1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound on Anny. 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: Damage to Europe's largest nuclear power plantins Apurizia could spell catastrophies. 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: You're playing with fire and something very very catastrophic could 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: take Bloomberg Sound on Politics, Policy and Perspective from DC's 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: Top Names. For the President to take this important information 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: down to his home in Florida is an outrage. It's 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: just not appair that everything was done quite appropriately. When 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: people ask me what I miss most about the White 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: House years, it is not Air Force one that I 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: talked about a thought. This Air Force One. Bloomberg Sound 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Nuclear Inspector's issue 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: a new warning in Ukraine. Welcome to the fastest hour 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: in politics, as you and monitors demand a security zone 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: now around what is Europe's biggest nuclear plant in the 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: middle of a war zone. Adamir Putin continues to target 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: with Shelling. Will talk about the risk level and the 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: prospect of nuclear diplomacy with an expert. Marianna Boujeran will 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: join us from the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfast Center. Later, 19 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: a document describing of foreign government's nuclear capabilities was among 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: the trove at Mara Lago. According to The Washington Post, 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: will have the latest from Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson 22 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: and will run it all past the panel. Bloomberg Politics 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: contributor Janie Chanzano, along with Lester months In of b 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: g R Group will join us. But first stark warning 25 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: coming from u N Secretary General Antonio Gutters about fighting 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: and specifically Russia's shelling near Europe's biggest nuclear plant in Ukraine, 27 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: of course, currently occupied by Russia. I remain gravely concerned 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: about the situation in and around the Zaporisia Plan, including 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: reports of recent showing. Let's tell it like it is. 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: Any damage, whether intentional or not, to Europe's largest nuclear 31 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: power plant in Zaporizia, or to any other nuclear facility 32 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: in Ukraine could spell catastrophe, not only for the immediate vicinity, 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: but for the region and beyond. Catastrophe the same word 34 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: used by Raphael Grossy, director General of the International Atomic 35 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: Energy Agency. You're playing with fire and something very, very 36 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: catastrophic could take place. Despite the fact that inspectors gained 37 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: access to the plant last week, un inspectors, as Bloomberg reports, 38 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: now they are demanding a halt to shelling and the 39 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: immediate establishment of a security zone around the plant. That's 40 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: all part of a fifty two page report detailing damage 41 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: to the facility. Again, Secretary General Terrorists, it's the first step. 42 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: Russian and Ukrainian forces must commit not to engage in 43 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: any military activity towards the plant site or from the 44 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: plant site, Zaporian Facility and the surround. This must not 45 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: be at or a platform for military operations. The potential 46 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: exists for a nuclear accident here. This is why we're 47 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: focusing on it today. And we're joined by an expert. 48 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: As I mentioned, Marianna, would Jaron Senior Research associate with 49 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: the Project on Managing the Atom at Harvard Kennedy School's 50 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: Belfort Center. Marianna, you're an expert on nuclear diplomacy. Will 51 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: the inspectors get the security they're asking for here? Well, 52 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: the inspectors are there to assess the safety and security 53 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: systems and protocols and the risks and dangers to the 54 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: safe operation of the plant. This is what they can do, 55 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: their nuclear experts, engineers, This is what they have accomplished 56 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: in this in this mission, as much as it was 57 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: possible under the circumstances, and they put that into the 58 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: into the report that was presented to the UN Security 59 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: Council yesterday and released to the public. This is pretty 60 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: much the mandate of this organization, sation of the i A. 61 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: This is um you know, an organization that's called to 62 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: promote uh safe and secure kind of peaceful uses of 63 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: nuclear energy. It's not a kind of organization that can 64 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: secure the perimeter of the plant. It doesn't have its 65 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: own military forces right um. And it can implement a 66 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: lot of the recommendations that it puts forth. It is 67 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: for the larger international community, maybe the UN and other 68 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: states to take uh, you know, direction from sure while 69 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: they ask for this though or demanded in the case 70 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: of these inspectors, can can the UN get parties to 71 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: the table to make that happen or is that a 72 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: lost cause right now as long as Russia occupies the plant. Well. 73 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: One of the most important recommendations in the report was 74 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: for the so called Nuclear Safety and Security Protection Zone. 75 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: This is, in other words, the demilitary rise zone that 76 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: Ukrainians and the UN Secretary General gutarish Uh and other parties, 77 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: the states and leaders have been calling for. Because of 78 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: course having military forces in any civilian nuclear facility, let 79 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: alone Europe's largest nuclear power plant, is absolutely insane. Um. 80 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: It's having that facility in the middle of