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Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, risky business listeners.

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Speaker 2: As you listen this episode, we're probably still recovering from

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Speaker 2: New Year's Eve or in a crowded airport somewhere. So

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Speaker 2: today we're bringing you one of our favorite interviews in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five to help bring in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is an interview with one of our

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Speaker 3: favorite poker players and favorite people in the poker world.

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Speaker 3: Please enjoy. Today on the show, we have a very

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Speaker 3: special guest, Vanessa Seltst. Vanessa and I first met when

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Speaker 3: we were both Poker Stars Team pros. I was just

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Speaker 3: starting out playing poker and Vanessa was just getting the

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Speaker 3: hell out of there. And Vanessa remains one of the

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Speaker 3: most impressive people I have ever met in or out

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Speaker 3: of poker. Yale Undergrad, Yale Law School. Only female poker

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Speaker 3: player ever to have reached number one on the GPI

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Speaker 3: that's Global Poker Index rankings overall, so both men and

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Speaker 3: women like just number one, period, but only female to

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Speaker 3: have ever done that. Over eleven million in earnings, three

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Speaker 3: World Series of Poker bracelets, and then left it all behind,

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Speaker 3: left that glamorous life behind to join Bridgewater Associates and

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Speaker 3: go into the Hedge Fund World, after which she went

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Speaker 3: to Jane Street Capital, which is where we find her today.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the show, Vanessa.

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Speaker 4: Thanks Maria, thank you for that intro. Definitely more than

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Speaker 4: I deserve, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

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Speaker 3: And Nate, how long have you known Vanessa?

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Speaker 2: I think I knew her kind of about the time,

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Speaker 2: maybe when she quit. Maybe I reached out and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you've kind of left poke for other things.

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Speaker 2: I know, since it was stupid cold email, I think

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Speaker 2: we wound up becoming friends and we have a lot

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Speaker 2: in common, and so I'm a huge admirer of Vanessa

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 5: That's not right at all, Nate.

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Speaker 4: We met at a really awkward well, my wife was joking,

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Speaker 4: was like a really awkward date.

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Speaker 5: You don't remember this, And at Aussie Millions and like.

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Speaker 2: Oh millions, okay, when are we.

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Speaker 4: Twelve or twenty fourteen? I don't even know what year

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Speaker 4: it was, but like I don't know. The people at

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Speaker 4: Austin Millions were like, Nate Silver wants to meet you.

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, I want to meet him, and

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Speaker 4: then we went on like like at dinner. But it

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Speaker 4: was just like super awkward and funny, but like, it

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Speaker 4: was a good time.

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Speaker 2: I super.

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Speaker 4: And then, uh so that was when we first hung out,

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Speaker 4: but then we didn't really start hanging out till a

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Speaker 4: few years later, so I just didn't know. That was

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Speaker 4: a very special one of my awkwardest states that I've

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Speaker 4: ever had, so I guess it was more meaningfully awkward

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Speaker 4: to me, but that's okay, it was it was a

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Speaker 4: good time.

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Speaker 3: So I actually I remember the first time I met

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Speaker 3: you was in Monte Carlo. It was my first ever

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Speaker 3: Poker Stars stop and it was my first ever major,

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Speaker 3: kind of major tournament period. I knew, you know, I

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Speaker 3: had known nothing about poker, and kind of there I was,

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Speaker 3: and Eric Sidell introduced us. Eric Sidell, obviously you know

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Speaker 3: who he is, and listeners of the show, no, he is,

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Speaker 3: you know, one of the greatest players of all time,

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Speaker 3: became my coach and he was like, I want you

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Speaker 3: to meet Vanessa Selts. She's really really impressive. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, I don't want to meet Vanessa. She's scarce me.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's funny.

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Speaker 3: And then and then we met and at first I

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Speaker 3: was like, I don't think she likes me, and Eric's like, no, no,

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Speaker 3: she likes you, and then we became friends and I

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Speaker 3: realized that you were actually pretty amazing.

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Speaker 4: Well thanks, Yeah, it was great, great to meet the

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Speaker 4: beginning of a great friendship. You know, it is funny

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Speaker 4: that you say that, because there is this thing where

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Speaker 4: there's this like, you know, not to get to like

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Speaker 4: whatever serious about kind of a lighthearted anecdote, and it's like,

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Speaker 4: there really is this thing where you're on TV and

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Speaker 4: you're or you're just playing poker in general, not even

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Speaker 4: on TV, where you know, you're like you have your

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Speaker 4: game face, you're like in the zone, and I get

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Speaker 4: really intense when I'm playing and I'm like really concentrating,

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Speaker 4: and I'm also often like playing pretty aggressive. So there's

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Speaker 4: this like weird like crossover between your poker style and

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Speaker 4: your personality, right, and so I can come across it's

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Speaker 4: like really intense, and I get really intense sometimes, like

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Speaker 4: I'm really in the moment, and I think sometimes it

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Speaker 4: would just be like really intense and people will be like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, who is this person?

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Speaker 2: But you're you're very self I mean you're very self possessed.

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Speaker 2: And I never want to make assumptions about someone's inner

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Speaker 2: confidence level versus how they project outwardly? But did you

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Speaker 2: feel like it was an advantage to be on TV?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Like, was it an advantage that I got to be

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Speaker 4: on TV playing poker?

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Speaker 5: Like? Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: Do you feel I guess do you feel like you

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Speaker 2: played better on TV? Relative? You know, maybe everyone plays

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Speaker 2: worse because there's more external factors to deal with. But

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Speaker 2: did you like if you are told I'm at whatever

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Speaker 2: day of the World Series main event, right you're at

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Speaker 2: the future table? Is are you happy about that or not?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Man, that's a complicated question. That's a good Question's a

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Speaker 4: complicated question because I didn't actually like the.

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Speaker 5: Act of like being on TV.

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Speaker 4: If you will it just like I definitely added advantage

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Speaker 4: over my competitors that are random World Series tournament where

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Speaker 4: I've been on that stage a million times and they haven't,

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Speaker 4: and I'm gonna make better decisions and stuff. But I

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Speaker 4: just didn't like it on like a visceral level. But

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Speaker 4: being on TV was actually a huge advantage for me.

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Speaker 4: I kind of like utilized that. Basically. What I mean

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Speaker 4: to say is like I got a reputation the first

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Speaker 4: time I was ever on TV.

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Speaker 5: I made this like really.

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Speaker 4: Crazy bluff I four bet all in with you with

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Speaker 4: two five suited. It was a thing that happens now

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Speaker 4: occasionally is still considered a reckless play, but at the

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Speaker 4: time it was two thousand and six and no one

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Speaker 4: had ever seen anyone do that or like had any idea,

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean. You re raised with like

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Speaker 4: pocket aces, maybe as king if you were feeling like fluffy,

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Speaker 4: you know at the time. And so when that happened,

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Speaker 4: I got this reputation as being like the craziest person

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Speaker 4: in the world, you know, in poker.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, you managed to run into aces

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Speaker 3: in that hand.

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Speaker 4: I did manage to run to aces, and I don't

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Speaker 4: know if that was a coincidence. Having just explained that

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Speaker 4: most people at three bet usually had aces, So the

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Speaker 4: point just being like it was this crazy play, and

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Speaker 4: everybody kind of took notice, you know, They're like, I

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Speaker 4: don't look like your typical poker player. It wasn't playing

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Speaker 4: like your typical poker player, Like who is this person?

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Speaker 4: And I think that stuck out in people's mind so

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Speaker 4: much that I just instantly got this reputation for being

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Speaker 4: this like crazy, crazy player, to the point where I

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Speaker 4: would play games and I you know, I would end

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Speaker 4: up in like a thousand big blind pots, meaning for

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Speaker 4: the average viewer, were meaning pods that were like way

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Speaker 4: bigger than your average pot, like just a giant, giant,

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Speaker 4: giant pot. And I would like go all in on

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Speaker 4: the river, and I would get called by like Ace High,

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Speaker 4: and You're just like, how do I end up in

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Speaker 4: a situation where there's like a thousand big blinds in

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Speaker 4: the middle and I'm being called by A And so,

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Speaker 4: anyway to get back to the original point of what

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Speaker 4: I was saying, like I was just as crazy player.

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Speaker 5: I was never gonna shake that image.

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Speaker 4: And so it's honestly part of what led me to

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Speaker 4: retire from poker, because it was pretty boring. I like

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Speaker 4: really just couldn't bluff nearly as much as your average person.

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Speaker 4: Like every story was like so I knew they had

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Speaker 4: third pair, so I just gave up, or like, you know,

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Speaker 4: or I decided I was either gonna put in you know,

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Speaker 4: my entire stack or give up. And so what I

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Speaker 4: ended up doing was realizing I was like, Okay, I

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Speaker 4: literally I get the most action of any player ever,

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Speaker 4: so I just have to play tight. This is the

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Speaker 4: most profitable strategy by far. So whenever I went on TV.

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Speaker 4: If there was ever a close decision between like making

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Speaker 4: aggressive action like bluff or rays or just like folder call,

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Speaker 4: I always took the aggressive action. And sometimes even when

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Speaker 4: it wasn't a close decision, you know, like when I,

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Speaker 4: you know, five bet shove with Jackson Suitor whoever. I

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Speaker 4: wasn't trying to light money on fire, but it was

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Speaker 4: this really weird real thing where it was like I

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Speaker 4: would give up a little bit of equity or a

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Speaker 4: lot of equity sometimes to just kind of maintain this

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Speaker 4: crazy image because you know, and I can say this

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Speaker 4: now because I don't play poker anymore, but it was

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Speaker 4: like a decade of me just like playing I would say,

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Speaker 4: I mean, postlop I was pretty aggressive, but like preflop

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Speaker 4: I was probably tighter than like ninety percent of the

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Speaker 4: table honestly, because I couldn't never shake that image anyway.

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Speaker 4: So I was just like, let me use these last

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Speaker 4: like TV time as a way to kind of keep

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Speaker 4: up my reputation, and people just believe what they see on.

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Speaker 5: TV, and that was just the most profitable way to play.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think you're raising a really interesting point,

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Speaker 3: which is that you know, when you're talking about you know,

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Speaker 3: we we love poker on this show, not just because

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Speaker 3: we all play poker, but because it's such a great

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Speaker 3: way of looking at decision making. And I think you

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Speaker 3: you're raising a really important point, which is that no

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Speaker 3: decision is made in a vacuum.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: I have a very different reputation from yours, but you know,

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Speaker 3: I've been a bounty in big events and I hate

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Speaker 3: it because you can't bluff, right. It's kind of the

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Speaker 3: same thing.

