Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noel.
Speaker 3: They call me Ben.
Speaker 4: We are joined as always with our super producer Andrew
Speaker 4: Treforce Howard. Most importantly, you are you. You are here.
Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Folks,
Speaker 4: we are at the end of the calendar year of
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four. A lot of people are dealing with
Speaker 4: love hard won, love heard lost, and it's often said
Speaker 4: the course at true love never did run smooth? Make
Speaker 4: that up?
Speaker 3: That shakes man.
Speaker 5: He's no slouch. Sorry, maybe he didn't make it up either.
Speaker 5: Isn't there a whole thing that maybe he didn't write
Speaker 5: any of his own stuff.
Speaker 3: I think that's been pretty well debunked though.
Speaker 4: Right we have an episode on that as well. But
Speaker 4: it's something everybody can agree with, Noel. It's one of
Speaker 4: the few consistent patterns across all of humanity's strange experiment.
Speaker 4: You know, most of us tuning in tonight have at
Speaker 4: one point or another sadly encountered heartbreak. And it's it's
Speaker 4: weird to think about how privileged we are here in
Speaker 4: the modern age because back in the day, romance, like
Speaker 4: the person you would spend your life with, it was
Speaker 4: primarily decided by your physical and socioeconomic proximity.
Speaker 3: Oh, things have changed.
Speaker 2: Not not well in your family, right, They just say, wow,
Speaker 2: that's this other family. It's going to be strategic for us,
Speaker 2: So you're going to take one for the team.
Speaker 5: It's interesting though, like you know, in terms of things
Speaker 5: one might google like how to make a million dollars
Speaker 5: and how to fall in love or probably on equal
Speaker 5: footings in terms of things that there is no magic
Speaker 5: answer for.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And to Matt's earlier point, that was still an
Speaker 4: improvement based on the previous stuff, which was, Hey, I
Speaker 4: know this is technically your cousin, and I know there
Speaker 4: are some recessive traits, but the Habsburg Empire must continue.
Speaker 2: Yes, and there's some land acquisitions that are tied to
Speaker 2: the soul nuptial thing.
Speaker 3: So huge tracks of land, yes, huge tracks of land.
Speaker 4: That's what I think is amazing about him or her.
Speaker 4: They're huge tracts of lands. So nowadays across the world.
Speaker 4: As you know, fellow conspiracy realist, more and more people
Speaker 4: are turning to technology in the eternal search for affection
Speaker 4: for love. In a very short span of time, dating
Speaker 4: apps and services have exploded. Some people hate it, some
Speaker 4: people love it. Tonight is not about dating advice, but
Speaker 4: if we could, you guys, in case this ends up
Speaker 4: being a two parter, could we recommend some dating applications
Speaker 4: for people well.
Speaker 3: In terms of hating it or loving it.
Speaker 5: It really just has kind of become an inevitable reality.
Speaker 5: It's kind of the way a lot of people, mean,
Speaker 5: young people coming up. It just seems like this is
Speaker 5: just how it's done. I met some people in the
Speaker 5: past through Bumble. In the early days, I used Tender,
Speaker 5: but then, like you know, different apps start to get
Speaker 5: different reputations. Tenders become like something more of like a
Speaker 5: hookup kind of market show, and Bumble is maybe more
Speaker 5: for like older folks or middle aged folks.
Speaker 3: And I think the big one is Hinge these days.
Speaker 2: I've heard tell of Hinge. I've seen that's the only
Speaker 2: one I've seen actually looked at. I've never seen anybody
Speaker 2: open Tinder on their phone and like look through it.
Speaker 2: Or have downloaded it or any of those. It's weird.
Speaker 2: I need to need to get on that. The only
Speaker 2: one I know of is Lumberjack Dating dot Com, which
Speaker 2: uh sure, I haven't actually used it. I just went
Speaker 2: to their website and it says ready to meet a
Speaker 2: genuine lumberjack who knows how to treat a woman.
Speaker 4: Hey this baby or year, Matt.
Speaker 5: I mean you got to have a certain circumference of
Speaker 5: bicap to even qualify though.
Speaker 4: If I'm not, that's the right shout out to Paul
Speaker 4: Bunyan xx six x X. Also, I'd like to highly
Speaker 4: recommend Night Walk. It does not have any of the vowels.
Speaker 4: You'll find it if you need it.
Speaker 3: Is that your your app Ben, that your that you've piloted.
Speaker 4: No comments.
Speaker 5: That sounds so safe, guys. Can I just say though,
Speaker 5: that Paul Bunyan bit of a babe.
Speaker 4: You're thinking a bit of Babe the Blue walks.
Speaker 3: That's right, That's right. It was. It's an online dating joke.
Speaker 4: So do check out Babe the Blue Ox available now
Speaker 4: wherever you find your favorite applications. Listen, what we're telling
Speaker 4: you is there is a conspiracy afoot with all this
Speaker 4: dating Shenanigan, Rea online.
Speaker 2: And we're going to tell you all about it after
Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 4: Here are the facts. First, let's define online dating. It's
Speaker 4: an umbrella term for, as you can tell, folks a
Speaker 4: wide range of services. They specialize in any number of preferences, demographics, ages, incomes,
Speaker 4: personal situations, occupations. One thing that's interesting I would say
Speaker 4: about dating apps in the modern era is that it
Speaker 4: is can completely okay on a dating app to say
Speaker 4: I only prefer a certain demographic of people.
Speaker 5: Sort of the whole point, right, It's like a feature,
Speaker 5: not a bug. It's kind of the thing that differentiates
Speaker 5: some of the apps from one another.
Speaker 4: You're not a lumberjack GTFO. Oh you're not a farmer.
Speaker 4: This is farmer's only.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it is weird too, pulling up the rude
Speaker 3: begas get out of town.
Speaker 2: And as we're going to discuss in the episode, that
Speaker 2: kind of set of circumstances, using an algorithm to match
Speaker 2: the user with their preferences ends up getting spun and
Speaker 2: turned around and flipped. So now it's just who are you?
Speaker 2: Who are you? And what will people like about you?
Speaker 2: And then it just it gets tangled up in itself
Speaker 2: really quickly.
