker players where there's always poker 0:29:33.684 --> 0:29:36.804 games going. We have poker tables in our like main cafeteria, 0:29:37.524 --> 0:29:39.284 and so there's always a poker game after work. 0:29:39.324 --> 0:29:41.084 And then you know, even at the. 0:29:41.044 --> 0:29:43.204 World Series, a couple of the guys always go out 0:29:43.244 --> 0:29:45.404 and one of them actually I think got like second 0:29:45.484 --> 0:29:47.564 or third, I don't actually remember, and one of the 0:29:47.724 --> 0:29:50.484 one of the events last year. So there's like some 0:29:50.484 --> 0:29:53.204 serious poker players here and it's not you know, it's 0:29:53.244 --> 0:29:55.204 not a coincidence. Like there's a huge amount of like 0:29:55.244 --> 0:29:56.124 crossover skills. 0:29:56.204 --> 0:29:59.684 Do you find it hard to play against coworkers because 0:29:59.724 --> 0:30:01.884 of like the office politics dimension of it. 0:30:04.644 --> 0:30:07.564 Uh no, only office politics. 0:30:07.244 --> 0:30:10.204 And I love how you said that competition. 0:30:10.324 --> 0:30:13.924 No, no, No, it's like it's actually like amazing because 0:30:13.964 --> 0:30:15.484 I think Jane Street is really good at this if 0:30:15.524 --> 0:30:18.764 like it's it's really competitive in the sense of like 0:30:18.844 --> 0:30:21.804 everybody comes from a place of like being having really 0:30:21.804 --> 0:30:24.044 competitive background. Like a lot of a lot of the 0:30:24.044 --> 0:30:26.684 people that get hired are people that have a history 0:30:26.684 --> 0:30:30.404 of playing games or math competitions or or whatever. It 0:30:30.484 --> 0:30:32.724 is like you know a lot of people with like 0:30:32.804 --> 0:30:37.284 really competitive personalities. But Jane Street is a place that 0:30:37.444 --> 0:30:40.044 is very collaborative, like out of all of the different 0:30:41.084 --> 0:30:45.164 you know, training firms or whatever, like just for a 0:30:45.164 --> 0:30:47.404 lot of reasons, Like it's just like a very collaborative, 0:30:47.444 --> 0:30:49.804 like congenial place. So it's sort of like a great 0:30:49.844 --> 0:30:52.364 mix where we're like super competitive with each other at 0:30:52.364 --> 0:30:54.524 the poker table, but just in like a fun way, 0:30:54.724 --> 0:30:58.484 you know, a place where people just really appreciate when 0:30:58.484 --> 0:31:01.564 someone like outplays someone else and just like, oh yeah, props, 0:31:01.564 --> 0:31:03.164 Like that was awesome. Like everyone just wants to outplay 0:31:03.204 --> 0:31:06.124 each other, you know, and and play really well and 0:31:06.204 --> 0:31:08.444 like that's that's the joy of it is is just 0:31:08.484 --> 0:31:10.404 like finding the best place and figuring it out, you know. 0:31:14.164 --> 0:31:18.324 And we'll be right back after this break. 0:31:29.044 --> 0:31:34.044 Is that a GPI award that I spy over your shoulders? Pokers? 0:31:34.084 --> 0:31:35.404 It's a bookend. It's a bookend. 0:31:35.524 --> 0:31:37.804 Yeah, but it is a GPI saying it as a 0:31:37.804 --> 0:31:40.604 book and you're using it. But but don't don't skirt 0:31:40.684 --> 0:31:41.044 the question. 0:31:41.124 --> 0:31:43.284 You do know about prize? It's a bookend, it's. 0:31:44.764 --> 0:31:45.364 I guess it is. 0:31:45.444 --> 0:31:48.484 Yeah, Actually, I just know you'll like this too. I 0:31:48.564 --> 0:31:51.404 just finally cleaned out my garage after four years. Uh 0:31:51.444 --> 0:31:55.204 we am renovating the basement and we moved here four 0:31:55.284 --> 0:31:58.004 years ago. I'm in Montclair, New Jersey, and we realized 0:31:58.044 --> 0:32:03.204 I hadn't really unpacked. So I finally found all of 0:32:03.204 --> 0:32:05.564 my old trophies. This is now sitting in my office. 