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Speaker 2: Funny thing. We're like, we'll talk up. So you've said,

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Speaker 2: I think a couple of times, Maria, we're like, okay,

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Speaker 2: when you make a big shove or a big bet

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Speaker 2: on the river and an opponent tanks, and if you're

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Speaker 2: not a poker fan, that means they're waiting, you know,

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Speaker 2: at least half a minute to several minutes to make

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Speaker 2: a decision. Right. In my experience, when they tank against me,

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Speaker 2: they fold two thirds of the time, right, And you

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Speaker 2: said it's the opposite for me.

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Speaker 3: They call right for me. The longer they tank, the

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Speaker 3: more I'm like, okay, motherfucker, just call already, right, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, just stop, take me out of my misery hand.

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Speaker 3: And it is, you know, it is so incredibly. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's I think that's one of the interesting things about poker,

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Speaker 3: and I'm curious, you know how it how you see

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Speaker 3: it both in poker and outside of poker, kind of

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Speaker 3: that added layer to it, right, that there is it's

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Speaker 3: not just the math, right, that every single risk assessment,

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Speaker 3: every single decision is so dependent on the player, on

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Speaker 3: the situation, on the dynamics, on all of those things.

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Speaker 3: The math is there, right, the math, The math matters.

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Speaker 3: But but but there's so much more going on.

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Speaker 5: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: And I think your point about like the longer it

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Speaker 4: takes that being the key point of vergence is like

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Speaker 4: a really a really great perception because I think that

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Speaker 4: is like we have all these kind of emotional biases,

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Speaker 4: and you know, like if you usually your brain is

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Speaker 4: kind of leading the charge for the first like beginning

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Speaker 4: of your decision making, right, and then eventually it's like

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Speaker 4: the emotional the monkey brain or whatever it takes over.

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Speaker 4: And that's what I used to say about, you know,

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Speaker 4: to go back to that story about how people would

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Speaker 4: call me with these crazy, crazy hands, and it's like

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Speaker 4: there were hands where the only way to correct call

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Speaker 4: if I'm like bluffing with a part of my range,

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Speaker 4: Like we're in spots, you're supposed to bluff like fifteen percent.

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Speaker 4: They would have to have assumed I was bluffing like

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Speaker 4: eighty percent to make the call. And it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: you see a person who's had like very good poker results.

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Speaker 4: Could I be like the one point oh one percent

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Speaker 4: luckiest person and just a terrible poker player. I guess

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Speaker 4: it's possible, although like from a Baysian perspective, like probably,

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Speaker 4: like if the other priors that like you're wrong about

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Speaker 4: my range, like probably that's be a stronger prior, but

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Speaker 4: like hey, never mind, So you know, people would make

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Speaker 4: these calls where I'm like, Okay, the only way that

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Speaker 4: this call could be correct is if I'm just a

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Speaker 4: terrible player and getting lucky all the time. Like there's

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Speaker 4: no way that I could be a successful player and

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Speaker 4: be bluffing the frequency that it needs to be. But

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Speaker 4: it didn't matter, Like it was just like I've seen

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Speaker 4: you on TV. I call you know what I mean,

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Speaker 4: or like I'm not going to be bluffed by you.

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to be bullied by you. And it's

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Speaker 4: truly incredible because if you really just thought about it

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Speaker 4: from a logical decision making, like rational perspective, it would

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Speaker 4: just be an absurd way to play against anyone.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious. So you think when people take longer

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Speaker 2: to make a decision that they get more emotional because

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Speaker 2: people would say, well, I'm going through all the all

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Speaker 2: the different combinations and thinking through things carefully. You think

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Speaker 2: that like actually kind of like.

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Speaker 3: I think mostly there, yeah, a few people are thinking

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Speaker 3: through the combinations.

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Speaker 5: But even if you're thinking.

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Speaker 4: Through the combinations, I think, like, even in a really

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Speaker 4: complicated way, it takes you like max thirty seconds to

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Speaker 4: get like ninety percent of the way there. Like, I

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Speaker 4: just think that time is allowing so much more emotional

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Speaker 4: stuff to creep in that it's just like the ratio

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Speaker 4: of like math to emotion is just like definitely going

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Speaker 4: down over time.

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Speaker 3: Totally agree.

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Speaker 2: If you so you were kind of playing in the

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Speaker 2: era before solvers became quite so ubiquitous, if.

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Speaker 3: I don't think they existed at the beginning when.

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Speaker 5: I've literally never used a solver before.

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Speaker 2: So, and a solver, if you're not aware at home,

270
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Speaker 2: is a product that literally solves the Nash equilibrium for

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Speaker 2: a poker.

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Speaker 3: Literally since it doesn't actually exist.

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Speaker 2: But yes, wait, what do you mean? Well, there's because

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Speaker 2: you abrium Truther.

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Speaker 3: No, but because poker is an unsolved game, it approximates

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Speaker 3: a solution.

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Speaker 5: But that's true, it does break down.

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Speaker 4: It's wow, wow, sorry, that is true technically. Actually, you know,

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Speaker 4: I feel like when you need that means literally Truther.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, would you how would you play differently today?

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Speaker 2: Do you think you'd try to be more quote unquote

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Speaker 2: GTO driven or even or less so or this or

283
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Speaker 2: the same?

284
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Speaker 5: That's a great question.

285
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Speaker 4: And so my goal is just to make the most money, right,

286
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Speaker 4: It's not to like play in a way that makes

287
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Speaker 4: Jane Street look more like a reasonable place and not

288
00:13:21,484 --> 00:13:25,404
Speaker 4: make crazy bluffs. Right. So okay, just under that premise,

289
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Speaker 4: I would say, I think I mean so in my career,

290
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Speaker 4: I'm a trader, like poker player, trader whatever it is,

291
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Speaker 4: Like you think about where does your edge come from?

292
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Speaker 4: And it's certainly for me not in playing GTO better

293
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Speaker 4: than anybody else at this point, Like I've literally never

294
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Speaker 4: used to solver, I've never studied it. I'm also very

295
00:13:47,804 --> 00:13:51,124
Speaker 4: unpracticed from the game, and so I don't even remember

296
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Speaker 4: like what the lines I'm supposed to take in various spots.

297
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Speaker 4: Are like I used to come close enough to what

298
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Speaker 4: the solvers would say if I had used them.

299
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Speaker 5: It was actually like pretty cool.

300
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Speaker 4: I would ask my friends, and I'd be like, I

301
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Speaker 4: kind of got there, you know, just from understanding the

302
00:14:01,724 --> 00:14:05,204
Speaker 4: theoretical underpinnings of the game. And I'm pretty far from

303
00:14:05,204 --> 00:14:07,484
Speaker 4: that because I really play maybe once or twice a

304
00:14:07,604 --> 00:14:10,124
Speaker 4: year at this point for the last most decades, so

305
00:14:11,364 --> 00:14:14,364
Speaker 4: you know, I don't have to play less GGO. My

306
00:14:14,444 --> 00:14:16,644
Speaker 4: strategy back then was to put people, you know, people

307
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Speaker 4: that were trying to play gto that I thought were

308
00:14:18,444 --> 00:14:21,724
Speaker 4: just kind of like memorizing and like there was there's

309
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Speaker 4: this class of poker players that was like successful because

310
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Speaker 4: they were good at memorizing things and not not that

311
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Speaker 4: great at thinking through things. And so I was like, Okay,

312
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Speaker 4: let me sacrifice a little bit of EV on an

313
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Speaker 4: early part of the hand in order to get them

314
00:14:35,204 --> 00:14:37,524
Speaker 4: into a spot they're very unused to, uncomfortable with, and

315
00:14:37,564 --> 00:14:39,524
Speaker 4: just outreason them in a spot where the pot is

316
00:14:39,604 --> 00:14:42,884
Speaker 4: much bigger. And I would just do that repeatedly, and

317
00:14:42,964 --> 00:14:46,004
Speaker 4: kind of through doing that, I would you know, kind

318
00:14:46,004 --> 00:14:49,044
Speaker 4: of figure out where the population where most players were

319
00:14:49,044 --> 00:14:52,884
Speaker 4: making the most mistakes, and you know, and so I

320
00:14:52,884 --> 00:14:55,084
Speaker 4: think I would just do that, but even more because

321
00:14:55,884 --> 00:14:58,044
Speaker 4: I think my edge there is probably still similar to

322
00:14:58,044 --> 00:14:59,924
Speaker 4: what it is now. You know, it would take me

323
00:14:59,924 --> 00:15:01,924
Speaker 4: a while. I probably wouldn't be winning at first doing that,

324
00:15:02,004 --> 00:15:04,724
Speaker 4: because I think part of the reason that was such

325
00:15:04,724 --> 00:15:07,764
Speaker 4: a successful strategy for me was like I would just

326
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Speaker 4: see the same thing over and over. I would be like,

327
00:15:10,604 --> 00:15:12,684
Speaker 4: you know, I don't know, not to make it too pokery,

328
00:15:12,684 --> 00:15:14,404
Speaker 4: but I'd be like, oh, I check the turn in

329
00:15:14,444 --> 00:15:16,044
Speaker 4: a spot that no one would and then I would

330
00:15:16,084 --> 00:15:18,604
Speaker 4: like raise small and then you know whatever, like some

331
00:15:18,684 --> 00:15:20,484
Speaker 4: weird line that no one dates. But I would take

332
00:15:20,484 --> 00:15:22,524
Speaker 4: it a lot, And so I would see how people

333
00:15:22,564 --> 00:15:25,684
Speaker 4: would react over and over again. But I think, like

334
00:15:25,724 --> 00:15:28,204
Speaker 4: whenever you're making any decision, and I think this applies

335
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Speaker 4: to trading way even more than poker, it's just like

336
00:15:30,884 --> 00:15:34,604
Speaker 4: thinking through really really carefully, like where does your edge

337
00:15:34,644 --> 00:15:36,564
Speaker 4: come from? Where does my edge not come from? Where

338
00:15:36,604 --> 00:15:39,164
Speaker 4: am I getting out played? And so that would have

339
00:15:39,244 --> 00:15:39,924
Speaker 4: to be the answers.

340
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Speaker 2: No, I would much rather play against like a gto

341
00:15:45,084 --> 00:15:47,804
Speaker 2: perfect player than like Vanessa.

342
00:15:48,004 --> 00:15:50,324
Speaker 3: I think it's such a smart strategy both in poke

343
00:15:50,364 --> 00:15:53,644
Speaker 3: around in life, to put people in parts of the

344
00:15:53,684 --> 00:15:56,684
Speaker 3: game tree where they're not as familiar, right, get them

345
00:15:56,764 --> 00:15:59,324
Speaker 3: out of their comfort zone. And I've been on the

346
00:15:59,364 --> 00:16:01,444
Speaker 3: receiving end of that when I was just starting out.

