WEBVTT - Is your ISP sniffing packets? 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.960 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:08.800 It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:14.560 tech Stuff from how stuff Works dot com. Hello, everybody, 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.119 welcome to tech Stuff. My name is Chris Polette and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.520 I'm an editor here at how stuff Works dot com 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.320 and today I have with me as usual, senior writer 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:28.840 Jonathan Strickland. Hello, what are you doing stiffen sniffing? What 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.600 apparently the microphone Josh must have been in here? It 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:37.319 smells like chips and fresca. Well then, um, I think 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:39.199 that was because we were going to talk about I 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:45.000 sp S sniffing packets. Let's say alright then, um, for 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:50.040 the uninitiated, a packet is a little piece of information, 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.760 a little piece of digital information in specific, and it's um. 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:58.000 It's essentially how the Internet gets information from one place 0:00:58.000 --> 0:00:59.960 to another, breaks it down into little chunks, sort of 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.360 like you might freeze Charleston chew and whacket on the table. Um, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:05.880 These little packets of information are going from server to 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.600 server to get from your computer to somewhere else. Why 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.360 are you looking at because I was thinking of Mike 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.640 TV from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory that's a 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:19.000 better analogy. Tiny tiny bits, sends it through the air, 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.600 and then it gets magically put back together on the 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.960 other side. It's not magic. I'm just joking about that obviously. Um. 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.280 And you don't have to stretch it out at the end. No, 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:34.240 But every packet has essentially three three different sections. You 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.280 have a header, and then the header is sort of 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.119 the information about the packet itself, like where it fits 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:43.039 within the grand scheme of the information um, the origin 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.959 from the origin computer and the destination computer. You know, 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.360 it's kind of like all the the administrative stuff you 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.840 need in order to send information from one place to another. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.440 Then you have the payload. The payload is the part 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:56.840 of the packet that actually holds the information you want 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.240 to send. So let's say an email, that would be 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.160 the part that would hold part of that email. And 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.120 then the footer, which essentially tells the computer, hey, this 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.760 is the end of the packet. Um. So you send 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:10.920 enough of these packets together, it's like putting a puzzle together. 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.200 You get all these different headers and that tells you 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.000 where everything belongs, and the computer puts it all together 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.959 and then you get the email on the other side. Yep, 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:24.040 and Uh. The thing is, there have been rumors, some 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:29.000 of them quite substantial, um, that your internet service provider, 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.320 or at least some Internet service providers, are sniffing packets 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:34.800 now sniffing in this case, they're not actually you know, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.000 walking up to the computer and inhaling sharply like like 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.120 Chris and I are. Um. They what they're doing is 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:45.120 they're they're using special software to look at the information 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.600 that is inside these packets and uh, and it can 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.079 also put this stuff together so I can figure out 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.120 what it is that's going across the networks. Now, if 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.680 you're an Internet service provider, you can essentially see everything 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:58.920 that's going across your network. I mean you you have 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.760 that capability of see, of of looking in and saying 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.639 at any particular time and saying, okay, what's going across 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.240 right now? And you can see where the traffic is heaviest. 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.880 And you know, there there's some legitimate reasons for doing this. 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.079 It's not all you know, cloak and dagger espionage. Someone's 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.360 spying on my information kind of stuff. But the problem 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.920 is there also is this cloak and dagger element that 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.480 goes along with it. And that's where objections are are 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.320 popping up all over the place. That's true. Um, you know, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.720 from the I s P S point of view, Uh, 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.680 the I s P ight want to do some uh 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.520 you know, packet sniffing to ensure that they're not their 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:44.240 network isn't being misused. Um. You know, you might have, 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.680 for example, someone downloading a movie via bit torrent. Okay, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.800 take away the legal aspects of it. If you have 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.520 somebody who's downloading a bunch of movies via bit torrent, 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.360 that person is using a whole lot of bandwidth, and 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.800 if your bandwidth is split up among say we'll make 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:01.800 it will pretend it's a small I s P thirty 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.680 customers and one person is taking up the majority of 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.880 the band with You might be kind of concerned, especially 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.080 if your other customers start calling in and going, hey, 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.400 I just don't I don't know, I'm not getting any throughput. