1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,476 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 2: Matt Skogan was working on Wall Street eighty hours a week, 3 00:00:24,156 --> 00:00:28,356 Speaker 2: making good money, happily married a small town boy from Michigan, 4 00:00:28,676 --> 00:00:33,516 Speaker 2: made good. When he began to have a change of heart. 5 00:00:33,636 --> 00:00:35,596 Speaker 3: I went through a period of my life, a mini 6 00:00:35,636 --> 00:00:39,116 Speaker 3: existential crisis. My dad died in twenty thirteen. He had 7 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:42,716 Speaker 3: a cancer called multiple maloma. He was only sixty and 8 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:45,276 Speaker 3: then just two years after that, my mom passed away 9 00:00:45,276 --> 00:00:48,716 Speaker 3: from a different kind of cancer. She had breast cancer. 10 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:52,396 Speaker 3: And it kind of sent me into a period of 11 00:00:52,436 --> 00:00:55,676 Speaker 3: life where I just felt like, I love my work. 12 00:00:55,716 --> 00:00:58,476 Speaker 3: It's interesting, it's intellectually stimulating, I love the people through 13 00:00:58,516 --> 00:01:00,236 Speaker 3: my work. But I also felt this sense of like, 14 00:01:00,276 --> 00:01:01,636 Speaker 3: I'm at the end of the day, I'm showing up 15 00:01:01,636 --> 00:01:03,596 Speaker 3: to work every day to help a bank make more money. 16 00:01:03,876 --> 00:01:06,476 Speaker 3: I went through a season of pretty intense like prayer 17 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:08,676 Speaker 3: and discernment and just kind of feeling like I think 18 00:01:08,676 --> 00:01:10,036 Speaker 3: I'm supposed doing something else. 19 00:01:10,556 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 2: Scogan was on the board of the small Christian liberal 20 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:17,276 Speaker 2: arts school he'd gone to as an undergraduate, a place 21 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 2: called Hope College on the shores of Lake Michigan, and 22 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 2: just as his life was turning upside down, the school's 23 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:28,236 Speaker 2: president announced he was leaving. Scogan says that when he 24 00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:31,876 Speaker 2: heard the news, he had an intense feeling that this 25 00:01:32,276 --> 00:01:35,156 Speaker 2: was a job he was supposed to do. He thought 26 00:01:35,196 --> 00:01:37,836 Speaker 2: of the Mark Twain quote, the two most important days 27 00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:39,636 Speaker 2: in your life are the day you're born and the 28 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:44,356 Speaker 2: day you find out why. Scogan had no academic experience. 29 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:48,996 Speaker 2: He was a ridiculous long shot, but slowly he inched 30 00:01:49,036 --> 00:01:52,356 Speaker 2: forward in the process, and as he did, he realized 31 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:55,236 Speaker 2: that if it was actually going to happen, if he 32 00:01:55,316 --> 00:01:58,316 Speaker 2: were really going to be the president of a college, 33 00:01:58,356 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 2: he couldn't do what every other president was doing. 34 00:02:03,116 --> 00:02:05,636 Speaker 3: I had a couple of pretty formative experiences. There was 35 00:02:05,676 --> 00:02:07,516 Speaker 3: a moment when I was on an airplane on a 36 00:02:07,556 --> 00:02:09,636 Speaker 3: business trip and I was flying back to New York 37 00:02:09,676 --> 00:02:14,196 Speaker 3: from California, I think, and we were flying into JFK, 38 00:02:14,876 --> 00:02:17,076 Speaker 3: and I'm like half asleep on the airplane, and the 39 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 3: pilot comes on and he says, we're at thirty three 40 00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 3: thousand feet and we're beginning our descent into JFK. Thirty 41 00:02:22,556 --> 00:02:25,276 Speaker 3: three thousand at the time was the price of Hope's tuition, 42 00:02:25,676 --> 00:02:27,636 Speaker 3: And I just got this visual image in my head 43 00:02:27,676 --> 00:02:30,316 Speaker 3: of thirty three thousand going to zero. And then it 44 00:02:30,636 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 3: was three weeks later and I was having dinner with 45 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:36,476 Speaker 3: a friend and we were just talking about life, and 46 00:02:36,516 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 3: I told him that I was thinking about applying for 47 00:02:38,316 --> 00:02:40,956 Speaker 3: this job, and he asked me about home college, and 48 00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 3: he asked me about what I saw is the challenges 49 00:02:43,996 --> 00:02:46,036 Speaker 3: in higher ed and I've of course mentioned the cost, 50 00:02:46,756 --> 00:02:50,436 Speaker 3: and he just very flippantly and without thinking, he said, well, 51 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:52,996 Speaker 3: no one should have to pay for hope. And then 52 00:02:52,996 --> 00:02:54,876 Speaker 3: he repeated it, no one should have to pay for hope, 53 00:02:55,476 --> 00:02:57,836 Speaker 3: and he meant it as a joke, I think, and 54 00:02:57,876 --> 00:03:01,516 Speaker 3: we both laughed. But as I was laughing, like I realized, dang, 55 00:03:01,596 --> 00:03:04,596 Speaker 3: he just said something profoundly true. No one should have 56 00:03:04,636 --> 00:03:05,356 Speaker 3: to pay for hope. 57 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to U Revisionist History, 58 00:03:10,476 --> 00:03:15,276 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. Over the years, 59 00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:18,476 Speaker 2: on this podcast, we have talked about the strange goings 60 00:03:18,516 --> 00:03:24,356 Speaker 2: on in higher education, ridiculously fancy amenities, the elsat the absurd, 61 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:29,876 Speaker 2: US news rankings, multi billion dollar endowments. This episode is 62 00:03:29,916 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 2: about a very different kind of strange goings on, Matt 63 00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:41,276 Speaker 2: Skuggan's radical experiment Nobody should have to pay for Hope. 64 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 2: Hope is in a little town called Holland, just west 65 00:03:44,556 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 2: of Grand Rapids, which is called Holland because Dutch immigrants 66 00:03:48,236 --> 00:03:51,316 Speaker 2: settled there. The area still has a lot of tidy 67 00:03:51,476 --> 00:03:55,756 Speaker 2: Dutch practicality. The big local employers are the furniture makers 68 00:03:55,796 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 2: Herman Miller and Haworth. The campus is right in the 69 00:03:59,356 --> 00:04:02,116 Speaker 2: middle of town, a big, beautiful church at the center. 70 00:04:02,796 --> 00:04:05,876 Speaker 2: I got a campus tour from a towering Nigerian student 71 00:04:06,156 --> 00:04:10,236 Speaker 2: with the magnificently Nigerian first name of Mark Marvelous. I 72 00:04:10,276 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 2: sat in a campus coffee shop listening to a high 73 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:16,236 Speaker 2: spirited back and forth that began with the movies and 74 00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:20,156 Speaker 2: ended with scripture. The school was having a day long 75 00:04:20,196 --> 00:04:23,676 Speaker 2: conference to explain to the community what they were trying 76 00:04:23,676 --> 00:04:28,076 Speaker 2: to do. A student spoke first, a young woman named Madison, 77 00:04:28,596 --> 00:04:31,116 Speaker 2: a little nervous in front of the crowd. She'd made 78 00:04:31,116 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 2: some of the art hanging on the. 79 00:04:32,756 --> 00:04:33,676 Speaker 1: Walls around the room. 80 00:04:34,476 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 4: Hi. 81 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:39,476 Speaker 5: Everyone, good evening and thank you for attending what I 82 00:04:39,556 --> 00:04:44,436 Speaker 5: believe is a wonderful artistic representation of Hope Forward as 83 00:04:44,516 --> 00:04:48,036 Speaker 5: not only a vision but a reality. My name is 84 00:04:48,076 --> 00:04:51,036 Speaker 5: Madison and I have the honor of belonging to the 85 00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:52,956 Speaker 5: inaugural Hope Forward cohort. 86 00:04:53,796 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 2: Hope Forward was the name Skogan gave to his experiment. 