WEBVTT - Cataclysmic, and Bigger Than the Election.  Josh Rogin Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>This massive and pervasive hacking by China of US telecom

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<v Speaker 1>companies is significant. Your colleague Mark Warner said, it's most

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<v Speaker 1>significant breach he has ever seen in his entire time

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<v Speaker 1>on the committee. Do you know if China has been

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<v Speaker 1>able to access the audio of Americans phone calls?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm not going to comment on what they access,

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<v Speaker 2>but I agree with Mark Warner's statement, it is an egregious, outrageous,

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<v Speaker 2>and dangerous breach of our telecommunications systems across multiple companies.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll leave it at that. I think as time goes on,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to learn more about it. Some of it

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<v Speaker 2>will be made public. I think there's more that's still

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<v Speaker 2>being gathered. It's a very serious situation that we face,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think one that is quite threatening, maybe not

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<v Speaker 2>directly to the election per se, but certainly to the

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<v Speaker 2>national security of our country moving forward. It's a vulnerability

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<v Speaker 2>that no one imagined or anticipated, but here it is.

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<v Speaker 3>It's interesting that he put it in the context of

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<v Speaker 3>the election. That is the problem. We're so focused on

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<v Speaker 3>the election. This China Chinese hack of AT and T

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<v Speaker 3>and Verizon and and again, as you just heard, there

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<v Speaker 3>maybe the biggest hack that we've had in our nation's history.

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<v Speaker 3>It's all being run through the prism of the election.

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<v Speaker 3>Did they get anything on Trump or Harris that will

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<v Speaker 3>affect the election? And blah blah blah, and otherwise ignoring

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that Brennan asked at one point, were they

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<v Speaker 3>actually listening to our phone calls of American citizens? And

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<v Speaker 3>Mark Rubia said, well, I'm not going to comment on that.

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<v Speaker 3>What what that seems like a big story.

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<v Speaker 4>Josh Rogan wrote a terrific piece in The Washington Post

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<v Speaker 4>about this. Josh is the columnist for the Global Opinion

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<v Speaker 4>section of the Post, author of a terrific book, Chaos

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<v Speaker 4>under Heaven. Trump she in the Battle for the twenty

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<v Speaker 4>first century, among other things, and Josh joins us. Now, Josh,

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<v Speaker 4>this seems like the all time champion great significance to

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<v Speaker 4>little attention story of all time, or close to it.

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<v Speaker 5>Right in any sane world, this would be the most

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<v Speaker 5>important thing on the news right now. But the timing

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<v Speaker 5>of the election is actually kind of unfortunate because it's

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<v Speaker 5>overshadowing what one of my sources said is the biggest

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<v Speaker 5>intelligence breach in US history.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 5>And after that, Marco Ribo wanted to give but couldn't

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<v Speaker 5>because it's classified information. But I'm going to tell you anyway,

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<v Speaker 5>is that yes, they're listening to the audio real time

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<v Speaker 5>phone calls and watching the text messages in real time

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<v Speaker 5>of hundreds, if not thousands, of American citizens. That they've

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<v Speaker 5>been doing it for a year, and they're embedded in

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<v Speaker 5>the telecom systems in a way that even our own

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<v Speaker 5>intelligence community doesn't fully understand. They don't know how to

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<v Speaker 5>get them out, they don't know if they can get

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<v Speaker 5>them out. And this is a problem that's just so

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<v Speaker 5>big and so hard to wrap your head around that

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<v Speaker 5>the US companies doesn't want to talk about it because

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<v Speaker 5>it's embarrassing. They don't have any answers, and if people

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<v Speaker 5>really knew what was going on, they would freak out.

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<v Speaker 5>And the bottom line is that the telecoms don't want

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<v Speaker 5>to tell anybody either, because it's their systems that got hacked.

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<v Speaker 5>But I think what you heard from Warner and from

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<v Speaker 5>Rubio in that clip is that this is real, This

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<v Speaker 5>is big, and this is not going away. It's only

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<v Speaker 5>going to get worse.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow. So the Chinese have been into our biggest phone

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<v Speaker 3>companies for a year and they don't know how to

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<v Speaker 3>get them out, or if they can get them.

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<v Speaker 5>Out, it's even worse than that because they not only

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<v Speaker 5>did they get are they into the phone companies, they

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<v Speaker 5>got through in the system that the phone company is

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<v Speaker 5>built for the FBI to do wire tapping on criminals

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<v Speaker 5>and spies and people talking with criminals.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 5>FBI can only do that theoretically with a legal warrant,

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<v Speaker 5>but the Chinese intelligence services don't care about that. So

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<v Speaker 5>they have all the access maybe not only to our phones,

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<v Speaker 5>into our text but also to all of the federal

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<v Speaker 5>investigations that are underway and all the counter intelligence operations

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<v Speaker 5>that are underway, which could be completely compromised everywhere around

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<v Speaker 5>the world. And how you deal with that is a

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<v Speaker 5>whole other problem.