a war 81 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: zone and being played somehow for whatever it is. The 82 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: nefarious game of the occupiers might be. UM. So, the 83 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: only real firm solution to the problem of the security 84 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: UH and safety of the part Asian nuclear puplant is 85 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: to get the Russian military out of their Now, how 86 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: do you do that? Though? Before you go on, do 87 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: you mean militarily they must be forced out? Or this 88 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: would be this would involve a negotiation to create that 89 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: security zone. I guess I'm asking how do you achieve that? 90 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: Because we've been asking the White House quite quite often 91 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: over the last week and a half. And the US 92 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: will not be part of creating a demilitarizone there. That's 93 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: going to have to happen with the people already on 94 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: the ground. Well, indeed, Joe, that is the big question 95 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: on the table. One of the ways to do this, 96 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,799 Speaker 1: of course, would be to deploy a UN peacekeeping force. UH. 97 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: To deploy UN peacekeeping force, there needs to be a 98 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: decision of you and Security Council and the Russian Federation 99 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: that one of the belligerents and a perpetrator of of 100 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: these security threats to put Asia has a veto power 101 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: on the Security Council. So we can be pretty sure 102 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: that that route is a dead end. Now. The NATO 103 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: allies and the United States, as you mentioned, have said 104 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: they will not deploy their own troops because that would 105 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: make them essentially uh parties to the conflict, that would 106 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: make them belligerents in this conflict. And we've heard time 107 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: and again even before this war had started that you 108 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: s will not put the boots on the ground. Neither 109 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: will would either other NATO allies. And there's a good 110 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: reason for it. Of NATO is a nuclear armed alliance. 111 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: United States as a nuclear superpower, and so is Russia, 112 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: and even you know, in the days of the Cold War, 113 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: those two nuclear superpowers have made efforts to avoid direct 114 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: military confrontation exactly for the fear of nuclear escalation. We 115 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: should note that two inspectors remain at the plant to 116 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: monitor developments there. Uh, Marianna, tell me what's going on that. 117 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: I can't figure out the motivations here. What's Russia actually doing? 118 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: Is this about gaining ground or is this about using 119 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: the plant for leverage, knowing that if there was a 120 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: huge meltdown, and I'm gonna asculator about what really could 121 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: go on here, how how badly this could get. This 122 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: would impact Russia just as much as Ukraine. So what's 123 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin doing at that plan? What Vladimir Putin UH 124 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: is doing with the plant UH is a question that 125 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: only Vladimir Putin can answer definitively. What we can deduce 126 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: from the situation is that perhaps there really is a 127 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: plan that the Russians have for disconnecting Zaporisia UH nuclear 128 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: power plant from the Ukrainian grid where seems to be 129 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: at this point, they've succeeded, and they're trying to do 130 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: it in such a way as to blame it on 131 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: the Ukrainians. And they can maintain UH denying right and 132 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: maintain some kind of deniability because there isn't anyone who 133 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: can ascertain who's shelling who this, even with the i 134 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,119 Speaker 1: A mission there, that's not their mandate, that's not their competents, 135 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: their nuclear engineers, their nuclear safety specialists, UH, they cannot 136 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: establish and be a credible voice in saying where does 137 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: the shelling come from? They're not ballistic specialists for instance. 138 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: So um, even with this mission on the ground, during 139 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: the travel of the mission, during the state of the mission, 140 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: even right now, two people remain on the ground, there's 141 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: still military activity around the plan. So Russia is not 142 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: stopping that because because it can continue, right and there's 143 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: no uh, there's nothing that anybody can do. Unfortunately, what 144 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: happens if the shelling continues? What what's the first thing 145 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: that goes wrong here? So it seems there's two scenarios. 146 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: One is that Russia really wants to use this as 147 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: a as a sort of weapon, right to to instigate 148 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: some kind of a major accident for whatever reason, you know, 149 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: intentionally target the reactor core or the spent fuel pools, 150 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,599 Speaker 1: which are you know, the they site, the places that 151 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: contain a large amount of nuclear material. UM. That would 152 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: be really the worst gay scenario. But I also think 153 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: that's the least likely scenario because as you mentioned earlier, 154 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: should there be a major accident, um, you know, and 155 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: and there's a release of radio activity into the atmosphere, 156 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: into the environment, it's really up to the weather from 157 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: that point on, and the weather could blow all of 158 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: this radio activity towards Russia as well, now you know, 159 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: of course, we can also say, does Putin really care? 160 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: The way he treats his own people and his own 161 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: soldiers has not exactly been