Speaker 4: Guys, it's everything you hate about dating in real life
Speaker 4: and everything you hate about auditioning in real life, and
Speaker 4: so now you can have them together, and it's everything
Speaker 4: you hate about social media. Whatever specializations these services may
Speaker 4: focus on, they have one thing in common. They require
Speaker 4: the Internet to function. Fifty years ago, this sounded bonkers, right,
Speaker 4: this sounded absolutely nuts. Can you imagine you, guys have ancestors.
Speaker 4: Can you imagine going back in time to your ancestors
Speaker 4: and attempting to explain tender what would you say?
Speaker 5: They'd probably kill you, kill me dead on site, at least,
Speaker 5: you know, once I, once I started speaking, I think
Speaker 5: it was witchcraft.
Speaker 2: You'd have to start by explaining, like what a classified
Speaker 2: ad is, because they might understand a newspaper or you know,
Speaker 2: something like that. Maybe not, maybe you'd have to explain
Speaker 2: the newspaper then classified ad. Then Now imagine if you
Speaker 2: did this on.
Speaker 5: Mass how far back I guess I'm picturing I guess
Speaker 5: so I'm saying, I guess I'm picturing ancients. Very difficult conversation,
Speaker 5: but you know your results may vary depending on how
Speaker 5: far back you go.
Speaker 4: To Ben's point, well, like how far back do you go?
Speaker 4: You know, you go far enough back, and you're saying, hey,
Speaker 4: did you ever wonder if those Neanderthals over in the
Speaker 4: next horizon are cool? Did you ever think about, you know,
Speaker 4: cuddling up. We're gonna leave that there.
Speaker 5: But also, I mean the question also then kind of
Speaker 5: begins to surround the nature of partnership and the nature
Speaker 5: of like what is someone looking for? In the olden days,
Speaker 5: it would have been, to your earlier points that both
Speaker 5: of you fellas much more about acquisition, about land, about family,
Speaker 5: about tying into a dynasty your wife and child, oh well,
Speaker 5: of course. And then further back than that it would
Speaker 5: have been more about protection, you know, and about this
Speaker 5: kind of almost tribalism as opposed to you know, who
Speaker 5: was going to be the big spoon?
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, yeah. Yeah. As we said in previous evenings,
Speaker 4: the escalation of human society is best portrayed as this.
Speaker 4: One you have the family, right, everybody's related. Two you
Speaker 4: have the tribe, everybody has this common interest. Three you
Speaker 4: have the religion. Four you have the state, Five you
Speaker 4: have the company right, and maybe six you have the
Speaker 4: galaxy or the solar system dream galaxy brand yeah, so
Speaker 4: you're absolutely right. No, in terms of the modern day,
Speaker 4: right now, people seem to be in the West, I
Speaker 4: wouldn't say rejecting, but perhaps interrogating traditional social norms, romantic norms.
Speaker 4: The US Census Bureau found in twenty twenty three that
Speaker 4: in their estimation, nearly fifty percent of the US population
Speaker 4: forty seven percent, they said, considers itself single. The data
Speaker 4: doesn't always agree. It makes me think there were a
Speaker 4: couple folks maybe putting themselves as single with someone at
Speaker 4: home who would have a problem with that. It's complicated, Yeah,
Speaker 4: shout out Facebook.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, must we The.
Speaker 4: Few research centers says that three and ten Americans are
Speaker 4: single either way you slice it historically, that's a lot
Speaker 4: of people, right.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, I believe that forty seven percent consists of
Speaker 3: just over one hundred and seventeen million people in the
Speaker 3: United States that consider themselves single. Slash.
Speaker 4: It's complicated, Yeah, single slash. It's complicated. Working it out.
Speaker 4: Here's the sad truth that we have to admit a
Speaker 4: lot of folks right now who are listening this evening
Speaker 4: are single and perhaps maybe not happy with that.
Speaker 3: They may want to.
Speaker 4: Be booed up or cuffed. As hip Hop says. This
Speaker 4: is where the statistics show us the popularity of dating apps.
Speaker 4: In the United States alone, nearly again three and ten
Speaker 4: US adults used a dating site or app, and more
Speaker 4: than forty percent of people interviewed. They state that online
Speaker 4: dating has made dating easier. Now you don't just have
Speaker 4: to rock up at an art show, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean. Now you don't just have to pretend that
Speaker 4: you're at that tree planting or soup kitchen or museum
Speaker 4: every day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just say, hey, you're cool, we matched be
Speaker 2: at my house at ten.
Speaker 4: Flighte whoa super.
Speaker 2: Lightt mess I get. Look this, I have no experience
Speaker 2: with it. That's what I've been hearing through several of
Speaker 2: the sources we were looking at today that it just
Speaker 2: becomes at times because there are so many human beings
Speaker 2: out there, it's like you gotta just meet who you
Speaker 2: can and see if.
Speaker 3: And you know, being a dude as well.
Speaker 5: Like I've navigated through multiple of these and I've met
Speaker 5: some people that were great and some people that were awful.
Speaker 5: But there is some comfort in knowing that if you're
Speaker 5: there for the same reason, you're not gonna accidentally put
Speaker 5: your foot in your mouth, or you know, even worse,
Speaker 5: get the wrong idea and have someone think you're being
Speaker 5: a creep because you know what the stakes are, you
Speaker 5: know what the score is.
Speaker 3: You're both there for the same reason.
Speaker 5: Not to say that there aren't tons of creeps on
Speaker 5: these online dating sites, but that was sort of a
Speaker 5: selling point for me, was that it took some of
Speaker 5: that that's unknown out of the equation because I am just,
Speaker 5: you know, extra concerned about anyone thinking that I have
Speaker 5: any intention other than you.
Speaker 2: Know, normal wace is that the I guess it. We'll
Speaker 2: talk about it varies by the app, like what the
Speaker 2: app sells itself as what you will be selling yourself
Speaker 2: as when you use the app, right, but I guess
Speaker 2: yeah there, and they call those the hookup apps versus
Speaker 2: some of the other ones that we'll get into.
Speaker 5: Well, I just mean like, if you're matching with somebody,
Speaker 5: you know that you're in an early kind of getting
Speaker 5: to know you phase, as opposed to having to rock
Speaker 5: up to Ben's point, to somebody at an art show
Speaker 5: or a bar and feel like you're, you know, peeing
Speaker 5: in the wind for lack of a better term.