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.240 The latency is terrible. What's going on with this? You 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.159 might say, well, you know what, I have an idea 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.039 what might be going on with this? You might say, look, 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.800 you know, Charlie, you're gonna have to stop downloading all 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:27.440 these movies. UM. Now that's where the legal stuff starts 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.920 getting in, because you know, the r I a A, 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.800 the Recording Industry Association of America, and the Motion Picture 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:39.000 Association of America. Yes, they have a different interest in 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:44.880 wanting to know who's downloading what and when. Yeah, chances 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:46.680 are if you're listening to this podcast, you at least 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.640 have some knowledge about what we're talking about here, because 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:51.640 it's not like the r I A and the m 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.440 b a A have been particularly secretive about this. Um. 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.200 They might have even sued you. Example, you may very 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.920 well have been one of the people they sued. Um. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:05.960 They're they're quite serious about stopping piracy as any way 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.159 they can, including all the wrong ones. Um. And and 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.440 you know, I say that kind of lightly, but it 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.120 really is true. They tend to use a club to 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.880 to attack a nap um. There's even debate among a 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.039 lot of people. I'm sure pirates are among them. Uh 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:25.520 that you know, the the quote unquote damage being done 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.640 by this piracy issue is so minuscule in comparison to 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.159 the uh the retribution meet it out by these groups 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.880 that it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not gonna throw my hat 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.279 into that ring because that's just a that's that's too 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.800 thorny even for me. Yeah, I'm stunned. Well, maybe it'll 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.840 be a blog post in the future. But the the 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.880 important thing here is that these organizations have a lot 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.800 of clout. I mean, first of all, they have tons 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:57.920 and tons of money, and they are representing the recording 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.560 industry and the movie industry, right, and uh, they have 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.880 a lot of Uh. When I say cloud, i'm talking 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.920 political cloud. They can they're very influential. I mean, these 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.440 are huge industries, and uh, there are a lot of 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.040 politicians who listened to them, and they're very highly paid lobbyists. 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.680 So yeah, they're paid to talk to politicians, or they're 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.320 paying people to talk to politicians on their behalf. At 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:25.159 any rate, what's happening here is that you've got politicians 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.680 who here, hey, we need to stop this. It's it's 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.240 ruining our industry. We can't control it. And uh, and 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.240 so they start looking for ways to stop piracy that 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:41.479 could affect you, even if you're not, um misbehaving at all. Yeah, 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.640 it's funny that you would say that, because I actually 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.839 have an example of something that that was just in 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.320 the news about that UM and it wasn't in in 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.160 the mainstream media, or at least not a lot of it. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:58.240 So I actually have an article from the Guardian, um 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.159 in which they were saying that California and Democratic Senator 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.520 Diane Feinstein was having language added to the stimulus package 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.400 that was just passed not too long ago. Um. And 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.720 essentially it was theoretically it was supposed to add uh 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.840 packets sniffing properties to the language. And you might say, well, 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:23.280 what's going on with that? Well, the idea was, Um, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.040 it was it was for the Broadband Technology Opportunities Program. 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.120 It's six to nine billion uh dollar part of the 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.880 stimulus package, and it was originally aimed to build out 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:38.160 broadband networks in less served areas well. She wanted to 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.080 add language that would allow them to sniff packets or 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.760 would force I sp s T sniff packets for child 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.960 pornography and copyright infringement. Um. And uh, you know this, 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.720 this was in the Guardian and apparently, UM, when I 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.240 did a little bit of follow up research on it, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.280 it doesn't appear to have actually made it in. Uh. 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.720 They were attempting to add it in, but it didn't 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.160 actually go in pretty sneak way past it. But the thing, well, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.160 the thing is, you know some people were saying that 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.520 the m P a a had uh. Senator fine Stein's here. 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.440 Of course, I have no way of knowing that for 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:16.200 certain um, but you know, it does go with what 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.880 you were saying a moment ago about how um you 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.480 know they have so much political cloud. Well, you know, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.000 she has a California senator, and those industries are very 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.560 very strong in California. So um, and it's conceivable that 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.240 they may have been suggesting to her that that this 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.280 language was added into the bill. However, it didn't seem 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:40.280 to make it into the law. And Chris mentioned earlier 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:45.520 the whole thing about Torrance. Torrent is not necessarily illegal 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.280 um to a method of peer to peer sharing, and 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.800 it's there's nothing illegal about sharing files especially. I mean, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.400 if you've got the right to share those, then that's 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.679 perfectly fine. There's nothing stopping you if it's all you know, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:01.960 if it's all in public domain or shareware, or if 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.920 it's yours and you don't mind, that's cool. Yeah, I mean, 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:06.400 this is a This is one of those things where 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:10.319 it's not the technology that's illegal. The technology is perfectly 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.080 fine to to use to break down the information and 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:15.880 send it. As a matter of fact, it's very much 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.640 like the Internet packet sharing. I mean it breaks a 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:23.760 file into pieces and distributes them. Um. But yeah, it 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.160 has nothing to do with what people are using technology 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.280 for exactly. Just like people can use the web to do, 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.439 you know, to look at illicit material. That doesn't mean 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:38.120 that's what the web is for. You know, it's it's possible. 