indicative that, you know, he 162 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: cares about the well being of his people. But I 163 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: think that really would be, you know, a very dire scenario, 164 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: and probably the least likely. The more likely one is 165 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: that as as Director General Gross he said, they're playing 166 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: with fire, there's a game in which this plant is 167 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: is a pawn as it wears a two. Whether that 168 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: game is to disconnect the plan from the Ukrainian grid 169 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: and reconnected or connected to a Russian control grid to 170 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: power the occupied territories, or simply to deprive Ukraine of 171 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: this asset, right, I think that that alone would already 172 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: be enough, uh, you know, just to cause that damage, 173 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: to cause that hurt. But in doing so they want 174 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,599 Speaker 1: to blame it on the Ukrainians. And therefore you have 175 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: the shell and you have this military activity. So far, 176 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: it has not hit any of the really critical systems, 177 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: like the cooling systems that remain intact, and the emergency 178 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: diesel generators normally kick in when the offside power is lost, 179 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 1: so there really hasn't been a major nuclear event, and 180 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: there are still some safety systems and precautions and backup 181 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: systems that that that are there to to safeguard um 182 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 1: from from something major happening. But I just would like 183 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: to impress on you and the listeners that the reason 184 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: why this is truly playing with fire is that there's 185 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: a lot of unintentional and accidental stuff that accident. That's 186 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: exactly right, Marianna. I want to thank you for joining us. 187 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: I wish we had more time as we dance on 188 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: the edge of this nuclear power plant. Maria Bougern. I'm 189 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:32,599 Speaker 1: Joe Matthew the panels. Next, you're listening to Bloomberg. You 190 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. This is 191 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,599 Speaker 1: the first time in the sixty five year history of 192 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: the i a e A, the International Atomic Energy Agency, 193 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: that monitors had to cross an active battle front in 194 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: order to carry out their inspections, which may help to 195 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: put this all in perspective. We have never seen anything 196 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: quite like what is happening right now in southern Ukraine. 197 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: Membering of course that Ukraine is also home to Chernobyl. 198 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: Great reporting by Bloomberg's Jonathan Tyrone. If you want to 199 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: read more about this as we discuss things with the panel. 200 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: Jennie Schanzano is here Bloomberg Politics contributor Democratic Analysts along 201 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: today with Lester Months in principle at Government Relations from 202 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: b g R Group, former staff director of the Senate 203 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: Foreign Relations Committee. Lester, thanks for coming back, Jeannie. This 204 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: is a scary conversation and we're talking about it because 205 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: it's actually happening in real time, and it's very difficult 206 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: as Russia and Ukraine blame each other to understand exactly 207 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: what's going on the ground at any given moment and 208 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: what the actual risk level is here. But the danger 209 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: is great and when when people talk about game changers, 210 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: this would this would be one. It is, and you know, 211 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: it was fascinating listen to Mariana because I thought she 212 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: described beautifully at least what Ukrainian and United States officials 213 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: are saying is going on, and that is that Russia 214 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: is targeting this electricity going into the plant and coming 215 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 1: out of it. They want to redirect the hour and 216 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: this if we take a step back and look at 217 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: what happened with Nord's Dream one over the weekend and 218 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: now this we are in the midst of a fight 219 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,599 Speaker 1: over energy and energy war. Putin is engaged in energy blackmail, 220 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: and he is willing to risk something that could be 221 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: equivalent of what led to the Fukushima meltdown, which is 222 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: if a plant loses power. So when you said catastrophe, 223 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: that is exactly what the potential here is. But he 224 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: has laid out that he is going to break this 225 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: Western coalition and he's going to control energy in Europe 226 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: if if you know, at all, for all stakes, and 227 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: that's what we see him doing at this point. So 228 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: it's like the premise of a James Bond movie or something. Lester, 229 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: this is something that Specter might be up to here 230 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: for an actual world leader. In this case, Vladimir Putin 231 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: to calculate that level of risk potentially against his own people, 232 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: as being acceptable, I guess tells us a lot about 233 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: who we're dealing with. Lester. How do you gauge the 234 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: level of risk at this moment? I think it's it's 235 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: obviously very significant, and that's and that's exactly what Vladimir 236 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: Putin wants. I think this may even go beyond just 237 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: energy politics and energy leverage. It's possible that Putin is 238 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: using the nuclear power plant. Power plant, it's kind of 239 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: the ultimate hostage in this war. His troops are not 240 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: doing well on the ground. He's not achieving his goals. 