0:32:06.924 --> 0:32:10.724 It's my old oh Bartush poker turn. This is the 0:32:10.684 --> 0:32:13.644 best biggest tournament I ever won. It's covered in hay. 0:32:14.444 --> 0:32:16.364 This is okay, so you can find some Hey, here 0:32:16.364 --> 0:32:18.164 you go there's like a whole bunch of hay everywhere. 0:32:18.164 --> 0:32:19.044 I don't know if you can see. 0:32:19.284 --> 0:32:21.764 Yeah, because my wife decided that it was a good 0:32:21.804 --> 0:32:24.884 idea to purchase lots of different bales of hay and 0:32:25.004 --> 0:32:26.244 keep them also in our garage. 0:32:26.244 --> 0:32:27.004 So now all of. 0:32:27.084 --> 0:32:29.084 Because I don't know, you have to decorate for fall. 0:32:29.284 --> 0:32:31.564 I don't know, there's like a lapse. She's very into decorating, 0:32:31.564 --> 0:32:35.164 and there's apparently a lapse between Halloween and Christmas that 0:32:35.244 --> 0:32:37.844 involves lots of barrels of hay. But anyway, all of 0:32:37.844 --> 0:32:39.844 my old trophies are now covered in hay. 0:32:41.204 --> 0:32:42.364 And have like lots of cracks. 0:32:42.364 --> 0:32:44.004 So I got to figure out what to do with them, 0:32:44.164 --> 0:32:46.084 maybe like some kind of we My kids were trying 0:32:46.124 --> 0:32:47.084 to use them as weapons. 0:32:47.484 --> 0:32:49.524 So Partush was the biggest tournament you ever won. 0:32:50.164 --> 0:32:51.324 Yeah, and the biggest trophy. 0:32:51.564 --> 0:32:54.844 That's amazing, Vanessa. Were you at the Partouche with the 0:32:54.924 --> 0:32:57.044 cheating scandal or was that not your ear? 0:32:57.124 --> 0:32:59.124 Oh? Yeah, that was that was my year. Yeah, that's 0:32:59.164 --> 0:33:00.924 a good, great memory that you remember that. Well. 0:33:00.964 --> 0:33:03.364 I'm I'm writing a book about cheating right now, so 0:33:03.604 --> 0:33:07.244 oh awesome. So for people who aren't familiar, since you 0:33:07.324 --> 0:33:11.884 were there. This is a great store and involved journalism 0:33:12.004 --> 0:33:14.444 or faux journalism and a lot of things. So, Nest, 0:33:14.444 --> 0:33:15.764 do you want to tell us a little bit about 0:33:15.764 --> 0:33:18.204 your part twish victory and this crazy moment. 0:33:19.404 --> 0:33:19.724 Yeah. 0:33:19.804 --> 0:33:21.964 So, well, from my perspective, I was a triplayer going 0:33:22.004 --> 0:33:24.044 into the final table and it was the delayed final table, 0:33:24.084 --> 0:33:27.244 which was crazy. So we finished the tournament in September 0:33:28.004 --> 0:33:31.084 and played down to the final table and then played 0:33:31.084 --> 0:33:32.644 the final table in November, so we had like two 0:33:32.684 --> 0:33:34.404 months to stew on it. So I'm having like literal 0:33:34.524 --> 0:33:37.084 nightmares that I'm like chip leader my equity. It was 0:33:37.124 --> 0:33:39.004 the biggest turnam I ever played. First prize was almost 0:33:39.044 --> 0:33:42.924 two million, you know, and I was having nightmares that 0:33:42.924 --> 0:33:44.604 I would like bust out ninth. So when I get 0:33:44.604 --> 0:33:47.364 there and they're like, oh, congratulations, everyone's got at least eighth, 0:33:47.364 --> 0:33:49.284 I was like, Okay, cool, I'm gonna win this now, 0:33:49.644 --> 0:33:52.604 you know, Like basically all of my nightmares were no more. 0:33:52.724 --> 0:33:54.684 But but yeah, so when I got there, they were like, yeah, 0:33:54.684 --> 0:33:56.204 you're all guaranteed eighth for like what. 0:33:56.444 --> 0:33:57.124 They're like, oh yeah. 0:33:57.204 --> 0:33:58.964 One of the guys was just like cheating the whole 0:33:58.964 --> 0:34:01.404 