87 00:04:57,836 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 2: Madison had made a print of a willow tree that 88 00:05:00,676 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 2: she said symbolized what the school had done for her. 89 00:05:04,236 --> 00:05:07,276 Speaker 5: Because of this gift, I feel free to pursue any 90 00:05:07,316 --> 00:05:10,956 Speaker 5: area of study without the burden excessive debt. This means 91 00:05:11,036 --> 00:05:13,596 Speaker 5: I am free to care about my community here and 92 00:05:13,836 --> 00:05:17,116 Speaker 5: later because I am and will be passionate about what 93 00:05:17,156 --> 00:05:17,476 Speaker 5: I do. 94 00:05:18,636 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 2: Then the writer Mitch album came to the podium. Album 95 00:05:22,956 --> 00:05:25,396 Speaker 2: was actually the reason I was there. He emailed me 96 00:05:25,436 --> 00:05:27,356 Speaker 2: out of the blue one day and told me about 97 00:05:27,396 --> 00:05:30,756 Speaker 2: what was happening in Holland. He drove over from Detroit, 98 00:05:30,916 --> 00:05:33,956 Speaker 2: where he lives, and kicked things off with a short 99 00:05:33,996 --> 00:05:37,156 Speaker 2: talk about why he's a Hope College believer. 100 00:05:37,916 --> 00:05:40,756 Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess I'm here in multiple capacities. I'm sort 101 00:05:40,796 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 6: of like a parent and proud to be And I'm 102 00:05:44,836 --> 00:05:46,516 Speaker 6: going to share with you for a couple of minutes 103 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:49,396 Speaker 6: how that came to be and why I do believe 104 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:52,836 Speaker 6: that this model works because I have seen it in 105 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 6: action many times in my life, and in fact, the 106 00:05:55,556 --> 00:05:58,116 Speaker 6: latter part of my professional life has kind of been 107 00:05:58,156 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 6: dedicated to this. 108 00:05:59,756 --> 00:06:03,516 Speaker 2: The model he was referring to was President Scogan's hope forward, 109 00:06:04,196 --> 00:06:05,396 Speaker 2: his grand experiment. 110 00:06:06,356 --> 00:06:14,316 Speaker 6: So honestly not been that charitable a person in the 111 00:06:14,356 --> 00:06:17,076 Speaker 6: first part of my career, not because I was against it. 112 00:06:17,116 --> 00:06:18,876 Speaker 1: I think I was just like many young people. 113 00:06:18,916 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 6: I was very wrapped up in my own success, of 114 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:24,596 Speaker 6: my own ambition, and then I got involved with some 115 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 6: of you were probably aware with an old professor of 116 00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:30,836 Speaker 6: mine who was dying from lu Gerrig's disease named Mary Schwartz, 117 00:06:31,396 --> 00:06:33,476 Speaker 6: and I visited with him every Tuesday. 118 00:06:34,316 --> 00:06:37,996 Speaker 2: Tuesdays with Maury was album's most famous book. It came 119 00:06:38,036 --> 00:06:40,236 Speaker 2: out in nineteen ninety seven. It's one of the best 120 00:06:40,236 --> 00:06:41,676 Speaker 2: selling memoirs of all time. 121 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,076 Speaker 6: I noticed that when people would come in and visit 122 00:06:45,116 --> 00:06:49,836 Speaker 6: with him, very quickly the conversation would change. They would 123 00:06:49,876 --> 00:06:52,516 Speaker 6: come in trying to cheer him up because he was 124 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 6: dying from this terminal illness, but within a couple of 125 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:59,556 Speaker 6: minutes he would start asking them about their work, their 126 00:06:59,556 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 6: love life, whatever, And an hour later they'd come out 127 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:02,756 Speaker 6: in tears and they'd say, you know, I try to 128 00:07:02,796 --> 00:07:04,876 Speaker 6: cheer him up, but next thing I know, I'm talking 129 00:07:04,876 --> 00:07:06,676 Speaker 6: to him, and he's asked me questions, and then he's 130 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:08,516 Speaker 6: really asking me questions, and I'm really then and as 131 00:07:08,636 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 6: I'm I'm crying, I. 132 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:12,316 Speaker 1: Tried to cheer him up. He ended up cheering me up. 133 00:07:12,356 --> 00:07:13,316 Speaker 1: He ended up comforting me. 134 00:07:13,316 --> 00:07:16,556 Speaker 6: And I asked him finally, after witnessing this so many times, 135 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:19,076 Speaker 6: I don't get it. You know, like you're the one 136 00:07:19,076 --> 00:07:22,956 Speaker 6: who's dying. Why don't you just say, let's not talk 137 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:26,916 Speaker 6: about your problems, Let's talk about my problems. And he said, Mitch, 138 00:07:26,916 --> 00:07:30,316 Speaker 6: why would I ever take from people like that? Taking 139 00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 6: just makes me feel like I'm dying. Giving makes me 140 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:40,196 Speaker 6: feel like I'm living. It's a profound little sentence and 141 00:07:40,236 --> 00:07:44,316 Speaker 6: also rhymes, so it's easy to remember. Giving makes you 142 00:07:44,356 --> 00:07:47,356 Speaker 6: feel like living. And I have never forgotten that moment, 143 00:07:47,396 --> 00:07:49,356 Speaker 6: nor have I ever forgotten that sentiment. 144 00:07:50,396 --> 00:07:54,316 Speaker 2: A small Christian college, a student talking about a willow tree. 145 00:07:54,596 --> 00:07:58,316 Speaker 2: A best selling writer of inspirational books, introduces the rhyming 146 00:07:58,356 --> 00:08:02,556 Speaker 2: catchphrase giving makes you feel like living. If the cynic 147 00:08:02,556 --> 00:08:04,916 Speaker 2: in you is bubbling to the surface right now, I 148 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 2: understand because these aren't the kinds of things we expect 149 00:08:07,796 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 2: to hear on college campuses. What about the fancy new 150 00:08:10,676 --> 00:08:14,036 Speaker 2: building opening, the expansion of the endowed prestigious center for 151 00:08:14,116 --> 00:08:17,636 Speaker 2: this and that, the glittering credentials of the incoming class. 152 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:19,796 Speaker 2: But by the end of the evening I kind of 153 00:08:19,796 --> 00:08:34,636 Speaker 2: wished every school sounded like this. Imagine that you had 154 00:08:34,716 --> 00:08:39,116 Speaker 2: never heard of higher education before, you had been living 155 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 2: on a desert island somewhere, and suddenly, once you finished 156 00:08:43,076 --> 00:08:46,556 Speaker 2: desert island high school, your parents decided what you needed 157 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:50,076 Speaker 2: was an American college degree. So you show up on 158 00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:52,916 Speaker 2: this thing called a campus and you ask your hosts 159 00:08:53,396 --> 00:08:56,396 Speaker 2: what am I to you, and they say, we think 160 00:08:56,396 --> 00:08:59,156 Speaker 2: of you as a student kind of, but also as 161 00:08:59,196 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 2: a customer, because this whole thing is going to cost 162 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:03,716 Speaker 2: you a lot of money, and we need to get paid. 163 00:09:04,436 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 2: How much you ask, well, it depends like whether you're 164 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,276 Speaker 2: good at things like fencing or rowing and how much 165 00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:13,116 Speaker 2: your parents make. But chances are you'll have to borrow 166 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 2: a lot to pay for your education. So you say, oh, 167 00:09:17,196 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 2: so I'm really like someone with a big mortgage. I'm 168 00:09:20,196 --> 00:09:24,716 Speaker 2: a debtor, and they say sure, but once you've graduated, 169 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:26,916 Speaker 2: we're going to call you every year to ask for 170 00:09:26,996 --> 00:09:29,516 Speaker 2: donations on the grounds that you are now a member 171 00:09:29,796 --> 00:09:33,436 Speaker 2: of our community. Your head is spinning at this point. 