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<v Speaker 4>Boy, to say this is devastating. I need to invent

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<v Speaker 4>a new word to correctly convey the seriousness. Astounding kind

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<v Speaker 4>of clip Well, that seems like a good word, And Josh,

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<v Speaker 4>I hate to leap to the libertarian you know angle

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<v Speaker 4>of this immediately, but the idea that the government and

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<v Speaker 4>the phone companies assured us that no, these portals into

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<v Speaker 4>your private communications will only be used for the most

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<v Speaker 4>important of investigations and get very serious, very safe rather

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<v Speaker 4>has has always been you know, exposed as a lie. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>There'll be.

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<v Speaker 5>There'll be a time for the politics of all of this,

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<v Speaker 5>But I have to agree that it proves that when

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<v Speaker 5>you build back doors for the government into encrypted systems,

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<v Speaker 5>things go wrong because those back doors are vulnerabilities and

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<v Speaker 5>they get the bad guys as well as the good

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<v Speaker 5>guys can figure out how to get into them. And

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<v Speaker 5>there's another political angle too, which is the PISO warrant issue,

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<v Speaker 5>because if you're anywhere in Donald Trump's orbit, you have

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<v Speaker 5>a thing against PISO warrants because they were used to

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<v Speaker 5>spy on the Trump campaign in twenty sixteen, and that's

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<v Speaker 5>that's the same system. It's not the same issue, but

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<v Speaker 5>it's the same system. So there's a lot of crazy

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<v Speaker 5>tangents that will come out of this. But the first

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<v Speaker 5>thing is just for in my opinion, of Americans to

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<v Speaker 5>know that they're vulnerable so that they could do something

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<v Speaker 5>about it, so they can change their practices, and for

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<v Speaker 5>the telecom community and for the intelligence community to tell

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<v Speaker 5>us what's going on, because that's what they're supposed to

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<v Speaker 5>do when something like this happened.

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<v Speaker 3>What's your worst case scenario for what China could do

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<v Speaker 3>with some of this information that they've gathered.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I mean again, I think the worst case scenario,

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<v Speaker 5>hopefully that we want to see is that they use

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<v Speaker 5>it to interfere in our politics in a direct way.

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<v Speaker 5>That's kind of what the Russians or the Iritians would do.

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<v Speaker 5>What it seems more likely is that they'll just save

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<v Speaker 5>it all and use it in intelligence ways for blackmail, disinformation,

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<v Speaker 5>deep fakes, you know, collecting on any American they want

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<v Speaker 5>for any time. So it's kind of like there's a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of worst case scenarios, and you know, there's no

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<v Speaker 5>way to sort of plan for all of them. But

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<v Speaker 5>it seems that the primary worst case scenario, which is

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<v Speaker 5>that our telecommunications network are compromised, that's already here. That's

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<v Speaker 5>a pretty bad case scenario already.

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<v Speaker 4>Right. I completely understand the concept of if they know

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<v Speaker 4>all of our secrets, the worst case scenario is that

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<v Speaker 4>they will use them whenever they need to for the

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<v Speaker 4>next one hundred years. But at the same time, I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm just so flabbergasted by the notion that they have

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<v Speaker 4>access to a great deal of our counter intelligence.

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<v Speaker 6>I mean, that is just so disastrous, right, So we

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<v Speaker 6>have you know, not just counter intelligence, criminal investigation, any

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<v Speaker 6>wire tap or surveillance that the FBI or any other

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<v Speaker 6>federal law enforcement is doing.

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<v Speaker 5>Those records are kept somewhere. Now this is a kind

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<v Speaker 5>of a part we don't know, to be clear, we

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<v Speaker 5>don't know if they have that. What we do know

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<v Speaker 5>is that they, excuse me, collect already collected audio on

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<v Speaker 5>for example, former President Trump, jd Vance, Jared Kushner, Eric Trump,

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<v Speaker 5>members of the Harris campaign, congressional staffers for Chuck Schumer,

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<v Speaker 5>leading US business leaders, leading US government officials. We don't

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<v Speaker 5>know their names. So those are the people they've already

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<v Speaker 5>spied on and already have got stuff on. And the

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<v Speaker 5>list keeps growing every day. The FBI finds out more people,

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<v Speaker 5>and eventually you have to think like, oh, maybe we

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<v Speaker 5>should tell those people, right, And the FBI has been

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<v Speaker 5>reluctant to do that because once they tell these people,

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<v Speaker 5>these people tell other people, and all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 5>people like me start to figure out what's going on,

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<v Speaker 5>and I'm like, oh, I got to tell the country,