time throughout the whole tournament and also on the whole 0:34:01.404 --> 0:34:04.524 poker tour. Yeah, he had these like like journalists I 0:34:04.564 --> 0:34:07.164 guess with this like fake website that had nothing on it. 0:34:07.284 --> 0:34:09.084 I think it was like I don't remember the name 0:34:09.084 --> 0:34:11.524 of this, but he would just have like fake journalists 0:34:11.564 --> 0:34:14.524 stand behind people and like fake report and then just 0:34:14.524 --> 0:34:18.004 like give signs to this guy Ali what was his name. 0:34:18.804 --> 0:34:21.564 His name was Ali Tecantum. 0:34:21.124 --> 0:34:23.084 Guk tech and tagak. There you go. 0:34:23.244 --> 0:34:25.084 Yeah, it's pretty good fucking cheat. 0:34:25.324 --> 0:34:27.404 Yeah, so he would just give him signals on like 0:34:27.404 --> 0:34:28.924 what they had, and he's just like looking over at 0:34:28.924 --> 0:34:29.524 paper soldiers. 0:34:29.564 --> 0:34:30.484 It was so old school. 0:34:30.524 --> 0:34:33.444 There's no devices, there's no like you know, poker's gotten 0:34:33.444 --> 0:34:36.684 a lot more sophisticated, like we've gotten poker cheating solvers now. 0:34:36.724 --> 0:34:37.844 I feel like, you know that are. 0:34:37.724 --> 0:34:40.124 Just they're like, that is not the GTO way to cheat, 0:34:40.124 --> 0:34:42.284 Like the GTO way to cheat with this strategy would 0:34:42.324 --> 0:34:44.844 have at least involved having legitimate poker blog that had 0:34:44.844 --> 0:34:48.564 some words on it. But but yeah, so he was 0:34:48.604 --> 0:34:49.444 finally discovered. 0:34:49.484 --> 0:34:51.684 So you can't trust you can't trust journalists. See. 0:34:52.044 --> 0:34:53.964 Well, it was one of those things where when I 0:34:54.004 --> 0:34:57.004 heard that story, I was like, oh, Wow, like you 0:34:57.084 --> 0:35:00.604 really need to learn how to protect your cards, Like, yeah, 0:35:00.684 --> 0:35:03.364 just you know, it's crazy that cheating. I mean, cheating 0:35:03.364 --> 0:35:06.044 has always been a part of whenever there's money. Even 0:35:06.084 --> 0:35:09.284 when there's no money, there's there's cheating. People cheat on 0:35:09.564 --> 0:35:12.204 trivia nights. But yeah, I just remember that he had 0:35:12.204 --> 0:35:14.524 the fake journalist who would look at people's cards and 0:35:14.964 --> 0:35:19.164 just hand signs, completely old school, and you think about. 0:35:18.924 --> 0:35:21.884 All this, like the press hats and stuff like that probably. 0:35:21.684 --> 0:35:23.244 Had, Yeah, all of these things. 0:35:23.644 --> 0:35:25.164 It went on for like a year and a half 0:35:25.364 --> 0:35:27.524 something crazy like it was. But like the number of 0:35:27.604 --> 0:35:29.604 cheating scales that you've read about and been like, wow, 0:35:29.604 --> 0:35:32.004 if you were just a little less greedy, you could 0:35:32.004 --> 0:35:33.164 have gotten away with this forever. 0:35:33.364 --> 0:35:35.444 Absolutely no, I mean that I think that's the case 0:35:35.484 --> 0:35:37.564 with most of them, whether or not it's poker, that 0:35:37.684 --> 0:35:40.684 if you just cheated a little bit smarter and you know, 0:35:40.764 --> 0:35:44.124 got out a little bit faster, we would not know 0:35:44.164 --> 0:35:46.564 about it. And some of the biggest cheating stories in 0:35:46.644 --> 0:35:49.724 poker they did get out. And so, oh my god, 0:35:49.844 --> 0:35:54.804 you have user for your people's reputation that is more 0:35:54.924 --> 0:35:56.004 or less intact. 0:35:56.844 --> 0:35:58.964 Really, are you gonna uncover some of this in your book. 0:36:00.564 --> 0:36:03.964 I will have to have some allegedlies in there. I will. 0:36:03.964 --> 0:36:05.644 I will tell you that one of the people is 0:36:05.684 --> 0:36:08.524 no longer alive, so you could probably put two and 0:36:08.524 --> 0:36:09.044 two together. 