172 00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:37,636 Speaker 2: Oh really, what are those donations for. Well, it's for 173 00:09:37,676 --> 00:09:40,676 Speaker 2: this thing we invented called an endowment, which is a 174 00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:43,396 Speaker 2: big pile of cash that sits with a money manager 175 00:09:43,396 --> 00:09:45,916 Speaker 2: in New York, which we use as a symbol of 176 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:49,996 Speaker 2: how important we are. So you say, wait, I'm a student, 177 00:09:50,316 --> 00:09:53,196 Speaker 2: a customer, a debtor, and an investor in a Wall 178 00:09:53,236 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 2: Street hedge fund. Are all businesses in the United States? 179 00:09:56,756 --> 00:10:03,836 Speaker 2: This complicated? And they say, no, just higher education. This 180 00:10:04,076 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 2: arrangement struck Matt Skogan as deeply weird. He was a banker. 181 00:10:09,476 --> 00:10:12,516 Speaker 2: He came from a world where financial arrangements had precise 182 00:10:12,556 --> 00:10:18,636 Speaker 2: definitions gross sales, net revenue, IBITA earnings before interest, taxes, 183 00:10:18,676 --> 00:10:23,156 Speaker 2: and amortization. He was an outsider to this world. He 184 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:26,516 Speaker 2: didn't think like a college president. He doesn't even look 185 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 2: like a college president. He was thirty nine when he 186 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:33,036 Speaker 2: was hired, but looks even younger. I'm short and skinny. 187 00:10:33,196 --> 00:10:37,436 Speaker 2: He's shorter and skinnier. He has red hair and oversized 188 00:10:37,476 --> 00:10:40,556 Speaker 2: ears and looks and this reference would be lost to 189 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 2: all of you under the age of fifty A little 190 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:45,956 Speaker 2: like Ron Howard in Happy Days Later when we were 191 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:48,836 Speaker 2: chatting with a group of students. I asked what they 192 00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:49,996 Speaker 2: call him. 193 00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:52,476 Speaker 3: The summer I got here, I started saying, you should 194 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:54,876 Speaker 3: call me Matt because my name is Matt. And then 195 00:10:54,916 --> 00:10:57,476 Speaker 3: there was like an intervention. The dean of students came 196 00:10:57,516 --> 00:10:59,196 Speaker 3: and a couple other people came into my office and 197 00:10:59,236 --> 00:11:01,276 Speaker 3: they said, you can't have the students call you by 198 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:04,076 Speaker 3: your first name. It's disrespectful to the office of the president. 199 00:11:04,436 --> 00:11:06,276 Speaker 3: So I said, okay, so they call me presidents go 200 00:11:06,356 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 3: again to my face, they call me who knows what 201 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 3: they call me? Yes, daddies, Yeah, daddy, Sco. 202 00:11:13,596 --> 00:11:16,316 Speaker 1: Again, Sco daddy. 203 00:11:16,516 --> 00:11:19,076 Speaker 2: There aren't a lot of Sco daddies in the ranks 204 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:22,676 Speaker 2: of America's college presidents. When they picked you, was there 205 00:11:22,676 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 2: a sense that they were taking a chance. 206 00:11:25,156 --> 00:11:30,396 Speaker 3: Yes, well, there was definitely, since they were doing something unconventional, 207 00:11:30,916 --> 00:11:34,116 Speaker 3: so they were hiring a young non academic, But it 208 00:11:34,156 --> 00:11:36,916 Speaker 3: was coming from this premise of the board wanted to, 209 00:11:37,396 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 3: you know, a recognition that something needs to be done 210 00:11:39,556 --> 00:11:41,796 Speaker 3: in higher education. We need to try something different, and 211 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:44,596 Speaker 3: so they hired me and basically said you can do 212 00:11:44,636 --> 00:11:46,996 Speaker 3: anything you want except the status quo, Like we're hiring 213 00:11:47,076 --> 00:11:48,116 Speaker 3: you to do something different. 214 00:11:48,556 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 2: He took the job, moved into a big house near 215 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:53,996 Speaker 2: the church in the middle of campus, and started going 216 00:11:54,076 --> 00:11:58,836 Speaker 2: to the cafeteria and talking to students student, customer, debtor, 217 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 2: investor what effect he wondered did this have on them? 218 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:05,076 Speaker 3: And I have a handful of questions that I love 219 00:12:05,156 --> 00:12:07,276 Speaker 3: asking students. I like asking the same questions over and 220 00:12:07,276 --> 00:12:09,956 Speaker 3: over again because I get compare and contrast answers. And 221 00:12:09,996 --> 00:12:12,276 Speaker 3: one of the questions I always ask is what do 222 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:12,996 Speaker 3: you want. 223 00:12:12,796 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 1: To do after you graduate? And I always use the word. 224 00:12:15,076 --> 00:12:18,196 Speaker 3: Want, And what I get often as a response is 225 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:19,956 Speaker 3: what I want to do is different than what I 226 00:12:19,956 --> 00:12:22,556 Speaker 3: feel like I have to do. And I'll get students 227 00:12:22,596 --> 00:12:26,396 Speaker 3: say I want to do Doctors without Borders, or I 228 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:28,676 Speaker 3: want to do teach for America or the Peace Corps 229 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 3: or some ministry. But I've got fifty thousand dollars of 230 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 3: student loan debt, so I'm going to become a whatever 231 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:37,636 Speaker 3: consultant to pay off my student loan debt, and then 232 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:40,916 Speaker 3: I'll pursue the impact I feel like I want to have. 233 00:12:41,636 --> 00:12:44,836 Speaker 2: It seemed to Scogan that you can't do both. You 234 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:47,276 Speaker 2: can't ask a student to engage in the pursuit of 235 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:49,876 Speaker 2: truth and at the same time have them wake up 236 00:12:49,916 --> 00:12:52,036 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night with a sense of dread. 237 00:12:52,996 --> 00:12:56,196 Speaker 2: Hope has an accounting program, and Scogan was a big 238 00:12:56,236 --> 00:12:59,196 Speaker 2: fan of accounting, but he felt the way things were 239 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 2: accounting would always win out over philosophy, which didn't seem right. 240 00:13:04,916 --> 00:13:05,836 Speaker 1: I actually think. 241 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:10,516 Speaker 3: Students don't come to college with a life plan. They 242 00:13:10,556 --> 00:13:13,476 Speaker 3: come to college with questions, lots and lots of questions 243 00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:17,196 Speaker 3: about their purpose. And it might be the case that 244 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:21,236 Speaker 3: studying philosophy or studying the classics is precisely how you're 245 00:13:21,276 --> 00:13:23,596 Speaker 3: going to find your purpose. And yet if you're coming 246 00:13:23,596 --> 00:13:26,316 Speaker 3: with fifty thousand dollars of debt, you might get skewed 247 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:28,476 Speaker 3: into or you might get you might feel nudge into 248 00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 3: studying accounting, and therefore maybe miss maybe miss something that's 249 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 3: in your purpose. 