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<v Speaker 5>you know. But you know, eventually there's this problem where

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<v Speaker 5>people are getting spied on. They need to know it, okay,

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<v Speaker 5>And if the government doesn't want to tell us because

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<v Speaker 5>they're embarrassed about it. That's a that's its own problem.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, the more I Josh Rogan, Global Opinions, Calumnists

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<v Speaker 4>or the Washington Post is online, Jack go ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>And the more I think about it, it makes such sense.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it is small ball for she or whoever

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<v Speaker 3>makes these decisions to try to affect the election. He's

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<v Speaker 3>thinking bigger than that. I mean, he wants to influence

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<v Speaker 3>policy on a major level, or understand it ahead of

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<v Speaker 3>time or whatever over whoever ends up in the administry,

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<v Speaker 3>maybe for years to come. So yeah, just you know,

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<v Speaker 3>nudging the election one where or another's probably small compared to

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<v Speaker 3>their thoughts.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, that's right. They'd rather preserve it for let's say, hypothetically,

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<v Speaker 5>China invades Taiwan and then we try to do something

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<v Speaker 5>about it, and then they shut down our telecomsystem. Not

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<v Speaker 5>to mention whatever else they're in, because this is just

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<v Speaker 5>a piece of a puzzle. The Chinese are also into

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<v Speaker 5>our energy systems and our manufacturing and construction systems, and

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<v Speaker 5>you know, our internet service providers. Do you can imagine

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<v Speaker 5>that's a pretty big deterrent for us getting involved to

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<v Speaker 5>try to save Taiwan. If they're like, oh, we're just

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<v Speaker 5>going to shut off your internet and your phones and

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<v Speaker 5>then we're going to see what's what you know, So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>they have their own interests. It's also not clear that

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<v Speaker 5>the Chinese have a clear preference between Harris and Trump.

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<v Speaker 5>The Russians want Harris, I'm sorry. The Russians want Trump,

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<v Speaker 5>The Iranians want Harris. The Chinese could play it either way.

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<v Speaker 5>So they're preparing for both scenarios. That's why they're spying

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<v Speaker 5>on both camps because they want to be ready either way.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, And it occurs to me that, you know, given

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<v Speaker 4>the openness of our democrat system and the fact that

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<v Speaker 4>the legislature weighs in on so many of the important

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<v Speaker 4>policies and topics vis vir relationship with China going forward

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<v Speaker 4>for the next twenty years, you know, decoupling the economies,

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<v Speaker 4>the farm, big pharma, you know, tech, military technologies, chips,

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<v Speaker 4>just all of it. All of that is going to

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<v Speaker 4>go through the legislative process. And if they can bring

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<v Speaker 4>pressure to bear on one point six million people who

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<v Speaker 4>they have dossiers on having just talked to their lover

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<v Speaker 4>on the cell phone or texting their bookie or whatever.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, they are going to exert that pressure wherever

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<v Speaker 4>they can. Oh my god, what a what a what

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<v Speaker 4>a situation.

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<v Speaker 5>It's really bad.

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<v Speaker 3>You have got to be I mean, this was the

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<v Speaker 3>reason of your piece. Just shocked that it's not getting

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<v Speaker 3>more attention than it is.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, you know, I think, to be honest, guys, this

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<v Speaker 5>is why people inside the system brought this story to me.

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<v Speaker 5>One of them said, because they're taking a risk by

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<v Speaker 5>you know, killing me Ali the questions information knowing that

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<v Speaker 5>I'm going to tell the world, because they thought it

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<v Speaker 5>was that important. And one of them said to me, listen, Josh,

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<v Speaker 5>this is bigger than the election, and we can't afford

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<v Speaker 5>to let this get caught up in political and you

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<v Speaker 5>know again sort of the blame game and how it's

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<v Speaker 5>going to affect privacy and how it's going to you know,

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<v Speaker 5>the debate over FAISA and the Russia Gate or whatever.

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<v Speaker 5>My source said to me, listen, that's not but that's

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<v Speaker 5>not the most important thing right now. The people need

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<v Speaker 5>to know because the response has to have a fire

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<v Speaker 5>lit under it, because the telecom companies in the FBI

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<v Speaker 5>and the intelligence community are bearing this thing now, are

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<v Speaker 5>they burying it because of the election. No, they're probably

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<v Speaker 5>bearing it because they don't know what they're do. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>they don't know what to do, you know, And it's

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<v Speaker 5>it's real. It's just such a huge problem that you know,

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<v Speaker 5>people are going to get freaked out, but better that

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<v Speaker 5>they get freaked out by the truth and not. And

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<v Speaker 5>I don't see any reason to wait election or no

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<v Speaker 5>election to tell people that they're at risk.