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.120 Just like someone could use a I don't know, a 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.160 highway to make a fast getaway from a bank robbery. 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.720 That doesn't mean that's what the highways for. So of 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.200 course you're getting it getting now we're getting into the 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.480 area where I do throw my hat into the ring. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.160 But so here's the question. If if I s p 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:02.199 s are forced or at least highly encouraged to sniff packets, 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:06.080 how can you tell? Um, Well, there are a couple 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.280 of different ways. There's some software out there that you 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:10.400 can run that at least lets you see kind of 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.480 what your I SP is up to. Some of it's 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:16.160 from our good friends over at a Google. Really yeah, 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.240 actually it's sort of a kind of a partnership with Google. Um. 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.600 There's a group called Measurement Lab, and Measurement Lab has 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.520 several different programs you can download for free to kind 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.559 of see what's going on on your Internet service provider. 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:36.120 One of them is called gloss nost Um, and gloss 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.040 nost is a tool that tells you if bit torrent 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.679 traffic is being blocked by your I s P a 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.600 bit torrent traffic. Yeah, why would why would bit torrent 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.800 traffic be blocked by your I s P? I mean 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.600 if you're using I don't know, Comcast for example. Oh yeah, 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.600 that was a good, good segue there. So Comcast got 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.920 a huge got egg on its face corporate face, uh, 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.640 quite a bit in the corporate egg over the last 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.840 couple of years because they the company argued very strenuously 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.480 that it was not blocking any traffic um or anything 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.000 based upon the kind of traffic it was. So they 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.959 were being accused of throttling, which means they're controlling how 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.400 much information can go through throttling a bit torrent traffic. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.000 And they said no, no, we're not doing that. And 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.040 then it turned out yes, they were in fact doing 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:31.000 that and inserting fake packets into streams to disrupt disrupt 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:36.640 traffic entirely. Right, So um, this was the FCC said 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.120 this was a bad thing and that it violated net 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.000 neutrality and that Comcast was in violation of it and 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:45.000 needed to be fined. Comcast came back and said, you 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.160 know what, what gives you f c C the right 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.320 to do this? And the FCC said, we'll get back 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.960 to you on that, because, as it turns out, it's 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.400 not against the law. No one really has the authority. 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.319 I mean, the Internet is a global thing. It grew 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.920 very organ anically, and we're getting to the point now 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.280 where it's grown faster than our way, our means of 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:10.520 administering it, and and and you know, being able to 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:15.199 meet out justice or or detect injustice. I mean, who's 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.680 to say what's right and wrong? There's no ultimate authority. 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.079 You can go to the loan Internet ranger, right, I 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.400 guess we could all go to Tim berners Lee. Of 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.680 course that's the Web, that's not the Internet. M vent surf. Wait, 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:31.719 he's with Google. I think he would just say it 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.400 all it's all fair. Well, in which case, let's go 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.360 for it. Well, you know that goes back. Comcast is 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.560 basically saying, look, you know, people are using our network, 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.240 and we want to make sure that network resources are 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.240 used fairly and everybody has a chance to you know, 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.840 simpath the well of bandwidth, um you know. So that's 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.960 been their argument, I think is saying, look, you know, 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:55.760 we're just trying to make sure that our services are 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.679 okay for everybody to use. It's just that, uh, you know, 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.120 some people use a whole lot. And the problem is 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:02.920 that there there are a lot of people who say, 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.760 you know what, there's no evidence that this BitTorrent use 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.280 is affecting the bandwidth of your network at all. Um, 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.080 as far as we can tell, you're only doing it 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:13.920 because it happens to be a bit torrent. You're not 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.240 doing it for other kinds of content. So um, and 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.559 the measurement lab tool only works for this this particular one. 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:23.960 They there are others that are supposed to come out soon. 