347
00:16:01,484 --> 00:16:03,604
Speaker 3: There are some people who are very exploitive players. I

348
00:16:03,644 --> 00:16:06,084
Speaker 3: still remember a hand I played against someone, you know,

349
00:16:06,204 --> 00:16:10,004
Speaker 3: Vanessa Joe Chong, and he defended the blinds. I was

350
00:16:10,044 --> 00:16:12,484
Speaker 3: the pre flop raiser. He checked, I bet, and then

351
00:16:12,524 --> 00:16:15,644
Speaker 3: he led the turn and I was already planning to

352
00:16:16,084 --> 00:16:18,524
Speaker 3: bet that turn. I was. It was a perfect barrel cart,

353
00:16:18,564 --> 00:16:21,164
Speaker 3: and he led it. I was like, what the hell

354
00:16:21,764 --> 00:16:21,964
Speaker 3: are you?

355
00:16:22,044 --> 00:16:22,764
Speaker 5: What are you doing?

356
00:16:23,324 --> 00:16:26,684
Speaker 3: And it really I messed up. I ended up busting

357
00:16:26,724 --> 00:16:27,724
Speaker 3: the tournament on that hand.

358
00:16:28,564 --> 00:16:30,404
Speaker 4: And he's probably done that a bunch of times, and

359
00:16:30,484 --> 00:16:32,964
Speaker 4: now he kind of understands how people in their first

360
00:16:32,964 --> 00:16:35,964
Speaker 4: time reacting to that react and you know, the mistakes

361
00:16:35,964 --> 00:16:36,924
Speaker 4: wind up being way bigger.

362
00:16:37,004 --> 00:16:38,204
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he's making.

363
00:16:38,004 --> 00:16:38,804
Speaker 5: A conscious decision.

364
00:16:38,884 --> 00:16:39,004
Speaker 4: You know.

365
00:16:39,044 --> 00:16:39,884
Speaker 5: It's really interesting.

366
00:16:40,044 --> 00:16:41,884
Speaker 4: One thing I have heard that Once again, I don't

367
00:16:41,884 --> 00:16:43,884
Speaker 4: know anything about this, so if i'm I might be

368
00:16:43,884 --> 00:16:45,804
Speaker 4: speaking on my ass, But I think you can like

369
00:16:45,844 --> 00:16:49,644
Speaker 4: do things like node lock. So if you make some

370
00:16:50,044 --> 00:16:53,044
Speaker 4: assumptions about you know, the way or player will react

371
00:16:53,684 --> 00:16:56,684
Speaker 4: in a certain spot. You can like, you know, that's

372
00:16:56,684 --> 00:16:58,484
Speaker 4: different than GTO. I think you can node luck and

373
00:16:58,524 --> 00:17:00,124
Speaker 4: then you can like kind of go back and say, okay,

374
00:17:00,164 --> 00:17:04,004
Speaker 4: like conditional on them reacting a certain way, what is

375
00:17:04,044 --> 00:17:06,244
Speaker 4: my GTO play and like that's what GGO is about.

376
00:17:06,284 --> 00:17:08,444
Speaker 4: It's not or that's what like just I guess solid

377
00:17:08,444 --> 00:17:10,964
Speaker 4: strategy and anything is. It's not like supposed to be

378
00:17:11,004 --> 00:17:13,444
Speaker 4: this rigid thing. It's supposed to be a way to say, okay,

379
00:17:13,724 --> 00:17:17,044
Speaker 4: conditional on these assumptions I'm making about the world, what

380
00:17:17,204 --> 00:17:19,444
Speaker 4: is the best course of action? The problem is that

381
00:17:19,644 --> 00:17:23,164
Speaker 4: gdo pure GTO. The assumption that it's relying on is

382
00:17:23,164 --> 00:17:26,724
Speaker 4: that everybody else is going to play perfectly. And then

383
00:17:26,764 --> 00:17:29,004
Speaker 4: if you condition on different assumptions, it's going to tell

384
00:17:29,044 --> 00:17:30,164
Speaker 4: you like different things.

385
00:17:30,364 --> 00:17:31,524
Speaker 5: And so that's pretty cool.

386
00:17:35,804 --> 00:17:48,924
Speaker 3: And we'll be back right after this. You have a

387
00:17:49,004 --> 00:17:53,484
Speaker 3: unique background for people who went into the world of poker,

388
00:17:54,004 --> 00:17:56,084
Speaker 3: and I mean, I think something that unites a lot

389
00:17:56,124 --> 00:17:59,324
Speaker 3: of what you've done is kind of the competitive edge

390
00:17:59,364 --> 00:18:02,124
Speaker 3: to it, the love of games. But you went to

391
00:18:02,204 --> 00:18:05,124
Speaker 3: undergrad you studied political science, right, and then you played

392
00:18:05,164 --> 00:18:09,364
Speaker 3: poker after that, but then even though you were ridiculously successful,

393
00:18:09,764 --> 00:18:13,444
Speaker 3: you didn't go pro. You went to law school. And

394
00:18:13,644 --> 00:18:16,724
Speaker 3: only then after law school did you did you go

395
00:18:16,764 --> 00:18:20,444
Speaker 3: into professional poker. Can you talk us through that and

396
00:18:20,484 --> 00:18:24,044
Speaker 3: how kind of how that thinking went and kind of

397
00:18:24,084 --> 00:18:27,604
Speaker 3: what what the strand, whether the strand that I have

398
00:18:27,764 --> 00:18:29,764
Speaker 3: picked out, kind of the competition and kind of the

399
00:18:29,804 --> 00:18:32,284
Speaker 3: game aspect of it is correct or not? You know,

400
00:18:32,324 --> 00:18:33,404
Speaker 3: how did that all work out?

401
00:18:33,444 --> 00:18:34,884
Speaker 5: It's not that deep for me.

402
00:18:35,004 --> 00:18:37,884
Speaker 4: It was mostly me trying to convince myself I'm not

403
00:18:37,884 --> 00:18:43,884
Speaker 4: a degenerate, when in fact I am a degenerate. So yeah,

404
00:18:43,964 --> 00:18:46,724
Speaker 4: that was I mean, honestly, it was a lot of like, oh,

405
00:18:46,804 --> 00:18:48,684
Speaker 4: this isn't actually what I'm doing for a career, right,

406
00:18:48,724 --> 00:18:52,004
Speaker 4: Like that's not a real career, and so it was

407
00:18:52,084 --> 00:18:53,684
Speaker 4: much more like a hobby. And honestly, it kind of

408
00:18:53,684 --> 00:18:54,844
Speaker 4: always was a hobby for me.

409
00:18:55,204 --> 00:18:56,204
Speaker 3: When did you start playing?

410
00:18:57,204 --> 00:18:59,644
Speaker 4: And like, well, I mean I started playing in high school,

411
00:18:59,684 --> 00:19:02,604
Speaker 4: like when we watched rounders. Oh, my friends and I

412
00:19:02,644 --> 00:19:07,124
Speaker 4: love to play. Yeah, old school and so yeah, my

413
00:19:07,164 --> 00:19:08,764
Speaker 4: friends and I used to play in like the lunch room.

414
00:19:08,844 --> 00:19:11,804
Speaker 4: But but I started getting more serious at Yale there

415
00:19:11,844 --> 00:19:15,004
Speaker 4: was a like a game where like a bunch of

416
00:19:15,004 --> 00:19:16,764
Speaker 4: people were like getting pretty serious about the game. And

417
00:19:16,804 --> 00:19:18,564
Speaker 4: I discovered two plus two and I started going to

418
00:19:18,564 --> 00:19:21,724
Speaker 4: Foxwits every week, and you know, so the story goes

419
00:19:22,884 --> 00:19:24,764
Speaker 4: and then so I played for a few years and

420
00:19:24,804 --> 00:19:26,484
Speaker 4: it was okay. But then I don't know, I just

421
00:19:26,524 --> 00:19:29,484
Speaker 4: like thought, I don't know, you know, like you're from

422
00:19:29,604 --> 00:19:32,404
Speaker 4: like an upper middle class Jewish background. You're like, you know,

423
00:19:32,444 --> 00:19:34,884
Speaker 4: you're taught like education, blah blah blah, like I'd done

424
00:19:34,924 --> 00:19:36,764
Speaker 4: well in school. I thought that was kind of just

425
00:19:36,804 --> 00:19:38,204
Speaker 4: like the path. I thought this was just kind of

426
00:19:38,204 --> 00:19:42,924
Speaker 4: like a fun sidetrack thing for me. And so yeah,

427
00:19:42,964 --> 00:19:44,524
Speaker 4: I took all my money offline when I went to

428
00:19:44,604 --> 00:19:46,604
Speaker 4: law school, and I was like, I'm not not doing this.

429
00:19:46,684 --> 00:19:49,284
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna like fall into playing pograming nor my studies.

430
00:19:49,324 --> 00:19:51,124
Speaker 4: This is like a great opportunity. That's what I always

431
00:19:51,164 --> 00:19:51,684
Speaker 4: wanted to do.

432
00:19:52,684 --> 00:19:54,484
Speaker 3: And you'd always wanted to be a lawyer.

433
00:19:55,044 --> 00:19:56,924
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I thought I did.

434
00:19:57,004 --> 00:19:58,924
Speaker 4: I mean that, you know, there's like, you know, you

435
00:19:58,924 --> 00:20:01,924
Speaker 4: don't know what careers actually are available to when you're younger, but.

436
00:20:02,124 --> 00:20:03,484
Speaker 2: It's kind of done that they make you pick when

437
00:20:03,484 --> 00:20:03,884
Speaker 2: you're young.

438
00:20:04,724 --> 00:20:08,484
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, but uh yeah, so I had no idea,

439
00:20:08,484 --> 00:20:11,804
Speaker 4: so thought I wanted to be a layer, and I

440
00:20:11,844 --> 00:20:14,004
Speaker 4: just ended up falling back into poker because I just

441
00:20:14,124 --> 00:20:16,644
Speaker 4: ran like hotter than the sun. In law school, Like

442
00:20:16,684 --> 00:20:20,644
Speaker 4: there were these four tournaments that I played, like two

443
00:20:20,804 --> 00:20:22,564
Speaker 4: there was one tournament fox that it's in one tournament

444
00:20:22,644 --> 00:20:26,604
Speaker 4: Mohigan both years, and I played some like it was

445
00:20:26,684 --> 00:20:28,804
Speaker 4: like you know, a three K, a three k there

446
00:20:28,844 --> 00:20:30,644
Speaker 4: was a main event or and I just like won

447
00:20:30,724 --> 00:20:32,044
Speaker 4: three of them and got third in.

448
00:20:32,004 --> 00:20:36,364
Speaker 5: The other one. It was like, yeah, it was really dumb.

449
00:20:36,404 --> 00:20:37,764
Speaker 4: It was, I mean, part of it was probably like

450
00:20:37,764 --> 00:20:39,724
Speaker 4: I was not being in my own head anymore about

451
00:20:39,804 --> 00:20:41,164
Speaker 4: like I was still not far enough from a move

452
00:20:41,204 --> 00:20:42,324
Speaker 4: poker that was still pretty good at it.