Speaker 4: Well, what we're really talking about there, gentlemen, is the
Speaker 4: concept of information asymmetry. To your point, Noel, knowing what
Speaker 4: is expected by both parties, what is informed consent? Yes,
Speaker 4: that can be a huge win, and there are quite
Speaker 4: a few deep economic structures at play. We do know
Speaker 4: that it appears the Western world for a while for
Speaker 4: super dug they superl liked dating apps. They swiped right
Speaker 4: on that stuff because in twenty twenty three in the
Speaker 4: United States alone, for people in the dating market in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three in the United States, when asked their
Speaker 4: preferential milieu or medium for meeting a partner, thirty two
Speaker 4: percent said I'm going to meet them at a concert
Speaker 4: or a festival, which I take to mean some sort
Speaker 4: of social event. Thirty three percent said I want to
Speaker 4: be connected via a friend, a known trusted entity. To
Speaker 4: your earlier point, let's grade down on that information asymmetry
Speaker 4: if we can. Here's number one with a bullet. Forty
Speaker 4: two percent said online dating apps. That's where I get
Speaker 4: my kicks.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, And with that, we're going to take a
Speaker 2: quick break. Hear a word from our sponsors and we'll
Speaker 2: be right back with more. And we've returned.
Speaker 3: So where did this all begin.
Speaker 5: I mean, we certainly know, you know, things like the
Speaker 5: personals ads and sort of more historical predecessors to online dating. Right,
Speaker 5: these actually date pretty far back, but not maybe as
Speaker 5: far back as I might have thought. To the late
Speaker 5: fifties and early sixties. Stanford students Jim Harvey and Phil
Speaker 5: Filer used a questionnaire and an very whole school probably
Speaker 5: incredibly large IBM six fifty computer to match up forty
Speaker 5: nine men and forty nine women.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, picture the transistors, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: And they they hit a good Vin diagram on forty
Speaker 4: nine C and forty nine B or whatever, and then
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, the transistors burst like like you're
Speaker 4: creating Frankens. We've gone to match.
Speaker 3: It's a love I can never forget guys.
Speaker 5: When we all went to Vegas together and we were
Speaker 5: just obsessed with that Frankenstein slot machine.
Speaker 3: That that voice rings in my head constantly. It's alive,
Speaker 3: It's alive. Sorry, unrelated, but you triggered me there.
Speaker 2: Ben lost a lot of money on that thing, do
Speaker 2: you guys remember? Greater great expectations or greater expectations is
Speaker 2: the VHS dating SNL spoof? Right, Lle was that Chappelle.
Speaker 5: I don't know exactly where it came from, but I
Speaker 5: definitely remember the little theme tune for sure.
Speaker 2: The real thing was called Great Expectations, and it was
Speaker 2: like VHS dating very eighties sign up. But because like
Speaker 2: how I kept trying to imagine, like how the heck
Speaker 2: would you actually get a hold of the VHS tapes
Speaker 2: of all the people that are going on aagistics.
Speaker 4: Also, it's self selecting at that point for people with
Speaker 4: access to certain kinds of technology, which we'll see as
Speaker 4: even crooked, which is a word I made up. It's
Speaker 4: American emlash. I'm still learning it.
Speaker 5: Tuned into an upcoming episode of Ridiculous History to find
Speaker 5: out more on the history of.
Speaker 4: American My gosh, who buddy, So, I would say, our
Speaker 4: collective favorite example of early technology or you know, computer
Speaker 4: technology beating the Long Road to love is a guy
Speaker 4: named Ed Lewis back in nineteen sixty three. This guy
Speaker 4: also got a pretty old IBM computer. It was new
Speaker 4: at his time, and he made a questionnaire and it
Speaker 4: was entirely so that he could quote optimize the meeting
Speaker 4: potential at dances for himself.
Speaker 5: That's fun, nothing weird, you know, what's funny about that,
Speaker 5: Ben is I was just recently thinking about the old
Speaker 5: expression I don't have room on my dance card, to
Speaker 5: which I kind of looked that up, and that was
Speaker 5: a thing man there was like, you know, women dances,
Speaker 5: social gatherings or whatever, would have this thing that has
Speaker 5: resembled like the little ticket you'd find at the inside
Speaker 5: of a library book, and you would kind of schedule
Speaker 5: the boys that you were gonna cut a rug with,
Speaker 5: and that you could say if you didn't want to
Speaker 5: do something or didn't want to dance, you say, I'm sorry,
Speaker 5: I don't have room on my dance card, which is
Speaker 5: where that expression comes from, for like not having time
Speaker 5: to do something with somebody.
Speaker 4: Wow, amazing, And it's weird because we don't have dance cards.
Speaker 4: Now we should get them.
Speaker 5: We don't have dances, we should dance, so we should
Speaker 5: we should take take Maud's advice.
Speaker 2: From Harold and Maud, it's a really interesting point. I
Speaker 2: don't want to jump ahead with it, but it reminds
Speaker 2: me of the Atlantic article that I think we all
Speaker 2: read for this that was talking about the difficulty of
Speaker 2: getting women to use these apps. Again, we're gonna have
Speaker 2: to talk about it in a moment, but thinking about
Speaker 2: the dance card as a thing where and maybe I'm
Speaker 2: wrong here, correct me, guys, But in my mind, the
Speaker 2: historically it's often been, often not always been males chasing
Speaker 2: after a female is in like, I'm going to pursue
Speaker 2: that pretty lady and I will attempt to date.
Speaker 3: That she will be mine, oh yes, or it will
Speaker 3: be mine.
Speaker 2: Or in this case, I will dance with her. I
Speaker 2: want to dance with her. But oh, and then it
Speaker 2: is in the woman's position to say no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 5: But also the stakes were so much higher back then.
Speaker 5: If you got on that dance card, you might have
Speaker 5: a one out of ten shot of marrying that gal.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 4: I mean, well, sure courtship. What we used to say
Speaker 4: back in I guess we call it the eighteen hundreds
Speaker 4: is a man pursues a woman until she catches him
Speaker 4: fair enough. This is obviously not a thing that has
Speaker 4: aged well. But I think what you're proposing here, Matt,
Speaker 4: is a sort of Newtonian association right of chaser and chase. Right,
Speaker 4: one must be one or the other. And we see
Speaker 4: that this is to your point, Noll a function of
Speaker 4: the economic and survival realities, the situation, the environment at
Speaker 4: the time. Over, if we go back to ED in
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty three, spoiler worked out, but not the way
Speaker 4: he wanted. Over the next few decades, we see this
Speaker 4: continuing trend of computer assisted questionnaires. Now you don't have
Speaker 4: to just publish a classified advertisement. Now you don't have
Speaker 4: to just say, you know, mail eight hundred and seventy
Speaker 4: three years old in tonight walks looking for interesting company.