250 00:13:34,676 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 2: Okay, back to your college search. After Desert Island High, 251 00:13:39,556 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 2: you come to America, and what you discover on your 252 00:13:42,236 --> 00:13:46,036 Speaker 2: college tour is how strangely similar a lot of colleges are. 253 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 2: William's College looks like Amherst, which in turn looks like 254 00:13:50,436 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 2: William and Mary, which looks like a smaller version of 255 00:13:53,476 --> 00:13:57,356 Speaker 2: the University of Virginia. Everybody wants to be the same thing, 256 00:13:57,756 --> 00:14:01,396 Speaker 2: the same look, and the same business model, find as 257 00:14:01,436 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 2: many full paying students as they can and charge you 258 00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:07,916 Speaker 2: as much tuition as they can get away with. Why 259 00:14:07,956 --> 00:14:10,476 Speaker 2: are all the colleges the same? My dad taught at 260 00:14:10,516 --> 00:14:13,196 Speaker 2: the University of Waterloo in southern Ontario, and they had 261 00:14:13,236 --> 00:14:15,836 Speaker 2: what they called a co op program, with a college 262 00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:19,756 Speaker 2: arranged with local employers to hire students join their off term. 263 00:14:20,356 --> 00:14:23,116 Speaker 2: Everybody was on co op. To give you a flavor 264 00:14:23,116 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 2: of how it works, I asked a student named Spencer 265 00:14:25,756 --> 00:14:28,436 Speaker 2: who just graduated from Waterloo to give me a break 266 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:31,636 Speaker 2: down of his finances. This is what Spencer told me. 267 00:14:32,476 --> 00:14:36,636 Speaker 2: Total for year costs tuition plus room and board were 268 00:14:36,676 --> 00:14:39,076 Speaker 2: a hundred and twenty two thousand dollars. In that time, 269 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:41,836 Speaker 2: he did six co op terms working with a government 270 00:14:41,956 --> 00:14:45,316 Speaker 2: organization and several firms in his field, and they paid 271 00:14:45,356 --> 00:14:48,276 Speaker 2: him a total of eighty one thousand dollars. So his 272 00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:52,156 Speaker 2: overall cost out of pocket for getting an engineering degree 273 00:14:52,756 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 2: was forty thousand. That's not bad. Plus, and I'm quoting 274 00:14:57,156 --> 00:14:59,756 Speaker 2: here from his email, I'll add that a good thing 275 00:14:59,836 --> 00:15:02,516 Speaker 2: is that the majority of my classmates were graduating with 276 00:15:02,596 --> 00:15:05,196 Speaker 2: a job lined up due to the co op program 277 00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:09,996 Speaker 2: and industry connections. Now, do I think co op programs 278 00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:13,596 Speaker 2: could work everywhere and solve every problem? No, of course not. 279 00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:17,076 Speaker 2: But the University of Waterloo has been running this program 280 00:15:17,156 --> 00:15:22,356 Speaker 2: for almost seventy years. It's a huge success. You would think, 281 00:15:22,516 --> 00:15:25,636 Speaker 2: wouldn't you that versions of the idea would have spread 282 00:15:25,676 --> 00:15:28,996 Speaker 2: everywhere by now that every school that has a problem 283 00:15:28,996 --> 00:15:31,796 Speaker 2: with students graduating with lots of debt, which by the 284 00:15:31,796 --> 00:15:35,316 Speaker 2: way is nearly every school would have experimented with ways 285 00:15:35,356 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 2: of connecting with local businesses to give their students work 286 00:15:38,476 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 2: experience enlighten their debt burden. Has it happened? 287 00:15:43,196 --> 00:15:43,396 Speaker 7: No? 288 00:15:44,236 --> 00:15:47,716 Speaker 2: Why Because college presidents have their heads in the clouds. 289 00:15:49,316 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 3: If you kind of look at the trajectory of higher education, 290 00:15:52,436 --> 00:15:55,076 Speaker 3: it's just not going to end well. This trajectory of 291 00:15:55,116 --> 00:15:57,356 Speaker 3: like tuition goes up by three to five percent every year, 292 00:15:57,796 --> 00:15:59,636 Speaker 3: it's just not going to work. And so this sense 293 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:03,516 Speaker 3: of like somebody has to do something at the end 294 00:16:03,556 --> 00:16:04,876 Speaker 3: of the day. The thing I love most about this 295 00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:08,996 Speaker 3: place is our name Hope. Hope by definition means that 296 00:16:09,516 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 3: we believe problems are solvable, and that's what we try 297 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:15,156 Speaker 3: to prepare our students to be Hope bringers, people who 298 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 3: go out in the world and run toward not a way, 299 00:16:17,316 --> 00:16:19,796 Speaker 3: but run toward the biggest challenges they can find. And 300 00:16:19,876 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 3: that's why we exist. And we felt like and the 301 00:16:22,556 --> 00:16:25,276 Speaker 3: board felt like, who better than a place called Hope 302 00:16:25,316 --> 00:16:28,236 Speaker 3: to run toward this big societal challenge which is the 303 00:16:28,276 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 3: funding model of higher education. 304 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:33,876 Speaker 2: So Scogan made a radical decision, Let's make it so 305 00:16:33,996 --> 00:16:37,476 Speaker 2: students don't have to think about money at all during 306 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:40,156 Speaker 2: their four years of college and put in place a 307 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:42,916 Speaker 2: pay it forward model. Will you give back to the 308 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:47,476 Speaker 2: college after you've graduated. That's the program that Scogan calls 309 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:51,676 Speaker 2: Hope Forward. To apply, you write an essay describing an 310 00:16:51,716 --> 00:16:54,756 Speaker 2: area of hopelessness to which you want to bring hope. 311 00:16:55,276 --> 00:16:58,116 Speaker 2: They started small. After the first two years they have 312 00:16:58,116 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 2: a total of fifty eight students in the program. The 313 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:04,036 Speaker 2: goal is to enroll one hundred freshmen annually within the 314 00:17:04,076 --> 00:17:07,196 Speaker 2: next few years and keep the program growing until it 315 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:07,956 Speaker 2: covers everyone. 316 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:11,956 Speaker 3: And you don't pay anything. You don't pay anything for tuition. 317 00:17:12,956 --> 00:17:15,676 Speaker 3: Sign We call it a covenant. It's basically a commitment. 318 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:17,236 Speaker 3: I sign it on behalf of the college and then 319 00:17:17,236 --> 00:17:19,756 Speaker 3: the student signs it, So we're entering into this sort 320 00:17:19,796 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 3: of covenantal relationship, not a transactional agreement. It's not a contract, 321 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:25,916 Speaker 3: it's not a legal contract, but it's this relationship with 322 00:17:26,276 --> 00:17:29,756 Speaker 3: mutual commitment. And the commitment we're making as an institution 323 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:31,396 Speaker 3: is we're saying we're going to give you a great 324 00:17:31,476 --> 00:17:34,836 Speaker 3: education and then launch you into a life of impact afterwards. 325 00:17:34,876 --> 00:17:37,396 Speaker 3: And the commitment the student is making is they're going 326 00:17:37,436 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 3: to take their education seriously and then they're going to 327 00:17:40,156 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 3: give something to the college every year after they graduate. 328 00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:46,076 Speaker 3: We don't specify an amount, we don't suggest an amount, 329 00:17:46,516 --> 00:17:48,396 Speaker 3: nothing like that, because we want it to truly be 330 00:17:48,516 --> 00:17:50,716 Speaker 3: a gift, a gift that's given out of generosity, and 331 00:17:50,756 --> 00:17:52,356 Speaker 3: we don't want it to feel like it's a different 332 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:54,716 Speaker 3: flavor of a student loan bill. Like we're trying to 333 00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:56,716 Speaker 3: move away from a system that's based on bill paying 334 00:17:56,756 --> 00:17:59,156 Speaker 3: and replace it with a system that's based on gift giving, 335 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:03,076 Speaker 3: so that the relationship with students is not a transactional 336 00:18:03,076 --> 00:18:05,116 Speaker 3: one at all, but rather a relationship based at its 337 00:18:05,116 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 3: core around generosity and gratitude. 338 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 2: The math behind it pay it Forward system is, to 339 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:15,356 Speaker 2: say the least daunting. Problem Number one is the transition period. 