453
00:20:42,364 --> 00:20:43,524
Speaker 5: Everybody else was terrible at.

454
00:20:43,404 --> 00:20:47,364
Speaker 4: That time, and I was just like feeling it, you

455
00:20:47,404 --> 00:20:48,684
Speaker 4: know what I mean, I didn't care. I was just

456
00:20:48,684 --> 00:20:50,844
Speaker 4: playing my game and stuff. So I obviously I was

457
00:20:50,844 --> 00:20:53,524
Speaker 4: also running hotter than the sun, and so I kind

458
00:20:53,524 --> 00:20:54,724
Speaker 4: of just fell back into it at that point.

459
00:20:54,764 --> 00:20:56,804
Speaker 2: Have you seen twenty one, which is a movie adaptation

460
00:20:56,844 --> 00:20:59,844
Speaker 2: to bring down the House? Right, They like fly back

461
00:20:59,924 --> 00:21:03,324
Speaker 2: from like Vegas with like tens of thousands of dollars

462
00:21:03,364 --> 00:21:04,884
Speaker 2: in their pockets, right, and they have to like go

463
00:21:05,004 --> 00:21:07,764
Speaker 2: to their fucking like Monday morning classes where you feel

464
00:21:07,804 --> 00:21:11,164
Speaker 2: like I am cooler and or smarter than these people.

465
00:21:11,644 --> 00:21:13,804
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean not cooler or smarter. That

466
00:21:13,844 --> 00:21:15,924
Speaker 4: definitely was smarter, was definitely not up there.

467
00:21:15,964 --> 00:21:16,564
Speaker 5: But I was like.

468
00:21:16,484 --> 00:21:18,764
Speaker 4: Definitely, like, honestly, I would better, you know what I mean.

469
00:21:18,804 --> 00:21:20,844
Speaker 4: I felt like on top of the world for sure.

470
00:21:21,364 --> 00:21:22,364
Speaker 4: It was always really fun.

471
00:21:22,404 --> 00:21:24,124
Speaker 2: So how long were you kind of doing the whole

472
00:21:25,084 --> 00:21:28,564
Speaker 2: poker tournament live world travel scene and like just because

473
00:21:28,644 --> 00:21:30,724
Speaker 2: like not many people do that, right, And yeah, I'm

474
00:21:30,764 --> 00:21:32,964
Speaker 2: interested in you because you're not somebody I think if you,

475
00:21:32,964 --> 00:21:35,244
Speaker 2: you know, you have a lot of attitude Panessa at

476
00:21:35,964 --> 00:21:38,244
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of things. Yeah, so you

477
00:21:38,324 --> 00:21:40,004
Speaker 2: might not always find your way into this. But like,

478
00:21:40,044 --> 00:21:43,324
Speaker 2: what's it like for someone like you, young, openly gay,

479
00:21:43,404 --> 00:21:46,284
Speaker 2: very bright, has you know, is interested in politics in

480
00:21:46,284 --> 00:21:48,444
Speaker 2: the world. What's it like kind of being on the

481
00:21:48,484 --> 00:21:51,004
Speaker 2: poker scene for a few years, the kind of grindiness

482
00:21:51,004 --> 00:21:52,284
Speaker 2: of it or the glamour of it.

483
00:21:53,044 --> 00:21:59,004
Speaker 4: Yeah, honestly, I like never really felt like a poker pro.

484
00:21:59,084 --> 00:22:00,964
Speaker 4: And I know that's weird to say, to answer your question,

485
00:22:01,004 --> 00:22:04,164
Speaker 4: I played. I would say it was like close as

486
00:22:04,164 --> 00:22:06,404
Speaker 4: close to full time as I ever was from twenty

487
00:22:06,484 --> 00:22:09,564
Speaker 4: eleven to twenty seventeen. So that was kind of like

488
00:22:09,564 --> 00:22:11,764
Speaker 4: the main part of my poker career when I was

489
00:22:11,844 --> 00:22:15,924
Speaker 4: mostly not doing other things, although I still dabbled, dabbled

490
00:22:15,964 --> 00:22:18,164
Speaker 4: in law because I think I was still always trying

491
00:22:18,164 --> 00:22:21,364
Speaker 4: to convince myself that I wasn't really a poker player

492
00:22:21,524 --> 00:22:21,924
Speaker 4: or something.

493
00:22:22,484 --> 00:22:25,924
Speaker 5: But yeah, because honestly, it was hard.

494
00:22:25,924 --> 00:22:28,364
Speaker 4: It was, like I think, it can be really fun,

495
00:22:28,684 --> 00:22:31,284
Speaker 4: you know, you you know like it it's you know,

496
00:22:31,324 --> 00:22:34,324
Speaker 4: you're playing poker. It's the ultimate lifestyle. You're seeing the world.

497
00:22:34,364 --> 00:22:36,324
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't want to dumplay like it was.

498
00:22:36,484 --> 00:22:38,284
Speaker 4: It was really great and it was really fun. You're

499
00:22:38,444 --> 00:22:41,564
Speaker 4: you're seeing the world, you know, traveling from country to

500
00:22:41,604 --> 00:22:45,004
Speaker 4: country or whatever. You get to play a game pretty

501
00:22:45,044 --> 00:22:46,764
Speaker 4: much all day every day if you want to. If

502
00:22:46,764 --> 00:22:48,324
Speaker 4: you wake up and you don't feel like going to work,

503
00:22:48,324 --> 00:22:50,604
Speaker 4: you don't go to work like you you know, you're

504
00:22:51,004 --> 00:22:54,164
Speaker 4: in ultimate control of everything, and at the end of

505
00:22:54,164 --> 00:22:56,524
Speaker 4: the day it's really fun. You're meeting really interesting people

506
00:22:56,524 --> 00:22:59,564
Speaker 4: from all over the world. I did find it hard.

507
00:22:59,604 --> 00:23:04,204
Speaker 4: I guess to kind of stay informed and stay kind

508
00:23:04,244 --> 00:23:07,124
Speaker 4: of doing things that felt like meaningful. I think a

509
00:23:07,124 --> 00:23:09,244
Speaker 4: lot of poker players struggle with that, like finding meeting

510
00:23:09,484 --> 00:23:11,764
Speaker 4: Like when you're just playing a card game all the time,

511
00:23:11,804 --> 00:23:13,084
Speaker 4: it's like kind of what is the point of this?

512
00:23:13,204 --> 00:23:16,044
Speaker 4: You know, When I was doing law, my goal was

513
00:23:16,084 --> 00:23:19,044
Speaker 4: to be a civil rights attorney, but I just you know,

514
00:23:19,204 --> 00:23:20,764
Speaker 4: my brain is built in a certain way, and I

515
00:23:20,764 --> 00:23:23,604
Speaker 4: tried being a lawyer, but it was horribly inefficient and

516
00:23:23,764 --> 00:23:27,124
Speaker 4: just like I just couldn't do it, Like it just

517
00:23:27,164 --> 00:23:30,404
Speaker 4: felt really slow and not like fun. And I think

518
00:23:30,444 --> 00:23:32,444
Speaker 4: poker and trading is the thing that gets me really

519
00:23:32,444 --> 00:23:34,884
Speaker 4: excited in terms of the strategy, Like you're constantly making

520
00:23:34,964 --> 00:23:38,604
Speaker 4: strategic decisions like every second of the day. So for me,

521
00:23:39,284 --> 00:23:40,924
Speaker 4: it was just sort of like an evolution of my

522
00:23:41,204 --> 00:23:43,324
Speaker 4: understanding of self that I that I knew this is

523
00:23:43,364 --> 00:23:45,684
Speaker 4: what like made me happy, and then what do I

524
00:23:45,724 --> 00:23:48,324
Speaker 4: have to do to make meaning for myself in the world.

525
00:23:48,364 --> 00:23:50,444
Speaker 4: And so being in the poker world, it was just

526
00:23:50,484 --> 00:23:53,444
Speaker 4: like hard to kind of be more well rounded, like

527
00:23:53,564 --> 00:23:55,644
Speaker 4: have interests in different places. It was like, you know,

528
00:23:55,684 --> 00:23:57,924
Speaker 4: when you're traveling, there's this weird disoriented thing of like

529
00:23:57,964 --> 00:24:01,524
Speaker 4: being your physical environment kind of dictates like what you're

530
00:24:01,564 --> 00:24:03,404
Speaker 4: thinking about or what you're focusing on. And so for me,

531
00:24:03,444 --> 00:24:05,964
Speaker 4: it's like, now I have a boring routine. I have kids,

532
00:24:06,084 --> 00:24:08,524
Speaker 4: I wake up, I like have my boring commute. I

533
00:24:08,564 --> 00:24:09,324
Speaker 4: like go to the office, you know.

534
00:24:09,444 --> 00:24:11,324
Speaker 5: I mean like I just kind of like understand what

535
00:24:11,364 --> 00:24:11,764
Speaker 5: life is.

536
00:24:12,364 --> 00:24:14,684
Speaker 2: If you have a big trade on, do you enjoy

537
00:24:14,724 --> 00:24:15,404
Speaker 2: the sweat of that?

538
00:24:16,724 --> 00:24:19,724
Speaker 3: What he's asking is, are you still a djen Vanessa?

539
00:24:19,884 --> 00:24:21,244
Speaker 5: Am I still a DGEN? Yeah?

540
00:24:21,404 --> 00:24:24,084
Speaker 4: No, for sure, I'm still a DGEN, much more so

541
00:24:24,204 --> 00:24:26,804
Speaker 4: than anybody else. I'm like, for sure, I like to,

542
00:24:26,964 --> 00:24:28,924
Speaker 4: you know, sweat the outcome of trades and stuff. But

543
00:24:29,044 --> 00:24:31,564
Speaker 4: you're you know, but but much less than poker than I.

544
00:24:31,644 --> 00:24:33,964
Speaker 4: You know, it's not like the most DGEN exciting stuff.

545
00:24:34,004 --> 00:24:38,084
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're playing poker. I can imagine a very

546
00:24:38,204 --> 00:24:41,804
Speaker 2: very particular skills set. I don't know if I want

547
00:24:41,844 --> 00:24:43,644
Speaker 2: to stereot type people. I can imagine a very particular

548
00:24:43,644 --> 00:24:48,604
Speaker 2: type person has like poor social skills and it's very undisciplined,

549
00:24:48,644 --> 00:24:51,604
Speaker 2: right for whom like poker is a maximizing amount of money,

550
00:24:51,604 --> 00:24:56,204
Speaker 2: But for for ninety seven percent of good players, then

551
00:24:56,524 --> 00:24:59,404
Speaker 2: you can probably make more money doing something else if

552
00:24:59,404 --> 00:25:00,844
Speaker 2: you still want to be a DJ, and then you

553
00:25:00,844 --> 00:25:03,164
Speaker 2: can go work for Hedge fund or something. But like,

554
00:25:03,524 --> 00:25:06,804
Speaker 2: I mean, when you shots fired, how did you get

555
00:25:06,844 --> 00:25:07,484
Speaker 2: into this industry?