241 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: He hasn't overthrowned Zelensky, he hasn't taken key if he 242 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: hasn't even taken Odessa. He's getting bogged down in the 243 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: south of Ukraine and may even now being pushed back 244 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: by Ukrainian forces. This is his as this may be 245 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: his ace in the whole, and that may be how 246 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: he looks at it to force at the end of 247 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: this uh an outcome that is at least somewhat acceptable 248 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: to him. Wow, so they've got the plant offline right now, Jennie, 249 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: The question is will the fighting continuing? Can the inspectors 250 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: get that security zone around the plant? Can they get 251 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: a motive safety here around the plant? Because the United 252 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: States cannot help. You've heard us ask any number of 253 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: White House officials on this program, and they're not going 254 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: there because it would require boots on the ground, if 255 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: not a no fly zone or whatever here. So you know, 256 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: how can Ukraine trust what Russia is seeing at any 257 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: given moment when it involves this property. They simply cannot 258 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: in the United States will not go in, uh NATO 259 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: allies will not go in, So they're not going to 260 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: get a security zone. They're probably not going to get 261 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: a security going at security zone. It's hard to imagine 262 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: how Ukraine could do that unilaterally and what that means 263 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: is whether it is by accident or on purpose, how 264 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: would we ever know. But what is potentially at stake 265 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: here is very, very real and it's imminent. This has 266 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: been six months they have controlled this plant, and their 267 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: plan is deepening. They have not moved away from what 268 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: is a an attempt and in a real effort to 269 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: control this power plan and to control all of energy 270 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: in Europe. And let's not forget we heard today Putin 271 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: is meeting with g face to face next week. At 272 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: the same time, Bloomberg is reporting and we're hearing this 273 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: from the U N Secretary, the Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, 274 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: that a Chinese invasion of Taiwan remains a distinct threat. 275 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: I mean, so you couple all these things and it 276 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: is a very precurious situation. Well, I'll tell you as 277 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: I as I look at the map here, Lester, you know, 278 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: you think about I think the way Mariana put it 279 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: was depends on the weather a lot of you know, 280 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: if there were in fact a catastrophe in this planet, 281 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: if there were a meltdown, it's right next to the 282 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: don Boss region, which of course borders Russia. What if 283 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: this went in the other direction, what if this was 284 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: a story for Romania. I don't know what's possible. I'm 285 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: I'm certainly I wouldn't want to begin to guess how 286 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: far the fallout could go. But when you consider other 287 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: NATO allies along the border of Ukrane, like Poland, Uh, 288 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: that triggers an Article five potentially, does it not? That 289 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: involves a nations that we don't want to have involved 290 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: in this war. Yeah, and I'm certainly no nuclear experts 291 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: or even a meteorologist, but uh, it's it's plausible that 292 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: there's there's a scenario where this is threatening for for 293 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: really for all of Europe, including Western Europe. Recall that 294 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: during Chernobyl, we saw radioactivity go as far away as Sweden, 295 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: I believe, So, yeah, this is this is real nuclear 296 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: blackmail that's happening right before our eyes. Nuclear blackmail and 297 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: the concept of nuclear diplomacy, as we discussed with Mariana, 298 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: to think that that's your career specialty. Genie is obviously 299 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: an important one right now because there are there any 300 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: back channels the US can use on a diplomatic level 301 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: to try to avoid trouble here, you know, I hope, 302 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: and I'm assuming we are trying as best we can 303 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: with our NATO allies to engage in that kind of thing. 304 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: But I think it's very difficult, and I would just 305 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: go back in the spring. Putin laid out his strategy 306 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: on this at that economic conference in St. Petersburg, and 307 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: it is he is stuck to that all this time. 308 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: Scary times. Discussing with Janie Schanzano and today Lester Munson 309 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: making up our panel on the Fastest Hour in Politics. 310 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Matthew in Washington will have the latest on 311 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: the documents. Next, this is Bloomberg broadcasting live from our 312 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: nation's capital, Bloomberg to New York, Bloomberg eleven Frio to Boston, 313 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg one, O six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine 314 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: six to the country, Serious XM Channel one, and around 315 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: the globe the Bloomberg Business app and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. 316 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew. The reports 317 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: of what was found at Mara A Lago are getting 318 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: slowly more specific today the Washington Posts as a document 319 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: describing a foreign government's military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities, 320 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: was among the trove taken from the House. We'll talk 321 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: about the significance with Boomberg's Billy House up next. It's 322 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: the headline people in the nation's capital woke up to 323 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: on the front page of the Washington Post. Files seized 324 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: at Mara l Ago include material on foreign nations nuclear capabilities. 