340 00:18:15,956 --> 00:18:18,996 Speaker 2: A school like Hope takes in about fifty five million 341 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:22,596 Speaker 2: dollars intuition. If you say to your students, don't pay 342 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:25,196 Speaker 2: anything until later, then you have to come up with 343 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:27,876 Speaker 2: fifty five million dollars every year until the pay it 344 00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:31,836 Speaker 2: forward money comes trickling in. If Hope Forward covered everyone, 345 00:18:32,276 --> 00:18:34,556 Speaker 2: the school would need about a billion dollars to handle 346 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:39,036 Speaker 2: that transition period. Problem number two is what happens after 347 00:18:39,236 --> 00:18:42,636 Speaker 2: the transition period. How do you know that Hope Forward 348 00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:45,516 Speaker 2: graduates will give back an amount equal to the cost 349 00:18:45,556 --> 00:18:49,516 Speaker 2: of their education? Scogan freely admits he doesn't. 350 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:52,476 Speaker 3: Some may give far less than that, some may give 351 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:55,516 Speaker 3: way more than that. I think that's another reason why 352 00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:57,636 Speaker 3: we decided to not put a specific amount on it. 353 00:18:57,676 --> 00:18:59,796 Speaker 3: If we say you've made a commitment to give, and 354 00:18:59,836 --> 00:19:02,116 Speaker 3: we suggest this amount in order to pay off what 355 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 3: you would have paid through tuition, well then people give 356 00:19:04,396 --> 00:19:07,676 Speaker 3: that amount, presumably. But by not putting an amount, some 357 00:19:07,716 --> 00:19:09,836 Speaker 3: people may give way more than they would have paid 358 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:11,916 Speaker 3: through tuition, and others will give less. And I think 359 00:19:11,956 --> 00:19:14,556 Speaker 3: what this model does is it gives us as an institution, 360 00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 3: we're highly incentivized to help our students be successful. The 361 00:19:18,076 --> 00:19:20,676 Speaker 3: more successful they are, the more opportunities they'll have to give. 362 00:19:21,396 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 3: And likewise, for our students, you know, it's kind of 363 00:19:24,276 --> 00:19:26,676 Speaker 3: like the onus is on them when they're in their 364 00:19:26,716 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 3: earnings years. Then it's up to them to determine how 365 00:19:29,716 --> 00:19:32,596 Speaker 3: important their education was in launching them into their career, 366 00:19:33,156 --> 00:19:35,796 Speaker 3: and they're sort of then paying them what they think 367 00:19:35,796 --> 00:19:37,236 Speaker 3: this was worth. And it's you know, I think it's 368 00:19:37,316 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 3: up to us then to make the education so valuable 369 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:42,116 Speaker 3: that they're grateful for it after they graduate. 370 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:44,076 Speaker 2: You are stealing into the unknown. 371 00:19:44,356 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 1: Oh totally. 372 00:19:46,276 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 2: Is Matt Skogan crazy? Maybe, But I have to say 373 00:19:51,076 --> 00:19:54,756 Speaker 2: that I'm an optimist on Hope Forward. First, I think 374 00:19:54,796 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 2: that Scogan is right that the success of the program 375 00:19:57,716 --> 00:20:01,356 Speaker 2: depends on the school convincing its graduates that their education 376 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:05,436 Speaker 2: was worth something. Although it's early, the evidence so far 377 00:20:05,556 --> 00:20:08,956 Speaker 2: is encouraging. The students admitted into Hope Forward as a 378 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:12,876 Speaker 2: group have slightly lower academic credentials coming into the school 379 00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:15,916 Speaker 2: than the rest of their freshman class, but after their 380 00:20:15,916 --> 00:20:20,876 Speaker 2: first year they're outperforming their non Hope Forward peers. There's 381 00:20:20,916 --> 00:20:25,556 Speaker 2: something different about your attitude towards school once you're inside 382 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:31,756 Speaker 2: the gratitude generosity loop. Second thing, most of the students 383 00:20:31,756 --> 00:20:33,996 Speaker 2: at Hope grew up in the church, and this is 384 00:20:34,036 --> 00:20:37,156 Speaker 2: how a church works, right. You don't pay church tuition 385 00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 2: at the door. Sometimes churches encourage you to tithe a 386 00:20:40,916 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 2: tenth of your income, but most times you just give 387 00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 2: whatever you can and the congregation and the preacher trust 388 00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:50,436 Speaker 2: in God that whatever comes in from the offering on 389 00:20:50,476 --> 00:20:53,316 Speaker 2: Sunday morning will cover the expenses for the rest of 390 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:53,716 Speaker 2: the week. 391 00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 8: I remember one of the things that presidents going inside 392 00:20:57,076 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 8: was that we're trying to fund higher education than way 393 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:04,236 Speaker 8: that we fund churches, which is through craft funding, And 394 00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:08,076 Speaker 8: I felt like that metaphor helps it make a lot 395 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 8: more sense to me. 396 00:21:09,916 --> 00:21:11,956 Speaker 2: I met with a group of Hope Forward students at 397 00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 2: one point. This was a sophomore named Olivia. Pay it 398 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:18,716 Speaker 2: Forward made sense to her conceptually, the. 399 00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 4: Maybea the church is like you give what you can 400 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:25,116 Speaker 4: when you can, and you give because you want to 401 00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:27,716 Speaker 4: and because you believe in the mission of the church. 402 00:21:27,756 --> 00:21:31,676 Speaker 4: And I feel like that's a really great metaphor that 403 00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:35,516 Speaker 4: helps me understand like what we're doing here and want 404 00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:37,436 Speaker 4: a purpose of it is. So it's the same idea. 405 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 2: Madison was part of the group too, the same Madison 406 00:21:41,356 --> 00:21:43,076 Speaker 2: who spoke with the Mitch album reception. 407 00:21:44,076 --> 00:21:48,476 Speaker 9: I feel like, once you're given someone's generous towards you, 408 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 9: it is so much easier to be generous towards others. 409 00:21:51,356 --> 00:21:54,476 Speaker 9: And that's also how I think of God's love. When 410 00:21:54,836 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 9: I experienced God's love through other people, it's so much 411 00:21:57,516 --> 00:22:00,276 Speaker 9: easier for me to share that love, like with some 412 00:22:00,556 --> 00:22:04,116 Speaker 9: other people, with other people. And I just feel like 413 00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:07,836 Speaker 9: it's the whole thing. Is can be that it's meant 414 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:12,076 Speaker 9: to be contagious, So generosity is easier when someone has 415 00:22:12,076 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 9: shown generosity towards you. 416 00:22:14,676 --> 00:22:18,316 Speaker 2: Third thing, and maybe the most important thing, Why do 417 00:22:18,356 --> 00:22:21,516 Speaker 2: we assume that giving out of the spirit of giving 418 00:22:22,076 --> 00:22:25,076 Speaker 2: is hard? This is a little bit of a tangent, 419 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:27,956 Speaker 2: but those of you who are regular listeners to revisionist 420 00:22:27,956 --> 00:22:32,156 Speaker 2: history will know the special antipathy I have for Princeton University, 421 00:22:32,916 --> 00:22:35,996 Speaker 2: a school with eight thousand, four hundred and seventy eight 422 00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:42,596 Speaker 2: students and an endowment of thirty six billion dollars. Princeton's 423 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 2: endowment