556
00:25:07,524 --> 00:25:07,564
Speaker 1: That?

557
00:25:07,564 --> 00:25:10,324
Speaker 2: Because I mean you you you quit and literally the

558
00:25:10,324 --> 00:25:13,044
Speaker 2: New York Times wrote about you. That's pretty cool. Yeah,

559
00:25:13,644 --> 00:25:16,604
Speaker 2: did you find Bridgewater or they found you or or

560
00:25:16,764 --> 00:25:18,604
Speaker 2: you found them through friends or how did this relationship

561
00:25:18,604 --> 00:25:19,044
Speaker 2: come about?

562
00:25:20,324 --> 00:25:20,564
Speaker 5: Yeah?

563
00:25:21,004 --> 00:25:23,964
Speaker 4: It was just Galen, like Galen Hall, another really successful

564
00:25:24,004 --> 00:25:27,124
Speaker 4: poker player. Like, I didn't know anything about finance. I

565
00:25:28,644 --> 00:25:30,804
Speaker 4: kind of thought of it as like you know, the

566
00:25:30,844 --> 00:25:33,404
Speaker 4: Wolf of Wall Street kind of situation, you know.

567
00:25:33,764 --> 00:25:35,964
Speaker 5: So Galen was working at.

568
00:25:35,844 --> 00:25:37,604
Speaker 4: Bridgewater and he was like, oh yeah, this place like

569
00:25:37,644 --> 00:25:39,084
Speaker 4: they'll higher you. They have a really good the kind

570
00:25:39,124 --> 00:25:41,044
Speaker 4: of like education program. And so I was just thrilled

571
00:25:41,044 --> 00:25:43,764
Speaker 4: that I had heard about finance and like kind of

572
00:25:43,804 --> 00:25:45,604
Speaker 4: how it was similar to poker. And my mom actually

573
00:25:45,644 --> 00:25:48,884
Speaker 4: had been an options trader when an avid poker player.

574
00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:49,524
Speaker 3: That's amazing.

575
00:25:49,964 --> 00:25:50,804
Speaker 5: What year was that?

576
00:25:51,524 --> 00:25:52,484
Speaker 3: How did that happen?

577
00:25:54,004 --> 00:25:54,284
Speaker 5: Yeah?

578
00:25:54,324 --> 00:25:58,084
Speaker 4: She played poker like basically to put herself through college,

579
00:25:59,204 --> 00:26:01,964
Speaker 4: which I guess was in like seventy three or seventy

580
00:26:02,004 --> 00:26:07,564
Speaker 4: two and then was an option trader like in the nineties. Yeah,

581
00:26:07,844 --> 00:26:09,324
Speaker 4: on the American stocky strain.

582
00:26:09,604 --> 00:26:12,284
Speaker 5: It's pretty crazy. The only woman I think.

583
00:26:12,244 --> 00:26:14,124
Speaker 3: I was gonna say there might m must not have

584
00:26:14,164 --> 00:26:14,884
Speaker 3: been married many.

585
00:26:14,924 --> 00:26:18,204
Speaker 4: It was basically just her and so so I'd heard

586
00:26:18,204 --> 00:26:19,804
Speaker 4: about it, but I but I didn't know much about it,

587
00:26:19,804 --> 00:26:22,084
Speaker 4: and so Galen was like, yeah, they'll they'll teach you

588
00:26:22,164 --> 00:26:23,684
Speaker 4: and whatever. So I was just told someone was like

589
00:26:23,724 --> 00:26:26,484
Speaker 4: willing to give me a job. But yeah, ultimately it wasn't.

590
00:26:26,524 --> 00:26:28,364
Speaker 4: It wasn't like the right fit. And they're like kind

591
00:26:28,364 --> 00:26:31,004
Speaker 4: of more they do like kind of like long term

592
00:26:31,044 --> 00:26:36,404
Speaker 4: investment strategy stuff, and so it felt more like a

593
00:26:36,404 --> 00:26:37,804
Speaker 4: think tank. Like I would try to get people to

594
00:26:37,804 --> 00:26:39,524
Speaker 4: gamble with me on stuff and they were just like no,

595
00:26:39,724 --> 00:26:41,964
Speaker 4: and I'm like, what, like what you know, don't we

596
00:26:42,004 --> 00:26:44,244
Speaker 4: work at a Like I would finally get people to

597
00:26:44,284 --> 00:26:46,244
Speaker 4: gamble with me. They'd owe me like, you know, seven

598
00:26:46,284 --> 00:26:48,244
Speaker 4: dollars and sixty cents because like that's what they were

599
00:26:48,244 --> 00:26:50,484
Speaker 4: comfortable gambling for and they were like or like whatever,

600
00:26:50,724 --> 00:26:52,644
Speaker 4: and they're like, okay, can you pay me? And I'm

601
00:26:52,684 --> 00:26:54,524
Speaker 4: like yeah, like let's just flip until it's like one

602
00:26:54,604 --> 00:26:57,764
Speaker 4: hundred or zero, and you actually liked this story. Literally,

603
00:26:57,764 --> 00:26:59,644
Speaker 4: I'd have debts of like thirteen dollars that I would

604
00:26:59,724 --> 00:27:01,284
Speaker 4: have to pay, and so I'd be like, okay, let's

605
00:27:01,284 --> 00:27:03,004
Speaker 4: just flip, like, let's roll a hundred sid to die

606
00:27:03,044 --> 00:27:05,284
Speaker 4: and you know, I'll take thirteen number or you can

607
00:27:05,284 --> 00:27:07,404
Speaker 4: take thirteen numbers and you know, if you get one

608
00:27:07,444 --> 00:27:07,924
Speaker 4: of them, I'll.

609
00:27:07,764 --> 00:27:08,444
Speaker 5: Give you a hundred bucks.

610
00:27:08,444 --> 00:27:11,404
Speaker 4: And they're like no, I'm just like, they're like, I

611
00:27:11,444 --> 00:27:14,164
Speaker 4: don't campl like, I can't deal with this. So what

612
00:27:14,284 --> 00:27:19,204
Speaker 4: I I went to the bank and I got a

613
00:27:19,204 --> 00:27:22,884
Speaker 4: lot of rolls of pennies and some nickels, and I

614
00:27:22,964 --> 00:27:25,244
Speaker 4: unrolled them all, a lot of them, like one hundred

615
00:27:25,324 --> 00:27:27,564
Speaker 4: rolls of pennies and like one hundred rolls of nickels,

616
00:27:27,604 --> 00:27:29,284
Speaker 4: and I put them in a bag under my desk,

617
00:27:29,324 --> 00:27:32,404
Speaker 4: and anytime someone wanted me to pay them a debt

618
00:27:32,724 --> 00:27:35,844
Speaker 4: and a number that wasn't a round number, I used

619
00:27:35,844 --> 00:27:38,044
Speaker 4: to just sort through my bag of pennies and nickels

620
00:27:38,084 --> 00:27:38,764
Speaker 4: and pay the debt.

621
00:27:38,804 --> 00:27:42,564
Speaker 3: That way is the best.

622
00:27:42,644 --> 00:27:46,844
Speaker 4: Yeah, And when when I left, actually, my old coworkers

623
00:27:46,844 --> 00:27:49,444
Speaker 4: met up at some point, like a few months later,

624
00:27:49,444 --> 00:27:49,684
Speaker 4: and they.

625
00:27:49,644 --> 00:27:52,164
Speaker 5: Were like, Oh, we found this bag of pennies under

626
00:27:52,204 --> 00:27:53,124
Speaker 5: your desk? Did you want that?

627
00:27:53,604 --> 00:27:53,684
Speaker 4: Like?

628
00:27:53,764 --> 00:27:56,284
Speaker 3: No, no, no, So you worked with a bunch of nets, Vanessa,

629
00:27:56,724 --> 00:27:58,204
Speaker 3: is what you're trying?

630
00:27:59,084 --> 00:28:01,404
Speaker 4: I was like, literally, do you guys remember that this?

631
00:28:01,804 --> 00:28:04,164
Speaker 4: But anyway, so it wasn't it wasn't the same kind

632
00:28:04,164 --> 00:28:06,484
Speaker 4: of fit. But luckily that's where I heard about Jane Street,

633
00:28:06,484 --> 00:28:07,564
Speaker 4: which is a much better fit.

634
00:28:07,684 --> 00:28:13,284
Speaker 3: So do you feel like poker has kind of enabled

635
00:28:13,324 --> 00:28:15,484
Speaker 3: you to excel in that kind of environment? Was it

636
00:28:15,484 --> 00:28:18,684
Speaker 3: transferable or were both of these things that you kind

637
00:28:18,724 --> 00:28:21,124
Speaker 3: of carried with you both to poker and now to

638
00:28:21,684 --> 00:28:24,924
Speaker 3: Bridgewater and then and then Jane straight like is it

639
00:28:24,964 --> 00:28:28,324
Speaker 3: what you're bringing to it or did it impart knowledge

640
00:28:28,324 --> 00:28:29,564
Speaker 3: that you're now using as well?

641
00:28:30,124 --> 00:28:32,724
Speaker 4: Oh? I mean, like of course, Like it's a completely

642
00:28:32,764 --> 00:28:34,604
Speaker 4: different sphere, Like there was a ton to learn. There's

643
00:28:34,604 --> 00:28:36,724
Speaker 4: still a ton to learn, like learning all the time.

644
00:28:36,804 --> 00:28:42,124
Speaker 4: It's it's like such a complicated complex like world, but poker.

645
00:28:42,284 --> 00:28:45,284
Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't realize just how much it mattered,

646
00:28:45,284 --> 00:28:48,604
Speaker 4: Like how much whether it's just poker or just general

647
00:28:48,804 --> 00:28:51,564
Speaker 4: strategic thinking, Like I think the way that poker players

648
00:28:51,604 --> 00:28:54,764
Speaker 4: think is the way that traders think like just thinking

649
00:28:54,764 --> 00:28:57,564
Speaker 4: about things and expected values, but also just like thinking

650
00:28:57,564 --> 00:29:00,444
Speaker 4: about the different players in a game and your motivations,

651
00:29:00,484 --> 00:29:02,084
Speaker 4: because if you're trading, someone else is on the other

652
00:29:02,124 --> 00:29:05,964
Speaker 4: side of the trade, and particularly I trade options and options

653
00:29:05,964 --> 00:29:08,844
Speaker 4: are like really complex things where there's like a lot

654
00:29:08,844 --> 00:29:12,044
Speaker 4: of different kinds of risk and different like kind of

655
00:29:12,444 --> 00:29:15,404
Speaker 4: distributions of returns and whatever, and so you really have

656
00:29:15,444 --> 00:29:18,204
Speaker 4: to think through like the different possible situations, the probabilities

657
00:29:18,204 --> 00:29:22,124
Speaker 4: of them, what someone's motivation, the whole concept of average selection.