325 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: Certainly jumps off the page after well. Donald Trump himself 326 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: of course tipped this off to the search and then 327 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: started posting not soon after, or I should say soon 328 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: after about the fact that there were no nuclear documents 329 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: in there, because there had been some reporting about this. 330 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: Now this gets specific. Only the President, some members of 331 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: his cabinet or a near cabinet level official could authorize 332 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: other government officials to know details of these special access programs. 333 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: This is how high level this is. People familiar with 334 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: the search speaking not a shocker on condition of anonymity, 335 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: Billy Houses with us Bloomberg Legal reporter to talk a 336 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: little bit more about this. Billy, thanks for coming in 337 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: here that the level of significance is great. We have 338 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: no idea what was in most of these boxes and 339 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: on most of these documents, So any filling in of 340 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: the blanks is interesting. And boy, this is the big stuff. 341 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: Can you put that in perspective for us? Well, it 342 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: is big stuff. In fact, that Trump himself had denounced 343 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: such earlier reporting that there was nuclear related documents, uh, 344 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 1: calling it a sleazy hoax and that sort of thing. 345 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: But now according to the Post reporting, we find that 346 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: it is true that there were some top secret nuclear 347 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: documents regarding a foreign country and its capabilities and defense capabilities, uh, 348 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: that Trump had stashed among those boxes that is a 349 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: state in Florida. The conversation about having a special Master 350 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: takes on new significance as well when you start realizing 351 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: the level of security here around these documents. There are 352 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: not a lot of people who have a clearance to 353 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: start sifting through these boxes. Billy, how do they do that? 354 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: That's correct? There there are people, obviously, we are a 355 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: lot of there with the top secret security clearance. But 356 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: this is above top secret security clearance, and so what 357 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: you need is somebody that is willing to take on 358 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: the role of deciding for helping the court decide what 359 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: is privileged to either the lawyer client privilege or executive 360 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: privilege material uh in this top secret uh you know, 361 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: uh genre and then try to help sort for the judge. 362 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: What you know that that the period of legal arguments 363 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: that both the d o J and the and the 364 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: Trump's team are we're gonna make about how they sort 365 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: out those legally. Uh. There are very few people that 366 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: would have the qualifications for that, and probably even fewer 367 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: that would want to do it. I don't know how 368 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: exactly you just phrase that this is a higher level 369 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: of classification than top secret. Can you explain what that 370 00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: means to our listeners? There is obviously various levels. Uh, 371 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: But the o J said some of the materials are 372 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: labeled with the highest classification something called T S s 373 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: C I topic sense of time, car car. But that 374 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: is that is not what about one point? There are 375 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: about one million people that have some sort of TOPSIC clearances, 376 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: but a lot fewer have that higher level. Those are 377 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: the type of people that deal with those issues and 378 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: maybe a few you know pis a court for intelligence 379 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: court judges might have that. So this isn't a this 380 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: isn't about storage, Billy, This isn't about whether there was 381 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: a second lock on the door which room at mar Lago. 382 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: These should never have left Washington, d C. These these 383 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: are property of the government. No matter what Donald Trump 384 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: is suggesting about the method in which his home was searched, 385 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: this stuff has to come back to d C. Absolutely. 386 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: I mean it should have never left d C. I 387 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: don't know who if he We don't think the president 388 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: former president actually picked up these boxes and carried him 389 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: themselves to his a stage. So that means they were 390 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: actually in the hands of probably a lot of people 391 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: or some people that didn't have any kind of authority 392 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: to have it. Beyond that, Uh, some of the stuff 393 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: appears could be missing from those boxes. We don't know. 394 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: That's sort of the thing that is going to be 395 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: sorted out over the next months and even perhaps longer. 396 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: But we don't. You know, this is all very troubling obviously, Billy. 397 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: A great story. Uh on the terminal right now that 398 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: you wrote up. You spoke with Ken Feinberg, who was 399 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: a special Master and uh, some folks might know him. 400 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: Actually he was involved in the nine eleven terror attacks. 