Speaker 4: Now you can just say you tell me, you can
Speaker 4: put the onus on the person that you want to meet.
Speaker 4: You can say, give give me your answers for this
Speaker 4: sort of stuff. And at the same time we see
Speaker 4: the rise of things like mail order brides to your
Speaker 4: earlier point, we see video dating services. In the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 4: we see the rise of dating what are they called BBS's.
Speaker 5: Well message boards right or well yeah, but like physical right,
Speaker 5: they would have been actual.
Speaker 3: There was no Internet yet, right, this is not online.
Speaker 4: No, they got out there. There were early.
Speaker 5: Early versions of subscription based kind of almost like newsgroup
Speaker 5: kind of situations, very early Internet, that makes sense.
Speaker 4: And then you get the first modern dating site, by
Speaker 4: which we mean a website built entirely to get people together.
Speaker 4: It's called kiss dot com. In a burst of creativity,
Speaker 4: it hits the net in nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 3: Surprised Kiss the Band didn't have that lockdown already.
Speaker 4: Where were you.
Speaker 5: G he's a vase, very litigious too. I don't know
Speaker 5: if you he's usually on the top of that I
Speaker 5: would have thought. I mean, I'm surprised we haven't read
Speaker 5: some sort of lawsuit kerfuffle with kiss dot com against
Speaker 5: the Kiss or the Kiss organization.
Speaker 4: You guys, let's check it out right now. Kiss dot
Speaker 4: com just says kiss dot com see photos of singles
Speaker 4: near you. Oh, and there's a button that says match and.
Speaker 3: Then it takes you to match.
Speaker 5: Maybe you got the vintage landing page with nothing on
Speaker 5: it other than a link out to the modern version.
Speaker 4: So fast forward a little bit.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: We know that yid y id dot com launched in
Speaker 4: South Africa just shortly after Kiss dot com, and yid
Speaker 4: dot com was a specifically Jewish dating site. Other countries,
Speaker 4: other demographics followed.
Speaker 3: Suit.
Speaker 4: The world knew there was this crazy horizon ahead. Investors
Speaker 4: knew there was a crazy horizon ahead, and dating platforms
Speaker 4: only grew more and more and more popular. The real
Speaker 4: thing that changed the game.
Speaker 2: Aim was a message sorry sorry. That's what changed the
Speaker 2: game for me. That's how I've ended up meeting a
Speaker 2: bunch of people.
Speaker 5: Online in flirtation machine and random chat rooms.
Speaker 4: What's your asl bro?
Speaker 2: Uh oh that People ask me that all the time,
Speaker 2: and I pretend like I was a twenty year old.
Speaker 2: And then I remember just being like feeling, I like,
Speaker 2: I was so cool because I could talk to people.
Speaker 5: So you were like in your teens, but you were pretending, liked,
Speaker 5: pretend to be older.
Speaker 2: Everybody my age, our age, was in middle school just
Speaker 2: acting on the internet like they're everybody and anybody, just
Speaker 2: to be weird with it, I think, and we were
Speaker 2: trying to figure out stuff.
Speaker 3: It was full school.
Speaker 4: It was so much fun and weird, the humans gregarious.
Speaker 4: It's neat to talk to strangers.
Speaker 2: It didn't feel scary at all until we realized it
Speaker 2: was terrifying.
Speaker 5: What you're describing is pretty, you know, charming and naive
Speaker 5: pretend to being at middle school.
Speaker 3: I pretending to be older.
Speaker 5: But what of course ended up happening was old people
Speaker 5: pretending to be middle schoolers.
Speaker 3: And that's where it kids gross exact.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that continues today. So the seeds of the
Speaker 4: evil trees were planted long ago. If we go past
Speaker 4: aim Messenger to the early two thousand's twenty ten's, the
Speaker 4: revolution is the smartphone. We have a thing called Grinder,
Speaker 4: which was very forward facing for its time, not just
Speaker 4: because it was designed for the LGBTQ plus community, but
Speaker 4: also because they took the E out of the word
Speaker 4: you know, So now it's they kind of set the
Speaker 4: tread on that one.
Speaker 5: One hundred percent, I mean, and again, like you know,
Speaker 5: it's not something that I've experienced directly, but that's another
Speaker 5: app that part of its selling point is almost like
Speaker 5: very quick geolocation of people who just want to hook up.
Speaker 5: It is largely looked at, by my understanding, to be
Speaker 5: less of a long term meeting my soulmate kind of
Speaker 5: app and more of like a casual kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And one of the major I would say revolutions
Speaker 2: moving away from a laptop or desktop back in the
Speaker 2: day largely to the phone, like that is that you're
Speaker 2: mobile using this thing, so you're not at home talking
Speaker 2: to somebody. You're now at the club or you are
Speaker 2: you know, at a restaurant and you can open your
Speaker 2: app and see who's nearness.
Speaker 4: Yeah to the earlier statement there, you know, dating pre
Speaker 4: technology or technological innovation was requisite on socioeconomic or physical proximity.
Speaker 4: And to your point, Matt, now with your proximity visible
Speaker 4: and approachable, now you can see whomever is near you
Speaker 4: wherever you may go.
Speaker 5: And to me, that, to my understanding, that is a
Speaker 5: pretty I'm sure there are others you know that have
Speaker 5: this feature, but that's a pretty Grinder specific kind of thing.
Speaker 5: Whereas you know, if you have an app like Tender
Speaker 5: or Bumble or Hinge or whatever you might put in,
Speaker 5: I only want matches with people that live within thirty
Speaker 5: miles of me, you know, but you're not going to
Speaker 5: see them as a blip on a map where you
Speaker 5: can walk right.
Speaker 3: Up to them.