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.600 They are not out now. Um. But uh yeah, like 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.240 uh def probe is supposed to determine if your I 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.240 s P is shuffling around certain kinds of traffic onto 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.120 a slower pipe, so you would be able to see 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:39.760 if your I s P says, you know what, this 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.320 is not as important to us as this is. Let's uh, 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.000 you know what, Jimmy's just gonna have to wait an 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.559 extra hour for that movie to download because Billy over 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.439 here he needs to access our content. So let's put 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.240 him on the fast track and let's put Jimmy on 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.400 the slow track. Well, you're not supposed to do that, 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.880 not at least according to the philosophy of net neutrality. UM, 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.480 everyone's supposed to kind of a level playing field. So 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.959 this would let you tell see if your SP was 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.600 actually messing around with you. So for example, and I'm 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.000 not saying that they're doing this, I'm just thinking of 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.240 them again because I happen to know they have this service. 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.880 For example, Comcast has a service that's very much like 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:20.080 Hulu's where you can download video content, watch shows live 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.560 or not live, but you know, streaming on the internet. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.680 So for example, you might have you know, Steve trying 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.720 to watch a movie on Comcast service, and you know 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.120 Jenny watching something on Hulu. They could slow down and 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.160 inhibit Jenny's traffic to give Steve's traffic priority because he's 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.560 using their service and they want their service to look 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.120 good or even not that they have been accused of that, 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.960 I'm just saying that's an example of how an I 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.080 SP might do that. They might even do it just 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.200 so that they can convince Jenny that she really needs 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.680 to switch to Comcast instead of using Hulu entirely, again 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.200 goes against the philosophy in that neutrality. UM. So yeah, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.000 this is a this is a complicated issue. Now our 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:07.520 I SP sniffing packets probably without running this software, it's 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.240 impossible for me to say that if they're sniffing your 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.760 packets are not. But um, there's a good chance. So 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.680 there's nothing stopping them because I mean the FCC is 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.040 like the FCC complaint was all about throttling, right, not 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:26.000 about packet sniffing. UM. So you know, uh, for the 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.400 answer of your question, is my I s P sniff 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:34.880 sniffing my packets? Uh? Probably? Yeah, that said, think about 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.000 all the people on your I s P. If you 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:42.080 use a um, a very large I s P. Especially, UM, 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.800 you know, they're not gonna sit there and go through 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.440 everybody's traffic because they honestly don't have time to UM 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.360 and you know, especially in this economic climate, they don't 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.320 have enough money to pay all the people it would 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.720 take to read every packet. Yeah, they're they're not. They're 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.920 not looking at your emails necessarily to see what you're 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.360 sending to your high school crush or whatever. Um, they're 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.160 really looking for massive amounts of traffic and then wondering 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:07.920 what they should do about it without getting caught by 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.800 the FCC. No wait, I mean finding ways of making 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.240 sure they're bannedwidth usage stays nice and end level. You know, 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.880 this isn't the first time people have been talking about 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.720 packet sniffing. This has been available for years and years, 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.040 and even in the early two thousand's, the FBI had 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:29.440 this UM, this implementation they wanted to run. We even 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:37.240 have an article about it UM called Carnivore gipes and UM. Yeah. Anyway, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.400 Carnivore was this thing that was essentially a piece of 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.680 hardware that they wanted to install at I s p 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.880 S and UM. It would it would intercept messages and 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.720 uh you know, split them apart, look at the content 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.560 on one side, to look at general statistics on the other, 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.320 and basically they would be able to get a lot 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.840 of information about you and and about the traffic you 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.720 were sending in. I think it was it was seen 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:06.000 as a national security initiative. However, Uh, the title of 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.600 our article here at how stuff works is how Carnivore worked. 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:13.040 So it is not something that is in UM implementation now. 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.480 But the packet sniffing technology has been around for you know, 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:22.280 many years now, so that's certainly not a new issue. Um. So, 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:24.600 well that's good. That was a good discussion about packet 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:26.960 sniff you anything else to add to that. No, well, 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:31.520 you know what that means. It's time for listener mail. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:39.600 Oh my, okay, so today's listening mail. My name is 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.080 John Allen is Sorry, I'm totally mispronounced your last name, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.600 John from Texas, and I think you should talk about 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.639 the ongoing trial of the Pirate Day. I've been reading 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.280 up on it and find it to be really interesting 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.119 how the movie industry is behaving. So what John's referring 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.960 to kind of segways. You know, it works nicely with 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.080 the packets sniffing, does you think I think it's very 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.840 funny that you have that you choose that particular emails 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.400 to read on this particular podcast. Dolly, let's just say 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.760 that isn't chance Grant. So. Pirate Bay is one of 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.560 those torrent tracking services we were kind of talking about before. 