658
00:29:22,284 --> 00:29:24,844
Speaker 4: Who am I trading against? What is their motivation? It

659
00:29:24,884 --> 00:29:27,644
Speaker 4: really does feel like being in a poker game, and

660
00:29:27,644 --> 00:29:29,324
Speaker 4: and there's the reason, like a lot of you know,

661
00:29:29,324 --> 00:29:30,884
Speaker 4: there's a lot of poker players at the firm that

662
00:29:30,964 --> 00:29:33,644
Speaker 4: are anywhere from casual poker players where there's always poker

663
00:29:33,684 --> 00:29:36,804
Speaker 4: games going. We have poker tables in our like main cafeteria,

664
00:29:37,524 --> 00:29:39,284
Speaker 4: and so there's always a poker game after work.

665
00:29:39,324 --> 00:29:41,084
Speaker 5: And then you know, even at the.

666
00:29:41,044 --> 00:29:43,204
Speaker 4: World Series, a couple of the guys always go out

667
00:29:43,244 --> 00:29:45,404
Speaker 4: and one of them actually I think got like second

668
00:29:45,484 --> 00:29:47,564
Speaker 4: or third, I don't actually remember, and one of the

669
00:29:47,724 --> 00:29:50,484
Speaker 4: one of the events last year. So there's like some

670
00:29:50,484 --> 00:29:53,204
Speaker 4: serious poker players here and it's not you know, it's

671
00:29:53,244 --> 00:29:55,204
Speaker 4: not a coincidence. Like there's a huge amount of like

672
00:29:55,244 --> 00:29:56,124
Speaker 4: crossover skills.

673
00:29:56,204 --> 00:29:59,684
Speaker 2: Do you find it hard to play against coworkers because

674
00:29:59,724 --> 00:30:01,884
Speaker 2: of like the office politics dimension of it.

675
00:30:04,644 --> 00:30:07,564
Speaker 5: Uh no, only office politics.

676
00:30:07,244 --> 00:30:10,204
Speaker 3: And I love how you said that competition.

677
00:30:10,324 --> 00:30:13,924
Speaker 4: No, no, No, it's like it's actually like amazing because

678
00:30:13,964 --> 00:30:15,484
Speaker 4: I think Jane Street is really good at this if

679
00:30:15,524 --> 00:30:18,764
Speaker 4: like it's it's really competitive in the sense of like

680
00:30:18,844 --> 00:30:21,804
Speaker 4: everybody comes from a place of like being having really

681
00:30:21,804 --> 00:30:24,044
Speaker 4: competitive background. Like a lot of a lot of the

682
00:30:24,044 --> 00:30:26,684
Speaker 4: people that get hired are people that have a history

683
00:30:26,684 --> 00:30:30,404
Speaker 4: of playing games or math competitions or or whatever. It

684
00:30:30,484 --> 00:30:32,724
Speaker 4: is like you know a lot of people with like

685
00:30:32,804 --> 00:30:37,284
Speaker 4: really competitive personalities. But Jane Street is a place that

686
00:30:37,444 --> 00:30:40,044
Speaker 4: is very collaborative, like out of all of the different

687
00:30:41,084 --> 00:30:45,164
Speaker 4: you know, training firms or whatever, like just for a

688
00:30:45,164 --> 00:30:47,404
Speaker 4: lot of reasons, Like it's just like a very collaborative,

689
00:30:47,444 --> 00:30:49,804
Speaker 4: like congenial place. So it's sort of like a great

690
00:30:49,844 --> 00:30:52,364
Speaker 4: mix where we're like super competitive with each other at

691
00:30:52,364 --> 00:30:54,524
Speaker 4: the poker table, but just in like a fun way,

692
00:30:54,724 --> 00:30:58,484
Speaker 4: you know, a place where people just really appreciate when

693
00:30:58,484 --> 00:31:01,564
Speaker 4: someone like outplays someone else and just like, oh yeah, props,

694
00:31:01,564 --> 00:31:03,164
Speaker 4: Like that was awesome. Like everyone just wants to outplay

695
00:31:03,204 --> 00:31:06,124
Speaker 4: each other, you know, and and play really well and

696
00:31:06,204 --> 00:31:08,444
Speaker 4: like that's that's the joy of it is is just

697
00:31:08,484 --> 00:31:10,404
Speaker 4: like finding the best place and figuring it out, you know.

698
00:31:14,164 --> 00:31:18,324
Speaker 2: And we'll be right back after this break.

699
00:31:29,044 --> 00:31:34,044
Speaker 3: Is that a GPI award that I spy over your shoulders? Pokers?

700
00:31:34,084 --> 00:31:35,404
Speaker 5: It's a bookend. It's a bookend.

701
00:31:35,524 --> 00:31:37,804
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is a GPI saying it as a

702
00:31:37,804 --> 00:31:40,604
Speaker 3: book and you're using it. But but don't don't skirt

703
00:31:40,684 --> 00:31:41,044
Speaker 3: the question.

704
00:31:41,124 --> 00:31:43,284
Speaker 2: You do know about prize? It's a bookend, it's.

705
00:31:44,764 --> 00:31:45,364
Speaker 5: I guess it is.

706
00:31:45,444 --> 00:31:48,484
Speaker 4: Yeah, Actually, I just know you'll like this too. I

707
00:31:48,564 --> 00:31:51,404
Speaker 4: just finally cleaned out my garage after four years. Uh

708
00:31:51,444 --> 00:31:55,204
Speaker 4: we am renovating the basement and we moved here four

709
00:31:55,284 --> 00:31:58,004
Speaker 4: years ago. I'm in Montclair, New Jersey, and we realized

710
00:31:58,044 --> 00:32:03,204
Speaker 4: I hadn't really unpacked. So I finally found all of

711
00:32:03,204 --> 00:32:05,564
Speaker 4: my old trophies. This is now sitting in my office.

712
00:32:06,924 --> 00:32:10,724
Speaker 4: It's my old oh Bartush poker turn. This is the

713
00:32:10,684 --> 00:32:13,644
Speaker 4: best biggest tournament I ever won. It's covered in hay.

714
00:32:14,444 --> 00:32:16,364
Speaker 4: This is okay, so you can find some Hey, here

715
00:32:16,364 --> 00:32:18,164
Speaker 4: you go there's like a whole bunch of hay everywhere.

716
00:32:18,164 --> 00:32:19,044
Speaker 5: I don't know if you can see.

717
00:32:19,284 --> 00:32:21,764
Speaker 4: Yeah, because my wife decided that it was a good

718
00:32:21,804 --> 00:32:24,884
Speaker 4: idea to purchase lots of different bales of hay and

719
00:32:25,004 --> 00:32:26,244
Speaker 4: keep them also in our garage.

720
00:32:26,244 --> 00:32:27,004
Speaker 5: So now all of.

721
00:32:27,084 --> 00:32:29,084
Speaker 4: Because I don't know, you have to decorate for fall.

722
00:32:29,284 --> 00:32:31,564
Speaker 4: I don't know, there's like a lapse. She's very into decorating,

723
00:32:31,564 --> 00:32:35,164
Speaker 4: and there's apparently a lapse between Halloween and Christmas that

724
00:32:35,244 --> 00:32:37,844
Speaker 4: involves lots of barrels of hay. But anyway, all of

725
00:32:37,844 --> 00:32:39,844
Speaker 4: my old trophies are now covered in hay.

726
00:32:41,204 --> 00:32:42,364
Speaker 5: And have like lots of cracks.

727
00:32:42,364 --> 00:32:44,004
Speaker 4: So I got to figure out what to do with them,

728
00:32:44,164 --> 00:32:46,084
Speaker 4: maybe like some kind of we My kids were trying

729
00:32:46,124 --> 00:32:47,084
Speaker 4: to use them as weapons.

730
00:32:47,484 --> 00:32:49,524
Speaker 3: So Partush was the biggest tournament you ever won.

731
00:32:50,164 --> 00:32:51,324
Speaker 5: Yeah, and the biggest trophy.

732
00:32:51,564 --> 00:32:54,844
Speaker 3: That's amazing, Vanessa. Were you at the Partouche with the

733
00:32:54,924 --> 00:32:57,044
Speaker 3: cheating scandal or was that not your ear?

734
00:32:57,124 --> 00:32:59,124
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, that was that was my year. Yeah, that's

735
00:32:59,164 --> 00:33:00,924
Speaker 4: a good, great memory that you remember that. Well.

736
00:33:00,964 --> 00:33:03,364
Speaker 3: I'm I'm writing a book about cheating right now, so

737
00:33:03,604 --> 00:33:07,244
Speaker 3: oh awesome. So for people who aren't familiar, since you

738
00:33:07,324 --> 00:33:11,884
Speaker 3: were there. This is a great store and involved journalism

739
00:33:12,004 --> 00:33:14,444
Speaker 3: or faux journalism and a lot of things. So, Nest,

740
00:33:14,444 --> 00:33:15,764
Speaker 3: do you want to tell us a little bit about

741
00:33:15,764 --> 00:33:18,204
Speaker 3: your part twish victory and this crazy moment.

742
00:33:19,404 --> 00:33:19,724
Speaker 5: Yeah.

743
00:33:19,804 --> 00:33:21,964
Speaker 4: So, well, from my perspective, I was a triplayer going

744
00:33:22,004 --> 00:33:24,044
Speaker 4: into the final table and it was the delayed final table,

745
00:33:24,084 --> 00:33:27,244
Speaker 4: which was crazy. So we finished the tournament in September

746
00:33:28,004 --> 00:33:31,084
Speaker 4: and played down to the final table and then played

747
00:33:31,084 --> 00:33:32,644
Speaker 4: the final table in November, so we had like two

748
00:33:32,684 --> 00:33:34,404
Speaker 4: months to stew on it. So I'm having like literal

749
00:33:34,524 --> 00:33:37,084
Speaker 4: nightmares that I'm like chip leader my equity. It was

750
00:33:37,124 --> 00:33:39,004
Speaker 4: the biggest turnam I ever played. First prize was almost

751
00:33:39,044 --> 00:33:42,924
Speaker 4: two million, you know, and I was having nightmares that

752
00:33:42,924 --> 00:33:44,604
Speaker 4: I would like bust out ninth. So when I get

753
00:33:44,604 --> 00:33:47,364
Speaker 4: there and they're like, oh, congratulations, everyone's got at least eighth,

754
00:33:47,364 --> 00:33:49,284
Speaker 4: I was like, Okay, cool, I'm gonna win this now,

755
00:33:49,644 --> 00:33:52,604
Speaker 4: you know, Like basically all of my nightmares were no more.