Speaker 5: That would be considered privileged information and you do not
Speaker 5: want to give that kind of information out unless you
Speaker 5: are ready to meet somebody in person, and usually then
Speaker 5: you meet it like I mutually agreed upon kind of
Speaker 5: public place. But Grinder is very specifically I think geo centric.
Speaker 5: That's very real time data driven.
Speaker 4: Which requires yeah, as you said, Noll, the data and
Speaker 4: you know folks, it may be a bummer to say
Speaker 4: the love of my life is in me and mar
Speaker 4: I will never meet them because I don't have my
Speaker 4: settings correct. We have to understand that the appearance of
Speaker 4: Tender in twenty twelve reshape the landscape because a gamified
Speaker 4: sex and love you swipe right to like you, swipe
Speaker 4: left to pass. For a while, this was a free action.
Speaker 4: I'm sure it continues now. I have never dated online.
Speaker 4: I meet you know, I mean, my lover's the old
Speaker 4: school way getting deported suddenly finding finding finding a date
Speaker 4: becomes more like playing a game or taking a survey.
Speaker 4: Then it becomes like meeting someone and knowing them. It's
Speaker 4: a weird, weird audition process to put.
Speaker 5: People in and it really does kind of in many ways,
Speaker 5: cheapen the experience. You know, it can sort of like
Speaker 5: make you a little bit jaded when everything is just
Speaker 5: a picture that you are swiping. It is a pretty
Speaker 5: surface level kind of exercise, you know, for the most part.
Speaker 2: And with the advent of Tinder, what you also begin
Speaker 2: to see. And again only with hindsight do we realize this,
Speaker 2: but we all anyone who is using Tender, who began
Speaker 2: that process started to see that there is an endless
Speaker 2: stream of individuals out there. So you now get you
Speaker 2: start to get into the problem of well, if I
Speaker 2: swipe right on that person, I might be missing the next,
Speaker 2: you know, person that I really want to date, or
Speaker 2: I really would match with her I think would be
Speaker 2: super sexy. Yeah, if I'd swipe right on that, maybe
Speaker 2: I'm I'm screwing up. I should just swipe left until
Speaker 2: I find the perfect one.
Speaker 4: I only got so many swipes. What am I gonna do?
Speaker 4: Pay this app?
Speaker 5: The app says, Yeah, that's gamified as well, because like
Speaker 5: a lot of like quote unquote free games, you know,
Speaker 5: phone apps, there are in app purchases you can you
Speaker 5: gotta buy more hearts or in game currency or whatever,
Speaker 5: and like in tender, you can get buy the super
Speaker 5: swipe again the things that things that obviously changed. I'm
Speaker 5: sure I have since I'm that's with it. But all
Speaker 5: you do run up against you know, you've run out
Speaker 5: of swipes and you have to wait, or you could
Speaker 5: pay X number of dollars an upgrade to the premium version.
Speaker 4: The freemium model, yes, which we'll get to. The thing
Speaker 4: is there is little to no stigma attached to online
Speaker 4: dating today. You know, not too long ago it was
Speaker 4: considered somehow inappropriate to meet someone through a classified advertisement
Speaker 4: in print, and some of us in the audience tonight
Speaker 4: realize how recent that was. Dating online is a normalized
Speaker 4: tool nowadays a lot of people have met for casual
Speaker 4: flings or they've found themselves in lifelong, committed, happy relationships
Speaker 4: having issue I mean by which I mean creating children.
Speaker 4: Last year, the boffins at Pew Research found get this,
Speaker 4: I think this is an amazing statistic. One inten partnered
Speaker 4: adults people are married, living with a partner, or in
Speaker 4: a committed romantic relationship. One in ten of those folks
Speaker 4: met their current partner through a dating site or through
Speaker 4: an app. So those are good results.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I met my current partner through a
Speaker 5: dating app, no question about it. And the previous couple
Speaker 5: that I've had before that again varying degrees of success.
Speaker 5: Obviously I'm not with them anymore, but some of them
Speaker 5: were fine relationships I met through those apps as well,
Speaker 5: So I'm very much part of that demographic.
Speaker 4: And obviously, folks, when we are saying something is normalized,
Speaker 4: we do not mean it is above criticism. This new
Speaker 4: genre of romance has garnered tons of controversy, plenty of complaints,
Speaker 4: a couple of heinous crimes, and countless broken hearts along
Speaker 4: the way. But the deal is, the need is too great.
Speaker 4: Some people would pay anything for the promise of true
Speaker 4: love and the money, oh, the money, you guys. The
Speaker 4: profit potential that is likewise too great for the companies
Speaker 4: to ignore. Every dating app is swiping right on profit potential.
Speaker 4: Morgan Stanley found dating app users who go to what
Speaker 4: you're saying, no, they cross the rubicon of freemium to pay.
Speaker 4: They end up spending between eighteen and nineteen US dollars
Speaker 4: per month on subscriptions or one off purchases.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is very odd to imagine that every one
Speaker 2: of these dating sites, dating apps, whatever they are, start
Speaker 2: as free, and especially Tinder if you think about its origins,
Speaker 2: fully free for years until company realized, oh, we actually
Speaker 2: need to be profitable. At some point, we're moving out
Speaker 2: of a venture capital stage and into the we're going
Speaker 2: to go public, so now we need to have a revenue.
Speaker 5: Because I know a lot of those things that you
Speaker 5: know when they pop like that too, they're just all
Speaker 5: about developing a user base. And they're not always thinking
Speaker 5: about the profit motive up front. We'll get to that,
Speaker 5: but first we have to get to a place where
Speaker 5: we have this unimpeachably massive user base.
Speaker 4: And this is what we are investigating this evening, folks,
Speaker 4: dating as a business romance, as a digital empire. We
Speaker 4: kid the not fellow conspiracy realist, there is a conspiracy afoot.
Speaker 5: Okay, let's take a quick pause in this chat about
Speaker 5: online dating. Here a word from our sponsors, and then
Speaker 5: come back with more.
Speaker 3: And we've returned.
Speaker 4: Here's where it gets crazy. What are we talking about?
Speaker 4: All right, let's just name guys. Let's name every dating
Speaker 4: app we know, just so we can all hear how
Speaker 4: very they appear to be. Maybe take a deep breath together,
Speaker 4: because I'm sure we got a lot to go through.
Speaker 3: Her hymns.