is so large that in nine of the last 424 00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:50,236 Speaker 2: eleven years, its investment earnings had been greater than its 425 00:22:50,636 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 2: entire operating budget to give you a flavor of this, 426 00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:57,356 Speaker 2: and forgive me because this gets me so riled up. 427 00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:01,636 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, Princeton made a three point seven 428 00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:06,156 Speaker 2: to seven billion dollar return on its endowment, but the 429 00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:10,996 Speaker 2: school's annual budget was just under two billion, meaning they 430 00:23:10,996 --> 00:23:14,476 Speaker 2: could cover all their expenses just on the check they 431 00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 2: get at the end of the year from their wealth 432 00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:20,276 Speaker 2: managers on Wall Street and still have two billion dollars left. 433 00:23:21,356 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 2: In the previous episode, I handed out the first of 434 00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:28,596 Speaker 2: the Revisionist History Prizes, which honor extraordinary performances by elite 435 00:23:28,596 --> 00:23:33,316 Speaker 2: college administrators. The inaugural prize was the George Santo's Memorial 436 00:23:33,356 --> 00:23:37,276 Speaker 2: Award for Egregiously Deceptive sell Promotion, which went to Columbia 437 00:23:37,476 --> 00:23:41,516 Speaker 2: for their brazen manipulation of their US News rankings. Well, 438 00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:45,476 Speaker 2: I have yet another prize to award, the Perpetual Motion 439 00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:48,276 Speaker 2: Award for the school that comes closest to running on 440 00:23:48,316 --> 00:23:52,996 Speaker 2: its own power forever, and the clear winner here is Princeton. 441 00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:56,516 Speaker 2: I did a little blog post about this, and let 442 00:23:56,516 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 2: me quote from myself here. Princeton could let in every 443 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:04,236 Speaker 2: student for free. The university administrators could tell the US 444 00:24:04,316 --> 00:24:07,996 Speaker 2: government and all of its funding agencies. It's cool, we 445 00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 2: got this. They could take out the cash registers in 446 00:24:10,916 --> 00:24:14,356 Speaker 2: the cafeteria, hand out free parking to all visitors, give 447 00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:18,196 Speaker 2: away Princeton sweatshirts on Nassau Street, and fire their entire 448 00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 2: accounts receivable staff, and their entire fundraising staff. Tomorrow, they 449 00:24:23,956 --> 00:24:26,516 Speaker 2: could say to every one of the hard working professors 450 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:29,916 Speaker 2: on their staff, you never have to spend even a 451 00:24:30,076 --> 00:24:35,476 Speaker 2: second writing a grand proposal. Again, free at last, Free 452 00:24:35,876 --> 00:24:43,276 Speaker 2: at last. But here's the thing. Even though by any 453 00:24:43,396 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 2: rational measure, Princeton no longer needs to raise any more money, 454 00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 2: the alumnia of Princeton still give money to Princeton. A 455 00:24:51,476 --> 00:24:54,396 Speaker 2: higher percentage of Princeton graduates give money back to their 456 00:24:54,436 --> 00:24:58,156 Speaker 2: school than any school in the country. A Wall Street 457 00:24:58,196 --> 00:25:01,076 Speaker 2: guy named James Ya, in fact, just gave Princeton so 458 00:25:01,276 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 2: many millions of dollars that Princeton opened a brand new 459 00:25:04,836 --> 00:25:09,036 Speaker 2: residence hall called, wait for it, Yay College. 460 00:25:09,556 --> 00:25:12,476 Speaker 10: Yay College will help advance the expansion of the student 461 00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:16,396 Speaker 10: body so that additional high achieving students will realize the 462 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:20,756 Speaker 10: benefits of a Princeton education, enhance the diversity and vitality 463 00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:23,676 Speaker 10: of our campus, and go on to contribute to society 464 00:25:23,716 --> 00:25:24,556 Speaker 10: after graduation. 465 00:25:25,276 --> 00:25:30,316 Speaker 2: This is complete gibberish. The sense of community that a 466 00:25:30,356 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 2: college gives to its students has nothing to do with 467 00:25:34,476 --> 00:25:37,796 Speaker 2: the architectural design of the dorms. This is the way 468 00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:41,476 Speaker 2: the Four Seasons talks about a new hotel. But here's 469 00:25:41,516 --> 00:25:45,316 Speaker 2: the thing. Mister Yea, a very very smart man who 470 00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:48,356 Speaker 2: graduated with a physics degree from Princeton and went on 471 00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:51,756 Speaker 2: to make many, many billions on Wall Street, believes it 472 00:25:51,796 --> 00:25:54,636 Speaker 2: to be true. So true in fact, that he got 473 00:25:54,676 --> 00:25:58,036 Speaker 2: into his Bentley, loaded up the trunk with coals and 474 00:25:58,156 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 2: drove them down I ninety five to Newcastle. And if 475 00:26:02,516 --> 00:26:06,076 Speaker 2: you don't understand that reference, may I refer you to 476 00:26:06,116 --> 00:26:09,596 Speaker 2: mister Google. My point is, we have plenty of evidence 477 00:26:09,636 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 2: that smart people will give huge amounts of money to 478 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:16,036 Speaker 2: their alma maters for the stupidest of reasons. Why do 479 00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:18,836 Speaker 2: we find it hard to believe smart people will give 480 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:21,476 Speaker 2: small amounts of money to their alma maters. 481 00:26:21,516 --> 00:26:22,636 Speaker 1: For the best of reasons. 482 00:26:23,276 --> 00:26:27,076 Speaker 2: Or, to put it a little more charitably, maybe Mitchabolm 483 00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 2: was right. Giving makes you feel like living. Matt Skogan 484 00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:35,276 Speaker 2: was sitting in on my meeting with the students he 485 00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:36,836 Speaker 2: didn't speak until the very end. 486 00:26:38,396 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 3: There's this Lylan Matthew whit says, freely you have received, 487 00:26:42,596 --> 00:26:46,436 Speaker 3: not freely give. And this is where I think there's 488 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:51,276 Speaker 3: this crazy sense in higher education where most people know 489 00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:53,996 Speaker 3: that not everyone has access to a great education, but 490 00:26:54,076 --> 00:26:56,836 Speaker 3: there's this sense in which it must be the case 491 00:26:56,836 --> 00:26:59,076 Speaker 3: that ultimately those who do get access to a great 492 00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:03,196 Speaker 3: education somehow deserve it, like this meritocracy. And it just 493 00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 3: feels like that's like meritocracy gone totally off the rails. 494 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 3: At the end of the day, a Christian does believe 495 00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:12,316 Speaker 3: that anyone deserves a good life, like if we really 496 00:27:12,316 --> 00:27:14,916 Speaker 3: got what we deserve, we'd all be s crude. A 497 00:27:14,996 --> 00:27:17,636 Speaker 3: Christian believes that anything we have that's good is a 498 00:27:17,676 --> 00:27:20,716 Speaker 3: gift of unmerited favorite from God. And I think what 499 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:22,916 Speaker 3: you're hearing from these students is like this profound sense 500 00:27:22,956 --> 00:27:27,676 Speaker 3: of we're ready to just live into that. I heard 501 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:30,956 Speaker 3: somebody once to describe generosity as this mindset of circulation, 502 00:27:31,196 --> 00:27:32,756 Speaker 3: like you take a book out of the library and 503 00:27:32,796 --> 00:27:34,396 Speaker 3: you know it's not yours. You're just going to read 504 00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 3: the book, and then you're going to give it back 505 00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 3: to the library so that somebody else could read it, 506 00:27:37,596 --> 00:27:39,316 Speaker 3: And I think that's the way a Christian ought to 507 00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:41,796 Speaker 3: think about everything we have, everything we own, like God 508 00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 3: gave us stuff just so that we could circulate it. 509 00:27:45,196 --> 00:27:47,636 Speaker 3: When God God blesses Abraham and the Old Testament, and 510 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:50,076 Speaker 3: he says very clearly why he blesses Abraham. He says, 511 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 3: I've blessed you so that you can be a blessing. 