756
00:33:52,724 --> 00:33:54,684
Speaker 4: But but yeah, so when I got there, they were like, yeah,

757
00:33:54,684 --> 00:33:56,204
Speaker 4: you're all guaranteed eighth for like what.

758
00:33:56,444 --> 00:33:57,124
Speaker 5: They're like, oh yeah.

759
00:33:57,204 --> 00:33:58,964
Speaker 4: One of the guys was just like cheating the whole

760
00:33:58,964 --> 00:34:01,404
Speaker 4: time throughout the whole tournament and also on the whole

761
00:34:01,404 --> 00:34:04,524
Speaker 4: poker tour. Yeah, he had these like like journalists I

762
00:34:04,564 --> 00:34:07,164
Speaker 4: guess with this like fake website that had nothing on it.

763
00:34:07,284 --> 00:34:09,084
Speaker 4: I think it was like I don't remember the name

764
00:34:09,084 --> 00:34:11,524
Speaker 4: of this, but he would just have like fake journalists

765
00:34:11,564 --> 00:34:14,524
Speaker 4: stand behind people and like fake report and then just

766
00:34:14,524 --> 00:34:18,004
Speaker 4: like give signs to this guy Ali what was his name.

767
00:34:18,804 --> 00:34:21,564
Speaker 3: His name was Ali Tecantum.

768
00:34:21,124 --> 00:34:23,084
Speaker 5: Guk tech and tagak. There you go.

769
00:34:23,244 --> 00:34:25,084
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good fucking cheat.

770
00:34:25,324 --> 00:34:27,404
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he would just give him signals on like

771
00:34:27,404 --> 00:34:28,924
Speaker 4: what they had, and he's just like looking over at

772
00:34:28,924 --> 00:34:29,524
Speaker 4: paper soldiers.

773
00:34:29,564 --> 00:34:30,484
Speaker 5: It was so old school.

774
00:34:30,524 --> 00:34:33,444
Speaker 4: There's no devices, there's no like you know, poker's gotten

775
00:34:33,444 --> 00:34:36,684
Speaker 4: a lot more sophisticated, like we've gotten poker cheating solvers now.

776
00:34:36,724 --> 00:34:37,844
Speaker 5: I feel like, you know that are.

777
00:34:37,724 --> 00:34:40,124
Speaker 4: Just they're like, that is not the GTO way to cheat,

778
00:34:40,124 --> 00:34:42,284
Speaker 4: Like the GTO way to cheat with this strategy would

779
00:34:42,324 --> 00:34:44,844
Speaker 4: have at least involved having legitimate poker blog that had

780
00:34:44,844 --> 00:34:48,564
Speaker 4: some words on it. But but yeah, so he was

781
00:34:48,604 --> 00:34:49,444
Speaker 4: finally discovered.

782
00:34:49,484 --> 00:34:51,684
Speaker 2: So you can't trust you can't trust journalists. See.

783
00:34:52,044 --> 00:34:53,964
Speaker 3: Well, it was one of those things where when I

784
00:34:54,004 --> 00:34:57,004
Speaker 3: heard that story, I was like, oh, Wow, like you

785
00:34:57,084 --> 00:35:00,604
Speaker 3: really need to learn how to protect your cards, Like, yeah,

786
00:35:00,684 --> 00:35:03,364
Speaker 3: just you know, it's crazy that cheating. I mean, cheating

787
00:35:03,364 --> 00:35:06,044
Speaker 3: has always been a part of whenever there's money. Even

788
00:35:06,084 --> 00:35:09,284
Speaker 3: when there's no money, there's there's cheating. People cheat on

789
00:35:09,564 --> 00:35:12,204
Speaker 3: trivia nights. But yeah, I just remember that he had

790
00:35:12,204 --> 00:35:14,524
Speaker 3: the fake journalist who would look at people's cards and

791
00:35:14,964 --> 00:35:19,164
Speaker 3: just hand signs, completely old school, and you think about.

792
00:35:18,924 --> 00:35:21,884
Speaker 2: All this, like the press hats and stuff like that probably.

793
00:35:21,684 --> 00:35:23,244
Speaker 3: Had, Yeah, all of these things.

794
00:35:23,644 --> 00:35:25,164
Speaker 4: It went on for like a year and a half

795
00:35:25,364 --> 00:35:27,524
Speaker 4: something crazy like it was. But like the number of

796
00:35:27,604 --> 00:35:29,604
Speaker 4: cheating scales that you've read about and been like, wow,

797
00:35:29,604 --> 00:35:32,004
Speaker 4: if you were just a little less greedy, you could

798
00:35:32,004 --> 00:35:33,164
Speaker 4: have gotten away with this forever.

799
00:35:33,364 --> 00:35:35,444
Speaker 3: Absolutely no, I mean that I think that's the case

800
00:35:35,484 --> 00:35:37,564
Speaker 3: with most of them, whether or not it's poker, that

801
00:35:37,684 --> 00:35:40,684
Speaker 3: if you just cheated a little bit smarter and you know,

802
00:35:40,764 --> 00:35:44,124
Speaker 3: got out a little bit faster, we would not know

803
00:35:44,164 --> 00:35:46,564
Speaker 3: about it. And some of the biggest cheating stories in

804
00:35:46,644 --> 00:35:49,724
Speaker 3: poker they did get out. And so, oh my god,

805
00:35:49,844 --> 00:35:54,804
Speaker 3: you have user for your people's reputation that is more

806
00:35:54,924 --> 00:35:56,004
Speaker 3: or less intact.

807
00:35:56,844 --> 00:35:58,964
Speaker 4: Really, are you gonna uncover some of this in your book.

808
00:36:00,564 --> 00:36:03,964
Speaker 3: I will have to have some allegedlies in there. I will.

809
00:36:03,964 --> 00:36:05,644
Speaker 3: I will tell you that one of the people is

810
00:36:05,684 --> 00:36:08,524
Speaker 3: no longer alive, so you could probably put two and

811
00:36:08,524 --> 00:36:09,044
Speaker 3: two together.

812
00:36:10,124 --> 00:36:11,844
Speaker 5: But yeah, that's my favorite guy.

813
00:36:12,044 --> 00:36:14,484
Speaker 2: Mahy have been from the Southern United States.

814
00:36:14,844 --> 00:36:23,404
Speaker 3: Yeah, Nate's accents, nate'scent. So are you now, you know,

815
00:36:23,484 --> 00:36:27,324
Speaker 3: now that you're kind of settled down, do you how

816
00:36:27,364 --> 00:36:30,564
Speaker 3: do you feel about poker? I'm actually just curious. You know,

817
00:36:30,604 --> 00:36:32,284
Speaker 3: we obviously know it's a big part of your life

818
00:36:32,324 --> 00:36:36,244
Speaker 3: because you have your GPI award in your zoom background,

819
00:36:36,404 --> 00:36:40,164
Speaker 3: and you've got your You're not you've got your part.

820
00:36:40,364 --> 00:36:42,444
Speaker 2: I mean, I've got that World Series Poker carpeting.

821
00:36:42,484 --> 00:36:46,564
Speaker 3: I think, where are your bracelets, Vanessa? But I mean

822
00:36:46,644 --> 00:36:50,084
Speaker 3: it is, it is, actually it is remarkable that and

823
00:36:50,284 --> 00:36:52,444
Speaker 3: you know, there's a numbers game. A lot of things

824
00:36:52,444 --> 00:36:54,524
Speaker 3: have changed in the game since you've left, but a

825
00:36:54,524 --> 00:36:58,124
Speaker 3: lot of things haven't. This year was a record low

826
00:36:58,244 --> 00:37:01,004
Speaker 3: number of women in the w s P main event

827
00:37:01,644 --> 00:37:04,044
Speaker 3: for like, you know, it just it went, it went.

828
00:37:05,124 --> 00:37:07,044
Speaker 5: It was It's just like low enough that it's just.

829
00:37:07,524 --> 00:37:11,084
Speaker 3: It was just yeah, exactly in terms of like the

830
00:37:11,164 --> 00:37:13,964
Speaker 3: last you know when people have been tracking this, there's

831
00:37:14,004 --> 00:37:17,484
Speaker 3: still So when I won my first bracelet this year,

832
00:37:18,324 --> 00:37:19,044
Speaker 3: I was, I think.

833
00:37:19,004 --> 00:37:20,524
Speaker 5: Woman, I don't know, you want to bracelet?

834
00:37:20,604 --> 00:37:23,604
Speaker 3: Ye? What so I was woman number like twenty nine,

835
00:37:23,644 --> 00:37:25,444
Speaker 3: I think it was. I don't remember. It was under

836
00:37:25,484 --> 00:37:28,284
Speaker 3: thirty women who've won open bracelet events since the beginning?

837
00:37:28,284 --> 00:37:28,844
Speaker 5: What did you win?

838
00:37:28,924 --> 00:37:29,604
Speaker 3: How do I know?

839
00:37:29,644 --> 00:37:32,884
Speaker 5: I really don't follow poker all, but congratulations.

840
00:37:32,124 --> 00:37:35,124
Speaker 3: That's OK, thank you. It was that was eighty eight

841
00:37:35,204 --> 00:37:35,924
Speaker 3: crazy eights.

842
00:37:36,044 --> 00:37:36,644
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

843
00:37:37,764 --> 00:37:39,684
Speaker 3: So that that was fun. But it was a you know,

844
00:37:40,044 --> 00:37:42,844
Speaker 3: women's are still not really winning open events. Like so

845
00:37:43,004 --> 00:37:44,764
Speaker 3: if you don't count the women's events and you don't

846
00:37:44,804 --> 00:37:47,444
Speaker 3: count senior, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's still under thirty. Like

847
00:37:47,484 --> 00:37:48,844
Speaker 3: I said, I think I was number twenty nine.

848
00:37:48,884 --> 00:37:49,084
Speaker 5: I don't.

849
00:37:49,084 --> 00:37:51,404
Speaker 4: Actually, I feel embarrassed to be in the presence of

850
00:37:51,404 --> 00:37:52,404
Speaker 4: two bracelet winners.

851
00:37:52,484 --> 00:37:52,764
Speaker 5: I am.

852
00:37:53,124 --> 00:37:55,484
Speaker 2: I fucking guess second a couple of years ago. I mean,

853
00:37:55,684 --> 00:37:58,164
Speaker 2: we're gonna grind this year. They're going to grind schedule

854
00:37:58,164 --> 00:37:58,644
Speaker 2: card this year.