401 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: The compensation the mortgage crisis, as you point out the 402 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: seven thirty seven Max disasters. He certainly spent some time 403 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: in front of the news media. What did he tell 404 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: you about finding the right person? Well, he said, you 405 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: not only have to find some might qualified that meaning 406 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: with all the security clearance is required, but also somebody 407 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: that's maybe not going to want the Justice Department bark 408 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: against them, for the Justice Department doesn't think this Special 409 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: Master review is even needed. And ultimately, you know, Trump 410 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: will go after as he always does, whoever makes any 411 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: decision in this contrary to what he wants. And and 412 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: so this person, no matter what it's or her reputation, 413 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: is going to be attacked by Trump more than likely. 414 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: How long will it take for them to be chosen 415 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: and appointed? Well, the judge Island her Cannon in Florida 416 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: is asked for both sides Trump and the Just Trump 417 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: submit their candidates by Friday. Uh, you know, I don't 418 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: expect an early resolution on an agreement of by the 419 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: two sides by Ken Feinberg is an interesting one to 420 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: speak with here. I presume he's not going to be 421 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: among those who are interviewed for the job because of me, 422 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: he doesn't have those security clearances necessary, but he certainly 423 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: would be a fascinating candidate if he did well, that's 424 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: for sure. Billy, thanks for joining us as always, Billy House, 425 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: who I appointed to a legal department, actually Congress reporter 426 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: is what I meant to say here on Bloomberg Sound On. 427 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: I mean, it's the fastest hour in politics. Sometimes this happens, 428 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: joining you from the nation's capital with storm clouds on 429 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: the horizon, and I mean that literally. Actually in this case, 430 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: as the kids get back to school, the traffic is 431 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: getting a little bit heavier because the members are also 432 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: coming back. So our first couple of uh Senate news 433 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: conferences today. The House will be back next week. Fascinating 434 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: conversation with Bill Barr again about this whole story as well. 435 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: Today the former Attorney General making it clear that he 436 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: thinks the d o J is close to having what 437 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: it needs to make an indictment. Here's Bill Barr on Fox. 438 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: There are two questions. Will the government be able to 439 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: make out a technical case? Will they have evidence by 440 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: which that they could indict somebody on including Ham and 441 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: I that's the first question, and I think they're getting 442 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: very close to that point, frankly, but I think at 443 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: the end of the day, there's another question is do 444 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: you and dit a former president? What will that do 445 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: to the country, What kind of precedent will that set? Well, 446 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: the people really understand that this is not, you know, 447 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: failing to return a library book, that this was serious, 448 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: and that's what we're going to discuss next as we 449 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: reassemble the panel. Jeannie Chanzino, of course coming back Bloomberg 450 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: Politics contributor, joined today by Lester months In of b 451 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: g R Group. We'll check traffic and markets for you 452 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: on the way as well. Joe Matthew in Washington. This 453 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: he's Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Sound On with Joe 454 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 1: Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. As lawmakers returned to the nation's capital. Hey, 455 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: it's been a while. We have been waiting for you. 456 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna miss the parking though, and to tell you, 457 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: the traffic was just awful this morning getting into town. 458 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: I won't dwell on that, but what you can tell 459 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: when they're back. And this is just the Senate so far. Democrats, 460 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: of course, quick to gather in front of microphones to 461 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: condemn former President Trump and the discovery of documents Republicans 462 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: not so much. Senator Josh Holly let him have it, 463 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: even referring to Donald Trump, by the way, is the 464 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: likely nominee, which I found interesting, as many suspect Holly 465 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: will run the second he hears that there's an opening, 466 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: should there be one. He wasn't having any of this, 467 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: and condemned the Justice Department. The fact that having done 468 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: all of that, d J would go into court and 469 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: with a straight face and say, oh, we don't need 470 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: anybody to review it. We've reviewed it. Take take our 471 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: work for it. We've reviewed it and we think it's okay. 472 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: Is unbelievable. So I think the judge appointing a special 473 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: master is the This is that is standard in these 474 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,959 Speaker 1: kind of cases, to have somebody look and separate out 475 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: what's privileged and not privileged. And I certainly don't trust 476 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: DJ to do it, don't trust the Department of Justice 477 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: to do it. Senator Pat Toomey, who is no Josh Holly, 478 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: typically of more moderate tone here smells something fishy as well. 479 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: It does not appear that everything was done quite appropriately, 480 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: But I have not really uh delved into the details 481 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: of us. John Kennedy, Republican from Louisiana. Always good for 482 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: a line, and he wasn't really joking around a day 483 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: talking about trusts in our institutions. I'm worried that all 484 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: of this will undermine people's confidence in the FBI and 485 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: the Department of Justice, both in terms of the people 486 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: there and and the two organizations as institutions. And I 487 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: think that's unfortunate, which I don't know is also you know, 488 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: it's kind of a couple of weeks late. We've been 489 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: hearing defund the FBI since the day they showed up 490 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: at mar A Lago. Let's reassemble the panel. Bloomberg Politics 491 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: contributor Jeannie Sanzano is here today along with Lester monthson 492 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: of b g R Group. Lester, this is an interesting 493 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: conversation here because people are assuminging a lot on both sides. 