0:36:10.124 --> 0:36:11.844 But yeah, that's my favorite guy. 0:36:12.044 --> 0:36:14.484 Mahy have been from the Southern United States. 0:36:14.844 --> 0:36:23.404 Yeah, Nate's accents, nate'scent. So are you now, you know, 0:36:23.484 --> 0:36:27.324 now that you're kind of settled down, do you how 0:36:27.364 --> 0:36:30.564 do you feel about poker? I'm actually just curious. You know, 0:36:30.604 --> 0:36:32.284 we obviously know it's a big part of your life 0:36:32.324 --> 0:36:36.244 because you have your GPI award in your zoom background, 0:36:36.404 --> 0:36:40.164 and you've got your You're not you've got your part. 0:36:40.364 --> 0:36:42.444 I mean, I've got that World Series Poker carpeting. 0:36:42.484 --> 0:36:46.564 I think, where are your bracelets, Vanessa? But I mean 0:36:46.644 --> 0:36:50.084 it is, it is, actually it is remarkable that and 0:36:50.284 --> 0:36:52.444 you know, there's a numbers game. A lot of things 0:36:52.444 --> 0:36:54.524 have changed in the game since you've left, but a 0:36:54.524 --> 0:36:58.124 lot of things haven't. This year was a record low 0:36:58.244 --> 0:37:01.004 number of women in the w s P main event 0:37:01.644 --> 0:37:04.044 for like, you know, it just it went, it went. 0:37:05.124 --> 0:37:07.044 It was It's just like low enough that it's just. 0:37:07.524 --> 0:37:11.084 It was just yeah, exactly in terms of like the 0:37:11.164 --> 0:37:13.964 last you know when people have been tracking this, there's 0:37:14.004 --> 0:37:17.484 still So when I won my first bracelet this year, 0:37:18.324 --> 0:37:19.044 I was, I think. 0:37:19.004 --> 0:37:20.524 Woman, I don't know, you want to bracelet? 0:37:20.604 --> 0:37:23.604 Ye? What so I was woman number like twenty nine, 0:37:23.644 --> 0:37:25.444 I think it was. I don't remember. It was under 0:37:25.484 --> 0:37:28.284 thirty women who've won open bracelet events since the beginning? 0:37:28.284 --> 0:37:28.844 What did you win? 0:37:28.924 --> 0:37:29.604 How do I know? 0:37:29.644 --> 0:37:32.884 I really don't follow poker all, but congratulations. 0:37:32.124 --> 0:37:35.124 That's OK, thank you. It was that was eighty eight 0:37:35.204 --> 0:37:35.924 crazy eights. 0:37:36.044 --> 0:37:36.644 Oh my god. 0:37:37.764 --> 0:37:39.684 So that that was fun. But it was a you know, 0:37:40.044 --> 0:37:42.844 women's are still not really winning open events. Like so 0:37:43.004 --> 0:37:44.764 if you don't count the women's events and you don't 0:37:44.804 --> 0:37:47.444 count senior, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's still under thirty. Like 0:37:47.484 --> 0:37:48.844 I said, I think I was number twenty nine. 0:37:48.884 --> 0:37:49.084 I don't. 0:37:49.084 --> 0:37:51.404 Actually, I feel embarrassed to be in the presence of 0:37:51.404 --> 0:37:52.404 two bracelet winners. 0:37:52.484 --> 0:37:52.764 I am. 0:37:53.124 --> 0:37:55.484 I fucking guess second a couple of years ago. I mean, 0:37:55.684 --> 0:37:58.164 we're gonna grind this year. They're going to grind schedule 0:37:58.164 --> 0:37:58.644 card this year. 0:37:58.884 --> 0:38:01.924 Yeah, so I'm curious kind of how you know, giving 0:38:01.964 --> 0:38:04.564 your legacy and that you're you're still I mean, if 0:38:04.604 --> 0:38:07.204 I were to say, like, who is the person I 0:38:07.284 --> 0:38:08.764 most look up to in the game, it would be 0:38:08.804 --> 0:38:12.924 you on a because because of the of what you've accomplished, 0:38:12.964 --> 0:38:14.844 and it does it does you know, it means a 