Speaker 2: No, that's that's that's yeah, Ashley mad O, Tender Tinder.
Speaker 3: We mentioned a lot of these already, Hinge, Okay, the.
Speaker 4: League Yeah, a's are b LK Hakuna pairs, et cetera,
Speaker 4: et cetera. Which is a thing I made up, but
Speaker 4: I think it's a good idea for a very lazy
Speaker 4: dating app. Just et cetera, et cetera. What are you into?
Speaker 4: What's your profile now?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: Coffee meets Bagel is one that I like the name of.
Speaker 5: And then you have like things like Jday, which has
Speaker 5: been around for a very long time that is again
Speaker 5: specifically for you know, people of the Jewish faith.
Speaker 3: Mm. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then you have Christian mingle is that one.
Speaker 3: Plenty of Fish, which I think is a Christian thing
Speaker 3: too because of the fish symbol or is it not? No,
Speaker 3: it's not oka. I always assume that it was.
Speaker 4: It's like plenty of fish, yes, but I guess I.
Speaker 3: Always assumed that. I don't know why I thought that
Speaker 3: the fish thing just just threw me interesting.
Speaker 4: Can you can you date citations of plenty of fish?
Speaker 4: That's unfair.
Speaker 3: They're mammals, I mean, and it's you know.
Speaker 5: I think the point of this list, including some made
Speaker 5: up ones, are to show just how specialized, uh and
Speaker 5: varied and seemingly completely different the apps in this massive
Speaker 5: world that is online dating can be.
Speaker 4: Right specialized across any number of variables, some more specialized
Speaker 4: than to others, each with their own unique reputation. You
Speaker 4: have a love of your life and mind, you will
Speaker 4: find that demographic on insert site here, welcome to et cetera,
Speaker 4: et cetera dot org. We're not. Ok yeah, right, well,
Speaker 4: that's why we can't get investors because of the profit.
Speaker 4: Most dating apps are ultimately owned by a single company.
Speaker 4: That's right, fellow conspiracy realist. There is one dating app
Speaker 4: to rule them, moll an Illuminati of online romance, a
Speaker 4: cable of digital dating. Can we get a drum roll?
Speaker 4: Tri force.
Speaker 5: Match dot Com Incorporate LLC.
Speaker 3: Incredibly Corporation.
Speaker 4: Yes, they're a bill litigious.
Speaker 2: And when we say most, let's let's give that listens
Speaker 2: tender hinge. Okay, but plenty of fish. The League metic
Speaker 2: asar or As are Chispa b LK, Hakuna Pears. There's uh,
Speaker 2: there's more. Well, no, I think that's it. I was
Speaker 2: on their website just a moment ago looking at all
Speaker 2: of the the different.
Speaker 4: ICI forty five plus. Those are the ones they brag
Speaker 4: about there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're they're like topped here, and if you go
Speaker 2: on their website you may think, oh, that's all they've got.
Speaker 3: No no, no, no no no.
Speaker 4: No no no no no no. Officially known as Match
Speaker 4: Group Incorporated, this company is based in Dallas, Texas. For
Speaker 4: anybody not from the United States, Dallas is a pretty
Speaker 4: big deal here. President got shot there back in the day.
Speaker 3: I think I read something about them, Yeah right, we did.
Speaker 4: Au We looked into it as the our buddies, Rob
Speaker 4: Reiner and Solidad O'Brien. The idea of match dot com
Speaker 4: or what becomes match dot com is pretty fascinating. It's
Speaker 4: created way back in nineteen ninety three by a guy
Speaker 4: named Gary Craven, Simon Glenski, and pangte Oong in San Francisco.
Speaker 4: And at the beginning to the earlier point about classified ads,
Speaker 4: that's all they were trying to do. They were taking
Speaker 4: the personal classified ads to the Internet and they were
Speaker 4: calling it. You love this electric classifieds incorporate breaking to
Speaker 4: electric bugaloo.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And there's a there's one individual dude that
Speaker 2: ended up buying up a ton of different domains. They
Speaker 2: were like match dot com, super simple URLs that you
Speaker 2: could get to and he didn't have anything on him yet,
Speaker 2: but he's one of the you know, there's that time
Speaker 2: on the Internet where that was a that was a
Speaker 2: viable business plan.
Speaker 4: Just by sting dot com.
Speaker 5: It still is still is, my friends, I mean, I
Speaker 5: think of the show Matt riddle aboutty money.
Speaker 3: That's he does this forget for laughs.
Speaker 5: He bought the URLDJ COVID nineteen just when COVID nineteen
Speaker 5: was kicking. Justis in case they're like, you know, when
Speaker 5: it's like not too soon anymore that somebody comes out
Speaker 5: and wants that artist. There is a story on NPR
Speaker 5: not terribly long ago about a dude who truly made
Speaker 5: good by just buying up combinations of different political figures
Speaker 5: in the hopes or you know, in the case in
Speaker 5: the event that they ended up running mates and he
Speaker 5: made good and sold some of those to some serious tickets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in this case, this person bought a bunch
Speaker 2: of these and then put them together, and all of
Speaker 2: them had classified ads essentially for different things. Someone were
Speaker 2: for autos, for cars, someone were for this type of thing.
Speaker 2: And it is just amazing that somebody had that idea,
Speaker 2: created this thing, and then almost immediately it reminded me
Speaker 2: a lot of Marshall Brain actually, the founder of houset
Speaker 2: works dot com. Where you start this huge thing and
Speaker 2: you have an idea for it, and then as soon
Speaker 2: as it starts to blossom, it doesn't get taken away.
Speaker 2: But there are now investors and board members and they
Speaker 2: can make decisions in metastasizes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, would be a way to look at it, an
Speaker 4: all priest, dude to Marshall brain, Let's go to David
Speaker 4: Kusher who puts it this way writing for The Atlantic.
Speaker 4: We got we've got a great origin story for our
Speaker 4: buddy Gary, and it will introduce the director of marketing
Speaker 4: that we were talking about later who really really changes
Speaker 4: the game. This is a field of dreams. If you
Speaker 4: build it, they will come kind of moment. This will
Speaker 4: also ultimately be familiar to anybody who's tried to throw
Speaker 4: a house party and get their ratio right.