855
00:37:58,884 --> 00:38:01,924
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm curious kind of how you know, giving

856
00:38:01,964 --> 00:38:04,564
Speaker 3: your legacy and that you're you're still I mean, if

857
00:38:04,604 --> 00:38:07,204
Speaker 3: I were to say, like, who is the person I

858
00:38:07,284 --> 00:38:08,764
Speaker 3: most look up to in the game, it would be

859
00:38:08,804 --> 00:38:12,924
Speaker 3: you on a because because of the of what you've accomplished,

860
00:38:12,964 --> 00:38:14,844
Speaker 3: and it does it does you know, it means a

861
00:38:14,884 --> 00:38:17,004
Speaker 3: lot like where you came from and you know kind

862
00:38:17,044 --> 00:38:20,564
Speaker 3: of what you've done. And I don't know who's number two, right,

863
00:38:20,644 --> 00:38:22,884
Speaker 3: Like you're kind of in a category of your own.

864
00:38:23,164 --> 00:38:24,924
Speaker 3: So how do you you know, how do you think

865
00:38:24,964 --> 00:38:28,444
Speaker 3: about your your legacy? You're still very much alive and

866
00:38:28,484 --> 00:38:30,844
Speaker 3: still playing, but like how you know, how is that

867
00:38:30,884 --> 00:38:32,724
Speaker 3: a part of your life other than you know, being

868
00:38:32,724 --> 00:38:34,044
Speaker 3: a part of your Zoom background.

869
00:38:34,444 --> 00:38:34,604
Speaker 2: Oh?

870
00:38:34,804 --> 00:38:38,524
Speaker 5: Man, I don't know, it's weird.

871
00:38:38,564 --> 00:38:41,244
Speaker 4: I just never wanted to think that much about that

872
00:38:41,324 --> 00:38:44,204
Speaker 4: kind of stuff, Like, you know, I don't know, it

873
00:38:44,324 --> 00:38:45,924
Speaker 4: just wasn't me. Like I didn't like all that that

874
00:38:46,644 --> 00:38:49,644
Speaker 4: the attention about it and and the pomp and.

875
00:38:49,684 --> 00:38:50,884
Speaker 5: Circumstance of it and all.

876
00:38:51,204 --> 00:38:53,164
Speaker 4: I don't know that that's you know, Look, Kristin Bicknell

877
00:38:53,204 --> 00:38:56,124
Speaker 4: is probably gonna like win a bunch more money like

878
00:38:56,164 --> 00:38:59,924
Speaker 4: this year, or she's gonna overtake that spot, and then

879
00:38:59,964 --> 00:39:03,284
Speaker 4: I'll just be some random husband. You know, I don't

880
00:39:03,324 --> 00:39:04,204
Speaker 4: think that'll be good.

881
00:39:04,324 --> 00:39:07,244
Speaker 3: No, you'll be the You'll be the deuce five into

882
00:39:07,244 --> 00:39:10,724
Speaker 3: ass never Never Never, the random houseband, you know, the

883
00:39:11,404 --> 00:39:11,804
Speaker 3: go ahead.

884
00:39:11,884 --> 00:39:13,924
Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh, I was just gonna say, I do feel

885
00:39:13,924 --> 00:39:15,604
Speaker 4: like I'm in a spot where, like for a few years,

886
00:39:15,604 --> 00:39:17,204
Speaker 4: I felt like I want nothing to do with this game,

887
00:39:17,244 --> 00:39:19,644
Speaker 4: and I find myself like coming around like realite, remembering

888
00:39:19,644 --> 00:39:21,564
Speaker 4: why I love the game. Like, you know, I really

889
00:39:21,564 --> 00:39:24,164
Speaker 4: had like a love hate relationship followed by like a

890
00:39:24,204 --> 00:39:26,524
Speaker 4: hate hate relationship with it towards the end, Like you know,

891
00:39:26,564 --> 00:39:28,724
Speaker 4: we would hang out and you'd be like my friends

892
00:39:28,804 --> 00:39:30,204
Speaker 4: at the end of my burger, hear my friends be like,

893
00:39:30,244 --> 00:39:31,684
Speaker 4: so we're gonna go play the tournament. I'm like, now,

894
00:39:32,004 --> 00:39:33,884
Speaker 4: I'll see it later, let me know any bus you know.

895
00:39:34,404 --> 00:39:37,524
Speaker 4: But but now I feel like whenever I'm playing, I'm

896
00:39:37,524 --> 00:39:40,884
Speaker 4: having fun again, and I don't feel like burdened by

897
00:39:40,924 --> 00:39:43,484
Speaker 4: all of the different stuff that came that came with

898
00:39:43,564 --> 00:39:47,044
Speaker 4: the I don't know, so so I enjoy playing again.

899
00:39:47,084 --> 00:39:50,124
Speaker 2: If you're at a random dinner party, you don't know

900
00:39:50,164 --> 00:39:53,524
Speaker 2: somebody is super well, right, was it more awkward to

901
00:39:53,524 --> 00:39:55,404
Speaker 2: introduce yourself as a poker player or as a hedge

902
00:39:55,404 --> 00:39:56,684
Speaker 2: fund employee?

903
00:39:57,604 --> 00:39:57,924
Speaker 5: Rhenda.

904
00:39:58,004 --> 00:40:00,924
Speaker 4: Actually, my wife has this funny joke because I used

905
00:40:00,924 --> 00:40:03,524
Speaker 4: to go around, you know, and people would talk about

906
00:40:03,524 --> 00:40:04,724
Speaker 4: it all the time, and I was used to getting

907
00:40:04,724 --> 00:40:06,884
Speaker 4: all this attention and stuff, so I'd just be like, oh, like,

908
00:40:06,964 --> 00:40:09,564
Speaker 4: you know whatever, I play poker, you know, and I

909
00:40:09,604 --> 00:40:12,044
Speaker 4: would try to try to change the subject. And now

910
00:40:12,084 --> 00:40:13,844
Speaker 4: I like go out to people and I'm like, they're like,

911
00:40:13,844 --> 00:40:16,244
Speaker 4: what are you doing. I'm like, I'm in I'm a trader,

912
00:40:16,444 --> 00:40:18,364
Speaker 4: like in finance, and they just like look around. But

913
00:40:18,364 --> 00:40:21,204
Speaker 4: I used to be a poker player so bored by

914
00:40:21,204 --> 00:40:23,324
Speaker 4: the time I finish the sentence, and I'm like, no, no, no,

915
00:40:23,484 --> 00:40:27,604
Speaker 4: I swear to god, I'm a little more interesting. So

916
00:40:27,644 --> 00:40:29,204
Speaker 4: the grass is always greener, I guess.

917
00:40:29,444 --> 00:40:31,844
Speaker 3: So so what's next for you? What does the future hold

918
00:40:31,884 --> 00:40:33,524
Speaker 3: for Vanessa?

919
00:40:33,964 --> 00:40:36,164
Speaker 4: I don't know what is I mean, who knows really?

920
00:40:36,644 --> 00:40:38,884
Speaker 4: I mean, I love my job, so hopefully I'll do

921
00:40:38,884 --> 00:40:41,004
Speaker 4: that for a little while at least.

922
00:40:41,364 --> 00:40:43,564
Speaker 5: And kind of play it by year.

923
00:40:43,604 --> 00:40:49,164
Speaker 4: Honestly, I don't see myself like reinventing myself again, but

924
00:40:49,164 --> 00:40:53,124
Speaker 4: but I think some combination of trading poker hobbies, spend

925
00:40:53,124 --> 00:40:55,404
Speaker 4: time with the kids. Like, you know, my kids are

926
00:40:55,484 --> 00:40:58,044
Speaker 4: really fun age they're almost five and almost.

927
00:40:58,164 --> 00:40:59,804
Speaker 3: Time time to start them playing poker.

928
00:41:00,204 --> 00:41:03,404
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, No, it really is my older one.

929
00:41:03,444 --> 00:41:06,724
Speaker 4: Felix's friend is really into poker, and so I keep

930
00:41:06,764 --> 00:41:08,364
Speaker 4: trying to be like, let's go over to Clark's house

931
00:41:08,364 --> 00:41:12,764
Speaker 4: and like, let's go play poker. But yeah, so some

932
00:41:12,884 --> 00:41:16,404
Speaker 4: combination of that stuff. Like I think probably my guess

933
00:41:16,444 --> 00:41:19,764
Speaker 4: is like when I'm retired or something and maybe who knows,

934
00:41:19,764 --> 00:41:22,964
Speaker 4: ten years or ten fifteen years, like just poker much

935
00:41:23,004 --> 00:41:25,084
Speaker 4: more recreationally. You know, I'll have to get you guys

936
00:41:25,084 --> 00:41:26,884
Speaker 4: to like start a regular home game.

937
00:41:27,604 --> 00:41:30,964
Speaker 3: That will be fun. Well, We'll make the hardest, hardest

938
00:41:30,964 --> 00:41:31,604
Speaker 3: home game.

939
00:41:31,444 --> 00:41:35,644
Speaker 2: In the senior poker It will be fun.

940
00:41:35,684 --> 00:41:39,684
Speaker 3: Well, Vanessa, this has been such an absolute pleasure. I

941
00:41:39,724 --> 00:41:42,484
Speaker 3: am so glad that Eric introduced us and that I

942
00:41:42,524 --> 00:41:45,284
Speaker 3: got to meet you, and I don't know, you know,

943
00:41:45,564 --> 00:41:48,284
Speaker 3: I think you have made my life richer and I

944
00:41:48,324 --> 00:41:50,364
Speaker 3: hope that all of our listeners will have learned something

945
00:41:50,404 --> 00:41:52,004
Speaker 3: from listening to you today.

946
00:41:52,124 --> 00:41:54,324
Speaker 5: Thank you well, Thank you guys so much for thank

947
00:41:54,324 --> 00:41:54,644
Speaker 5: you so much.

948
00:41:55,004 --> 00:42:07,804
Speaker 6: We appreciate you spending this time with us.

949
00:42:08,244 --> 00:42:10,044
Speaker 3: Let us know what you think of the sho reach

950
00:42:10,084 --> 00:42:13,844
Speaker 3: out to us at Risky Business at Pushkin dot FM

951
00:42:14,004 --> 00:42:16,964
Speaker 3: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova and.

952
00:42:17,044 --> 00:42:19,964
Speaker 2: By me Nate Silver. The show was a Cool production

953
00:42:20,004 --> 00:42:23,684
Speaker 2: of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced by

954
00:42:23,684 --> 00:42:28,204
Speaker 2: Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia, Jean

955
00:42:28,284 --> 00:42:31,364
Speaker 2: Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our executive

956
00:42:31,364 --> 00:42:34,764
Speaker 2: producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Brugerer.

957
00:42:35,324 --> 00:42:37,564
Speaker 3: If you like the show, please rate and review us

958
00:42:37,564 --> 00:42:40,204
Speaker 3: so other people can find us too, But once again,

959
00:42:40,364 --> 00:42:42,164
Speaker 3: only if you like us. We don't want those bad

960
00:42:42,204 --> 00:42:44,364
Speaker 3: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.