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.719 Now here's the important thing to keep in mind. Pirate 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:19.040 Bay does not host files, right, It provides a tracking 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.240 service for torrans, So it's kind of like a search engine. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:26.240 Specifically for Torrance. So say you want to find a 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:31.960 copy of a public domain UM program that's out there somewhere, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.399 and you go on pirate Bay and you search for it, 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.720 and you find that there are copies out there by 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.919 other pirate Bay users. You could download the torrent that way, 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:41.919 and you would actually download bits and pieces from all 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.600 these different users until you had your own copy, And 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.480 if you chose, you could also participate so that other 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.840 users who would search for this file in the future 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:54.359 could also get hold of it. Or you could use 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.840 it to download movies and music that are copy under 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.480 copyright and you're violating the law and your a dirty, 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.600 dirty pirate. But except those are the dirty, dirty pirates 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.680 who are not being prosecuted right now. That's exactly right. 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.600 The users aren't the ones being prosecuted. It's the pirate 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.360 bay itself. Now. Pirate Base servers are all in Sweden. 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.159 And it turns out the United States government pressured the 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.560 Swedish government quite a bit to UM to go after 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.359 the pirate Bay and prosecute them, and uh. Eventually the 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:29.000 Swedish government capitulated and they brought a case against pirate 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.639 bay UM. There were two different major kinds of charges. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:38.720 There was the let's see, was it assisting copyright infringement charges? 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:43.520 And uh, let's see, the other one was assisting making 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:48.600 available copyrighted material, as seems kind of you know, weird 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.439 and and and vague, but that's the way it's worded. 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.560 So here's the thing. The prosecution did not understand how 0:19:55.600 --> 0:20:00.000 the pirate Bay worked. And the day after the Pirate Bay, 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.479 uh lawyer opened with the opening statement, half the charges 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.959 were dropped. Well, yeah, all the charges that had to 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.600 do specifically with assisting copyright infringement were dropped because it 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.720 just wasn't. They weren't making available any of these files. 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.639 They were just a tracking system. There's a lot of 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.800 attention being put on this right now because people are 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:22.920 you know, kind of falling into one camp or the other. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.960 Either come on, they're called the pirate Bay, what do 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.919 you expect? Or they're saying, no, the pirate Bay is 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:30.960 really just a search engine. If you go after the 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.080 Pirate Bay, you should go after Google because you can 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.439 find torrents on Google. You can use Google to find torrents. 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.360 You can use any search engine really to find these 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:44.240 sort of torrent files. It's just the pirate base specifically 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.879 tuned to find torrents. Then there's the revenue aspect, you know, 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.720 they're they're claiming that not only did they build the 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:56.720 site to to show people where you can download files illegally, 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.240 but they sold ads alongside it, and the the prosecution 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:03.840 is trying to get money back for for the revenue 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:08.440 that they made on the on the advertising, about a 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.920 hundred and eighty thousand dollars. I'm told, yeah, and again, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.280 this is like search advertising. You could argue, I mean 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.040 it's not. It's not that they're necessarily advertising these you know, 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.600 various movies and music as much as they're advertising these 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:26.480 search tool itself. Right, So I mean you're it's tricky, 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.719 and um, it's it's the other interesting thing is that 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.240 the prosecutions finding it very difficult to go after specific 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:35.840 people in the Pirate Bay because they don't have a 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:39.280 traditional hierarchy. There's not like one guy in charge. It's 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.560 a group of people who all pitch in and do work, 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:44.600 and when they say, you know what, we could use 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.480 this feature, someone will go out and build it. It's 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.080 not like, uh, the leader says, hey we need this, 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.240 you go do it. It's it's very much collective, and 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.560 the prosecutions finding it difficult to handle that aspect of 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.080 the Pirate Bay too. It's actually becoming sort of a 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.560 a circus over there in a way. And uh, as 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.600 we're recording this, they trial still ongoing, so we don't 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.159 know how it's going to turn out just yet. And 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.560 would explain why they were all wearing the big floppy shoes. 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:16.800 I was wondering about that. It's going to ask you. 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.080 I was just wondering why the defense all came in 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:23.640 one car. That is a good question. So anyway, now 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.360 that we've managed to get completely off track, to get 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:28.359 back on track, if you would like to learn more 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:30.960