494 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: Other than this report today from the Washington Post. The 495 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: government certainly hasn't told us what documents. We saw the 496 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: cover pages on them, but we don't know exactly what 497 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: they have. Republicans don't either. This is a dangerous time 498 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: to start taking hard positions on this, isn't it? It 499 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: really is? And this this there's clearly a dilemma for 500 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: law enforcements. They've got a set of facts that they're 501 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: dealing with, and we don't know all of them that 502 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: look very bad for the former president. On the other hand, 503 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: he's the former president and he is uh, for better 504 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: or worse, the leader kind of in in waiting of 505 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: of a party out of power. Uh. And so they've 506 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: got to weigh the facts as they see them with 507 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: the likely political implications of inviting him. It's not it's 508 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: not unlike what we saw in Team. Is not a 509 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: perfect comparison at all, But this is is a real 510 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: tough question for for d J M. Guy. There's no doubt. 511 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: As you heard Jeannie from Bill Barr a couple of 512 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: minutes ago, he says, there are two questions here. One 513 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: is do they have what they need to make the 514 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: case to indict He says, yeah, and they're going to 515 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: probably be there pretty soon. Uh. He thinks they're just 516 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: about done. But then the second question is do you 517 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: do this to a to a former president. If I 518 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: had kept playing that interview for you, you would have 519 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: heard him say no. He does not think, despite his 520 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: strident remarks recently about this case, that we should be 521 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: indicting a former president that's what this is going to 522 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: come down to. These are the two questions. Yeah, what 523 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: the Washington Post reported last night has made it increasingly clear. 524 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: Most legal experts say that the Department of Justice is 525 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: going to have a difficult time not bringing criminal charges. 526 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: And that is going to raise the specter that you 527 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: and Lester were just talking about, do you indicte a 528 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: former president? Because the reality is is if this wasn't 529 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: a former president, he would be convicted. This is an 530 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: incredibly obvious case. And that's the consensus. Don't you know, 531 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: worry about liberal or democratic or even moderate legal experts. 532 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: You're talking about, you know, pretty conservative legal experts like 533 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: Bill Barr. You simply cannot have this material. And the fact, 534 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: even if he had them declassified, and that's a big if, 535 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: he still couldn't have them in his possession in moral lago. 536 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: So it's starting to be an open and shut case. 537 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: And that raises this question, putting all that aside, do 538 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: you decide not to indict because he's a former president? 539 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's a very difficult question, not unlike 540 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: the one President Ford encountered, and there's not going to 541 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: be any easy answer to that. Lester, you spend time 542 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: as staff director of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. You 543 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: understand intimately the importance of these documents. Are you surprised 544 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: that more Republicans, specifically in the Senate are not standing 545 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: up to condemn this or at least say, hey, hold 546 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: on here, let's or of judgment. This doesn't look right. Yeah, 547 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: I you know, frankly, I'd like to see a lot 548 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: more nuance from these members where they can. It's fine 549 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: if they want to advance the political judgment that you 550 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: don't invite invite a former president, even one of their party, 551 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: but they should be clear that on the facts, on 552 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,479 Speaker 1: the details of this case, this is not acceptable behavior. 553 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: You don't just take classified material and leave it lyne 554 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: around a social club. That's not something that should be 555 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: done under any circumstances. Well, I'll tell you what, Genie, 556 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: it's going to be a slow drip like this is, 557 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, one brick after another here, and it could 558 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: be some time before we know what this story is 559 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: all about. Certainly, as I think we've established on this program, 560 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: is going to have to be after the mid terms 561 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: if this unspoken sixty day rule UH is in place. 562 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: But if Bill Barr thinks they're close to a case. 563 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that would indicate we could actually have at 564 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: least an idea whether there's going to be an indictment 565 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: or not by the beginning of next year. That leaves 566 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: that leaves two years of campaigning for president. Yeah, and 567 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: unlike the mid term where Donald Trump is not on 568 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: the ballot, although to Lester's point, he's clearly the head 569 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: of this party and he's incredibly important, you know, political figure. 