Speaker 2: Okay, and here is that quote about Gary kremin and
Speaker 2: again is from the Atlantic, David Kusher quote. There was
Speaker 2: a no four letter word for love he knew, and
Speaker 2: it was data, the stuff he would use to match people.
Speaker 2: He could gather data about each client, attributes, assling interests,
Speaker 2: desires for mates, and then compare them with other clients
Speaker 2: data to make matches. With a computer and the Internet,
Speaker 2: he could eliminate the inefficiencies of thousands of years of
Speaker 2: analog dating, the shyness, the mist cues, the posturing. He
Speaker 2: would provide customers with a questionnaire, generate a series of answers,
Speaker 2: and then pair up daters based on how well their
Speaker 2: preferences aligned.
Speaker 4: It's perfect perfect, It's a littleical. I don't know. I
Speaker 4: you know there there might be a diminishing return at
Speaker 4: sub point, Like we've all been in situations where someone
Speaker 4: feels like they're predeciding and interaction, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Have you guys ever had that moment where you're dating
Speaker 4: someone and I'll be a little personal here, and in
Speaker 4: the first or second date they described to you the
Speaker 4: marriage you're going to have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe you know what not yet, Yeah, you got better.
Speaker 3: You got better luck in love than me and.
Speaker 4: Mad Hey guys, spoiler didn't work out.
Speaker 2: Oh dang, come on man, Well, I want to talk
Speaker 2: about a personal thing towards the conclusions of these episodes
Speaker 2: or this episode. But uh, it was something an insight
Speaker 2: that I've discovered through learning about all this stuff. But
Speaker 2: I do not I do not have that experience. I
Speaker 2: do think this is one of those beautiful dreams. Right,
Speaker 2: you see a problem I can imagine in this person's world,
Speaker 2: Gary's world, and then you can see, well, I know
Speaker 2: how to do X, Y and Z. Maybe if I
Speaker 2: apply that to this big problem, I can save the world.
Speaker 4: Maybe by Excel spreadsheet was the answer all along.
Speaker 5: And the thing is I mean, and you know, again
Speaker 5: I mentioned earlier the idea of like you know, there's
Speaker 5: no magic bullets to finding love, but the closest thing
Speaker 5: that you can sell as that is something like this.
Speaker 3: And the reason that people are buying it is because
Speaker 3: it does have a relative success rate to some degree.
Speaker 5: Remember the you remember those E Harmony of course, the
Speaker 5: real testimonials, right sure, the guy.
Speaker 2: That would come on, I can hear his voice, I
Speaker 2: can't see his face right now in this moment, but
Speaker 2: the guy who would say compatibility compatiity, not compatibility. Compatibility
Speaker 2: is the number one thing that's gonna find you true love.
Speaker 2: And that's why E Harmony.
Speaker 3: Only we can sust that out for you with all
Speaker 3: of the day.
Speaker 4: Also, also let us let us admire from the from
Speaker 4: the higher elevation. Let us admire the absolute aspiration of this,
Speaker 4: the idea that you could one could quantify the unquantifiable
Speaker 4: things like love for anybody. Right now, if you are
Speaker 4: listening to this show and you are head over heels
Speaker 4: in love, and that love is reciprocated. You can't really
Speaker 4: put numbers on it. Come on, man, that's a different
Speaker 4: part of the brain. So there is this idea. It's
Speaker 4: again like the like the concept of how science answers
Speaker 4: how and spirituality answers why. Love is a ven diagram
Speaker 4: between those two things. So is it not a bit
Speaker 4: cold to say if you answered X to the following
Speaker 4: Z questions, then we are why compatible?
Speaker 3: Sure? Touch, Sure.
Speaker 5: But also it's like if you think about people kind
Speaker 5: of romanticizing the idea of like finding your soulmates. If
Speaker 5: you think about logistically, which is the absolute you know,
Speaker 5: massive amount of possible soulmates that are out there, what
Speaker 5: are the chances that you found the one best person
Speaker 5: for you? Yes, they might be great, You guys might
Speaker 5: be completely compatible. But what systems like this do is
Speaker 5: widen that net in a way where maybe I could
Speaker 5: actually find that person statistically.
Speaker 4: But I would say also to take it a step
Speaker 4: three steps further. First, that reduces people to quantifiable aspects,
Speaker 4: which is an unholy thing to attempt. Second, uh, the
Speaker 4: idea of a soulmate naturally includes the concept of people
Speaker 4: who were born and died before you were here and
Speaker 4: are going to be alive and die after you have passed,
Speaker 4: such that you know, cloud Atlas becomes an awesome job.
Speaker 4: People believe in reading.
Speaker 5: But that's because if you think about it, though, I mean,
Speaker 5: I understand what you're saying, Ben, But the idea of
Speaker 5: a soulmate is about compatibility, is about a match of
Speaker 5: various characteristics. The question is to what percentage, to what
Speaker 5: degree are you nailing those matches? And is there a
Speaker 5: better version out there you know of the one that
Speaker 5: you've already found.
Speaker 4: Right, that's the third point, the idea to keep people
Speaker 4: eternally chasing the better possibility. When human beings were largely
Speaker 4: living and dying within about thirty miles of where they
Speaker 4: were born, their choices were limited, right, as were their resources.
Speaker 4: Your questionnaire became something like, can you create children? Can
Speaker 4: we have child labor on the farm? Do you agree
Speaker 4: with my idea about God? Because I certainly cannot disagree
Speaker 4: with it, So we cannot have a discourse about this.
Speaker 4: This is what our buddy Gary's dealing with. He starts
Speaker 4: off the same way we are. He's beginning from his
Speaker 4: own lived experiences, his own preferences, and he builds his questionnaire.
Speaker 4: He tries to sum the human heart up in a spreadsheet,
Speaker 4: right in quantifiable terms, and he realizes all of a sudden, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm not the golden goose. And then thank god he
Speaker 4: doesn't have an ego, because he says, wait, no dudes,
Speaker 4: no straight dudes here are going to be the golden goose.