512 00:27:52,876 --> 00:27:54,476 Speaker 3: And I think that's the way Christians out of you. 513 00:27:54,596 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 3: Everything we have, like everything we have is this unmerited gift, 514 00:27:57,156 --> 00:27:59,236 Speaker 3: and then we're just gonna radically give it to the 515 00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:01,036 Speaker 3: world so that we can be a blessing with the 516 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:04,436 Speaker 3: ways we've been blessed. And I'm putting words in your mouth, 517 00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 3: but I feel like I heard that from your stories 518 00:28:07,396 --> 00:28:10,036 Speaker 3: in a pretty powerful way. You guys are amazing. 519 00:28:10,196 --> 00:28:10,716 Speaker 4: Thanks. 520 00:28:11,796 --> 00:28:12,036 Speaker 1: Here. 521 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,956 Speaker 2: By way of contrast, is a passage in the commencement 522 00:28:16,036 --> 00:28:20,236 Speaker 2: speech of the President of Harvard Jue Faust in twenty eighteen. 523 00:28:21,196 --> 00:28:24,116 Speaker 2: She has the entire graduating class in front of her. 524 00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:26,996 Speaker 2: Her goal is to give them words to inspire them 525 00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:30,396 Speaker 2: on their journey into the greater world, and then she 526 00:28:30,436 --> 00:28:36,036 Speaker 2: starts listing the unprecedented headwinds at Harvard. The institution had faced. 527 00:28:36,116 --> 00:28:39,396 Speaker 2: As it sought to educate the very best and the brightest. 528 00:28:40,196 --> 00:28:45,556 Speaker 7: We have faced a political and policy environment increasingly hostile 529 00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:52,836 Speaker 7: to expertise and skeptical about higher education. The unprecedented endowment 530 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:57,876 Speaker 7: tax passed last December. Will we estimate impose on us 531 00:28:57,996 --> 00:29:02,676 Speaker 7: elevee next year equivalent to two thousand dollars per student? 532 00:29:03,916 --> 00:29:08,676 Speaker 2: Holy Toledo, they have dared to tax our fifty six 533 00:29:09,636 --> 00:29:14,916 Speaker 2: billion dollar endownment. I don't know under the circumstances. I'd 534 00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:21,596 Speaker 2: rather ride with Skodaddy. I want to play for you. 535 00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:25,796 Speaker 2: The end of Mitch Album's speech at the Hope College reception. 536 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:30,356 Speaker 2: He stood at the front of the room, slight and unprepossessing, 537 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:34,116 Speaker 2: big head of black hair, casually dressed. People are standing 538 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:37,196 Speaker 2: and milling around and eating canopies. And he starts to 539 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:40,556 Speaker 2: talk about how this whole idea of giving makes you 540 00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 2: feel like living, taught to him by Maurice Schwartz, slowly 541 00:29:44,316 --> 00:29:48,316 Speaker 2: took over his life. He started a scholarship fund that 542 00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:51,796 Speaker 2: grew and grew, then a charity to work with the homeless, 543 00:29:52,276 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 2: and then finally the project that has occupied him ever since. 544 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 6: And in two thousand and ten, h I heard about 545 00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:06,076 Speaker 6: the earthquake in Haiti, and I'd never been to Haiti, 546 00:30:07,116 --> 00:30:09,076 Speaker 6: probably couldn't find it that easily on a map. 547 00:30:09,756 --> 00:30:13,276 Speaker 2: He heard that the earthquake had destroyed an orphanage, so 548 00:30:13,316 --> 00:30:15,676 Speaker 2: he got on a plane and flew to Haiti. 549 00:30:16,716 --> 00:30:18,956 Speaker 6: And what I saw there will never leave my mind. 550 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:22,276 Speaker 6: I'm sure many of you remember that earthquake. It was devastating. 551 00:30:22,516 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 6: In forty five seconds, it killed nearly three percent. 552 00:30:26,636 --> 00:30:27,716 Speaker 1: Of Haiti's population. 553 00:30:28,916 --> 00:30:32,236 Speaker 6: Of its population, can you imagine in America that would 554 00:30:32,236 --> 00:30:36,956 Speaker 6: be about nine million people dead and left about ten 555 00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:38,596 Speaker 6: percent of its population homeless. 556 00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:41,316 Speaker 2: The orphanage was in ruins. 557 00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:44,516 Speaker 6: And the toilets were a little bit more than holes 558 00:30:44,516 --> 00:30:47,636 Speaker 6: in the ground, and just behind them were fields. Prior 559 00:30:47,676 --> 00:30:51,316 Speaker 6: to that were fields where kids would use rocks to 560 00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:55,036 Speaker 6: bang on other rocks so that the rats would run 561 00:30:55,076 --> 00:30:56,756 Speaker 6: away if they had to go to the bathroom at night, 562 00:30:56,796 --> 00:30:58,716 Speaker 6: and then they would use the rock for toilet paper. 563 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:02,196 Speaker 6: So we had our hands, our work cut out for us, 564 00:31:02,196 --> 00:31:05,156 Speaker 6: and I began to go back with some guys from Detroit, 565 00:31:05,796 --> 00:31:09,116 Speaker 6: and we had an idea to fix the place up. 566 00:31:09,796 --> 00:31:12,676 Speaker 1: Now. The thing is what stuck with me the most, with. 567 00:31:12,716 --> 00:31:15,996 Speaker 6: The kids, the kids that were there and their smiles 568 00:31:16,236 --> 00:31:20,356 Speaker 6: and their joy, and their faith and their belief that 569 00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:24,636 Speaker 6: things could get better. Those kids were the reason that 570 00:31:24,676 --> 00:31:27,556 Speaker 6: I came back and came back, and came back and 571 00:31:27,596 --> 00:31:31,956 Speaker 6: came back. Every single month since February of twenty ten, 572 00:31:32,196 --> 00:31:35,076 Speaker 6: for the last thirteen years, I've been in Haiti at 573 00:31:35,076 --> 00:31:38,476 Speaker 6: that orphanage, and we began to build it up with 574 00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:42,356 Speaker 6: guys I brought down from Detroit again. All I did 575 00:31:42,476 --> 00:31:45,836 Speaker 6: was ask they didn't have to pay anybody. They all 576 00:31:45,916 --> 00:31:48,716 Speaker 6: came as volunteers, and we built the first kitchen and 577 00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:52,316 Speaker 6: the first showers and all things that didn't exist there before, 578 00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:58,356 Speaker 6: and we began to grow. We got bigger, and we 579 00:31:58,396 --> 00:32:00,836 Speaker 6: got bigger, and we got bigger. 580 00:32:02,636 --> 00:32:06,356 Speaker 2: One of America's most successful writers has been going to Haiti, 581 00:32:06,836 --> 00:32:09,316 Speaker 2: a place that the rest of the world has all 582 00:32:09,316 --> 00:32:13,876 Speaker 2: but given up on. He's gone every month for thirteen 583 00:32:13,956 --> 00:32:17,116 Speaker 2: years with a group of his friends from Detroit, driving 584 00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:19,476 Speaker 2: back and forth from the airport in an armored car. 585 00:32:19,796 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 2: Because much of the country is controlled by criminal gangs. 