570 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: He may very well be on the ballot for the 571 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: presidential election, which raises a whole another host of questions, 572 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: And of course the d J has so many questions 573 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: to contend with do they prosecute based on this information 574 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: because that might mean he and his attorneys would get 575 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: access to this information, and it's highly classified, so so 576 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: many issues for them to contend with. And as you 577 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: were talking about with Billy previously, of course, how do 578 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: you even get a special master with the clearance and 579 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: the ability and the interest in reviewing this? So you know, 580 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a while before we 581 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: know what they do. But you know, again, if you 582 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: or I had these things, we would be in jail. 583 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: There would be no question. The issue here is it's 584 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: a former president. Lester, what's your take on the special Master? 585 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: Do we ever get that far as the d O 586 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: J going to appeal? I don't know. Um, it's this, 587 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 1: This is a low key like intervention by the former president, 588 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: kind of showing his character. He just seems to produce 589 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: chaos wherever he goes, to the delight of his fans 590 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: and some of his voters. I suppose he's playing around, 591 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: is what you're saying. Yeah, and he's and he's Um, 592 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, he's going to work every angle and try 593 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: to use all of this to his advantage. And let's 594 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 1: be clear about this show. This helps Trump. His his 595 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: standing in the party has improved. The people who are 596 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: Trump skeptics or never trumpers even are saying, well, gosh, 597 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be you shouldn't be doing this to a 598 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: former president kind of rallying to him. Uh, it is 599 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: making him more likely to be the nominee than otherwise. 600 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: So how long can that go on for? Though? I mean, 601 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: if there's an indictment, how much will we would we 602 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: learn at that point, Lester about what was taken? Uh, 603 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: it's a great it's a great question. We don't know 604 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: how he could be indicted but not tried before an 605 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: election in two years. These things drag out for a 606 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: very long time unless he's in some rocket dockets somewhere, uh, 607 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: and they go to trial very quickly. He's likely to 608 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: be indicted but not have not put on trial yet 609 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 1: while he's a candidate for president. That's not an improbable scenario. 610 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: And that's perfectly legal. Genie, Right, you can run for 611 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: president if you're under indictment. You haven't man convicted of anything. 612 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: You absolutely can and can you imagine what that be like? Yeah, 613 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: and I just want to follow up, But Lester's right, 614 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: this helps Donald Trump. This also helps the Democrats in 615 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: the mid term because again, the more Trump, the better 616 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: for the Democrats in the minterm. It does not help 617 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: Republicans like Mitch McConnell and others who want desperately to 618 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: take the Senate and you know, obviously the House I 619 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: think still goes Republican. But this is a problem for 620 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: many Republicans across the country. But he's right. In these primaries, 621 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: as we saw in Massachusetts last night, Trump has been incredibly, 622 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: incredibly popular. Great insights today from Genie and of course 623 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: Lester Monthson. Thank you. Both Jennie Schanzano, Bloomberg Politics contributor 624 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: with us here on sound On. My God. We've got 625 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: a lot to learn still, that's why you have to 626 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: be with us every night and subscribe to the podcast 627 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Sound On wherever you get your podcasts. Did you hear? 628 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: By the way, big reunion today with some comedy at 629 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 1: the White House? President and Dr Biden, Vice President Harris 630 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: and Second Gentleman m Hoff. Thank you so much for 631 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: your hospitality there it is. Thanks for letting us invite 632 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: a few friends to the White House. We will try 633 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: not to tear up the place. The Obama is back 634 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: in the house. Indeed, Barack Obama and former First Lady 635 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: Michelle Obama they had the big portraits unveiling today at 636 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 1: the White House. Very nice because it's never happened during 637 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: the Trump administration. A photo balistic painting by Robert McCourty. 638 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: It goes to Barack Obama. What I love about Robert's 639 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: work is that he paints people exactly the way they are, 640 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: for better or worse. He captures every wrinkle on your face, 641 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: that recrease in your shirt. You'll note that he refused 642 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: to hide any of my gray hairs, refuse my request 643 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: to make my ears smaller. He didn't even put him 644 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: in a tan suit either. Of course, Michelle got her 645 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 1: portrait as well, the former President of the United States 646 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: saying in the East Room that she is fine. All right, 647 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: we'll meet you back here tomorrow with the latest from Washington. 648 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: You can count on us. I'm Joe Matthew This he's Bloomberg.