Speaker 4: I can get guys to pay for this service, this
Speaker 4: online dating thing, but my real goal is going to
Speaker 4: have is going to be to get women there somehow. Otherwise,
Speaker 4: why will these straight dudes bother paying for this in
Speaker 4: the first place? And we have to remember context. It's
Speaker 4: the mid nineteen nineties. People who identify as women are
Speaker 4: about ten percent of the folks online. The typical computer
Speaker 4: user is one male, two unmarried three at a computer
Speaker 4: for hours on end every week.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, imagine the as we're talking about the history
Speaker 2: of I don't know, companionship or whatever this stuff is,
Speaker 2: the amount of unwanted male attention man woman experiences and
Speaker 2: then asking them to go on and sign up and
Speaker 2: put all this information about yourself so that you can
Speaker 2: get a crap ton of male attention.
Speaker 4: Right, which still continues to do there.
Speaker 5: But there is a feature built into this that makes
Speaker 5: it appealing, which is the idea that you're not going
Speaker 5: I mean, I forget again. Some of these apps are different,
Speaker 5: but there are certain ones where you're not going to
Speaker 5: open up a chat unless the woman consents, which.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but Gary has that.
Speaker 5: I'm just saying, and I understand what I'm just saying,
Speaker 5: Like there is a version that we're going to get
Speaker 5: to that does benefit women, but even that then kind
Speaker 5: of gets bastardized and becomes its own sort of monstrosity.
Speaker 3: So sorry to jump ahead too much, but yeah, where's
Speaker 3: Gary going with this?
Speaker 2: But also in the mid nineteen nineties, most of us
Speaker 2: were just playing Ultima online and on Aim pretending to
Speaker 2: be we're twenty Oh yeah them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, sorry, it's hilarious, dude, I love it.
Speaker 4: I mean, and that's a that's a big part of it,
Speaker 4: because people are just like Gary, basing the world on themselves. Right,
Speaker 4: this is me, so this must be logically everybody. Gary
Speaker 4: is doing a really smart thing. And he says, look,
Speaker 4: I gotta go figure out people who are not me.
Speaker 4: I gotta if we want women on my weird thing
Speaker 4: then and he didn't call this weird thing, then I
Speaker 4: have to talk to actual women. I have to figure
Speaker 4: out what people's worlds who are not like me, like,
Speaker 4: what's going on with them? What do they care about?
Speaker 4: And when he had these conversations, the lore of the
Speaker 4: story goes that he talked to all of his female
Speaker 4: relationships or familial members. He talked to people he just
Speaker 4: found on the street, his friends, and they said, your
Speaker 4: questionnaire needs a lot of work, because your questionnaire is
Speaker 4: about you, and they said in particular, I think it
Speaker 4: was a big cold shower for him when unanimously women said, hey, Bud,
Speaker 4: your explicit sexual questions are kind of a non starter.
Speaker 4: That's a turn off. And then they hit him with
Speaker 4: another one and they said, why on earth would I
Speaker 4: want random guys to your earlier point, Matt? Why would
Speaker 4: I want random guys to see my real name and
Speaker 4: my photo online? Because that would mean they could find me.
Speaker 2: I was listening to that podcast it look Deep into
Speaker 2: this Land of the Giants. It was like season six
Speaker 2: or seven, I think maybe.
Speaker 4: Episode two Dating Games.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the entire series it's all about dating apps
Speaker 2: and they go into in depth. There a bunch of
Speaker 2: the stuff that was online that people were doing who
Speaker 2: were actually developing these things, but hot or not do
Speaker 2: you guys remember that that was a big one of
Speaker 2: the big pushes there trying to figure out why would
Speaker 2: to this specific problem, Why would a woman or a
Speaker 2: female put a picture of themselves online for it to
Speaker 2: be judged essentially by other people?
Speaker 5: Was it hot or not like the early Facebook model,
Speaker 5: or is it that or is it something like.
Speaker 2: Things like that. That wasn't the only one, but that
Speaker 2: was the big one where it was like, how do
Speaker 2: you what is the thing that causes someone to put
Speaker 2: their picture on there for it to be judged to
Speaker 2: see if people like me? Essentially? Right? That the primary motivation?
Speaker 3: Why would you open yourself up to ridicule?
Speaker 5: Why would you open yourself up to that kind of
Speaker 5: judgment and or harassment?
Speaker 2: Ginger Well, yeah, exactly, But what is that thing that spark?
Speaker 2: And trying to capture what that is and then somehow
Speaker 2: incorporate it into this thing he's building.
Speaker 3: And incorporate a sense of safety, incorporate a sense.
Speaker 5: Of like, yeah, exactly, what's what's the buy in for
Speaker 5: someone to be willing to give this kind of information up?
Speaker 2: I I don't mean to say that there's negative motivation
Speaker 2: for any of these things that are being created especially
Speaker 2: at this time with Gary. It's it is that thing
Speaker 2: of how do I get people to use this thing?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: It's Field the dreams, Right, it's Field the Dreams. He's
Speaker 4: a Kevin Costner, you know, is or whomever Kevin Costner
Speaker 4: was acting as in that He's like, how do I
Speaker 4: get these people to show up to the ballgame. Eventually
Speaker 4: he understands the best way to find out what women
Speaker 4: really want the age old quest. He needs get this
Speaker 4: you guys, real life women on the team. So he
Speaker 4: contacts his former classmate fran Meyer from his time at
Speaker 4: Stanford and he hires her as the director of marketing,
Speaker 4: and to her credit, she immediately clocks a secondary issue
Speaker 4: and she says, Gary, women aren't going to join up
Speaker 4: for your internet thing unless they know there are already
Speaker 4: other women in the sandbox, unless they're already participating. Hold
Speaker 4: the phone, folks, amid all this discourse ed exploration of
Speaker 4: monopolization and conspiracy, we hope that you will swipe right
Speaker 4: on part two of the Illuminati of Online Dating. We
Speaker 4: can't wait to hear your thoughts. Join us later this
Speaker 4: week for wait did I say Part two? We'll keep
Speaker 4: it in We've got a two part episode. We want
Speaker 4: to hang out with you. Please let us know what's
Speaker 4: on your mind. We try to be easy to find online.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 5: You can find us in the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
Speaker 5: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where
Speaker 5: it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter, and on YouTube.
Speaker 5: You can also find us at the handle conspiracy Stuff
Speaker 5: on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2: We've got a phone number. It's one eight three three
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Speaker 2: E harmony guy was Neil Clark Warren, Doctor Neil Clark Warren,
Speaker 2: the American clinical psychologist and Christian theologian that was coming
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