586 00:32:22,876 --> 00:32:26,836 Speaker 2: And why does he keep going Because he discovered quite 587 00:32:26,876 --> 00:32:31,876 Speaker 2: by accident, that giving makes you feel like living. When 588 00:32:31,996 --> 00:32:35,476 Speaker 2: album heard about Matts Coogan's experiment, he told some of 589 00:32:35,476 --> 00:32:38,076 Speaker 2: the students at his orphanage about it, and they applied 590 00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:41,276 Speaker 2: answered the same essay questions as everyone else. 591 00:32:42,116 --> 00:32:47,116 Speaker 6: Our kids, with these new facilities have learned from the 592 00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:50,396 Speaker 6: very beginning that they are there to help one another, 593 00:32:51,276 --> 00:32:54,236 Speaker 6: and so we found it funny when in the application 594 00:32:54,396 --> 00:33:01,036 Speaker 6: process they ask what is your community involvement? And the 595 00:33:01,116 --> 00:33:04,556 Speaker 6: kids who filled out the application said, mister Mitch, you know, like, 596 00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:06,796 Speaker 6: what are we supposed to put? What does this mean 597 00:33:07,156 --> 00:33:10,036 Speaker 6: community involvement? And I said, well, what do you do 598 00:33:10,116 --> 00:33:13,516 Speaker 6: for others? And I said, let's talk about what you 599 00:33:13,596 --> 00:33:17,196 Speaker 6: do for others, And fifteen minutes later we were still 600 00:33:17,316 --> 00:33:21,236 Speaker 6: listing things because every day our kids take care of 601 00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:24,356 Speaker 6: the other kids. Our kids are there big brothers and 602 00:33:24,396 --> 00:33:27,796 Speaker 6: big sisters. They are their sources of carrying and food 603 00:33:27,956 --> 00:33:32,196 Speaker 6: and cleansing and washing and feeding and dressing and taking 604 00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:34,756 Speaker 6: to school and watching out for one another. And we 605 00:33:34,836 --> 00:33:37,436 Speaker 6: go out into the community and help with the streets. 606 00:33:37,796 --> 00:33:39,836 Speaker 6: Or when we used to be able to travel around, 607 00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:42,116 Speaker 6: our kids would go to a place where they had 608 00:33:42,196 --> 00:33:44,756 Speaker 6: premature babies were born and they would hold the babies 609 00:33:45,156 --> 00:33:47,876 Speaker 6: because nobody ever held these children and they had no 610 00:33:47,996 --> 00:33:51,916 Speaker 6: human contact. And our kids, most of whom have no parents, 611 00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:54,316 Speaker 6: come from places where in many cases we have to 612 00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:58,356 Speaker 6: invent birth certificates because we literally don't know where they 613 00:33:58,396 --> 00:34:01,276 Speaker 6: came from, how old they are, or who their parents are. 614 00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:04,796 Speaker 6: And these kids are holding other little babies to make 615 00:34:04,836 --> 00:34:09,596 Speaker 6: them feel welcome in the world. I have seen their 616 00:34:09,636 --> 00:34:12,556 Speaker 6: ability and their desire to give back, so when they 617 00:34:12,596 --> 00:34:16,076 Speaker 6: filled out that application, it was easy to say what 618 00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:16,996 Speaker 6: they've done for others. 619 00:34:17,676 --> 00:34:19,116 Speaker 1: All of our kids know. 620 00:34:19,596 --> 00:34:21,316 Speaker 6: They don't even have to agree to it, because it's 621 00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:23,676 Speaker 6: part of our DNA that when they're done with college 622 00:34:23,796 --> 00:34:25,716 Speaker 6: and we send all of our kids to college or 623 00:34:25,716 --> 00:34:28,556 Speaker 6: a graduate school. Our first one just got accepted to 624 00:34:28,596 --> 00:34:30,956 Speaker 6: medical school last month. 625 00:34:30,876 --> 00:34:32,516 Speaker 1: And we're going to have our first doctor. 626 00:34:33,076 --> 00:34:35,596 Speaker 6: So if you can be like Jewish dad, proud of 627 00:34:35,636 --> 00:34:42,356 Speaker 6: a Haitian doctor, there we are and we find money 628 00:34:42,356 --> 00:34:45,276 Speaker 6: to pay for it. But they know that the first 629 00:34:45,316 --> 00:34:47,516 Speaker 6: thing they do when they graduate is they come back 630 00:34:47,556 --> 00:34:50,916 Speaker 6: to the orphanage and they work for two years giving 631 00:34:50,956 --> 00:34:54,036 Speaker 6: back at the orphanage from the place that gave to them. 632 00:34:54,396 --> 00:34:58,996 Speaker 6: That is the concept, that is the concept of hope forward. 633 00:34:59,396 --> 00:35:01,676 Speaker 6: So our kids were living this concept. They hate to 634 00:35:01,716 --> 00:35:05,876 Speaker 6: break it to you, met, but it ain't original. Our 635 00:35:05,956 --> 00:35:08,316 Speaker 6: kids have been living this concept from the very beginning. 636 00:35:08,436 --> 00:35:11,276 Speaker 6: And speak of kids, I can't see so well, but 637 00:35:11,356 --> 00:35:13,276 Speaker 6: you may have noticed some of those pictures. 638 00:35:13,756 --> 00:35:16,956 Speaker 2: A little earlier on the screen behind album was a 639 00:35:16,996 --> 00:35:20,756 Speaker 2: series of photographs. There were two teen girls together, and 640 00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:24,236 Speaker 2: then a boy, and then another teenage boy flexing his muscles. 641 00:35:24,796 --> 00:35:30,716 Speaker 6: All of them last June graduated from our school and 642 00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:33,476 Speaker 6: what is always the best moment that we have at 643 00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:36,596 Speaker 6: our orphanage. And all of them now are right here 644 00:35:37,356 --> 00:35:47,556 Speaker 6: at Hope and they're in this room right here. They're 645 00:35:47,596 --> 00:35:52,436 Speaker 6: already gonna kill me for showing those photos, so I'm 646 00:35:52,436 --> 00:35:54,516 Speaker 6: not gonna make them come up and be acknowledged in 647 00:35:54,556 --> 00:35:58,476 Speaker 6: the front. But they're here, Samenza and Kiki and Teta 648 00:35:58,676 --> 00:36:02,476 Speaker 6: and JJ and if we have any luck, we'll have 649 00:36:02,516 --> 00:36:05,716 Speaker 6: two more or maybe even three more coming here next year. 650 00:36:06,676 --> 00:36:10,996 Speaker 2: So is Matt Skogan crazy? I don't think so. I 651 00:36:11,036 --> 00:36:14,516 Speaker 2: think everyone else is crazy for giving up on the 652 00:36:14,596 --> 00:36:18,116 Speaker 2: idea that giving makes you feel like living. I wish 653 00:36:18,156 --> 00:36:20,316 Speaker 2: you could have been there in that room listening to 654 00:36:20,356 --> 00:36:23,756 Speaker 2: Mitch Album and Madison and Matt Skogan and all the 655 00:36:23,796 --> 00:36:28,396 Speaker 2: other revolutionaries in Holland, Michigan who believe that gratitude and 656 00:36:28,476 --> 00:36:32,116 Speaker 2: generosity can help us rebuild what is broken. 657 00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:35,836 Speaker 6: So we're very proud to be associated with a program 658 00:36:35,956 --> 00:36:41,236 Speaker 6: that is embodying the very belief that we teach at 659 00:36:41,236 --> 00:36:44,276 Speaker 6: our orphanage to have faith eighty orphanage, that you are 660 00:36:44,316 --> 00:36:46,956 Speaker 6: responsible for one another in this world. 661 00:36:47,156 --> 00:36:48,876 Speaker 1: And from the. 662 00:36:48,836 --> 00:36:52,316 Speaker 6: Minute our kids arrive, they know that somebody has taken 663 00:36:52,396 --> 00:36:55,236 Speaker 6: responsibility for them, and from the moment they leave us, 664 00:36:55,276 --> 00:36:57,916 Speaker 6: they know that they have to take responsibility for somebody else. 665 00:36:58,716 --> 00:37:02,516 Speaker 6: That is a good circle and we're proud to be 666 00:37:02,556 --> 00:37:03,156 Speaker 6: a part of it. 667 00:37:07,636 --> 00:37:10,676 Speaker 2: This episode of Revision's History was produced by Bend, Daph 668 00:37:10,716 --> 00:37:15,276 Speaker 2: Haffrey and Leeman Gistoo. This is actually Lee's last show 669 00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:17,436 Speaker 2: with us, as she's moved on to the world of 670 00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:19,996 Speaker 2: audio fiction. If you want to hear one of Lee's 671 00:37:19,996 --> 00:37:25,236 Speaker 2: great accomplishments on Revisionist, check out our Little Mermaid series. Lee. 672 00:37:25,476 --> 00:37:29,076 Speaker 2: We will miss You. Jacob Smith, Kr Powell make up 673 00:37:29,076 --> 00:37:32,716 Speaker 2: the rest of our producing team. Our showrunner is Peter Clowney. 674 00:37:32,916 --> 00:37:36,556 Speaker 2: Original scoring by Luis Garra, fact checking by Kishelle Williams 675 00:37:36,676 --> 00:37:40,996 Speaker 2: and Tali Emlin, mastering by Flon Williams, and engineering by 676 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:45,276 Speaker 2: Nina Lawrence. Additional recording by Jonathan Fagel and Ben Ugama. 677 00:37:45,756 --> 00:37:49,716 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Matt Skogan, Jason Cash, Mary Remen Schneider, 678 00:37:49,996 --> 00:37:53,996 Speaker 2: and everyone who welcomed us at Hope College. I'm Malcolm Glaba.