0:38:14.884 --> 0:38:17.004 lot like where you came from and you know kind 0:38:17.044 --> 0:38:20.564 of what you've done. And I don't know who's number two, right, 0:38:20.644 --> 0:38:22.884 Like you're kind of in a category of your own. 0:38:23.164 --> 0:38:24.924 So how do you you know, how do you think 0:38:24.964 --> 0:38:28.444 about your your legacy? You're still very much alive and 0:38:28.484 --> 0:38:30.844 still playing, but like how you know, how is that 0:38:30.884 --> 0:38:32.724 a part of your life other than you know, being 0:38:32.724 --> 0:38:34.044 a part of your Zoom background. 0:38:34.444 --> 0:38:34.604 Oh? 0:38:34.804 --> 0:38:38.524 Man, I don't know, it's weird. 0:38:38.564 --> 0:38:41.244 I just never wanted to think that much about that 0:38:41.324 --> 0:38:44.204 kind of stuff, Like, you know, I don't know, it 0:38:44.324 --> 0:38:45.924 just wasn't me. Like I didn't like all that that 0:38:46.644 --> 0:38:49.644 the attention about it and and the pomp and. 0:38:49.684 --> 0:38:50.884 Circumstance of it and all. 0:38:51.204 --> 0:38:53.164 I don't know that that's you know, Look, Kristin Bicknell 0:38:53.204 --> 0:38:56.124 is probably gonna like win a bunch more money like 0:38:56.164 --> 0:38:59.924 this year, or she's gonna overtake that spot, and then 0:38:59.964 --> 0:39:03.284 I'll just be some random husband. You know, I don't 0:39:03.324 --> 0:39:04.204 think that'll be good. 0:39:04.324 --> 0:39:07.244 No, you'll be the You'll be the deuce five into 0:39:07.244 --> 0:39:10.724 ass never Never Never, the random houseband, you know, the 0:39:11.404 --> 0:39:11.804 go ahead. 0:39:11.884 --> 0:39:13.924 Yeah, Oh, I was just gonna say, I do feel 0:39:13.924 --> 0:39:15.604 like I'm in a spot where, like for a few years, 0:39:15.604 --> 0:39:17.204 I felt like I want nothing to do with this game, 0:39:17.244 --> 0:39:19.644 and I find myself like coming around like realite, remembering 0:39:19.644 --> 0:39:21.564 why I love the game. Like, you know, I really 0:39:21.564 --> 0:39:24.164 had like a love hate relationship followed by like a 0:39:24.204 --> 0:39:26.524 hate hate relationship with it towards the end, Like you know, 0:39:26.564 --> 0:39:28.724 we would hang out and you'd be like my friends 0:39:28.804 --> 0:39:30.204 at the end of my burger, hear my friends be like, 0:39:30.244 --> 0:39:31.684 so we're gonna go play the tournament. I'm like, now, 0:39:32.004 --> 0:39:33.884 I'll see it later, let me know any bus you know. 0:39:34.404 --> 0:39:37.524 But but now I feel like whenever I'm playing, I'm 0:39:37.524 --> 0:39:40.884 having fun again, and I don't feel like burdened by 0:39:40.924 --> 0:39:43.484 all of the different stuff that came that came with 0:39:43.564 --> 0:39:47.044 the I don't know, so so I enjoy playing again. 0:39:47.084 --> 0:39:50.124 If you're at a random dinner party, you don't know 0:39:50.164 --> 0:39:53.524 somebody is super well, right, was it more awkward to 0:39:53.524 --> 0:39:55.404 introduce yourself as a poker player or as a hedge 0:39:55.404 --> 0:39:56.684 fund employee? 0:39:57.604 --> 0:39:57.924 Rhenda. 0:39:58.004 --> 0:40:00.924 Actually, my wife has this funny joke because I used 0:40:00.924 --> 0:40:03.524 to go around, you know, and people would talk about 0:40:03.524 --> 0:40:04.724 it all the time, and I was used to getting 0:40:04.724 --> 0:40:06.884 all this attention and stuff, so I'd just be like, oh, like, 0:40:06.964 --> 0:40:09.564 you know whatever, I play poker, you know, and I 0:40:09.604 --> 0:40:12.044 would try to try to change the subject. And now 0:40:12.084 --> 0:40:13.844 I like go out to people and I'm like, they're like, 0:40:13.844 --> 0:40:16.244 what are you doing. I'm like, I'm in I'm a trader, 0:40:16.444 --> 0:40:18.364 like in finance, and they just like look around. But 0:40:18.364 --> 0:40:21.204 I used to be a poker player so bored by 0:40:21.204 --> 0:40:23.324 the time I finish the sentence, and I'm like, no, no, no, 0:40:23.484 --> 0:40:27.604 I swear to god, I'm a little more interesting. So 0:40:27.644 --> 0:40:29.204 the grass is always greener, I guess. 