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<v Speaker 4>Did I just have an acid flag? Did your source

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<v Speaker 4>say to you, Josh, this is bigger than the election.

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<v Speaker 5>That's a direct quote, you know, Okay, and good.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you're you're gonna be the Woodward and Bernstein of

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<v Speaker 3>this story. Then we will keep an eye on your

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<v Speaker 3>column and uh, you know, and your Twitter feed on

0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.200
<v Speaker 3>this one, because this has got legs. I'm sure.

0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:20.160
<v Speaker 4>Oh my goodness.

0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:21.840
<v Speaker 5>I'll let you know when I get another piece of it,

0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.760
<v Speaker 5>because this is going to get worse before it gets better.

0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:24.040
<v Speaker 4>Wow.

0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:24.400
<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.760
<v Speaker 4>We have a link to Josh's whole piece at the

0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.040
<v Speaker 4>top of hot Links, Armstrong and getty dot com. Josh

0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:34.120
<v Speaker 4>always enlightening in a pleasure. Thanks a million, have good day.

0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.080
<v Speaker 4>We are so Jack, Just real quick, I'm looking at

0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.920
<v Speaker 4>the top of the most red opinion pieces in the

0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.520
<v Speaker 4>UH the WAPO right now. Number one, who's going to

0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.400
<v Speaker 4>win on election Day? Here are eight columnist predictions. Number two,

0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.680
<v Speaker 4>women can send Trump packing? Number three can you guess

0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.360
<v Speaker 4>who people will vote for? Try the squiz? Number four?

0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.880
<v Speaker 4>If Trump loses Pennsylvania, he'll have no one to blame

0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.480
<v Speaker 4>but himself. Fifth, it's about abortion.

0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.640
<v Speaker 3>And I had at a lefty friend was always so

0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.360
<v Speaker 3>into who was president and Trump and then this and that,

0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.640
<v Speaker 3>and I could never get them into a conversation about

0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.520
<v Speaker 3>China or anything, you know, big because they always go

0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:12.280
<v Speaker 3>back to the election. That's way a lot of people are.

0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:16.040
<v Speaker 3>And how about how about sources going to Josh Rogan

0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.360
<v Speaker 3>because they know he's into this sort of stuff, saying, Okay,

0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.000
<v Speaker 3>we got to give you some information. Print a piece

0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.960
<v Speaker 3>about this. Nobody's paying attention. It's bigger than the election.

0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:30.160
<v Speaker 3>It's the biggest hack of our systems in US history

0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.920
<v Speaker 3>by China, our number one enemy, and it's getting no coverage.

0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.440
<v Speaker 3>And Margaret Brennan throws it in at the end after

0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.199
<v Speaker 3>arguing about Trump and what he said about Liz Cheney.

0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.480
<v Speaker 3>She throws around in at the very end after like

0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.680
<v Speaker 3>an eight minute interview as an afterthought. As an afterthought,

0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:50.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah wow wow, well, Gully, how do we transition?

0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.319
<v Speaker 4>We can't. A quick word from our longtime friends at

0:12:54.320 --> 0:13:00.480
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<v Speaker 4>four years and years, and they're looking for your help. Yep.

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<v Speaker 3>helped them raise money for four years to fly ill

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<v Speaker 3>and injured Marine soldiers and sailors home for the holidays.

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<v Speaker 3>But it takes some money to do that.

0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 4>Everyone deserves to spend the holidays with their loved ones,

0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.439
<v Speaker 4>especially the men and women who have so bravely sacrificed

0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 4>for our country. And we've seen it firsthand how Warrior

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<v Speaker 4>Please consider making a tax deductible donation next Thursday the

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<v Speaker 4>fourteenth at Warrior Foundation dot org. Now get the name right,

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<v Speaker 4>Once again. Make your donation Warrior Foundation dot org.

0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.320
<v Speaker 3>God, we're so fat, soft and happy with our who's said, what,

0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 3>mean thing about whoever? And arguing about that for days

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.360
<v Speaker 3>and ignoring the fact that world history is not going

0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.480
<v Speaker 3>to change. There's always a battle for who's in charge

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.640
<v Speaker 3>of what, and China wants to take over and they

0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:20.040
<v Speaker 3>just had and they just you know, had a huge, huge,

0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.840
<v Speaker 3>wintured go ahead. If you talk to a thousand people today,

0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 3>how many people would know this story?

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 4>And I'm picturing Shijhin Ping. They're in Beijing saying, oh

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 4>my god, they discovered our hack. What are the Americans saying?

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 4>And his advisers saying, nobody's really noticed. They're not talking

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.640
<v Speaker 4>about it at all. Other than the Armstrong and Getty show.

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.480
<v Speaker 4>We got a lot more on the way. Stay here,

0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:43.560
<v Speaker 4>Armstrong and