0:40:29.444 --> 0:40:31.844 So so what's next for you? What does the future hold 0:40:31.884 --> 0:40:33.524 for Vanessa? 0:40:33.964 --> 0:40:36.164 I don't know what is I mean, who knows really? 0:40:36.644 --> 0:40:38.884 I mean, I love my job, so hopefully I'll do 0:40:38.884 --> 0:40:41.004 that for a little while at least. 0:40:41.364 --> 0:40:43.564 And kind of play it by year. 0:40:43.604 --> 0:40:49.164 Honestly, I don't see myself like reinventing myself again, but 0:40:49.164 --> 0:40:53.124 but I think some combination of trading poker hobbies, spend 0:40:53.124 --> 0:40:55.404 time with the kids. Like, you know, my kids are 0:40:55.484 --> 0:40:58.044 really fun age they're almost five and almost. 0:40:58.164 --> 0:40:59.804 Time time to start them playing poker. 0:41:00.204 --> 0:41:03.404 Yeah, I know, No, it really is my older one. 0:41:03.444 --> 0:41:06.724 Felix's friend is really into poker, and so I keep 0:41:06.764 --> 0:41:08.364 trying to be like, let's go over to Clark's house 0:41:08.364 --> 0:41:12.764 and like, let's go play poker. But yeah, so some 0:41:12.884 --> 0:41:16.404 combination of that stuff. Like I think probably my guess 0:41:16.444 --> 0:41:19.764 is like when I'm retired or something and maybe who knows, 0:41:19.764 --> 0:41:22.964 ten years or ten fifteen years, like just poker much 0:41:23.004 --> 0:41:25.084 more recreationally. You know, I'll have to get you guys 0:41:25.084 --> 0:41:26.884 to like start a regular home game. 0:41:27.604 --> 0:41:30.964 That will be fun. Well, We'll make the hardest, hardest 0:41:30.964 --> 0:41:31.604 home game. 0:41:31.444 --> 0:41:35.644 In the senior poker It will be fun. 0:41:35.684 --> 0:41:39.684 Well, Vanessa, this has been such an absolute pleasure. I 0:41:39.724 --> 0:41:42.484 am so glad that Eric introduced us and that I 0:41:42.524 --> 0:41:45.284 got to meet you, and I don't know, you know, 0:41:45.564 --> 0:41:48.284 I think you have made my life richer and I 0:41:48.324 --> 0:41:50.364 hope that all of our listeners will have learned something 0:41:50.404 --> 0:41:52.004 from listening to you today. 0:41:52.124 --> 0:41:54.324 Thank you well, Thank you guys so much for thank 0:41:54.324 --> 0:41:54.644 you so much. 0:41:55.004 --> 0:42:07.804 We appreciate you spending this time with us. 0:42:08.244 --> 0:42:10.044 Let us know what you think of the sho reach 0:42:10.084 --> 0:42:13.844 out to us at Risky Business at Pushkin dot FM 0:42:14.004 --> 0:42:16.964 Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova and. 0:42:17.044 --> 0:42:19.964 By me Nate Silver. The show was a Cool production 0:42:20.004 --> 0:42:23.684 of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced by 0:42:23.684 --> 0:42:28.204 Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia, Jean 0:42:28.284 --> 0:42:31.364 Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our executive 0:42:31.364 --> 0:42:34.764 producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Brugerer. 0:42:35.324 --> 0:42:37.564 If you like the show, please rate and review us 0:42:37.564 --> 0:42:40.204 so other people can find us too, But once again, 0:42:40.364 --> 0:42:42.164 only if you like us. We don't want those bad 0:42:42.204 --> 0:42:44.364 reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.